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OJ80T4 - 欲望、依附与恐惧
第四次公开讲话
美国，加州，欧亥
1980年5月11日



0:36 May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday? We were saying, weren't we, that our brain, the whole of our mind also, has lived through many, many experiences, many accidents, every form of experience and has accumulated a great deal of knowledge. And that knowledge has formed a pattern according to which we live. And that pattern has been created through time. Not only time necessary to learn a language, to learn any kind of technique, skill, but also that very knowledge has created a whole structure of our existence, psychologically, inwardly, inside the skin, as it were. And apparently after many, many million years, we have hardly psychologically changed at all. We have become more modified, more cunning, capable of arguing intelligently, or semi-intelligently. And this pattern, which has been created through time unless that pattern it is completely broken, - as we went into it yesterday - we will not be able to create a new society. The society in which we live, with its wars, immorality, with its violence, terror, with its constant uncertainty, has been created by human beings whether we live here, in the Far East, the Near East, it has been structured, put together by human beings. And unless the human beings, psychologically, radically, profoundly change, society cannot be changed. They have experimented, as the communists have done, change the environment hoping thereby to change man. Of course, this never can be done. Man overcomes the environment, and so on and so on and so on. 我们可以继续昨天谈论的内容吗？ 我们说过，不是吗， 我们的大脑，也就是我们的整个心智， 经历了许许多多的经验、 许多意外，有各种形式的经验， 并且积累了大量的知识。 而那些知识形成了一种模式， 我们根据那种模式生活。 并且那种模式是通过时间建立起来的。 不仅学习一种语言需要时间， 学习任何一门技术、技能也一样， 而且正是那些知识建立了我们存在的 整个结构，把它建立在心理上、 我们的内在、我们的肌肤之下。 并且显而易见的是，在数百万年之后， 我们几乎没有任何心理上的转变。 我们变得更善于调整，更狡猾， 能够聪明或半聪明地争辩。 而这种模式，通过时间建立了起来， 除非那种模式被完全打破， ——如我们昨天深入探讨的那样—— 否则我们不可能创造一个新社会。 我们生活于其中的社会，有着它的战争、不道德， 有着它的暴力、恐怖行为， 有着它持续的不确定性， 它是由人类建立的， 不论我们住这儿，在远东还是近东， 社会都是人类建造起来、组合起来的。 而除非人类在心理上产生根本的、 深刻的改变，否则社会不可能改变。 他们试验过了，像共产主义者做的那样， 希望通过改变环境来使人发生变化。 当然，这永远不可能做到。 人类去战胜环境，等等，等等，等等。
4:29 So if one is at all serious, concerned with world events, with all the confusion and misery in which we all live, it becomes absolutely necessary to bring about a psychological revolution in ourselves. We said thought has created this mad, insane world. Thought thinks that it is rational, capable. In certain fields, in the technological, in the world of commerce and so on, there it is fairly rational. But psychologically it is totally irrational. Thought, as we said yesterday, is the outcome of memory, experience, knowledge. And we also said yesterday that thought is matter and whatever it creates must belong to that. And can that thought, which is limited as knowledge is always limited, can that thought bring about a radical change in itself? That's what we were talking about yesterday. And we should go much further into the problem. 所以，如果一个人是完全认真的，关心世界大事， 关心我们大家生活于其中的所有困惑和不幸， 那么在我们自身之中带来一场心理革命 就变得绝对必要。 我们说过，思想制造了这个疯狂、愚蠢的世界。 思想认为那是合理的、可行的。在特定的领域里， 在技术方面，在贸易等领域， 在那里思想是相当合理的。 但是在心理上，它是完全不合理的。 如我们昨天所说，思想是记忆、 经验、知识的结果。 并且我们昨天也说过，思想是物质， 所以无论它制造出什么，都必定属于物质。 而那个思想，是局限的， 因为知识总是局限的， 那个思想能够为自身带来一次彻底的改变吗？ 那就是我们昨天探讨的内容。 而我们应该更加深入地来探究这个问题。
6:37 Also please bear in mind that we are talking over together. It is not the speaker talking and you listening but rather both of us exercising our brain, our capacities, our intellect if we are rational, think over this problem together. Which does not mean you accept what the speaker is saying but rather together, you and he, go into the matter. You know, it is an extraordinary thing in the Eastern religions doubt is encouraged - to doubt. In the Western religious world, faith is substituted for doubt. Do you understand what I am saying? So our minds are rather more inclined to accept than to examine. Our brain refuses to see something new because it is caught in the same old pattern. And we are going to examine that pattern because we are not advocating any faith, on the contrary. We are not saying that you must believe or not believe, we are not doing any kind of propaganda, it is all too silly in these matters. 也请记住，我们是在一起讨论。 并不是讲话者讲而你听， 而是我们双方运用我们的头脑、 我们的能力、我们的理智——如果我们是理性的， 来一起考虑这个问题。 那并不意味着你接受讲话者所说的， 而是你和他一起，深入探究这个问题。 你知道，在东方的宗教中，有一件非凡的事情： 质疑是受到鼓励的——去质疑。 在西方的宗教世界中， 信仰取代了质疑。 你明白我所说的话吗？ 所以，我们的心智宁可更加倾向于接受 而不是检验。 我们的大脑拒绝去看新事物， 因为它受困于同一个旧有模式之中。 而我们要去审视那个模式， 因为正相反，我们不主张任何信念。 我们不会说你必须相信或不相信， 我们不会做任何种类的宣传， 在这些事情上，那样做简直太愚蠢了。
8:50 So we are going together to examine the whole issue that is involved in our human existence. If I may suggest, please don't take notes. One can't pay attention while you are taking notes. Sorry! And please don't take photographs and tape recorders and all that kind of things because it disturbs others. So kindly refrain from doing all that kind of thing. I hope you don't mind. It's not a matter of copyright, or anything of that kind, it is merely for the convenience and the distraction that takes place when you are taking photographs and so on. What we are trying to do together is to examine what is going on now not only in the world but also in ourselves as we did in the last few talks. 所以我们将一起来审视 我们人类生存所涉及的全部问题。 如果我可以建议的话，请不要做笔记。 当你做笔记的时候，你就无法投入注意力。 抱歉！ 并且请不要进行拍照或录音， 以及所有类似的事情，因为那会打扰别人。 所以烦请大家克制一下，不做所有那些事情。 我希望你不会介意。 那不是版权的问题，或任何那种事情， 而仅仅是为了便利，并且 当你拍照等等的时候，注意力会分散。 我们要试着一起做的是 审视现在正在发生的事情， 不仅在世界上，而且在我们自己身上发生的事情， 如我们在前几次谈话中所做的那样。
10:16 So we are asking whether this pattern of existence in which the brain has established itself, seeking security, because that is the primary need for the brain to be completely secure. Whether that security is in an illusion or in some fanciful idea or some romantic concept, or in an image: spiritual, religious, and all that kind of thing, or the image that you have about your wife, or your husband, or your boy friend, or girl friend - you know all that business. So the brain is always trying to find security because it is only then that it can function somewhat skilfully. This pattern has been put together by desire, first by thought, by desire, through attachment, through greed. And though it is caught in fear it seems incapable of escaping from that or overcoming that, or being free from it. If you will kindly examine these three things together that is, desire, - though we examined together yesterday and in the previous talks the whole movement of thought - desire, greed, attachment, fear. That's the pattern in which we are caught. And is it possible to break this pattern? Please enquire together with the speaker. That is, let's think over the matter together. Not that I am explaining and you are accepting or you are rejecting and so on but that is the problem that confronts us. 所以我们要问，这种 大脑在其中确立了自身 并寻求安全的生存模式， 是不是因为大脑的首要需求就是 得到彻底的安全。 不论那种安全是在幻象中， 或在某些奇思妙想中， 或在某些浪漫的观念中，或在一个意象中： 精神的、宗教的以及类似的事物， 或你拥有的关于你妻子、你丈夫 或男朋友、女朋友的意象——你知道所有那些事情。 所以大脑总是试图找到安全感， 因为只有那时，它才能 在某种程度上熟练地运作。 这个模式由欲望组合在一起， 首先由思想、由欲望， 通过依附、通过贪婪得以建立。 并且尽管它被困在恐惧中， 它好像没有能力从中逃脱， 无法克服恐惧，或者从中解脱。 如果你愿意把这三件事情放在一起来探究， 即欲望， ——虽然昨天和前几次谈话中，我们一起审视了 思想的整个活动—— 欲望，贪婪，依附，恐惧。 我们就困在这个模式中。 那么有没有可能打破这个模式呢？ 请与讲话者一起探询。 也就是说，让我们一起来思考这件事。 并非我解释，而你接受 或者你拒绝等等， 而是那是我们共同面临的问题。
13:27 Desire has created so many problems. Both sexual, various forms of objects towards which desire drives and desire to achieve success, desire to be better than somebody and so on and so on. This whole competitive existence of human beings. Perhaps competition is destroying the world: super powers, and so on, the importance given to success, to fulfilment, to achievement and so on. So we have to examine together the nature of desire. We are not saying you must suppress or fulfil desire, or evade, or overcome, but we are examining the whole momentum, the movement of desire. We are following each other? 欲望制造了如此多的问题。 既有两性问题， 受欲望驱使要达到的各种形式的目标， 还有获得成功的欲望、 比别人更好的欲望，等等，等等。 人类的这整个竞争性的生活。 竞争也许正在破坏这个世界： 超级大国，等等， 赋予成功、 满足、成就等等以重要性。 所以我们必须一起来审视欲望的本质。 我们不是说你必须压制或满足欲望， 或逃避它、克服它，而是我们要探查 欲望的整个动力、欲望的运动。 我们相互理解了吗？
15:19 Religions - that is the institutionalised acceptance of some dogmas, rituals, images and so on - those religions have said, 'Desire must be suppressed. In order to serve God you must come without any desire'. I don't know if you have gone into it. We needn't go into that matter now. But we are not saying we must do that, we are examining. If we can understand the nature and the structure of desire, not verbally or intellectually, but actually, factually, then perhaps desire has its proper place. But now desire is so all consuming, instant fulfilment of desire, whether it is in meditation, whether it is in taking coffee, whether going somewhere or other, it must be fulfilled, it must be acted upon instantly. Restraint is looked down upon, is even denied. But we are saying, before we do anything about desire - whether it is right or wrong, whether it is noble or ignoble, whether it has a proper place in society and so on and so on - we must understand the nature of it. Right, sirs? Are we following each other? Good! 宗教——就是对某些教条、仪式、 形象等等的制度化的接受—— 那些宗教说，“必须压制欲望。 为了服务上帝，你必须没有任何欲望地来到这里”。 我不知道你是否深入探究过这个问题。 我们现在不需要探讨这个问题。 但我们不会说我们必须那样做，我们是在审视。 如果我们能理解欲望的本质和结构， 不是从字面上或智力上，而是实际真正地理解， 那么，或许欲望就会有其适当的位置。 但由于欲望如此强烈， 对欲望的即刻满足， 无论是在冥想中，还是在喝咖啡时， 无论是去某个地方，还是做其他的事情，它必须得到满足， 它必须立即被付诸行动。 克制受到了人们的轻视，甚至是否定。 但我们要说，在我们对欲望采取行动之前 ——不管欲望是对的还是错的，不管它是高尚的或卑微的， 不管它在社会中是否有一个合适的位置，等等等等—— 我们必须理解欲望的本质。对吗，先生们？ 我们相互理解了吗？很好 ！ 欲望是什么？
17:37 What is desire? What is the root of it, not merely the objects of desire which vary according to our age, according to our circumstances, environment, pressure and so on, what is the root of desire, how does desire come into being and why does desire play such an extraordinary part in one's life? Right? Please, sirs, as we said, we are talking over together, seeing the nature of desire, not according to the speaker. As he pointed out earlier, we must have doubt. Doubt is a very cleansing thing. But also doubt must be kept on a leash as a dog is kept on a leash: you must let the dog go sometimes, run, but also we must keep it on a leash, occasionally. So in the same way doubt has an extraordinary quality of cleansing the mind, but also it must be kept on a leash. 欲望的根源是什么，不仅仅是欲望的对象， 欲望的对象根据我们的年龄，根据我们的环境、 压力等等而变化， 欲望的根源是什么，欲望是如何产生的， 并且为什么欲望在一个人的生活中扮演如此重要的角色？ 对吗？ 请注意，先生们，如我们说过的， 我们要一起探讨， 看清欲望的本质， 而不是参照讲话者的见解。 如他之前指出的， 我们必须质疑。 质疑是一件非常具有净化作用的事情。 但对质疑也必须有所约束， 就像一只狗被拴在一根皮带上那样： 某些时候，你必须让狗出去、奔跑， 我们又必须偶尔用皮带把它拴住。 因此，以同样的方式，质疑拥有一种 净化心灵的非凡品质， 但它也必须得到某种约束。 所以我们说，让我们一起来探讨
19:20 So we are saying, together let us talk over the nature of desire, and find out its proper place. What is desire? How does it come into being with all of us, with the most highly sophisticated, educated intellectuals, with the ordinary person, and also with all those monks and saints who are consumed by desire? You may take a vow of celibacy, like the monks do all over the world, but desire is burning in them. So we must carefully examine this thing. Right, sirs? 欲望的本质，并且找出它合适的位置。 欲望是什么？ 它是如何在我们所有人身上产生的， 在最世故、最有教养的知识分子中， 在普通人，以及在所有那些被欲望耗尽的 僧侣和圣徒身上是如何产生的？ 你可能发誓独身，像 全世界的僧侣做的那样，但欲望在他们心里熊熊燃烧。 所以我们必须仔细地探究这件事。 对吗，先生们？ 你如何着手这个问题？
20:49 How do you approach this problem? You understand? How do you, when you want to examine the nature of desire how do you look at it? You understand my question? How do you consider, or observe the movement of desire? If you are conditioned, your approach will naturally be partial. If you are enormously consumed by desire then it will also be very limited. But to examine the nature of it one must have somewhat a free mind. Right, sirs? So let's do it together. 你理解吗？ 当你想要审视欲望的本质，你会怎么做？ 你如何看待它？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你如何考虑，或者观察欲望的活动？ 如果你受到了制约， 你的着手方式将自然是局部的。 如果你被欲望牢牢占据， 那么处理方式也将是非常局限的。 但要审视欲望的本质， 一个人就必须在某种程度上拥有一个自由的头脑。 对吗，先生们？ 所以让我们一起来做这件事。 不仅存在视觉上的看到，
22:05 There is not only visual seeing that is, you see something very beautiful and the perception of it, the seeing of it creates a sensation. Right? There is sensation, contact - right? - the seeing, the sensation, the contact, then, what takes place after that? You understand my question, what I am saying? You see something, a woman, a man, a car, a picture, the seeing creates the sensation. Then the touching of it. Then what takes place? You are following this? Please follow it, otherwise I will be talking and you will merely be listening, which will lead us nowhere. 也就是说，你看到某个非常美丽的事物， 而对它的感知，对它的看到 产生了一种感觉。对吗？ 先是有感觉，接触——对吗？—— 看到、 感觉、接触， 然后，在那之后发生了什么？ 你理解我的问题、我在说什么吗？ 你看到某些东西，一个女人、一个男人、一辆车、一幅画， 这个“看到”产生了“感觉”。 接下来是触摸它。 之后发生了什么？ 你跟上了吗？ 请跟上，否则就是我在谈论 而你仅仅只是在听， 那不会将我们引向任何地方。 那么欲望是从哪里开始的呢？
23:41 So where does desire begin? Seeing, contact, sensation. Then thought creates the image and when thought has created the image through that seeing, sensation, contact, then thought creates the image, thought makes that desire to possess or not to possess. Right ? I wonder if you are following this. You see a shirt, or a suit, or a dress, a car, or a beautiful woman, or a man, whatever it is. There is the sensation, contact, then thought creates the image, you in that shirt, in that dress or in the car, at that moment desire is born. You are following all this? It is not what I am telling you you are discovering this for yourselves. Right? Are we going together? “看到”，“接触”，“感觉”。 然后思想制造出意象， 并且当思想通过“看到”、“感觉”、“接触” 建立了形象时， 接着思想就制造了意象， 思想产生了想要“拥有或不拥有”的欲望。 对吗？我想知道你是否理解这点。 你看到一件衬衫、一套西装，或一条裙子， 一辆车，或一个美丽的女人、一个男人，无论什么。 先是有感觉、接触， 然后思想制造出意象：你穿着那件衬衫、那条裙子， 或你在车里，此时欲望就产生了。 你理解所有这些吗？ 这不是我要告诉你的事情， 而是你要亲自去发现。 对吗？ 我们是在一起往前走吗？ 所以欲望诞生于思想制造意象之时。
25:20 So desire is born when thought creates the image. When there is seeing, contact, sensation, then thought with its image sitting in the car, driving the car or wanting, you follow, the whole momentum takes place. Then arises the question - if you are interested in it - is it possible to see something - the sensation is natural, the contact is natural - but to see, when thought arises with its image, desire creates all kinds of complications. Right? I wonder if you are following all this. So the question is: is it possible for thought not to create the image at all? You understand? That is, seeing the car, the sensation, thought creating the image of you driving in that car, - the power, the position, you know all the fun of it - but before thought creates the image not to allow that image to be formed. I wonder if you are following this. Vous avez compris? Have you understood something at all? Are we moving together? 当有了看到、接触、感觉， 接下来是思想以及“坐在车里，开车 或想要车”的意象，你理解，这整个动力就发生了。 然后出现了一个问题——如果你对这感兴趣—— 有没有可能看到某个东西 ——感觉是自然的，接触是自然的—— 而是当思想产生出意象、 欲望制造出各种复杂的反应时，看到这一点。 对吗？我想知道你是否理解了所有这些。 所以问题是：思想有可能 不制造任何意象吗？ 你理解吗？ 也就是说，看到车，有了感觉， 思想会制造你开着那辆车的画面， ——权力，地位，你知道所有那些开心事—— 而在思想制造意象之前 不让那个意象形成。 我想知道你有没有理解这点。 你理解吗？你究竟了解过任何事情吗？ 我们是在一起往前走吗？ 所以我们说，纪律不是顺从
27:23 So we are saying, discipline is not conformity - right? - but the very observation of the whole movement of desire creates its own order. Are you following all this? You do it now, as you are sitting there, watch your desire. You must have desire for something, even for heaven, for illumination, for beauty, for goodness, whatever it is. Observe how this desire comes into being. And the moment thought creates the image then there is the whole of that energy directed. You follow? I wonder, are you capturing something? So desire then does not make disorder as it is doing now. That is, then, in the understanding of the nature of desire, that very understanding is order in which there is no suppression, no conformity, no conflict. Have you understood any of this? Well, sirs, have some of you understood? Not understood. See how desire works for yourself? Then you will see that every form of controlling desire, suppressing desire, overcoming desire, ends. Because you see how desire comes into being and before it arises you are aware of the whole nature of the movement of desire. I wonder if you... Understand it, sir! I must talk to someone! ——对吗？—— 但正是这种对欲望整个活动的观察 建立了它自己的秩序。 你理解所有这些吗？ 你现在就这么做，当你坐在那儿的时候，观察你的欲望。 你肯定有对于某些事物的欲望，甚至是天堂、 启迪、美丽、善良，无论什么的欲望。 观察这种欲望是如何产生的。 而思想一旦制造出意象， 全部能量就会被引向那个方向。你理解吗？ 我想知道，你领会到什么了吗？ 这样欲望就不会再像它现在做的那样制造失序了。 也就是说，那时，通过了解欲望的本质， 那种了解就是秩序， 其中没有抑制，没有顺从，没有冲突。 你对此有所理解吗？ 好的，先生们，你们中有人理解了吗？ 没理解。你亲自看到了欲望是如何运作的吗？ 然后你就会看到每一个控制欲望、 压抑欲望、克服欲望的模式都结束了。 因为你看到了欲望是如何形成的，并且在它产生之前 你觉察到了整个欲望活动的本质。 我想知道你是否...... 理解这点，先生！我必须拿某个人来批评一下！ 那么贪婪是欲望的一种形式。
30:24 So greed is a form of desire. Greed is encouraged by all the industrialists, by the commercial, you know all that business, it's encouraged. And that is becoming an immense problem in this world. Materialism is part of this greed. 贪婪被所有的实业家、 商业——你知道所有那些把戏——所鼓励，它受到了鼓励。 并且在这个世界上，那演变成了一个巨大的问题。 物质主义是贪婪的一部分。 然后，从这里我们可以来看依附的问题。
31:06 Then from that we can move to the question of attachment. Most of us are attached to something or other. It may be a piece of property, old furniture, or a picture, or an idea, or a belief, or an experience. Watch yourself, please. You know you are attached to something or to a person, to some experience that one has had. Where there is attachment... - please listen, just observe the consequence of attachment, we are not saying you mustn't be attached just observe the nature of attachment - and then out of that observation comes right action with regard to attachment. If you are attached to a belief, what is the nature of that belief, who has created the belief? You understand? You are attached to a religious concept, a religious image, or to a person. What is implied in that attachment? First, please just listen. You understand? Just listen, then we can move together. You know you are attached to something, why? Is it that you are lonely? Is it, by being attached to something you feel sufficient in yourself? Is it that if you are not attached to anything you feel completely isolated, empty? Is it being attached to a person gives you comfort, security, a sense of identification? The consequences of all that is the loss of it, the fear of losing it, jealousy, anxiety, hatred, the sense of being deeply wounded. So attachment will inevitably lead to all this. Right? 我们大部分人都依附于这个或那个东西。 它可能是一宗财产、一件旧家具，或一幅画， 或一个想法、一个信念、一段经历。 请观察你自己。 你知道你依附于某个事物或某个人， 或你拥有的某次经验。 有依附的地方...... ——请听好，只是观察依附的结果， 我们没有说你一定不能依附， 而仅仅观察依附的本质就可以了—— 然后从那个观察中 就会产生针对依附的正确的行动。 如果你依附于一种信仰， 那个信仰的本质是什么，是谁制造了那个信仰？ 你理解吗？ 你依附于一种宗教观念、 一个宗教形象，或一个人。 在那种依附中隐含着什么呢？ 首先，请先听好。——你理解吗？ 先听好，然后我们才能一起往前走。 你知道你依附于某些事物，为什么？ 是因为你感到孤独吗？ 是不是通过依附某些东西 你自己会感到充实？ 是不是如果你不依附于任何事物， 你就会感到完全孤立、空虚？ 是不是“依附于某人”能给你安慰、安全、 一种认同感？ 所有那些的后果是失去它， 害怕失去它，嫉妒，焦虑，憎恨， 深受伤害的感觉。 所以依附将不可避免地导致所有这些。对吗？ 那么当讲话者解释了这一切，
34:41 Now when the speaker explains all this is it an idea or an actuality? You understand what I am saying? Have you formed an idea of attachment or you actually see for yourself that you are attached? And see for yourself the consequences of it? And so it is not an idea which you accept but you are observing the movement of attachment. Right? Now, what will you do about it? You understand my question? When you have observed the nature of attachment, how thought creates the image about a person and is attached to that image. Right? And to the person. The image is far more important than the person. I wonder if you are following all this? So can attachment with all the consequences which brings great conflict, misery, confusion, antagonism, can all that end? 那是一个概念呢，还是一项事实呢？ 你理解我所说的吗？ 你是形成了一个关于依附的概念呢， 还是你实际上亲自看到自己依附于外物？ 并且亲自看到了依附的后果？ 因此，那不是你接受的一个概念， 而是你在观察依附的活动。 对吗？ 那么，你会拿它怎么办呢？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 当你观察了依附的本质， 思想如何制造关于一个人的意象， 并且依附于那个意象。 对吗？ 并且依附那个人。 那个意象远比那个人重要。 我想知道你有没有理解所有这些？ 所以，这种会带来 巨大冲突、不幸、困惑、敌对的依附 及其所有后果，能全部结束吗？ 然后，当你结束依附的时候，会发生什么？
36:37 Then what takes place when you end attachment? You are following? Please, sir. You understand my question? You are attached, you know, you have intellectually or actually observed the consequences of attachment, with its conflict, fear and so on. Is it an action of will to say, 'I will end attachment'? Or you have an insight into attachment? If you have an insight into attachment because you see the whole movement of it then there is an ending of it. Not that you are attached to something else. You understand? One may be attached to that person or that idea and letting that attachment go and be attached to another person, another idea. We are talking of the ending of all attachment which brings enormous psychological conflict. Have you the insight into it, and therefore end it? Then what takes place? When you end something - you understand? - when you stop drinking, if you do, or when you stop smoking or any of those things both physically and psychologically, what happens? Sirs... You want me to tell you? You see, that is the danger. That's how you create authority, dependence on another. Whereas if you discover for yourself when you end an attachment completely what is the state of the mind that has been caught in the pattern and in the movement of that attachment. What happens to the mind? Something totally new takes place, doesn't it? You have broken the pattern of attachment therefore naturally something other than this pattern comes into being. Bene? Are you doing this? You see you are all so frightened. That is the root of it. 你理解吗？拜托，先生。 你理解我的问题吗？ 你依附外物，你知道，你已经从理智上 或实际上观察到了依附的结果， 以及冲突、恐惧等等。 说“我将结束依附”，那是一种意志力的行为吗？ 或者你对依附有了一种深入的洞察？ 如果你对依附有了一种深入的洞察， 因为你看到了它的整个运动， 此时，依附就结束了。 而不是你依附于另外的某些事物。 你理解吗？ 你可能依附于那个人或那个观念， 然后放开了那个依附， 然后再依附于另一个人、另一个观念。 我们说的是终结 带来无尽心理冲突的所有依附。 你拥有对依附的洞察，从而结束它了吗？ 接下来会发生什么呢？ 当你结束某个东西——你理解吗？—— 当你停止喝酒，如果你喝酒的话， 或者当你停止抽烟， 或任何一件类似的事情，在生理上和心理上都停止， 会怎么样呢？ 先生们...... 你希望我告诉你们吗？ 你看，那就是危险之处。 那就是你怎样建立权威、依赖他人的。 然而，如果你亲自去发现， 当你彻底结束一种依附时， 那个受困于模式 和依附活动的 头脑所处的状态是什么。 头脑发生了什么呢？ 某个全新的事物产生了，不是吗？ 你已经打破了依附的模式， 因此自然就有某种不同于 这个模式的事物产生了。 对吗？ 你在这么做吗？ 你看，你们都如此害怕。 那就是依附的根源。 所以，我们必须审视什么是恐惧。
40:27 So we have to examine what is fear. You are interested in all this? Yes? Not casually, sitting under the trees on a lovely morning and looking at the leaves, the light on the leaves and so on, enjoying it, and those mountains behind. We are saying something very, very serious, you can't play with this kind of thing. Because it will radically transform your way of living. And if you don't want to be radically transformed don't listen to all this. Probably you are not, anyhow. But if you are serious you may be listening. So we are not entertaining you intellectually, emotionally, or romantically. This is a very, very serious matter of life. 你对所有这些感兴趣吗？是吗？ 不是随便地坐在树下，在一个美丽的早晨， 看着树叶、叶子上的光影等等， 欣赏它们以及后面的那些山峰。 我们在说一件非常非常严肃的事情， 你不能和这种事情闹着玩。 因为那将彻底转变你的生活方式。 而如果你不想彻底转变， 请不要听所有这些话。 很可能你无论如何都不想转变。 但如果你是认真的，你可能会倾听。 所以我们不是要 在智力上、情感上或以浪漫的方式取悦你。 这是生活中一件非常非常严肃的事情。 所以我们说过：
42:02 So we have said: desire, greed, attachment is part of our life, daily struggling, conflict, occasionally happy, life. And now, let's examine together, and I mean together, what is fear, why we are so frightened. And this problem of fear has not been solved at all though we have lived thousand, million years. We are still carrying on in the same old pattern of fear. So what is fear? Isn't one afraid of letting go of attachment? Whether the attachment to a person, belief, a concept: the communists have created a concept and if you talk to a communist, a card-carrying communist, he is afraid to let that pattern go, he won't think of anything anew. Right? Or talk to a very practising Catholic, or a Protestant or any Hindu, Buddhist, it is the same thing. They are afraid. Because in that pattern, in a conclusion, in a belief there is security, there is a sense of stability, strength. Whether that idea, that image, that concept be an illusion, that very illusion gives you security. In attachment there is a certain sense of well-being, safe. Right, sirs? 欲望、贪婪、依附是我们生活的一部分， 这种每天挣扎、冲突、偶尔开心的生活。 而现在，让我们一起探究——并且我说的是真的一起—— 什么是恐惧，为什么我们如此害怕。 而即使我们已经生活了几千、上百万年， 恐惧的问题丝毫没有解决。 我们仍然在同一种古老的恐惧模式中继续生活着。 那么恐惧是什么呢？ 难道你不怕放弃依附吗？ 不管是依附于一个人、一个信仰还是观念： 共产主义者制造了一种观念， 如果你与共产主义者、一个正式的共产主义者交谈， 他害怕失去模式， 他不愿重新思考任何事情。对吗？ 或者与一个非常虔诚的天主教徒、新教徒 或任何印度徒、佛教徒谈话，都是一样的情形。 他们害怕。 因为在那个模式中，在某个结论、某种信仰中， 存在着安全，有着稳定和力量感。 不管那个概念、意象、观念是不是一种幻觉， 正是那个幻觉给了你安全。 在依附中存在着某种幸福感、安全感。 对吗，先生们？ 我们不是在分析，
45:10 We are not analysing, we are merely observing the movement of fear which is totally different from analysis. I know there are a great many analysts here, they think I don't understand, I am a bit peculiar in this matter, rather conditioned, peculiar, rather crazy. I have met many of them, I know them. So we are not analysing, I want to make this perfectly clear. Because analysis implies the exercise of thought. Thought is partial, limited, because all knowledge is limited and always living within the shadow of ignorance. And analysis is a process of exercising knowledge that has been acquired, and operating from that knowledge. We are saying quite the contrary: observation is entirely different from analysis. Just to observe the nature of fear. So it becomes very important to understand what is observation, observation which is not - let me repeat it a thousand times - not analysis. 我们仅仅是在观察恐惧的运动， 那与分析完全不同。 我知道这里有非常多的精神分析师， 他们认为我不理解，认为我在这件事上有些特殊， 相当局限、古怪，相当疯狂。 我见过他们中的许多人，我知道他们。 所以我们不是在分析，我想把这点彻底说清楚。 因为分析意味着运用思想。 思想是局部的、受限的，因为所有的知识都是局限的， 并且总是活在无知的阴影之下。 分析是运用已经获得的知识， 并根据那个知识进行操作的过程。 而我们说的恰恰相反： 观察与分析完全不同。 仅仅去观察恐惧的本质。 所以“理解什么是观察”就变得十分重要， 观察不是 ——允许我重复一千遍——不是分析。 那么观察、去观察是什么呢？
47:16 So what is observation, to observe? To observe that thing without naming that thing because the moment you have named that thing as a tree you are observing it with a word, with a concept, with an image. Go into it, sir, with me for a moment. But to observe that thing without the word, if you can do it. And that is comparatively easy. But to observe psychologically your reactions, all that goes on inwardly, just to observe it without saying it is good, or bad, this is hate, this is wrong, this is right, without any movement of thought, just to observe. Right? So we are observing the reaction which we call fear. Fear that comes into being when you feel that it is necessary not to be attached, whatever it is. Then the immediate reaction is fear. Because in attachment you have found security, safety, a sense of protection, and, with the ending of that, there is this quivering of what is going to happen. Can I tell my wife, or my husband, or boy or whatever it is, I am not attached? What will she do, or he do? You understand what I am saying? 去观察那个事物而不给它命名， 因为在你把那个事物称作一棵树的瞬间， 你就是在带着一个词语、一个观念、一个意象来观察的。 先生，请与我一起深入探究一下。 仅仅去观察那个事物而不带着词语， 如果你能做到的话。而那是相当容易的。 只是观察你心理上的反应， 内在发生的所有那些事情，仅仅去观察它 而不说它是好是坏， 这是恨，这是错的，这是对的， 没有任何思想活动，仅仅去观察。 对吗？ 那么，我们要观察我们称为恐惧的那种反应。 恐惧产生于当你感觉没有必要 依附于任何东西之时。 那时立即的反应就是恐惧。 因为你从依附中找到了保障、安全， 一种受保护的感觉，而随着那些的结束， 就会有“将会发生什么”的疑惧。 我能告诉我的妻子、我的丈夫，或男朋友，或任何人， 我不依附吗？ 她或他将会做什么呢？ 你理解我所说的话吗？ 所以我们现在要一起检查……——观察，抱歉——
49:25 So we are now examining together... - observing, sorry - we are observing the nature and the movement of fear. That means your mind is free from all analytical conditioning. Right? Is it free? Or you hold that back - the analytical process - and you say, 'Well, I'll observe without analysis'. That can't be done. That's only playing games. To observe, the whole sense of analytical conditioning must end otherwise you cannot observe properly, accurately. Because all our education, all our conditioning is to analyse, see the cause, see the effect, try to change the effect and so on and so on. Only analysis is much more complex than that but I am putting it very briefly, rather insufficiently. But to observe is much more arduous than analysis. To observe your wife or your husband or your boy, or whatever it is without the image that you have created about that person. You understand my question? Each one of us has an image about the person with whom we live. And in that image there is security. But that image is not the actual person. How that image is created, whether that image can end is a different problem. Which is, that image is created by thought, by constant interaction, and with that image we live. And so the image and the actuality are two different things. Right? And so there is conflict, obviously. It's struggle between two people, man, woman, or wife and so on and so on, constant struggle, conflict between two people because they live on images. When there is no image perhaps there will be love, compassion, affection, care. 我们正在观察恐惧的本质和运动。 那意味着你的头脑摆脱了所有分析性的制约。 对吗？ 头脑自由了吗？ 抑或你抑制了那个——分析过程—— 并且你说，“好的，我将不带分析地观察”。 那是行不通的。 那只是在玩游戏。 若要观察，整个分析性的制约就必须全部结束， 否则你就不能恰当地、精确地观察。 由于我们所有的教育， 我们所有的制约都是去分析，看到原因， 看到结果，设法去改变结果等等等等。 仅仅分析就远比那复杂多了， 而我把它表达得很简要，相当不充分。 不过观察比分析费力多了。 去观察你的妻子，或你的丈夫， 或你的男朋友，或任何人， 而不带着你建立的关于那个人的意象。 你理解我的问题吗？ 我们每个人都拥有一个意象， 对与我们生活在一起的人抱有的意象。 而在那意象中存在着安全。 但意象并不是那个真实的人。 那个意象是如何制造的， 那个意象能否结束是另外一个问题。 那就是，那个意象是思想制造的， 通过持续的互动，而我们带着那个意象生活。 所以意象和事实是两件不同的事物。 对吗？所以很明显就会存在冲突。 那是两个人之间的斗争， 男人和女人，或妻子等等等等之间， 两个人之间持续的斗争、冲突， 因为他们凭着意象生活。 当不存在意象时，也许就会有爱、 慈悲、友爱和关怀。 所以让我们一起观察恐惧的本质。
53:29 So let us together observe the nature of fear. Why after millions and millions of years we have not resolved that problem. You understand my question, sir? Why? We have resolved many problems outwardly in the world, in the environment and so on but fear is not out there but in us. It is a psychological reaction and why haven't we, with all our cunning, with all our knowledge, with all our experience, resolved this problem of fear completely? Is it we have never looked at ourselves but always relied on others to tell us what we are? You understand? We have never looked at ourselves actually what we are. Not according to philosophers, psychologists, and the experts, because they themselves have never looked at themselves. They have ideas about themselves. Is it that we have never observed ourselves as we observe ourselves in a mirror? The mirror, if it is a clean mirror, then it doesn't distort, it shows exactly what you are, what your face is like. But to so observe ourselves without any distortion demands that you look without any motive, without any desire, without any pressure, just to watch, just to observe. So similarly, we are going to observe the movement of fear. 为什么在数百万年之后， 我们还是没有解决那个问题。 你理解我的问题吗，先生？为什么？ 我们已经解决了很多 外在世界、外在环境等等的问题， 但是恐惧不在外面而在我们内心。 它是一种心理反应， 我们有着所有的聪明、知识、经验，而为什么我们没能 彻底解决这个恐惧的问题呢？ 是因为我们从来不去看自己 而总是依赖别人告诉我们我们是什么吗？ 你理解吗？ 我们从来不去看看我们自己 实际上是什么样子。 不是依照哲学家、心理学家以及专家们的说法， 因为他们本身从来都没有看过他们自己。 他们拥有关于他们自己的观念。 是不是因为我们从来没有观察过自己， 就像我们在镜子中观察自己那样？ 镜子，如果那是一面干净的镜子， 那么它不会扭曲，它会展现你真实的样子， 你的脸看起来什么样。 但是若要如此没有扭曲地观察我们自己， 需要你看的时候 不带有任何动机、不带有任何欲望， 没有任何压力，仅仅去看、只是去观察。 类似地，我们要去观察 恐惧的运动。 我们大部分人都害怕。
56:42 Most of us are afraid. We are not talking about physical fears, that is also involved, losing a job, you know all that, not having employment, not having enough money, having had pain, physical pain, fear of having the pain again. So there are all the physical fears. And it is much more important to understand first the psychological fears because then perhaps we can do something about physical fears more sanely, rationally. Right? May we proceed? We are doing it together, you are not listening to me. We are together observing this extraordinary thing called fear which man has carried for a million years. And the speaker says it can be ended completely psychologically, all fear, if you have the capacity to observe this fear. Not direct it, not say, 'I mustn't have it, or I must have it, I must...' - you know, all that. 我们不是要谈论身体上的恐惧，那也包括其中， 失去工作，你知道所有那些， 没有职业，没有足够的钱， 有过身体上的疼痛而害怕再次疼痛。 所以存在身体上的所有那些恐惧。 而首先理解心理上的恐惧， 这更加重要， 因为之后也许我们就能更理智、更合理地 处理身体上的恐惧。 对吗？我们可以继续吗？ 我们要一起来探索，你不是仅仅在听我说话。 我们是在一起观察这个被称为恐惧的不可思议的东西， 人类已经背负它走过了一百万年。 而讲话者说 它可以从心理上 被彻底终结，所有的恐惧， 如果你拥有观察这个恐惧的能力。 不是指挥它，不是说，“我不应有它，或我必须有它， 我必须……”——你知道的，所有那些。 恐惧是什么？
58:24 What is fear? Is fear time? You understand? Time being that which has happened yesterday and that which might happen tomorrow - you understand? - which is time. Is that the cause of fear? Go into it slowly, let's go into it slowly. Because when we have finished observing fear this morning it must end so completely that you have no psychological fears at all. Then you are a rational, sane human being. 恐惧是时间吗？ 你理解吗？ 时间表示昨天发生的事情， 以及明天可能发生的事情 ——你理解吗？—— 那是时间。那是恐惧的起因吗？ 慢慢深入这个问题，让我们慢慢地深入探究它。 因为当我们今天上午结束对恐惧的观察时， 恐惧必须彻底终止， 以致于你再也没有一点心理上的恐惧。 然后你就是一个理性的、健全的人类了。 恐惧是一种思想的运动吗？
59:34 Is fear a movement of thought? You understand? That is, there has been fear in the past, there is the memory of that, the remembrance of that and the remembrance is a movement of thought. Right? Which again is the movement of knowledge. Right? And this knowledge is stored up in the brain and this knowledge is 'me' - right? When I say I am attached to you, I am attached to you because you are the audience and I derive great pleasure from it because I can talk to you, fulfil myself, all that nonsense. And that gives me a great sense of fulfilling. So thought has experienced this sense of power. That thought then says, 'If I let this go I am frightened, I am nothing'. Right? So is fear the cause of 'me', I? Go into it, sirs. This is a very serious thing we are saying. As long as there is this central entity with its self-centred activity, which is: desire, attachment, greed, you will always have fear. Right? 你理解吗？ 也就是说，我们过去曾有过恐惧， 有对于那个恐惧的记忆和回忆， 而回忆是思想的一种运动。 对吗？那又是知识的运动。 对吗？ 并且这些知识被存储在大脑里， 而这些知识就是“我”——对吗？ 当我说，我依附于你， 我依附于你因为你是听众， 而我从中获得了极大的快乐， 因为我可以和你谈话、满足我自己，所有那些无稽之谈。 而那给了我极大的满足感。 所以思想体验过这种力量感。 那个思想然后说，“如果我失去这个，我会害怕， 我就什么也不是了。”对吗？ 所以恐惧是“我”、自我的起因吗？ 深入进去，先生们。我们说的是一件非常严肃的事情。 只要存在这个中心体， 及其以自我为中心的活动，也就是：欲望、 依附、贪婪，你将总是心怀恐惧。 对吗？ 所以当你理解了所有这些， 不是那些话，不是那些概念，
1:02:28 So when you understand all this, not words, not ideas, not through the intellect - intellect has its place. This understanding is to see totally this whole fabric. That means to have immediate insight into the nature of fear. Then perhaps only there will be love. Fear and love cannot go together. You see what we have done? We know that very well, consciously or even unconsciously, we know that. But, as we haven't resolved that problem between human beings we say, 'Let's love God.' You understand, sirs, how you have transferred that which must exist between human beings - and that can only exist when there is no fear - we have transferred that love to some object created by thought and we are satisfied with that. Because it's very convenient, that. We can keep ourselves individual, self-centred, anxious, frightened, greedy, attached, and talk about love of God which is sheer irrational nonsense. 不是通过智力——智力有它自己的位置。 这种理解是指完全看到这整个结构。 那意味着立即洞察到恐惧的本质。 然后，也许只有此时才会有爱。 恐惧和爱无法同行。 你看看，我们都做了什么？ 我们在意识层面对这点了解得非常清楚， 或者甚至在无意识层面我们也知道这点。 但是，因为我们没有解决存在于 人类之间的那个难题，于是我们说，“让我们爱上帝吧”。 你理解吗，先生们，你是怎么转移了 必须存在于人类之间的那个东西 ——而只有当不存在恐惧的时候，那个东西才能存在—— 我们已经将那种爱转移到了一些思想制造的对象上， 而我们对此感到心满意足。 因为这非常便利，我们能使自己保持 独特、以自我为中心，以及焦虑、 害怕、贪婪、依附， 同时又谈论着上帝的爱， 那纯粹是不理智的无稽之谈。 所以在今天上午我们谈话的结尾，
1:04:38 So at the end of our talking together this morning as two friends, who are involved with this problem, who are concerned with the social order, which is disorder and seeing that there must be a transformation in oneself before society can be changed. They are talking over together this problem of desire, greed, attachment and fear. That's the pattern in which we have lived. In that pattern we have found great security. And in that pattern there is fear. And seeing that totally is to have an insight into it. And when you have an insight the whole problem is completely changed, broken. Can we say that to ourself, honestly, that we have broken this pattern of fear? When you walk out of this place, to be free of this thing. Then you become a rational, sane, human being. Unfortunately we are not that now. 作为与这个问题有关的、 关心这个实际上是失序的社会秩序的两个朋友， 看到在社会能够改变之前， 我们自身必须彻底改变。 他们是在共同探讨这个欲望、 贪婪、依附与恐惧的问题。 那是我们生活于其中的模式。 在那个模式中，我们找到了极大的安全。 而在那个模式中，存在着恐惧。 而完整地看到那些 就是拥有对它的洞察。 而当你拥有了洞察时，那整个问题 就彻底被改变、被打破了。 我们能诚实地对自己说， 我们已经打破了这个恐惧的模式吗？ 当你从这里走出去时，请从这件事中解脱出来。 那时你就变成了理性的、健全的人类。 不幸的是，我们现在还不是这样。 几点了，先生？ 问：差20分到1点。
1:07:02 What time is it, sir? 克：差20分到1点？抱歉让你们待了这么久。
1:07:05 Q:Twenty to one.
1:07:07 K:Twenty to one? Sorry to keep you so long.