Krishnamurti Subtitles
|
OJ77T4 - 聆听、观察、学习和生活的艺术
|
|
| 0:52 Yesterday morning, we were talking about fear, And, also, we were saying that our consciousness, the structure of our thinking, which is consciousness, is based on thinking, the desire for power, the many wounds that we receive from childhood, and, also, we talked yesterday about the freedom from all fear, and whether man who has lived for thousands of years, whether it is at all possible to be totally, completely be free of this great burden of fear. And I would like this morning, if I may, to talk about pleasure. One of the structures of our consciousness is fear, pleasure and sorrow, and before we talk about it, go into it, I think we ought to understand something very clearly and simply: the art of listening, the art of seeing, and the art of learning. 3:26 The word ‘art’ is generally applied to artists, those who paint, those who write poems, do sculpture and so on, but the meaning of that word ‘art’ means giving everything its right place, putting all our thoughts, feelings, anxieties and so on, in their right place. So, the word ‘art’ means giving their proper place, proper proportion, putting everything in harmony, not just paint a picture or write a poem. | 0:52 昨天早上，我们谈论了恐惧， 我们同样也说了：我们的意识， 我们思考的结构——也就是意识， 它是建立在思考、对权力的渴望， 以及我们从小所受到的无数伤害之上的， 我们昨天还谈论了 那种摆脱所有恐惧的自由， 以及对于生活了成千上万年的人类来说， 他们究竟有没有可能彻底地、 完全地摆脱掉这种恐惧的巨大负担。 如果可以的话，今天早上，我想要 来谈论一下「快感」。 我们意识的结构之一便是恐惧、 快感和痛苦， 不过在我们开始谈论和深入它之前， 我认为我们应该 非常清楚和简单地了解一些东西： 那就是 聆听的艺术、观察的艺术， 和学习的艺术。 3:26 “艺术”这个词通常适用于艺术家， 那些画画的人，那些写诗的人， 那些做雕塑的人等等， 但是“艺术”这个词的意思， 它的意思是：把一切事物 都放在它正确的位置上， 把我们所有各种想法、感受、焦虑等等， 都放在它们正确的位置上。 所以，“艺术”这个词的意思是 赋予这些事物正确的位置、正确的比例， 让一切事物处于和谐之中， 而不只是画一幅画或者写一首诗。 |
| 4:36 So, if you will this morning apply the art, the art of listening. We rarely listen to anybody. We are so full of our own conclusions, our own experiences, our own problems, our own judgements, so we have no space in which to listen. We ought to have some space, so that as two friends, you and I, the speaker, are talking over together their problems, amicably, under the shade of a tree, sitting down and looking at the mountains, but concerned with their problems, and so they are willing to listen to each other. And to listen is only possible when you put aside your particular opinion, your particular knowledge or problem, your conclusions, when you’re free to listen, not interpreting, not judging, not evaluating, but actually the art of listening. 6:29 To listen with great care, attention, with affection. And, if we have such an art, if we have learnt such… rather, if you are capable of such listening, then communication becomes very, very simple. There’ll be no misunderstanding. Communication implies to think together, to share the things that we are talking about, together, to partake in the problem, as two human beings living in a monstrous, corrupt world, where everything is so ugly, brutal, violent and meaningless, it is very important, it seems to me, if I may point out, that, in the art of listening, one learns immediately, one sees the fact, instantly. 8:04 And, if you, if one listens rightly, as we pointed out the meaning of that word ‘right’ – correctly, accurately, not what you think is right or wrong, but in the art of listening there is freedom, and in that freedom every word, every nuance of word has significance, and there is immediate comprehension, which is immediate insight and, therefore, immediate freedom to observe. | 4:36 所以，如果你愿意， 今天早上，请你运用这种艺术， 也就是聆听的艺术。 我们很少去聆听别人。 我们内心充满了自己的结论、 自己的经验、自己的问题、 自己的判断， 所以我们没有什么空间 可以去聆听了。 但我们应该有一些空间， 这样的话我们就可以作为朋友， 你和我，你和演讲者， 就像两个朋友那样一起友善地讨论 他们的问题， 一起坐在树荫底下， 望着那些高山， 关心着他们的问题， 由此他们便会愿意聆听彼此。 而要让聆听成为可能， 这只有当你放下你特定的观点， 你特定的知识、问题和结论， 当你能够自由地去聆听，而不去解释、 不去判断、不去评估， 而是真正运用了聆听的艺术时才行。 6:29 带着极大的关注、注意力和情感去聆听。 而如果我们掌握了这门艺术， 如果我们学会了这种 更确切地说，如果你能够这样去聆听的话， 那么交流就会变得非常非常简单。 我们之间将不再会有误解。 交流意味着一起去思考， 去一起分享我们正在讨论的东西， 去参与到这个问题中来， 我们两个人， 共同生活在一个丑陋的、腐败的世界中， 这个世界中的一切事物都是 如此丑陋、残忍、暴力、毫无意义， 所以如果我可以指出的话，在我看来， 很重要的一点就是： 我们要在聆听的艺术中，立即去学习， 立即去看到那个事实。 8:04 而如果你，如果我们能正确地聆听， 就如我们所指出的， “正确”这个词的意思 ——它的意思是准确的、精确的， 而不是你所认为的正确或错误， 在聆听的艺术中就有着自由， 在那种自由中，每一个字、 每一个词的细微差别都是有意义的， 然后就会有即刻的理解， 它是一种立即的洞见， 由此你便立刻能够自由地去观察。 |
| 8:54 Also, there is the art of seeing, to see things as they are, not as you wish to see them. To see things without any illusion, without any preconceived judgement, opinion, to see actually ‘what is,’ not your conclusions about ‘what is.’ Then the art of learning, not memorising, which becomes very mechanical, because our minds, our brains have already become so extraordinarily mechanical. So, the art of learning implies freedom to observe, to listen without prejudice, without argumentation, without any emotional, romantic responses. 10:10 If we have these three arts, not merely as a verbal conclusion or an intellectual comprehension, but actually, in our daily life, to put everything in its right place, where they belong, so that one can live a really very quiet, harmonious life. But that is not possible if you haven’t learned this art of giving things their proper place. | 8:54 此外，还有着那种观察的艺术， 去如实地看清事物， 而不是带着你心中的希望去看它们。 去毫无任何幻想地看事物， 没有任何先入为主的判断与观点， 去切实地看“真实现状”， 而不是你对于“真实现状”的结论。 然后再来说说「学习的艺术」， 学习的艺术并不是去记忆， 这样的话，它就会变成非常机械化的事情了， 因为我们的头脑，我们的大脑已经变得 如此极度的机械化。 所以学习的艺术意味着能够自由地去观察， 去聆听但毫无偏见、毫无争论、 也没有任何情绪化的、 浪漫多情的反应。 10:10 如果我们拥有了这三种艺术， 不仅仅是作为一种口头文字上的结论， 或者某种思想智力上的理解， 而是在我们的日常生活中真正拥有它们， 能够将一切事物放置在它正确的、属于它的位置上， 这样我们就可以过上一种 真正非常宁静与和谐的生活了。 但如果你没有学会这种 将事物放置在它们正确位置上的艺术， 那你就不可能过上这种生活了。 |
| 11:02 So, we’re going to talk over together, this morning the problem of fear. Not only the problem of fear, and go into it much more, but also the problem, the question why human beings, throughout the ages, pursue, so intensely, pleasure. Not that it is wrong or right, but why? Modern civilisation, which is really based on consumerism, is the pursuit of pleasure, if you observe it – the books, your own feelings, is this constant, endless pursuit of pleasure, which we’ll go into, because pleasure and fear are the two sides of the same coin, and to understand one and disregard the other becomes rather meaningless. 12:34 So, we have to examine both fear and pleasure. Not as separate things, but flowing into each other, as the two sides of the same tree, of the same coin. | 11:02 所以，今天早上， 我们将会一起来讨论 恐惧的问题。 不仅是恐惧的问题， 我们还要更加深入它， 来讨论下这个问题， 即：为什么人类世世代代以来， 会疯狂地追求「快感」。 我们没有说追求快感是对是错， 只是要问：为什么？ 现代文明，它其实是建立在消费主义之上的， 如果你观察一下它， （你会发现）这种文明就是对快感的追求， ——那些书籍，你自身的感受， 都是这种持续不断、永无止境的 对快感的追求，我们将会来探讨这一点， 因为「快感」和「恐惧」， 它们就是同一个硬币的两面， 只了解其中一面而忽视另一面， 这是毫无意义的。 12:34 所以我们必须要同时检视 「恐惧」和「快感」这两者。 不是把它们当作两个分离独立的东西， 而是两个彼此交融的东西， 就像是同一棵树、同一个硬币的两面。 |
| 13:01 We were saying yesterday, that fear is time. Not only the chronological time but also psychological time. Time, as we pointed out, is movement, from here to there – physically to go from here to Santa Barbara or to Los Angeles you need time. That’s a movement. And, also, there is psychological time. At least, we think there is psychological time. That is, the changing of ‘what is’ into ‘what should be,’ the pursuit of an ideal away from ‘what is.’ The ‘what is’ is violence or grief or pain, and to overcome that or to understand it or to go beyond it, psychologically, we say there is non-violence, and to achieve that you need time. 14:39 So, there is both physiological time, the time by the clock, and also, we think, unfortunately, that there is psychological time. That is, the pursuit of an ideal, which is time. For the speaker, all ideals are idiotic, because what is important is not ideals but to understand ‘what is.’ If one understands ‘what is,’ then the ideals become unnecessary. But we think that to overcome ‘what is,’ we need the ideals in order to lever, give pressure to wipe away ‘what is.’ So, that is time. | 13:01 而昨天我们说了： 恐惧就是时间。 不仅是钟表上前后顺序的时间， 也包括心理上的时间。 就如我们所指出的： 时间是一种「运动」，从这里到那里 ——从物理上来说，从这里到圣巴巴拉市 或者洛杉矶，你需要时间。 这是一种运动。 此外，还存在着心理上的时间。 至少我们认为存在着“心理上的时间”。 也就是说：将“真实现状”转变为“应该怎样”， 去追求某种脱离自己真实模样的理想。 “真实模样”就是我们的暴力、悲伤或痛苦， 而为了克服这些问题，或者了解它， 或者超越它，于是在心理上， 我们说存在着「非暴力」， 而要达到这种「非暴力」，你需要时间。 14:39 所以，我们既有着生理上的时间 ——那种钟表上的时间， 同时很不幸地，我们也认为存在着 「心理上的时间」。 也就是说，去追求某个理想 ——这就是「时间」。 对于演讲者来说， 所有的理想都是十分愚蠢的， 因为重要的并不是理想， 而是要了解自己的“真实现状”。 如果我们了解了“真实现状”， 那么理想就变得毫无必要了。 可我们认为要战胜“真实现状”，我们就需要理想， 用理想来撬动和施压， 从而消灭“真实现状”。 而这就是「时间」。 |
| 15:53 So, thought, which is memory, stored up in the brain as experience and knowledge. So, that movement of time is called evolution. Right? To evolve. So, we think one can be free of fear through time. Right? You understand? Now, the speaker is questioning the whole process of evolution, psychological evolution. Are you following any of this? Which is, there is fear – all human beings have various types of fears, both biological, as well as psychological. And the freedom from it, we have never demanded the freedom from it, we have never asked for the freedom of it, we put up with fear. 17:32 And that’s a part of our conditioning. So, we are going to question and investigate together this question of whether the whole structure of human thinking, which is time, which is measure, and, as long as that process goes on, there must be fear. We are saying that fear can stop instantly, completely, and has no future. Not that you will have other forms of psychological fears, but the ending totally of fear. And that’s only possible when you understand the nature of time, the psychological time. You understand? May I go on? | 15:53 所以思想，也就是记忆， 它作为经验和知识储存在大脑中。 因此，那种时间的运动就被称为“进化”。 对吧？ 发展进化。 所以我们认为自己可以通过时间 来摆脱掉恐惧。 对吧？ 你理解了吗？ 然而，演讲者正在质疑 这整个进化的过程 ——这种心理上的进化。 你们理解我所说的任何内容了吗？ 也就是说：我们有着恐惧 ——全人类有着各种类型的恐惧， 既包括生物学上的恐惧， 也包括心理上的恐惧。 而要摆脱它， 我们从来没有要求过要摆脱恐惧， 我们从来没有请求挣脱恐惧， 我们忍受了恐惧。 17:32 而这就是我们局限的一部分。 所以我们将要一起来质疑和探究这个问题， 即：人类思考的整个结构 ——它就是时间，就是度量， 而只要这个过程还是持续着， 就必然会有恐惧。 而我们在说的是：恐惧是可以立即彻底停止的， 而不需要什么“未来”。 不是说你还会有其他形式的心理恐惧， 而是彻底完全地结束恐惧。 而这只有当你了解了时间 ——心理上时间——的本质以后才有可能。 你们理解了吗？我可以继续讲下去吗？ |
| 19:05 You see, we are so used to the idea of becoming something, or being something. This is very interesting. May I go into something, deviate a little bit from this? You have all heard, I’m pretty sure, because you are probably all acquainted with transcendental meditation. Aren’t you? Right? Unfortunately. You don’t know, actually, what it means. The word ‘mantra’ – which you repeat, after giving fifty dollars or a hundred dollars to somebody, and he tells you the secret of a new mantra, you know, that game you play the word ‘mantra’ – please listen to the word – the Sanskrit word ‘mantra’ means: ‘man’ means ‘to reflect upon not becoming or being.’ 20:28 To reflect upon not becoming or being. Reflect about it, think about it, ponder about it, meditate about it. And ‘tra’ means ‘destroy or put away, deny, all self-centred activity. ’ You understand? That is the real meaning of the word ‘mantra.’ Right? | 19:05 你瞧，我们是如此地习惯于那种“变成某种模样” 或“成为某人”的想法。 这非常有趣。 我可以来探讨一些东西吗？ ——它可能稍微有点偏离正题。 我十分确信，你们都听说过 因为你们可能都很熟悉「超觉静坐」。 不是吗？ 是吧？ 这真是不幸。 因为你们实际上并不知道它是什么意思。 “咒语（mantra）”这个词——也就是你们反复念诵的那个东西， 在你给了某人五十美元或一百美元之后， 他便会告诉你一个新咒语的奥秘， 你知道的，这就是你们在玩的游戏， “咒语（mantra）”这个词 ——请听好这个词—— “mantra”这个梵文词语的意思是： “man”意味着“去沉思‘不成为’或‘存在’”。 20:28 去沉思“不成为”或“存在”。 去反思它、思考它、 深思它、冥想它。 而“tra”则意味着“摧毁、放下 或否定所有自我中心的活动。 ” 你们理解了吗？ 这才是“mantra（咒语）”这个词的真正含义。 懂了吧？ |
| 21:11 K: Leave it, sir, I’m talking – we’ll talk about it in the discussion tomorrow or day after tomorrow. That is, the total self-denial of not becoming, not being. And look what you have reduced it to: a commercial affair, a twenty million dollar industry, and the real meaning of it is gone. And I brought it in because we want something so quickly, as instant heaven, instant enlightenment, whatever it is. We are afraid to use our reason, afraid to be logical, sane. And if we want to understand the nature of fear, and see the consequences of fear in action, one must use logic, reason, and approach it sanely. 22:53 And, to approach it sanely, you must understand the whole movement of thinking. And, we’ve said, over and over again, what is the nature and structure of thought. And thought invents time, psychologically, because thought says, as I am myself uncertain, not secure, it invents security in an idea, in an ideal, in a picture, in a symbol, and clings to that symbol. You are following all this? | 21:11 克：先别管它，先生，我正在说 我们将会在明天或后天的讨论中来谈论它。 也就是那种不变成什么，也不成为什么的 完全的「自我否定」。 看看你已经把它沦为了什么： 你把它商业化了， 变成了一个两千万美元的产业， 然而它（mantra）真正的意义却丢失了。 而我之所以插入这个话题，是因为 我们总是如此急切地想要某个东西， 比如立即进入天堂，立即开悟，等等。 我们害怕运用我们的理性， 害怕变得合乎逻辑，变得清醒明智。 然而，如果我们想要了解恐惧的本质， 并看到恐惧在行动中造成的结果， 那么我们就必须运用逻辑、理性， 然后以清醒明智的方式去处理它。 22:53 而要以清醒明智的方式去处理它， 你就必须了解思考的全部运动。 而我们曾经一遍又一遍地说过 思想的本质和结构是什么。 思想发明了「时间」 ——心理上的时间， 因为思想说： 由于我自己是不确定的、不安全的， 于是它便在思想理念、 理想、画像、符号中发明了「安全」， 并执著于那个符号。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ |
| 23:51 So, to understand fear and go beyond it, completely – not only superficial fears, but the deep unconscious unknown fears – is only possible when you know, or when you understand the process of thinking, and give thought its right place. Which is the art of thinking. You understand? Are we following each other, somewhat? That is, as we said, thought is the outcome or the response of knowledge stored up in the brain as memory. So, thought has a right place – in building a house, all the technological world, and so on. But thought, psychologically, breeds fear. So, thought psychologically has no place, if you would be free of fear. Are you meeting each other? | 23:51 所以，要了解恐惧， 并彻底地超越它 ——不仅是肤浅表面的恐惧， 也包括无意识深处的未知的恐惧—— 这只有当你知晓 或了解了思考的过程， 并给予了思想正确合理的位置时 才是可能的。 给予思想正确位置就是「思考的艺术」。 你理解了吗？ 我们是不是多少有点理解彼此了？ 换句话说，就如我们说过的： 思想是知识的产物 或反应，它作为记忆储存在大脑中。 所以，思想有其正确合理的位置 ——比如建造房屋， 所有技术世界中的事情，等等。 然而在心理上，思想却滋生了恐惧。 所以如果你想要摆脱掉恐惧， 那就不应该让思想在心理上占据一席之地。 你们是否理解了？ |
| 25:27 Now, please listen to this, not how to be free of fear, which is meaningless, because the ‘how’ implies the invention of thought which creates, which brings about a system. When you say, ‘How am I to do it? ’ you’re asking for a system. That system is put together by thought. So thought, again, is caught in a system, hoping to be free of fear. Right. So, what we are saying is, please learn the art of listening. That is, you have fears of many kinds, or you have a fear, or you have fears which, if you understand the root of it, all superficial, and the very root of fear, goes. 26:42 So, please listen, as we said, with the art of listening. Which is, the art of listening is to put away your prejudices, your conclusions, your wanting to be even free of fear. The very want to be free of fear, the very desire to be free of fear is a hindrance to listening. Right? So, please learn, now, the art of listening. And, with that attention of listening, which is an art, when the speaker says, thought is time, thought is measure, thought is a movement in time, which creates fear – if you see that, if you actually listen to it, to that statement, and not make a conclusion of that statement, but actually listen, with your heart, with your mind, with all your capacity, attention and care, then you will see that fear has no place at all. 28:22 The art of listening is the miracle. Have some of you got this? So, we’ll come back to it a little later. | 25:27 现在，请听好它： 不是如何摆脱掉恐惧， 这是没什么意义的， 因为“如何”就暗示着思想的发明创造， 思想会创造出……会带来一个体系。 当你说，“我要如何去做这件事？ ”时， 你就是在要求一个体系。 而那个体系是由思想所拼凑出来的。 所以思想再次陷入于体系中， 然后希望籍此来摆脱掉恐惧。 好了。 所以，我们在说的是： 请学习这种聆听的艺术。 换句话说：你有着各种各样的恐惧， 或者你有着一种恐惧， 或者你有着多种恐惧， 但如果你了解了恐惧的根源， 那么所有肤浅表面的恐惧， 以及恐惧的根源，就都会消失了。 26:42 所以，请听好，就如我们所说的： 你要运用聆听的艺术。 也就是说，聆听的艺术 就是放下你的偏见、 你的结论，甚至你想要摆脱恐惧的渴望。 那种想要脱离恐惧的渴望本身， 想要摆脱恐惧的欲望本身， 它妨碍了聆听。 对吧？ 所以，现在，请你们去学习 这种聆听的艺术。 然后，运用这种聆听的注意力 ——它是一种艺术， 当演讲者说：思想就是时间，思想就是度量， 思想就是时间中的运动 ——这种运动制造出了恐惧， 如果你看到了这一点，如果你真正地聆听了它， 聆听了这种陈述， 且没有对这种陈述下什么结论， 而是用你的心灵、头脑、 所有的能力、注意力和关心 真正聆听了它， 那时你就会发现恐惧已无立足之地了。 28:22 聆听的艺术是一个奇迹。 你们中有人领悟它了吗？ 所以，我们待会儿再回过来讲它吧。 |
| 28:43 So, now, we’re going to talk over together what is pleasure, why man has pursued pleasure – because that’s part of our consciousness, it’s part of our daily life, it’s part of our thinking, it is the motive that keeps us pursuing. Why has man made pleasure into such extraordinary importance, into such fantastic proportions – the whole world of entertainment – why? There is not only the world of entertainment from Hollywood and all the rest of the world, but also there is the religious entertainment. 29:50 I’m not being sacrilegious or insulting, but the whole structure and the nature of religious mass and all the rest of it is a form of entertainment – you are entertained, you are emotionally sustained, excited. So, we have to go into this question, if you are willing, and you must be willing, because it’s part of your life. There is not only sexual pleasure, but also there are various types of psychological pleasures – the pleasure of owning something, the pleasure of possession – please listen, see it in yourself, not just accept the words of the speaker, that has no meaning, whatsoever the pleasure of possession, the pleasure of being attached to something, the pleasure of belonging to something – a group, a community, a sect, a family. 31:22 Then there is the pleasure of power – power over others, power over oneself, the control, which is a form of asceticism. The word ‘asceticism’ comes from… which means basically ‘ash,’ the word ‘ascetic’ means ‘that which has been made into an ash,’ a withered human being – that’s what is implied. So, there is power, there is pleasure in power, possession, attachment, there is pleasure in belonging to a particular community, the pleasure of following the herd, not swimming against the current, or swimming against the current, which becomes, also, a form of pleasure. | 28:43 好了，现在，我们将会一起来探讨一下： 什么是「快感」？ 为什么人会追求「快感」 ——因为它（快感）是我们意识的一部分， 它是我们日常生活中的一部分， 我们思考的一部分， 它是激励维持我们不断追逐的动机。 为什么人类赋予了「快感」如此非凡的重要性， 以及如此大的权重 ——整个娱乐界—— 为什么？ 我们不仅有着娱乐界， 从好莱坞到世界上其他的各种娱乐， 我们同样也有着“宗教娱乐”。 29:50 我这并不是亵渎神明或者无礼， 是因为从宗教弥撒等等这类东西 的整个结构与本质来看， 它就是一种娱乐 ——你会为此而感到愉悦， 你会持续感情澎湃，兴奋激动。 所以我们必须要来探究这个问题 ——如果你愿意的话， 而你必须要愿意， 因为这是你生活的一部分。 我们不仅有着性快感， 同样也有着各种类型的 心理上的快感 ——拥有某个东西的快感， 占有的快感—— 请听好，在你自己身上看到它， 而不只是接受演讲者的话语， 这是没有任何意义的。 那种占有的快感， 那种执著于某物的快感， 那种归属于某事物的快感 ——归属于某个团体、某个群体、 某个教派、某个家庭。 31:22 然后还有着那种权力带来的快感 ——支配掌控别人的权力， 支配掌控自己的权力，自我控制， 这是苦行主义的一种形式。 “asceticism（苦行主义）”这个词来自于…… 它基本的意思是“ash（灰烬）”， 而“ascetic（苦行者）”这个词的意思是 “那个已经化为灰烬的事物”， 一个枯萎凋谢的人 ——这就是它所隐含的意思。 所以存在着权力， 有着权力带来的快感， 占有的快感，执著的快感， 还有着归属于某个特定群体的快感， 随波逐流 从众的快感， 不要逆流而行， 或者你会逆流而行， 逆流而行也会成为某种形式的快感。 |
| 32:39 So, there are these innumerable forms of pleasure. I hope one is aware of it. That is, if one may ask, are you, as a friend, talking over together, the friend asks, are you aware of the pursuit of pleasure which you follow, which you are pursuing? And we are discussing that pleasure, whether it is the pleasure of taste, food, sex, the biological pleasures, the sensuous pleasures and the psychological pleasures. Why do you as a human being who represent the world, and, as a human being, you are the world, why do you pursue this pleasure? You understand my question? Why this constant demand? The pleasure of achievement, the pleasure of living up to an ideal, the pleasure of the search for so-called God. God is, after all, the invention of thought, isn’t it? Are you willing to look into that? Because, while we are talking about that, it’s important to understand what is reality and what is truth. Because we have made God into an absolute truth, not only in this country but all over Europe and over the whole Asiatic world – mention the word ‘God’ and you are a most respectable person. | 32:39 所以存在着无数形式的快感。 我希望你们觉察到了它。 也就是说——如果允许我问一下的话—— 你是否……作为朋友， 我们一起在讨论， 朋友问你： 你是否觉察到了你对于快感的追逐， 那种你正在追求的东西？ 而我们正在讨论那种快感， 无论它是味觉上的快感，美食、性爱， 那种生物学上的快感，感官上的快感， 还是心理上的快感。 你是一个人，你代表着这个世界， 作为人类的一员，你就是这个世界， 那么为什么你要追求这种快感呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 为什么会有这种持续不断的需求？ 有所成就的快感， 符合达到理想的快感， 寻找所谓“神明”的快感。 从根本上说，神明是思想的发明物，难道不是吗？ 你们愿意来探讨这一点吗？ 因为当我们在谈论这个问题的时候， 很重要的一点就是要了解 什么是「现实」，什么是「事实」。 因为我们已经把神明 变成了一个绝对的「事实」， 不仅是在这个国家里，也包括在全欧洲各地， 以及整个亚洲世界 ——当你提到“神明”这个词， 你就会成为最值得尊敬的人。 |
| 35:22 So, we are asking, what is reality and what is illusion and what is truth? Are you getting tired of all this? | 35:22 所以我们正在问：什么是「现实」， 什么是「幻想」，什么是「事实」？ |
| 35:42 Q: No. | 35:42 你们是不是对这一切感到厌倦了？ 问：没有。 |
| 35:45 K: I hope you’re not merely listening to a lot of words. Then it becomes very tiresome, then it becomes rather boring. But, if you’re listening, which is the art, which is a great art, then you have to find out what is reality. Would you say reality is everything that thought has created, everything – the beautiful building, the temple, the mosque, the cathedral, and all the contents of the cathedral, the mosque, and the temple. That is reality. And thought has not created nature. That is reality – there it is. 36:59 But thought has created many illusions – the illusion of nationality, which is accepted as a reality, the illusion of war, which is accepted, a necessary, a civilised existence. So, thought, whatever thought has created, both technologically as well as that which thought has created as illusions, is a reality. And thought has not created nature, but thought has built a chair out of the wood of nature. You are understanding all this? Are you following all this? Does it interest you, all this? | 35:45 克：我希望你们并不仅仅是在 听着长篇大论。 那样的话你将会非常厌烦， 它将会变得相当无聊乏味。 但如果你正在聆听 ——聆听是一种艺术，一种伟大的艺术， 那你就必须搞清楚 什么是「现实」。 你会不会觉得「现实」就是思想所创造出来的一切事物， 一切事物——包括那些美丽的建筑、神庙、 清真寺、大教堂，以及大教堂、 清真寺和神庙里的所有东西。 这就是「现实」。 但是，思想并没有创造出大自然。 大自然也是「现实」——它就在那里。 36:59 然而思想却创造出了很多错觉 ——“国家”的错觉， 人们把它当作一种「现实」而加以接受了， “战争”的错觉也被接受了， 人们认为它是必要的，是一种文明的存在。 所以，思想，无论思想创造出了什么， 既包括科学技术上的事物， 也包括思想所创造出来的种种错觉， 它们都是「现实」。 思想并没有创造出自然世界， 但思想却利用自然界中的木头 而做出了一把椅子。 你们理解这一切了吗？ 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 你们对这些东西有兴趣吗？ |
| 38:18 So, truth has nothing whatsoever to do with reality, which we’ll talk about when we go into the whole question of what is meditation. Because what we’re talking now is part of meditation, the art of listening is a part of meditation, the art of seeing is part of meditation, and learning. So, what we’re doing now is the movement of meditation, which is to be free of fear, and the understanding of pleasure. So, we’re saying, is pleasure love? Right? Please find out for yourself, ask that question, is pleasure love? 39:46 Is desire love? Is possession love? Is the desire for power, love? So, we are asking, desire, pleasure, is it the nature of love? And, if it is not, why have we made pleasure more dominant than love? And to understand love – please, do go into this with the speaker because this is very important in our life, because we have no love. We know what attachment is, we know what… to possess or being possessed, and the pleasures of that. We all know what it means to have sex and the pleasures of sex – the imaginations, the pictures, the thought involved in that act – all pleasure. 41:20 All that, we’re asking, is that love? And we use that word ‘love,’ so easily – I love my country, I love my books, I love what I’m eating, I love my wife, or my girl. So, one has to go into this question, very deeply, to see and discover for oneself what love is. Without that, you have wasted your life, you’re just zombies, or just human beings uttering a lot of words, living a useless life, confused, miserable, suffering. | 38:18 所以，事实和「现实」并没有任何关系， 我们将会来讨论这一点， 我们会在探究“什么是冥想”的整个问题时 来讨论这一点。 因为我们现在正在谈论的东西 就是冥想的一部分， 聆听的艺术就是冥想的一部分， 观察的艺术就是冥想的一部分， 学习的艺术也是。 所以我们现在所做的就是冥想的活动， 也就是摆脱掉恐惧，并了解「快感」。 然后我们就要问了：快感是爱吗？ 对吧？ 请你自己去搞清楚这一点， 去问问这个问题： 快感是爱吗？ 39:46 欲望是爱吗？ 占有是爱吗？ 对权力的渴望，它是爱吗？ 所以，我们在问：欲望、快感， 它是爱的本质吗？ 而如果它不是，为什么我们要让快感比爱 更具有支配性地位？ 而要了解「爱」 ——请务必和演讲者一起来探究这点， 因为这对于我们的生活来说 是非常重要的， 因为我们并没有爱。 我们知道什么是执著依恋， 我们知道什么是 占有或者被占有， 以及这两者的快感。 我们都知道做爱是什么意思 以及性爱的快感 ——性行为中所包含的那些幻想、画面和想法—— 所有这些快感。 41:20 而我们正在问：所有这一切，它们是爱吗？ 我们是如此轻易地就使用了「爱」这个字眼 ——我爱我的国家，我爱我的书本， 我爱我正在吃的东西， 我爱我的妻子或者我的女朋友。 所以，我们必须要 非常深入地去探究这个问题： 亲自去看、去发现什么是爱。 如果不这么做，你就浪费了你的生命， 你只是成了行尸走肉， 或者长篇大论 夸夸其谈的人类， 过着毫无价值的生活：困惑、悲惨、痛苦。 |
| 42:33 So, we can only understand that which is love when there is the understanding, not verbal nor intellectual, but the depth of the meaning of pleasure. There is pleasure, there is enjoyment and there is joy. You understand? There is pleasure and the enjoyment of a morning, when the sun is out, early morning, the birds are singing, the light on the mountains, on the leaf and the colour – that’s a great delight, great enjoyment. But when thought comes into it and says, ‘What a lovely morning it is! 43:38 I wish I could have such mornings every day,’ or the remembrance of such a morning and the pleasure of that morning, remembered, is pleasure, isn’t it? You are following what I’m saying? You all look so surprised. What’s the problem? Look, you have an experience, a pleasurable experience, an experience which is delightful, happy, joyous. And you don’t end it there. Thought comes in and says, ‘Let’s have it again, let’s repeat it.’ Which is the pursuit of pleasure, that which was delightful, enjoyable, has become, instantly, a pleasurable thing through the movement of thought. 44:55 You get it? You understand this? So, there is pleasure, there is enjoyment, there is joy. Joy, you can never invite. It comes, happy, an extraordinary, harmonious, marvellous state. And you don’t end it there. Thought says, ‘I must have it again.’ The desire to have it again, is the pursuit of pleasure, not the actual experience. | 42:33 所以只有当我们了解了 不是口头或智力上了解， 而是了解了快感的深层含义， 那时我们才能了解「爱」。 存在着快感，快乐，以及喜悦。 你理解了吗？ 我们会感受到 清晨时分的快感和快乐， 太阳升起来了，清晨时分，鸟儿在歌唱， 阳光洒在山峦间，洒落在叶子上， 那种色彩 ——这是一种巨大的愉悦、巨大的快乐。 然而当思想介入进来，然后说， “这是一个多么美好的早上啊！ 43:38 我希望我每天都能拥有这样的早晨”， 或者你会记住这个早晨， 以及这个早晨带给你的快感， 你记住了它，这就是快感，难道不是吗？ 你们理解我在说的东西吗？ 你们看起来都很惊讶。 有什么问题吗？ 瞧，你有了某种经验， 一种令人愉快的经验， 这种经验令人感到高兴、开心、喜悦。 但你并没有止步于此。 思想介入进来了，然后说，“让我们再次体验它， 让我们重复它吧。 ” 这就是在追求快感了， 那个原本令人高兴和愉快的东西， 经由思想的运动， 它立刻变成了一个带来快感的事物。 44:55 你明白它了吗？你理解它了吗？ 所以，存在着「快感」、「快乐」和「喜悦」。 喜悦是你永远无法邀请来的。 它是自己降临的，幸福，一种非凡的、 和谐的、美妙的状态。 然而你并没有就此止步。 思想说，“我必须要再次体验它。” 这种想要再次经历它的渴望 就是对快感的追求， 而不是那种实际真实的体验。 |
| 45:50 So, there are these factors in pleasure, that which thought pursues, as pleasure, the enjoyment independent of pleasure, the delight, the beauty of something. Talking of beauty, would it be right to talk about it a little bit here? What is beauty? You know when you see something extraordinarily beautiful – the mountain, the deep valleys, shadow, a sheet of water – when you see these marvellous, intense things, at that moment, at that second, ‘you’ are not – ‘you’ with your problems, with your idiocies, with your absurdities, all that’s gone – you’re not there, because the magnitude and the dignity of the glory of a mountain is so enormous, it drives ‘you’ away. Which means, there is beauty only when ‘you’ are not. Got it? | 45:50 所以在快感中存在着这些因素， 思想会把这些东西当成快感来追求： 那种本和快感无关的快乐， 那种愉悦，那种事物的「美」。 说到「美」， 可以在这里稍微谈一下「美」吗？ 什么是「美」？ 你瞧，当你看到某个无比美丽的事物 ——高山、深邃的山谷， 影子，一片水域—— 当你看到这些美妙而强烈的事物后， 在那一刻，在那一秒， “你”不存在了 ——“你”和你的那些问题、愚蠢、 荒谬，所有这些东西都消失了 ——“你”不在那里了， 因为那座高山辉煌壮丽的程度和庄严 是如此的巨大强烈，以至于它把“你”驱赶走了。 这意味着：只有当没有了“你”， 那时才会有「美」。明白了吗？ |
| 47:48 So, we are saying, pleasure, enjoyment, and joy. And to put all this in their right place, is the art of living. But our consciousness, which is our daily life, is so confused, so contradictory, and we are saying, unless you understand, very deeply, pleasure, enjoyment and joy, which goes into great ecstasy, unless there is order in your consciousness, you cannot possibly meditate. And that is what we are doing, now, is to live a way of life which is meditative, not meditate and lead a stupid, mischievous, violent life. So, if pleasure, desire, is not love, if jealousy is not love, if attachment is not love, if being possessed or to possess is not love, and as most human beings live with the pleasures of possession, then what is the relationship between pleasure and love? 50:28 What is the relationship between attachment – you know what attachment is, how it comes into being – and love? What is attachment? My country, my god, my belief, my wife, my husband, the dependence on another, whether it is a guru – and I hope none of you have gurus – then you’re depending on somebody who thinks he knows. When somebody says, ‘I know,’ beware of that person. | 47:48 所以，我们在说：快感、快乐和喜悦。 将这三者放在它们正确的位置上， 这就是生活的艺术。 然而我们的意识 ——也就是我们的日常生活—— 它是如此的困惑，如此的自相矛盾， 因此我们说： 除非你非常深刻地理解了 快感、快乐和喜悦， 喜悦会转化为巨大的狂喜， 除非你的意识有了秩序， 否则你是不可能冥想的。 而这就是我们现在正在做的事情， 也就是以冥想的方式去生活， 而不是去冥想，同时却过着一种 愚蠢的、有害的、暴力的生活。 所以，如果快感和欲望不是爱， 如果嫉妒不是爱，如果执著依恋不是爱， 如果被占有或者去占有不是爱 ——因为绝大多数人的生活中 都有着占有的快感—— 那么快感和爱的关系是什么呢？ 50:28 执著依恋和爱的关系又是什么呢 ——你应该知道什么是执著， 以及它是如何出现的—— 它和爱的关系是什么呢？ 什么是执著？ 我的国家、我的上帝、我的信仰、 我的妻子、我的丈夫， 执著依赖于别人， 不管他是古鲁也好 我希望你们中没有人有古鲁。 因为那样你就会依赖于某个 自认为知晓一切的人。 当某人说“我知道”的时候， 你就要当心那个人了。 |
| 51:32 So, to understand what is the relationship between pleasure and love, you must understand what is relationship between human beings. Right? What is the relationship between human beings, actually? Have they any relationship at all? Or it’s only relationship of reactions, a sense of dependency, sexual and all the rest of it. When you say, ‘I’m related to my wife or to my girlfriend or boyfriend,’ what does it mean? Go into it, for God’s sake, because this is your life. 52:35 What does it actually mean? Are you really related? Or merely the idea, the thought of being related? You follow what I’m saying? If it is the thought of being related, that relationship is based on remembrance – remembrance of hurts, remembrance of sexual pleasures, remembrance of dependence, and so on. So, your relationship is based on the remembrance of things past, and to that relationship we hold. So, she has a remembrance of things past, and you have a remembrance of things past, so you never meet. 54:02 You are understanding all this? Are you understanding all this? Perhaps you meet in bed but, actually, you never meet. Which is, as long as your relationship is based on remembrance of things of the past, then you are not related. You may call it ‘love. ’ It’s a dead thing. And that’s why there is such conflict between man and woman. Right, sir? | 51:32 所以，要了解快感和爱之间 的关系是什么， 你就必须了解人与人之间的关系是什么。 对吧？ 人与人之间的关系实际上是什么呢？ 他们之间真的有任何关系吗？ 还是说它只是基于各种反应的关系， 那种依赖感，性快感，等等这些东西。 当你说，“我和我的妻子有关系， 或者我和我的女朋友或男朋友有关系”时， 这是什么意思呢？ 看在上帝的份上，请探究它， 因为这是你的生活。 52:35 它真正的含义是什么呢？ 你们真的有关系吗？ 还是说，你仅仅只是 觉得、认为你们有关系？ 你们理解我的话了吗？ 如果是认为你们有关系， 那么这种关系就是建立在「回忆」之上的 ——回忆各种伤害，回忆性快感， 回忆那种依赖，等等。 所以，你们的关系是建立在 对于过去事情的回忆之上的， 而我们紧抓不放的就是这种关系。 所以，她有着对于过往事情的回忆， 而你也有着对于过去事情的回忆， 因此你们两人从未“相遇”过。 54:02 你们正在理解这一切吗？ 你们明白这一切了吗？ 你们也许会在床上相遇， 但事实上，你们从未相遇过。 也就是说，只要你们的关系 还是建立在对于过往事情的回忆之上， 你们之间就没有关系。 你或许会把它称为“爱”。 但它却是一个死气沉沉的东西。 这就是为什么男人和女人之间 会有这种冲突。 对吧，先生？ |
| 54:48 So, listen to it, not what to do about it. If you listen, as we said, the art of listening, to be sensitive, to be alert, to be watchful, now. If you are doing that, now, the art of listening, you will see, you will put thought in its right place. Then you’ll have an actual relationship with another, and, therefore, never conflict with another. | 54:48 所以请聆听它， 而不是如何去处理它。 就如我们所说的，如果你能聆听， 学会了聆听的艺术， 此刻就变得敏感、警觉和留心注意。 如果你现在就在这么做， 有了这种聆听的艺术， 那么你就会明白，你就会将思想 放置在它正确的位置上了。 那时你就会和他人拥有真正的关系， 从而永远不会和他人产生冲突。 |
| 55:31 What time is it? It is twelve o’clock. Probably most of you will be glad it is twelve o’clock, but let’s go… I’ll go on a little while and then we will stop because you can’t stand more than an hour of this kind of talk. Because if you are working as the speaker is working, for you, your brains will not stand more than an hour. But, if you are not working as the speaker is working then you say, ‘Please go on.’ | 55:31 现在几点了？已经十二点了。 也许你们大多数人会很高兴 现在已经十二点了， 但让我们继续……我将会继续再说一会儿， 然后我们就结束， 因为你是无法忍受 这样的演讲超过一个小时的。 因为如果你们是像演讲者为你们工作那样 在运转工作的话， 你们的大脑将无法承受超过一个小时的时间。 但如果你们的工作强度不及演讲者， 那你们就会说“请继续讲下去吧”。 |
| 56:24 So, we have come to a point in the understanding of our consciousness, which is our life, which is our daily, everyday life. In that consciousness, there is the desire for power, the many hurts that one has received from childhood. Then there is fear, pleasure and the thing that we call ‘love,’ which is not love. And the innumerable beliefs that we have – I believe in God, I don’t believe in God, I believe in socialism, I believe in... 57:15 You follow? Belief. And belief indicates a life which is based on make-belief, which is nothing to do with actuality. So, we are bringing order in consciousness. Not by wanting order, not by making an effort to bring about order, but by listening, seeing, learning. To listen, there must be no direction. You understand? To see, there must be no distortion. And to learn, not to memorise, there must be freedom to observe, to learn, to watch. | 56:24 所以我们已经讨论到了这一步， 那就是要了解我们的意识， 我们的意识就是我们的生活， 它就是我们每天的、日常的生活。 在那种意识中，有着对权力的渴望， 以及无数我们从小开始所受到的伤害。 然后还有恐惧、快感， 以及我们称之为“爱”的东西 ——但它并不是爱。 还有我们所怀有的无数信仰 ——我信仰上帝，我不信仰上帝， 我信仰社会主义，我信仰资本 57:15 你跟上了吗？信仰。 而信仰表明了一种基于虚幻事物的生活， 它和现实没有任何关系。 所以，我们正在给意识带来秩序。 不是通过渴求秩序， 不是通过努力带来秩序， 而是通过聆听、观察和学习。 而要聆听，我们就必须没有方向。 你们理解了吗？ 而要观察，我们就必须没有扭曲。 而要学习，我们就不能去记忆， 我们必须能够自由地去观察、学习和看。 |
| 58:29 So, we’ll discuss when we meet next time, Saturday, what is love, and its relationship to sorrow. And, if there is time, we’ll go into the question of what is death, because that’s one of the factors of life, the dying. And, unfortunately, we never face it. To find out what it means to die while living, while you’re full of life – not neurotic life, sane, healthy life – to find out the depth and the meaning of that extraordinary thing called death. And it is related to love. Love is not separate from life and death. | 58:29 所以，当我们下一次见面，周六的时候， 我们将会来讨论一下： 什么是爱，以及爱和痛苦的关系。 而如果还有时间， 我们还会来探讨一下 关于“什么是死亡”的问题， 因为“走向死亡”也是生命中的一个因素。 但遗憾的是，我们从来没有面对过死亡。 去发现“在活着的时候死去”是什么意思， 也就是在你充满生命活力的时候 ——不是神经质的生命活力， 而是心智健全的、健康的生命活力—— 去发现这个被称为「死亡」的非凡之物的 深度和意义。 而死亡和爱是相关联的。 爱和「生命与死亡」并不是分离的。 |
| 59:45 Right, sir? Is that enough? | 59:45 好了吧，先生？讲到这里应该够了吧？ |
