Krishnamurti Subtitles
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OJ77D2 - 「经验」和「思想」的关系
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| 0:51 Perhaps there are some new people who have come this morning. So, we are having a dialogue. The word ‘dialogue’ means putting into words one’s thought. And, as two friendly people talking over together with their problems, perhaps we could this morning discuss or have a dialogue, conversation, in that spirit, that we are, together, examining, exploring, investigating our problems. This is not a group therapy. Group therapy implies exposing one’s own dirty laundry to another, and I don’t think that’s worth it. Whereas, if we could examine deeply our problems, perhaps we could resolve them this morning and not carry them over year after year, till we die. So, what shall we talk over, together? | 0:51 也许今天早上有一些新人来到了这里。 接下来，我们将会进行一场对话。 「对话」这个词的意思是 将自己的思想用语言文字表达出来。 而就像两个友好的人 在一起讨论他们的问题一样， 今天早上我们或许也可以 本着这种精神来讨论 或者进行一场对话、交谈。 那就是我们正在一起检视、探索 和研究我们的问题。 这并不是一次「团体心理治疗」。 团体心理治疗意味着 要将自己的隐私丑事暴露给他人， 而我认为这并不值得。 然而，如果我们可以深刻地检视一下我们的问题， 那么今天早上我们或许就能够解决它们， 而不用年复一年地携带着它们直到我们死去。 好了，我们要一起来讨论些什么呢？ |
| 2:44 Questioner: Krishnaji, I would like to ask you: will thought and experiencing always remain, or appear to be as opposites, or is there an understanding which can bridge this gap together? | 2:44 问：克里希那吉， 我想要问你： 「思想」和「经验」是不是总是对立的， 或者看起来是对立的， 还是说存在一种「了解」 可以弥合这两者之间的鸿沟？ |
| 3:02 K: Yes, sir. | 3:02 克：好的，先生。 |
| 3:04 Q: I’d like to… if we could talk about violence and cruelty in human beings and what is the relationship between that and violence and cruelty in the animal kingdom, and where does that relationship end, in terms of inheritance? | 3:04 问：我想要…… 我们是否可以谈一下存在于人类身上的「暴力」 和「残忍」， 以及它们和动物界的「暴力」与「残忍」 有什么关系？ 以及从「遗传」的角度来讲， 这种关系结束终止于何处？ |
| 3:26 K: I don’t quite follow your question, sir. | 3:26 克：我不是很理解你的问题，先生。 |
| 3:30 Q: I am asking what is the… is there a relationship between cruelty in human beings, violence in human beings and violence in animals, and where does that relationship end between the violence? | 3:30 问：我在问那种关系是什么 人类身上的残忍， 人类身上的暴力和动物身上的暴力 是否存在某种关系， 这两种暴力的关系又结束终止于何处？ |
| 3:58 K: The first question was: is thought and experience, are they different, and can they be brought together? And the other question is, what is the relationship between human beings and animals, who are both of them violent. Any other? | 3:58 克：第一个问题就是：「思想」和「经验」， 它们是不同的吗？ 它们可以融合在一起吗？ 而另一个问题就是： 人类和动物之间有什么关系 ——他们两者都是暴力的。 还有其他的吗？ |
| 4:33 Q: Yes. I was wondering, we ended our conversation last Tuesday on a particular point, and that you mentioned that after forty five minutes of our discussions that if, say, between two loved ones, if one did not understand after that period of time there would be no relationship or the love between the loved one didn’t exist, and I just wondered if you would, somewhat, go over that, in that I really didn’t, personally, I don’t agree with that, in the sense that, say, in your descriptions of a certain particular point in time, as you have talked about the observer and the thing to be observed, being one. 5:30 When you describe a particular point, maybe your discussions are at that particular level, if I may use word ‘level,’ whereas, say, the audience here, and trying to understand your philosophies and so forth, we may not necessarily be at a level... | 4:33 问：有。我感到有一些诧异， 上周二的时候，我们在某一个时刻 结束了我们的谈话， 而你提到说：在经过了四十五分钟的讨论以后， 比如说，两个相爱的人之间， 如果在经过了这么长一段时间后， 一个人还是不理解的话， 那么这两个相爱之人就不存在关系了， 或者他们俩之间并不存在爱， 而我只是想知道你能否 稍微复查一下这种观点， 我真的无法……就我个人而言， 我并不同意它， 我的意思是，比方说， 你描述了 时间中的某个特定的时刻， 你谈论了观察者 和他所观察的事物， 你说他们两是同一个东西。 5:30 当你描述了某个特定的时刻， 也许你的讨论是处于那个特定的层次的 ——如果我可以使用“层次”这个词的话， 然而，比如说，这里的听众， 他们试图了解你的哲学等等， 而我们或许并不一定处于那个层次中 |
| 5:52 K: I think I understand your question, sir. | 5:52 克：我想我明白你的问题了，先生。 |
| 5:54 Q: And, one other thing – just an observation – it seems to me that, during the course of people asking questions and so forth, if the question is somewhat irrelevant to what’s going on in your discussions. You seemed to get, at a certain point, frustrated and I just wondered, you know, in your talks about infinite patience, in your books and so forth, there seems to be a paradox or a contradiction there. 6:36 That’s just an observation. In a sense, that the people here said they didn’t really understand a lot of what we said on Tuesday, and they were asking questions. Those questions are asked out of misunderstanding and so it may not be to the point for you to tell them, maybe, they really don’t understand. You know, you just seemed to get frustrated. | 5:54 问：然后还有另外一件事 ——它只是我的观察—— 在我看来， 在人们问问题等等的过程中， 如果他们的问题稍微 和你正在讨论的东西有点不相干。 在某个时刻，你似乎就会变得懊恼沮丧， 我只是有点奇怪，你知道， 你曾经谈论过“无限的耐心”， 在你的著作中，等等（谈论过它）， 所以这里看起来有点悖论或矛盾。 6:36 这只是我的观察。 我的意思是，这里的人说 他们真的不理解 我们在周二所讲的很多东西， 然后他们问了问题。 他们出于误解而询问了这些问题， 所以它可能没有达到 让你去回答他们的程度， 但他们也许是真的不理解。 你瞧，但你看起来就变得很懊恼沮丧了。 |
| 7:07 K: Sir, I don’t quite follow your questions which you have asked. I don’t quite... | 7:07 克：先生，我不是很明白 你刚才问的问题。我不太 |
| 7:21 Q: I just wondered if you were... (inaudible) | 7:21 问：我只是想知道你是不是…… （听不清） |
| 7:24 K: Why I’m frustrated? Beg your pardon? | 7:24 克：为什么我会懊恼沮丧？ 请你再说一遍好吧？ |
| 7:33 Q: Yeah, why you are frustrated by the questions that are asked…? | 7:33 问：是的，为什么你会因为人们所问的问题 而感到懊恼沮丧……？ |
| 7:38 K: All right, sir. Why are you frustrated by the questions asked by the audience? What else are the questions, sir? | 7:38 克：好吧，先生。 为什么你会因为听众所问的问题 而感到懊恼沮丧？ 还有其他什么问题吗，先生？ |
| 7:48 Q: If one really cares about another, what does that imply? | 7:48 问：当一个人真的关心在乎对方， 这意味着什么？ |
| 7:53 K: If one cares for another, what does that imply? | 7:53 克：如果一个人关心在乎对方， 这意味着什么？ |
| 8:01 Q: Could we talk about relationship? | 8:01 问：我们能否谈论一下「关系」？ |
| 8:04 K: Could we talk about relationship? | 8:04 克：我们能否谈论一下「关系」？ |
| 8:09 Q: Krishnaji, just to repeat what I asked, it was thought and experiencing. | 8:09 问：克里希那吉，我只是重复一下 我之前问的问题， 那就是关于“思想和经验”的问题。 |
| 8:15 K: Thought and experiencing, I understand, sir. | 8:15 克：思想和经验，我知道了，先生。 |
| 8:22 Q: Can you explain how we can have a relationship without fear and jealousy? | 8:22 问：你能否解释一下我们如何才能拥有一种 没有恐惧和嫉妒的关系？ |
| 8:29 K: Can we have relationship with another without jealousies, fears and anxieties, and all the miseries that come in relationship? | 8:29 克：我们能否与别人拥有这样一种关系： 这种关系中没有嫉妒、恐惧、焦虑， 以及所有那些关系中令人痛苦的事物？ |
| 8:42 Q: Why do we get hurt? | 8:42 问：为什么我们会受到伤害？ |
| 8:43 Q: Is there something to be learnt from the experience of having been in a place before? Because I have experienced dejà vu, when you feel as if you have been through a particular action before, even though now in the present it is all new experience, you feel as if you have been there before. Is there something to be learned from that? | 8:43 问：我们是否可以从那种 “感觉自己曾经在这里过”的经验中 学到些什么？ 因为我曾经历过「既视感」， 那时你会感觉自己好像曾经 经历过当前这个特定的行为， 尽管此刻它是一种全新的经验， 但你会觉得自己曾经在那里过。 我们可以从中学到些什么吗？ |
| 9:06 K: Is there something to be learnt from... | 9:06 克：我们可以学到什么东西吗，从 |
| 9:12 Q: …dejà vu. | 9:12 问：……从「既视感」中。 |
| 9:16 Q: From the feeling of having been here before. | 9:16 问：从那种“以前曾经在这里过”的感觉中。 |
| 9:19 K:.learnt from having been here before, the feeling of it? | 9:19 可：从那种“以前曾经在这里过”…… 从那种感觉中学习？ |
| 9:29 Q: Sir, could we talk over the question of the ‘me’? | 9:29 问：先生，我们能否来讨论一下 关于「我」的问题？ |
| 9:34 K: Could we talk over the question of ‘me’? That’s enough. Let’s start. | 9:34 克：我们能否来讨论一下 关于「我」的问题？ 够了够了。让我们开始吧。 |
| 9:45 First of all, to answer that question, I’m afraid I don’t feel frustrated. Perhaps you think I should, but I am not frustrated. So, let us drop that question. Should we discuss relationship, what is the significance of relationship, the depth of relationship? Should we discuss that or shall we go into this question of thought? What is the relationship of thought to experiencing, and what is experiencing without thought? Should we go into that? | 9:45 首先，我来回答下那个问题， 那就是：我恐怕我并没有感到什么懊恼沮丧。 或许你觉得我懊恼沮丧了， 但我并没有。 所以让我们先丢掉这个问题。 我们可以来讨论下「关系」吗， 讨论下关系的意义， 关系的深层含义？ 我们要讨论这个吗，还是说我们应该来 探讨一下关于「思想」的问题？ 「思想」和「经验」有什么关系， 以及什么是「没有思想的经验」？ 我们可以来探讨一下它们吗？ 问：可以。 |
| 10:44 Q: Yes. | 10:44 克：噢，你们想要探讨经验 |
| 10:46 K: Oh. You want to go into the question of experiencing and the relation to thought? The relationship of experiencing and thought. All right. Do you want to go into it very deeply? | 10:46 以及它和思想的关系？ 经验和思想的关系。好的。 |
| 11:06 Q: Yes. | 11:06 你们想要非常深入地探究它吗？ 问：是的。 |
| 11:10 K: First of all, let’s find out together – and I mean together, we’re both of us exploring, we are both of us trying to understand what we are talking about. We are using words which we both understand. I am not speaking in Italian or Russian, but in English. So, together we are going to examine this very complex problem. First of all, what is thinking? What does one mean by the word ‘thinking’? How does thinking arise? What is the significance of thinking? 12:16 What is the source of all thought? All thought – both scientific, religious, the thought of every day, the business thought. So, we are discussing, talking over together this question of thought. Why has thought played such extraordinary part in human life? Does thought exist without the word? And is the word thought? Please, all these are implied in this question. So, please, if you will kindly go together in this. | 11:10 克：首先，让我们一起去搞清楚 ——我的意思是「一起」， 我们双方都去探索， 我们双方都努力去了解 我们正在谈论的东西。 我们正在使用我们双方都懂的语言。 我并没有在说意大利语或俄语， 而是在说英语。 所以，我们要一起去检视 这个非常复杂的问题。 首先，什么是「思考」？ 我们所谓的「思考」这个词， 它是什么意思？ 「思考」是如何出现的？ 「思考」的意义是什么？ 12:16 所有各种思想的源头是什么？ 所有的思想——不管是科学思想、宗教思想、 日常生活中的思想，还是商业思想。 所以我们正在一起讨论和探讨 这个关于「思想」的问题。 为什么思想会在人类生活中 扮演如此非凡重要的角色？ 没有语言文字，思想还会存在吗？ 语言文字是不是就是思想？ 请注意，所有这些东西都必然包含在这个问题中。 所以，拜托了，恳请你们一起来进入它。 |
| 13:29 So, first we will begin by asking, is there a thinking without word? Is there a thinking without a symbol, an image, a picture? You understand my question? Or the word is the thought? Or does thought bring the word into action? You see, it’s a very complex question this. So, we are going to go into this very, very slowly and find out the whole nature and the structure – structure of thought. That’s what you want, don’t you? | 13:29 现在，在开始的时候，我们首先要问： 是否存在一种没有语言文字的思考？ 是否存在一种没有符号、意象和画面的思考？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 还是说语言文字就是思想？ 或者说，是思想“激活”了语言文字？ 你瞧，这是一个非常复杂的问题。 所以我们要非常慢地、慢慢地来探讨它， 从而去发现思想的全部本质和结构 ——思想的结构。 这就是你们想要的，对吧？ 问：对。 |
| 14:33 Q: Yes. | 14:33 克：至少你们是想要讨论这个的， |
| 14:35 K: At least, you want to discuss that, and we’II come to relationship, presently. So, when one asks you what is thinking, what is your response to that word? If you observe what is going on, that is, the speaker asks you a question, what is thinking? Your immediate reaction, if you’re aware of it, is to search out in your memory the correct answer. Either the accumulated memory, through books, the information that you have received by reading psychological books and so on. 15:50 So, your immediate response to that question, which is, what is thinking? – your brain is tremendously active, looking, asking, searching. Right? And what do you find? May I put it this way? When one is asked a familiar question: what’s your name, where do you live, and so on, the response is immediate. Why? | 14:35 所以我们很快就会来谈论「关系」。 现在，当一个人问你：什么是「思考」， 你对这个词的反应是什么？ 如果你观察一下正在发生的事情， 即，演讲者问了你一个问题：什么是思考？ 而你立即的反应 ——如果你对此有所觉察—— 就是在你的记忆中寻找正确的答案。 要么是那些通过书本积累起来的记忆， 那些你所接收到的信息 ——你通过阅读心理学书籍等等得到了这些信息。 15:50 所以，你对于这个问题 ——即“什么是思考”——立即的反应就是： 你的大脑会变得异常活跃， 它会去观察、询问和寻找。 对吧？ 然后你发现了什么？ 让我这么来说吧？ 当有人问了你一个熟悉的问题： 你叫什么名字，你住在哪里，等等， 你立即就会有反应。为什么？ |
| 16:44 Q: Because the process of thinking is just looking up the thought in your memory bank. You look it up... | 16:44 问：因为思考过程会在 你的“记忆库”中查找思想。 你会查找它 |
| 16:51 K: Yes, sir, but I have asked a question – just a minute, sir. I have asked a question, which is, I ask you, what is your name? Your response is immediate. Right? I’m asking you why is it so immediate? | 16:51 克：是的，先生，但我已经问了一个问题 ——稍微等一下，先生。 我已经问了一个问题，那就是， 我问你：你叫什么名字？ 你立即就会有反应。 对吧？ 而我在问你：为什么这种反应会如此快速直接？ 问：因为你知道答案。 |
| 17:05 Q: Because you know it. | 17:05 克：不要回答，去探究 |
| 17:07 K: Don’t answer, look into... First, find out, sir. | 17:07 首先去把它搞清楚，先生。 |
| 17:13 Q: I’m more concerned with blabbing than investigating. It’s right there. | 17:13 问：我更关心你说出答案， 而不是自己去探究。仅此而已。 |
| 17:17 K: No, sir. I am asking, I ask your name, and your reply very quickly. Why? I ask you something a little more complex, you take time. I ask you something, and you reply, you say, ‘I don’t know.’ So, there are these three factors: one, immediate response – what’s your name, where’s your house, etc. – and a little more complex question, you take a time, a lag, an interval between the question and the answer. And if there is a question about which you have never thought or investigated, you say, ‘I really don’t know. ’ Right? That’s clear. So, there are these three factors. 18:28 The one, familiar, quick answer because you have repeated your name a hundred thousand times, you are very familiar with it so the response is quick, there is no time-lag. There is a time-lag, if I say, what is the distance between here and Timbuktu? You say, ‘By Jove, let me think,’ and you are calculating. And you say, so much, or, ‘I don’t know.’ Or, I ask you a question: do you know if there is God? Don’t answer. If you are sane, rational, not committed to any form of belief, then you say, ‘I really don’t know.’ So, there are these three things. | 17:17 克：不，先生。 我正在询问，我询问你的名字， 而你的回答是非常迅速的。 这是为什么？ 而当我问你某个稍微复杂一点的问题， 你就会花费一些时间。 我又问了你一些东西， 而你回答，你说，“我不知道。 ” 所以，这里存在着三个因素： 第一个，立即的反应 ——你叫什么名字，你家住哪里，等等—— 其次是稍微复杂一点的问题， 你需要花点时间思考它， 所以在问题和回答之间 会有一个延迟，一个间隔。 最后，如果有一个你从来没有想过 或研究过的问题， 那么你就会说，“我真的不知道。 ” 对吧？这是很清楚的事。 所以存在着这三个因素。 18:28 一个是你熟悉的，所以你会快速回答， 因为你已经重复过自己的名字无数次了， 你非常熟悉它， 所以你的反应是迅速的， 其中并没有时间上的延迟。 但如果我问： 这里距离廷巴克图（Timbuktu）有多远？ 那时（你的回答）就会有一个时间上的延迟。 你会说，“天哪，让我想一想”， 然后你会开始计算距离。 然后你会说：它们之间距离好远， 或者，“我不知道。 ” 或者说，当我问你一个问题： 你知道「上帝」是否存在吗？ 不要回答。 如果你是一个心智健全的、理性的人， 也没有投身于任何信仰的话， 你就会说，“我其实并不知道。 ” 所以，这里有这么三件事情。 |
| 19:32 Now, I ask… the question is, what is thinking? You will not be able to reply to it quickly because you haven’t thought about it. Now, I ask you the question, what is thinking? Your brain is searching – right? – asking, looking, watching, ‘where can I find that out, where is the answer to that?’ Isn’t that what is going on? So, you are looking into memory, the bank of memory, and trying to find an answer to it. Have you found it? | 19:32 而现在，我问……我的问题是： 什么是「思考」？ 你将无法很快地回答它， 因为你从未想过这个问题。 而现在，我问了你这个问题： 什么是思考？ 于是你的大脑开始搜寻——对吧？ —— 它在询问、查看、注意， “我在哪里可以发现答案， 这个问题的答案在哪里？ ” 这不就是实际发生的事情吗？ 所以你正在调查研究记忆，你的“记忆库”， 并试图找到问题的答案。 你找到它了吗？ |
| 20:29 Q: Yes. | 20:29 问：找到了。 |
| 20:30 K: Have you found an answer for yourself, which must be rational, logical, objective, can stand up against any questioning, which can be doubted, not easily accepted? So, have you found such an answer? | 20:30 克：你是否自己找到了一个答案， 这个答案必须是理性的、逻辑的、客观的， 它经受得住任何质疑， 这个答案可能会被怀疑， 并且不那么容易被接受？ 那么，你是否找到了这样的答案？ |
| 20:57 Q: Yes. | 20:57 问：找到了。 |
| 21:06 K: So we’re asking, what is thinking? Is not thinking the response of memory? Right, sir? Memory as knowledge, as experience, stored up in the brain, in the very cells themselves, and that knowledge, experience, memory responds. So, the experience, knowledge, the memory, and the response of memory is thinking. Right? Right, sirs? | 21:06 克：所以我们在问：什么是思考？ 思考难道不是记忆的反应吗？ 对吧，先生？ 记忆就是知识，就是经验，它储存在大脑中， 储存在脑细胞之中， 是那种知识、经验和记忆在作出反应。 所以经验、知识、记忆， 以及记忆的反应，就是「思考」。 对吧？对吗，先生们？ 问：对，没错。 |
| 22:10 Q: Yes, yes. | 22:10 克：不，不要 |
| 22:12 K: No, not… don’t please accept because this poor chap talks about it. See it for… | 22:12 请不要因为这个可怜的家伙这么说， 你就接受它。 请你自己去看到它 |
| 22:19 Q: They’re all one and the same, aren’t they, sir? All three of them. | 22:19 问：它们是同一个东西，不是吗，先生？ 它们三者。 |
| 22:30 K: I’m coming to that. I’m coming to that. That is, the experience, knowledge, memory, thinking, it is a tremendously rapid movement. Right? It’s one unit, not separate banks. It is one united movement. Right? So, thinking is based on memory, which is the past. Right? So, thinking can never be new. Right? | 22:30 克：我正要谈这一点。 我正要来谈这一点。 也就是：经验、知识、记忆、思考， 它是一种无比快速的运动。 对吧？ 它是同一个单元，而不是分开的仓库。 它是一种联合一体的运动。 对吧？ 所以，思考是建立在记忆之上的 ——而记忆就是过去。 对吧？ 所以思考永远不可能是新的。 对吗？ |
| 23:35 Q: There are inventions that are new. | 23:35 问：有一些发明物是新的。 |
| 23:42 K: Invention. No, wait a minute, sir, I won’t… Wait, don’t go off, we’II answer that question presently, but first see what is happening to you not to the person who is inventing a new thing. We’II go into that. What is happening when you ask this question? Apply it to yourself, please, not to the inventor. So, do we see this fact, the nature and the structure of thinking the structure, like a building, the structure of thinking is the movement of the past, as memory. So, memory, thought and thinking can never be, under any circumstances, new. Because it is the response of memory, the past experience, stored up as knowledge, so thought is coming from the past. | 23:42 克：发明物。 不，等一下，先生，我不能 等等，不要偏题， 我们马上就会来回答这个问题， 但首先请看到发生在你身上的事情， 而不是发生在那个发明者身上的事情。 我们将会来探讨它。 当你问这个问题的时候，发生了什么？ 请看看你自己，而不是看那个发明者。 所以，我们是否看到了这个事实， 是否看到了思考的本质与结构， 结构，就像建筑物的结构一样， 思考的结构就是那种作为「记忆」的“过去的运动”。 所以，记忆、思想和思考 在任何情况下都永远不可能是新的。 因为它是记忆的反应， 过去的经验作为「知识」而储存起来了， 所以思想是来自于过去的。 |
| 24:59 Yes, sir? | 24:59 请说，先生？ |
| 25:00 Q: Cannot this thinking, this thought or this knowledge and all that, cannot that come together into a new thought, a new realisation, a culmination of something? | 25:00 问：这种思考，这种思想， 或者这种知识等等这一切，它们难道不能 它们能不能合并成一个全新的思想， 一种全新的了悟，一个事物的顶点？ |
| 25:10 K: Thought can never realise anything new, because it is the response of memory, the old. There can be the new only when thought stops. | 25:10 克：思想是永远无法了悟任何新东西的， 因为它是记忆的反应 ——而记忆是旧的东西。 只有当思想停止后，才可能会有新的事物。 |
| 25:30 Q: If it’s new, it’s not thought? | 25:30 问：如果它是新的，那它就不是思想了？ |
| 25:38 K: No, please, I won’t… Do, first of all, let’s get this clear. See what we are doing: our whole social, moral, political, religious structure is based on this movement of thought. All our gods, all our churches, all our rituals, all our saviours, everything is based on thought. Right? But, sir, if you say, ‘Yes,’ see the danger of what you’re saying. If there is the urge to find the new, totally new, thought must totally come to an end. Which means you must abandon everything that is based on thought, which you won’t. | 25:38 克：不是，请注意，我不能 首先，务必让我们把这一点搞清楚。 看到我们正在做的事情： 我们整个社会、道德、政治、 和宗教结构都是建立在 这种思想运动之上的。 我们所有的神明、教堂、宗教仪式， 我们所有的救世主， 所有一切都是建立在思想之上的。 对吧？ 但是先生，如果你说，“是的”， 你就要看到你所说的话语背后的危险。 如果你极其渴望发现新事物——全新的事物， 思想就必须完全彻底地结束。 这意味着你必须抛弃一切基于思想的东西 ——可你并不会这么做。 |
| 27:02 Q: Is it possible to abandon everything? | 27:02 问：我们可能抛弃掉一切吗？ |
| 27:10 K: Is this possible? The lady asks, is this possible, to end thought? | 27:10 克：它可能吗？ 这位女士问：是否可能结束思想？ |
| 27:25 Q: Thought can’t end it. | 27:25 问：思想是无法结束思想的。 |
| 27:35 Q: If you answer that question you block yourself; if you answer either way, you block yourself. | 27:35 问：如果你回答了这个问题，你就自我设限了； 无论你怎么回答，你都会自我设限。 |
| 27:39 K: So, without blocking oneself, let’s find out. Our relationship with each other – man, woman, husband and wife, boy and girl, and so on, is not that relationship, please listen, based on thought? | 27:39 克：所以，不要自我设限，让我们来把它搞清楚吧。 我们彼此之间的关系 ——男人，女人、丈夫和妻子， 男女朋友，等等， 这种关系难道不是 ——请听好——建立在「思想」上的吗？ |
| 28:20 Q: What is the capacity to combine thoughts, which is thinking? | 28:20 问：那种将思想组合起来的能力是什么 ——思想的组合就是思考。 |
| 28:24 K: What is the capacity of conveying thought? | 28:24 克：那种传达思想的能力是什么？ |
| 28:28 Q: No, combining. Combination of images into thinking, what is that capacity? | 28:28 问：不是，是组合。 将那些意象组合起来成为思考， 这种能力是什么呢？ |
| 28:33 K: What is the capacity of...? | 28:33 克：这种能力是什么呢……？ |
| 28:38 Q: The capacity to combine? | 28:38 问：那种去组合的能力？ |
| 28:41 K: The capacity to combine various images? | 28:41 克：那种去组合各种意象的能力？ |
| 28:44 Q: That’s right. Is that not thought? | 28:44 问：对。它是不是就是思想？ |
| 28:46 K: Listen carefully, sir, don’t add more to it. What is the capacity – I am not trying to stop you, sir – what is the capacity that combines, that adds, that brings together various images. Right? What do you think it is, the capacity? I have got an image of the country, I have got an image of my wife, I have got an image of my, if I believe, God, I have got an image of my boss. Right? Now, what is it that combines, that brings about relationship with each other? Is it not thought itself? | 28:46 克：请仔细听好，先生， 不要再添加什么了。 那种能力是什么 ——我并没有试图制止你，先生—— 那种组合、添加、 与合并各种意象的能力是什么？ 对吧？ 你认为那种能力是什么？ 我拥有一个关于自己国家的意象， 我拥有一个关于我妻子的意象， 我也有一个——如果我有信仰的话—— 关于我的上帝的意象， 我也会有关于我老板的意象。 对吧？ 那么，是什么东西在组合， 并带来了人与人之间的关系呢？ |
| 29:51 Q: Yes. | 29:51 它不就是思想本身吗？ 问：是的。 |
| 29:54 K: Wait a minute, sir. We’II go into it differently, you will see it in a minute. We’II see each other in two minutes. I am asking what is the relationship between human beings, what is that relationship based on? | 29:54 克：请等一下，先生。 我们将以不同的方式来探究它， 你很快就会明白它了。 只要两分钟，我们就能理解彼此了。 我在问：人与人之间的关系是什么， |
| 30:13 Q: Feeling. | 30:13 这种关系是建立在什么之上的？ 问：感受。 |
| 30:18 K: Feeling. Is there a feeling without thought? | 30:18 克：感受。 |
| 30:26 Q: Yes. | 30:26 那么是否存在一种没有思想的感受呢？ 问：存在。 |
| 30:30 K: You are all so quick! If you did not recognise a feeling would there be a feeling? That is, one is jealous – that’s a feeling. Right? Right? And, if you did not recognise it, which is, the word ‘jealousy’ is stored up in memory, representing a particular feeling, and when you use that word ‘jealousy,’ it is recognised. Otherwise it is a feeling. So, there is no feeling without thought. Please, I don’t want to go into… This is a very complex thing. I wish... We’II go into it, presently. I am asking you, first of all, what is the relationship of human beings, what is it based on – husband, wife, boyfriend, girl, and so on – what is it based on? | 30:30 克：你们全都太快了！ 如果你没有识别某种感受， 那时还会有感受吗？ 换句话说： 某人嫉妒了——这是一种感受。 对吧？ 对吗？ 而如果你不去识别这种感受的话， 也就是，“嫉妒”这个词储存在记忆中， 它代表了某种特定的感受， 而当你使用“嫉妒”这个词时， 这种感受就被识别了。 否则的话，它只是一种感受。 所以，并不存在没有思想介入的感受。 请注意，我并不想深入探究它 这是一件非常复杂的事情。 而我希望 我们待会儿再来探讨它。 首先，我在问你： 人与人之间的关系是什么？ 这种关系是建立在什么之上的 ——丈夫、妻子、男女朋友等等—— 它是建立在什么上面的？ |
| 31:56 Q: Can’t there be direct perception, as well as thought, in a relationship? | 31:56 问：关系中是否能够同时存在 「直接的感受」和思想？ |
| 32:10 K: Can there be direct perception as well as thought in relationship? We’re going to find out. I am asking, we are asking each other, what is our relationship based on? | 32:10 克：关系中是否能够同时存在 「直接的感受」和思想？ 我们将会来搞清楚这一点。 我正在问，我们正在询问彼此， 我们的关系是建立在什么上面的？ |
| 32:26 Q: Pain and pleasure. | 32:26 问：痛苦和快乐。 |
| 32:28 Q: The relationship is based on thought. | 32:28 问：关系是建立在思想之上的。 |
| 32:36 K: When you say your relationship is based on thought, do you know what are the implications of that? | 32:36 克：当你说你的关系是建立在思想上的， 你知道这暗示着什么吗？ 问：说明我们并没有关系。 |
| 32:44 Q: There is no relationship. | 32:44 克：不，先生，你这样太 |
| 32:47 K: No, sir, that’s such… Can you say that to your wife? ‘There is no relationship.’ Or to your girlfriend, ‘Oh, it’s all just thought.’ Please go into it, together, let’s go into it. We’re asking what is this relationship based on? | 32:47 你会对你的妻子说这话吗？ “我们并没有关系。” 或者对女朋友说，“哦，它（我们的关系）只是思想。 ” 请一起来研究它， 让我们来深入它。 我们正在问：这种关系是建立在什么之上的？ 问：痛苦和快乐。 |
| 33:30 Q: Pain and pleasure. | 33:30 克：天哪！ |
| 33:34 K: Jesus! | 33:34 问：它是建立在「爱」之上的。 克：建立在「爱」之上。 |
| 33:39 Q: Based on love. | 33:39 是这样吗？ |
| 33:43 K: Based on love. Is it? If it is based on love, then there can be no jealousy. Right? There can be no attachment. Right? There can be no possessiveness, no domination, no sense of belonging to me and belonging to another. So, we won’t, please, if you will forgive me, we’II go into that word, and that’s a very complex business, so, let’s begin very simply. We like to think our relationship is based on love, on goodness, kindness, affection, care, love and all the rest of it. But it is not. | 33:43 如果它是建立在「爱」之上的， 那关系中就不可能会有「嫉妒」了。 对吧？ 也不会有「执著」了。 对吧？ 那时不会有「占有」，不会有「支配」， 也不会有那种“某人属于我”， 和“我属于某人”的感觉。 所以我们不要，拜托了，请你原谅我， 我们将会来探究这个词语， 这是一件非常复杂的事情， 所以，让我们非常简单地开始探讨它。 我们喜欢认为自己的关系是建立在「爱」之上、 建立在善良、友好、感情、关心、 爱，等等此类东西之上的。 但事实上并非如此。 问：建立在恐惧之上？ |
| 34:53 Q: Based on fear? | 34:53 克：这是事实，难道不是吗？ |
| 34:55 K: That’s a fact, isn’t it? Let’s look at the facts. So, we are asking, what is it based on? | 34:55 让我们来看看事实。 所以，我们正在问： 关系是建立在什么之上的？ |
| 35:07 Q: Fear? | 35:07 问：恐惧？ |
| 35:10 K: Is it based on fear? | 35:10 克：它是建立在恐惧之上的吗？ 问：相互剥削利用？ |
| 35:12 Q: Mutual exploitation? | 35:12 克：那我就不知道了，先生， 卷入这种关系的是你们，我可没有。 |
| 35:14 K: I don’t know, sir, you are all involved in it, I am not. | 35:14 问：建立在你对另一个人的渴望之上。 |
| 35:23 Q: Based on your desire for another person. | 35:23 问：它建立在「需求」之上。 |
| 35:28 Q: It’s based on need. | 35:28 克：我们并没有去看。 拜托了，先生，去看看你的妻子， |
| 35:29 K: We don’t look. Please, sir, look at your wife, find out what your relationship is with her instead of just throwing out words – or your girlfriend. Find out, look at it! | 35:29 去发现你和她——或者和女朋友——的关系是什么， 而不只是扔出一堆话来。 去发现它，去看它！ |
| 35:45 Q: Knowledge. | 35:45 问：知识。 问：它是建立在需求之上的， |
| 35:47 Q: It is based on need, the way we’re raised in our society. | 35:47 我们在社会中被培养长大的方式。 |
| 35:55 K: Need. Which is what? I need you – for what? Comfort, sex… | 35:55 克：需求。这是什么呢？ 我需要你——为了什么呢？安慰、性爱 |
| 36:07 Q: Security. | 36:07 问：安全感。 |
| 36:09 K: Dependency? | 36:09 克：依赖关系？ 问：帮我洗衣服。 |
| 36:12 Q: The laundry. | 36:12 克：你们并没有深入它。 |
| 36:15 K: You don’t go into this. Are you frightened to go into this? | 36:15 你们是害怕深入探究它吗？ 问：是的。 |
| 36:21 Q: Yes. | 36:21 克：果然如此，先生！ |
| 36:23 K: Yes, sir! | 36:23 问：它是建立在我们过去的局限之上的。 |
| 36:25 Q: It is based on our past conditioning. | 36:25 克：天哪！ |
| 36:28 K: Gee willikers! | 36:28 问：先生，看起来…… 我其实不是很明白， |
| 36:31 Q: Sir, it seems that… I don’t really know, but it seems, from my experience, that there is a force involved. There are two people, they are two, they’re opposite, they are male and female, or simply, they are two: there is you and there is me, and this force seems to be resolving that condition. It seems to be that they are two and there is this deep desire, this deep need, which the force is seeking to resolve, to make the two, one. | 36:31 但以我的经验来看，其中似乎包含了一种力量。 有两个人，他们是两个人， 他们是截然不同的， 一个是男人，一个是女人， 或者简单地说，他们就是两个人： “你”和“我”， 而这种力量似乎消除了那种局限。 虽然看起来他们是两个人， 但存在着这种深层的渴望、深层的需求， 这股力量在寻求解决这种渴望和需求 寻求让两者合一。 |
| 37:04 K: Sir, if I may point out, most respectfully – I’m not really sure I point out respectfully, doesn’t matter – may I point out that we are all so full of ideas, conclusions, what we want, we don’t examine ‘what is.’ If I am married and I have a wife, or a girlfriend, what is my relationship to her? On what is it based on? Attraction, physical sensation, sex, and the movement of thought which predominates all this. No? I see you haven’t... Let’s look at it, sir. | 37:04 克：先生，如果允许我无比尊敬地 指出来的话 ——但我其实并不确定我能否很尊敬地指出来， 不过这并不重要—— 我能否指出这一点： 那就是：我们全都充满了各种观念、结论， 渴望的东西， 我们并没有去检视「真实现状」。 如果我结婚了，有妻子或女朋友， 那么我和她的关系是什么？ 这种关系是建立在什么上面的？ 吸引力，生理感觉，性爱， 以及主导所有这一切的思想运动。 不是吗？ 我发现你们还没有…… 让我们来看一下它吧，先生。 |
| 38:13 You are married, one is married, or has a girlfriend, what takes place, instantly? Do look at it, please, look at it. You are married, you have a girlfriend, what takes place? Look at it. You have an image of her, haven’t you? She has an image of you, hasn’t she? No? Yes, sir? | 38:13 你结婚了，某人结婚了， 或者说他有了一个女朋友， 那么什么事情会立刻发生呢？ 请务必看一下它，去观察一下它。 你已经结婚了，你有一个女朋友， 然后发生了什么呢？ 请看一下它。 你会有一个关于她的意象，难道不是吗？ 而她也有一个关于你的意象， 对吧？ 没有吗？ 对吗，先生？ 问：对。 |
| 38:57 Q: Yes. | 38:57 克：好，那我们就从这里开始吧。 |
| 38:58 K: Now, start from that. You have an image about her, and she has an image about you. How does this image come into being? | 38:58 你有一个关于她的意象， 而她也有一个关于你的意象。 那么这个意象是如何产生的呢？ |
| 39:13 Q: It comes into being by the process of memory, which is thought. | 39:13 问：它是经由记忆的过程——也就是思想——而产生的。 |
| 39:17 K: So, you are saying this image-building is based on memory. You said something awful yesterday, you were rude to me, you insulted me, you called me a fool, registered, memory, and the building of image. Right? No? | 39:17 克：所以，你在说的是： 这种“意象的构建”是基于记忆的。 你昨天对我说了一些难听的话， 你对我很粗鲁无礼， 你侮辱了我，你骂我是个傻瓜， 于是我把它记录下来，成了记忆， 并构建了意象。 对吧？不是这样吗？ |
| 39:44 Q: Can’t a relationship be fresh every time you see the person, if you don’t have an image... | 39:44 问：你能否在每一次看到那个人时， 都拥有崭新的关系 ——如果你没有意象的话 |
| 39:52 K: But, sir, that is an idea, a conclusion. First begin with ‘what is.’ | 39:52 克：但是，先生，这只是一个想法、一个结论。 我们首先要从「真实现状」开始。 |
| 40:03 Q: We see clearly but we see intellectually that, all you are saying, that all our relationship is based on memory, ‘what should be,’ we need because we think we need and there is no need other than that. We see this all verbally and it’s not in our heart, how does it get there? | 40:03 问：我们清楚地看到了， 但我们是在思想智力上看到了 你所说的一切： 即我们所有的关系都是建立在记忆之上， 建立在“应该怎样”之上的， 我们需要对方是因为我们认为我们需要， 除此之外，我们并没有别的需要。 我们全都是在口头文字上看到了这些， 而不是在内心看到它， 这种理解要怎么抵达内心呢？ |
| 40:21 K: Sir, in our heart, to have a relationship in our heart, which means affection, care – you follow? – all that is involved in that. Have we got that? Apparently, you can’t look frankly at this. One has an image about another, whether it is the wife or the president of this country or the pope, you have an image about each other. That’s a fact. Based on previous memory, previous incidents, and stored up in the memory, and the memory, which is image-making, memory is image, the word. 41:25 Right? That’s simple. So, my relationship to my wife or girlfriend is based on an image which I have… which has been gathering through incidents – sex, pleasure, this pleasure, the memory of sex, all that, then there is the dependence on her – right? – the attachment, the possessiveness, all that is built up, through time as memory and image. This is fact. No? No? | 40:21 克：先生，抵达我们的内心， 要在我们的内心拥有一种关系， 它意味着情感、关爱 ——你跟上了吗？ —— 所有这一切都包含在其中。 我们明白这一点了吗？ 很显然，你们难以坦白老实地去看它。 我们会形成对另一个人的意象， 不管这个人是妻子， 还是这个国家的总统，或者教皇， 你们对彼此也会有一个意象。 这是事实。 这个意象是建立在以往的记忆、 以往的事件之上的， 并被储存在了记忆里， 而那种记忆，它就是“创造意象”， 记忆就是意象，就是词语文字。 41:25 对吧？这是很简单的。 所以，我和我妻子或女朋友的关系 是建立在意象之上的，这个意象是我 这个意象是经由各种事件而聚合起来的 ——性爱，快乐，这种快感， 关于性爱的记忆，等等这些， 然后你就会变得依赖于她 ——对吧？ —— 那种执著，那种占有， 所有这些经由时间而被建构成了记忆和意象。 这是事实。 |
| 42:17 Q: Yes. | 42:17 不是吗？不是？ 问：是事实。 |
| 42:19 K: Contradict, sir, discuss, break it down. If I am wrong, I am wrong – let’s find out. | 42:19 克：反驳啊，先生， 讨论它，分析它。 如果我错了，那我就错了 ——让我们来把它搞清楚。 |
| 42:26 Q: It’s a fact. | 42:26 问：这是一个事实。 问：它是对的。 |
| 42:27 Q: It’s true. | 42:27 克：好的。 |
| 42:28 K: Right. Then your relationship is between these two images. See the implications of it. Memory, relationship between two people: husband, wife, boy, and all that, is between these two images, which thought has built together, through time. It may be one day, or one second, it is already there. When you say something nice to me, it is already in memory, or when you insult me, it is already there. So, when there is relationship between two images, is it relationship? | 42:28 所以，你们的关系其实是 这两个意象之间的关系。 看到这其中的暗示含义。 记忆，两个人之间的关系： 丈夫、妻子、男朋友等等， 它是这两个意象之间的关系， 而意象是思想通过时间拼凑构建起来的。 可能是一天构建起来的，或是一秒钟就构建起来了， 它已经在那里了。 当你对我说了一些好听的话， 意象就已存在于记忆中了， 或者当你侮辱了我， 意象就已经在那里了。 所以，当那是两个意象之间的关系时， 它还是关系吗？ 问：不是。 |
| 43:26 Q: No. | 43:26 克：不是。很好。 |
| 43:28 K: No. Right. If it is not, then what are we talking about? | 43:28 如果它不是关系， 那么我们在讨论的是什么呢？ |
| 43:33 Q: Oneness. | 43:33 问：合一。 问：错觉。 |
| 43:35 Q: Illusion. | 43:35 问：是不是当你说出它的那一刻， 它就不可能是「爱」了。 |
| 43:37 Q: Is it the minute that you say it, it can’t be love. If you’ve said it then it’s a thought and it is not love. | 43:37 如果你说出了它，那它就成了一个思想， 而不是「爱」了。 |
| 43:45 K: I haven’t gone into that, yet. I said a relationship between two images put together by thought, in which we are caught. Right? Therefore the constant battle, the struggle between man and woman, girl and boy, whatever it is, husband, wife, the constant conflict, ending up in divorce and all the rest of it. Right, sir? Facts. Now, let’s move from there. I face the fact. I don’t deceive myself, I don’t say, ‘It’s love, it’s romance, it is a lovely feeling. ’ Wash it all out. The fact is, it’s based on this image-making. Right? Now, my next question is, can this image-making stop? You understand? | 43:45 克：我还没有谈到这一点呢。 我谈到了两个意象之间的关系， 我们陷入于这种关系中 ——而这些意象是由思想拼凑起来的。 对吧？ 因此男人和女人之间会有持续不断的战斗、斗争， 男女朋友，或者无论什么关系， 丈夫和妻子，那种持续不断的冲突， 最后的结果就是离婚，等等这些。 对吧，先生？ 这些都是事实。 现在，让我们从这里开始吧。 我面对这个事实。 我没有欺骗我自己， 我没有说，“这是爱情，这是浪漫， 这是一种美好的感觉。 ” 把这些都扔掉。 事实就是：它（关系）是建立在 这种“意象创造”之上的。 对吧？ 而现在，我的下一个问题就是： 这种“意象创造”能够停止吗？ 你理解了吗？ |
| 45:08 Q: Can there be image-making and not be caught by it? | 45:08 问：是否可能创造意象但却不陷入于它？ |
| 45:27 K: I don’t understand the question. | 45:27 克：我不理解这个问题。 |
| 45:32 Q: Can you have your cake and eat it, too? | 45:32 问：你可以鱼和熊掌兼得吗？ |
| 45:34 K: Can there be image-making and yet not be caught in it? | 45:34 克：是否可能创造意象却不陷入于其中？ |
| 45:38 Q: Can the brain manufacture images without being caught in them? | 45:38 问：大脑是否能够制造意象 却不陷入于它们之中？ |
| 45:48 K: You haven’t seen the question. You haven’t, sir, you haven’t understood the first part of the question: what is thinking? Thinking, we said, is memory, experience, knowledge, memory, stored up in the brain, and it’s one movement, not separate movements, it’s one movement, which is the whole process of thinking. This thinking, in relationship, has built these images: me and you, we and they, communists, socialists, and all the rest of the world. 46:33 So, I am asking myself, I see when there is these two images, you have about her and she has about you, I see the tremendous danger in this. You follow? Do you see the great danger in this? In relationship, in all relationships, whether it is with the neighbour, or neighbour ten thousand miles away. Do you actually see what happens when there is these two images? | 45:48 克：你还没有明白这个问题。 你还没有，先生， 你还没有理解这个问题的第一部分： 什么是思考？ 思考，就如我们所说： 它就是记忆、经验、 知识，记忆被储存在了大脑中， 而它们是同一个运动， 而不是彼此分离独立的运动， 它是同一个运动，它就是思考的整个过程。 这种思考在关系中制造出了这些意象： 我和你，我们和他们， 共产主义者、社会主义者， 以及世界上所有其他的东西。 46:33 所以，我问自己，我看到 当存在着这两个意象， 你对她有一个意象， 她对你也有一个意象， 我看到了这其中巨大的危险性。 你理解了吗？ 你看到这其中巨大的危险了吗？ 在关系中，在所有的关系中， 不管它是和你邻居的关系， 还是和千里之外邻居的关系。 你是否真的看到了 当存在这两个意象时会发生的事情？ |
| 47:15 Q: We don’t live in the now. | 47:15 问：我们没有“活在当下”。 |
| 47:19 K: It is not a question of living in the now, sir, that’s a fact. We go away from the fact. | 47:19 克：这并不是一个“活在当下”的问题，先生， 这是一个事实。 而我们偏离了这个事实。 |
| 47:27 Q: If we were relating without images, we’d relate... | 47:27 问：如果我们的关系中没有意象， 那么这种关系 |
| 47:29 K: So, you are asking yourself, as long as these two images exist, there must be conflict. Right? And the next question is, I see the danger of conflict in human relationship because when there is conflict there is no love, obviously. So, we are asking, can this image-making stop? | 47:29 克：所以，你正在问自己， 只要这两个意象还是存在， 那就必定会有冲突。 对吧？ 而接下来的问题则是： 我看到了人类关系中冲突的危险性， 因为有了冲突，就不会有「爱」， 这是显而易见的。 所以我们在问： 这种“意象的创造”可以停止吗？ |
| 48:24 Q: Who is going to answer the question? | 48:24 问：谁要来回答这个问题？ |
| 48:32 K: Who is going to answer the question? Both of us together. I have put the question, which is, the image-making and the images that we have in relationship, and we say, can that image-making stop? Not who is to stop it. Please understand this. Not who is to stop it. If you say, ‘I will stop it,’ the ‘I’ is the product of thought. Right? So, thought has created the images, thought says, I’II break it, because it will create another image. Right? So, what will bring about an end to the image-making? | 48:32 克：谁来回答这个问题？ 我们双方一起来回答它。 我已经提出了这个问题， 即：存在着“意象的创造”， 以及我们在关系中所拥有的意象， 而我们说： 这种“意象的创造”可以停止吗？ 不是谁去停止它。 请理解这一点。 不是谁要去制止它。 如果你说，“我将会去制止它，” 那这个“我”就是思想的产物。 对吧？ 所以，思想已经创造出了这些意象， 然后思想说：我要去打破它， 因为这样它就可以去创造其他意象了。 对吧？ 所以，什么东西才可以终结“意象的创造”呢？ |
| 49:43 Q: Constant thoughtless yoga union. | 49:43 问：持续无念的瑜伽联结。 |
| 49:55 K: Yoga? Lord, love a duck! Sir, the word ‘yoga’ – I won’t go in it, sorry. That’s a distraction. When we are talking about something very, very serious, talk about yoga has no meaning. If you want to discuss yoga, we’II go into it, but not when you are discussing relationship in which there is conflict. Don’t you know conflict, sir, between you and your wife, night and day? And, can that division which thought has brought about, can that end? | 49:55 克：瑜伽？ 我的天哪！ 先生，“瑜伽”这个词 ——我就不进入它了，对不起。 它是一种分心干扰。 当我们在谈论某种非常非常严肃的东西时， 谈论瑜伽是没有什么意义的。 如果你想要讨论瑜伽， 我们可以来探讨它， 但不是在你讨论「关系」的时候 ——关系中存在着冲突。 你难道不知道冲突吗，先生？ 你和你妻子之间日日夜夜的冲突？ 而这种思想所带来的分裂， 这种分裂能够停止吗？ |
| 50:56 Q: When thought ends. | 50:56 问：当思想停止后就可以了。 |
| 51:01 K: No, sir. No, can that end, the image-making? | 51:01 克：不，先生。不，它可以结束吗 ——这种意象的创造？ |
| 51:07 Q: If we eliminate the use of memory. | 51:07 问：当我们不再使用记忆后。 |
| 51:13 Q: Being attentive to the present moment. | 51:13 问：关注当下这一刻。 |
| 51:16 K: Yes, present moment, that is, to live in the present. Right, sir? Now, is it possible to live in the present? What does it mean? | 51:16 克：是的，当下这一刻， 也就是说：要活在当下。 对吧，先生？ 那么，我们是否可能活在当下呢？ 活在当下意味着什么？ |
| 51:29 Q: Give your attention to the present. | 51:29 问：将你的注意力集中在当下。 |
| 51:31 K: No, what does it mean, sir, to live in the present, actually, not theoretically? Actually, daily, when you are in your office, in your home, when you are sleeping with somebody, live in the present, what does it mean? | 51:31 克：不，活在当下，它是什么意思，先生， 实际的含义，而不是理论上的含义？ 从事实上说，从日常生活上来说， 当你在办公室上班， 当你在家里，当你和某人睡在一起时， 活在当下——它意味着什么呢？ |
| 51:46 Q: Not having images. | 51:46 问：心中没有意象。 |
| 51:51 K: That’s a theory! | 51:51 克：这只是理论！ |
| 51:53 Q: We don’t know because we don’t do it. | 51:53 问：我们并不知道，因为我们没有这么做过。 |
| 51:55 K: You really don’t know what it means to live in the present, which is to live without time. I won’t go into all that. Again, we are distracting. So, I am asking... | 51:55 克：所以你其实并不知道 「活在当下」是什么意思， 也就是“没有时间地活着”。 我就不深入所有这些了。 它同样会让我们分心。 所以我在问 |
| 52:13 Q: How can we live anywhere but the present? How can we live anywhere but in the present? | 52:13 问：我们如何才能只活在当下之中呢？ 我们如何才能只活在当下之中呢？ |
| 52:28 K: How can we live anywhere but in the present? The word ‘present,’ the actual second, the present... Sir, you see, I can tell you but it has no meaning when we are discussing this. So, can the image-maker, which is thought, and the building of images, end? | 52:28 克：我们如何才能只活在当下之中呢？ 「当下」这个词，那个真实的瞬间，此时此刻 先生，你瞧，我可以把它告诉你， 但我们是在讨论这个问题， 所以我这么做并没有什么意义。 所以那个意象的创造者 ——也就是思想， 以及那种“意象的构建”，它们可以结束吗？ |
| 53:10 Q: If we still the mind, we can end it. | 53:10 问：如果我们让头脑安静下来，我们就可以结束它。 |
| 53:13 K: If we still the mind, we can end it. Now, that is just a supposition, ‘if.’ ‘I wish it would rain. ’ It doesn’t rain. Sir, please, for God’s sake, stick to what we are talking – not theories, not conditional responses, which is ‘if,’ ‘when,’ all that. The fact is this. If you will listen, even, we will go, together, into this, but you are so full of ideas. | 53:13 克：如果我们让头脑安静下来，我们就可以结束它。 可是，这只是一个假设，“如果……”， “我希望天能下雨。 ”但它并没有下。 先生，拜托了，看在上帝的份上， 请专注于我们正在谈论的东西 ——而不是各种理论， 也不是那些局限性的回应， 也就是“如果……”，“当……”，诸如此类的东西。 事实就是如此。 如果你可以聆听，哪怕是…… 我们就可以一起来探讨它了， 但你充满了各种观点理念。 |
| 53:55 I see the tremendous danger, and I am using the word ‘danger’ in its full significance. Danger in relationship, having images about her and about him, because that brings about great conflict in life. Right? In that there is violence. Conflict means violence. In that there is no care. You might say, ‘Darling, how beautiful you are, here is a ring,’ but conflict goes on, next minute. So, you have to find out whether this image-making can end not through effort, because if you make an effort it is part of, again, conflict. 54:52 Not through desire, not through a reward, say, ‘If I do this, I’II get that.’ So, what am I to do? Put that question to yourself. What are you to do when you have got these two images, and you are living with another human being, intimately or not intimately, and you have got these images and therefore conflict. What are you to do? | 53:55 我看到了那种巨大的危险， 我所使用的「危险」这个词 包含了它全部的含义。 在关系中，拥有关于她（他）的意象的危险性， 因为这会带来生活中巨大的冲突。 对吧？ 在那之中有着暴力。 冲突就意味着暴力。 在那之中并没有关爱。 你或许会说，“亲爱的，你是多么美丽， 这枚戒指给你。 ” 但下一刻冲突就会发生。 所以你必须要去搞清楚： 这种“意象的创造”是否能够停止， 不是通过努力， 因为如果你做出努力， 它同样会成为冲突的一部分。 54:52 也不是通过欲望、通过奖励回报， 比如说，“如果我这样做，我就可以得到那个东西。 ” 那么，我该怎么做呢？ 问问你自己这个问题。 当你有了这两个意象， 并且你正与对方生活在一起时 ——无论你们亲密与否， 那么你该怎么做呢？ 你已经有了这些意象，从而有了冲突。 那么你该怎么办呢？ |
| 55:28 Q: Start it without images. The relationship started with an image. | 55:28 问：一开始就不要有意象。 因为关系是从一个意象开始的。 |
| 55:40 K: It starts without images. What has that got to do with it? | 55:40 克：关系开始时就不要有意象。 这和我们的问题有什么关系？ |
| 55:46 Q: We have to start every day, anew. | 55:46 问：我们必须要焕然一新地开始每一天。 |
| 55:50 Q: He’s been reading from your book. It sounds very good. | 55:50 问：他从你的著作中读到了这句话。 它听起来很棒。 |
| 55:53 K: That’s just a theory again, start every day anew. | 55:53 克：这同样也只是理论 ——焕然一新地开始每一天。 |
| 55:57 Q: Without images. | 55:57 问：不要有意象。 克：不要有意象。 |
| 56:00 K: Without the image. | 56:00 问：去经验完全的、彻底的、绝对的「内在的寂静」， |
| 56:02 Q: The experience of complete, total and absolute inner silence is the experience of no image. | 56:02 这就是“没有意象的体验”。 |
| 56:12 K: Absolute, total silence. | 56:12 克：绝对的、完全的寂静。 问：内在的寂静。 |
| 56:14 Q: Inner silence. | 56:14 克：内在的寂静。你得到它了吗？ 问：是的，我得到了。 |
| 56:16 K: Inner silence. Have you got it? | 56:16 克：噢，那样的话，问题就结束了。 |
| 56:18 Q: Yes, I have. | 56:18 你瞧，你们这些人并没有去 |
| 56:19 K: Oh, then, the problem is over. You see, you people don’t go... | 56:19 问：并不是一天二十四小时，而是 |
| 56:27 Q: Not twenty-four hours a day, but... | 56:27 克：不是二十四小时，而是偶尔才有。 |
| 56:29 K: Not twenty-four hours, but occasionally. The rest of the time – battle. | 56:29 而其余的时间里则是在「斗争」。 |
| 56:41 K: Sir, please, would you kindly listen. I really want to end this. This image-making, I see the tremendous danger in it. So, I ask myself, can this end? Because the danger is more important than anything else, you know, like a precipice, when you see the danger of it, you move away from it. When you see a rattler, you move away from it. | 56:41 克：先生，拜托了， 你能不能好好听一下？ 我真的想要结束它。 这种「意象的创造」， 我看到了它巨大的危险性。 于是我问自己：它可以结束吗？ 因为这种危险比其他一切事情都更重要， 你知道的，就像你在悬崖边缘， 当你看到了它的危险时， 你自然就会离开它了。 当你看到一条响尾蛇，你就会远离它。 |
| 57:20 Q: (Inaudible) | 57:20 问：（听不清） |
| 57:22 K: Un momento, per favor. Just listen, sir. So, I see… one sees the danger of it. Which is, why does thought create these images? Don’t, please, answer it, immediately. | 57:22 克：等一下，拜托了。 请听好，先生。 所以我看到了……某人看到了它的危险。 也就是：为什么思想要创造出这些意象？ 请不要立即回答它。 |
| 57:49 Q: Desire? | 57:49 问：是因为欲望吗？ |
| 57:53 K: Go into it, sir, a little bit, before you answer. Go into it, a little bit. That is, I’m asking why thought, which is, my wife said something to me yesterday, nagged me, bullied me, was happy with me, gave me some comfort when I... etc., etc., and that has built an image. And, that image, I live according to that image and she does, too. And I say to myself, why does thought do this? | 57:53 克：先生，在你回答之前， 请先稍微研究一下它。 稍微深入它一下。 换句话说，我在问：为什么思想， 也就是，我的妻子昨天对我说了一些话， 她唠叨了我几句，威胁了我几句， 她对我感到满意， 在某些时候，她给了我一些安慰…… 等等，等等， 而这些东西便构建起了一个意象。 我就是根据那个意象来生活的， 而她也做着同样的事。 于是我对自己说， 为什么思想要这么做？ |
| 58:38 Q: (Inaudible) | 58:38 问：（听不清） |
| 58:41 K: Don’t answer it, yet, sir, please, give two minutes to go into it. You can only go into it if you have no ideas about it, if you don’t say, ‘Well, this is so, that is so,’ and jump to words. So, you have to find out why thought does this. | 58:41 克：先生，请先不要回答它， 花两分钟时间去探究它。 只有当你没有关于它的观点理念， 你才能够去探究它， 不要说，“啊，它是这样，它是那样，” 然后马上把结论说出来。 所以你必须要去搞清楚： 为什么思想要这么做？ |
| 59:13 Q: It seems that… | 59:13 问：看起来是因为 |
| 59:19 K: Thought does it – I’II have to continue because you… The thought does it because in the image it finds security. My wife – the image, and in that I am secure. Wait a minute, sir, just listen to it. My country. Right? Security. My group – security. The group being the image which I have created about the group, the image which I have created about the nation, the image which I have created through religious indoctrination, the image – whether the Christ, the Hindu gods, and all the mess of that business. 1:00:15 And so, thought creates these images because it finds security in it. Right? Whether that security is in neuroticism, neurotic beliefs, neurotic, or some beautiful, fanciful image, it is still the same. So, thought finds security, it wants security. Why? | 59:19 克：思想之所以这么做—— 我必须要继续讲下去，因为你们 思想之所以这么做， 是因为它在「意象」中找到了安全感。 我的妻子——这就是意象， 而我在这个意象中感到很安全。 稍等片刻，先生，只需要听就行了。 我的国家。 对吧？那种安全感。 我的团体——安全感。 团体就是我所创造出来的 关于那群人的意象， 我所创造出来的关于国家的意象， 我通过宗教教导而创造出来的意象， 那种意象——无论是耶稣基督，印度教的神明， 所有这些乱七八糟的东西。 1:00:15 因此，思想创造出了这些意象， 因为它在其中找到了安全感。 对吧？ 不管那种安全感是一种神经质， 神经病的信仰，神经质的、 或是某种美好的、幻想出来的意象， 它都是一样的东西。 所以，思想找到了安全感， 因为它想要安全。 为什么呢？ |
| 1:01:02 Q: It seems to me that thought wants to maintain itself. | 1:01:02 问：在我看来，这是因为思想想要维持它自己。 |
| 1:01:05 K: Yes, go on, sir, a little further, go on, don’t stop there. | 1:01:05 克：很好，继续，先生，再深入一下， 继续，不要停留在那里。 |
| 1:01:10 Q: It starts… | 1:01:10 问：一开始，它 |
| 1:01:11 K: Sir, don’t. You have said something. Investigate, move with it. | 1:01:11 克：先生，不要。你已经说出了一些东西。 去探究它，和它一起前进。 |
| 1:01:19 Q: It seems to me that thought is impermanent and therefore it seeks… | 1:01:19 问：在我看来，思想是短暂的， 因此它会去寻求 |
| 1:01:24 K: Are you sure of what you are saying? Don’t theorise about it. Don’t – unless you are speaking from fact, everything else is meaningless. | 1:01:24 克：你对你所说的东西确定吗？ 不要把它理论化。 不要…… 除非你是基于事实说出这话的， 否则一切都是毫无意义的。 |
| 1:01:40 Q: Thought always seeks out security, safety and certainty. | 1:01:40 问：思想总是在寻找安全、保障和确定。 |
| 1:01:46 K: Which is what? To be certain, secure, all that means it demands complete, inviolable security. Just a minute. Why? Why does thought demand this? My wife. You follow? I possess her, she is mine, she’s… etc, etc, etc. In that, there is great certainty, great security. I have identified myself with her. She has fulfilled what I want. And she does the same – it’s a mutual, interacting exploitation. Sorry to use an ugly word but it is a fact. 1:02:51 So, I say to myself, if thought seeks security, is there security in the image? You understand, sir? I sought security in my wife – the wife or the girl – and I have built an image about her, and in that image there is security, for me. But it’s an image – you understand? – it’s a word, it’s a memory, it’s such a fragile thing, but yet I hold on to it. | 1:01:46 克：这是什么呢？ 那就是要变得确定和安全， 所有这一切都意味着它需要 彻底的、不可侵犯的安全。 等一下。 那么这是为什么呢？ 为什么思想会需要它？ 我的妻子。 你跟上了吗？ 我拥有她，她是我的， 她是……等等，等等。 在这之中就有着巨大的确定感、巨大的安全感。 我已经把自己认同于她了。 她已经满足了我的需要。 反之亦然——这是一种彼此之间相互的剥削利用。 很抱歉使用了这么难听的词语， 但这是事实。 1:02:51 所以，我对自己说， 如果思想在寻求安全， 那么「意象」之中存在安全吗？ 你理解了吗，先生？ 我在我妻子身上寻求安全感 ——妻子或者女朋友—— 然后我建立起了一个关于她的意象， 对我来说，在那个意象中就有着安全。 但它只是一个意象 ——你明白了吗？ —— 它是一个词语，它是一段记忆， 它是一个如此脆弱易碎的东西， 然而我却还是紧抓着它不放。 |
| 1:03:37 Q: Sir, my thoughts are aware of the passage of time, and I’m afraid it’s going to end, so I seek permanency in the images I create. | 1:03:37 问：先生，我的思想意识到了时间的流逝， 而我害怕它（时间）会走到终点， 于是我在我所创造的意象中寻求「永久性」。 |
| 1:03:47 K: You seek permanency in anything. Right? So, I’m asking, why does thought seek it? | 1:03:47 克：你会在任何事物中寻求永久性。对吗？ 所以我在问：为什么思想要寻求它？ |
| 1:04:01 Q: (Inaudible) | 1:04:01 问：（听不清） |
| 1:04:03 K: Look into it, sir. I seek, please just listen, sir, I seek security in the traditional symbol, in the cross, I seek security in that. That cross, the whole structure, the nature and all that lies behind it, rituals, dogma, all that, I find security in that – why? And I know, logically, if I’m aware at all, logically, it’s a product of thought. Right? And yet thought clings to it. Why? | 1:04:03 克：研究一下它，先生。 我在寻求——请听好，先生—— 我在传统的符号标志——比如十字架中—— 寻求安全， 我在它之中寻求安全。 那个十字架， 它的整个结构，它的本质， 以及它背后隐藏的一切事物： 宗教仪式，宗教教条，所有这一切， 我在它们之中找到了安全感——为什么？ 而我从逻辑上知道 ——如果我确实有所觉察的话—— 我会从逻辑上知道：它（十字架）就是思想的产物。 对吧？ 然而思想却还是紧抓着它不放。为什么？ |
| 1:04:47 Q: Afraid… | 1:04:47 问：害怕 |
| 1:04:55 K: Is that part of our conditioning? Part of our being conditioned from childhood to believe in that symbol – Rama, Krishna, Christ, you know. Why? If thought finds security in it, and thought looks into it, and say, ‘My God, there is no security, it is just an idea! ’ Right? Which thought has put together. So, when thought clings to an image it is the very essence of neuroticism. Right? I know it is danger and yet I cling to it. Do you see the absurdity of this, sir? | 1:04:55 克：这是不是我们局限的一部分？ 我们从小开始的局限的一部分， 我们被制约着去相信那个符号 ——罗摩、奎师那、基督，你们都知道这些东西。 为什么？ 如果思想在其中找到了安全感， 然后思想研究了它，并且说， “天哪，它里面并不存在什么安全， 它只是一个概念想法！ ”对吧？ 它是思想所拼凑起来的。 所以，当思想执著于某个意象， 这就是神经质的本质。 对吗？ 我知道它是一种危险， 但我却仍旧紧抓它不放。 你看到这件事的荒谬了吗，先生？ |
| 1:06:00 Q: We’re getting into the fear, then. | 1:06:00 问：那时我们已经陷入于恐惧中了。 |
| 1:06:04 K: So, do you actually... no, wait a minute, do you actually see the absurdity of it? | 1:06:04 克：所以，你是否真的…… 别急，请等一会儿， 你是否真的看到了它的荒谬？ 问：是的，我看到了。 |
| 1:06:11 Q: Yes, I do. | 1:06:11 克：那么它就结束了。 |
| 1:06:13 K: Then it’s the end. | 1:06:13 问：是的，是的。 克：不。那时你就不会再创造意象了。 |
| 1:06:14 Q: Yes, yes. | 1:06:14 等等，等一下。换句话说： 我的妻子骂我是一个白痴。 |
| 1:06:16 K: No. Then you don’t create images. Wait, wait. That is, the wife calls me an idiot. Will I listen to her without forming an image? Or the old tradition, habit, conditioning, response says, ‘Yes, image-making. ’ You follow? When she calls me an idiot, no image-making. Is that possible? Or when she flatters me, which is the same thing the other side of the coin. Now, how… If you will listen, I’II show it to you. Shall we go into it? | 1:06:16 我能够聆听她的话语， 而不形成意象吗？ 或者那种旧的传统、习惯、 局限和反应会说， “会的，意象会创造出来。 ”你跟上了吗？ 当她骂我是一个白痴的时候， 我不制造意象。 这可能吗？ 或者当她奉承讨好我的时候 ——这是同一回事， 是同一个硬币的另一面。 那么现在，你要如何……如果你们愿意听的话， 我会来告诉你们。 |
| 1:07:13 Q: Yes. | 1:07:13 我们要来探究一下它吗？ 问：要。 |
| 1:07:14 K: That is, the wife calls me an idiot because I said, did something which she didn’t like, all the rest of it, calls me an idiot. Thought is conditioned, so the immediate response is an image. Right? ‘I am not an idiot, I am the...’ – there is an image. Now, can I listen to her – please find out, I am going to tell you something – can I listen to her without a response? You understand? Not indifference. Can I listen to her when she says, ‘Darling, you are so lovely,’ – which is another image. Right? 1:08:15 Can I listen to her when she calls me an idiot, when she says, ‘You are marvellous,’ both – you understand? – listen to it without storing it, without registering it? Do you understand my question? You understand, sir? This is very important, do get this a little bit. Which is – do you want to go into all this? | 1:07:14 克：也就是说，妻子称我为白痴， 因为我说了一些她不喜欢的话，或做了一些她不喜欢的事， 诸如此类的东西， 于是她骂我是白痴。 思想是局限的， 所以它立即的反应就是产生出意象。 对吧？ “我并不是一个白痴，我可是……” ——于是就有了一个意象。 那么，我能否聆听她 ——请搞清楚这一点， 我将会来告诉你们一些东西—— 我能否聆听她，而没有任何反应呢？ 你理解了吗？ 不是漠不关心。 当她说，“亲爱的，你是如此迷人”时， 我能否聆听她的话语 ——这是另一种意象。是吧？ 1:08:15 当她称我为白痴， 或者当她说，“你真的太棒了”， 在这两种情况下——你理解了吗？ —— 我能否聆听这些话语，不去储存它，也不去记录它呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你理解了吗，先生？ 这非常重要，请稍稍理解它一下。 也就是—— 你们想要探讨这一切吗？ |
| 1:08:43 Q: Yes. | 1:08:43 问：想要。 |
| 1:08:48 K: The mechanism of the brain is to register. Right? It is registering. And it is so conditioned that it registers, immediately, ‘idiot.’ Or you say, ‘What a marvellous person you are,’ – it is registered. Now, to stop registering. You understand my question? When she calls me an idiot, not to register, or when you calls me marvellous, not to register. Which doesn’t mean I become indifferent, hard, callous. So, I can only do that – please, listen – I can only not register, that’s only possible when I give my complete attention to what she says. 1:09:54 When she calls me – please, listen – when she calls me an idiot or marvellous person, when I pay complete attention, there is no registering. Why? You understand my question? Do it, please, as you are sitting there, do it now. That is, you have got an image about your wife or your girlfriend, or your boyfriend – gosh, this boy and girl, I’m getting bored with this! We go on till we die with this question, boy, girl – you follow? – woman, man. It’s so silly! I am pointing out, the image-making is the process of thought. 1:10:59 Thought has made this image, therefore there is conflict in that. I see the tremendous danger in conflict, whether between India and Pakistan, or whether Russia – you follow? – tremendous danger because they kill each other. So, I ask, can that image-making stop? It can… Why does thought bring about these images? It finds security in these images – right? – security, safety and yet thought knows how absurd it is. Therefore, when thought clings to something which is irrational, it is neurotic. | 1:08:48 克：大脑的机制就是去记录。 对吧？ 它在记录着。 大脑是如此深受制约， 以至于它会立即去记录“白痴”这个词。 或者你会说，“你是一个多么了不起的人啊，” ——它也被记录下来了。 而现在，要停止这种记录。 你理解我的问题吗？ 当她称我为白痴的时候，不要去记录， 或者当你说我很了不起时，也不要去记录。 但这并不意味着我变得漠不关心、 冷酷和无情了。 所以，想要这样做 ——请听好—— 想要不去记录， 这只有当我全神贯注于 她所说的东西时才有可能。 1:09:54 当她叫我——请听好—— 当她叫我“白痴”或者“了不起的家伙”时， 当我全神贯注于她的话， 那时就不会有记录。 为什么呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 去这样做，拜托了， 当你坐在这里的时候，现在就这样去做。 也就是说，你拥有一个关于 你妻子或你女朋友的意象， 或者你男朋友的意象 ——天哪，这种男女之事， 我都有点烦了！ 我们就一直带着这个问题 直到我们死去， 男女朋友——你跟上了吗？ ——女人男人。 这真是太蠢了！ 我所指出的是： 这种「意象的制造」就是思想的过程。 1:10:59 思想已经创造出了这个意象， 而在这之中就会有冲突。 我看到了冲突的巨大危险性， 不管是印度和巴基斯坦的冲突， 还是俄罗斯的冲突——你跟上了吗？ —— 那种巨大的危险，因为他们在彼此杀戮。 所以我问，这种「意象的创造」可以停止吗？ 它是可以的……为什么思想会带来这些意象？ 因为它在这些意象中 找到了安全感——对吧？ ——安全、保障， 然而思想也知道这是多么的荒谬可笑。 因此，当思想执著于某种非理性的事物时， 这就是神经质。 |
| 1:11:56 So, I am saying, asking, since the mind… the brain is so conditioned, it can’t let go and say, ‘Well, I won’t...’ Finished. So, I’m saying, when the wife says, or the man, husband says, or the boy says, and the girl says, ‘You are an idiot,’ not to register. Just see it. Don’t say it is possible, it is not possible, find out. Because if you say if it is possible, then you have already gone off. Or, if you say it is not possible, you have blocked yourself. So, is that possible…? Can that be done? We’re going to investigate. | 1:11:56 所以，我在说、我在问的是， 由于头脑…… 由于大脑是如此的局限， 所以它无法放弃它，它说， “唉，我无法……”然后就结束了。 所以我在说：当妻子说， 或者男人、丈夫说， 或者男朋友或女朋友说， “你是一个白痴”时，请不要去记录。 你只需要看到这一点。 不要说它是可能的，或者它不可能， 去发现它。 因为如果你说它是可能的， 那么你就已经偏离了。 或者如果你说它不可能， 那么你就自我设限了。 所以，它可能吗……？ 这件事能够实现吗？ 我们将会来探究它。 |
| 1:12:58 Why does the brain register ‘idiot,’ the word ‘idiot’ and the word ‘beautiful,’ ‘marvellous,’ ‘You’re a lovely man’? Why? One is an insult, one is a flattery. Because the word ‘idiot’ has a great deal of significance. Right? The word itself is an insulting word. I have an image about myself, and that image rejects the idea that I’m an idiot. You understand? I have not only an image about my wife, my husband, my girl, or whatever it is, and also I have an image about myself. 1:13:53 Right, sir? So, when you call me ‘an idiot,’ the image gets hurt. Right? So, is it possible to end all image-making, about myself, as well as the other, to end totally all image? Don’t say no, or yes. So, what is the momentum, the energy from which the image-making takes place? You understand what I’m talking? No, I am not making myself clear. I will. | 1:12:58 为什么大脑要记录“白痴”一词， 记录“白痴”这个词语，记录“美丽”，“了不起”， “你很迷人”这些词句？ 为什么？ 一种是侮辱，另一种是奉承讨好。 因为“白痴”这个词包含了大量的含义。 对吧？ 这个词本身是一个侮辱性的词语。 而我有着一个关于自己的意象， 这个意象拒绝“我是白痴”这种看法。 你明白了吗？ 我不仅有着关于我妻子或丈夫， 关于我女朋友等人的意象， 我同样也有一个关于我自己的意象。 1:13:53 对吧，先生？ 因此当你称我为“白痴”时， 我的那个意象就受到了伤害。 对吧？ 那么，是否可能结束所有「意象的创造」呢？ 既包括关于自己的意象，也包括关于其他人的意象， 去彻底地结束所有的意象？ 不要说“不可能”，或者“可能”。 所以，是什么动力或能量 促使了「意象创造」的发生呢？ 你理解我所说的东西吗？ 不，我还是没有讲清楚。 我会把它讲清楚的。 |
| 1:14:56 Let’s begin. As long as there is a centre as the ‘me,’ with my image – right? – that is the centre, that image will always get hurt, or flattered. Right? So, as long as there is a centre, it is impossible not to register. Do you get it? Haven’t you got an image about yourself? If you are really honest and look at yourself, haven’t you got an image about yourself? That you are this, that you are rather ugly, that you are not so clever and I wish you were more beautiful, you know, not so bright, not so intelligent, not so – you have got an image about yourself. 1:15:59 So, that image, which is the centre of your being – right? – as long as that image is there, it must register. Which means, registering means division, conflict, violence, and all the rest of it. When you see the whole structure of relationship, the whole of it, then the centre becomes unimportant. You are following all this? The centre has no value. Therefore, there is no registration at all. I am… the speaker is telling, for him, a fact, not just an idea. 1:16:55 Because I have lived through this. K, this person, has lived through this. I have been insulted, hurt, brutalised, kicked about, called, ‘Oh, marvellous, you are the great teacher’ – everything. There is no registration because there is no centre. You understand, sir? Therefore, no conflict. You’ve got this? | 1:14:56 让我们开始吧：只要还是存在着一个作为“我”的中心， 以及关于“我”的意象——对吧？ —— 这就是中心， 那么这个意象就总是会受到伤害 或者被奉承讨好。 是吧？ 所以只要还是存在着一个中心， 我们就不可能不去记录。 你明白它了吗？ 你难道没有一个 关于你自己的意象吗？ 如果你真的很诚实， 并且观察一下自己的话， 你难道没有一个关于自己的意象吗？ 比如你是这样的， 你是相当丑陋的， 你不是那么的聪慧， 我希望你可以更漂亮一点， 你知道的，不是那么聪明， 不是那么智慧，不是那么—— 你有着一个关于你自己的意象。 1:15:59 因此，那个意象，它就是你存在的中心 ——对吧？—— 只要那个意象还是在那里， 它就必定会去记录。 这意味着：记录就意味着分裂、 冲突、暴力，等等诸如此类的东西。 而当你看到了关系的整个结构， 看到了它的全部， 那么这个中心就会变得不重要了。 你跟上这一切了吗？ 那个中心便没有什么价值了。 所以就完全不会有任何记录。 我正在……演讲者正在讲述的东西， 对他来说，这是一个事实，而不只是一个理念。 1:16:55 因为我已经经历过这些了。 克（即克里希那穆提），这个人， 已经体验过这些事情了。 我曾经被侮辱、伤害， 被残酷地对待，被踢来踢去， 人们也会说，“哦，太了不起了，你是一个伟大的导师” ——所有这些东西。 但他并没有记录，因为并不存在一个中心。 你理解了吗，先生？ 由此便不会有冲突。 你理解它了吗？ |
| 1:17:29 So, we began with asking, what is thought and what is experiencing? Right? In the moment of experiencing anything – it doesn’t matter – sex, looking at that lovely branch, or the evening sunset, and the delight of an early morning, when there is an experiencing, actually, that is the second, in that there is no thought. Then thought comes along and says, ‘How marvellous that was.’ It holds it. The moment it says, ‘How marvellous,’ 1:18:24 it has captured it, and therefore wants to repeat it. Right, sir? So, to look at that sunset, or the morning light on a leaf, the experience of it and ending it, not carry it over. All that demands tremendous attention. And attention is not possible when there is a centre which says, ‘I must attend, I must get’ – you follow? Right, sir? Right? | 1:17:29 所以，我们一开始就在问： 什么是思想？ 什么是经验？对吧？ 在经验任何事物的时刻 ——什么事物并不重要—— 性爱、欣赏可爱的树枝， 傍晚的落日， 或者体验清晨的喜悦， 当有了某种经验， 事实上， 在经验的那一刻， 其中是没有「思想」的。 然后思想才会出现，然后说， “它（那种体验）是多么的美妙。 ” 思想会执著于它。当思想说“多么美妙”的那一刻， 1:18:24 它便捕捉到了这种经验， 然后它就会想要重复这种经验。 对吧，先生？ 所以，去欣赏日落， 或者树叶上的晨光， 去经验它，然后就结束它， 而不要继续携带着它。 所有这一切需要巨大的「关注」。 然而如果有了一个中心， 这中心在说，“我必须要关注，我必须要得到它”， 那么「关注」就不可能了——你们理解了吗？ 对吧，先生？对吗？ |
| 1:19:09 What time is it, sir? | 1:19:09 现在几点了，先生？ 问：十二点二十分。 |
| 1:19:10 Q: Twenty past twelve. | 1:19:10 克：哦。 |
| 1:19:12 K: Oh. I believe next Tuesday, for this dialogue we are going to talk over together about education. | 1:19:12 我想下周二的时候， 在我们的对话中， 我们将会来一起讨论下「教育」。 |
| 1:19:33 Q: Sir, the lady would like me to ask, is image part of hurt? Is image and hurt the same thing? | 1:19:33 问：先生，有位女士想要我问一下： 意象是不是伤害的一部分？ 意象和伤害是同一回事吗？ |
| 1:19:46 K: The image and the hurt? | 1:19:46 克：意象和伤害？ |
| 1:19:48 Q: Are they the same thing? | 1:19:48 问：它们是同一个东西吗？ 克：当然了。 |
| 1:19:49 K: Of course. The moment you have an image, you’re going to be flattered or injured. | 1:19:49 一旦你有了一个意象， 你就会被奉承讨好 或者受到伤害。 |
| 1:19:57 Right, sir. | 1:19:57 就这样吧，先生。 |
