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OJ81Q1 - 第一问答会
欧亥，美国，1981年5月5日



0:19 I'm afraid all the questions that we have been given cannot be answered, there are too many of them. And I hope you don’t mind if your particular question is not answered. Out of the collection, we've chosen some of these and we will go into them. 我担心我们收到的所有问题 不能都被回复，因为太多了。 我希望你不介意， 如果特定的问题没有被回答。 在所有问题之中，我们选了一些， 我们要探究它们。
0:50 What is one’s approach to a question? If all these questions were given to you, how would you answer them? What would be your approach, how would you listen to the question and what is the response to that question? Is it the answer, or the question itself? How would you deal with a question? 一个人如何处理一个问题？ 如果所有这些问题都摆在你面前， 你要如何回答它们？ 你要如何处理， 你要如何聆听这些问题， 对这些问题的回应又是怎样的？ 是答案还是问题本身？ 你要如何处理一个问题？
1:32 First Question: 'You talk about the ill-effects of conditioning. Yet many psychologists, philosophers and so on say that only through proper conditioning can man think and act clearly. What’s your answer?' 第一个问题：“你谈到制约的不良影响。 然而很多心理学家，哲学家等等说， 只有通过正确的制约， 人类才能清晰地思考和行动。 你的答案是什么？”
1:58 I'll read it again. 'You talk about the ill-effects of conditioning. Yet many psychologists, philosophers and so on say that only through proper conditioning can man think and act clearly. What’s your answer?' 我再读一遍。 “你谈到制约的不良影响。 然而很多心理学家，哲学家等等说， 只有通过正确的制约， 人类才能清晰地思考和行动。你的答案是什么？”
2:25 Now, how would you answer that question if it was put to you and you must have thought about it, how would you respond to that? What would be your approach to it? How do you listen to a question of this kind? Do you, after having read many, perhaps some philosophers and psychologists and books on all that kind of thing, you are ready to respond from your collected memory and answer that question? Or, putting aside what others have said, how would you answer it? 现在，你要如何回答这个问题， 如果它被提给你， 你必须思考它， 你要如何回应它？ 你要如何处理它？ 你要如何聆听这样一个问题？ 在读了这么多， 也许一些哲学家，心理学家， 还有各种相关的书籍， 你是否已经准备基于你收集的记忆来回应， 回答这个问题？ 或者，放下其他人说的， 你要如何回答它？
3:33 First, isn’t it obvious – I think it is – that all human beings throughout the world, after so many millions of years, are conditioned. That’s a fact. They are conditioned by their religions, by establishments of governments, by the economic condition, climate, food, clothes, by their family, by their education, and so on. All human beings, right through the world, are conditioned. That’s an obvious, acceptable, reasonable fact. And there are those philosophers and psychologists who say that you must accept this conditioning. You've heard about that, too. And they assert, some of them, that the conditioning can never be changed, the human condition can never be transformed, there can never be a mutation from this conditioning, and so make the best of it. And if you are a clever writer and have the gift of the tongue, you enlarge that, and you become famous. And we poor laymen accept the people who are clever, erudite and go on with their assertions. But if one can put all that aside and look at ourselves, how do we deal with this fact, which is that we are all conditioned? If you live in India, you are conditioned in a particular way – religion, superstition, ignorance, poverty, the climate, the food, the lack of space, overpopulation – and as you come along West, the same phenomenon is going on. The Christians are conditioned after 2,000 years by their society, their culture and so on. 首先，很显然——我认为—— 全世界所有的人类， 在经历过数百万年之后，都是被制约的。 这是一个事实。 他们被宗教， 政府， 经济情况， 气候，食物，衣服，家庭， 教育，等等制约。 全世界所有人类都是被制约的。 这是显然，能接受，合理的事实。 有那些哲学家，心理学家， 他们说你必须接受这种制约。 你也已经听过那些了。 他们中一部分人断言， 这种制约不可能被改变， 人类的制约不可能被转变， 不可能从制约中突变， 所以要充分利用它。 而如果你是一个聪明的作家， 有语言的天赋，你放大这一点， 你就变出名了。 而我们这些可怜的普通人接受那些聪明人， 精英等等，和他们的断言。 但是如果你把这些都放一边， 看看我们自己，我们如何处理这个事实， 也就是我们都是被制约的？ 如果你生活在印度，你被以一种特定的方式制约 ——宗教，迷信，无知，贫穷， 气候，食物，缺乏空间，人口过多—— 而当你来的西方，同样的现象也在发生。 两千年之后，基督徒被他们的社会， 他们的文化等等，所制约。
6:30 Philosophers and psychologists, apparently, do not investigate themselves. They have theories. They have experimented on pigeons, animals and from that they come to certain conclusions. But they never say, 'Look, I am conditioned, my conditioning is my religion, my society, my family, my name, the tradition, and see if I cannot possibly undo all that and discover if it is at all possible to free the mind from this conditioning'. Right? Now, can we do that together now? Do you understand? Am I making myself clear? 哲学家和心理学家，显然， 并没有探究他们自身。 他们有各种理论。他们在鸽子，动物身上做实验， 基于那些实验，他们得出特定的结论。 但他们从不说，“看，我是被制约的， 我的制约就是我的宗教，我的社会， 我的家庭，姓名和传统， 看看我是否可以从中解脱， 去发现，这是否有可能， 让意识从所有制约中解脱出来”。 对吗？ 现在，我们能一起这样做吗？ 你明白吗？我说清楚了吗？
7:36 We are conditioned to live in America, you are conditioned by an affluent society, by this enormous drive for pleasure, entertainment and the fanciful religion and romantic East with their gurus and all that stuff. We are, unfortunately, conditioned. Now, can we discover, become aware of this conditioning? I am conditioned – suppose. I was born in India with all the nonsense that goes on around religion, and they were very, very orthodox at the time the speaker was born, tremendously so-called religious, a Brahmanic class with their tradition and so on. Now, if one is aware of that, can one actually free oneself from all that heavy... from two, three, five thousand years of so-called civilisation? 生活在美国，我们被制约了， 被流行社会， 被强烈的对快感，娱乐的追求所制约， 被迷幻的宗教，浪漫的东方 和他们的大师，等等所制约。 很不幸，我们是被制约的。 现在，我们能发现，觉察到这种制约吗？ 我被制约——假设，我生在印度， 带着所有那些宗教的废话， 在演讲者出生时，它们是非常正统的， 非常所谓的宗教， 婆罗门阶层，带着他们的传统等等。 现在，如果一个人觉察到这一切， 它可以真正的，将自己从这些重担中解脱出来吗 从两千，三千，五千年的所谓的文明中（解脱出来吗）？
9:21 That’s the problem the questioner asks, The questioner says, 'Can I be free from all this?' Who is speaking the truth? The philosophers, the psychologists, the people who assert that you cannot possibly change the conditioning of man? Human nature can be modified but it can never radically be transformed. If you accept that, which is very convenient and happy, you can trot along for the rest of your life, living in a small circle of conditioning and say, 'That is inevitable'. But if one goes into it much more deeply, if one wants to find out what the conditioning is, and whether it is possible to really, very deeply, at the very root of this conditioning, be free of all that. That’s the question. 这就是提问者问的问题， 提问者说，”我能摆脱那一切吗？“ 谁说的是真理？ 哲学家，心理学家， 那些断言不可能 改变人类制约的人？人类的本质可以被调整， 但是它不能根本上转变。 如果你接受了这一点，这是非常方便和令人快乐的， 你可以在你的余生中奔跑， 生活在一个受制约的小圈子里， 然后说，”这是不可避免的“。 但是如果你更深入地探究它， 如果你想搞清楚制约是什么， 是否有可能真正的，深刻的， 在这个制约的最根部， 摆脱这一切。 这就是问题所在。
10:55 Now, how does one set about it? I see I'm conditioned. What do we mean by that word ‘conditioning’? The brain being very, very pliable, subtle, has an extraordinary capacity to absorb, hold, confine itself to a certain limitation, feeling that it is safe in that limitation, which is really the conditioning. I hope you are following. Am I going too fast? And it feels safe in that conditioning, secure, protected and it is unwilling to let go and look. Unwilling because of the long habit, the many thousand years of being confined, limited to a particular experience, knowledge, so it feels completely secure in that conditioning. And it accepts what the psychologists, the philosophers, the other people say, 'Live with it. Be happy in it. Make the best of it.' Better bathrooms, better relationship, always a little better, a little more convenient. And all the psychologists help us to be a little more happy, a little more adjustable, a little more accepting what this conditioning involves. 现在，一个人要如何处理它？ 我看到我是被制约的。 我们所谓的”制约“这个词意味着什么？ 头脑是非常，非常灵活，微妙的， 它有惊人的吸收的能力， 保持，将它自身置于一种特定的限制中， 它在那种局限中感到安全， 这就是真正的制约。 我希望你跟上了。我讲的太快了吗？ 而它在那种制约中感到安全， 安全感，被保护的感觉，因此它不愿意放手去看。 不愿意，因为长时间的习惯， 被限制了几千年， 受限于特定的经验，知识， 所以它在那种制约中感到彻底的安全。 并且他接受了心理学家，哲学家， 还有其他人说的，”和它（制约）生活在一起。 对它感到开心。充分利用它。“ 更好的洗漱间，更好的关系， 总是更好一点，更方便一点。 所有的心理学家都帮我们变开心一点， 变适应一点， 变得更接受这种制约一点。
13:20 Now, if one says, 'I really want to find out, not what the psychologists, others say, but I really want to find out if this conditioning can ever be resolved.' First, what are the results of this conditioning? What happens to a mind, or to a brain that is conditioned, before we can say, 'I will be free of conditioning'? Please, are we meeting each other or shall we go on with this? You are doing it yourself. I am not doing it for myself. This is not group analysis, or group therapy, all that kind of nonsense, but we are trying to find out whether it is possible to free the brain from its heavy conditioning. When one is conditioned, when the brain is conditioned, that conditioning brings various forms of conflict. I am conditioned as a Hindu, suppose, or a Catholic, or a Protestant, or whatever it is. Naturally, the brain being so conditioned becomes atrophied. Right? Are we following each other? Have you noticed if you keep on repeating that you are a Christian, that you must behave this way, that you must be like that, that there is only one saviour and so on, so on, this very repetition, this constant acceptance of something unreal, which has no factual actuality, then the brain must inevitably become more and more atrophied? Right? That’s so obvious, you can see them all. When you are constantly repeating, ‘I am a British’, you know, or ‘I am Catholic’, I am this, I am that, then, naturally, the brain will inevitably become mechanical, will inevitably become narrow, and gradually wither, become atrophied. That’s what is going on. Right? 现在，如果一个人说，”我真的想发现， 不是心理学家，或者其他人说的， 而是我真的想发现， 这种制约是否能被消解。“ 首先，这种制约的结果是什么？ 在我们说”我要摆脱制约“之前， 受制约的意识或者头脑，发生了什么？ 请注意，我们是在一起探究这一切吗？ 你要自己做到它。我不会为自己做到它。 这不是小组分析或者小组治疗， 或者其他那些废话，而是我们尝试去发现 是否有可能将头脑从它沉重的制约中解脱出来。 当一个人被制约时，当头脑被制约时， 这种制约带来各式各样的冲突。 假设我们被制约，成为一名印度人， 或者天主教徒，新教徒，或者其他什么。 自然的，被如此制约的头脑变萎缩了。 对吗？我们跟上彼此了吗？ 你是否注意过，如果你不断重复你是一名基督徒， 你必须这样举止，你必须像那样， 只有一个救世主，等等， 这种重复，这种对某种不真实事物的不断的接受， 其中没有真实性， 然后头脑必然变得，越来越萎缩？ 对吗？这很显然，你可以看到这一切。 当你不断的重复，”我是英国人“，你知道， 或者”我是天主教徒“，我是这个，我是那个， 那么，自然，头脑不可避免地变得机械化， 不可避免地变得狭窄， 渐渐地枯萎，变萎缩。 这就是正在发生的事。对吗？
16:35 That's one of the results of conditioning. There are many other factors of this conditioning, which are separation, division, where there is division, there must be conflict. Please, we are examining ourselves, looking at our conditioning and investigating that conditioning. The speaker is not investigating but you're doing the investigation, only I'm verbalising it. Right? Let’s be clear on that point. You're not listening to the speaker and so accepting what he's saying but you are actually looking at your own conditioning – if you are aware of it, if you want to go into it. If not, it’s all right. But, if you're enquiring into it, you can observe the results and the consequences of this conditioning. 这就是制约的一个结果。 这种制约还有其他许多因素， 也就是分别，分裂， 有分裂，就必然有冲突。 请注意，我们在一同探究我们自己， 看着我们的制约，调查这种制约。 不是演讲者在调查，而是你在调查， 我只是在语言化它。对吗？让我们弄清这一点。 你不是在听演讲者，然后接受他说的东西， 而是你真正地看着你自己的制约 ——如果你觉察到它，如果你想探究它。如果不是，那也好。 但是，如果你想探究它， 你可以看到制约的后果。
17:52 Then the next question is, is it possible to be free of all this? Why? Why should one be free of it? Because the very examination and the reason, sanity, points out one cannot live constantly in a narrow, little groove, which emphasises naturally the egotistic, egocentric activity. Right? So what is one to do? I am conditioned – if I am – and I realise the consequences of it. Then, is it possible to be free of all that conditioning? Is it possible bit by bit? You understand? Little by little. That may take me for the rest of my life. I may be free of it just as I'm dying. That’s not very amusing. That has no meaning. So I ask, is it possible to be aware without any prejudice, without any choice, just be aware of my conditioning? And then, is it possible, not allowing time as a factor to dissolve this conditioning? Not allowing time, you understand? Time being, 'I will do it gradually.' So, is it possible to look at this conditioning without the time element at all? 那么，下一个问题是，有可能摆脱这一切吗？ 为什么？一个人为什么要摆脱它？ 因为这种探究，理性，理智， 指出来，一个人不能一直活在， 狭窄小小的沟槽里， 这自然会强调自我，自我中心的行为。 对吗？所以，一个人要做什么？ 我受到制约——如果我是——而我认识到了它的后果。 那么，有可能摆脱所有的制约吗？ 有可能一点一点来吗？你明白吗？ 一点点来。这也许要耗尽我余生的时间。 我也许只有在快死时，才能解脱。 这并不有趣。那没有意义。 所以我问，有可能觉察， 而没有任何偏见，没有任何选择地， 只是觉察我的制约吗？ 然后，有可能， 不允许时间作为消解这种制约的一个因素吗？ 不允许时间，你明白吗？ 时间就是，”我会渐渐地做到它。” 所以，有可能看着这种制约， 而没有任何时间的因素吗？
20:29 This is not something cranky, some new fad, something you have to accept. But you can see, reason points this out. Reason says, you are conditioned, and reason points out that if you take time over it, many years, you'll have other forms of conditioning going on. Right? So there is only one act that must absolutely dissolve the totality of the conditioning. Right? I'm putting this question to you. Look at it first. Don’t say, it's not possible, and brush it aside. 这不是什么疯狂的事，不是什么新的时尚， 不是你要接受的什么事。但是你能看到， 理智指出了这一点。 理智说，你被制约， 如果你需要时间来处理它，需要很多年， 那你就会一直有其他形式的制约。 对吗？所以，只有一个行动，它必须能消解 整个制约。对吗？ 我把问题交给你。 首先看看它。不要说，这不可能， 然后把它放到一旁。
21:38 I am born as a Protestant, or a Catholic, or I have a particular conditioning with regard to nationalism, or I am conditioned to the pursuit of only pleasure at any price – which is what is happening in this country, entertainment. Now, can I, not allowing time, which is asking a tremendous question, you understand? Because our brain which has evolved through time, through millions and millions of years, we have come to this point – which is a great tragedy, look at ourselves – and the brain has evolved in time. And we are asking something, we are demanding the brain to act totally differently. Are we following each other in this? Which is reasonable, you understand? The question may be unreasonable, the question being not to allow time, that may be unreasonable. But we see, if we allow time, there are other forms of factors entering which will also condition. So the mind can never be free from conditioning if the mind allows time to interfere with the dissolution of conditioning. Is this clear? So, the brain must understand this, that it has evolved through time. And it's being challenged, a crisis is being brought to it, saying you must be free of time. And that says, 'That's impossible'. That is your natural reaction, isn’t it? 我生来是一个新教徒，或者天主教徒， 或者我有某种国家主义的制约， 或者我被制约习惯不计任何代价追求快乐 ——这就是在这个国家正在发生的，娱乐。 现在，我可以，不允许时间， 这是一个非凡的问题，你明白吗？ 因为我们的头脑通过时间进化， 通过数百万年的时间， 我们变成了现在这样——如此巨大的悲剧， 看看我们自己——头脑通过时间进化。 而我们问， 我们要求头脑完全不同地运作。 我们跟上彼此了吗？ 这很合理，你明白吗？ 这个问题也许是不合理的， 这个问题不允许时间，这也许是不合理的。 但是我们看到，如果我们允许时间， 就会出现其他形式的制约的因素。 所以头脑永远不能摆脱制约， 如果意识允许时间来干涉， 制约的消解。这一点清楚了吗？ 所以，头脑必须理解这一点， 也就是它通过时间进化。 而它被这个带给它的危机挑战了， 危机说你必须摆脱时间。 而它（头脑）说，”这是不可能的“。 这就是你本能的反应，对吗？
24:30 Can we go on from there? I can go on, but – you understand? See what takes place when the future is now. The future is time, isn’t it? To-morrow is time. And if there is no tomorrow, I have to act so completely now, or invite the future now. I wonder if you follow all this. So that the brain has to face this fact that, though it has been trained, educated, conditioned, shaped in the process of time, and now it's facing a challenge which says, 'Think or act totally differently, which is not of time.' I wonder if you see all this. Are we asking this too much? Qu’est-ce que vous dites? I mean, what do you say? 我们可以从这一点继续吗？ 我可以继续，但是——你理解了吗？ 当未来就是现在时，看看会发生什么。 未来就是时间，对吗？明天是时间。 而如果没有明天， 我们现在就必须完整地行动， 或者现在就邀请未来。 我想知道你们跟上了吗。 所以，头脑要面对这个事实， 也就是，虽然它在时间的过程中被训练， 教育，制约，塑造， 现在，它在面对一个挑战，它说， “彻底不同地思考或行动，也就是没有时间。” 我想知道你是否看到了这一切。我们问的太多了吗？ 你在说什么？我的意思是，你在说什么？
26:14 So that is the real question. The philosophers and the psychologists have said, accept human conditioning, modify it, give time, so that it becomes more and more cultured through knowledge, and knowledge becomes all important, knowledge is time, because knowledge means accumulation, which means time. I don’t know if you follow all this. And we accept all this because it is very convenient, very natural, apparently very natural. And also it is very convenient, comforting that I have many years, some years. Now, when the brain is challenged that it is not through time that the condition can be dissolved, then it says, 'It is impossible' and it is stuck there. That’s what is happening to you now. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact. Right? Can we go on from there a little bit? The speaker can go on verbally, explain, but that's of no value, unless you yourself actually perceive it, see the truth of this fact that if you allow time, time is not a factor that can dissolve or uncondition the mind. When the mind is conditioned, the consequences are what we live with – our struggle, conflict, misery which is part of our conditioning. 所以，这才是真正的问题。 哲学家和心理学家说， 接受人类的制约，调整它， 花时间，所以它变得越来越文明， 通过知识，而知识变成了最重要的， 知识就是时间， 因为知识意味着积累，积累意味着时间。 我不知道，你跟上了吗。 而我们接受了这一切，因为它太方便了， 太自然了，显然，这很自然。 而且它也很方便，很舒适， 我还有很多很多年。 现在，当头脑被挑战， 不通过时间，制约就能被消解， 然后它说，“这不可能”，然后它卡在了那。 这就是现在你们身上发生的事。 我不知道，你是否觉察到这个事实。 对吗？我们可以从这里再继续一点点吗？ 演讲者可以从词语上继续，解释， 但是这没有价值，除非你自己真的看到它， 看到这个事实的真相，也就是，如果你允许时间， 时间不是能消解或者让头脑摆脱制约的因素。 当头脑被制约时，后果就是 我们生活在——争斗，冲突，痛苦中， 这就是我们的制约的一部分。
28:29 So, can the brain be free, able to look at this problem, this challenge, without any fear, without any choice, face it? Then the brain becomes extraordinarily active, doesn’t it? I wonder if you notice it. You have broken the tradition. And then one asks, 'What is freedom then?' You understand? The freedom that we have taken for granted, to do what we like to do, that is what we call freedom, right? Especially in this country, we're all free to do what we like, and immediately, if possible. The consequences of that, you know what it is. That’s not freedom, obviously. So, freedom then means the brain being free of the conditioning and is incapable of thinking in terms of time. Just a minute. Go into it, slowly. 所以，头脑可以自由，有能力看着这个问题， 这个挑战，而没有任何恐惧，没有任何选择，面对它吗？ 然后头脑就变得极其活跃，对吗？ 我不知道你们是否注意到了这一点。 你已经打破了传统。 然后一个人问，“那么自由是什么？” 你明白吗？ 我们为之争取的自由，去做我们想做的事， 这就被我们称为自由，对吗？ 尤其是在这个国家，我们都自由地做我们想做的事， 立刻做，如果可能的话。 你知道那一切的后果是什么。 显然，这不是自由。 所以，自由意味着头脑摆脱了制约， 没有能力以时间的方式思考。 就一分钟，探究它，慢慢来。
30:25 I need time to learn how to drive a car. I need time to learn a language, a month, six weeks, three months. I need time to learn any skill. There I need time. But I discover that time, psychologically, is not necessary. The time has conditioned us. Right? I wonder if you see all this. And the question of time, – both the physical as well as psychological time – the physical time is necessary, to go from here to where one lives. But time as the future, of me getting better and better and better, me trying to become somebody, psychologically, is it a fact? Or is it an illusion which thought has created? 'I am not happy, but I will be happy. Heaven is in that hole and, ultimately, I will go there.' All the evangelistic promises, you know, all that is going on in this country. 我需要时间来学习如何开车。 我需要时间学一门语言，一个月，六星期，三个月。 我需要时间来学任何技能。 这里我需要时间。 但是我发现，心理时间是不必要的。 这种时间制约了我们。对吗？ 我想知道你们是否看到了所有这些。 而时间的问题， ——物理以及心理的时间—— 物理的时间是必要的，从这里去我们住的地方。 但是作为未来的时间， 我变得越来越好， 心理上我尝试变成某人，这是事实吗？ 或者这是思想创造的幻觉？ “我不开心，但是我会变开心。 天堂就在那个洞里，最终，我会去那里。” 所有福音许诺的东西， 你知道这个国家里发生的一切。
32:24 So, can the brain be free of conditioning as time? You understand my question? And the philosophers and the psychologists say, 'That’s impossible!' And there have been specialists having written books, published, sell it, they become famous and we, laymen, accept it. We accept the specialists. Right? That's one of our conditionings. 所以，头脑能摆脱时间的制约吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 哲学家和心理学家说， “这不可能！” 这些专家，写了书， 出版，销售，他们变得有名，而我们这些普通人，接受它。 我们接受了那些专家。对吗？ 这就是我们的制约之一。
33:17 So, when you look at all this, sensitively aware of what the others are saying, and sensitively aware of one’s own conditioning, and seeing that time is a factor that really shapes the brain to a particular conditioning. It has taken 2,000 years for Christians to accept all that tremendous propaganda which is going on now, and the Hindus with their propaganda of 3,000, 4,000 years. It has taken time. The constant repetition, 'Jesus is the saviour', and they have their own pattern in India, in Japan, in China. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Obviously, the brain becomes atrophied and probably that is what is happening to humankind. Right? 所以，当你看到这一切， 敏感地觉察到其他人说的， 敏感的觉察到自己的制约， 看到时间是， 按某种特定制约塑造大脑的因素。 它花了两千年让基督徒接受这一切， 现在进行的大量的宣传， 印度教徒带着他们三千，四千年的宣传。 这都需要时间。 不停地重复，“基督是救世主”， 在印度也有他们自己的模式， 在日本，在中国，重复，重复，重复。 显然，头脑变得萎缩了， 可能这就是人类身上发生的事。 对吗？
34:35 Sorry one has taken so long about one question. 抱歉我花了这么久谈论一个问题。
34:47 Second Question: 'You speak sometimes of the brain and also of the mind. Is there a difference between them? And, if so, what is their relationship?' 第二个问题：“有时你提到头脑还有意识。 这二者之间有什么不同吗？ 如果有，他们的关系是什么？”
35:03 'You speak sometimes of the brain and also of the mind. Is there a difference between them? And, if so, what is their relationship?' “有时你提到头脑还有意识。 这二者之间有什么不同吗？ 如果有，他们的关系是什么？”
35:24 How would you answer this question? You see, you're all, you are learning apparently from me. Please, don’t. Don’t, please, learn from another, especially in psychological, and so-called spiritual matters. You have to be a light to yourself and that light cannot be lit by any other. So the speaker is not teaching you. We're observing our own minds and our own hearts, our own existence, our daily life as we live it. 你要如何回答这个问题？ 你看，显然，你们都是要从我这里学习。 请不要这样。 请不要学习另一个人， 尤其是在心理及所谓的精神领域。 你必须成为自己的光， 那种光不能被其他人点亮。 所以，演讲者不是在教育你。 我们是在观察我们自己的意识以及心理， 我们自己的存在，我经历的日常生活。
36:23 So, the questioner says, 'What is the difference between the mind and the brain? What is the relationship between the two?' Is there something separate as the mind apart from the brain? Or there is only the brain which has created the mind – you understand? – and then tries to establish a relation between the two? Which is a game it can play, everlastingly. Do you follow all this? Right? That is, the brain realises its limitation because it is conditioned, everlastingly in conflict, etc. Thought is the instrument of the brain, so it invents a mind, a super mind, super consciousness, and then tries to establish a relationship between the two. I don’t know if you are following the game it plays. 所以，提问者说，“意识和 头脑有什么不同？ 二者的关系是什么？” 有和头脑分离的意识吗？ 或者只有头脑， 头脑创造了意识——你明白吗？—— 然后尝试在二者之间建立关系？ 这是一个可以无穷无尽地玩下去的游戏。 你跟上所有这些了吗？对吗？ 也就是，头脑意识到它的局限， 因为它是受制约的， 永远处于冲突之中，等等。 思想是头脑的工具， 所以它发明了意识，超级意识， 然后尝试在二者之间建立关系。 我不知道你是否跟上了这个头脑玩的游戏。
37:49 So, we are asking, is there a mind, which is not brought about by thought as a comforting idea, apart from the brain? You are following all this? Most of us, I'm afraid, are so emotional and react so quickly that we don’t use reason. Somehow, reason seems to be wrong. So, we're understanding the limitation of reason first and see if we can’t go beyond it. Right? Does one see the limitation of reason? However reasonable it is, it is limited, obviously. First, so, we must exercise reason, sanity, not just be emotional about any matter. 所以，我们问， 存在不是由思想带来的， 作为一个头脑之外的，令人舒适的观点的意识吗？ 你跟上了吗？ 我们中的绝大多数，我担心，都是情绪化的， 我们反应的太快，没有用理智。 有时，理智似乎是错的。 所以，我们首先要理解理智的局限， 然后看我们能否超越它。对吗？ 你看到理智的局限了吗？ 显然无论多么有理性，它都是受限的。 所以，首先，我们必须锻炼理性，理智， 不只是对任何事都情绪化。
39:08 So, there is the brain which is conditioned, whose instrument is thought. Thought is brought about through various sensations, experiences, knowledge, memory, thought, action. That is the chain the brain lives with, or lives in that chain, within that area. And knowledge can never be complete, knowledge must always go with ignorance, always. There's no complete knowledge about anything. So, man realises this and projects an idea of God 'God is omnipotent', you know, I wonder if you are following all this. 所以，头脑是受限的， 头脑的工具是思想。 思想是通过各种感官诞生的， 各种经验，知识，记忆，思想，行动。 这是头脑生活的链条， 或者（头脑）生活在那个区域里。 知识永远是不完整的， 知识必然总是伴随着无知。 没有关于任何事的完整的知识。 所以，人类认识到这一点，然后投射出上帝的观点， ”上帝是全能的“，你知道的。 我想知道你是否跟上了这一切。
40:06 So, is there a mind apart from the brain? And is the brain infinite? The brain is infinite if it is free from all conditioning. Obviously. Am I merely spinning a lot of words? Are we following each other? Are you doing it for yourself? As long as the brain is conditioned in any shape, or at any level, at any depth, it must be limited. And when that limitation, restriction, confinement, condition is totally eliminated, disappears completely, the brain is infinite. This is reason, isn’t it? I wonder if you are following all this? 所以，有头脑之外的意识吗？ 头脑是无限的吗？ 如果头脑从所有制约中解脱出来，它就是无限的。 显然如此。 我只是谈到了很多词语吗？ 我们在共同探索吗？你在为你自己这样做吗？ 只要头脑被制约成任何形式，在任何层面， 任何深度（被制约），它都必然是受限的。 当这种局限，限制，约束，制约， 彻底消除时，彻底消失， 头脑就是无限的。 这很合理，是吗？ 我想知道你们是否跟上了？
41:38 Questioner: I don’t quite follow that… (inaudible) 提问者：我没有跟上……（听不清）
41:49 K: Sir, the capacity to perceive wholly, holistic perception, is not possible if the brain is limited if the brain is prejudiced. All right. Let’s put it much more simply. If you are prejudiced, your thinking is always limited. And this prejudice is the result of one’s conditioning. Right? And that conditioning limits the capacity of the brain. If I am a surgeon for the rest of my life, I have spent ten years in the world of medicine, surgery and I have specialised in that – right? – my brain is limited. It cannot have a holistic perception. Even the scientists who talk about holistic perception, if they are conditioned, which is fear, nationality, jealousy and all the rest of it, as most of them are, their brain is limited. Right? And therefore they are incapable of holistic perception though they write about it. You understand all this? So, the holistic perception is possible only when there is the total elimination of conditioning. And man says that's not possible. You follow? Somebody comes along and says it is possible, if you go very carefully, step by step – you understand? – understand it very deeply. 克：先生，如果头脑是受限的， 是有偏见的，完全地觉察的能力， 整体的觉察，就是不可能的。 是的。让我们简单一点。 如果你是有偏见的，你的思想总是受限的。 这种偏见就是一个人的制约的产物。对吗？ 这种制约限制了头脑的能力。 如果我一生都是一名外科大夫， 我在医学，手术的世界里花了十年， 我已经是那个领域的专家——对吗？——我的头脑就是受限的。 它不能整体的观察。 即使谈论整体观察的科学家， 如果他们是局限的，例如恐惧， 国家主义，嫉妒，等等， 他们中绝大多数，他们的头脑都是受限的。对吗？ 因此，他们不能整体的观察， 虽然他们会写到这一点。 你明白吗？ 所以，只有彻底地消除制约， 整体的观察才有可能。 而人类说那是不可能的。你明白吗？ 有人过来说，这是可能的， 如果你仔细地，一步一步地走——你明白吗？—— 深刻地理解它。
44:14 So, the mind – this will become rather difficult. The brain, as it is now, is limited by its own conditioning, by its own desire to be completely safe, secure, in relationship, in job – secure. Because it feels it can function only when there is complete security. That is, if I am a first-class surgeon and I'm secure in that, the brain functions happily. You understand? Of course, this is reason. So, the brain is limited in its action. 所以，意识——这很难。 头脑，现在是局限的， 被它自己的局限，被它自身想要彻底安全的欲望， 安全，关系中，工作上——安全（所局限）。 因为它只有感到彻底的安全时， 才能工作。 也就是，如果我是一名一流的外科大夫， 我就是安全的，头脑就能快乐地工作。 你明白吗？当然，这是合理的。 所以，头脑在它的行动中是受限的。
45:30 And is it possible to perceive something holistically apart from the brain? You understand? This becomes rather… 有可能完整地观察， 某些头脑之外的东西吗？ 你明白吗？这相当
45:45 Q: (Inaudible) 问：（听不清）
45:47 K: No, no, no. No, sir. This is a little more complex than that. Have you ever perceived anything wholly? Please, investigate it a little bit. To perceive something wholly is to not let the word, the image, the symbol interfere with perception. Right? Let’s begin with that. Can we look at a tree – that – without calling it a tree? Right? We can. Because the word ‘tree’ is not that. We have used the word ‘tree’ to symbolise, or we have used the word ‘tree’ to communicate a certain object. And so our brain is conditioned by words. I wonder… Right? So, can one be free of the word to look? That's fairly easy, to look at that without the word, that is fairly easy. But to look at ourselves without the word, is much more complex because we live by words: 'I am an American, I am a Catholic' – word, and the content of that word. The word, by itself, means nothing, but thought has given the content to that word. I wonder if you follow all this. 克：不，不。不是的，先生。 这比那个要复杂一些。 你曾经整体地观察过什么东西吗？ 请一点点探究它。 整体地观察是不让词语， 意象，符号干扰观察。 对吗？让我们从这一点开始。 我们可以看着那棵树，而不称它为树吗？ 对吗？我们可以。 因为”树“这个词不是那颗树。 我们用”树“这个词去符号化， 或者我们用”树“这个词去交流某个东西。 所以，我们的头脑被词语所制约。 我想知道……对吗？ 所以，我们可以摆脱词语去看吗？ 这很简单， 看而不带词语，这很简单。 但是不带词语地看我们自己，就复杂多了， 因为我们依靠词语生活： “我是美国人，我是天主教徒”——词语， 还有词语的内容。 词语本身没有什么意义， 但是思想赋予了词语内容。 我想知道你们跟上了吗？
48:22 So, to perceive something holistically, that is, to perceive without time, is to have a mind that’s global. To see humanity as a whole, not 'I am identified with humanity', which is silly. But to see humanity with all its struggle, pain, anxiety, misery, joy, pleasure, the travail that human beings go through, as a human whole. I think that is part of the mind. The holistic perception is the mind. I won’t go much more deeply. That's enough for the moment. 所以，整体地观察某事， 也就是没有时间地观察， 也就是拥有全球性的头脑。 把人类看成一个整体， 不是“我和人类相认同”，这太愚蠢了。 而是看到人类和他所有的挣扎，痛苦，焦虑，苦难， 快乐，快感，以及作为一个人， 作为人类经历的那些琐碎。 我认为这是意识的一部分。 完整地观察就是意识。 我不想太深入。之后会有充足的时间。
49:33 So, the relationship between the mind and the brain can only take place when the brain is equally infinite, which is when it is free from its conditioning. 所以，只有当头脑是无限的， 从它自身的制约中解脱出来时， 头脑和意识才有关系。
49:56 Third Question: 'I have been deeply hurt in childhood. In spite of trying to understand what happened, that hurt remains. What do I do?' 第三个问题：“我在童年时被深深地伤害过。 虽然尝试去理解发生了什么，伤害仍然存在。 我要做什么？”
50:18 'I have been deeply hurt in childhood. In spite of trying to understand what happened, that hurt remains. What do I do?' ”我在童年时被深深地伤害过。 虽然尝试去理解发生了什么，伤害仍然存在。 我要做什么？”
50:38 Are you asking me what to do? Rather, let’s find out what to do, together. Most people, from their childhood, even now as they grow up and mature, old age, they get hurt. You all must be hurt. Aren’t you all hurt? Some are aware of their hurt, others are not. What is it that is hurt? What are the consequences of that hurt? And whether it is possible not to be hurt at all, at any time? Or, when one is hurt, is it possible to be so free of that hurt and discover never to be hurt at all? You understand? Are we all working together, or am I working and you are just listening? I hope not, because there is no fun in that. 你在问我要做什么吗？ 还是，让我们一起去发现要做什么。 绝大部分人，从童年起，甚至直到成年， 老年，都在受伤害。 你必然被伤害过。你没被伤害过吗？ 有一些人觉察到了他们受的伤害，其他人没有。 被伤害的是什么？ 伤害的后果是什么？ 是否有可能在任何时候，都完全不被伤害？ 或者，当一个人受伤时，是否有可能摆脱那种伤害， 并发现（什么是）绝不受伤？你明白吗？ 我们在一起工作吗？ 还是我在工作，而你只是在听？ 我希望不是这样，因为那其中没有乐趣。
52:10 So, together, let’s examine these three things. What is it that is hurt? And what are the consequences of that hurt? And, if one is aware of that hurt, what is one to do? And do we see the consequences of the hurt? Right? First, what is it that is hurt, when I say to myself, 'I am hurt'? It happens in childhood, a harsh word, a gesture, a cruel look, and in this modern world, as you must know, thousands and thousands of children are leaving their homes, running away, becoming prostitutes because at home they are beaten, ill-treated, scolded. You follow? The misery of all that. They are all deeply hurt. And in school they are hurt because they have been compared with somebody who is more clever, better marks, better position, first-class examination, 'you don’t pass as well as the other' – you are hurt. 所有，让我们一起探究这些事。 被伤害的是什么？ 那种伤害的后果是什么？ 如果一个人觉察到那种伤害， 他要做什么？ 我们看到那种伤害的后果了吗？ 对吗？ 首先，当我对自己说，“我被伤害了”时， 是什么受伤了？ 它发生在童年，一个严厉的词， 一个姿势，一个残忍的眼神， 在这个现代世界，你必然知道， 成千上万的孩子正在离开他们的家庭， 逃离，变成妓女， 因为在家里他们被打了， 被虐待，辱骂。你明白吗？ 那一切的痛苦。 他们被深深地伤害了。 在学校中，他们被伤害， 因为他们被拿来和更聪明的学生比较， 更好的成绩，更好的位置，一级考试， “你没能像其他人一样通过考试”——你就受伤了。
54:27 So, this process of hurt goes on right through life, not just in childhood. When you get married, your wife says something to hurt you, or you say something to her, it hurts her. So life becomes a process of deep hurt. See the tragedy of all this, what we are doing to ourselves, God! 所以，这个伤害的过程持续了整个一生， 不只是在童年。 当你结婚了，你的妻子说了什么伤害了你， 或者你说了什么伤害了她。 所以生命变成了一个深深的受伤的过程。 看看这其中的悲剧，我们对自己做了什么。 上帝！
55:06 And the consequence of that hurt is that we build a wall around ourselves never to be hurt more, so get frightened, withdraw, isolated, and from that isolation act, which becomes more and more neurotic. And there are all the people who are trying to help you not to be neurotic and so on. So what is one to do? From childhood you are hurt, the parents are busy, irritated, tired, bad relationship between them, they want to fulfil in sex, or this, or some kind of rot that goes on in their relationship, and they take it out on the children. You have seen all this. The foreman scolds the worker and so on. 那种伤害的结果， 就是我们围绕自己构建了一堵墙， 绝不再被伤害，所以变得恐惧，退缩，孤立， 从那种孤立行动，就会变得越来越神经质。 还有所有那些尝试去帮助你， 不要变神经质的人，等等。 所以一个人要做什么？ 从童年起，你受到伤害， 父母很忙，易怒又疲惫， 父母之间糟糕的关系， 他们想在性或者其他方面获得满足， 又或者其他他们关系中腐朽的东西， 他们接受这些发生在孩子身上。 你看到了这一切。 工头骂工人等等。
56:30 Now, what is it that is hurt? Please, let’s reason together. The speaker is not the Delphic Oracle! There is no Delphic Oracle, even though the church talks about it. So, let us reason together. What is it that is hurt? There’s the physical hurt – disease, accident, maimed. That's one thing. That can be met if the brain is intact, naturally. Then for thought not to identify with that particular pain and keep on with that pain. You can deal with that fairly easily. But psychologically, inwardly we are hurt. And we are asking, what is it that is hurt? You are all hurt. And is it an image that you have built about yourself, that is hurt? Because each one of us has an image about oneself, right? That is a fact. That you're clever, not clever, that you're beautiful, not beautiful, that you must be this and you must not be that. You have gradually, through time, from childhood, have built this up. That you are American, that you must behave this way, or you are free – you have a certain image about yourself. And when that image is questioned, is trodden upon, put a pin into it, that image gets hurt. 现在，被伤害的是什么？ 请让我们一起思考。 演讲者不是德尔斐神谕！ 根本没有德尔斐神谕，虽然教堂（里）一直在谈论它。 所以，让我们一同思考。 被伤害的是什么？ 存在物理的伤害——疾病，意外，残疾。 这是一回事。 如果头脑是完整的，自然的，它们就能被处理。 然后思想不会和特定的痛苦相认同， 并保持住那种痛苦。 你可以相当容易地处理它们。 但是，心理上，内在，我们被伤害了。 我们问，被伤害的是什么？ 你们都被伤害了。 是那个你构建的，关于自己的意象，被伤害了吗？ 因为我们每个人都有一个关于自己的意象，对吗？ 这是一个事实。 你是聪明的，不聪明的， 你是美丽的，不美丽的， 你必须这样，你必须不能那样。 通过时间，你逐渐地， 从童年构建起（这个意象）。 你是一个美国人，你必须这样言行， 或者你是自由的——你有某种关于自己的意象。 当那个意象被质疑，被践踏时， 被别针扎了一下，那个意象就受伤了。
59:01 Right? I mean, we are reasoning, you are not accepting what the speaker is saying. So, as long as you have that image, you are going to be hurt. Now, from childhood – please, this is real education, if you are interested – from childhood not to create that image. That is real education. Now, the question is, I see I am hurt. I know the origin of that hurt, somebody said something, I was beaten, or I was insulted, all kinds of things, so the image gets hurt. The image is ‘me’. ‘Me’ who you have built up: 'I am beautiful', 'I am right', 'I am wrong', 'I must become something', 'I must become successful', 'I must fulfil' – you follow? That’s the image I have about myself. And as long as I have that image, you, somebody, is going to put a pin into it. And I get hurt. 对吗？我的意思是，我们在思考， 你不是在接受演讲者所说的。 所以，只要你有那个意象，你就会受伤。 现在，从童年——请注意， 这是真正的教育，如果你感兴趣的话—— 从童年开始，不要创造意象。 这是真正的教育。 现在，问题是，我看到我受伤了。 我知道那种伤害的起源， 某人说了某些话，我被打击了，我被羞辱了， 所有那些事， 所以，那个意象受伤了。那个意象就是“我”。 “我”当你构建起：“我是漂亮的”， “我是对的”，“我是错的”，“我必须变成什么”， “我必须变成功”，”我必须满足“——你明白吗？ 我有一个关于自己的意象。 只要我有那个意象，你，或者其他人， 就会用别针刺它。我就受伤了。
1:00:51 Q: Is it just that? Is it just that or isn’t it more? What if someone leaves you that you love? 问：就这样吗？还是还有更多？ 如果某个你爱的人离开了你会如何？
1:00:57 K: What, sir? 克：什么，先生？
1:00:58 Q: What if it's not just your ego getting pricked, what if it's your heart? Isn't there more to it than that? 问：如果不只是你的自我，被刺伤， 如果是你的心呢？没有更多了吗？
1:01:04 K: As long as I have an image about myself there is not holistic perception or love. Obviously. This is not the moment to go into it. We are dealing with hurt. And can one be aware of that hurt, sensitively, not say, 'I must not be hurt', be aware of it? And see and find out for oneself if it is possible not to have an image about oneself at all. If I have an image about myself I'll be dependent on you, comparing myself with people who have tremendous audience – you follow? Somebody calling me a fool, because you think you are a great man, or this or that. So there is always the feeling that I'm going to be hurt. And, as long as I have that image, I am going to be hurt. Now, can I live in daily life – please listen – in daily life, without a single image? Again, the brain has been used to this fact of having an image. Myself, how I look, how I don’t look, how I must be – the image. Society, education, the priests, the psychologists, the philosophers, have built in me my image, my knowledge, which is my image. So, is it possible to live without a single image? 克：只要我有一个关于自己的意象， 就没有完整的观察，或者爱。显然如此。 现在不是详细讨论的时候。 我们在处理伤害。 我们可以觉察到那种伤害， 敏感的，不是说，”我必须不受伤“， 觉察到它吗？ 看并且为你自己发现， 是否有可能根本没有一个关于自我的意象。 如果我有一个关于自我的意象， 我就会依赖你， 把自己和那些有很多听众的人比较 ——你明白吗？ 有人叫我傻瓜，因为你认识你是一个了不起的人， 这个，或那个。 所以总是有，我要受伤 的感觉。 只要我有那种意象，我就会被伤害。 现在，我可以在日常生活中 ——请注意听——在日常生活中，没有任何意象吗？ 再说一次，头脑习惯了拥有意象这个事实。 我自己，我的样子，不是我的样子， 我必须如何——这就是意象。 社会，教育，牧师，心理学家， 哲学家，都给我构建了意象， 我的知识，就是我的意象。 所以，有可能没有任何意象的活着吗？
1:03:42 Q: Inaudible. I explained that, sir. Knowledge has a certain value at certain places. A carpenter must have knowledge. If you want to drive a car, you must have knowledge. But when knowledge becomes psychological, as the image which I have built, which thought has built, that knowledge becomes the means of getting hurt. Obviously. That's simple. Now, to live without an image means can you see your image and observe it without any choice, be aware of it, look at it, give all your attention to it and find out for yourself whether it is possible to live without a single image, whatsoever. The speaker says it's possible. but don't accept what the speaker says, find out. Right. 问：（听不清）。 先生，我在解释它。 知识在某些地方有一定的价值。 木匠必须有知识。 如果你想开车，你必须有知识。 但是当知识变成了心理上的，变成意象， 我构建的，思想构建的意象， 那种知识就成了受伤的手段。 显然如此。这很简单。 现在，没有意象的活着，意味着你能看着你的意象， 观察它，而没有任何选择，觉察它， 看着它，给予你全部的注意力， 为你自己发现，是否有可能 无论如何，没有任何意象的活着。 演讲者说这是可能的， 但是不要接受演讲者说的，要发现它。 就这样。