Krishnamurti Subtitles home


OJ80T3 - 从心理上终结某事需要时间吗?
第三次公开讲话
美国,加州,欧亥
1980年5月10日



0:34 May we continue where we left off last Sunday. Perhaps some of you were not here so we have to go over again a little bit briefly, what we were saying. 让我们从上个星期天停下的地方接着谈。 可能你们之中有些人上次没来, 所以我们必须简要回顾一下 我们上次谈的内容。
1:08 We have been saying for many years that society cannot possibly be changed: the society which is in great turmoil, which is corrupt, where there is war, a great deal of struggle between human beings, that society cannot possibly be changed unless human beings who have created it bring about a radical change in themselves. This is what we've said and we must explain a little more about it. 我们已经谈了很多年 社会不可能被改变这件事: 这个社会极其混乱、 腐败、上演着战争, 人与人之间存在着无尽的斗争, 这样的社会不可能得到改变, 除非建立它的人类 自身能够发生彻底的转变。 这就是我们说过的, 而我们必须再稍微解释一下这点。
2:15 But please, this is not a gathering for entertainment. This is not a meeting of people together to be mentally, intellectually or romantically, stimulated. We are here, I hope, to face this problem which is this enormous confusion, mischief, great danger, which human beings are facing. To go into it very deeply we must think together about the problem. 但是请大家注意,这不是 一次为了消遣而进行的聚会。 这不是一场大家聚在一起 为了得到精神上、智力上或浪漫主义刺激的聚会。 我希望,我们在这儿,能面对这个问题, 人类正面临的这些 巨大的混乱、伤害和危险。 要想非常深入地探究,我们就必须共同来思考 这个问题。
3:20 We cannot possibly think together if we have contradictory opinions. If we are anchored in our own particular conclusion or belief. Or hold on to some fantastic or romantic experience. Because this problem faces all mankind. Wherever you go, if you have travelled, not as a tourist but wherever you go you'll find the same problem: man against man, confusion, fear, lack of integrity. And the scientist, the psychologists somehow don't seem to be able to resolve this problem, nor the politicians, nor the institutions whether they are religious or political or social. 我们不可能一起思考, 如果我们抱持着互相矛盾的观点, 如果我们固守着各自独特的结论或信仰, 或者紧抓着一些奇异或浪漫的经历不放。 因为这是整个人类面临的问题。 无论你走到哪里,如果你曾经旅行过,不是作为一个观光客, 而是无论你走到哪儿,你都会发现同样的问题: 人们互相为敌、困惑、恐惧以及缺乏正直。 而科学家们、心理学家们 不知怎么回事好像都无法解决这个问题, 政治家们和各种 宗教、政治、社会机构也都无济于事。
5:02 So it behoves us, if we are at all serious and concerned that we, human beings who have created that society and we are responsible for all the things that are happening in the world, the appalling cruelty, to animals, to human beings, the religious tortures in the past, and so on. We have created them. And to understand that, not merely intellectually but to really face it. 所以,如果我们真正认真并且心怀关切, 那么我们,建立了这个社会的人类 理所应当要对 世界上正在发生的所有事情负责—— 那些对待动物和人类的令人震惊的残酷行为, 过去的那些宗教酷刑,等等。 我们制造了它们。 为了能够理解那些,不仅仅是从智力上, 而是真正地面对它,
6:03 I hope we can think together about the problem. That is, if one has a particular point of view and another holds his opinion then it's impossible to think together. If you are prejudiced and the speaker has a particular point of view then we cannot possibly think together. Thinking together does not mean agreeing but rather, together, human beings, as two human beings, not Americans and Hindus and all that business but two human beings who are confronted with this problem: the problem that human beings have created, this society which is so terrifying and, as human beings, we have to radically change ourselves. And is that possible? Is it possible for a human mind which has evolved through time, many millennia upon millennia, passed through great many experiences, sufferings, many conflicting incidents, wars, this mind of the human being, this brain - which is not yours or mine but the brain that has evolved, five, ten million years, it's the human brain, not a particular brain. But we have reduced it as a particular brain, mine and yours but if you examine it very carefully one will find this brain which has evolved through time, is the brain of mankind. Please don't reject it or accept it, examine it, look at it. Because this brain of ours suffers, is anxious, lonely, frightened, pursuing constant pleasure. And this brain has lived in a particular pattern and this pattern is repeated over and over and over again all over the world, whether they are Buddhists, Hindus, Communists Catholics or whatever, what you will. 我希望我们能一起思考这个问题。 就是说,如果一个人有一个独特的观点, 而另一个人也坚持自己的主张, 那么一起思考就不可能了。 如果你心怀偏见, 而讲话者也持有一个独特的见解, 那么我们就不可能一起思考。 一起思考不意味着赞同, 而是一起, 作为两个人, 不是作为美国人和印度人以及诸如此类的事情, 而是两个 正在面临这个问题的人: 这个问题是由人类制造的, 这个社会如此骇人听闻, 所以,作为人类, 我们必须彻底改变自己。 那么这是否可能呢? 对于人类的头脑来说那可能吗? 这个大脑经历了 数百万年时间的进化, 拥有丰富的经历, 历经苦难、无数冲突、战争, 这个人类的心智, 这个大脑——那不是你的或者我的大脑, 而是进化了五百万年、一千万年的大脑, 它是人类的大脑,不是一个特定的大脑。 但是我们已经把它缩减为一个特定的大脑,我的和你的, 但如果你非常仔细地审视它,就会发现这个 通过时间进化了的大脑是人类的大脑。 请不要拒绝或者接受这个说法,检查它,看着它。 因为我们的大脑遭受痛苦,它焦虑、孤独、 害怕,一直追求永恒的快乐。 这个大脑一直活在一个特定的模式中, 而这个模式在全世界范围内 一而再再而三地重复着, 不论他们是佛教徒、印度教徒、共产主义者、 天主教徒或者你能想到的任何人。
9:59 So it is not your brain or a particular individual's brain, it's the brain of mankind! And that brain has functioned in various patterns, pattern of fear, pattern of pleasure, and reward or punishment. That's the pattern, through all these millennia, it has developed. And is it possible to bring about not another series of pleasurable patterns or patterns of fear, beliefs and so on, but to go beyond all these patterns otherwise there is no radical change there is no psychological revolution. I think this is important to understand. 所以它不是你的大脑 或者某个特定个人的大脑,它是人类的大脑! 并且那个大脑以各种模式运转着, 恐惧的模式、快乐的模式,和赏罚的模式。 这些模式经历了数百万年的发展。 那么我们有没有可能不建立 另一系列的快乐模式 或恐惧模式、信仰等等, 而是超越所有这些模式, 否则我们就不会有彻底的改变, 不会有心理上的革命。 我认为理解这点很重要。
11:33 Again, please, you're not listening to a talk by some strange person. We are together thinking, enquiring into the problem. So you're not, if you will kindly follow it, you're not accepting any authority, we're not doing any propaganda or trying to convince you of anything. But seeing the problem, which is very complex, and looking at that problem, facing that problem and enquiring together into that problem. The enquiry into the problem is not analysis: the cause, effect. Enquiry is not... Enquiry is not argument, opposing one opinion against another opinion, one prejudice against another. Enquiry implies observation. Where there is observation there is no analysis. When you observe, that is when you observe without fear, without your own particular prejudice, or idiosyncrasy, then in that observation analysis ends. I hope we are doing this together. 请允许我再说一次, 你并不是在听某个奇怪的人所作的讲话。 我们是在一起思考、探究这个问题。 所以,如果你愿意倾听的话, 你并不是要接受任何权威, 我们也不是在做任何宣传 或者试图让你相信任何东西。 而是看到这个非常复杂的问题, 看着它,面对它, 并且一起来深入探究它。 深入探究问题并不是分析: 起因、结果。 探究不是...... 探究不是论证, 反对某个看法,反对另一个观点, 一种偏见反对另外一种偏见。 探究意味着观察。 哪里有观察,那里就不存在分析。 当你观察的时候,也就是当你不带有恐惧、 不带着你自己特定的偏见或者习性去观察, 那么在那样的观察中分析就终止了。 我希望我们正在一起这样做。
14:14 That is, when you observe a tree, that thing, the very observation is through words: the moment you see it, you call it a tree. Please do this as we are talking. To look at that thing without the word, which is to observe actually what it is. That's fairly clear. But to do that psychologically is much more complex. To observe without any motive, to observe what actually is going on: your fear, your anxiety, your loneliness, one's own sense of lacking, depression, whatever is actually going on. To observe it without analysis, without judging, without evaluating, just to observe. I hope this is becoming clear. Can we do this, together? Our minds have been trained to analyse, to see the cause and discover the effect and in the very process of discovering the effect the effect becomes the cause. It is a chain. You're following all this? 换句话说,当你观察一颗树、观察那个事物的时候, 那个观察本身是通过语言进行的: 当你看到它的时候,你称它为一棵树。 当我们探讨的时候,请这样做。 去看那个事物而不带有语言, 也就是观察它实际的样子。 这点相当清楚。 然而,在心理上那样做就复杂多了。 不带有任何动机地观察, 观察实际上正在发生的事情: 你的恐惧,你的焦虑,你的孤独, 一个人自己的贫乏感、沮丧感, 实际上发生着的任何事情。 观察它而没有分析、判断、 评价,只是去观察。 我希望这点已经清楚了。 我们能一起这样做吗? 我们的大脑已经被训练有素地去分析, 去查看起因并发现结果, 而正是在发现结果的这个过程中, 结果变成了原因。这是一个链条。 你完全理解这些吗?
16:24 I think it's one of our calamities that we have during these... probably hundred years, we have Communism and psychoanalysis, because they now prevent your being actually responsible for yourself. If there is any trouble, turmoil in yourself, you go to an analyst or some institution or some group, and so on. You, as a human being, you are now becoming not free, but depending on others. Depending on the church, depending on politics, depending on your gurus, or whatever it is, you are always depending on somebody to change, to bring about order in yourself. So we are nearly losing our freedom to be responsible for ourselves. That's why Communism makes one irresponsible. Like psychoanalysis: it reduces you or makes you depend on somebody to solve your problem. 我认为我们的灾难之一是 我们这些年以来......可能上百年来, 我们有了共产主义和精神分析, 因为现在它们妨碍你 对自己真正地负起责任。 如果你自己有任何麻烦和混乱,你会去找一名分析师、 某个社会机构或者团体等等。 你,作为一个人,你现在正 变得不自由,变得依赖他人。 你依赖教会、依赖政治、 依赖你的古鲁,或无论什么。 你总是依赖某人使自己发生改变, 给你自身带来秩序。 所以我们几乎失去了 对我们自己负责的自由。 这就是为什么共产主义使人变得不负责任的原因。 就像心理分析:它把你变得狭隘,或者 使你依赖别人去解决你自己的问题。 所以我们要说的是,
18:22 So what we're saying is that as human beings we are responsible for the disorder that exists in the world. And this disorder is created by thought. That's where we ended up last week, last Sunday. We said that thought has created not only the marvellous architecture, the marvellous cathedrals and the temples, and the mosques, it has created the technological world, beneficial and destructive, war and the instruments of war. 作为人类 我们要对世界上存在的混乱负责。 而这个混乱是由思想制造的。 上个星期天,我们就是谈到这儿的。 我们说过思想不仅仅建造了 不可思议的建筑、 大教堂、庙宇和清真寺, 它也建立了科技世界, 有益的与有害的科技, 还有战争和战争武器。 思想制造了,
19:46 Thought has created, has brought about the division between human beings: nationalistic, class, political, economic, spiritual, religious divisions. If you examine it closely, you will see that's a fact. Thought has been responsible for all this. Not only what is inside the temples, the churches but also what is outside in the world. So unless we understand very deeply the nature of thought there is no possibility of bringing about a radical change. Right? Are we together in this, so far? Thought has created the technological world. Right? Thought also has created the images: about oneself, about the various national divisions, thought has created the Arab, the Jew, the Hindu, the Muslim, and so on and so on. Thought has also created the marvellous architecture and the churches, the cathedrals and the images in all those cathedrals, temples and mosques. There are no images in the Islamic world but they have the scripture, the writing which is also a form of image. 造成了人与人之间的分裂: 国家主义的、阶级的、政治的、经济的、 精神的、宗教的分裂。 如果你仔细地审视它,你会看到那是事实。 思想要对所有这些负责, 不只是寺庙、教堂里的东西, 还有外在世界上正在发生的事情。 所以,除非我们非常深入地理解思想的本质, 否则不可能产生彻底的转变。 对吗? 到目前为止,我们在这点上是一致的吗? 思想创造了科技世界。 对吗? 思想也制造了意象:有关人自己的, 有关各种国家分裂的, 思想制造了阿拉伯人、犹太人、 印度教徒、穆斯林等等,等等。 思想也建造了令人惊叹的建筑 和基督教堂、天主教堂 以及所有那些教堂、庙宇和清真寺中的偶像。 伊斯兰教中没有偶像, 但是他们有经文、典籍, 那也是一种形式的偶像。 可是思想并没有创造大自然:
22:06 But thought has not created nature: the tree, the river, the skies, the stars, those lovely mountains, the birds. But thought is using them, destroying them, destroying the earth, polluting the air and so on. So if we want to resolve this problem of conflict, struggle, turmoil, confusion in the human mind and so in the human society, we must go into this question of what is thinking. Right? Are we meeting together? Please, shall we? No, Sir, not only you but all of us together. 树木、河流、天空、星辰、 那些美丽的山峰、鸟儿。 但思想在利用它们,摧毁它们, 破坏地球,污染空气等等。 因此,如果我们想要解决冲突、斗争、 混乱、困惑这些人类头脑及人类社会中的问题, 我们就必须探究什么是思考这个问题,对吗? 我们相遇在一起了吗?拜托,让我们在一起,好吗? 不,先生,不仅是你,而是所有在座的人一起。 我们在问:什么是思想,什么是思考?
23:08 We are asking: what is thought, what is thinking? Why has thought made all this? Why has thought brought about marvellous medicine and also why thought creates wars and destroys human beings? Why has thought made God and why has thought made the image of God? Thought has made the image of God. And also thought has brought such enormous conflict between human beings, between you and your intimate friend, intimate person, wife, husband, boy and so on and so on. Are you interested in all this? Or have you come here to enjoy a rather cool morning, sitting under the trees? If you are really interested - not in what is being said but rather interested to find out. Interested to find out for yourself why has thought done this, what is the nature of thought. That means, together we are looking into it. That means you must exercise your observation, you must go into it as alertly, keenly, passionately as the speaker is doing. Not just sit there and casually listen and go away. This is not an entertainment, this is a very serious affair. 思想为什么制造了所有这些? 思想为什么创造了非凡的医学、 而又带来了战争并摧残着人类? 思想为什么制造了神, 并且为什么思想制造了神的形象? 思想制造了关于神的形象。 并且思想也造成了 人与人之间如此巨大的冲突, 在你和你的挚友、 亲密的人、妻子、丈夫、男朋友等等之间的冲突。 你对所有这些感兴趣吗? 或者你来这儿是为了坐在树下 享受一个相当凉爽的早晨? 如果你确实感兴趣——不是对所说的内容, 而是有兴趣去查明事实。 你有兴趣亲自去弄清楚 为什么思想这么做, 思想的本质是什么。 那意味着,我们在一起探究。 那意味着你必须运用你的观察, 你必须像讲话者正在做的那样, 警觉地、敏锐地、热情地探究这个问题。 而不是仅仅坐在那儿,随便听听就走了。 这不是一场娱乐,这是一件非常严肃的事情。 所以我们要像两个朋友一样共同探究、一起讨论。
26:12 So we are enquiring, talking over together as two friends. You can't talk together with so many people but it's two people, you and the speaker, trying to find out why thought has made this confusion, this turmoil. So thought is matter. Thought is the response of memory. Right? If you had no memory you wouldn't be able to think, if you had no remembrance of things past, thought wouldn't operate. So thought is the response of memory. Memory is the outcome of various experiences, multiple incidents, accidents, which have been accumulated as knowledge - follow all this, sirs - stored up in the brain. And that experience, that knowledge, which is memory, and the reaction of that memory is thinking. Right? It's not what I'm saying - you can discover it for yourself. Right? Is that clear? Can we go on from there? That is, through millennia, we have acquired different kinds of knowledge: literary, scientific, personal, experiences. Those experiences have become knowledge both scientific and personal. That knowledge is stored in the brain. So that brain is not your knowledge, it is the human knowledge. I know we like to think that it's my brain and your brain. 你不可能和那么多人一起讨论,而是两个人, 你和讲话者,试着去弄清楚 为什么思想制造了这种困惑、这种混乱。 思想是物质。 思想是记忆的反应,对吗? 如果你没有记忆,你就不能思考, 如果你对过去的事情没有记忆, 思想就不会运作。 所以,思想是记忆的反应。 记忆是各种经验、大量事件、事故的结果, 作为知识被积累起来 ——请跟上所有这些,先生们——被储存在大脑里。 而那个经验、那个知识就是记忆, 那个记忆的反应就是思想,对吗? 那不是我说的——你可以亲自去发现。 对吗?这点清楚了吗?我们可以继续吗? 也就是说,经过数百万年, 我们已经掌握了各种不同的知识: 文学的、科学的、个人的经验。 那些经验成为了知识, 既有科学上的也有个人的知识。 那些知识被储存在大脑里。 因此那个大脑里的不是你的知识,而是人类的知识。 我知道我们喜欢认为那是我的大脑或你的大脑。 由于知识永远都不是完整的,所以
29:18 So this knowledge, experience stored in the brain as memory, must always be limited because knowledge is never complete. Right? Can never be complete, in any field. So with knowledge goes ignorance. Therefore thought is always limited, partial. It can never be complete. Right? Don't agree with me, sirs, examine it. So thought has created this world of confusion because in itself it is limited. Right? Thought, as we said, is matter. That thought can only create matter, thing. Right? It can create illusions, it can create marvellous ideas, utopias, marvellous systems, theories but that very theory, that very ideal, that very concept by the theologians, or by the historians, is always limited. Right? So our actions are always limited. Therefore our actions are fragmented. Right? Our action can never be complete if it is based on thought. Right, sirs? If one realises that, not as an idea but as an actuality - you understand the difference? The idea and the actual. You hear this statement, that thought can never be complete, whatever it creates must be incomplete. You hear that statement and instinctively you make an abstraction of it into an idea. You're following all this? Are we together in this? An abstraction, away from the fact. So then the idea becomes all-important. And then you think, 'How am I to carry out that idea?' So there is again division between action and idea. Are we going too fast? It's up to you. 这些作为记忆储存在大脑里的知识、经验总是有限的。 对吗? 知识在任何领域都不可能完整, 所以知识总是伴随着无知。 因此思想总是局限的、部分的。 它永远不可能完整。 对吗? 不要同意我说的,先生,检验它。 所以,思想制造了这个混乱的世界, 因为它本身是有限的,对吗? 思想,如我们所说,是物质。 那样的思想只能制造物质、事物。 对吗? 它能制造假象, 创建不可思议的想法、 乌托邦、体系和理论, 但是由神学家、历史学家所提出的 理论、理想、观念本身始终是局限的。 对吗? 所以我们的行动也始终是局限的。 因此我们的行动是支离破碎的,对吗? 如果我们的行动基于思想,它就永远不可能完整。 对吗,先生们? 如果一个人意识到这点,不是作为一种观念, 而是作为事实——你明白其中的区别吗? 观念和事实。 你听了这样的叙述,说思想永远不可能完整, 它制造的任何东西肯定都是不完整的。 你听了那个叙述之后本能地 将它抽象为一个观念。 大家跟上所有这些了吗? 在这点上我们达成默契了吗? 一个抽象的观念,远离事实。 然后这个观念变得无比重要。 接着你想,“我要怎样去实现那个想法?” 这样一来行动和观念之间又有了分裂。 我们进行得太快了吗? 这由你来决定。 所以:不带有抽象概念的观察,不带有分析的观察,
33:37 So: observation without abstraction, observation without analysis, observation without any form of conclusion. Just to observe the nature of thinking. That is, who is the observer who is observing the nature of thinking? I wonder if you see this. You understand, sir? Somebody I must talk to. Right? Can I pick on somebody, sir? Right, sir, let's put it this way. One is very greedy, self-centred. That's a fact. Is greed different from you? You understand my question? You are greed! But we have unfortunately created an illusion, that is greed and I will act, do something about that greed. Right? So there is a division between greed and the actor who will act upon greed. Right? So is that a fact? Or is it a pattern which we have developed to escape from the fact? Right? I wonder if you're meeting all this. That is, I am greedy, I don't quite know how to resolve this whole problem of greed so I created its opposite, non-greed, and work with non-greed, which is non-fact. You're following all this? So we are saying, the observer is the observed. Right? Right, sir? So there is no division. Sir, look, there is a division between the Jew and the Arab, right? Created by thought: by racial prejudices, by religious conditioning. But they are living on the same earth. But they are all fighting each other. 观察而不带有任何形式的结论, 仅仅去观察思想的本质。 也就是说,谁是观察者, 谁正在观察思想的本质? 我想知道你们是否理解了这点, 你明白吗,先生? 我必须拿某一个人来说一说。 好吗? 我能批评某个人吗,先生? 好吧,先生,我们这样来说。 你非常贪婪,非常自私。那是事实。 贪婪和你是不同的吗? 你明白我的问题吗? 你就是贪婪! 但是我们很不幸地制造了一个假象: 那是贪婪,因而我要行动,想办法解决贪婪。对吗? 因此在贪婪和对贪婪行事的行动者之间 有一种分裂。对吗?然而那是事实吗? 或者那是我们为了逃离事实 而建立起来的一种模式?对吗? 我想知道你是否明白了所有这些。 也就是说,我是贪婪的, 我不太清楚该如何去解决这整个贪婪的问题, 于是制造了它的对立面,“不贪婪”, 并且对这个并非事实的“不贪婪”下功夫。 你理解所有这些吗? 所以我们说,观察者就是被观察之物。 对吗? 先生,对吗?所以不存在分裂。先生,你看, 犹太人和阿拉伯人之间存在着分裂,对吗? 那是由思想——种族偏见、 宗教制约造成的。 但是他们居住在同一个地球上。 可是他们却都在互相争斗。 那么,如果你非常仔细地观察,就会看到
37:19 Now if you observe it very carefully the human mind is conditioned as a Hindu, as a Muslim, Arab, Jew, Christian, non-Christian. You follow? It has been conditioned. And that conditioning says, 'I'm different from you'. Right? And these differences of conditioning, by thought, encouraged by various people for political, religious reasons, and we hold on to that division. So where there is division there must be struggle, there must be conflict. So when one realises that greed is not separate from me, I am greed, then there is totally a different movement taking place. You're following this, sir? Are we meeting each other in this point? Gosh, it seems so difficult. Is it very complex, what we're talking about? Yes, sir? Look at it, sir. 人类的头脑被局限为一个印度人, 一个穆斯林、阿拉伯人、犹太人、基督徒和非基督徒。 你们理解吗?大脑已经受到了制约。 并且那种制约说:“我和你是不同的”。 对吗? 而这些制约的差异,通过思想, 因为政治、宗教的原因受到了各种人的鼓励, 并且我们紧紧抓住那种分裂不放。 所以只要有分裂的地方,就必定存在斗争, 就必定存在冲突。 所以当一个人意识到 贪婪和我不是分开的,我就是贪婪, 那么一种完全不同的运动就会发生。 你理解这点吗,先生? 我们在这一点上达成默契了吗? 天哪,看起来是这么困难。 我们所谈的内容非常复杂吗? 是吗,先生? 先生,看一看。 你会如何面对暴力?
38:53 How will you meet violence? Human beings are violent. Right? We have cultivated the opposite. Right? The non-violence, don't be violent, be kind, be just, be all the rest of it. But basically we are violent, it still goes on, after a million years. Is that violence different from you? It's not, obviously. You are violence! Now can you observe that fact without making any kind of idea about the fact? Then what takes place? You're following all this? I'm violent. As a human being I'm violent. And I have lived with that violence for a million years, my brain has formed the pattern of not being violent and yet violence. And the pursuit of not being violent is an escape from the fact. And, if I observe the fact, is the fact of being violent different from me, my nature, my way of looking? I am that. Right? Do we agree? 人类是暴力的,对吗? 我们已经培养出了它的对立面。 对吗?那个“非暴力”,不要做暴力的人, 要友善、公正,要……诸如此类。 但是骨子里我们是暴力的, 并且在一百万年之后依旧如此。 那个暴力和你是不同的吗? 很显然不是的。你就是暴力! 那么你能在不制造任何关于事实的观念 的情况下观察那个事实吗? 然后会发生什么?大家跟上所有这些了吗? 我是暴力的。作为一个人,我很暴力。 并且我已经和暴力共处了一百万年, 我的大脑已经形成了 那种不要暴力然而仍旧是暴力的模式。 而追求非暴力是对事实的逃离。 所以,如果我观察事实, 那么这个暴力的事实和我、 我的本质、我看的方式是不同的吗?我就是那些,对吗? 我们同意吗? 然后,之前存在的冲突就结束了,
41:00 Then, the conflict which existed before ends, doesn't it? I wonder if you see this. The conflict of division between violence and not being violent, that's a conflict, but when there is the realisation, 'I am conflict', not 'I am different from conflict', then that conflict ends. And a totally different action takes place. So sir, our question is: 不是吗? 我想知道你们是否明白了这点。 暴力和非暴力之间的分裂冲突 是一场斗争,但是当你意识到 “我就是冲突”,而不是“我与冲突不同”, 那么,那个冲突就结束了。 此时一种完全不同的行动就会发生。 所以先生,我们的问题是: 思想是时间中的运动。
42:00 thought is the movement in time. Right? Thought is based on memory, which is the past, the past with all its conclusions, ideas, beliefs, images, from that past the present, the past meets the present and the future. Right? There's a constant modification going on. That is time. Right? There is not only chronological time, by the watch, by the day, night, night and day but also there is psychological time. Right? 'I will be'. When you say, 'I will be' that is time. 'I must become something' - that's time. 'I am not good but I will be good', that's time. And time is also thought. Right? Time as day and night, time when you have to go and catch the bus, time to acquire knowledge, to learn a language, time to acquire any kind of technological knowledge, to act skilfully, to earn a livelihood, all that is time, requires time. Psychologically, inwardly, we have also this idea of time. Right? 'I am not' but 'I will be'. 'I am confused, I'll go to the analyst, he will help me'. Time. So psychologically we have cultivated this idea of time. Right? 对吗? 思想以记忆为基础,记忆是“过去”, “过去”带着它的结论、概念、信仰、意象, 从那个“过去”然后到“现在”, “过去”与“现在”和“未来”相遇。对吗? 存在一种持续调整的过程,那就是时间。 对吗? 不仅存在手表上显示的、 按白天和夜晚来计算的物理时间, 还存在心理时间,对吗? “我将会”。 当你说,“我将会”,那就是时间。 “我必须成为什么”——那是时间。 “我不好,但是我会变好”, 那是时间。 而时间也是思想,对吗? 作为白天和夜晚的时间, 当你离开和赶公交车时需要的时间, 花费时间去获取知识,学习某种语言, 掌握任何一种技术知识, 熟练地操作,赚取生计, 所有那些都是时间,都需要时间。 心理上、内在地,我们也有这种时间观念,对吗? “我不是”,但“我将会是”。 “我困惑,我会去找分析师,他会帮助我”, 时间。 所以在心理上,我们已经培养出了时间这个观念。 对吗? 所以时间是从这里到那里的运动。
44:57 So time is a movement from here to there. Psychologically also it's a movement from here to there. So thought is time. Right? This is important to understand because our brain is the essence of time and we've functioned psychologically in that pattern. 'I will have pleasure'. 'I remember being happy, having a marvellous experience, this or that, and I must have more'. This constant becoming is time. Now we're asking is that an actuality or a fiction or an illusion, psychologically? Right, sir, are you getting tired? This is too much probably, all this. 心理上的时间也是从这里到那里的运动。 所以思想是时间。 对吗? 理解这点非常重要,因为 我们的大脑是时间的本质, 并且心理层面上我们在那种模式中运作。 “我将拥有快乐。” “我记得曾经很开心,有过一次不可思议的经历, 这个或那个,而我必须拥有更多。” 这个持续的“成为”就是时间。 现在我们要问,那是一个事实呢, 还是心理上的一个假象或者幻觉呢? 对吗,先生,你们累了吗? 可能这些内容太多了,所有这些。 我们说,在获取各种、很多种不同知识的过程中,
46:35 We're saying, time is necessary in the acquisition of knowledge of various kinds, many kinds. Now, is time necessary to end something, psychologically? You're following? That is, psychologically, I have fear. Most human beings have fear. And they have had this fear, psychologically, probably from the very beginning of time, from the very beginning of psychological time. Right? And we haven't resolved it. Not only are we frightened of physical pain and so on, physically, but psychologically also we have great fears of getting hurt, getting bruised, wounded, psychologically, because from childhood we have been hurt, and so on. So our brain functions in time. And so it has never resolved any of the problems. I wonder if you meet this. If I say to myself, 'I will get over my fear' actually what takes place is I'm still frightened at the end of it. I exercise will, control it, escape from it and so on. And so human beings have never resolved this problem of fear. And we are saying, as long as we think in patterns of time psychologically, fear will continue. Is this clear? 时间是必须的。 那么,在心理上要结束某个事情时,时间是必须的吗? 你们跟上了吗? 换句话说,在心理上,我有恐惧。 大多数人都心怀恐惧。 并且他们拥有的是心理上的恐惧, 可能从时间一开始的时候, 从心理时间的诞生之初就有了。 对吗? 而我们没有解决它。 我们不仅在物理上害怕身体的疼痛等等, 并且心理上也害怕, 我们心理上非常恐惧 受到损伤、被伤害。 因为从小我们就受到了伤害,等等。 所以我们的大脑在时间中运作。 因此它从来没有解决过那些问题中的任何一个。 我想知道你们是否看到了这点。 如果我对自己说,“我会克服我的恐惧”, 实际上发生的事情是 最后我还是会害怕。 我运用意志力,控制它,逃离它等等。 因此人类从来都没有解决这个恐惧的问题。 而我们说,只要我们在心理上 在时间的模式中思考,恐惧将会继续存在。 这点清楚了吗? 所以,我们说:
49:16 So, we are saying: can this thing called fear be ended immediately? Now let me take another example. Fear is rather a complex problem which we'll go into perhaps tomorrow, in another talk. Take for instance dependence, psychological dependence. Human beings have cultivated this because they are afraid to be alone, they are afraid to be lonely, they want comfort, they feel sustained if they depend on somebody. Because in themselves they are insufficient psychologically, therefore clinging to somebody, a religious image, or a personal image and so on, clinging to somebody. 这个被称为恐惧的东西能够立即结束吗? 现在让我举另外一个例子。 恐惧是一个相当复杂的问题,或许我们 可以在明天的另一场谈话中探讨它。 我们以依赖为例,心理依赖。 人类已经培养出了心理依赖, 因为他们害怕一个人待着, 他们害怕孤独,他们想要安慰, 依赖某人可以让他们感觉安定。 由于他们自身在心理上感觉不足, 因此依附于某个人、 某个宗教形象,或者某个个人形象,等等, 依附于某人。 而这已经成了人类大脑运作的模式,
50:29 Now that has been the pattern of the human mind, cultivated through time. The consequences of dependence is fear, anxiety, jealousy, hatred, antagonism, all that follows. In that pattern we have lived. Right? Now to end that pattern immediately is the question. Because the moment you admit time, 'I will end it', you have admitted moving away from the fact. Right? The fact is, one is dependent. Now ,without admitting time, you understand, - 'I will get over it' - end it, immediately. You have broken the pattern of time. You are following this? Are you working as hard as I am working for you? That is, sir, observe how you are dependent on another, psychologically. All the remembrance, all the pictures, the images and so on - dependent. And our brain has been used to the pattern of time because it has grown with time. So it has exercised an act of will - 'I will' - and that means avoiding the fact. Now when one understands, not intellectually, or verbally but actually sees the fact, how the brain works in time and therefore never resolves, and you see the urgency of not depending, it is ended! When you end something, a new thing begins. Right? 通过时间发展而来。 依赖的后果是恐惧、焦虑、嫉妒、 怨恨、敌对,诸如此类随之而来。 我们生活在那个模式里,对吗? 现在的问题是,立刻终结那个模式。 因为一旦你容许时间介入,“我将会结束它”, 你就容许了自己逃离事实。 对吗? 事实是,你有依赖性, 那么,不允许时间介入,你知道, ——“我将会克服它”——立即结束它。 你已经破除了时间模式。你们跟上了吗? 你们是在像我为你们工作那样努力地工作着吗? 也就是说,先生,观察 你在心理上是怎样依赖别人的。 所有的记忆、画面、 意象等等——依赖他人。 并且我们的大脑已经习惯了时间模式, 因为它是随着时间成长起来的。 所以它已经运用了意志的行为 ——“我要”——而那意味着逃避事实。 那么,当一个人理解了,不是智力上或口头上, 而是实际上看到了大脑是如何在时间中运作的, 因此永远不可能解决问题这个事实, 并且你看到了不依赖的紧迫性, 那么时间模式就结束了! 当你结束某些事情,一件新事情就会发生。 对吗? 我们是在一起思考吗,还是说
53:19 Are we thinking together or are you merely listening to the talk of a speaker and then saying, 'Yes, I don't quite understand what he's talking about. He talks about this and that'. Which means, you really are not thinking about the problem which is your problem, the problem of humanity, the problem which is to bring about a totally different kind of society. 你只是在听讲话者演讲, 然后说,“好吧, 我不太明白他在谈些什么。 他说了这个和那个”。 那意味着,你实际上没有真正思考这个问题, 那是你的问题、人类的问题, 是创造一个 完全不同的社会的问题。 所以,你是否可能结束你的敌意、你的怨恨、
54:11 So is it possible to end your antagonism, your hatred, your jealousy, - you understand - immediately! So that the brain has broken the pattern, and can think and can act and look and observe totally differently. I wonder if you get this! Sir, this is meditation. You understand? Not all the phoney stuff that has been talked about. To meditate, which means to observe how your mind operates not what the psychologists have told you how your mind operates, Freud and all the rest of the gang, but to observe for yourself because you are responsible for yourself, for your body, for your mind, for your thoughts. So can you observe the whole content of your consciousness? You understand? Am I making this too difficult, sirs? I don't know, would you tell me a little bit? Am I making this too difficult? Your consciousness is full of the things that thought has created. Right? Your anxieties, your beliefs, your gods, your saviours, your Krishna's - you follow? All that has been created by thought. So your consciousness is the essence of time. By gosh, do you get it? And we are living, functioning, acting in that. And therefore there is never a radical, psychological change. And therefore society can never be good. Goodness is not the opposite of bad. Right? If it is, it is not good. Love is not the opposite of hate. Right? If it is, it is still hate. Right? 你的嫉妒, ——你知道——立即结束! 那样,头脑就破除了模式,然后就能以一种 完全不同的方式思考、运作、看和观察了。 我想知道你是否领会了这点! 先生,这就是冥想。你理解吗? 完全不是众说纷纭的那些骗人的东西。 冥想,意味着去观察 你的头脑是如何运作的,不是心理学家们 告诉你的那些关于你的头脑如何运作的知识, 弗洛伊德和诸如此类的那帮人, 而是你亲自去观察, 因为你需要对自己, 对你的身体、大脑和思想负责。 所以,你能观察你意识的整个内容吗? 你明白吗? 先生们,我把这些弄得太难了吗? 我不知道,你能告诉我一下吗? 我是不是把这个弄得太难了? 你的意识充满了思想制造的东西。 对吗? 你的焦虑,你的信仰,你的神明, 你的救世主,你的克里希那——你跟上了吗? 所有那些都是思想制造的。 所以,你的意识是时间的精髓。 看在老天的份上,你们明白了吗? 而我们在那样的意识中生活、运转、行动。 因此从来没有产生一次彻底的心理上的转变。 因此社会永远不可能变好。 “好”并不是“坏”的对立面。对吗? 如果它是“坏”的对立面,那它就不是好。 爱不是恨的对立面。对吗? 如果它是恨的对立面,那它就仍然是恨。 对吗? 先生,现在几点了?
57:44 So sir, what time is it? 11:30, 12:30, we better stop here. We'll continue tomorrow, if you all want to come. 11点30分,12点30分,我们最好先谈到这儿。 明天我们会继续探讨,如果你们都想来的话。