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OJ80T1 - 我们能否一起思考我们所面临的危机？
第一次公开讲话
美国，加州，欧亥
1980年5月3日



0:35 As you have been told, there will be six talks and four, what we considered discussions or dialogues, but we thought it would be better to have those four... non-talks, to have questions. I think that will be better than having a dialogue, with so many people. Dialogue means really, actually, conversation between two friends, between two people. And as that is not possible, so we thought it would be good to have questions. You can ask any question you like, the sillier or the most profound questions. 正如你们所知，我们将会进行六次讲话 和四次我们原来计划的讨论或对话， 但我们认为，讲话之外的那四次 进行问答会更好一些。 比起与这么多人一起进行对话， 我认为那样会更好。 对话实际上意味着 在两个朋友之间，在两个人之间真正地进行交谈。 而由于那是不可能的，所以我们认为 进行问答会好些。 你可以随便提问， 无论是傻一点儿的还是最为深刻的问题。
1:53 If I may suggest please don't treat these gatherings as a weekend entertainment. They are rather serious, demanding from each one of us considerable exercise of thought, capacity to investigate, to observe. And during this process, perhaps bring about a radical change in the human mind. That is what these meetings are meant to be: that we are here to observe what is happening in the world and also to observe what is happening to each one of us inwardly, psychologically, within the skin as it were. 如果我可以建议，请不要把这些聚会 当成一种周末的娱乐活动。 它们是非常严肃的，需要我们每个人 都进行大量的思考， 并拥有探索和观察的能力。 而在这个过程中，人类的头脑 也许就会产生彻底的转变。 这就是这些聚会的意图所在： 我们在这里要观察世界上正在发生的事情， 也观察我们每个人的内心， 在心理上，在肌肤之下 正在发生的事情。
3:18 So we're going to first observe what is happening right throughout the world. And to observe one must be necessarily free from any commitment. Which is going to be rather difficult for most of us are committed to something or other. To observe without any prejudice to observe without any fixed conclusion, to observe without any rationalisation, excuses, any form of belief - just to observe. Perhaps it may be rather difficult for most people because we are so bound by our own beliefs, by our own prejudices, by our own conclusions, by our own personal inclination and idiosyncrasies. It becomes almost impossible to observe freely, choicelessly. And if we can do that together during these talks and questions and answers then perhaps we can go much deeper and further. 所以我们首先来观察 全世界正在发生的事情。 而若要观察，一个人就必须 摆脱所有的信念。 那会非常困难， 因为我们多数人都信奉这个或那个。 不带任何偏见地观察， 不带有任何固定结论地观察， 不带有任何合理化、借口 以及任何形式的信仰地去观察——只是去观察。 可能这对多数人来说非常困难， 因为我们如此受制于我们的信仰、 我们的偏见、我们的结论、 我们个人的喜好和特质。 所以，自由地、无选择地观察 几乎成了不可能的事情。 而如果我们在这些谈话和问答中 能够一起这样观察， 那么也许我们就会探索得更深入、更进一步。
5:17 One can observe what is happening in the world: conflict. Wherever you go there is this terrible conflict between man and man, between nations and nations, between religions and religions, the conflict between theoreticians and theologians - Christian theologians and non-Christian theologians - the Communists, the totalitarians, and the believers, those who believe in systems, those who are bound by beliefs, those who are completely absorbed by images, religious images, Christian or Hindu or Buddhist, or your own particular image. So there is this battle going on in the world: tremendous conflict between politicians, between gurus, every human being outwardly is struggling, competing, striving to express himself, to identify himself, to become something. Probably more in this country where success is worshipped, where money, position, status becomes all important. 你能观察到世界上正在发生的事情：冲突。 不论你走到哪儿，都存在这种可怕的冲突， 在人和人之间，国与国之间， 在宗教之间， 在理论家和神学家之间的冲突 ——基督教神学家和非基督教神学家之间—— 共产主义者，极权主义者，以及各种信奉者， 那些信仰制度的人， 那些被信仰束缚的人， 那些完全被偶像、宗教偶像所占据的人， 基督徒或印度教徒或佛教徒，或者你自己特别的偶像。 所以整个世界正上演着这种斗争：巨大的冲突 存在于政治家之间、上师之间， 每个人都从外在 进行着奋斗、竞争，力争表现他自己、 获得某种身份，成为重要人物。 也许在这个成功受到崇拜， 金钱、地位、身份至关重要的国家，冲突会更多。
7:19 So there is this tremendous conflict going on: between the scientists, between the priests, between every human being on this unfortunate earth. And nobody seems to be able to resolve this conflict: the economic, the social, the political. Nobody seems to care, in the struggle, the very destruction of man, the human being. Nobody has applied their mind and their heart to resolve this problem, this everlasting conflict. Meditation becomes a conflict. To change ourselves becomes a conflict. In any of our relationships both intimate and otherwise there is still conflict. Man apparently has lived for many, many million years and has not resolved this problem, after all this time. There is something radically wrong that human beings, so-called highly civilised, with a great deal of knowledge both psychological and scientific a great deal of struggle, wars, tears, misery, man has not been able, the human beings have not been able to resolve this problem. That is the outward world, what is happening there. And nobody seems to feel it's worthwhile to forget, or drop their own particular beliefs, dogmas, political opinions, theories, conclusions, and say, come together and resolve this problem. No politicians will do it, no priest will do it, no psychologists will do it, and the scientists will not do it either. Right? 所以这种巨大的冲突正在发生着： 在科学家之间， 在牧师之间， 在这个不幸的地球上的每个人之间。 而似乎没人能够解决这种冲突： 经济的、社会的、政治的冲突。 似乎没人关心在这种斗争中 恰恰蕴含着对人、对人类的破坏。 没有人投入他们的头脑和心灵 去解决这个问题，这种持续的冲突。 冥想变成了一种冲突。 改变我们自己变成了一种冲突。 在我们所有的关系中，无论亲密与否， 都存在着冲突。 显然人类已经生存了数百万年， 经过了如此漫长的时间，却没有解决这个问题。 存在着某种根本性的错误， 因为所谓高度文明的人类 拥有大量的知识， 包括心理学的和科学的知识， 有着大量的挣扎、战争、眼泪和苦难， 人没能，人类 没能解决这个问题。 那就是外部世界中正在发生的事情。 而似乎没有人认为 值得去忘记或抛弃他们自己特定的信仰、 教条、政治观点、理论和结论， 并且说，一起来解决这个问题。 没有政治家愿意这样做， 没有牧师愿意这样做， 没有心理学家愿意这样做， 并且科学家也不愿意这样做。对吗？
10:43 Do you understand the question? See the gravity of the question? Because we are destroying each other by our very strong beliefs, ideologies, concepts, images. And apparently we are incapable of coming together and resolving this problem. That is, thinking together. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats, in this country, will drop their particular line of thinking or their personal ambitions, their craving for power, position. Because it is only when we all work together, think together, feel together the necessity, the absolute necessity, then perhaps we can resolve the problem. But none of them will do it. Because it means giving up their personal pride, vanity, position, power. 你理解这个问题吗？ 看到问题的严重性了吗？ 因为我们在相互摧毁， 用我们非常强大的信仰、意识形态、观念和偶像。 而显然我们没有能力 聚在一起来解决这个问题。 也就是不能一起思考。 在这个国家，不论是共和党还是民主党，都不可能 抛弃他们特定的思路 或者他们的个人野心，他们对权力、地位的渴望。 因为只有当我们都一起工作、一起思考， 共同感受到这种必要性，绝对的必要性， 我们才可能解决这个问题。 但他们没人愿意这么做。 因为那意味着放弃 他们个人的骄傲、虚荣、地位和权力。
12:35 And the world is preparing for war, appalling violence. If you disagree with somebody they come and shoot you. All consideration for human feeling, human dignity, human freedom, has gradually been destroyed. So that is the outward world in which we live. I don't think anybody, in his mind, can deny all this. 而世界正在为战争、为可怕的暴力做准备。 如果你不同意某人的观点，他们就来向你开枪。 所有为了人类感情、人类尊严、 人类自由的考虑都逐渐被破坏了。 这就是我们生活在其中的外部世界。 我认为没有任何人能从内心完全否认这些。
13:24 And inwardly, in our psyche, inside our skin, in our thoughts, in our feelings, we are also in conflict. Always striving to become better, to become something, to achieve success, position, inwardly. This battle is going on inside. And again we don't seem able to resolve it in spite of the psychologists, in spite of the psychotherapists, in spite of the confessions of Catholics, in spite of all the institutions, organisations that they have in this country. If you don't feel well you take a pill. If you can't stop smoking, then people will help you to smoke. If you want to talk to God, they'll help you. So gradually we are losing our own responsibility, being responsible for our own actions, for our own mind, for our own body. We are gradually, unfortunately, losing everything that matters. This again is true. We are not exaggerating. 而在我们内心，在我们的心灵中， 在我们的肌肤之内，在我们的思想中， 在我们的感情中，我们也矛盾重重。 在内心，我们总是努力变得更好， 成为一个人物，获得成功和地位。 这种斗争一直在我们的内心进行着。 而我们似乎也不能解决这个问题， 尽管这个国家有着心理学家、 心理治疗师、 天主教的忏悔、 以及所有的机构和组织， 都不能解决这个问题。 如果你感觉不舒服，你就吃药。 如果你不能戒烟，那么人们就帮助你吸烟。 如果你想与上帝交谈，他们会帮助你。 所以我们渐渐失去了我们自己的责任感， 即我们要为自己的行为、 自己的头脑和身体负起责任。 不幸的是，我们逐渐失去了所有至关重要的东西。 这也是事实。我们并没有夸大其辞。
15:49 So seeing what is happening in the world, outside, and also seeing what is happening to each one of us as human beings. To observe this. And seeing the absolute necessity of thinking together. You understand my question? Thinking together. That is, we have conflict, outwardly and inwardly. And unless we resolve this conflict humanity is going to destroy itself. 所以，看到外部世界中正在发生的事情， 也看到作为人类我们每个人身上发生的事情。 去观察这些。 并且看到一起思考的绝对必要性。 你理解我的问题吗？一起思考。 就是说，外在和内在我们都有冲突。 而如果我们不解决这种冲突， 人类就会毁掉自己。 而既然你恰好来到了这里，
16:50 And since you have been good enough to come here to listen to all this, it becomes very necessary that you and the speaker think together about this conflict. Thinking together implies that both of us put aside... if we are serious, if we know what is happening in the world, if we are responsible for all the things that human beings have done and feel the necessity of bringing about a radical change in the human psyche because society cannot be changed unless each human being changes. Seeing all that, we must think together. I do not know if you have observed how difficult it is that two people can think together. However intimate they are, man and woman, friends, to think together about something. Here is a crisis we are facing. Not merely political, economic crisis but much deeper crisis, the crisi in our consciousness, the crisis in our minds. And can we, you and the speaker, think about that together? That is, you give up your conclusion, your position, your beliefs, your personal psychological commitments and the speaker does it so that both of us meet, so as to think together whether it is possible to resolve this conflict. You understand my question? 聆听所有这一切，你和讲话者一起思考 这种冲突就变得非常必要。 一起思考意味着我们双方都抛开 如果我们是认真的，如果我们了解世界上正在发生的事情， 如果我们对人类所做的 所有这些事情负有责任， 并且感到在人类心灵之中 带来一种根本改变的必要性， 因为除非每个人都转变， 否则社会不会改变。 既然看到了这一切，那么我们就必须一起思考。 我不知道你有没有观察到 两个人一起思考 是多么困难。 不论他们多么亲密，男人和女人之间，朋友之间， 共同思考某个事情。 这里有一个我们要面对的危机。 不仅是政治的、经济的危机，而是更深层面的危机， 存在于我们意识中的危机， 存在于我们头脑中的危机。 那么我们，你和讲话者，能否一起思考这个问题？ 也就是，你放弃你的结论、 你的立场、你的信仰、 你个人心理上的信念， 而讲话者也这样做， 这样我们两人就能相遇，来一起思考 是否可能解决这种冲突。 你理解我的问题吗？ 你观察得越多
20:02 The more you observe, - as the speaker has done for the last sixty years and talked all over the world for that period - the more human beings are becoming uncontrollably mischievous, more violent, asserting their own independence each one, doing what he wants to do, driven by his own pleasure, 'doing his own thing' as it's called in this country. So each one is isolating himself and forgetting the rest of mankind. This is happening, again if you observe carefully, both in yourself and the world that each one of us is pursuing his own desires, his own wants, his own particular idiosyncrasy, the 'What pleases you, do it'. Right? ——就像讲话者在过去60年中所做的那样， 并且这期间在世界各地讲话—— 你就会越多地看到人类的 恶意伤害行为正变得无法控制， 变得更加暴力，每个人主张自己的独立， 随心所欲，被自己的快乐所驱使， 在这个国家被称为“做他自己的事情”。 所以每个人都在孤立自己， 忘记了其他人类的存在。 如果你仔细观察，这也同样发生在 你自己身上和外部世界里， 那就是我们每个人都在追求自己的欲望、 自己的需要、自己特定的癖好， “什么让你高兴就干什么”。对吗？ 那么，我们能否至少在一小时内
21:45 So can we, at least for an hour and perhaps for the rest of our life think together? There is thinking together about something. Right? We do think together when there is a crisis like a terrible war. Then we forget our own particular nonsense and the threat of something much greater as war brings us together. That's obvious. And anybody who disagrees with that is either shot, sent to prison or called a coward, conscientious objectors and so on and so on. So apparently a great crisis brings man, human beings together in the name of patriotism, in the name of God, in the name of peace, and so on. But we have no visible, actual crisis as war now, fortunately. And so each one does what he wants. And that pursuit is encouraged. So we are gradually losing our freedom. I wonder if you observe all this. 或许在我们的余生 一起思考？ 确实可以一起思考某个事情，对吗？ 当存在一场可怕的战争那样的危机时， 我们确实会一起思考。 那时我们就会忘记我们自己特定的荒唐想法， 像战争那样的更大的威胁 能将我们聚在一起。 这显而易见。 而任何持不同意见的人 要么被枪毙、投入监狱，要么被称为懦夫、 拒服兵役的人等等，等等。 所以显然一场重大的危机 能将人、将人类聚集到一起， 以爱国的名义，以上帝的名义， 以和平的名义，等等。 但幸运的是，我们目前没有像战争那样具体的实际的危机。 所以每个人都做他自己想做的事情。 并且这种追求受到了鼓励。 所以我们逐渐失去了自由。 我想知道你是否观察到了这一切。 考虑到所有这些，你和讲话者能
23:58 Considering all this, can you and the speaker think together about this crisis which we are facing? A crisis which is not economic, nor politic, nor social - they are all outward. The crisis is in each one of us. The crisis is in our consciousness, in our minds, in our hearts. And so can we observe that crisis and come together to resolve that crisis? You understand my statement? So that we can think together about the crisis. 一起思考我们面临的这种危机吗？ 危机不是经济的，不是政治的， 也不是社会的——它们都是外在的危机。 危机就在我们每个人的内心。 危机在我们的意识中， 在我们的头脑中，在我们的心中。 那么我们能不能观察这种危机 然后一起来解决这个危机？ 你理解我的表述吗？ 这样我们就可以一起来思考这种危机。 还有一种没有对象的共同思考，
25:00 There is also a thinking together without an object, that's much more complex. Do you understand? That is, we can think together about war. If there is a crisis, as war, we forget ourselves and be responsible for the whole. Right? So thinking about a crisis is comparatively easy. But thinking together without the object, thinking together without 'about something'. I wonder if you understand this. It doesn't matter, we will come to that much later. 那要更复杂。 你明白吗？ 也就是说，我们能一起思考战争的问题。 如果存在一种危机，比如战争，我们就会忘记我们自己 并且为大局负责。对吗？ 所以考虑某个危机要相对容易一些。 但一起思考却没有对象， 一起思考而没有“思考什么”。 我想知道你是否理解这点。 没关系，后面我们还会谈到这点。 那么，今天上午，
26:07 So can we, this morning, and subsequent mornings, think together? That is, can we both see the crisis in our minds, in our consciousness, in our hearts and let us talk about it together. As it is impossible to talk together with so many people, the speaker will talk about it as though he were talking to two people. You understand? That you are alone with the speaker. We are all sitting together in this lovely grove and see if we can resolve this problem. Not ultimately, not in a few days time - you understand - but in the very process of talking over together resolve the problem. That is, our brain has evolved through time. Right? That brain is not your brain or my brain, it is the brain of humanity. Right? I wonder if you see. You are following all this? But what we have done is: narrowed down that enormous capacity of the brain, evolved through time, to the narrow little brain of the 'me'. You understand? The 'me' with my little problems, the 'me' with my quarrels, jealousies, anxieties, competition, my success, 'I must do this, I must not' - you follow? This enormous capacity of the brain which has evolved through millennia upon millennia has been reduced to something tawdry, something that is, you know, rather dirty. 以及随后几天的上午，我们能一起思考吗？ 也就是，我们双方能否看到在我们的头脑中、 我们的意识中、我们心中的危机， 并一起探讨这种危机。 因为不可能与这么多人一起交谈， 讲话者会探讨这个问题， 就好像他是在进行两个人的谈话。你明白吗？ 就是说你与讲话者是单独在一起的。 我们都坐在这片美丽的树林中， 看看我们能否解决这个问题。 不是在最后，在几天之后——你明白吗？—— 而恰恰就在一起探讨的过程中 解决这个问题。 那就是，我们的大脑通过时间得到了进化。对吗？ 那个大脑不是你的大脑或我的大脑， 它是人类的大脑。 对吗？我想知道你有没有明白。你完全明白这些吗？ 但我们所做的是： 把大脑巨大的能力变窄， 经由时间得到进化， 成为那个“我”的狭隘渺小的大脑。你明白吗？ “我”以及我琐碎的问题，“我”以及我的争吵、 嫉妒、焦虑、竞争，我的成功， “我必须这样做，不能那样”—— 你明白吗？ 大脑的巨大能力 经过了数百万年的进化， 已经被缩减为某种庸俗的东西， 某种，你知道，相当肮脏的东西。 并且大脑变得习惯于
29:11 And the brain has become accustomed to protect itself against any fundamental change. I do not know if you have observed your own brains. I am not the brain specialist, not the psycho-biologist. See what is happening, sirs. That is, scientists are examining matter to find something beyond. You understand? If you have talked to any scientists or if you are a scientist yourself you are trying, if you are serious, if you are really deeply concerned, you are investigating matter to find or discover something which is the origin of all this - not God, because that is the mere invention of man, we won't go into that for the moment - they are going through matter to find something beyond. But we, as human beings, are part of that matter. You understand? But if we went through ourselves, we would go much deeper, much further, we would really come to the truth of that. You are following what I am saying? If I am not clear in my talk, please stop me. Because after all we are trying to communicate with each other, words are necessary. If the speaker uses non-technical words, non any kind of jargon, just speaking ordinary daily language, then perhaps it would be easier. 抗拒任何根本的改变，以保护自己。 我不知道你们是否观察过自己的大脑。 我不是大脑专家，不是精神生物学家。 看看正在发生的事情，先生们。 科学家正在研究物质，以发现更深远的东西。 你明白吗？如果你和科学家聊过， 或者如果你本人就是科学家， 你在尝试，如果你是认真的，如果你真正 深切地关心这个问题，你在研究物质， 以发现或揭示所有这一切的起源 ——不是上帝，因为那只是人类的发明， 我们眼下不深入讲那个—— 他们在仔细研究物质，以发现某种更为深远的事物。 但我们，作为人类，是那个物质的一部分。 你明白吗？ 而如果我们仔细审视我们自己， 我们就会更加深入地探索下去， 我们会真正认识到物质的真相。 你理解我说的吗？ 如果我说的不够清楚，请打断我。 因为我们毕竟希望能够相互交流， 所以使用语言是必要的。 如果讲话者使用非技术性的词语， 不用任何行业术语，而仅仅使用日常的语言， 那么理解起来也许会相对容易些。 所以，我们的大脑通过时间得到了进化。
31:44 So our brain has evolved through time. Our brain has its own chemical capacity to heal itself, or to resist itself. You'll find out if you go into it. To resist any change which doesn't give it security. And this brain, which is the essence of time - you understand what I'm saying, need I explain all this? I'll have to, I see. All right. Which is the essence of time, because it is the result of time. After many, many, many million years it has established certain grooves, certain way of thinking, certain activities which are familiar, certain beliefs and conclusions which gives it a sense of safety. All this has been developed through time. And we are saying, - please listen to it - we are saying unless the capacity of that brain which has been conditioned according to certain concepts, beliefs, ideas, theories, by the theologians and so on and so on, the brain cannot radically change itself. Which is obvious. You have understood? May I go on with that? 我们的大脑自身具有化学上的能力， 可以治愈自己，或者抗拒自己。 如果你深入进去你就会发现。 它抗拒任何不能给它带来安全的改变。 而这个大脑，就是时间的精髓 ——你理解我说的话吗？需要我解释这些吗？ 我必须解释，我知道。好的。 大脑是时间的精髓，因为它是时间的结果。 经过了数百万年之后， 它已经建立了特定的轨道，特定的思维方式， 特定的行为，这些熟悉的东西， 以及带给它某种安全感的特定的信仰和结论。 所有这些都通过时间得以产生。 而我们说，——请听好—— 我们说，除非那个大脑有能力 ——这个大脑被 神学家等人的 某些概念、信仰、观点和理论所制约， 否则大脑不能从根本上改变自己。 这很明显。 你明白了吗？我可以继续讲下去吗？ 而思考是
34:10 And thinking is part of this traditional time honoured process of the brain. Right? So when the speaker said let us talk over together, as two people - though there are many people here - as two people concerned with that question of ending conflict, ending conflict not gradually which is the process of the brain conditioned to time... You are following all this? We are saying, unless that chain is broken there cannot possibly be a fundamental change in human nature. If you have observed your own brain in operation, not from books - they may help but essentially the books, the writers about the brain and the investigators and so on, they don't investigate their own brain. They investigate the brain. I don't know if you are following all this? We, if you are serious, we are investigating our own brain not the brain according to some psychologists, neurologists, psychobiologists and so on and so on. And then if you examine it according to the authority, it is the authority you are examining, not your brain. Vous avez compris? You have understood? Is this clear? Please, this is very important because we are all so learned, we have read so much or been told so much, that we depend on others to tell us what to do: how to feed your baby, how to walk, how to run - you follow? - they tell you everything. And we, unfortunate human beings comply, slightly resist, but conform. And as the speaker doesn't read any of these books but has talked a great deal to other professors, psychologists and scientists and has observed the activity of his own brain which is: the brain, the activity of the brain is the reactions, the responses, the sensory response, the shock - you follow - all that, to observe. Not second-hand, but actually. Then you have an extraordinary vitality, not to do mischief, an extraordinary vitality of the brain. 这种传统的以时间为荣的大脑运作过程的一部分。对吗？ 所以，当讲话者说 让我们一起探讨，就像两个人 ——尽管这儿有很多人——就像 关心着结束冲突这个问题的两个人一样， 不是逐渐地结束冲突， 那是被时间制约的大脑的运作过程 你完全理解这些吗？ 我们说，除非那个链条被打破， 否则不可能存在 人类本性的根本转变。 如果你观察过你自己大脑的运作过程， 不是按照书本——书本可能会有所帮助，但实际上那些书、 写书的作者以及研究者等等， 他们并没有探究他们自己的大脑。 他们研究大脑。 我想知道你是不是理解了所有这些？ 我们，如果你是认真的， 我们要探究自己的大脑， 而不是参考某些心理学家、 神经学家、精神生物学家等等所描述的那个大脑。 如果你依照权威去检验， 那么你检验的是那个权威，而不是你的大脑。 你明白吗？（法语）你理解了吗？ 这点清楚了吗？拜托，这点很重要， 因为我们都如此博学，我们读过那么多东西， 或者别人告诉了我们那么多，以致于我们依赖别人 来告诉我们做什么：怎样喂养你的孩子， 怎样走路，怎样跑步——你明白吗？—— 他们告诉你一切。 而我们，不幸的人类 遵从，略微抵制，但遵循这些。 而因为讲话者没有读过那些书中的任何一本， 但与另外的教授、心理学家、科学家 进行了大量的交谈， 并且观察了他自己大脑的活动， 那就是：大脑，大脑的活动是反应， 是回应、感官反应、 冲击——你理解吗——去观察那一切。 不接受二手的，而是实际去观察。 那么你就会有一种不寻常的活力，不是去伤害， 而是大脑拥有一种异乎寻常的活力。 那么，我们要说的是，
38:14 So what we are saying is, as the brain has evolved in time and it can only think in terms of time - that the crisis 'will be resolved' - the moment you use the words 'will be resolved' you are already thinking in terms of time. I don't know if you follow this. Right? Sir, you and I will talk together. 因为大脑已经通过时间得到了进化， 并且它只能按照时间去思考 ——危机“将被解决”—— 一旦你使用"将被解决"这样的词语， 你已经在按照时间思考了。 我不知道你有没有明白这点。 对吗？ 先生，你和我一起来讨论。 我们说通过时间培养起来的
38:57 We are saying this activity of the brain which has been cultivated through time can be broken when you face the crisis and be free of the idea the concept, the desire: 'we will change it eventually'. You follow this point? 大脑的这种活动能被打破， 那就是当你面对危机并摆脱了 “我们最终将会改变它”这种想法、概念和愿望的时候。 你理解这点吗？ 所以，在一起讨论冲突这个问题的过程中，
39:31 So in talking over together this question of conflict we are asking, can the conflict end immediately? The moment it doesn't - when you have not the urgency of ending it immediately, you enter time. You have understood this? So we are now thinking together about the conflict and not thinking in terms of 'it'll end eventually, gradually'. You get it? Please understand this. So the very urgency of the crisis ends time. I wonder if you see this. You have broken the pattern of the brain. Are you doing this as we are talking or you are just listening to some kind of talk as an idea? You understand? 我们要问，这种冲突能否立即终止？ 一旦它没有马上终止——当你没有 立即终止它的紧迫性的时候，你就引入了时间。 你理解这点了吗？ 那么我们现在一起来思考这个冲突， 而不是以“它将最终地、逐渐地终结”这样的方式来思考。 你明白吗？请务必理解这点。 所以正是危机的紧迫性终止了时间。 我想知道你是否明白这点。 你已经打破了大脑的那种模式。 当我们探讨的时候，你在这样做吗？或者你只不过 把这些谈话当做一种观念在听？你明白吗？ 那么再稍等一下，我来这样表述：
41:05 Now just a minute, I'll put it this way: is the crisis in your mind, in your heart, in your behaviour, is it an idea or an actuality? You understand my question? Is it a concept which has been presented to you, verbally, and you accept that concept, and so it becomes an idea? But whereas in the very description of it is the fact of your own observation. I wonder if you see this. Which is it that is going on between us? Is it an idea, a concept, the concept of time the concept that it can be broken? And so then you will ask, how is it to be achieved which is again a process admitting time. I wonder if you see all this. 在你的头脑中、在你心中、在你行为中的这种危机 是一种观念还是一种现实？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 它是不是一个通过语言告诉你的概念， 而你接受了那个概念， 然后它变成了一个想法？ 抑或正相反：恰恰在对它的描述中， 就有你自己观察到的事实。 我想知道你有没有看到这点。 这就是正在我们之间发生的事情吗？ 它是不是一个想法、一个概念，关于时间的概念， “大脑的模式能被打破”这样一个概念？ 然后你会问怎样才能实现这一点， 而这依旧是一个容许时间存在的过程。 我想知道你有没有完全理解这些。 你知道，举例来说
42:22 You know, take for example - the speaker personally doesn't like taking examples, they are a rather easy way out. We human beings are violent which has been demonstrated throughout the world. That is obvious. Violence derived genetically from the ancient times, from the animal and so on and so on. So we are by nature, by our behaviour, being very, very self-centred, violent. And we say that violence cannot be ended immediately therefore we must pursue non-violence. You are following this? The non-violence is an idea, it is not a fact. I wonder if you see this. What is fact, I mean by fact what is actually happening, which is violence. You may not be violent now, sitting under the trees in nice weather and so on, but the fact is that human beings, you are violent. And our brain which has evolved through time, chemically protecting itself and so on and so on, conditioned to that, says, 'I will eventually get rid of it'. So the theorists, the theologians, the priests, all these people, because we have also said, 'we will get rid of it eventually'. You follow? Whereas if you are only dealing with fact, not with idea, then you can do something immediately. You follow? You know the word 'idea' in Greek, means to observe. You follow? Merely to observe. Not, through observation, make an abstraction of what has been observed. You understand? I wonder if you are following all this. You see what we generally do is: when we observe something immediately we make an abstraction of it into an idea and then try to carry out that idea. So it becomes extremely difficult to carry out an idea, so there is conflict. Whereas if one is only observing what is actually happening then you can deal with it, not in the context of time but in the necessity of moving from there. I wonder if you follow all this? Tant pis, if you don't follow, sir, let's go on! At least some of us will. ——讲话者个人并不喜欢举例， 那是一种相当容易的应付的办法。 我们人类是暴力的， 这在全世界都得到了证明。 显然如此。 暴力从基因上源自远古时代， 源于动物等等，等等。 所以我们在天性上、在行为上， 非常非常以自我为中心、非常暴力。 而我们说暴力不可能马上被终止， 所以我们必须追求非暴力。 你理解这点吗？ 非暴力是一个想法，不是事实。 我想知道你有没有看到这点。 事实是——我说的事实 是指实际发生的事情——事实是暴力， 你可能现在并不暴力， 在怡人的天气里坐在树下，如此等等， 但事实上人类、你是暴力的。 并且我们通过时间进化了的大脑 会在化学层面上保护它自己等等，等等， 受到了那些制约，说，“我将最终摆脱它”。 那些理论家、那些神学家、那些牧师，所有这些人，都是如此， 因为我们也这样说过，“我们将最终摆脱它”。 你明白吗？ 然而，如果你只是跟事实打交道，而不是想法， 那么你马上就会有所作为。你明白吗？ 你知道，希腊语中“想法”这个词意味着观察。 你明白吗？ 只是去观察，而不是通过观察 将观察到的事物抽象化。 你明白吗？我想知道你有没有完全理解这些。 你看我们通常的做法是：当我们观察某个东西， 我们立刻把它抽象成一个想法， 然后努力去实现这个想法。 而实现某个想法变得极端困难， 于是就有了冲突。 然而如果你仅仅观察实际发生的事情， 那么你就能应对它，不是在时间的范畴内， 而是认识到有必要脱离那个领域。 我想知道你是不是理解所有这些？ 如果你不理解，那就太糟了，先生，那我们继续吧！ 至少我们中有些人会理解。 所以我们是在一起思考这种冲突的终止。
46:30 So together we are thinking about the ending of this conflict. Not day after tomorrow, or next week, but immediately. Sorry. Sorry sir. Sorry. That's his boss. He's the publisher I was listening to last night. So if we understand this, then let's think together. What is the problem? Because in understanding the problem the answer is in the problem, not outside the problem. You understand this? Whereas we say, it is outside the problem, the answer will somehow lie somewhere else, not in the problem itself. Right? Can we go together, please? 不是后天或者下周，而是马上终止。 抱歉。 抱歉，先生。 抱歉。 那是他的老板。 他是出版商，昨晚我听过他讲话。 如果我们理解了这点，那么让我们一起来思考。 问题是什么？ 因为在理解问题的过程中， 答案就在问题之中，而不是在问题之外。 你理解这点吗？ 然而我们说，答案在问题之外， 答案或多或少在另外的什么地方， 而不在问题本身之中。对吗？ 拜托，我们能一起深入吗？ 那么，问题是什么？
48:17 So what is the problem? The problem apparently is, society can only be changed if human beings who have created it change themselves. That is the real problem, the real core of the problem. Right? Society, which is corrupt, which is immoral, which is ugly, there is injustice, cruelty, the rich and the poor, you follow, all that. The society, which human beings have created - not God, not some outside agency - but human beings have created it, created the division, the national division, religious divisions, economic divisions, and so on and so on, we, humans, humanity has created it. Unless humanity - of which we are - changes fundamentally you cannot bring about a society which is healthy, sane, rational. Right? The materialists won't accept this. They say, change the environment, then man changes. That is the totalitarian attitude. That is their whole historical, experimental approach: change society, make laws, rules, control, control thought, don't let them be free, change that and then man, who is also purely material, will change. Right? What we are saying is totally different: which is, humanity has created society: unless humanity - each one, human beings - change, society cannot change. Which is being proved in the totalitarian world. The more intelligent you are in those states the more you revolt against all that. And so you are either sent to concentration camps or expelled from the country. 问题显然是，只有创造社会的人类 改变了他们自己，社会才能改变。 那是真正的问题，问题真正的核心。 对吗？ 腐败、不道德、丑恶的社会， 存在着不公正、残酷， 富人和穷人，你知道，诸如此类。 人类所创造的社会 ——不是上帝，不是什么外在因素—— 而是人类创造了它， 制造了分裂，国家的分裂、宗教的分裂、 经济的分裂，等等，等等， 我们，人，人类创造了它。 除非人类——也就是我们—— 从根本上改变，否则你不可能带来 一个健康、清明、理智的社会。对吗？ 唯物主义者不会同意这点。 他们说，改变环境， 然后人就会改变。 那是极权主义的态度。 那是他们整个历史性、实验性的方法： 改变社会，制订法律、规则，实施控制， 控制思想，限制思想自由， 改变了那些，然后完全物质的人也会改变。 对吗？ 我们说的完全不同： 那就是，人类创造了社会：除非人类 ——每个人，人类——改变，否则社会不会改变。 在极权主义世界中这一点正在得到证明。 在那些国家你越有智慧， 你就越会反抗那一切。 所以你要么被投入集中营， 要么被驱逐出境。 所以那就是危机。
51:36 So the crisis is that. Now, how does each one of us - please listen to this for a few minutes - how does each one of us approach this crisis? You understand? Approach this fact that human beings have created society, society cannot change by itself because society is part of human beings, unless human beings fundamentally change society cannot change. That is the real core of our problem. And how do you come to that? You understand? Is it a mental, rational conclusion, an abstraction that you have, after observing, come to? Or this is a fact. You see the difference? Is it a concept, an idea, or a fact? For you. If it is a concept, then see what happens. Concept is merely a conclusion derived, cleverly or unintelligently, rationally or irrationally, a conclusion that society cannot be changed, human beings cannot be changed, so carry on amicably. There are those people who are saying this: human beings are so conditioned, you cannot change that conditioning but make it a little better. You know the group, you know the tendency, all that. 那么，我们每个人怎样 ——请认真听几分钟—— 我们每个人怎样应对这个危机？ 你明白吗？ 应对这个事实，即是人类创造了社会， 社会不能自己发生改变， 因为社会是人类的一部分， 除非人类从根本上改变， 否则社会无法改变。 这是我们的问题真正的核心所在。 而你是怎样得出那个结论的？你理解这个问题吗？ 它是不是一个智力上的、理性的结论， 一个你观察后得出的抽象概念？ 抑或这是一个事实。你明白其中的区别吗？ 它是一个概念、一个想法，还是一个事实呢？ 对你来说。如果它是一个观念，那么看看会发生什么。 观念只是一个推导出来的结论， 无论是聪明地或不明智地，理智或不理智地推导出的， 有个结论认为社会无法改变， 人类无法改变，所以就这样一团和气地继续下去。 有那么一些人，他们说： 人类被严重地制约着， 你无法改变那种制约，而只能对它稍加改善。 你知道那个群体，你知道那种倾向，所有那些。 所以我们要彼此问一问，它是一个想法，
53:43 So we are asking each other, is it an idea, because we have been told, or it's a fact for yourself? You see the difference? When it is a fact for yourself, not given by another, then you have to deal with it. That is, when you have pain you deal with it. When you have toothache you do something immediately. But if toothache is an idea then you say, 'Well, perhaps I'll postpone it'. No, don't laugh, sir, see the rationality of it. 是因为有人告诉了我们呢，还是它对你来说是一个事实？ 你明白其中的区别吗？ 当它对你来说是事实，不是别人给你的想法， 那么你就不得不应对它。 换句话说，当你疼痛的时候，你会应对它。 当你牙疼的时候，你会马上采取行动。 但如果牙疼是一个想法， 那么你就会说，“好吧，也许我可以推迟这件事情”。 不，不要笑，先生，看看这其中的合理性。 这让人想起另外一个观点：
54:45 That brings up another point: scientists think human beings are rational. But they are not. You understand? The fact is human beings are irrational. But there is a concept that human beings are rational. And we live according to that concept that we are. So we are never rational. I don't know if you follow this. 科学家认为人类是理智的。 但他们并非如此。 你明白吗？ 事实上人类是不理智的。 但有一个观念认为人类是理智的。 而我们按照那个认为我们是理智的观念去生活。 所以我们从来都不理智。我不知道你是不是明白这点。 几点了，先生？
55:34 What time is it, sir? We will continue every day, for the next two weeks, about this question. If it is a fact, then how do you conceive... No. How do you look at that fact? You understand? How do you come to the fact? So the approach to the fact matters. Is your approach rational, or irrational? Is your approach pessimistic or optimistic? Is your approach based on hope, desire and so on? If it is, your approach has already been dictated therefore you are not free to observe the fact. You're following all this? You see, sir, this is enormously difficult. This isn't a thing you play around with. This is concerned with your life, not somebody else's theories, however clever, however ancient, however so-called religious. It's your life. And how do you approach your life? You understand my question? Is your approach conditioned according to your education? Examine it sirs, as we go along. According to your social position? According to your immediate demand? Or your approach is based on you believe in Jesus, or Buddha, or somebody? That is, is your approach to the problem... imaginary? You understand? Because we live with images. I don't want to complicate this thing. Our whole life is formed through images. All our religions are images either made by the hand or by the mind but they are images, which we then worship. And that we consider marvellously religious, which is idiotic. 接下来的两个星期， 我们每天都会继续探讨这个问题。 如果那是事实，那么你怎么认为……不。 你怎样看待那个事实？你明白吗？ 你怎样面对那个事实？ 所以，面对那个事实的方式至关重要。 你的方式是理智的还是不理智的呢？ 你的方式是悲观的还是乐观的呢？ 你的方式是基于希望、欲望等等之上的吗？ 如果是的话，你的方式就已经受到了摆布， 所以你不能自由地观察那个事实。 你理解所有这些吗？ 你看，先生，这极其困难。 这不是一个你闹着玩的事情。 这关系到你的生活，不是别的什么人的理论， 不论那些理论多么聪明、多么古老，多么所谓的具有宗教性。 那是你的生活。 而你怎样应对你的生活？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你的应对方式是不是被你所受的教育制约了？ 在我们探讨的过程中审视一下这个问题，先生。 是不是受制于你的社会地位呢？ 是不是受制于你眼下的需求呢？ 或者你的应对方式是不是基于 你对耶稣、佛陀或某人的信仰？ 换句话说，你处理问题的方法是……想象中的吗？ 你明白吗？ 因为我们跟意象生活在一起。 我不想把这个事情弄复杂。 我们的整个生活都是通过意象形成的。 我们所有的宗教都是意象， 无论是用手建造的，还是用头脑建造的， 但它们都是意象，然后我们崇拜它们。 而我们认为那些东西极具宗教性，但实际上很白痴。 那么，我们的应对方式摆脱了我们的结论、
59:08 So is our approach free from our conclusions, from our experience, from our knowledge? If it is from our experience, from our knowledge you have already answered the problem which will be according to time - you're following all this? - which will be according to your conditioning. But if you come to it freely, to observe, then there is immediate action. 我们的经验、我们的知识吗？ 如果它来自于我们的经验、我们的知识， 你就已经回答了那个问题， 而这个回答是根据时间作出的——你完全理解这些吗？—— 是根据你的制约作出的。 但是如果你自由地面对问题，进行观察， 那么就会有即时的行动。 我认为今天讲得差不多了，不是吗？
59:59 I think that's enough for today, isn't it? Because to spend an hour with this attention probably you are not used to it. You get tired, your minds are wandering off, you are not fully centred. So after an hour let's stop and continue Tuesday and Thursday and Saturday, oh, tomorrow, of course. Tomorrow we will continue with this, may we? 因为在这种关注的状态下度过一个小时 可能你还不太习惯。 你累了，你的头脑要开小差了， 你没有完全集中注意力。 所以我们讲了一个小时，现在就此打住， 然后星期二、星期四和星期六再继续， 噢，明天，当然。 明天我们再继续这个话题，好吗？