Krishnamurti Subtitles
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OJ77T3 - 人类是否可能在心理上彻底转变自己？
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| 0:35 The last two times that we met here, last Saturday and Sunday, we were talking over, together, the question of security, both physiological, as well as psychological security. We went into that, quite considerably, in detail, and, last Sunday, we were talking about conflict. And those of you who have come here for the first time, I hope you will not mind if we don’t go over that again. | 0:35 前两次当我们在这里见面的时候， 上周六和上周日的时候， 我们一起讨论了关于「安全感」的问题， 既包括生理上的安全感， 也包括心理上的安全感。 我们对它进行了大量的、细致的探讨， 而上周日，我们谈论了「冲突」。 而你们中那些第一次来到这里的人， 我希望你们不要介意 ——如果我们不再重温讨论这些话题的话。 |
| 1:40 We were saying how important it is in a world that is becoming so utterly chaotic, that there should be, and there must be, human transformation, a great, deep psychological revolution. A revolution is not the bloody kind, the physical kind, which man has experimented with centuries upon centuries, trying to change the environment through conflict, bloodshed, violence of every kind. And, apparently, he has not succeeded at all. Though he has environmentally brought about certain destructive change, he has not radically, psychologically, brought about deep transformation of man. 3:01 And we are concerned in these gatherings, with that, whether man can radically transform himself, psychologically. Because if he does not bring about that transformation, that revolution, psychologically, inevitably, we’ll have more and more conflicts, more and more wars, and conflict in all relationship, whether intimate or superficial. | 1:40 我们之前说过： 在一个正在变得如此彻底混乱的世界中， 应该要有——且必须要有——一次人类的转变， 一场巨大的、深刻的心理革命。 这是何等的重要。 这种革命并不是流血牺牲那种， 那种外在物质上的革命， 无数世纪以来，人们都在尝试这种革命， 试图通过冲突、 流血，以及各种暴力来改变环境。 但很显然，他根本没有成功。 尽管他给环境带来了某种破坏性的改变， 但他并没有从根本上、从心理上 带来人类深层次的转变。 3:01 而在这几次谈话聚会中， 我们所关心的是： 人类是否可以根本性地转变他自己， 在心理上转变自己。 因为如果他不带来这种心理上的转变， 这种革命的话， 那么我们就不可避免地会有 越来越多的冲突， 越来越多的战争，以及所有关系中的冲突 ——不管是亲密的还是肤浅表面的关系。 |
| 3:37 And also, we were saying – I hope you don’t mind, those of you who have heard it before – that wherever you go in the world, whether in the East or in Europe or here, one finds man, which includes the woman, and I hope you don’t mind if I don’t say each time, ‘woman’ – the man or woman, is about the same throughout the world, psychologically – they suffer, they are in great turmoil, uncertainty, anxious, great deal of sorrow and great many tears, loneliness, despair, and eventually facing death. And so, as one observes this fact, one sees that man – you or the woman – is the whole world, he is the world, and the world is him. 5:20 If one realises that, very deeply, not intellectually or merely verbally, then that brings about an extraordinary quality of vitality, to face things, to face the world as it is. And that’s what we have been saying during the last two talks, here. Now, this morning, if we may, we’ll go into the question of what is consciousness, the content of consciousness, and whether that consciousness can be radically transformed. We left off there last Saturday… last Sunday, and we’ll go on with that, if we may. | 3:37 此外，我们也说了 ——我希望你们中那些之前已经听过它的人不要介意—— 无论你去世界上的任何地方， 不管是去东方、欧洲还是来这里， 你会发现人 ——这里说的人（man）也包含了女人（woman）， 我希望你们不要介意，我不会每次都补充说“女人”—— 你会发现：从心理上来说， 全世界的男人或女人都是差不多的， 他们都在受苦，他们都处于巨大的混乱中， 他们感到不确定，焦虑，大量的痛苦， 无数的眼泪，孤独，绝望， 最后还要面对死亡。 因此，当一个人观察到这个事实， 他会发现：人 ——你们或者女人—— 就是全世界， 他就是世界，而这个世界就是他。 5:20 如果我们非常深刻地认识到了这一点 ——不是思想智力上，或者仅仅口头文字上认识到它， 它就会带来一种非凡的充满活力的品质， 能够去面对各种事物， 能够如实地去面对这个世界。 这就是我们过去在这里的两场演讲中 一直在说的东西。 而现在，今天早上，如果可以的话，我们将会来探讨这个问题： 什么是「意识」，意识的内容， 以及这种意识是否可以被彻底地转化。 上周六……上周日的时候，我们就谈到这里， 所以，如果可以的话，我们将会继续讲下去。 |
| 6:34 One often wonders whether human beings, you and I and others, are aware of themselves. Most people are aware rather superficially: their petty desires, superficial conflicts, their physical demands, sexual appetites and all the rest of it. They’re superficially cognisant, know, what they are going through. But there is also far deeper layers of one’s being, which is consciousness, to be conscious of oneself. That is, to know or to be aware of the whole nature and the structure of consciousness, of what one is – that is consciousness. 7:55 To be aware implies watchfulness, to observe. To observe what is going on within oneself, not biologically but psychologically – the thoughts, the motives, the conflicts, the desires, the opposing purposes, ideals and facts, saying one thing, doing another, thinking one thing and contradicting in daily life. The whole process of this is consciousness, which is fairly obvious. We are using the word ‘consciousness’ which means to be conscious of oneself, and all the turmoil that is going on within oneself. | 6:34 某人常常在想：人类——你和我，还有其他人， 人类是否对自己有所觉察。 绝大多数人的觉察都是相当肤浅表面的： 他们能意识到自己小小的欲望， 表面上的冲突，身体的需要， 性欲，等等这些东西。 他们只是表面上认识到、知道自己正在经历着什么。 然而还有着一种远远更深层次的人类的存在， 也就是「意识」，去意识到自己。 也就是说，去知晓或者觉察到 意识的全部本质和结构， 觉察到自己的真实模样 ——也就是「意识」。 7:55 「觉察」就意味着保持警觉，去观察。 去观察自己内在正在发生的事情， 不是生物学上的事情，而是心理上的事情 ——那些想法、动机、 冲突、欲望、彼此对立的目的、 理想和现实， 说的是一套，做的又是另一套， 想的是一套， 日常生活中的表现却背道而驰。 这整个过程就是「意识」， 这是显而易见的。 我们正在使用「意识」这个词， 它意味着去意识到自己， 以及自己内心所发生的所有混乱。 |
| 9:08 To observe it implies – or to be aware of it – if there is any choice in that observation that the factor of that choice distorts observation. I think that’s fairly clear. That is, if one is to observe one’s own deep layers of consciousness with all the struggles, the pains, the anxieties, the laughter, the tears and the ambitions and the mischief that’s going on within oneself. To observe it, to be aware of it, and if one chooses, then the observation is distorted. That’s fairly simple. Right? Can we proceed from there? | 9:08 去观察它意味着 ——或者说去觉察它—— 如果这种观察中有了任何「选择」， 那么这个「选择」的因素就会扭曲观察。 我认为这是很清楚的事。 换句话说，如果我们要去观察 自己深层次的意识， 及其所有的斗争、痛苦、焦虑、 欢笑、眼泪和野心， 以及我们内心正在发生着的伤害， 去观察它，去觉察它， 而如果我们进行了选择， 那么我们的观察就会被扭曲。 这是很简单的道理。 是吧？我们可以从这里继续下去吗？ |
| 10:11 So, observation implies no choice. And, when you observe this whole process of oneself, the whole content of oneself, the various factors, influences that bring about this consciousness, is that consciousness - please listen, give a little attention to this – is that consciousness different from the observer? You understand my question? One observes the mountain, the shadows, the movement of the clouds and so on, one observes. When you observe, there is a ‘you,’ the observer and the thing observed. 11:25 The observer, as we said, is the past, all the memories, experiences, knowledge, stored up in the brain as memory, which is the past. And, when you observe through memory, there is a division between the observer and the observed. Right? So, to observe without the observer is a real problem, which we’ll go into, presently, if we’ve not done it already, in the previous two talks, because this is really quite important because it is the factor of conflict. 12:19 Where there is division there must be conflict, as in nations, when you have various types of beliefs, in religious beliefs, there is always division, always conflict. So, to live in complete, deep peace, the observer is the observed and therefore no conflict. So, we are going to examine, together, this question of… go into this consciousness, together. | 10:11 所以，观察就意味着没有选择。 而当你观察自己的整个过程， 自己的全部内容，各种因素、 各种影响——正是它们带来了这种意识， 那么这种意识 ——请听好，稍微集中一下注意力—— 这种「意识」是否和观察者是不同的？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 我们观赏高山，那些影子， 云彩的移动，等等， 我们观察这一切。 当你观察的时候，存在着一个「你」， 观察者和被观察物。 11:25 观察者——就如我们说过的——他就是「过去」， 所有的回忆、经验、知识， 它们作为「记忆」储存在大脑中 ——记忆就是过去。 而当你透过记忆来观察时， 就会存在一种 观察者和被观察物之间的分裂。 对吧？ 所以，要不带观察者地去观察， 这才是真正的问题所在， 而我们马上就会来探讨这一点， 因为我们在过去的两场演讲中 还没有完成这件事， 因为这真的很重要， 因为它是造成冲突的因素。 12:19 当有了分裂，就必定会有冲突， 就像在国家中一样，当你有各种类型的信仰， 各种宗教信仰时， 那么就总是会有分裂，总是会有冲突。 所以，要生活在完全的、深度的和平中， 那时观察者就是被观察物， 由此便没有了冲突。 所以我们将要一起来检视这个问题 去一起探究这种「意识」。 |
| 12:58 Please, if I may point out again, this is a very serious talk. One has to give considerable attention, in which is implied care, affection. And we’re taking a journey together. I’m not taking a journey and you’re following me, we are together exploring this. Therefore, it is your responsibility, if you’re at all serious, to go into this. And, as we said, the other day, too, the speaker, in exploring together with you, has no authority. 13:56 Right? Though he sits on a platform, which is for convenience only, don’t make him into an authority, then you’re not capable of exploring. Because your consciousness is the consciousness of mankind. I think that is the basic thing one has to understand: what you are, the world is. Your consciousness is in conflict, disarray, confused, disordered, and in your relationship, in all the things you do, there is disorder. And in the world there is disorder. 14:57 So, what you are, the world is. So, we are together going to explore this question of what is consciousness and what are its contents, and are the contents different from consciousness, and is the content consciousness, and whether it’s possible to go beyond this small, little, conditioned consciousness. That’s what we’re going to explore during the next three, four talks. So, please, be a little serious. | 12:58 请注意，如果我可以再次指出这一点的话， 这是一场非常严肃的谈话。 我们必须要全神贯注才行， 这其中就包含着关心与情感。 我们正在一起踏上这段旅程。 并不是我走在路上， 而你们跟着我走， 而是我们一起去探索它。 因此，这是你的责任， 如果你真的很严肃地去探究它的话。 而前几天我们也说过： 在和你们一起探索的过程中， 这位演讲者是没有权威的。 13:56 对吧？ 尽管他坐在讲台上， 但这仅仅是为了方便， 请不要把他变成一个权威， 那样你就无法去探索了。 因为你的意识就是全人类的意识。 我认为这是我们必须懂得的一件很基本的事情： 你是什么模样，这个世界就是什么模样。 你的意识处于冲突之中，它无序、困惑、混乱， 在你的关系中，在你做的所有事情中， 都存在着混乱失序。 而这个世界也是混乱失序的。 14:57 所以，你是什么，这个世界就是什么。 所以，我们正在一起去探究 这个关于“什么是意识”的问题， 意识的内容是什么？ 意识的内容和意识是不同的吗？ 意识的内容是不是就是意识？ 以及我们是否可能去超越 这个渺小的、卑微的、局限的意识。 这就是接下来三四场演讲中， 我们将会探讨的东西。 所以请你们稍微严肃一点。 |
| 15:57 I’m afraid most Americans – forgive me, for saying so – are not very serious people. They’d rather be amused, entertained, acquire a lot of superficial knowledge from books, or go to classes, be told about psychology and other matters. And they think they’re terribly learned. They know all the facts in the world. But they know very little about themselves, actually. They know about themselves according to Freud, Jung and all the rest of it, but when you put all those authorities out, and when you look at yourself, you hardly know yourself. 16:54 So, if you don’t mind our pointing out, be a little serious, if you can. Don’t hold to your particular theory or to your particular conclusion, or add what we are saying to that which you already know, or what we’re saying, adapt it to your particular guru, or, you know, all that business. So, just… we are as friends looking into this. We’re not doing propaganda for you, or trying to convince you of anything. So, if you’re a little serious and are willing to pay a little attention for some time, a duration, because you cannot give half a minute attention and then think about something else. 18:04 This requires very considerable, deep enquiry, which demands your care, your affection, your sense of responsibility. | 15:57 我恐怕绝大多数美国人 ——请原谅我这么说—— 都不是非常严肃的人。 他们宁可去找点乐子，找点娱乐， 从书本上获得大量肤浅表面的知识， 或者去参加各种课程，让别人告诉他 心理学和其他方面的东西。 然后他们会觉得自己非常博学。 他们知道关于这个世界的所有事实。 但事实上，他们却对自己知之甚少。 他们根据弗洛伊德、 荣格等权威来了解他们自己， 然而当你把所有这些权威人士都扔掉， 当你观察你自己时， （你会发现）你几乎对自己一无所知。 16:54 所以如果你不介意我们指出这一点的话： 如果可以的话，请你们稍微认真严肃一点。 不要执著于你特定的理论 或者特定的结论， 或者在你已经知道的东西上面 添加我们所说的东西， 或者调整改变我们所说的东西 让它适合于你古鲁的理念， 或者，你知道的，所有这类事情。 所以，我们就像是朋友一样， 在研究这个问题。 我们并不是在给你宣传洗脑， 或者试图说服你相信任何东西。 因此，如果你稍微严肃认真一点， 并且愿意稍微集中一下注意力， 并保持一段时间的话， 因为你不能只是集中注意力半分钟的时间， 然后就去想其他东西了。 18:04 这件事需要大量的、深刻的探询， 这需要你的关心，你的感情， 你的责任感。 |
| 18:24 So, we said we’re going to observe, be aware of our consciousness. And we said, also, where there is a choice in observation, saying, ‘I prefer this, I don’t like this’ or ‘this is what I… this is right and that’s wrong,’ so choice, psychologically, distorts clarity, observation. So, please, observe without choice. | 18:24 所以，我们说我们将会来观察 和觉察我们自己的「意识」。 而我们也说了：当观察中有了选择， 比方说，“我更喜欢这个，我不喜欢那个”， 或者“这才是我……这是对的，那是错的，” 所以心理上的选择， 它会扭曲我们的清明与观察。 所以请你毫无选择地去观察。 |
| 19:00 In our consciousness there are certain factors, which is the desire for power, position, and there are many hurts that we have received from childhood, wounds, deep psychological hurts. And, also, in that consciousness, there is the everlasting search for pleasure. Please, we are looking together, I am not saying it is. We are enquiring, learning together the whole content of our consciousness. And there is the pursuit of pleasure, and there is this enormous sense of fear. Right? Then, also, there is suffering, not only personal suffering but the suffering of mankind. Man and woman have been through a million, thousands of years, with wars every other year, destruction, and enormous sense of sorrow. 20:35 And in that consciousness, also, there is that thing which is called love, with all its jealousies, hurts, wounds, anger, violence, and so on. And, also, in that consciousness there are innumerable beliefs, dogmas, ideas, conclusions. And, also, there is death, the fear of the unknown, fear of dying, coming to an end. So, this is the content of our consciousness – right? The knowledge that we have acquired from books, the knowledge that we have acquired from experience, stored up in memory, in the brain as memory, which is the whole movement of thought. Right? | 19:00 在我们的意识中，存在着某些因素， 比如对于权力和地位的渴望， 还有很多我们从小所受到的伤害， 那些伤痛，心理上深深的创伤。 同样的，在那种意识中， 我们也会永无休止地寻求快感。 请注意，我们正在一起观察它， 我并没有说它就是如此。 我们正在一起探询、学习 我们意识的全部内容。 我们会追求快感， 同样也会感受到巨大的恐惧。 是吧？ 此外，我们还会有痛苦， 不仅是个人的痛苦， 也包括全人类的痛苦。 成千上万年以来，男人和女人一直在经历着 每隔一年所发生的战争，破坏毁灭， 深重的苦难。 20:35 而在那种「意识」中，同样也有着 那个叫做「爱」的东西， 但这种「爱」中却有着嫉妒、痛苦、伤害、 愤怒、暴力，等等。 此外，在那种「意识」中还有着无数的信仰、 教条、理念、结论。 另外，还有着死亡， 对于未知事物的恐惧， 害怕死去，害怕一切会结束。 所以，这就是我们意识的内容——对吧？ 我们从书本中所获得的知识， 我们从经验中所获得的知识， 它被储存在记忆中， 应该是它作为「记忆」储存在大脑中， 它就是思想的全部运动。对吧？ |
| 21:47 So, the whole content of our consciousness are these things. So, we’re going to examine the major factors, not all the details because that is endless, the major factors, like power, the demand for power, which most of us want, a position. Power implies success, domination, power over others, or power over oneself, and so on. And, also, there is in that, hurt, being hurt. From childhood, we are hurt, and being hurt, we have become violent. 22:42 We’ll go into that slowly, step by step. So, we’re going to examine first the desire for power. Right? The desire to dominate, the desire to assert, the aggressiveness, all that is sense of power. The dictators throughout the world are, they’re representatives of that power. And, as long as they’ve not solved the problem of power, there’s going to be conflict, not only in the world of dictatorship, totalitarianism, but also in the world of so-called democracy, individual voting and all that, there is also the desire for power, possession, domination. 23:48 This is an important factor to understand and, if it at all possible, to be free of it. Is it possible to be free of this desire for power? Which is to possess another, to dominate another, to carry out your particular ideals, and assert those ideals. You follow? All that, which is the expression of will. | 21:47 所以，我们意识的全部内容就是这些东西。 因此，我们要来检视一下这些主要的因素， 但不用去检视所有的细节， 因为那是无穷无尽的， 主要的因素，比如权力，以及对权力的需求， 这是我们大多数人想要的，地位。 权力意味着成功、支配力， 能够掌控他人，或者掌控自己，等等。 此外，在意识中也会有「伤害」，我们会被伤害。 我们从小开始就受到伤害， 由于受到了伤害，我们就变得暴力了。 22:42 我们将会一步一步地慢慢来探讨它。 所以我们首先会来检视一下这种「对权力的渴望」。 可以吗？ 渴望去支配，渴望坚持主张， 侵略性，所有这些都是权力感。 全世界的那些独裁者， 他们就代表着这种权力。 而只要他们还是没有解决权力的问题， 那么就会有冲突， 不仅是在专政和极权主义的世界， 它也存在于所谓的“民主国家”的世界中， 全民公投，诸如此类的东西， 在那里同样也有着对权力、占有和支配的渴望。 23:48 这是我们需要了解的一个很重要的因素， 以及我们究竟有没有可能摆脱掉它。 我们是否可能摆脱掉这种对权力的渴望？ 也就是去占有他人，去支配他人， 去实现你特定的理想， 并坚持维护那些理想。 你跟上了吗？ 所有这些，就是「意志」的表现。 |
| 24:21 You understand this? Are you following all this? I hope you are, because it’s your life, not my life. And if one observes how you waste your life. You understand? So, in talking over together, amicably, with friendship, with affection, with compassion, together, don’t waste your life. And not to waste it, implies the understanding of one’s consciousness and going beyond it. So, it’s a very, very serious matter. | 24:21 你理解了吗？ 你们跟上这一切了吗？ 我希望你们跟上了， 因为这是你的生活，而不是我的生活。 你是否看到了自己是如何浪费生命的。 你理解了吗？ 所以在我们一起讨论的过程中， 友善地， 友好地、带着感情和同情一起讨论时， 请不要浪费你的生命。 不浪费它就意味着要去了解我们的意识， 并且超越它。 所以这是一件非常非常严肃的事情。 |
| 25:12 So, in one’s life, in one’s daily life, is it possible to be free of the desire for power? Power includes domination, possession, assertion, aggressiveness, all that. So, to understand power, one must understand the whole movement of desire. Right? You’re following all this? Some of you, at least? Because most of us want to fulfil our desires, and when those desires are not fulfilled, we feel frustrated and, from that frustration, there comes all kinds of neurotic activity. So, it’s very important, it seems to me, to understand the nature and the structure of desire, which eventually is will, and will is the essence of power. You’re following all this? | 25:12 那么，在我们的生活中， 在我们的日常生活中， 我们是否可能摆脱掉对权力的渴望？ 权力之中就包含了支配、占有、 坚持主张、侵略性，等等这些东西。 所以，要了解权力， 我们就必须了解欲望的全部运动。 对吧？ 你们跟上这一切了吗？ 至少有一些人跟上了？ 因为我们大多数人都想要满足自己的欲望， 而当这些欲望没有得到满足时， 我们就会感到挫败沮丧， 从这种挫败沮丧中 就会出现各种神经质的行为。 所以在我看来，这一点是很重要的： 那就是 要去了解欲望的本质和结构， （你会发现）欲望最终就是意志， 而意志就是权力的本质。 你们理解这一切了吗？ |
| 26:36 So, you must go into this question of desire. We’re not saying that you must not have desire, but to understand it, to go into it, see the results of desire, how desire arises, what is its nature. Not, as the monks throughout the world, religious monks have said, suppress desire. We’re not saying that, on the contrary. When you suppress desire, it must explode in other directions, but to understand, to go into it, to see the whole nature of it, then it becomes something else. 27:34 So, we’re going to go together in the understanding of desire. You know what desire is, don’t you? Most of you, don’t you? Desire for clothes, desire for cars, desire for man or woman, desire for position, knowledge, desire saying, ‘I wish I was as clever as that man,’ and so on, so on. So, what is this desire, and how does it arise? | 26:36 所以你必须要深入这个关于「欲望」的问题。 我们并没有说 你必须不能有欲望， 而是你要去了解欲望、探究欲望， 看到欲望的结果， 欲望是如何出现的，它的本质是什么。 但不是像全世界的那些僧侣一样， 宗教僧侣们曾经说过：要压抑克制欲望。 我们在说的并不是这个， 而是恰恰相反。 当你压抑欲望后， 欲望必定会在其他方向上爆发出来， 所以我们应该去了解它、探究它， 去看到它全部的本质， 然后它就会转化为其他东西了。 27:34 所以我们将会一起来了解欲望。 你们都知道欲望是什么吧，你们不知道吗？ 你们大多数人都应该知道，不是吗？ 渴望衣服，渴望汽车， 渴望得到一个男人或女人， 渴望地位，渴望知识， 说，“我希望我可以像那个人一样聪明”， 等等，等等。 那么，这个「欲望」是什么呢， 它又是如何出现的？ |
| 28:19 Please, if I may ask you, or suggest, don’t repeat something that you don’t know, that you have not directly seen, because we are all second-hand human beings. We repeat slogans, what people have said, what you have learnt from books. You have never discovered anything for yourself. And that’s what we’re going to do, find out for yourself, and then it is irrevocable, it cannot be destroyed. It is inviolable, it can never be damaged, if something that you find for yourself. | 28:19 拜托了，如果允许我请求或建议下的话， 不要去重复一些你并不知道的东西， 一些你还没有直接看到的东西， 因为我们全都是“二手人类”。 我们重复那些口号， 重复别人说过的东西， 重复你从书本中学到的知识。 你从来没有自己去发现过任何东西。 而这就是我们即将做的事情： 那就是 我们自己去发现它， 那时这种发现就是不可更改的， 它不会被摧毁。 它是不可侵犯的， 如果某个东西是你自己发现的， 那它就永远不会被破坏。 |
| 29:18 So, we’re asking what is desire? How does it come? Because it’s one of the major factors in our life – the want, the want of so many things. Not because you’re lonely you want something, or that you are in bad health, therefore you want something, to be in health – we are not talking… we’re asking, what is desire itself? It is really very simple, if you look at it, if you observe it, very closely. Desire arises, doesn’t it, through perception, through contact, through sensation, and thought. And thought then creates the image. Right? Are you following all this? Seeing, contact, sensation, then desire, and the creation of the image out of that desire, and wanting that. 31:15 Do you get this? No, see it in yourself, please, not because I point it out. You look at a car, you look at a woman, you look at a house, there’s the visual perception, sensation, then there’s the contact and the desire, desire then creates the image of having that car or that house or that woman or that man. Right? Do you see this? Actually, not because I tell you. And, thought then pursues the fulfilment of that desire. Right? And out of that comes conflict, not being able to fulfil and being able to fulfil. Right. | 29:18 所以我们正在问：什么是欲望？ 欲望是如何出现的？ 因为它是我们生活中最主要的因素之一 ——那种「欲求」， 我们想要那么多的东西。 不是因为你感到孤独， 所以你想要某些东西， 或者因为你健康状况不佳， 所以你想要一些东西， 来变得健康——我们并没有在说这些东西…… 我们在问：「欲望」本身是什么？ 这个问题其实非常简单， 如果你可以去看一下它， 如果你可以非常仔细地观察下它的话。 欲望的出现是通过 看到，接触， 感觉升起，然后是思想，不是吗？ 然后思想便会创造出某种意象。 对吧？你们跟上这一切了吗？ 看到、触碰、感觉，然后是欲望， 然后经由欲望创造出一个意象， 你变得想要那个东西。 31:15 你明白它了吗？ 不，请在你自己内心看到这一点， 而不只是因为我指出了它。 你看到一辆汽车， 你看到一个女人， 你看到一幢房子， 你会有一种视觉上的感知，某种感觉， 你接触了他们，然后欲望就升起了， 接着欲望便创造出了某种意象 ——即你拥有了那辆车， 拥有了那幢房子，拥有了那个女人 或者男人。 对吧？ 你看到这一点了吗？ 真正看到了它，而不是因为我告诉了你。 然后思想便会追求那种欲望的满足。 对吧？ 而从这之中就产生出了冲突， 无法满足欲望和欲望满足的冲突。好了。 |
| 32:33 So, desire with its will, is the search for power. Right? You get it? That is, to dominate people, in the name of God, in the name of peace, in the name of ideal revolution, and so on. So, is it possible to live – please listen to it – is it possible to live without will? Right? That means to live without direction. Which doesn’t mean living chaotically. We’ll leave it at that, for the moment. We’ll come back to it, later. | 32:33 所以，欲望及其意志， 就是对权力的追寻。 对吧？ 你理解了吗？ 也就是去支配别人， 以上帝的名义， 以和平的名义， 以“理想革命”的名义，等等。 所以，我们是否可能过这样的生活 ——请听好了—— 我们是否可能不带意志地生活？ 对吧？ 这意味着没有方向的生活。 但它并不意味着混乱的生活。 我们暂时就先讲到这里。 之后我们再回来讲它。 |
| 33:44 And, also, one of the factors in our consciousness is the many hurts that one has received. Right? The wounds. Are you aware of…? Are we following each other? Right. The wounds, the psychological wounds that one has received from childhood, in the schools, colleges, universities, and as we grow up, in business, in family, the hurts that one has accumulated. Right? Are you aware of it? And the result of those hurts, what takes place when you’re hurt? 34:42 Either you resist, build a wall around yourself and not to be hurt any more, and, therefore, withdraw from life. Right? And the more you withdraw, the more neurotic you become. Are you following all this? And isolate yourself, not to be hurt. And then one asks, is it possible not to be hurt at all in life? We are aware that we are hurt. That is, when in school an educator compares one boy with another boy, that boy is hurt. Right? You see this, don’t you? 35:47 When the parents say, ‘You’re not as clever as your brother,’ that’s a hurt. And, when somebody calls you an idiot, that’s a hurt. And so on, there are a great many psychological, deep wounds. And, when there are wounds of such kind, the action from those wounds is to protect oneself, withdraw oneself, to resist. And, out of that resistance, there is violence. You are following all this? | 33:44 此外，我们意识中还有一个因素， 它就是我们曾经受到过的无数伤害。 对吧？ 那些创伤。 你意识到它了吗……？ 我们是否彼此理解了？很好。 创伤，那些我们从小开始 所受到的心理上的创伤， 在学校、学院或大学里受到的伤害， 而当我们长大成人后， 又会在工作中、在家庭中受到伤害， 我们积累起了这些伤害。 对吧？ 你意识到它了吗？ 而这些伤害的后果， 当你受到伤害后会发生什么呢？ 34:42 你要么会抗拒它， 在你自己周围建造一道围墙， 以免再受到伤害， 由此你便逃离了生活。 是吧？ 而你越是逃离，你就越会变得神经质。 你们跟上这些了吗？ 你会孤立自己，以免再受到伤害。 那么我们要问了： 我们是否可能在生命中完全不受到任何伤害？ 我们会觉察到自己受到了伤害。 也就是：在学校的时候， 当教师拿一个男孩和另一个男孩相比较时， 其中一个男孩就会受到伤害。对吧？ 你可以明白这一点，不是吗？ 35:47 当父母说，“你没有你弟弟那么聪明”时， 这也是一种伤害。 当有人说你是个白痴时，这也是一种伤害。 等等，存在着无数心理上的、深深的创伤。 而当有了这类创伤后， 从中产生出来的行为就是保护自己， 去逃离它，去抵抗它。 而从这种抵抗中，就会产生暴力。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ |
| 36:28 Now I am… we are asking, is it possible not to be hurt at all? And to totally wipe out the past hurts? You understand the question? The past hurts to be wiped away and never again to be hurt. Right? I wonder if you see this. You have understood my question? And it’s very important to understand this because if we don’t understand this, we have no proper relationship with another. Now, we’re going to go into this question whether it’s possible never to be hurt again and to wipe out the hurts that one has received from childhood. Are you following this, carefully? I hope you’re interested, because it’s your life. | 36:28 而现在，我在……我们在问： 是否可能完全不受伤害？ 去彻底消除掉过去所有的创伤？ 你们理解这个问题吗？ 过去的创伤被消除了， 并且永远不会再被伤害。 对吧？ 我不知道你是否看到了这一点。 你理解我的问题吗？ 而了解这一点是非常重要的， 因为如果我们不明白这一点， 我们就无法和他人产生真正的关系。 现在，我们将要来探究这个问题： 即我们是否可能永远不再受到伤害， 并消除掉我们从小开始所受到的那些伤害。 你们有没有小心仔细地跟上它？ 我希望你们对此感兴趣， 因为这是你的生活。 |
| 37:53 What is hurt? You understand my question? When you say, ‘I am hurt,’ what is it that is hurt? Is it not, we’re asking the question so that we two enquire into this. I am not, the speaker is not asserting but we’re enquiring, is it not that you have an image about yourself and it is that image that is hurt? Right? You are following? You see this? You have an image about being clever or not clever, being beautiful or not beautiful, you have an image or a picture or an idea about yourself. Right? And it is that image, that picture is hurt. Right? I wonder if you see this. It’s fairly simple, isn’t it? 39:05 So, we’re asking, seeing the consequences of being hurt, which is violence, withdrawal, resistance, isolation and all the neurotic behaviour that comes from that isolation, seeing all that, it becomes very important to find out, and urgently, whether such hurts can be wiped away, altogether, and therefore never in life to be hurt. Do you understand what it means? To have an innocent mind, a mind that is untouched, which has never been hurt. The word ‘innocence’ comes from the word, the root of it means ‘a mind that has never been hurt.’ Right? See the beauty of it, first. | 37:53 什么是伤害？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 当你说，“我受到了伤害”时， 那个受到伤害的东西是什么呢？ 它不就是…… 我们正在问这个问题，这样我们双方就可以去探询它。 我并没有……演讲者并没有下什么断言， 我们正在探询它， 它不就是因为你有着一个“自我的意象”， 而受到伤害的其实是那个意象？ 对吧？ 你们理解了吗？ 你们看到这一点了吗？ 你有着一个“自我意象”： 我很聪明或者我不聪明， 我很美或者我不美， 你有着一个关于自己的意象、画像或者看法。 对吧？ 而正是这个意象、这个画像受到了伤害。 对不对？我不知道你是否看到了这一点。 这是相当简单的，不是吗？ 39:05 所以，我们正在问：在看到了受到伤害的结果后， 它的结果就是暴力、逃离、抵抗、孤立， 以及从这种孤立中产生出来的 所有神经质的行为， 在看到了这一切后， 很重要的一点就是要去发现 ——这也是很迫切的事—— 那就是：这些伤害是否可以被彻底地消除， 由此我们在生活中 永远不会再受到伤害。 你知道这意味着什么吗？ 那就是拥有一颗纯真的心灵， 一颗从未被沾染的心灵， 它从来没有受过伤害。 “纯真（innocence）”这个词，它来自于词根 它的词根意思是“一颗未被伤害过的心灵”。 明白了吗？首先，请你看到它的美。 |
| 40:20 So, the image which you call the ‘I’ – ‘I am hurt’ – as long as that image exists, there must be hurt. Right? You see that? As long as I have an image about myself: that I’m clever, that I’m this, I’m that, or that I have a certain reputation, that I’m a great man, that I am this, a dozen images about oneself – as long as you have an image about yourself, you’re going to be hurt. | 40:20 所以，那个意象，也就是你所谓的“我” ——“我受到了伤害”—— 只要那个意象还是存在， 就必然会有伤害。 对吧？ 你看到这一点了吗？ 只要我还是有着一个 关于我自己的意象： 即我很聪明，我是这种人，我是那种人， 或者我拥有一定的名声，我是一个大人物， 我是某某某，一大堆的“自我意象” ——只要你还是有着关于自己的意象， 那你就会被伤害。 |
| 40:59 So, is it possible not to have an image? Which doesn’t mean that you become vacuous, live in a dreamy world, or become a vegetable. We’re asking the question, as long as you’re hurt, the consequences of being hurt are great, ugly. And, when there is no hurt, your actions are extraordinarily clear. So, is it possible not to have an image about yourself, both professionally – you understand? – that is, like a man who is capable, experts, specialists, and when you question them, they all get hurt, also. 42:11 Like an ordinary man, he gets hurt when you say he’s a fool, because he’s got an image of himself, and so on. So, is it possible not to have an image? You understand, sir? If you say, ‘How am I to get rid of the image?’ the ‘how,’ which is the method, the system, when you say ‘how,’ that’s implied. Then that system, that method brings about another image – you follow? – and that image will also be hurt. I wonder if you see this. Right? Is this clear? Can we go on? 43:12 But to see the fact, the actual, that as long as you have an image, you’re going to be hurt, terribly. And, if you want to live a sane life, which means no hurt, and you see the importance of living a sane, clear life without any hurt, naturally, the image disappears. You understand? Bene? If you see the necessity, the importance and the urgency that as long as you have an image you’re going to be hurt, and the consequences of hurt are enormous, if you see that, then you never create an image. 44:18 Is it clear? Are you doing it now? Or, will you say, ‘I’ll think about it when I go home, when I have a little time.’ You have the time, the leisure, the peace now. If you don’t do it now, because you’re being forced to see it, – you understand? – forced, in the sense, together we are investigating, therefore, together we are seeing the fact. And because you see the fact of being hurt and the consequences, the image-making stops. | 40:59 所以我们是否可能不要有意象？ 这并不意味着你要变得虚无主义， 活在一个空幻的世界里， 或者变成一个植物人。 我们正在问这个问题， 即：只要你还在受到伤害， 那么被伤害的结果将是严重的、恶性的。 然而，当没有了任何伤害后， 你的行为就会变得无比明晰。 所以，我们是否可能没有一个 关于自己的意象， 既包括职业上的意象 ——你懂了吗？ —— 也就是说，比如某个人很有能力， 他是一个行家、一个专家， 所以当你质疑他们的时候， 他们也会受到伤害。 42:11 就像普通人一样，如果你说他是个笨蛋， 他就会感觉很受伤， 因为他有着一个关于自己的意象，等等。 那么，我们是否可能不要有意象呢？ 你理解了吗，先生？ 而如果你说，“我要如何才能摆脱掉意象呢？ ” 这个“如何”就是方法、体系， 当你问“如何”时，就暗示了这些东西。 然后那个体系、那个方法， 就会带来另一种意象 ——你跟上了吗？ —— 而那个意象也会受到伤害。 我不知道你们是否明白了这点。 对吧？这点清楚了吗？我们可以继续下去吗？ 43:12 但我们要看到这个事实，这个现实， 即只要你还是有一个意象， 你就会受到深深的伤害。 而如果你想要过一种心智健全的生活 ——这种生活意味着没有伤害， 你也看到了过一种健全、清明 且没有任何伤害的生活的重要性， 那么很自然地，意象就会消失了。 你理解了吗？ 好吧？ 如果你看到了这一点的必要性、重要性和紧迫性 ——即只要你还是有一个意象，你就会受到伤害， 而这种伤害的后果是很严重的， 如果你看到了这一点， 那你就永远不会去制造意象了。 44:18 这点清楚了吗？你现在就在这么做吗？ 或者你会说，“等我回家以后， 等我有点时间以后，我再思考下它吧。 ” 你现在就有时间、空闲和平静。 如果你现在不这样做 ——因为你正被迫去看它， 你理解了吗？ 这里“被迫”的意思是， 我们一起在探究它， 由此我们便可以一起看到这个事实。 而因为你看到了这个事实： 即受到伤害，以及伤害的后果， 于是意象的制造便会停止了。 |
| 45:03 So, one asks – please go into this carefully – the image is built by thought. Right? Right? You are following this? Thought has put together the image that I should be something, that I am something. And what is thought? – which we went into the other day. We’ll go into it again. What is thought? What is thinking, upon which all our social, moral, ethical, religious structure is based on – thinking? All the gods and all the churches, all the symbols, the saviours, the – you know, Christ, the Buddha, all that, the whole religious structure, the popes, the priests and the bishops, the archbishops, you know, it’s all based, is brought about by thought, thought of centuries. 46:30 So, we have to enquire, together, what is thinking. It’s very important, because we’re going to talk over together, fear. After we’ve gone into this question of what is thinking, we’re going to go together into this whole nature of fear, which holds us, so strongly. | 45:03 所以我们问 ——请非常小心仔细地深入它—— 意象是由思想所构建起来的。 对吧？对吗？ 你们跟上它了吗？ 思想已经拼凑出了这个意象： 那就是我应该成为怎样的人， 我是怎样的人。 那么什么是「思想」呢？ ——这个我们前几天已经探讨过了。 我们将会再次来探讨它。 什么是思想？ 什么是思考， 我们所有的社会、道德、 伦理和宗教结构 都是建立在它之上的——思考？ 所有的上帝、所有的教堂， 所有的符号、那些救世主 ——你知道的，基督， 佛陀，所有这些， 这整个宗教的结构， 教皇、牧师、主教、大主教，你知道的， 这一切都是建立在思想上的，都是思想所带来的， 无数世纪以来的思想。 46:30 所以，我们必须要一起去探询：什么是思考？ 探询它是非常重要的， 因为我们将会一起来讨论「恐惧」 ——在我们探究了这个 关于“什么是思考”的问题之后， 我们将会一起来探讨恐惧的全部本质， 恐惧是如此牢牢地掌控着我们。 |
| 46:59 Thought is the response of memory. You understand this? Thought, memory, is the accumulated facts, knowledge, experience. If you’re an engineer, you have learnt a great deal about engineering, pressures, structure, mathematics, from childhood, and that is stored up in your brain, as knowledge, and, according to that knowledge, you act skilfully or not skilfully. Right? Professionals and the amateurs. | 46:59 思想就是记忆的反应。 你理解这一点吗？ 思想，记忆，就是那些积累起来的 事实、知识和经验。 如果你是一个工程师， 你从小开始就学习了大量关于工程学、 压力、结构、数学方面的东西， 而这些东西作为「知识」储存在你的大脑中， 然后你根据这种知识 来熟练或不熟练地行动。 对吧？ 专业人士和业余爱好者。 |
| 47:46 So, thinking is the response of memory, memory being experience – not only your experience, but man’s total experience, and the accumulated knowledge of centuries of which you are the representative as man or woman. Right? So, thinking is the response of memory. Memory is the past. Right? Of course. I remember something. You can’t remember the future, except, perhaps, astrologically and all that kind of stuff. We can leave all that aside. | 47:46 所以，思考就是记忆的反应， 记忆就是经验 ——不只是你的经验， 而是人类全部的经验， 以及无数世纪积累起来的知识， 而你作为男人或女人， 就是这种知识的代表。 对吧？ 所以思考就是记忆的反应。 而记忆就是「过去」。 对吧？这是毫无疑问的。 我记得过去的事情。 你是无法记得未来的事情的， 除非你可能是通过占星术， 等等这类东西。 我们可以先把所有这些放在一边。 |
| 48:41 You know, one must doubt a great deal. You understand? Have doubt. But, if you begin with certainties, you end up in doubt. Right? Do you see that? But if you begin with doubt, doubting everything, not accepting, doubt, then you end up with certainties. But we, unfortunately, begin with certainties and end up with uncertainty, and die. | 48:41 你瞧，我们必须要进行大量的怀疑。 你理解了吗？ 要去怀疑。 但如果你是从「确定」开始，那么你就会以「怀疑」结束。 对吧？ 你看到这一点了吗？ 但如果你是从怀疑开始，去质疑一切事物， 不要接受，而是去怀疑， 那么最后你就能得到确定的事物。 但不幸的是，我们是从「确定」开始的， 并以「不确定」结束，然后就这样死去了。 |
| 49:37 So, we are saying, thought is a response of memory, stored up in the brain cells and we are not experts in brain, but it is a fact, you can observe this in yourself, every day. So, there is the image of yourself that gets hurt. And is it possible to be free of that image? And that image has been created by thought, successive incidents, accidents, assertions, all that bring about the hurt to the image. And thought in relationship, in human relationship, is a distorting factor. May we go into that? 50:45 We’re going to discuss, together, human relationship: the wife and the husband, the boy and the girl. We are saying that thought in relationship – right? – destroys relationship. We’re going to go into that. Because is thought love? Is thought compassion? And, in relationship between two human beings, intimate or otherwise, the movement of thought is the separating factor. Are you following this? By Jove, such a large crowd. I wonder if any of you understand all this. | 49:37 所以我们在说： 思想就是记忆的反应， 它被储藏在大脑细胞中， 虽然我们不是大脑方面的专家， 但这是一个事实， 你每天都可以 在自己身上观察到这一点。 所以，是那个关于你自己的意象 受到了伤害。 那么我们是否可能摆脱掉那个意象呢？ 那个意象是思想制造出来的， 接连不断的事件、意外、断言， 所有这些都给那个意象带来了伤害。 而关系中的思想， 人类关系中的思想， 它是一个导致扭曲的因素。 我们可以来探讨它吗？ 50:45 我们将会一起来讨论人类的关系： 妻子和丈夫，男女朋友。 而我们在说的是： 关系中的思想， 它摧毁了关系。 对吧？ 我们将会来探讨这一点。 因为，思想是「爱」吗？ 思想是「慈悲」吗？ 而在两个人之间的关系中 ——无论这种关系亲密与否， 思想的运动都是导致分裂隔离的因素。 你理解这点了吗？ 天哪，这么大一群人。 我不知道你们中是否有人 理解了这一切。 |
| 52:10 So, we’re going to talk over together the problem of relationship. And it’s one of the most important things in life. If you’re not related properly to nature, the trees, birds, to nature, then you are not properly related to man or woman. And life is relationship, and it becomes very, very important to find out what is right relationship. We’ll start with facts, and we’re only dealing with facts, not with ideas what relations should be, should not be, what it must be – those are all… those are not facts. 53:15 What actually is the relationship between you and your wife or your girl or your boy, actually? Is there any relationship at all? And what does the word ‘relationship’ mean? To be related, to be in contact, to be in touch, both physically as well as psychologically. Right? Not to be separate. Right? The word means that. I am related to you. That word implies tremendous significance. And, we’re going to look at it, factually. What is actually, in daily life, taking place? | 52:10 所以我们将会一起来 讨论一下「关系」的问题。 「关系」是生命中最重要的东西之一。 如果你没有和自然产生正确的关系， 和那些树木、鸟儿，和大自然， 那么你就无法和男人或女人 产生正确的关系。 生活就是「关系」， 而发现这一点是非常非常重要的： 即什么是正确的关系？ 我们将会从事实开始， 并且我们只会处理事实， 而不是从那些概念想法开始 ——关系应该是什么样的， 不应该是什么样的， 它必须是怎样的——所有这些都 这些都不是事实。 53:15 你和你妻子的关系实际上是什么， 或者你和你女朋友或男朋友的关系， 它实际上是什么？ 你们之间究竟是否有任何关系？ 而「关系」这个词意味着什么呢？ 彼此关联，彼此联系， 彼此接触，既包括身体上的接触， 也包括心理上的接触。 对吧？ 两者不要分离。 是吧？ 这个词就意味着这些。 我和你有了「关系」。 这个词就蕴含了巨大的意义。 而我们将会从事实出发 来观察一下它。 看一下在我们日常生活中， 实际上发生的是什么？ |
| 54:37 Whether you’re married or not married, every incident, every word, every assertion in that relationship, which is very delicate, an image is formed, isn’t it? Right? You are following this? You have an image about your wife or your girl, and the girl has an image about you. That’s simple. Right? Are you aware of this? Are you? Be simple, sir. Know it yourself. You don’t have to say ‘yes’ or ‘no,’ but know it for yourself. 55:29 As long as you have an image, there must be division. Right? When you say, ‘I know my wife,’ or my girlfriend, or the boyfriend, when you say, ‘I know,’ in that very assertion you find security. Right? You are following all this? And that security is the result of having… is the factor that there is the image you have about her or him. And that image gives you great sense of security. Doesn’t it? Do you actually know your girlfriend or wife or husband, actually? 56:33 Of course, not. You know all the reactions, all the superficial things because you have an image about her and she has an image about you, and these two images have a relationship which is words, memories, ideas. Right? I wonder if you see all this. Are you unwilling to see all this? Because you have already settled in your own mind you have a marvellous relationship. | 54:37 无论你结婚了没有， 在那段关系中的每一件事、每一个词语、 每一个断言——这种关系是非常精巧微妙的—— 它们都会形成一个意象，不是吗？ 对吧？你理解它了吗？ 你有着一个关于你妻子或女朋友的意象， 而你的女朋友也有着一个关于你的意象。 这是很简单的道理。对吧？ 你们觉察到这一点了吗？ 觉察到了吗？ 简单一点，先生。 自己去看明白这件事。 你不必说“觉察到了”或“没有觉察到”， 而是要自己去明白它。 55:29 即：只要你还是有着一个意象， 就必然会有分裂。对吧？ 当你说，“我了解我的妻子”， 或者我的女朋友或男朋友， 当你说“我了解”的时候， 你就在这种断言中找到了安全感。 对吧？ 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 之所以会有这种安全感，是因为你拥有 是因为你对于她（他）有着一个意象。 而这种意象给了你巨大的安全感。 难道不是吗？ 你是否真的了解你的女朋友、妻子或丈夫， 真正的了解？ 56:33 毫无疑问，你并不了解。 你知道所有那些反应， 所有肤浅表面的事情， 因为你有着一个关于她的意象， 而她也有一个关于你的意象， 而这两个意象有了某种关系 ——也就是文字词语、记忆和观念看法。 对吧？ 我不知道你们是否明白了这一切。 你们不愿去看到这一切吗？ 因为你已经安稳舒适地 停留在自己的头脑中了， 你有着一段美妙的关系。 |
| 57:14 Look, sirs, if you’re a man, you go off to your office or the factory or some work and there you’re ambitious, greedy, envious, wanting success, position. Right? And you come home and she also wants… goes out to work, in America, she has her ambitions, desire for success, position. Right? Where is your relationship? In bed? And is that all the relations you have? And what is your relationship to your children? None at all. Are you following all this? See what we are producing in the world. For God’s sake, it’s your world. 58:19 And thought is the factor in your relationship, not love. And thought is memory. You understand? Remembrance. So, is it possible to live a life with another, intimately or otherwise, without any sense of image? That requires great attention, care. But you’re not willing to give that care and attention because you’re concerned about yourself – right? – and she is concerned about herself. The concerns are both the same, both are ambitious, both are – all the rest of it. You understand? I wonder if you capture all this. Yes? | 57:14 先生们，你们看，如果你是一个男人， 你会动身前往你的办公室上班， 或者去工厂，或者去做某些工作， 在那里你是野心勃勃的、贪婪的、嫉妒的， 你渴望成功、地位。 对吧？ 然后你回家了，而她同样也想要 出去工作，在美国都是这样， 她也有着自己的野心，对成功和地位的渴望。 对吧？ 所以你们的关系在哪里呢？ 在床上吗？ 它（床上的关系）就是你们所拥有的全部关系吗？ 而你们和自己孩子的关系又是什么？ 你们之间并没有任何关系。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 看看我们正在给这个世界制造些什么。 看在上帝的份上，这是你们的世界。 58:19 「思想」才是你们关系中的要素，而不是「爱」。 而思想就是记忆。 你理解了吗？ 回忆。 所以，我们是否可能 在与另一个人生活的时候 ——不管你们关系亲密与否—— 我们可能没有任何意象感吗？ 这需要高度的注意力和关注。 但你并不愿意付出这种关注和注意力， 因为你关心的是你自己——对吧？ —— 而她关心的也是她自己。 这种（对自己的）关心双方都是一样的， 两者都是野心勃勃的， 两者都是——诸如此类的东西。 你理解了吗？ 我不知道你们是否领会了这一切。领会了吗？ |
| 59:27 So, one asks at the end of it: what is love? You follow? Are we going along together? Is love desire? Is love sex? Is love attachment? Is love being concerned about oneself, eternally? Is love jealousy? And can there be love when there is fear? Can there be love when there is only the search for pleasure? You understand all this? So, we’re going to go into this question of what is pleasure. No, let’s deal with first, what is fear. Shall we? Shall we go into that? Are you getting tired? Are you quite sure? Can you sustain a long time, give your attention? I hope so. Now, we are going to talk about fear. | 59:27 所以，最后，我们要问： 什么是「爱」？ 你跟上了吗？ 我们是在一起前行吗？ 「爱」是欲望吗？ 「爱」是性行为吗？ 「爱」是执著依恋吗？ 「爱」是永无止尽地关心自己吗？ 「爱」是嫉妒吗？ 当有了恐惧时，还会有「爱」吗？ 当只存在对快感的追寻时， 还可能会有「爱」吗？ 你理解所有这一切吗？ 所以我们也将会来探究 关于“什么是快感”的问题。 不过，让我们首先来处理这个问题： 什么是恐惧。 可以吗？ 我们可以来探究它吗？ 你们是不是有点累了？ 你们真的确定吗？ 你们能维持很长一段时间， 集中注意力吗？ 我希望可以。 现在我们来讨论一下「恐惧」。 |
| 1:01:18 You know, as long as you have fear, one lives in darkness. Right? All our actions are distorted. Fear is like a terrible disease, and we put up with it, we live with it, we accept it, because we don’t know what to do with it, how to be free of it. So, we’re going to enquire into the whole problem of fear. And, first of all, to go into it, we are not analysing, because an analyser is the analysed. Are you following this? Is this something new to you? We are saying, the analyser is the analysed. 1:02:41 The analyser is not different from the thing which he’s analysing, he is part of that analysis. Right? Analysis implies division. Right? Are you following this? Analysis implies time. You go to a psychologist, if you have the money and the time and the trouble, and all that business, he will analyse you. That means you are different from the analyser. Right? And the analyser is his own analysis. I wonder if you see all this. No? Do you understand this or not at all? 1:03:44 Because we are saying analysis does not solve any problem. On the contrary, it perpetuates the problem, prolongs it. Because, see, I analyse myself. Right? If I don’t go to a professional, I analyse myself. What is implied in that? I analyse myself: I am different from the thing which I am going to analyse. Right? But is that a fact? That which I analyse is me, who is analysing. You’re following this? No? | 1:01:18 你知道的，只要你还是心存恐惧， 你就会生活在黑暗之中。对吧？ 我们所有的行动都会被扭曲。 恐惧就像是一种可怕的疾病， 而我们忍受着它， 我们和它生活在一起，我们接受了它， 因为我们不知道该怎么处理它， 怎么摆脱掉它。 所以我们将会来探询 关于「恐惧」的整个问题。 而首先，要探究它， 我们不能去分析， 因为分析者就是被分析物。 你们跟上这些了吗？ 这对你们来说是某种新东西吗？ 我们在说的是： 那个分析者就是被分析物。 1:02:41 那个分析者和他在分析的事物 并没有什么不同， 他自己就是那种分析的一部分。 对吧？ 分析就意味着分裂。 对吗？ 你理解这点了吗？ 分析就暗示了时间。 你去找心理学家， 如果你有钱有时间， 也有着自己的苦恼，诸如此类的东西， 他将会分析你。 这意味着你和那个分析者是不同的。 对吧？ 而那个分析者就是 他自己给出的「分析」。 我不知道你是否明白了所有这些。 没有吗？你理解它了吗？ 还是说完全听不懂？ 1:03:44 因为我们正在说的是： 分析是解决不了任何问题的。 相反，它会让问题一直延续下去， 它会拖延那个问题。 因为，你看，我分析我自己。 对吧？ 如果我不去找某个专家的话， 我会分析我自己。 这种分析中暗示了什么呢？ 我分析我自己： 「我」和我将要分析的那个东西是不同的。 对吧？ 然而，这是一个事实吗？ 那个我所分析的对象是「我」 ——也就是那个正在分析的人。 你们跟上它了吗？没理解吗？ |
| 1:04:42 Don’t you ever think about all these things? Is this all utterly new and fantastic? And you are all very educated people, aren’t you? Doesn’t matter. Let’s go on with this. | 1:04:42 你们难道就没有想过这些事情吗？ 这一切难道都是全新的、异想天开的东西吗？ 你们都是受过良好教育的人，不是吗？ 没有关系，让我们继续讲下去吧。 |
| 1:05:08 So, analysis implies time, division. It is like, analysis is analysing himself, all the time, it has no meaning. So, we’re not analysing, but we’re only observing. To look at that tree without analysis. You understand? Just to look at the mountain, or your friend sitting beside you, or the girl. Just to look, not to analyse. So, we’re going to do the same with regard to fear. We’re not analysing, we are merely observing fear, the nature of fear, the cause of fear, the structure of fear. | 1:05:08 所以「分析」就意味着时间和分裂。 这就像是说：「分析」始终就是分析者本身 这并没有什么意义。 所以我们并不是在分析， 我们只是在观察。 看着那棵树而没有任何分析。 你理解了吗？ 只是去看，看着那座高山， 或者看着坐在你身旁的朋友，或者女朋友。 只是去看，而不要去分析。 所以我们也将会对「恐惧」 来做同样的事情。 我们并没有在分析， 我们只是在观察恐惧， 观察恐惧的本质、恐惧的起因、恐惧的结构。 |
| 1:06:09 You know what you are, you know your fears: fear of loneliness, fear of old age, fear of not fulfilling, fear of losing, fear of being attached, and you might lose that which you are attached to, fear of not having success in life – dozens of fears. Right? Are you aware of one fear, at least? Here, now, sitting there, are you aware of your fear? What do you say, sirs? Yes? May I go on? We are not analysing, we are observing. Will you examine, observe the many branches of fear, or fear itself? You understand? 1:07:37 You understand, one may be afraid of loneliness, one may be afraid of one’s wife or husband, girl or boyfriend, one may be afraid of losing what you have, one may be afraid of a job, losing a job and not having a job, and so on. And, psychologically, one may be afraid of this extraordinary sense of loneliness. Right? One may be afraid of being attached, and losing. Or one may be afraid of death, of a disease, pain that you have had, and you don’t want that pain tomorrow and therefore afraid. 1:08:27 There are many, many fears. Do we – please listen, please carefully listen – do you take one fear after the other or do you observe the central fact of fear? You understand my question? Do you look at the fragments of fear, fragments of fear or the whole, total fear? Which is it that you want to do? Right. | 1:06:09 你知道自己的真实状况， 你知道你的那些恐惧： 害怕孤独，害怕衰老， 害怕无法实现， 害怕失去，害怕被依赖， 也害怕你可能会失去你所执著依赖的东西， 害怕无法获得人生的成功 ——一大堆的恐惧。 对吧？ 你是否至少觉察到了其中一种恐惧？ 现在，在这里，当你坐在那里的时候， 你觉察到自己的恐惧了吗？ 先生们，你们有什么想说的？ 有吗？ 我可以继续讲下去吗？ 我们并没有在分析，我们是在观察。 你是会去检视和观察恐惧的无数分枝， 还是恐惧本身？你理解了吗？ 1:07:37 你明白了吧， 一个人或许会害怕孤独， 或许会害怕自己的妻子或丈夫、 女朋友或男朋友， 你也许会害怕失去你所拥有的东西， 你也许会害怕工作的事情， 害怕失去工作，没有工作，等等。 而从心理上来说，我们也许会害怕 那种极度的孤独感。 对吧？ 我们也许会害怕被依赖，害怕失去。 或者我们也许会害怕死亡， 害怕疾病，害怕你曾经历过的痛苦， 而你不想要那种痛苦在明天上演， 由此你感到害怕。 1:08:27 存在着很多很多的恐惧。 那么我们是要…… ——请听好，请认真听好—— 你是会一个接一个地去处理恐惧， 还是会去观察恐惧的核心真相？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你是会去检视恐惧所包含的各种「碎片」， 恐惧的片段，还是去检视恐惧的整体和全部？ 你想要做的是哪一种？ 总算过去了。 |
| 1:09:38 Will you take one fear at a time: fear of loneliness, fear of death, fear of not having a job, fear that your wife or girlfriend may turn away from you, one by one, or the root of fear? You understand my question? Which is it that you want to do? The whole fear or the varying expressions of fear? Well, sirs? If you tackle the root of fear – right? – then the whole, the tree of fear disappears. You understand my question? If you tackle the root of it, the various fragments lose their meaning. 1:11:02 Understood? So, we’re going to do that. Either you want to tackle, to grasp, understand the fragmentary fears, or the very root of it. If you understand, go into the very root of it, the fragmentary fears disappear. You get it? So, we’re going to go into this question of fear, radically, at the very root of it, whether it’s possible to be free of the total fear, of all fear, both superficial fears and the deep-rooted fears, the unconscious, unknown fears. | 1:09:38 你是要一次处理一种恐惧吗： 害怕孤独，害怕死亡， 害怕没有工作， 害怕你的妻子或女朋友 也许会转身离开抛弃你， 你会一个一个地去处理恐惧，还是会去处理恐惧的根源？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你想要做的是哪一种？ 是恐惧的整体，还是恐惧的各种不同表现？ 怎么样，先生们？ 如果你去解决恐惧的根源 ——对吧？ —— 那么全部的恐惧， 恐惧的细枝末节就都会消失了。 你理解我的问题吗？ 如果你去解决恐惧的根源， 那么恐惧的各种「碎片」便会失去意义了。 1:11:02 明白了吗？ 所以我们就要来做这件事。 要么你是想要去解决、领会和了解 那些零零散散的恐惧， 要么是直指恐惧的根源。 如果你了解了恐惧的根源， 探究了恐惧的根源， 那么那些零零散散的恐惧就会消失了。 你明白了吗？ 所以我们将会来探讨这个关于「恐惧」的问题， 从根本上、从根源处去探讨它， 探讨我们是否可能摆脱掉 全部的恐惧、所有的恐惧， 既包括肤浅表面的恐惧， 也包括根深蒂固的恐惧， 那些无意识的、未被确认的恐惧。 |
| 1:11:56 What time is it, sirs? | 1:11:56 现在几点了，先生们？ 问：12点17分。 |
| 1:12:00 Questioner: Twelve seventeen. | 1:12:00 问：12点15分。 问：12点20分。 |
| 1:12:03 Q: Twelve fifteen. | 1:12:03 克：你是想要说我们已经一起讨论了 |
| 1:12:07 Q: Twelve twenty. | 1:12:07 有1个小时20分钟了？ |
| 1:12:11 K: You mean to say we have been talking over, together for an hour and twenty minutes? Aren’t you tired? | 1:12:11 你们不累吗？ 问：不累。 |
| 1:12:20 Q: No. | 1:12:20 克：不，不，请等一下。 |
| 1:12:21 K: No, no, just a minute. Just a minute, sir, because this is… I can go into it. Will you go into it, very carefully, with me, even though you have spent an hour? | 1:12:21 请等一下，先生， 因为这是……我可以去探讨它。 那么你可以非常小心仔细地 和我一起来探究它吗？ |
| 1:12:33 Q: Yes. | 1:12:33 ——虽然你已经听了有一个小时了。 问：可以的。 |
| 1:12:35 K: Will you honestly? Right! | 1:12:35 克：你们说的是实话吗？很好！ 问：是的。 |
| 1:12:38 Q: Yes. We are now going to observe fear, fear at the very root, the root of it. And, we are saying, it is not analysis, because analysis will not eradicate fear. Analysis, as we pointed out, takes time, the analyser thinking different from that which is analysed, when they are both essentially the same, and so on. So, we’re going to observe, together. You are not going to listen to me and then accept it, but together. And, we have to also understand, in going into this question of fear, what is freedom? Freedom, apparently for most people, is freedom of choice. 1:13:55 They think they are free when they can choose: choose to go to a different town, different country, travel – freedom. Choice is the very denial of freedom. There are two types of freedom: freedom from something, freedom from fear – and freedom. You understand? It is only when you are caught in a prison that you want to be free from prison. But when you are free, there is no question of being free from something. You understand? I wonder if you have even done that. | 1:12:38 我们现在将要来观察恐惧， 观察根源处的恐惧，观察恐惧的根源。 而我们在说： 这并不是「分析」， 因为分析是无法根除掉恐惧的。 就如我们所指出的，分析需要花费时间， 分析者认为自己是不同于那个被分析物的， 然而他们两者本质上是一样的，等等。 所以我们将要一起来观察。 不是你听我讲， 然后接受我的说法，而是我们一起。 此外，我们也必须要了解、 要探究关于「恐惧」的问题， 以及 什么是「自由」？ 很显然，自由对于绝大多数人来说 是选择的自由。 1:13:55 当人们可以自主选择的时候， 他们就会认为自己是自由的： 他们可以选择前往不同的城镇、 不同的国家， 去各地旅行——很自由。 然而选择本身否定了自由。 存在着两种类型的自由： 一种是摆脱掉某物的自由， 摆脱掉恐惧，另一种则是「自由」本身。 你理解了吗？ 只有当你身陷牢狱的时候， 你才会想要挣脱牢狱。 然而当你是自由的， 那就不存在什么“摆脱某物”的问题了。 你理解了吗？ 我不知道你们是否曾经这样做过。 |
| 1:14:49 So, we are going to look into this. Freedom, not from something, the demand, the necessity, the fullness and the depth of this sense of freedom, not from anything. So, we are going to look into fear. What is the root of fear? The root of fear is time. Do look at it, carefully. Don’t accept what I am saying. The root of fear, we are saying, is time. Look: one has had pain last week, physical pain, and you don’t want it to occur again and you are afraid it might happen. Right? So, the remembrance of pain which you had a week ago and not wanting it again. So, there is time. You understand? Fear is essentially, basically, fundamentally a question of time. Go into it, I’m going to go slowly into it. | 1:14:49 所以我们将会来探究它。 探究「自由」——但不是摆脱某物的自由， 它是这种自由感的需求、必要性、充分完整性， 以及深度，而不是摆脱任何事物的自由。 所以我们将会来研究恐惧。 恐惧的根源是什么？ 恐惧的根源是「时间」。 请务必认真仔细地看一下它。 不要接受我所说的东西。 我们在说的是：恐惧的根源是「时间」。 你瞧：你上周经历过了某种痛苦， 某种身体上的痛苦， 而你不想让这种痛苦再次发生， 由此你会害怕这种痛苦也许会再次出现。 对吧？ 所以你记住了你一周前曾遭遇过的痛苦， 并且不想要它再次发生。 所以这里就存在着「时间」。 你理解了吗？ 恐惧从本质上、大体上和根本上来说 是一个关于「时间」的问题。 深入下去， 我将会慢慢地来深入它。 |
| 1:16:36 What is time? This is an immense question, but we will have to make it very brief. We’ll continue it, tomorrow, if you are willing, and if you are here. Time is movement – right? – from here to there, it’s a movement, by the clock, as well as psychologically. Right? Moving from ‘what is’ to ‘what should be,’ that demands time. And you might not achieve what you want to be, and therefore there is fear. So, time is the factor of fear. Look: I am afraid, suppose one is afraid of death. 1:17:40 That is in the future. Right? If death happened instantly, there is no fear. You are following this? So, time is the factor of fear. And what is time, apart from the chronological fact, by the watch, when you have to take a bus, car and all that, what is the factor of time? What is time? I will see you tomorrow – right? – that is a fact of time. Right? And I hope to change from what I am to what I should be. That requires time. And time is – I don’t think you’ll understand. I’ll go on. | 1:16:36 什么是「时间」？ 这是一个巨大的问题，但我们将会言简意赅。 我们会在明天继续讨论它 ——如果你们愿意听，并且来这里的话。 时间就是「运动」——对吧？ —— 从这里到那里，它是一种运动， 既包括钟表上指针的运动， 也包括心理上的运动。 对吧？ 从“现在的模样”前进到“应该怎样”， 这就需要时间。 而你或许无法成为你想要成为的样子， 由此便会有恐惧。 所以，「时间」是造成恐惧的因素。 你看：我害怕…… 假设某人害怕死亡。 1:17:40 这件事是要未来才发生的。对吧？ 如果死亡立即就发生了， 那就不存在什么恐惧了。 你们跟上它了吗？ 所以时间是造成恐惧的因素。 那么时间又是什么呢？ 除了钟表前后顺序意义上的时间， 比如你要乘坐公共汽车，乘坐汽车等等， 造成「时间」的因素是什么？ 什么是时间？ 我明天将会来见你——对吧？ —— 这是一个时间上的事实。 是吧？ 此外，我也会希望改变自己现有的模样， 去成为我理想中应有的模样。 这也需要时间。 而时间是……我认为你们不会理解的。 但我还是继续讲下去吧。 |
| 1:18:49 Time ceases when there is only ‘what is.’ You understand? You understand, when I… when one is violent, time is necessary to become non-violent. Right? But when there is only violence and not its opposite, there is no time. I wonder if you get this. It’s up to you. | 1:18:49 当只存在“真实模样”的时候， 时间就会停止了。 你们理解了吗？ 你理解了吧， 当我……当某人是暴力的时候， 他就需要时间来变得「非暴力」。 对吧？ 然而，当只存在「暴力」这个事实， 而没有它的反面时， 那么「时间」就不存在了。 我不知道你们明白了没有。 这取决于你。 |
| 1:19:39 So, time is a movement. Movement implies not only time but thought – right? – going from here to there. All movement of thought is time. Right? All movement of thought is measure and time. Are we moving? No, this is too difficult for you. So, time is the factor of fear. Time is brought about by thought – right? – that I will die in two years’ time, therefore I’m frightened – right? – and I think about it. So, thought and time, which are both the same, is the basic factor of fear. 1:20:58 And there is no fear when there is only the absolute fact, instantly. Do you understand all this? That is, can you observe the movement of time as thought which breeds fear? Right? You understand? I am afraid of tomorrow. The fear comes into being when I think what might happen tomorrow. Right? Or I’ve had pain yesterday and I don’t want it to happen again. I don’t want to have that pain again and it might happen, and there is fear. Right? So fear is the movement of time and thought. 1:22:11 And then arises a fundamental question, which we will go into, perhaps, tomorrow and the three other meetings: can thought come to an end? Can thought have a stop? Which means, can the brain, with all its conditioning – you follow? – can the brain stop the activity of memory? Only where it is necessary, and where it is not necessary. You understand? So, we will continue with fear and the rest of it, tomorrow. And I hope you have understood some of all this. | 1:19:39 所以，「时间」是一种运动。 运动不仅意味着「时间」，也意味着「思想」。 对吧？ 从这里去那里。 所有思想的运动都是时间。 是吧？ 所有思想的运动都是度量与时间。 我们正在一起前行吗？ 不，这对你们来说太难了。 所以，时间就是促成恐惧的因素。 而时间是由思想所带来的 ——对吧？ —— 比如我将会在两年后死去， 因此我会感到害怕——对吧？ —— 我会想着这件事儿。 所以，思想和时间， 这两者是一样的， 它们都是造成恐惧的基本因素。 1:20:58 然而当只存在绝对的事实， 那就不会有恐惧了， 恐惧立刻就没有了。 你们能理解这些东西吗？ 换句话说：你能否观察 那种滋生了恐惧的、作为「思想」的时间的运动？ 对吧？ 你理解了吗？ 我害怕“明天”。 当我想到明天可能会发生的事， 恐惧便出现了。 对吧？ 或者我昨天曾经遭受过痛苦， 而我不想要这种痛苦再次发生。 我不想再经历这种痛苦了， 但这种痛苦可能会再次发生， 于是便有了恐惧。 对吧？所以恐惧就是时间和思想的运动。 1:22:11 然后就出现了一个根本性的问题， 我们也许可以在明天 或者接下来的三次聚会中探讨这个问题， 即：思想能否结束？ 思想能够停止吗？ 这意味着：大脑及其所有的局限是否能够 ——你跟上了吗？ —— 大脑能够停止记忆的活动吗？ 只有在有必要的场合才活动， 没必要的时候就不活动。 你理解了吗？ 所以我们明天将会继续来 谈论恐惧等等这些东西。 而我希望你们已经了解了 其中的一些东西。 |
| 1:23:28 Please, it’s so unnecessary to clap. When you clap, what are you clapping for? For understanding yourself? | 1:23:28 请别这么做，真的没必要鼓掌。 当你鼓掌时， 你是因为什么而鼓掌呢？ 是因为你了解了自己吗？ |
