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OJ81Q3 - 第三次问答会
欧亥，美国，1981年5月12日



0:14 I hope you are all warm – the vagaries of the climate in California. 我希望你们都不冷 ——加州的气候就是这么多变。
0:34 Can we start with the questions right away? 现在我们可以开始回答问题了吗？
0:41 First Question: 'What is the relationship between intelligence and responsibility?' 第一个问题：”责任感和智慧 的关系是什么？“
0:49 'What is the relationship between intelligence and responsibility?' ”责任感和智慧的关系是什么？“
1:00 One wonders, what is the meaning of that word ‘intelligence’. If each one of us had to give a meaning to it, according to either a dictionary or one’s own perception of what is intelligence, how would we put it into words? According to the dictionary, it is reading between the lines, and also gathering in, gathering in a lot of information, knowledge, and, from knowledge, reason and act. A man who is very scholarly, well-read, highly educated may not be intelligent in his action. So, one must be, I think, fairly clear what we mean by that word ‘intelligence’. 我想知道，”智慧“这个词意味着什么。 如果我们每个人或者依靠字典， 或者依靠一个人 个人对智慧的觉察， 我们要如何把它付诸于词语？ 根据字典的意思，（智慧）就是在 字里行间阅读，并且聚集他们， 聚集大量的信息，知识， 然后，基于知识，推理，行动。 一个富有学识，饱读诗书，受过很多教育 的人，也许他并不能智慧地行动。 所有，我认为，一个必须首先非常清楚， 我们所谓的“智慧”这个词是什么意思。
2:39 To see danger and act, is part of intelligence. To see psychological dangers and act immediately, that is intelligence. But, if we see the danger, both outwardly and inwardly, and not act, that is not intelligence. To see, for example – I'm taking a very simple, ordinary example – that nationality is a danger to the world, and to continue with that feeling of being a nationalist, surely that is an unintelligent way of looking at life? But, to see nationality is a danger and act, would that not be intelligent? Likewise, to see all the pitfalls, all the subtleties of psychological conflict, all the travail that human beings go through, and not end it but keep going on year after year, year after year, that is an act of unintelligence. To see that one is hurt and be free of that hurt, and never to be hurt, is an act of intelligence, surely? 看到危险并行动是智慧的一部分。 看到心理的危险，并立刻行动， 这就是智慧。 但是，如果我们看到内在以及外在的危险， 却不行动，那就不是智慧。 看，例如 ——我举一个非常简单的，通常的例子—— 国家主义对于这个世界是十分危险的， 而继续成为国家主义者的感觉， 显然是不明智的看待生命的方法，不是吗？ 但是，看到国家主义是危险的，然后行动， 这不是智慧吗？ 同样的，看到所有陷阱， 所有心理冲突的微妙之处， 所有人类经历的琐碎之事， 而不去结束它，反而一年又一年 地继续，就是不明智的行为。 看到一个人是受伤的，摆脱那种上海， 从不再受伤害，是一种智慧的行动，对吗？
4:50 Would that be clear? Is this clear when we talk about what we mean by 'intelligence'? To see clearly something inwardly, psychologically – all the traditional approaches to it have not solved our problems – but to see it for ourselves very clearly and act, that’s an act of intelligence. 这一点清楚了吗？ 当我们讨论“智慧”是什么意思时，这一点清楚了吗？ 清楚地看到某件内在，心理的事 ——所有传统的解决办法， 都没有解决我们的问题—— 但是为我们自己非常清楚地看到它，并行动， 那就是智慧的行动。
5:26 And, also, what is the meaning of that word 'responsibility', to be responsible? Responsible to your children, responsible to your husband, wife and so on, responsible not to destroy nature and so on. And, also, to be responsible to the whole of mankind. May I go on? That is, psychologically, all human beings are more or less similar – they suffer, are anxious and so on, we have gone into that. So, we are responsible, as human beings, for humanity, not only being personally responsible for one’s family, but responsible for everything that is happening in the world: the division between the Arab and the Jew, the wars that are going on in South America, the atom bomb and so on. We are responsible for all that. I wonder if we feel that way. Or, we say the problem is between the Jew and the Palestines and leave it at that. That, surely, is an act of not being intelligent. 同样，”责任感“这个词意味着什么， 对什么负责？ 对你的孩子， 丈夫，妻子等等负责， 对不破坏自然等等负责。 同样，对整个人类负责。 我能继续吗？ 也就是，心理上，所有人类都或多或少是相似的 ——他们受苦，焦虑，等等，我们讨论过那些。 所有，我们作为人类，对所有人类负有责任， 不只是对自己个人的家庭负有责任， 而是对世界上发生的任何事负有责任： 阿拉伯世界和犹太世界的冲突， 南美洲正在进行的战争， 原子弹，等等。 我们对这一切富有责任。 我好奇我们是否认识到这些。 或者，我们说问题只是在犹太人和巴勒斯坦人之间， 然后就把问题放在那里。 那必然不是智慧的行动。
7:22 And the questioner asks, what is the relationship between intelligence and responsibility? Intelligence is responsibility. In itself, it is responsible for everything it does. Why do we separate responsibility and intelligence? If one is intelligent, one is totally responsible. I wonder if one feels this way. Do we, as human beings, living in a monstrous world, where every kind of cruelty is going on, and we know violence is part of human nature, we have accepted it and, wherever one goes, violence is, apparently, in the human being. And to understand violence and to be free of violence is the responsibility of any intelligent man. Do we feel such a responsibility? Or is the questioner merely asking, putting a question, just intellectually, verbally, for amusement, for some kind of definition? Do we, as human beings, feel totally, completely responsible for all mankind, for whatever is happening in the world? 提问者问，智慧和责任感 的关系是什么？ 智慧就是责任感。 智慧本身，就是对它做的所有事的责任感。 我们为什么把智慧和责任感分裂开？ 如果一个人是智慧的，他就是全然负责的。 我想知道你是否感受到这一点了。 我们作为人类，生活在这个可怕的世界， 这里一切残忍的事情都在发生， 我们知道暴力是人类本质的一部分， 我们接受了它，不论我们走到哪里， 暴力显然都存在于人类之中。 而理解暴力，并摆脱暴力， 是任何有智慧的人的责任。 我们感受到这种责任感了吗？ 或者提问者只是问一下， 只是提一个智力上的，语言上的问题， 为了娱乐，或者获得某种解释？ 我们作为人类，彻底，完全感受到，对所有人类， 对所有发生在这个世界上的事的责任了吗？
9:44 Second Question: 'How does one tackle the dormant seed of fear within one? You have talked of fear several times, but it's neither possible to face fear nor to uproot it. Is it that there is another factor that operates to dissolve it? Can one do anything about it?' 第二个问题：“一个人如何处理 内在的恐惧的休眠的种子？ 你很多次讨论过恐惧， 但是（我）既不能面对恐惧，也不能拔除它。 有另外一种因素可以运作来消除恐惧吗？ 一个人可以对它做任何事吗？”
10:13 'How does one tackle the dormant seed of fear within one? You have talked of fear several times, but it is neither possible to face fear nor to uproot it. Is it that there is another factor that operates to dissolve it? Can one do anything about it?' “一个人要如何处理内在恐惧的休眠的种子？ 你谈论过很多次恐惧， 但是（我）既不能面对恐惧，也不能拔除它。 存在另外一种因素可以运作来消除恐惧吗？ 一个人可以对它做任何事吗？”
10:43 I hope the question is clear. Shall I read it again or is it clear? Clear? 我希望问题是清楚的。 我要再读一遍吗？清楚了吗？
10:49 Questioner: Clear. 提问者：清楚了。
10:57 K: We were going to talk about it on Saturday, but we'll do it now. 克：我们周天要讨论它， 但是现在让我们讨论一下。
11:10 The questioner asks, is there another factor that will dissolve, uproot the very root of fear? You are waiting for me to answer? Can we go into it together, not wait for me to answer such a question, but together investigate a very, very serious problem, and very complex problem? This fear has been with man since time immemorial. And, apparently, they have not solved it. We carry, day after day till we almost die, this burden of fear. Can that fear be totally uprooted? That’s the question. 提问者问，存在另一种， 可以消除，拔除恐惧的根源的因素吗？ 你们在等待我去回答吗？ 我们可以一起探究它吗， 不是等我回答这个问题， 而是一同探究这个非常非常严肃的问题， 这个非常复杂的问题吗？ 从难以追溯的过去开始，恐惧就伴随着人类。 显然，他们没能解决它。 我们日复一日，直至死亡，都背负着恐惧的重担。 恐惧可以被彻底连根拔起吗？ 这就是问题所在。
12:41 And, the questioner says, one has tried several different ways but, somehow, it doesn’t disappear. Is there another factor that will help to uproot it? 提问者说，他尝试过很多次， 但是，不管如何，恐惧并没有消失。 存在另外一种因素，可以帮助去拔除恐惧吗？
13:11 Can we, sitting here, look at our fear, not only physical fears of loss, of insecurity, the fear of losing one’s children, the fear, that sense of insecurity when there is divorce, fear of not achieving something, fulfilling. There are various forms of fear. Fear of not being loved, fear of loneliness, fear of what happens after death, fear of heaven and hell – you know all that kind of stuff. One is so frightened of so many, many things. Now, can we, each one of us, consciously, sensitively be aware of one’s own fear? Do we know our own fear? Doesn’t matter – it may be losing a job, not having money, death and so on. Can we look at it, first, not try to dissolve it or conquer it or go beyond it, but to observe it? Consciously observe, sensitively, the fears, or one fear that one has, a dominant fear. And, there are dormant fears that are asleep, deep-rooted, unconscious, way down in the recesses of one’s own mind. Can those dormant fears, which lie deeply within one, can they be awakened and looked at now? Or, must those dormant fears appear only in a crisis, in a shock, in certain strong challenges? Or, can one awaken the whole structure of fear? Not only the conscious fears but also the deep, unconscious, those shadowy recesses of one’s brain which has collected fears? Are we following all this, or am I talking to myself? 我们可以坐在这，看着我们的恐惧， 不只是物理的，对失去，不安全的恐惧， 恐惧失去自己的孩子， 恐惧离婚时的那种不安全感， 恐惧没有达成某事，没有满足。 有各种形势的恐惧。 恐惧不被爱，恐惧孤独， 恐惧死后发生的事，恐惧天堂和地狱 ——你知道那一切。 一个人是如此恐惧，如此多的事。 现在，我们可以，我们每一个人， 有意识的，敏感的，觉察到自己的恐惧吗？ 我们知道自己的恐惧吗？ 不管是什么——也许是事业， 没有钱，死亡，等等。 我们可以首先看着它， 不去尝试解决，征服，或者超越它， 而是去观察它吗？ 有意识地观察，敏感地观察那恐惧， 或者一个人恐惧，那些蛰伏的恐惧。 同样，有蛰伏的，沉睡的， 深深地，无意识的恐惧， 意识深处的恐惧。 这些蛰伏的，在我们内在深处沉睡着的因素， 他们现在能被唤醒，并被看到吗？ 或者，这些蛰伏的因素， 必须出现在一次危机中， 在一种冲击中，在某种强烈的挑战中？ 或者，一个人可以唤醒恐惧的整个结构？ 不只是有意识的恐惧，还有深层的，无意识的， 那些积累起来的，在一个人大脑深处蛰伏的恐惧？ 我们在一起探究吗，还是我在自言自语？
17:17 Can we do that? First, can we look at our fear? And, how do we look at it? How do we face it? Suppose I am frightened – and I'm not – that I cannot be saved except by some divine person. There is a deep-rooted fear of two thousand years. Right? I'm not even observing that fear, it's part of my tradition, part of my conditioning that there is only… I can’t do anything but somebody else, an outside agency, is going to help me, save me, I don’t know from what, but it doesn’t matter. And that's part of one’s fear. And, of course, there’s the fear of death, that is the ultimate fear, and so on. Can one, can I, observe a particular fear that I have, and not guide it, shape it, overcome it, try to rationalise it? It's there. Can I look at it? And how do I observe it? Perhaps this may be rather important. Do I observe it as an outsider looking in, or do I observe it as part of me? You understand? Fear is not separate from my consciousness. Fear is not separate, something outside of me. Fear is part of me. Obviously. So, can I observe that fear without the division of the observer and the observed? You understand? Are we following each other? Please, do follow! 我们能那样做吗？首先，我们可以看着我们的恐惧吗？ 我们如何看着它？我们如何面对它？ 假设我害怕——我不是—— 除了某些神圣的人，我不能被救赎。 这是两千年来深深扎根的恐惧。 对吗？ 我甚至没有观察过那恐惧， 他是我的制约和传统的一部分， 只有一部分……我不能做任何事，而其他人可以， 某个外在的媒介，会帮助我，拯救我， 我不知从何而来，但那没有关系。 这是我们恐惧的一部分。 显然，还有对死亡的恐惧， 那是终极的恐惧，等等。 我也可以观察我的某种恐惧， 不指导它，塑造它，克服它， 尝试去合理化它吗？它就在那。 我可以看着它吗？我如何去观察它？ 也许这一点相当重要。 我能作为一个局外人来观察它， 或者我把它当成我的一部分来观察它？你明白吗？ 恐惧无法和我的意识分开。 恐惧不是分离的，我之外的东西。 恐惧就是我的一部分。显然如此。 所以，我能没有观察者与被观察之物的分裂 地来观察恐惧吗？你明白吗？ 我们跟上彼此了吗？请跟上我！
20:18 Can I observe that fear without the division that thought has created between the entity that says, ‘I must face fear’? Just to observe fear without that division. Is that possible? You see, our conditioning, our training, our education, our religious ambitions, all point out that the two are separate. The ‘me’ is different from that which is 'not me'. All right? You see, we never recognise or accept the fact: violence is not separate from me. I think that may be one of the factors why we are not able to be free of fear, because we are always operating on fear. Right? We're always saying to ourselves, ‘I must get rid of it, what am I to do with it, is there a way...?’ All the rationalisation, enquiry, as though fear is something separate from the person who enquires into fear. All right? Can we go along? Is this clear? 我能观察恐惧， 而没有思想创造的，在那个说”我必须面对恐惧“ 的实体（和恐惧）之间的分裂吗？ 只是去没有分裂地观察恐惧。 可能吗？ 你看，我们的制约，训练， 教育，我们的宗教野心， 都指出这两者是分裂的。 ”我“和”非我”的东西是不同的。 对吗？ 你看，我们从不认可或者接受 这个事实：暴力和我没有什么不同。 我认为这也许是一个因素， 我们为什么不能摆脱恐惧的因素， 因为我们总是对恐惧进行操作。 对吗？我们总是对自己说， “我必须摆脱它，我要对它做些什么，存在一种方法……？” 所有的合理化，探究， 都认为恐惧和那个探究 恐惧的人，是分裂的。 对吗？我们可以继续吗？这一点清楚了吗？
22:40 So, can we observe fear without that division? That is, the word ‘fear’ is not fear. And, also, see whether the word creates the fear. Like the word ‘Communist’, for many people, it is a frightening word. So, can we look at that thing called 'fear' without the word, and also find out if the word is creating the fear? Are we in this together? 所以，我们可以没有那种分裂地观察恐惧吗？ 也就是，”恐惧“这个词不是恐惧。 同样，看到是否是这个词创造了恐惧。 就像”共产主义“这个词， 对许多人是非常可怕的。 所以，我们可以看着没有词语地看着那个被称为”恐惧“的东西， 同时发现是否是词语创造了那种恐惧吗？ 我们在一起探究吗？
23:50 Is there another factor which is not mere observation, but bringing, or having energy which will dissipate that fear, having such tremendous energy that fear doesn’t exist? You understand? Is fear a matter of lack of energy, lack of attention, and, if it is a lack of energy, how does one come about, naturally, to have this tremendous vitality, energy that pushes everything, fear, away altogether? You understand my question? We are following each other? All right, please, help me. Are we together? Do we understand so far? 存在另一种不是观察的因素， 可以带来或者拥有，能消除恐惧的能量， 拥有如此巨大的能量， 以至于恐惧不在存在吗？你明白吗？ 恐惧是缺乏能量，缺乏觉察， 它是否是缺乏能量， 一个人要如何自然地， 拥有那种巨大的，富有活力的能量， 能推平任何事，包括恐惧吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？我们跟上彼此了吗？ 好吧，请帮我一下。 我们在一起吗？我们理解了多少？
25:33 That may be the factor that will dissipate, or that energy will have no sense of fear. You see, most of us dissipate our energy in constant occupation with something or other, constant occupation, if you are a housewife, if you are a businessman, if you are a scientist, if you're... doesn’t matter, a careerist, you are always occupied. And such occupation may be, and is, I think, a dissipation of energy. Like the man who is perpetually occupied about meditation, perpetually occupied with the concern about whether there is God, or, you know, various forms of occupation. Is not such occupation, which is constantly thinking about it, worrying about it, concerned about it, is that not a waste of energy? If one is afraid and say, ‘I must not be afraid, what am I to do?’ and so on, which is another kind of occupation, and that may be one of the factors of the lack of energy. It’s only a mind that is free from occupation – of any kind – that has tremendous energy. That may be one of the factors that may dissipate fear. 也许有一种消除恐惧的因素， 或者说那种能量完全没有恐惧的感觉。 你看，我们绝大多数都在不断被某事占据中， 不断被占据中， 消耗着自己的能量， 如果你是一个家庭主妇，一名生意人， 如果你是一名科学家，如果你是……那不重要，一名职业主义者， 你就在不断被占据。 而这种占据，我认识，也许是 在消耗能量。 就像那些不断被冥想占据的人， 永远被考虑是否有上帝占据， 或者，你知道，那些各种形式的占据。 难道这种占据，也就是不断思考它， 担心它，关心它，不是浪费能量吗？ 如果一个人是恐惧的，他说”我必须不恐惧， 我要做什么？”等等，这也是另一种形式的占据， 那也许是缺乏能量的一个因素。 只有摆脱占据——任何形式的占据——的意识， 才有巨大的能量。 那也许就是消除恐惧的因素之一。
28:22 And, also, another factor is time. Time is fear. I wonder if you understand all this. Time, which is an interval between ‘what is’ and ‘what should be’, time between now and the end. We explained that, I don’t want to go into it too much. But we can see what a great part time plays in our life. The learning of a language requires time, learning about any technical subject requires time. And, we also accept time in the psychological world, in the area where the psyche functions. That is, the area where thought is constructing, building, changing, operating, reasoning, doubting – you follow? All that is the area of time, also. When one says, ‘I am afraid, but I will not be afraid’, the future is time. So, ‘I will be, but I am not, but I will be’, may be the root of fear. I wonder if you understand this. 同样，另一个因素是时间。 时间就是恐惧。 我想知道你们是否明白这一切。 时间，也是就“实然”和”应然“的间隙， 现在和结局之间的时间。 我们解释过那些，我不想深入太多。 但是我们可以看到时间在我们生活中发挥了多么大的作用。 学习一门语言需要时间， 学习任何技术性的东西需要时间。 同样，我们在心理世界也接受了时间， 在自我的领域。 也是就思想构建的领域， 构建，改变，操作，合理化，质疑——你跟上了吗？ 所有这些也都是时间的领域。 当一个人说，”我恐惧，但我会不恐惧“， 未来就是时间。 所以，”我会，但是我不是，但是我将会“， 也许是恐惧的根源。 我想知道你们是否理解这一点了。
30:48 Or, is there a totally different factor at all? That is, we have enquired, facing fear, actually observing it, consciously, sensitively aware and without any choice, without any direction, just to watch it. And we said also, the watching is important. How you watch, how you observe, if you are an outsider and observing, then you maintain the duality and then conflict arises. And the other is, time is a factor of fear. And is there an energy that has no fear, whatsoever? Are we coming together somewhere? Or is there an energy that sees fear and is completely free of it, immediately? I wonder if you understand all this. 或者，存在完全不同的 因素吗？ 也就是，我们探究， 面对了恐惧，真正地，有意识地，观察它， 没有任何选择，方向地， 敏感的觉察它，只是观察它。 我们也说，观察是重要的。 你如何看，如何观察， 如果你作为一个局外人来观察， 那么你就保持了二元性，然后冲突就升起了。 此外，时间是恐惧的因素。 存在在任何情况下，都没有恐惧的能量吗？ 我们一起走到哪里了？ 或者存在一种能量，能看到恐惧， 然后即刻地，彻底摆脱它吗？ 我想知道你们是否理解这一切。
32:40 So, also, there are the unconscious fears, the racial fears that one has inherited from time beyond time. The fears of our past generations which one has inherited and which are dormant. Can all these dormant, silent, hidden fears, be revealed completely, not go step by step, one fear after the other, you understand? It is possible only to reveal all the dormant fears, fears that have never been observed, never even come to the surface, can all that be totally awakened and, in the very awakening of it, is the ending of it? I wonder if you follow all this. Are we moving together, or am I walking a lonely path? 所以，也存在无意识的恐惧， 从久远过去继承的种族的恐惧。 我们过去世代的恐惧， 我们继承了它们，而它们仍在蛰伏。 所有这些蛰伏的，沉默的，隐藏的恐惧， 可以被彻底地揭示， 不是一步一步地，一个恐惧接一个恐惧地， 你明白吗？ 是否有可能揭示所有蛰伏的恐惧， 从未被观察到， 甚至从未出现在表面的恐惧， 所有这些可以被彻底唤醒， 而它的彻底唤醒，就是它的终结吗？ 我想知道你们是否跟上了。 我们在一同前进吗，还是只有我在前进？
34:38 You see, one of our misfortunes is that we are so clever in investigating, analysing, we never see things immediately, as a whole, a holistic perception of all fear. Please, don’t go to sleep, just let’s follow each other. That is, can we see, psychologically, the whole operation of fear, in which, in the very observation of that, observing wholly, completely, absolutely, the dormant fears will inevitably come out, and observe? Are we understanding each other? You see, most of us are concerned with trimming fear, like you trim trees, branch, so most of us want to trim fears. And we think that's good enough, but we never challenge ourselves whether it is possible to be completely free of fear. One may have done things wrong in the past, that also brings fear. Look at it! Face it! You follow? 你看，我们的不幸之一就是， 我们能如此清楚地调查，分析， 但我们从不能即刻，看到一一件事情的整体， 全然地看到所有恐惧。 请不要睡着，让我们跟上彼此。 也就是，我们能在心理上看到， 恐惧的整个操作， 在那种观察中， 全然地，彻底地，绝对地观察中， 那种蛰伏的恐惧必然也会显现出来， 并被观察吗？ 我们理解彼此吗？ 你看，我们中的绝大多数，只关心修剪恐惧， 就像修剪树的枝干，我们中的绝大多数都想修剪恐惧。 并且我们认为那就足够好了， 但我们从未挑战我们自己， 是否有可能彻底摆脱恐惧。 一个人也许过去做了错事， 那也会带来恐惧。 看着它！面对它！你明白吗？
36:51 You see, most of us do not demand of ourselves to be free, to be free of these burdens which we have inherited from time past, like fear. To say, 'Can my brain be ever free of fear?' and questioning it, asking, demanding it. That needs a certain persistency, a certain sense of immediacy. But we are not like that at all. 你看，我们中的绝大多数，不要求自己自由， 不想摆脱这些我们 从过去继承的负担，就像恐惧。 我们说，”我的头脑可以摆脱恐惧吗？“， 质疑它，询问它，要求它。 那需要某种坚持， 某种即可的感觉。 但是我们都不喜欢这一切。
38:11 Has the question been answered? Or are you still waiting for it to be answered? I think we have energy to meet this, holistically, see the whole movement of fear, time, the negligence, our laziness, our acceptance of fear as part of life. All that implies a certain inertia. We don’t meet this thing, completely, so we're always living with it. Is it enough? Can we go on with our questions? 这个问题被回答了吗？ 或者你仍然等待它被回答？ 我认为我们有能量去满足它， 整体地，看到恐惧的整个活动， 时间，疏忽，我们的懒惰， 我们接受恐惧作为生活的一部分。 所有这些意味着某种惰性。 我们没有完整地满足这件事， 所以我们总是和它生活在一起，现在够了吗？ 我们能继续下一个问题了吗？
39:52 Third Question: 'How would you define and value the quality of modesty?' 第三个问题：”你如何定义谦虚的 价值和品质？“
40:05 'How would you define and value the quality of modesty?' ”你如何定义谦虚的价值和品质？“
40:15 The word ‘modesty’ means self-abnegation. Not to be assertive – we are examining the word – not to show oneself off, both physically or psychologically, to be modest, which implies in that word a certain quality of shyness, reserve, not to be obtrusive. Right? The meaning of that word is all that. Apparently, in the world, modesty has disappeared. Everybody wants to be assertive, showing off, half-naked. You know what is happening in the cinema, the cinema world, and in the television. Apparently we are losing that, or have lost it, or never had it. Isn’t it important to be modest? Not always asserting, aggressive, 'I say this and you say...'. You follow? 'I want this.' Isn’t it important to be unobtrusive? The speaker, at the moment, is not. He's obvious, sitting there. But, if that quality of modesty, which disregards totally all reputation, disregards totally the self as being important, then it is, surely, utter lack of intelligence. Why has the world, especially the American world, lost this sense of modesty? Would you answer it? “谦虚"这个词意味着自我否定。 不要太自信 ——我们在检查这个词语—— 不去炫耀自己，外在和内在， 都是谦虚的，这就是那个词意味的， 某种害羞，保留的品质， 不要咄咄逼人。对吗？ 那个词的意思就是所有这些。 显然，在这个世界上，谦虚已经消失了。 每个人都非常自信，炫耀，半裸。 你知道电影院里发生了什么， 电影的世界，还有电视。 显然，我们正在失去，或者已经失去，或者从未有过它。 谦虚不是很重要的吗？ 不要总是太自信，富有侵略性， ”我说这个而你说……“你明白吗？ ”我是这样“。不咄咄逼人难道不是很重要的吗？ 演讲者这一时刻，不是那样。 他显然坐在这。 但是，如果那种谦虚的品质， 完全无视所有的声誉， 完全不顾自己的重要性， 那显然是缺乏智慧。 为什么这个世界，尤其是美洲世界， 失去了谦虚的感觉？ 你会如何回答它？
43:59 Questioner: Shyness is defined as mental illness. 提问者：害羞被定义成了一种精神疾病。
44:03 K: It's a form of mental illness, it's a form of neurosis, it's a form of self-exhibition? 克：它是一种精神疾病， 一种神经质，一种自我展示吗？
44:13 Q: It’s a form of beauty. 问：它是一种美的形式。
44:15 K: Modesty is beauty? What are you saying? 克：谦虚是美？你在说什么？
44:29 Q: Don’t we deny modesty? 问：我们没有否定掉谦虚吗？
44:30 K: Sir, please, if you all talk... How do we..? Are we modest? You have defined the word: to be self-restrained, to be somewhat shy, not self-assertive, not trying to say, 'Me first, look!' Look at my body, first.' You know what's happening in this world, especially in this country. I'm not criticising, I'm just observing. Everybody wants to be somebody, get into the newspapers, television. You follow? You know what is happening. Isn’t modesty part of beauty? Doesn’t that require a great sense of self-abnegation? But, when one is wanting to be a great success, to be known, to be a star, famous, sell more books. You know the whole… Apparently, we have lost that, and, therefore, we are becoming rather vulgar, insensitive. If one is not modest, you have lost a tremendous lot... of life. 克：先生，请，如果你谈论 我们是怎样的……？我们是谦虚的吗？ 你已经定义那个词是： 自我约束，一点点害羞， 不过于自信，不会尝试说，”我是第一位的，看！“ ”首先看我的身体。” 你知道这个世界上发生了什么，尤其在这个国家。 我不是在批判，我只是在观察。 每一个人都想成为某人，被报纸，电视报道。 你跟上了吗？你知道在发生什么。 谦虚不是美的一部分吗？ 那不是需要极大的自我否定的感觉吗？ 但是，当一个人想要变得成功， 变出名，变成明星，名人， 卖更多的书。你知道那一切 显然，我们失去了那种（感觉）， 因此，我们变得越来越粗俗，不敏感。 如果一个人不是谦虚的， 你会失去生命的一大部分
47:00 Fourth Question: 'Show me how to dissolve the ‘I’, the ‘me’. Without that, everything else is futile.' 第四个问题：“向我展示下如何消除”我“，”自我“。 没有那个，其他一切都是徒劳的。”
47:15 'Show me how to dissolve the ‘I’, the ‘me’. Without that, everything else is futile.' “向我展示下如何消除“我”、“自我”。 没有那个，其他一切都是徒劳的。”
47:55 The questioner says, ‘Show me’. One can point out various ways of denying, totally, the self, the ‘me’, the selfishness, the self-centred activity, but, apparently, man has tried so many different ways – religiously, politically, accepting the State and adjusting – you know all that. Apparently, man has not been able to totally deny or put away the whole nature and the structure of the self. 提问者说，“向我展示”。 一个人可以指出非常多的，彻底否定自我， “我”，自私，自我中心的活动的方法， 但是，显然，人类尝试了如此多不同的方法 ——宗教的，政治的，接受国家， 并且调整——你知道那一切。 显然，人类没能彻底否定， 摆脱自我的结构的整个本质。
49:03 Let’s look at it first, why 'self' has become so important. Why 'me' first? And many people have tried through meditation, through the repetition of certain idiotic words, tried to be free of all this 'self'. So, why has man given such extraordinary importance to the self? Why you – forgive me if I talk to you directly – why do you give importance to the self? Has it become a habit? Is it that we are encouraged from childhood? Is it that all religions have maintained that the self exists but identify that self with something greater? You know, all that business. Is it one feels, if there is no self, there is nothing? And one is afraid of being nothing. 让我们首先看一看，“自我”为什么变得如此重要。 为什么“我”是第一位的？ 许多人尝试，通过冥想， 通过重复某些愚蠢的词语， 尝试去摆脱所有的“自我”。 所以，人类为什么给予 自我如此大的重要性？ 为什么你——原谅我，如果我直接说到你—— 为什么你给予自我重要性？ 它变成一个习惯了吗？ 那是我们从童年就被鼓励的吗？ 那是所有宗教强调的，自我存在， 但是把自我和某些更大的事情相认同吗？ 你知道所有那些东西。 是一个人觉得，如果没有自我，就什么都没有了吗？ 而一个人害怕什么都没有。
51:00 So, the questioner says, 'Show me, help me to be free of this torture of the self. It is a torture, it's a battle that is going on, outwardly and inwardly. The self can have no relationship with anybody. The self, in its very nature, is an isolating process. And it may be an abstraction, not actual reality – reality in the sense, that can be touched, looked at, objectively. Is it a series of structures put together by thought? Because the self, the ‘me’, the egotistic action, is tearing the world apart. Perhaps we don’t see that. That self identifies itself as a Jew, as a Hindu, as a Muslim, as a Christian, as a scientist. And so, in the very nature of the self, its movement is to be isolated. Are we meeting each other? 所以，提问者说，“向我展示“， 帮助我摆脱自我的痛苦。 它是一种痛苦， 它一场进行中的，外在和内在的战争。 自我可以和任何人都没有关系。 自我，本质上，就是一个孤立的过程。 它也许是一个抽象，没有真实性 ——真实意味着，能客观地，被触摸，被看到。 它是思想构建的一系列的结构吗？ 因为自我，”我“，自我中心的行为， 正在把世界撕碎。 也许我们没有看到那一点。 自我把它自己定义为犹太人，印度教徒， 穆斯林，天主教徒， 科学家。 同样，在自我的本质中， 它的活动就是被孤立。 我们理解彼此了吗？
53:47 And the questioner says, 'What am I to do? I know all this. I have thought a great deal about all this. I've tried different ways. I have meditated, tried to control, tried to deny myself of everything, but it is still there.' Have you done, played with all this, some of you? If you have, then the question is, what is one to do? It may be that there is nothing to be done. Do you understand my answer? Through complete negation, there is positive action. I wonder if you understand all this. To negate. But we are afraid to negate, because we have identified ourselves with our body, the perpetual concern over the body, yoga, exercise, beauty, facial, you know, long hair, short hair, beard and no beard, go through the various fads that one goes through, all this is sustaining the self. And, in meditation, the controller is the self. I wonder if you see all this! 提问者说，”我要做什么？ 我知道所有这些。我思考了很多这一切。 我尝试了不同的方法。 我冥想过，尝试去控制， 尝试否定自我的一切，但是它仍然在那。“ 你们之中的一些和这一切玩耍过吗？ 如果你做过，那么问题就是，一个人能做什么？ 也许没有什么可以做。 你理解我的回答吗？ 通过彻底的否定，就有肯定的行动。 我想知道你是否理解了这一切。 去否定。 但是我们害怕去否定， 因为我们已经把我们自己和我们的身体相认同， 持续地关注身体， 瑜伽，锻炼，美丽的面庞，你知道的， 长头发，短头发，留胡子，不留胡子， 通过各种一个人经历过的时尚， 所有那些都在维持着自我。 同样，在冥想中，控制者就是自我。 我想知道你是否看到了这一切！
56:33 So, what is one to do? One has tried ten thousand ways. One has tried many, many ways to be free of this torture, this isolating process of the ‘me’. I don’t know if you have tried it. Probably not. But to do it demands tremendous alertness, watchfulness, attention. And in the self there is great pleasure. The saints have done that – self-control, self-torture. But, at the end of it all, there is this self, deeply rooted. And is it ever possible to have no shadow of the self? Which means no isolation. Which doesn’t mean, ‘I am the whole’, all those tricks. To have a sense of honest, absolute feeling that there is no isolation. Please don’t go off to the other, which is, ‘I am the whole, therefore I'm not isolated’, which is just another trick of thought. The other day, there was a letter, a man saying, ‘I am truth, you are part of me, and you don’t accept me, therefore you're not whole.' Such nonsense that goes on! 所以，一个人要做什么？ 一个人已经尝试了几万种方法。 一个人尝试了如此多的方法来摆脱这种痛苦， 这种"我”的孤立的过程。 我不知道你是否尝试过它。也许没有。 但是去那么做，要求巨大的警觉， 觉察，关注。 自我中，有巨大的乐趣。 圣人那么做过——自我否定，自我折磨。 但是，在那一切结束后，自我还是深深地扎根。 有可能没有自我的阴影吗？ 也就意味着没有孤立。 那不意味着，”我就是整体“，那些把戏。 诚实地，绝对地，感受到， 没有孤立存在。 请不要跑到另一面，也就是，”我就是整体， 因此我不是孤立的”，这只是思想的另一种把戏。 那一天，寄来一封信， 一个人说，“我就是真理，你是我的一部分， 而你不接受我，因此你不是完整的”。 这多么荒谬啊！
59:26 So, is it possible to eliminate altogether the feeling of isolation? And that may be love. And that may be the one central factor that totally dissipates the self. But that word ‘love’ is such a misused word. It has been spat upon, made into such an ugly thing. ‘I love my husband but I fight with him.’ ‘I love my wife, but I can’t tolerate her, I must have a divorce.' You know all that. ‘I love my country, therefore I'm ready to kill everybody else.’ ‘I love God and I will torture anybody who doesn’t believe in God.’ The Catholics have been experts at that. Though that word is something very sacred – not the word but the content, the depth and the beauty and the utter reality of it. That is sacred. And if we haven’t that, as the questioner says, everything else is futile. Then you might say, 'How am I to have that love?' You can’t. It isn't something that you cultivate, day after day, being kind, generous, doing social work, going off to some unfortunate country and helping the poor and all that. You see, that's one of our strange things, we have lost all reverence. It may be a bourgeois idea. We won’t go into that for the moment. 所以，有可能彻底抹除 孤立的感觉吗？ 那也许就是爱。 那也许就是彻底消除自我 的中心因素。 但是“爱“那个词是如此被滥用。 它被吐口水，变成了一件丑陋的事物。 ”我爱我的丈夫，但是我和他打架。” “我爱我的妻子，但是我不能忍受她， 我必须离婚。”你知道那一切。 “我爱我的国家，因此，我准备去杀死其他任何人。” “我爱上帝， 我会折磨任何不相信上帝的人。” 天主教徒可是这方面的专家。 虽然那个词语是某种非常神圣的东西 ——不是词语，但是内容，它的深度和美， 还有它真正的真实性。那是神圣的。 如果我们没有它，就像提问者说的， 任何其他事都是徒劳的。 然后你也许会说，“我要如何有爱？” 你不能。它不是你能培养的东西， 一天天，变得善良，慷慨， 做社会工作，去某些不幸的国家， 帮助那些贫穷的人，等等那一切。 你看，这就是我们身上一件奇怪的事， 我们失去了所有的尊敬。 那也许是一个资产阶级的想法。 我们现在不会深入它。
1:03:09 That may be the only factor, the only thing that totally, completely dissolves the self. Not, 'I love everybody'. That’s, again, another trick of the brain. 'I love one, therefore I can love all' – that’s another. But to have the beauty of it in your heart, not in the word, not in the form. And when there is no sense of isolation, then the other, perhaps, is. And then the self is not. When that is, the other is not. 那也许是唯一的因素， 唯一的，可以彻底，完全消除自我的因素。 不是，“我爱所有人”。 那，同样，是头脑的另一个把戏。 “我爱一个人，因此，我爱所有人”——那是另一个。 但是在你心中拥有它的美， 不是词语的，不是形式的。 同样，当没有隔绝感时， 那么另一个，也许，会在。 然后自我就不存在了。 当自我在，那个就不在。
1:04:37 Fifth Question: 'You have defined both insight and enlightenment as a clear perception of the whole, without the observer. But many of us have had insight, without being enlightened. So, what is the difference between insight and enlightenment? And what prevents insight from being – oh, Lord! – enlightenment?' 第五个问题：“你定义了洞察和觉醒， 是没有观察者地，清晰地看到整体。 但是我们中的许多人有洞察，但是没有觉醒。 所以，洞察和觉醒的关系是什么？ 是什么阻止了洞察的——上帝！——觉醒？“
1:05:07 'You have defined both insight and enlightenment as a clear perception of the whole, without the observer. But many of us have had insight, without being enlightened. So, what is the difference between insight and enlightenment? And what prevents insight from being enlightenment?' “你定义了洞察和觉醒， 是没有观察者地，清晰地看到整体。 但是我们中的许多人有洞察，但是没有觉醒。 所以，洞察和觉醒的关系是什么？ 是什么阻止了洞察的觉醒？“
1:05:29 I don’t know who made this statement. The speaker certainly has not. The speaker has explained what is insight, never what is enlightenment. You can describe enlightenment but the description is not the reality. And any person who says, ‘I am enlightened’… you know what that means. 我不知道是谁提出的这个说法。 演讲者没这么说过。 演讲者，解释了什么是洞察， 但是从来没有解释过觉醒。 你可以描述觉醒， 但描述不是事实。 而任何人说，”我觉醒了“ 你知道那意味着什么。
1:06:18 So, the question really is, the scientists have insight, but it is partial, the musicians have insight, it is still partial, many of us have insight, quick perception of something. A quick perception and action, many of us sometimes have it, but it’s all partial. Insight means insight into our daily life and action. I may, as a scientist, have an insight into certain factors of matter, but my life may be shoddy, ambitious, full of anxiety, dependency. Insight means insight into the whole movement of life, not just one part of it. 所以，真正的问题是， 科学家有洞察，但是是局部的， 音乐家有洞察，也是局部的， 我们中的许多人有洞察，快速地看到某事。 我们中的许多人，有些时候会有，快速地看到和行动， 但是那都是局部的。 洞察意味着洞察我们的日常生活和行动。 我也许，作为一个科学家，洞察 了某些物质的因素， 但是我的生活也许是劣质，野心勃勃， 充满焦虑，依赖的。 洞察，意味着，洞察生命的整个运动， 不只是它的一部分。
1:07:59 An insight can only take place when... thought is absent as memory. Think it out. It's not the result of calculation, mathematical conclusions. Perception without the past, seeing the thing completely. Like when you see, for example, that all accepted, established religions, all – whether it is in India, here or anywhere else – is... what it is. Therefore, when you have an insight of that kind you are free of all dogma, rituals, beliefs, faith. You don’t belong to any group, to any guru. Such insight is possible only when you are really attentive, your whole being, to find out. 洞察只有当，作为记忆的思想 缺席时，才会发生。 思考一下。 它不是计算的结果，不是数学结论。 没有过去地，彻底地看到一件事。 例如，就像你看所有那些， 被接受的，建立的宗教， 所有——不管是在印度，这里，或者其他哪里—— 都是……它们事实的样子。 因此，当你有那种洞察时， 你可以摆脱所有的教条，意识，信仰。 你不属于任何群体，任何大师。 这样的洞察，只有在你，真的关注， 用你的整个存在去发现时， 才有可能。
1:09:42 I think we better stop now, don’t you? 我认为我们最好停下来了，你们觉得呢？