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OJ80Q3 - 第三次问答会
美国，加州，欧亥
1980年5月13日



0:16 There have been many, many questions written down but we can't answer all of them. In answering these questions, or rather enquiring into these questions, we are both involved in it. Not just the speaker answering the questions but both you and the speaker are sharing in the question. So don't just please merely listen to what the speaker is saying but rather join in with the speaker in answering the questions. 大家写下来的问题有很多， 但我们无法一一作答。 在回答这些问题时，或者更确切地说， 在探询这些问题的过程中，你我都要参与进来。 不仅仅是由讲话者本人来回答这些问题， 而且你和讲话者要在问答中一起来分享。 所以，不要仅仅只是聆听讲话者说的话， 更要与讲话者一同参与到问题的回答中去。
1:18 First question: 'What is true creativity? And how is it different from that which is celebrated in popular culture?' 第一个问题：“什么是真正的创造力？ 它与流行文化中所推崇的创造力 有什么区别？”
1:29 'What is true creativity? And how is it different from that which is celebrated in popular culture?' “什么是真正的创造力？ 它与流行文化中所推崇的创造力 有什么区别？”
2:00 What is generally called creativity is mostly man-made: painting, music, literature both romantic and factual, all the architecture, the marvellous technology and all those who are involved in all this, the painters, the writers, the poets, the philosophical writers probably consider themselves as creative. And we all seem to agree with them. That's the popular idea of what is a creative person. We agree to that? I think we all see that. That all man-made things most beautiful, the great cathedrals, temples and Islamic mosques are extraordinarily, some of them are extraordinarily beautiful. I don't know if you have seen them and if you have, they are really marvellous. And the people who built these were anonymous, we don't know who built them. They were only concerned with building, writing the Bible, all that. Nobody knows who wrote them. But now, with us, anonymity is almost gone. And perhaps with anonymity there is a different kind of creativity. It is not based on success, money, and 28 million books sold in 10 years, and so on, so on. The speaker himself at one time tried anonymity because the speaker doesn't like all this fuss and nonsense. He tried to talk behind a curtain! (Laughter) And it became rather absurd. (Laughter) 我们通常所指的创造力大都是人为的： 浪漫主义和写实主义的绘画、音乐、文学作品， 所有那些建筑，非凡的科技， 以及参与其中的人们： 画家、作家、诗人以及哲学论著者们， 这些人也许自认为有创造力。 而我们似乎也都同意他们的这一看法。 这是用来界定个人是否有创造力的普遍观点。 我们同意这种看法吗？ 我想我们都是这样认为的。 所有那些人为制造的极其美丽的作品： 那些宏伟的大教堂、庙宇，还有清真寺， 都非比寻常，其中一些不可思议地美丽。 我不知道你是否见过它们， 如果你见过，它们的确是美轮美奂。 那些建造它们的人都默默无闻， 我们不知道是谁建造了它们。 那些人只关心建造、 书写圣经等等之类的事情。没人知道是谁写的。 但是现在，在我们周围，默默无闻的情况已经几乎不存在了。 而也许在这种默默无闻的做法中， 才蕴含着一种不同的创造力。 这种创造力不是建立在成功和金钱的基础上， 不是建立在著作销量10年间达到2800万等等这些的基础上。 讲话者本人曾经一度尝试过匿名的做法， 因为讲话者不喜欢所有这些小题大做和荒唐做法。 他尝试过在一个幕帘后演讲！（笑声） 这件事后来变得相当可笑。（笑声）
5:28 So anonymity has great importance. In that there is a different quality, different... this personal motive doesn't exist, the personal attitudes and personal opinions, it is a feeling of freedom from which you are acting. But most creativity, as we call it, is man-made. That is, this creation takes from the known. Right? The known. The great musicians, Beethoven, Bach and so on, it is from the known they act. And the writers, philosophers and so on also have read, accumulated, developed their own style and so on, always moving - or acting or writing - from that which has been accumulated, known. And this we call, generally, creativity. 所以不为人知有相当的重要性。 那当中蕴含着一种不同的品质，不同的 那种个人的动机、个人的态度， 还有那些个人的观点都不存在了， 你的所作所为源于一种自由的感觉。 但是我们所说的创造力，大多是人为制造的。 也就是说，那种创造都来自于已知。 对吗？已知。 伟大的音乐家们，如贝多芬、巴赫等等， 他们的创作都来自于已知。 那些作家、哲学家等等也都通过阅读学习、 积累并发展出自己的风格等等， 总是从那些累积起来的、已知的知识中 来行动——创作和写作。 而我们通常称其为创造力。
7:01 Now is that really creative? Please, let's talk about it. Or is there a different kind of creativity which is born out of the freedom from the known? You understand my question? Because when we paint, write, create a marvellous structure out of stone, it is the accumulated knowledge whether in the scientific field or in the world of art - human art - there is always this sense of carrying from the past to the present. Or imagination, romantic, factual, maudlin and so on. Is there creativity, something totally different from this activity that we call generally creativity? You are following? 而那具有真正的创造力吗？ 让我们来讨论一下。 还是说，有没有一种不同的创造力 脱胎于摆脱了已知的自由？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 因为当我们绘画、写作， 从石头中雕刻出一个美妙的形象的时候， 那些都源自积累的知识， 不论是在科技领域的还是艺术领域的知识 ——“人类艺术”——总是有这种 从过去传承到现在的意味。 或是那些浪漫的、现实的、伤感的想象等等。 有没有一种创造力是截然不同的， 和我们平时称为创造力的那种活动截然不同？ 你明白吗？
8:38 We are asking, and I think it is rather an important question to go into if you are willing, whether there is an action, there is a living, there is a movement which is not from the known. That is, is there a creation from a mind that is not burdened from all the turmoils of life, from all the social pressures, economic and so on, is there a creation out of a mind that has freed itself from the known? And it can then use memory - you understand what I'm saying? - knowledge. But we start with knowledge and that we call creative. But we are suggesting that there is a creativity which is not born out of the known. When that creative impulse, or movement takes place it can then use the known. But not the other way round. I don't know if you are following what I am saying. 我们所问的，我认为是一个非常重要的 值得深入探讨的问题，如果你们愿意的话， 那就是，有没有一种行动、一种生活、一种运动 并非来源于已知， 也就是说，有没有一种创造是来自于 一个没有被生活中所有的混乱、 所有的社会压力、经济压力等等所负累的头脑， 有没有一种创造是来源于 一个从已知中解脱了的头脑？ 而它此时能够去运用记忆 ——你明白我的意思吗？——知识。 但我们从知识出发并称之为创造。 但我们认为有一种创造力 并非脱胎于已知。 而是当一种有创造力的冲动或运动产生的时候， 它可以运用知识，但不是反过来的次序。 我不知道你是不是明白了我所说的意思。
10:25 If you don't mind some time, try, or be in a ... Find out whether the mind can ever be free from the known. The known being all the accumulated experience, remembrance, the knowledge that one has acquired, the impressions and so on, whether the mind can be free from all that. And in that very state of mind creation as we know it may not be necessary. You understand? A man who has a talent for writing feels he must express himself. He develops his own style, the way he writes - Keats, Eliot and so on and the others. They have this impulse to write, fulfil, create. Perhaps their own lives are rather not all that beautiful like Michelangelo, Raphael and all those people. Sorry to quote these names. I am not learned but I have visited many museums when I was young. I was pushed into it, all that (laughter) and the remnants of all that remains. And I have talked to a great many artists writers, friends and so on. 如果你不介意在某些时候去尝试一下，或是 看看头脑究竟是否可以从已知中解脱。 已知是积累的所有经验， 人们在过去获取的所有记忆、知识、 印象等等， 头脑是否可以摆脱这一切获得自由。 在这种头脑状态下， 我们所认为的那种创造也许就不那么必要了。 你明白吗？ 一个有写作天赋的人觉得他必须要写出来， 他形成自己的风格， 他写作的风格——济慈，艾略特等等以及其他的人， 他们有这种冲动去写作、去完成、去创作。 也许他们自身的生活并不都是那么美好， 就像米开朗基罗、拉斐尔，还有其他那些人。 很抱歉我引用了这些名字。 我并非博文广识，但我年轻时参观过很多博物馆， 我是被强迫去参观所有那些博物馆的，（笑声） 所以一些与之相关的记忆还残留着。 我曾和许多艺术家、作家、朋友等等 交谈过。
12:46 It seems to me that all our creation in the scientific world, in all the human art, it is always from a point, from a talent, from a gift, and that gift is exploited to its fullest extent. Like a musician who has a gift a prodigy, he becomes tremendously important. And we, common people, admire all that and wish we had some of that. As we haven't got it we run after them. We almost worship them - the conductors. You know all the game that goes on. 在我看来，我们在科学领域和艺术领域的所有创造 都来自于一个点， 来自于某种天赋、某种才能， 然后这种天分被开发殆尽。 就像一个天才的音乐家， 一个神童，他变得非常了不起。 而我们这些普通人仰慕他的一切， 并且希望自己也能拥有一些这样的天赋。 因为我们没有我们就去追求。 我们几乎是崇拜他们——那些指挥家。 你了解上演的所有这些把戏。
13:54 And when you begin to question what is creativity, as the questioner is asking, is it something totally different, which I think we all can have. Not the specialists, not the professionals not the talented, gifted. I think we can all have this extraordinary mind that is really free from all the burden which man has imposed upon himself, created for himself. And then out of that sane, rational, healthy life, something totally different comes. And that may not necessarily be expressed as in painting, architecture. Why should one? You follow? If you have gone into this fairly deeply, and I hope you will, you will find out that there is a state of mind which actually has no experience whatsoever. Because experience implies a mind that is still groping, asking, seeking, and therefore struggling in darkness and wanting to go beyond it. But a mind that is very clear, not confused, has no conflict, has no problem - you understand? - has no problem. You try. Such a mind has no need to express, talk. I am talking, sorry! (Laughter) The speaker is talking not because he wants to impress you or anything of that kind which is too silly, or persuade you to certain attitudes and opinions and judgements, it is a kind of friendly communication with two people who are concerned with all this enormous complex life, who haven't found a complete total answer to all this. And there is a complete and total answer if we apply our minds, our hearts to this. 而当你开始质疑 什么是创造力， 就像提问者所问的那样， 它是不是某种截然不同的东西，而我认为我们每个人都能拥有它。 不仅仅是专家、专业人士、 天才、有天赋的人才能拥有。 我认为每个人都可以拥有这种超凡的头脑， 从人们加诸自身的、自己制造的 所有这些重担中真正解脱出来的头脑。 而后在清醒、理性、健康的生活中， 一些截然不同的事情就会发生。 也许这些并不一定 要用绘画或建筑来表达，何必呢？你明白吗？ 如果你非常深入地探究了这些，我希望你能这样做， 你就会发现有一种头脑的状态 确实没有任何经验。 因为经验意味着头脑还在摸索， 还在寻找、探寻，所以还在黑暗中挣扎， 并想要挣脱出来。 但是一个非常清晰的头脑， 是没有困惑、没有冲突、没有任何问题的 ——你明白吗？——没有问题。 你尝试一下。 这样的头脑没有表达和演讲的需要。 我正在演讲，对不起！（笑声） 讲话者正在演讲，不是因为 他想要给你留下什么印象，或其他诸如此类的原因， 那就太愚蠢了，也不是想劝说你 抱有某种态度、观点或是持某种判断， 而是这是两个人之间的一种友好的交流， 这两个人都关心这个广大而又复杂的生活中的一切， 他们还没有找到一个彻底而又完整的答案。 如果我们为此投入我们的头脑、我们的心， 就会有彻底而又完整的答案。
17:28 So there is a creativity which is not man-made. Don't please say, that is God-made, that has no meaning either because if our own minds are extraordinarily clear without a shadow of conflict then that mind is really in a state of creation which needs no expression, no fulfilment or all that publicity and nonsense. 所以说一种并非人造的创造力是存在的。 请不要说，那是神造的， 那样也没有意义， 因为如果我们的头脑是无比清晰的， 没有任何冲突的阴影， 那么这样的头脑实际上就处于创造状态中。 这样的头脑不需要表达，不需要达成什么， 也不需要诸如出名之类的荒唐事。
18:19 Second question: 'You have said that in the very seeing there is action. Is this action the same as the expression of action? If not, is there a connection between the two and how do they possibly relate to suppression?' 第二个问题：“你曾经说过， ‘看到’本身之中就会有行动。 那么这个行动与行动的表达是不是一回事？ 如果不是，两者之间是否有某种联系呢？ 这两者又有没有可能涉及到抑制呢？”
18:44 'You have said that in the very seeing there is action. Is this action the same as the expression of action? If not, is there a connection between the two and how do they possibly relate to suppression?' You have said that in the very seeing there is action. Is this action the same as the expression of action? If not, is there a connection between the two and how do they possibly relate to suppression? “你曾经说过‘看到’本身之中就会有行动。 那么这个行动与行动的表达是不是一回事？ 如果不是，两者之间是否有某种联系呢？ 这两者又如何可能涉及到抑制呢？” 你曾经说过“看到”本身之中就会有行动。 那么这个行动与行动的表达是不是一回事？ 如果不是，两者之间是否有某种联系呢？ 这两者又如何可能涉及到抑制呢？
19:36 What the speaker said was, if he remembers rightly that in observation the very observation is action. There is an observation of greed - observation - which is to observe without any distortion, without motive, without saying, 'I must go beyond it' and all that, just to observe this greed movement. And that very observation sees the whole movement of it, not just one particular form of greed but the whole movement of greed, and that perception that seeing, that observation, ends the movement. That is what he calls action. 讲话者曾说过的是，如果他没记错的话， 在观察中，观察本身就是行动。 比如观察贪婪——观察—— 意味着去观察而没有任何扭曲、 没有动机，也不说 “我必须超越它”以及诸如此类的一切， 只是观察贪婪这个活动。 那么那种观察本身就可以看到贪婪的整个活动， 不仅只是贪婪的某一种特定的形式， 而是贪婪的整个活动，这种感知、 这种看到、这种观察，就终止了贪婪这个活动。 这就是他所说的行动。
20:43 There is no interval - this I must... please forgive me if I go into it a little bit more - there is no interval in seeing and acting. One must be careful here. It is not impulsive acting. It is not saying, 'I feel like it and I'll act'. That's what we are all doing. But what we are saying is that, in observing greed - I am taking that as an example - in observing greed, hatred, violence, whatever it is, when that observation is completely non-directive - right?- then there is no interval between the seeing and the acting. Whereas we have intervals: seeing, concluding, abstracting an idea and then carrying out that idea which is the interval between the creation of an idea and the acting of that idea. I don't know if you are following this. If you observe yourself this is what goes on. This time interval in which all kinds of other problems arise. Whereas the seeing is the very movement of ending greed. 这中间没有间隔——这点我必须 请原谅我必须就这个问题再深入一点—— 观察和行动之中没有间隔。 我们在这里必须要小心。这不是冲动的行为。 不是说“我觉得想做我就要去做”。 我们实际上都在这么做。 而我们所说的是指，在观察贪婪 ——我用这个作为例子—— 在观察贪婪、仇恨、暴力等等的过程中， 当这种观察没有任何指向时 ——对吗？—— 那么看到和行动之间就不会有间隔。 反而就会有间隔出现：观察，总结， 抽象出一个想法，然后实施这个想法， 这就是在产生一个想法和把这个想法付诸实现 之间的间隔。 我不知道你有没有明白这点。 如果你观察自己，这就是所发生的事情。 在这种时间间隔中就产生了各种各样的问题。 然而“看到”本身就是终结贪婪的活动。
22:39 Now the questioner says, is this action the same as the expression of action? Have you understood? Is this the same as the expression of action? That is, you see a cobra, a snake, there is instant expression of self-preservation, self-protection, which is natural, healthy and so on unless you are some kind of peculiar person then you play with these things. But the self-possessive instinct is immediate: to run away, or do something about it. There the seeing has expressed itself in action, physical action. Right? We are talking of not only physical observation but also the observation with the whole of your mind. Not partial observation - which we do - but to be so attentive that it is the whole of the mind, if you can do this. I don't know if you have tried all these things. That is, to give complete attention. Right? That means: attention implies there is no centre from which you are attending. I don't know if you follow this. Must I go into all this? All right. 现在提问者问道：这个行动 与行动的表达是一回事吗？ 你明白了吗？ 这和行动的表达是一回事吗？ 也就是说，当你看见一条蛇，一条眼镜蛇， 你会马上有自我保护的表现， 自我保护，是自然的、健康的， 除非你是特殊的那类人， 那么你可以和这些东西玩耍。 但自我保护的本能是即刻发生的: 跑掉或做些什么事情。 在这里，观察通过行动，身体上的行动表达了自身。 对吗？ 我们所说的不仅是身体上的观察， 还包括用你的整个头脑去观察。 不是像我们经常做的那种局部的观察，而是全神贯注地、 全心全意地观察——如果你能这么做的话。 我不知道你是否尝试过这样做。 也就是说付出全部的注意力。 对吗？这就是说：关注意味着 你的注意力不是来自于一个中心。 我不知道你是否跟得上这点。 我需要深入讲这些吗？好的。
25:01 When you concentrate it is from a centre, from a point to point. I don't know if you understand it. Therefore it is limited, restricted, narrow. Whereas attention has no centre, you attend! I don't know if you follow this. If you now - forgive me for pointing out - if you are really attending now you will see you are not attending from a point. Right? So find out for yourself - if you are willing, I am not persuading you, or anything of that kind, it is not group therapy and all that business - if you are willing, just see if you can completely attend. That is you hear, you see, you feel everything in your mind is alive, attending. Then you will find out that there is no point from which you are attending, from a point to point. In that attention there is no border. Whereas concentration has a border. 当你专注时，注意力来自于一个中心，从一点到另一点。 我不知道你是否明白这个。 因此注意力是有局限的，受到了限制，是狭隘的。 而当注意力没有中心时你就全神贯注了！ 我不知道你是否明白了这点。 如果你现在——请原谅我指出这一点—— 如果你现在真正在全神贯注， 你就会发现你不是仅仅从某一点出发去关注的。 对吗？ 所以如果你愿意，就自己去弄清楚， 我不是在劝说你，或其他诸如此类的， 这不是团体疗法或其他类似的活动。 如果你愿意，就来试试你是否可以全神贯注。 你所听到的、看到的、感受到的， 你心里所有的一切都是活生生的，在关注着。 然后你会发现你的注意力， 并不是来自于某个点，不是从一点到一点。 这种关注之中是没有边界的。 而专注则是有边界的。
26:44 'If not, is there a connection between the two and how do they possibly relate to suppression?' I am not quite sure I understand the question. Is there a connection between the two that is: the physical action which is when you see a danger you move away immediately; and the perception, the observation which ends a particular reaction - as called greed - ending totally, not partially. The questioner says, asks,'Is there a connection between these two and how do they possibly relate to suppression'. There is no suppression. “如果不是这样，两者间是否有联系， 这两者又是怎么与抑制相关联的？” 我不确定我明白你提的问题。 这两者间是否有联系？ 也就是说，身体上的反应， 当你看到危险你会立刻躲避； 这种感知，这种观察 可以终结某种反应——比如所谓的贪婪—— 是彻底终结，而不是结束一部分。 提问者问道：“这两者间是否有联系？ 并且它们又是如何与抑制相关的？” 这里没有抑制。
27:51 Look sir, all right, let's take greed as we did the day before yesterday. Greed, we all know: how it arises what are its responses and so on. In observing greed, if there is a division between the observer and the observed, that is, there is greed and I say, 'I am greedy' which means I am separate from that thing called greed. Right? You are following? So in this separation there is either conflict, suppression, overcoming it and so on, all the travail that comes about in this division. But this division actually doesn't exist if you go into it. Greed is me, is the observer! Right? I wonder if you understand this. May I go on? Greed is not separate from the person who is observing as though he were different from the observer. We are saying the observer is the observed, which doesn't mean: I observe the tree, I am the tree. I would end up in an asylum. But we are saying, when there is this reaction which is named as greed, that greed is not different from the me who is observing it. So you eliminate altogether the division. In that there is no suppression - you follow? - you are that! If you come to that point - you understand? - when you say 'Yes, I am that', not as an idea but as an actuality, then a totally different movement takes place. I don't know if you have tried it after these weeks of talking you must have tried one of these things. If you have, you must have found out. Test it. 看吧，先生，我们来说说贪婪， 正如我们前天所谈到的那样。 贪婪，我们都知道它是如何形成的， 它的反应是什么等等。 在观察贪婪的过程中，如果在观察者和 被观察者之间存在划分， 也就是说，有贪婪，而我又说“我是贪婪的”， 这就意味着我自己和所谓的贪婪是分开的。 对吗？你跟上了吗？ 在分离中要么出现冲突， 要么有压抑、克服等等， 因为划分而产生种种痛苦。 但是如果你深入探究下去，会发现这种分别其实并不存在。 贪婪就是我，就是观察者！对吗？ 我不知道你是否懂了这点。我可以继续讲下去吗？ 贪婪和观察贪婪的人并不是分开的， 就好像它和观察者是不同的。 我们说观察者就是被观察者， 并不意味着：我观察一棵树，我就是树。 那样的话我就进精神病院了。 我们只是说，当一个被称为贪婪的反应 发生时，这个贪婪 和正在观察它的我没有分别。 于是你消除了所有的划分。 这里没有抑制——你明白吗？——你就是那个！ 如果你了解了这点——你明白吗？——当你说 “是的，我就是那个”，不是作为一个想法而是一个事实， 一种截然不同的运动就发生了。 我不知道在这几周的谈话后你有没有尝试去这么做。 你一定尝试做过其中的某一件事。 如果你试过，你就一定会发现真相。 检验一下。
30:41 That is, the total absence of conflict which is an extraordinary thing because you have broken the pattern of this division which creates conflict. 也就是说冲突完全不存在了， 这是一件非同寻常的事情，因为你打破了 那种会制造冲突的分裂的模式。
31:13 Third question: 'For the making of images to end must thought also end? Is one necessarily implied in the other? Is the end of image-making merely a foundation upon which one can begin to discover what love and truth are? Or is that ending the very essence of truth and love?' 第三个问题：“要停止制造意象， 是否思想也必须停止？ 它们中的一个是否隐含着另一个？ 停止制造意象是否仅仅是 人们能够开始了解什么是真理和爱这件事的基础？ 还是说停止制造意象正是爱和真理的核心本质？”
31:47 'For the making of images to end must thought also end? Is one necessarily implied in the other? Is the end of image-making merely a foundation upon which one can begin to discover what love and truth are? Or is that ending the very essence of truth and love?' “要停止制造意象，思想是否也必须停止？ 它们中的一个是否隐含着另一个？ 停止制造意象是否单纯只是 人们开始了解什么是真理和爱这件事的基础？ 还是说终结制造意象正是爱和真理的核心本质？”
32:23 We've talked about it the other day, how images are made. We will go into it again because we live by images not only actual image created by the hand but by the images created by the mind, by thought. These images are continuously added and taken, diminished. This is the movement that we go through. I don't know if you are watching your own images that you have. You have your own image about yourself. If you are a writer you have an image of yourself if you are a poet you have an image if you are a wife, husband and all the rest of it each one has created for himself an image about himself. This begins from childhood through comparison, through suggestion, by saying you must be as good as the other chap or you must not do, or you must, so gradually this accumulative process begins. And in our relationships, personal and otherwise, there is always this image: man, woman and all the rest of that. And as long as this image exists you are either wounded, bruised, hurt, or this image prevents having actual relationship with another. We explained and have gone into this. 我们前几天曾经讲过这个话题，意象如何制造出来的问题。 我们再来探讨一下，因为我们都靠着意象生活， 不仅是手工制造出的实实在在的形象， 还有用头脑和思想塑造出来的形象。 这些形象不断地在增减、消失。 这是我们都会经历的活动。 我不知道你有没有观察过你抱有的那些形象。 你对自己有自我认定的形象。 如果你是一个作家，你会拥有一个关于自身的形象， 如果你是一个诗人，你会有一个形象， 如果你是一个妻子、一个丈夫以及所有诸如此类的人， 每个人都塑造了一个关于自己的形象。 这从孩提时代就开始了， 通过比较，通过暗示， 通过告诉你必须要和别人一样好， 或是你一定不能做什么，或必须要做什么， 于是这个积累性的过程就逐渐开始了。 在我们的相互关系中，无论是私人关系还是其他关系， 总存在这些形象： 男人，女人以及所有这些。 只要这些形象存在， 你要么会受伤，变得伤痕累累， 要么这些形象会阻碍你与其他人产生真正的关系。 我们曾经解释并深入讨论过这些问题。
34:42 Now the questioner says, can this ever end or is it something with which we have to live everlastingly, and, in the very ending of the image, does thought end? And he asks also, are they interrelated, image and thought? And when the image-making machinery comes to an end is that the very essence of love and truth? That is more or less what he means. Have you ever actually ended an image? Voluntarily, easily, without any compulsion, without any motive, without saying, 'I must end my image, I won't be hurt' and all the rest of it. Just voluntarily, pleasantly, easily, happily, ended the image you have: the image of God, the image of - you know all that, various kinds - take one image and go into it. In going into it you discover the whole movement of making images. You understand what I am saying? That is, if one has an image, let's say a belief which is an image, go into it. That image, you begin to discover in the very ending of it, there is fear, there is anxiety, there is a sense of isolation and so you see the image-making involves all this. And if you are frightened you carry on. You say it is much better to keep something I know rather than something I don't know. Right? Whereas if you go into it fairly seriously and deeply who is the maker of this image? Not one particular image but the image-making machinery, the whole of it. Is it thought? Is it the natural response, natural reaction to protect oneself? Wait a minute, don't agree yet, don't agree. The natural reaction to protect, protect physically and protect psychologically. One can understand the natural response of protecting physically: how to have food, to have shelter, to have clothes, not to be run over by buses and so on, not to jump down a precipice. That is a natural, healthy, intelligent response. In that there is no image. I don't know if you follow this. When you see a precipice, you move away. It is not the image that is moving away, it is the physical danger you see and the physical danger and the self-protective reaction makes you move. In that there is no image. I don't know if you see that. 现在提问者问，这些是否可以停止， 还是说它会永远跟随我们， 并且，在停止制造意象后，思想是否也停止了？ 他还问到了，思想和意象是否是相互关联的？ 当制造意象的机制终结后， 是否这就是爱和真理的核心所在？ 这或多或少就是他问题的含义。 你可曾真正地终结过一个意象？ 自发地、轻松地终结，不是被迫的，也不含任何动机， 不是说“我必须终结我的形象， 我就不会受到伤害”等等这些。 而只是自发地、愉快地、轻松地、快乐地 终结你抱有的这些意象： 上帝的形象，以及你所知道的 其他各种各样的意象——挑一个来深入探究。 随着你的深入，你就会发现 制造这些意象的整个活动过程。 你明白我所说的吗？ 也就是说，如果你有个意象，比如一个信仰， 这个信仰是个意象，深入它， 你会发现这个意象， 在它的最深处，有恐惧， 有焦虑，还有孤独感， 进而你会发现制造意象的过程中包含了所有这些情绪。 如果你惧怕了，你就会依然故我。 你说，和未知相比， 安于已知的感觉要好多了。 对吗？ 然而，如果你非常认真和深入地去探究， 那么谁是这些意象的制造者呢？ 不是指某个特定的意象， 而是制造意象的机制， 这整个过程。 是思想吗？ 是自然的反应吗， 自我保护的自然反应？ 别着急，先不要同意，不要同意。 出于自我保护的自然反应， 进行身体上的保护、 心理上的保护。 我们可以理解身体上出于自我保护的自然反应， 如何获取食物、找到住处和衣物， 避免被汽车撞到， 不要从峭壁上跳下等等。 这是自然、健康、机智的反应。 这其中并没有意象。我不知道你是否明白这些。 当你看到悬崖你就会离开。 这并不是你的意像使你离开的， 是你看到了实在的危险，这实在的危险 和自我保护反应使你离开的。 在这当中没有意象。我不知道你有没有明白。
39:28 But psychologically, inwardly, we have created this image. And this image is the outcome of a series of incidents, accidents, hurts, irritations, you know, which is after all the state of a mind which is inattentive. I don't know if you follow this. May I go on? You are following this? Does it interest you, all this? Don't agree with me, do it for yourself. Please, I don't care if you flatter me, if you agree with me it is nothing to me. You follow? Unless you want to do it, don't do it. If you want to do it, do it. This psychological image-making is it the movement of thought? You understand? We know thought doesn't - perhaps very, very infinitely thought enters in self-protective reaction, physically - but the psychological image-making must be the outcome of constant inattention which is the very essence of thought. I wonder if you get it. You understand what I said, sir, just now? Thought in itself is inattentive. Please, I've carefully explained previously that attention has no centre, it has no point from which to go to another point which is concentration. When there is complete attention there is no movement of thought. It's only the state of mind that is inattentive and thought then - which is always partial and therefore not completely attentive - creates the image. I wonder if you've followed this. 但是从心理上，在内心你制造了一个意象， 而这个意象是一系列事件、 意外、伤害、愤怒等等的产物， 那归根结底是一种漫不经心的心智状态。 我不知道你是否跟得上这些。 我可以继续吗？你跟得上吗？ 你对这些有兴趣吗？ 不要同意我说的，自己思考一下， 我不在乎你是否认同我或恭维我， 这对我没有任何意义。你明白吗？ 除非你愿意这么做，否则就不要做。 如果你想做，就做吧。 这种心理上的意象制造机制， 是不是思想的运动呢？ 你明白吗？ 我们知道思想并不——也许在生理上， 思想产生的自我保护反应是无限广阔的—— 但是心理上的意象制造 一定是长期漫不经心的结果， 这也是思想的真正核心。 我不知道你是否能明白。 你明白我刚刚所讲的吗，先生？ 思想本身就是漫不经心的。 拜托，我之前已经仔细解释过了 那种关注是没有中心的， 不是像集中注意力那样从一点 到另一点。当全然的关注发生时， 其中是没有思想运动的。 只有这种漫不经心的心智状态 和此时的思想——思想总是局部的 因而无法全神贯注——才会制造意象。 我不知道你是否跟得上这些。
42:06 Have you followed a little bit? Look, I am inattentive, I am doing something else, you know, inattentive. My wife or friend or somebody tells me, 'You are silly' and immediately I have formed an image. Or somebody says, 'What a marvellous person you are' I have formed an image. Which is, the state of inattention, lacking attention, creates the image, by thought which in itself is inattentive. Got it? I have discovered something new. Right? Because - please look at it carefully for yourself - thought which is matter, thought which is the outcome of memory, memory the outcome of experience, knowledge, and that must always be limited, partial. Memory, knowledge, can never be complete. Right? Can never be complete. Therefore it is partial, therefore it is inattentive. Thought is inattentive in itself. I wonder if you see that. 你能领会一点点吗？你看，我现在漫不经心， 我在做别的事情，你知道，漫不经心。 我的妻子或朋友，或别的什么人说我“你真傻”， 我心里马上就生成了一个形象。 或者有人说：“你是一个多么了不起的人啊”， 我也塑造了一个形象。 也就是说，漫不经心的状态，缺乏注意力和本身散漫的思想 制造出了意象。 明白了吗？ 我发现了一些新的东西。 对吗？ 因为——请你自己仔细地想一想—— 思想作为物质，是记忆的产物， 记忆又是经验和知识的产物， 而那些必定总是有限的、局部的。 记忆、知识，从来不可能完整。 对吗？ 永远不可能完整，所以只是局部的， 所以是散漫的。思想本身就是散漫的。 我不知道你是否明白了。
43:42 So when there is attention there is no image-making. You get it? It is not a conflict. You see the fact. When you insult me or flatter me, I am completely attentive, it doesn't mean a thing. But the moment I am not paying attention, my thought takes over which is inattentive in itself and creates the image. Got it? 所以，在全神贯注的时候就没有了意象的制造。 你明白了吗？这不是一种冲突。你看到了事实。 当你羞辱我，或是恭维我的时候， 由于我全神贯注，所以这些对我没有任何影响。 而一旦当我不注意时，我的思想就接管了， 而思想本身是漫不经心的，进而产生了意象。明白了吗？
44:19 Now the questioner says, is the ending of image-making the beginning, the essence of love and truth? Not quite. Sorry to put it, not quite! (Laughs) One must go into it very, very deeply. This may not be the time or the occasion. I was going to talk about it, the speaker was going to talk about it on Saturday and Sunday. But it doesn't matter we will go into it now briefly and we will talk about it. 现在提问者问道， 停止制造意象是不是 爱与真理的核心。并不尽然。 很抱歉这么说，并不尽然！（笑声） 你必须要非常非常深入地探究。 现在也许不是恰当的时候或场合。 我本来是要讲这个话题的， 讲话者本打算这周六和周日要讲这个的， 但是没有关系， 我们现在简要地讨论一下。
45:19 Is desire love? Go into it, sir. Is pleasure love? What do you say? I know, all our life, most of our life is directed towards pleasure, different forms of pleasure. And in that movement of pleasure, sex, etc., etc takes place and that we call love. Right? Am I saying something not true? So we are asking, is love desire, pleasure? And can there be love when there is conflict? When the mind is crippled with problems, problems of heaven, problems of meditation, problems between man and woman, problems of - you follow? When the mind is living in problems, which most minds are, can there be love? And when there is a great deal of suffering, physical as well as psychological, can there be love? 欲望是爱吗？ 探究一下，先生， 欢愉是爱吗？ 你认为呢？ 我知道，我们的整个生活，我们的大部分人生， 都是为了追求快乐，各种形式的快乐。 在那些寻找快乐的活动之中，性等等之类的事情 发生了，而我们称之为爱。 对吗？我说的不是事实吗？ 所以我们在问爱是欲望、是欢愉吗？ 当有冲突发生的时候还能有爱吗？ 当头脑被种种问题所负累， 比如有关天堂的问题，有关冥想的问题， 有关男人女人之间的种种问题所负累时——你明白吗？ 当头脑处在各种问题当中， 当然几乎所有的头脑都是如此，那么还能有爱吗？ 当身体上和精神上 遭受巨大的痛苦时，还能有爱吗？
47:36 So I am not answering this question, it is for you to find out. 所以我不会回答这个问题，由你来找到答案。
47:43 And is truth a matter of conclusion, a matter of opinion, of philosophers, of theologians, of those who believe so deeply about dogma, rituals, you know, which are all man-made. Can such a mind know what truth is? Or truth can only be when the mind is totally free of all this jumble? So philosophers and others never look at their own lives and go off into some metaphysical, psychological world which they begin to publish and become famous. 真理是不是那些深信教条和仪式的 哲学家或神学家的一个结论、一个观点？ 你知道的，这些 教条和仪式都是人为的。 这样的头脑能知道什么是真理吗？ 还是说，只有头脑完全摆脱了 所有这些混乱时，真理才会出现？ 所以说，哲学家和其他人从未审视过他们自己的生活 而遁迹于纯哲学的、心理学的世界， 在这些领域他们出版书籍并闻名于世。
49:14 So truth is something, sir, that demands extraordinary clarity of mind that has no problem whatsoever, physical or psychological. A mind that has not known even conflict. You understand what I am saying? The memory of conflict must end. You are following all this? Because we have a great many pleasant and unpleasant memories, remembrances that are delightful and remembrances that are most painful. With that mind, with that burden, we are trying to find truth. You understand? It is impossible. So a mind that is astonishingly free from all man-made psychological - you follow? - all that then truth is something that is when there is love and compassion. You cannot have love and compassion when you are in violence, when you are clinging to some attachment, when attachment becomes all important. 所以，先生，真理是某种 需要非凡明澈的头脑的东西， 这个头脑无论是生理上还是心理上都没有任何问题。 一个甚至不知道冲突为何物的头脑。 你跟得上我所说的吗？ 关于冲突的记忆必须终止。 你跟得上这些吗？ 因为我们有太多快乐和不快乐的记忆， 愉快的记忆， 极其痛苦的记忆。 用这样的头脑，带着这样的负累，我们试图寻找真理。 你明白吗？这是不可能的。 一个彻底摆脱了所有人为心理束缚的 完全自由的头脑——你明白吗？—— 此时，有了爱和慈悲， 真理就会出现。 你无法拥有爱和慈悲， 当你处于暴力之中， 当你执着于某些牵绊， 当那些牵绊变得无比重要时。
51:20 Sirs, and ladies, if we may - I am not being personal - these are not words to me - you understand? If it was not something actual I wouldn't speak. You understand what I am saying? I wouldn't be dishonest to myself. If it is not a fact I would be such a terrible hypocrite! I wouldn't ever sit anywhere on a platform or talk to anybody. You understand what I am saying? This requires tremendous integrity. 先生们，女士们，如果可以——我不是在讲个人的事情—— 这些话不是对我自己说的——你明白吗？ 如果这不是事实，我是不会说的。 你明白我所说的吗？ 我不会对自己不诚实的。 如果这不是事实， 我将会是一个多么可怕的伪君子！ 我绝对不会坐在台上向任何人宣讲的。 你明白我所说的吗？ 这需要绝对的诚实。
52:25 Fourth question: 'Would you please make a definitive statement about the non-existence of reincarnations since increasing 'scientific evidence' - in quotes - is now being accumulated to prove reincarnation as a fact. I am concerned because I see large number of people beginning to use this evidence to further strengthen a belief system they already have, which enables them to escape facing the problems of living and dying. 第四个问题：“你是否可以就‘转世并不存在’这一点 给出一个明确的说法？ 因为越来越多的‘科学证据’——加引号—— 现在正被收集用来证明转世是确有其事的。 我之所以关心是因为我发现很多人 开始利用这些证据来进一步加强 他们已有的信仰体系，这些信仰使他们 得以逃避直面生与死的问题。
53:10 Isn't it your responsibility to be clear (laughter) direct and unequivocal on this matter instead of hedging round the issue?' (Laughter) 直接而毫不含糊地澄清此事 而不是避免做出正面答复（笑声） 难道不是你的责任吗？”（笑声）
53:31 'Would you please make a definitive statement about the non-existence of reincarnations since increasing 'scientific evidence' - in quotes - is now being accumulated to prove reincarnation as a fact. I am concerned because I see large number of people beginning to use this evidence to further strengthen a belief system they already have, which enables them to escape facing the problems of living and dying. Isn't it your responsibility to be clear, direct and unequivocal on this matter instead of hedging round the issue?' “你是否可以就‘转世并不存在’这一点 给出一个确定的说法？ 因为越来越多的‘科学证据’——加引号—— 现在正被收集用来证明转世是确有其事的。 我之所以关心是因为我发现很多人 开始利用这些证据来进一步加强 他们已有的信仰体系，这些信仰使得他们 可以逃避直面生与死的问题。 难道你的责任不就是要清楚、直接、明确地 表明对此事的态度而不是避免做出正面答复吗？”
54:22 We will be very definite. (Laughter) Sir, this idea of reincarnation has existed long before Christianity. Right? The Hindus, the ancient Hindus talked about it. I must tell you a lovely story, but this is going off. And it is prevalent and almost actual in India and probably in the Asiatic world. They believe in reincarnation. Now what is it that incarnates? You understand? Not only now, incarnating now, but reincarnating. You follow? That is one point. 我的回答会非常明确的。（笑声） 先生，这种转世的观点一直存在， 早在基督教产生之前就已经存在了，对吗？ 印度教徒，古代的印度教徒谈论过这点。 我必须给你讲一个有趣的故事，但是那就跑题了。 这种观点很盛行，在印度几乎被认为是真的， 也许在亚洲地区都是如此。 人们相信转世， 而化身的又是什么呢？你明白吗？ 不仅指现在，当前的化身，也包括来世，你明白吗？ 这是第一点。
55:35 Second: this idea of reincarnation being proved scientifically as an evidence so that people can escape through that, the questioner implies, and the questioner also says I am concerned because people are escaping. Right? Are you really concerned if people are escaping? They escape through football, they escape through going to - what do you call it - basketball, yes, and may I also add escape by going to church? Another form of entertainment! And let's put all that aside being concerned what other people do, because we are concerned with the fact, with the truth of reincarnation. Right? And you want a definite answer from the speaker. 第二点：转世的概念被从科学上证明了， 这个证据，使人们得以逃避， 发问者暗指这点，发问者同时也说 我之所以关心是因为人们在逃避。 对吗？ 你真的关心人们是否在逃避吗？ 他们通过足球比赛来逃避， 他们通过——你们叫什么来着——篮球比赛来逃避， 是的，我是否还可以说他们通过去教堂来逃避？ 这是另外一种形式的娱乐！ 让我们暂且把这些都放一边， 不去关心其他人在做什么， 因为我们关心的是事实， 关心转世的真相，对吗？ 你想要讲话者给出一个明确的回复。
57:00 What is it that incarnates? To incarnate is to be born. Right? What is it at the moment, now, living now, sitting there, what is it that is living? You understand? Reincarnation means in a future life. Right? I am asking, what is it that is taking place now which is incarnation? You understand my question? Right? What is it? Go on, sir, examine it. As we are sitting here, nothing is happening - fairly simple. You are listening to some talk, or some idiocy or some rubbish, or you like what you are hearing or you don't like what you are hearing. But in our daily life, when you go away from here, what is it that is actually taking place which is the very movement of incarnation, what is it? You know it, I don't... Your struggles, your appetites, your greeds, your envies, your attachments - you follow, all that. Is that what is going to reincarnate next life? You understand what I am saying? Go on, sir, think it out. 化身的到底是什么？ 成为化身也就是指出生，对吗？ 那么现在这一刻，此刻活生生地坐在这里的是什么呢， 这个活生生的是什么？你明白吗？ 转世意味着未来的人生。对吗？ 我现在问的是，在现在这个化身上， 正在发生的是什么？你明白我的问题吗？ 对吗？是什么？继续，先生，审视一下。 我们现在就坐在这里，什么事情也没有发生——非常简单。 你正在聆听一些谈话，或是傻话， 或是些废话，也许你喜欢你所听到的， 也许你不喜欢你所听到的。 但是当你离开这里，在你的日常生活中， 那些实实在在发生的事情是什么呢？ 就在具体化身的这一刻，发生的是什么？ 你是知道的，但我不 是你的挣扎，你的欲望，你的贪婪， 你的妒忌，你的依附 ——你明白吗，所有这些。 这些就是将在来世再生的东西吗？ 你明白我所说的话吗？ 继续，先生，想想清楚。
58:51 Now those who believe in reincarnation, that is to be born with all the things which I have now, all the things which we have, to be born next life, modified perhaps, and carry on life after life. That's the idea. If you really believe in reincarnation - really - it is something that is alive, a belief - belief is never alive, but suppose it's tremendously alive - then how you are now matters much more than what you will be next. You understand what I am saying? Are you following? That is sir, it is called, in the Asiatic world, Karma. I won't go into all that. Which means action, not all the stuff, action. If I live a life now, in this period, with all my misery, confusion, anger, jealousy, hatred, violence, it may be modified, but it will go on next life. Right? This is obvious if you go into all that. So there is evidence of that. The evidence of violence, evidence of remembrance of things past - you follow all this? It may be remembrance of things past of a past life. Right? That remembrance, that accumulated 'me', this accumulation is the 'me', the I, the ego, the personality. That bundle, modified, chastened, polished a little bit, goes on next life. Right? This has evidence. Right, you are following all this? 现在那些相信转世的人， 将会带着“我”现在所有的这一切在来世出生， 带着我们现在所拥有的一切，将在下一世再生， 也许有些改善，然后一世又一世地传承下去。 就是这个意思。 如果你确实相信转世——确实相信—— 就好像它是一种有生命力的东西，一种信仰 ——当然信仰从来不是活生生的，但假设它是极具活力的—— 那么你此刻是怎样的 比你下一世会怎么样要重要得多。 你明白我在说什么吗？ 你跟上了吗？ 先生，这就是亚洲地区所说的：业。 我不会深入谈这个问题了， 它意味着行动，不是别的那些东西，而是行动。 假设在现阶段的生活中， 我经历着所有的苦恼、困惑、愤怒、嫉妒、仇恨和暴力， 这些在下一世也许会有些许改变，但仍然会继续下去。 对吗？ 如果你深入探究，这些是很明显的。 所以这些都是有根据的。 暴力的证据， 记起过去发生的事的证据，——你明白我说的这些吗？ 也许是对于上一世的一些事情的记忆， 对吗？ 这些记忆，这个积累起来的“我”， 这些积累起来的东西就是“我”，我，自我，个性。 那些交织在一起的东西，被稍作调整、净化 和打磨之后，进入到下一世继续。 对吗？这些都有根据。 对吗？你跟得上我说的这些吗？
1:01:26 So the question is not whether there is reincarnation - you follow? I am very clear on this matter, please, I am very definite. Not that there is reincarnation but what is far more important than reincarnation is the ending of this mess, this conflict, now. You follow? Then there is something totally different goes on. I wonder if you get all this! It is like my being unhappy, miserable, sorrow-ridden and I say, 'I hope next life I will be better'. Right? That hope of next life is the postponement of facing the fact now. The speaker has talked a great deal to all those believers and so on, who have lectured, written, talked about reincarnation endlessly. It is part of their game. And I say, all right sir, you believe in all that, right. If you believe, what you do now matters. Right? Right, sirs? But they are not interested in that, they are interested in the future. You follow? They don't say, look, I believe but I will alter my life so completely there is no future. You follow the point? 所以问题不是有没有转世 ——你明白吗？ 我对此事非常明确，拜托，我非常确定， 并不是说有转世， 而是远远比转世更重要的是 这些混乱、这些冲突的结束，现在就结束。 你明白吗？ 然后一些截然不同的事情就会发生了。 我不知道你有没有明白这一切！ 这就好像我不快乐，我痛苦，被悲伤折磨， 然后我说“我希望在下一世我会好一些。” 对吗？ 对于下一世的这种希望是一种对于 直面目前现实的拖延。 讲话者已经对那些信奉者讲过很多次了， 这些人无休止地宣讲、著述、 谈论转世的事情， 这是他们整套把戏的一部分。 然后我说，好吧先生，你相信所有这些，很好。 如果你相信，那么重要的就是你现在做的事。 对吗？ 对吗，先生们？ 但他们对现在并不感兴趣， 他们只对未来感兴趣。你明白吗？ 他们不说，看，我相信，但我要彻底改变我现在的生活， 不谈未来。你能明白这点吗？
1:03:26 Don't say at the end of answering this particular question you are evading it. I am not. I say the present life is all important. If you understand, go into that present life with all the turmoil of it, the complexity of it, and end it. You follow? End it, not carry on with it. Then you enter into a totally different world. To end it you must apply - you follow sir? - give attention, you must go after it, not just say, 'Well I believe in it, reincarnation I hope in the future something will take place’. I think this is clear, isn't it? I am not hedging. 不要在我回答完这个问题之后说 你在回避问题。我没有。 我说目前的生活才是最重要的。 如果你能明白，深入探索现在的生活， 探究生活中的所有混乱和纷繁复杂，并且终结它们。 你明白吗？终结它们而不是背负着它们。 然后你就会进入一个完全不同的世界。 若要终结它，你就必须运用——你明白吗先生？—— 必须付出注意力，你必须奋力以求，而不只是说 “好吧，我相信转世， 我希望未来有些事会发生。” 我认为这点很清楚了，不是吗？ 我不是在回避。
1:04:37 You might ask me, do I believe in reincarnation - right? That is the question implied too. I don't believe in anything. (Laughter) This is not an evasion. I have no belief, which doesn't mean I am an atheist, I am ungodly and all that nonsense. To have no belief. Go into it, sir, see what it means. It means that the mind is free from all entanglements of belief. 你也许会问我是否相信转世——对吗？ 提问者的问题也包含了这个疑问。 我不相信任何事。（笑声） 这不是逃避。 我没有信仰，这并不意味着我是无神论者， 我是邪恶的或任何这些胡话。 没有任何信仰。 深入进去，先生，了解它的意义。 这意味着你的头脑摆脱了所有来自信仰的纠缠。
1:05:34 Q: Would you tell us that lovely story? 问：你可以给我们讲讲那个有趣的故事吗？
1:05:40 K: Oh, you have heard of the Upanishads in India the literature of ancient India. There is a story there about death, which is reincarnation and all the rest of it. The son of a Brahman - you know what a Brahman is - the father is sacrificing, giving up. He has accumulated so much and one of the ancient customs and rules was that, after collecting, at the end of five years, you must give up everything and begin again. Would you do all that? (Laughter) So he had a son, and the son says to him 'You are giving all this away to various people, and so on to whom are you going to give me away to? 'To whom are you sending me?' The father said, 'Go away, I am not interested'. So the boy comes back several times and the father gets angry and says, 'I am going to send you to death'. Being a Brahmana he must keep his word. So he sends him to death. And on his way to death the boy goes to various teachers and says, 'Some say there is incarnation, others say there is not.' So he goes on searching and he comes to the house of death. When he arrives death is absent. That is the marvellous story if you go into it. Death is absent. He waits for three days. On the third or the fourth day death appears and apologises. He apologises because the boy was a Brahman and he says, 'I am sorry to have kept you waiting And in my regret I will offer three whatever you wish. You can be the greatest king have the greatest wealth and you can have immortality'. He promises everything. And the boy says, 'I have been to all these teachers and they all say different things. What do you say about death and what happens afterwards?' So death says, 'I wish I had pupils like you' - you understand? - 'who is not concerned about anything except that'. So he begins to talk, tell him about truth, about a state of life in which there is no time and so on and so on. That's the story. 克：哦，你听说过印度的《奥义书》吧， 那是古代印度的文学作品。 里面有一个关于死亡的故事， 也就是关于转世和诸如此类的事情。 有一个婆罗门的儿子，——你知道婆罗门是什么—— 父亲要做祭祀、要去奉献。 他积攒了很多财富， 而在那些古老的习俗和规则中有一条是， 每隔五年，对于在前五年中所积攒的一切， 你都必须全部放弃，然后重新开始。 你会这样做吗？（笑声） 他有一个儿子，儿子对他说： “你把你的一切给了各种各样的人， 你会把我送给谁呢？” “你会把我送给谁呢？” 父亲说，“走开，我不感兴趣。” 儿子又反复问了好几次， 父亲生气了，于是说： “我要把你送给死神。” 作为一个婆罗门，他必须信守承诺。 所以他把儿子送给死神。 在去往死神家的路上， 儿子探访了很多老师，说： “有人说有化身，另一些人说没有。” 他一路继续探寻，就这样来到了死神的家。 当他到达时，死神不在家。 这是一个绝妙的故事，如果你深入进去的话。 死神不在家。孩子等了三天。 第三天或者第四天的时候，死神出现了并且道歉。 他致歉，因为男孩是婆罗门，他说： “我很抱歉让你久等， 为了表达歉意，我可以满足你三个愿望。 你可以成为最伟大的国王，拥有最多的财富， 你还可以长生不老。”他可以允诺一切。 男孩子说：“我请教了所有的老师， 他们所说的都不一样。 你认为什么是死亡，死后会发生什么？” 然后死神说：“我希望能有像你这样的学生。” ——你明白吗？—— “一个只关心死亡这件事的学生。” 于是他开始讲述，教导他关于真理的事情， 以及那种没有时间的生命状态等等。这就是那个故事。
1:09:02 Fifth question: 'If you are the world, and one feels it, sees it, what does it mean to step out of the stream? Who steps out of it?' 第五个问题：“如果你就是世界，你感受到了、看到了这一点， 那么迈出这股洪流意味着什么？ 又是谁在迈出来？”
1:09:15 The questioner has probably read some books of the speaker. 'If you are the world - in quotes - and one feels it, sees it what does it mean to step out of the stream? - in quotes - Who steps out of it?' What time is it, sir? 提问者大概阅读过讲话者的某些著作。 “如果你就是世界——加引号——你感受到了、看到了这一点， 那么迈出这股洪流意味着什么？——加引号—— 又是谁在迈出来？”先生，现在几点了？
1:09:44 Q: Twenty minutes to one.

K: Good Lord! 		问：差20分钟一点。

克：天哪！
1:09:52 Sir, this is a very important question because this will be the last question, if you don't mind, I am sorry to keep you waiting so long, in spite of the tape! 先生，这是一个非常重要的问题，因为 这是最后一个问题了，如果你不介意， 很抱歉让你久等，不去管那个录像带的长度了！
1:10:10 I wonder if one realises, not as an idea, not as something romantically appealing but as an actual fact that we are the world, psychologically, not physically, colour and hair and all that stuff but psychologically, inwardly we are the world. Go to India, they have the same problems as here: suffering, loneliness, death, anxiety, sorrow - right? - as we have in the West. Wherever you go this is the common factor of humanity the factor of all human beings. So psychologically, inwardly, we are the world. Right? Is that an idea or a fact? You understand? When you hear this statement, do you make of it into an idea or actually realise it as you realise when a pin is put into your thigh, or in your arm, the actual pain of it? Not the pain of the realisation. The pain when an injection is made, that is an actuality, you have no idea about it, it is so, there is pain. Now do we actually realise this immense fact? Or is it just a lot of words. You say,' I see it, and I know it and I feel it'... But something biting! Something that is so tremendously actual. Then, the psychological fact of that, affects the mind. You understand? The mind is not your mind. Your brain is not your American little family brain. It is the human brain. And when one realises that it brings a sense of great - you know - not only responsibility, responsibility implies generally guilt in it, if you are really responsible you feel slightly guilty about it. I am using the word 'responsibility' without any sense of guilt. A sense of tremendous human responsibility for all things connected with human beings: how you educate your children, how you behave. You follow? When you actually realise this immensity - it is immense - then the particular entity as 'me' seems so insignificant. You understand? With all my little worries, you know, it becomes so shoddy. And when you see this fact, in your heart, in your mind you feel this, you cover the earth - you understand? Cover the earth: nature, ecology, and all that - you follow? You want to protect everything you can. Because you are responsible for all this. 我想知道你有没有认识到这个事实：我们就是世界， 不是作为一个理念，也不是某种有浪漫的吸引力的东西， 而是一个千真万确的事实：从心理层面上， 而不是生理层面上，肤色、头发和诸如此类的东西， 从心理上、从内在来说，我们就是世界。 如果你去印度，那里的人们有着和这里相同的问题： 痛苦，孤独，死亡，焦虑，悲伤——对吗？—— 就像我们在西方遭遇的一样。 不论你去哪里，这是人类所共有的因素， 所有人类所共有的因素。 因而在心理上，从内在来说，我们就是世界。 对吗？这是一个想法还是一个事实？ 你明白吗？ 当你听到这个论述，你是否把它变成了一个观念？ 还是确实理解了它的含义， 就像当一根针扎进你的大腿或是你的胳膊， 你感觉到一种实实在在的疼痛一样？ 那不是你意识中的疼痛。 打针时产生的疼痛是真实的， 你对这个疼痛没有观念，只有疼痛。 现在你是否实实在在地认识到了这个无限的事实？ 或者这仅仅只是一堆词语。 你说，“我看到了，我知道了，我感受到了” 但有些东西刺得很痛！ 有些事是千真万确的事实。 于是，关于它的心理上的事实，会影响你的头脑。 你明白吗？这个头脑并不是你的头脑。 你的大脑并不是你美国式的狭隘的家庭式大脑， 而是人类共有的大脑。 当一个人认识到了这些，就会带来一种巨大的 ——你知道——不仅仅是责任， 责任通常意味着负疚感， 如果你的确有责任，你就会有轻微的负罪感。 我用的“责任”这个词没有任何负罪感。 对于与人类相关的一切 所具有的极大的责任感： 你如何教育你的孩子，你如何处事，你明白吗？ 当你实实在在地认识到这种无限——那种责任的确很广大—— 那么“我”这个特定的实体就显得微不足道了。 你明白吗？ 我所有微不足道的担心，你知道，都变得不值一提。 当你在心中，在头脑里认识到这一事实， 你感受到这一点，你就蕴含了整个世界——你明白吗？ 涵盖了整个地球：自然，生态，以及所有的一切——你明白吗？ 你想要尽自己所能保护所有的一切。 因为你对一切都要负责。
1:14:55 And when there is this, the questioner asks, what does it mean to step out of this stream? And who does step out? The stream is this constant human struggle, misery - right? - of all human beings, whether communist, socialist, imperialists in China - you follow? - technicians. It is the common ground on which we all stand. And to be free of that - you follow? To be free of all that is not who steps out of it. The mind has become something totally different. You understand? Am I making this point clear? It's not 'I step out of it'. The mind is no longer in it. Sir, look, if you are attached and you end attachment, something totally different takes place, not: you are free from attachment. You understand? So there is a different quality a different tone to your whole life when one realises this enormous fact that we are humanity. Right sir? 提问者问，当有了这个， 那么跨出洪流意味着什么呢？ 又是谁在跨出呢？ 洪流指的就是人类无休止的斗争和痛苦——对吗？—— 所有的人类，无论是共产主义者、社会主义者、 中国的帝国主义者——你明白吗？——技术工作者们， 我们都站在同一个立足点上。 而要摆脱那一切——你明白吗？ 摆脱那一切并不是从中迈出来。 你的头脑已经变得截然不同。 你明白吗？我说清楚这点了吗？ 不是“我迈出来了”。 头脑不再受困其中了。 先生，你看，如果你有所依附，你终结这些依附， 一些截然不同的事就会发生， 而不是说你摆脱了依附。 你明白吗？ 当你意识到我们就是全人类这一巨大的事实。 你的整个生活就有了不同的品质、 不同的调子。 对吗，先生？
1:16:45 I think that is enough, isn't it? 我想今天就到这儿吧，好吗？