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OJ81T4 - 我们是否有耐心去聆听自己？
第四次公开演讲，欧亥，美国，1981年5月10日



0:24 One is afraid that one has to repeat some of the things that we have said before, at the last three talks. 我担心我必须重复一些， 我们之前三次演讲 说过的东西。
0:42 What we are talking about is not a particular point of view, it is not that one is doing any kind of propaganda for any ideal, for any person, for any concept. We have been saying that the world is in a crisis, threatened by war, overpopulation, poverty, terrible division between nationalities, and all the absurdities that are going on in the name of religion. But the crisis, as we said, is in the human consciousness, in the mind, in the brain, in the heart. It cannot possibly be solved by politicians, or by the accumulated knowledge of the scientists, nor is it an economic problem, but it has become, dangerously, a human problem. And, apparently, very few are inclined, or interested to concern themselves with that crisis in the human mind. 我们要讲的不是某种特定的视角， 不是宣传 任何理想，任何人或者概念。 我们说，这个世界正处于危机之中， 战争，人口过多，贫穷的恐怖， 国家主义之间的可怕分裂， 还有所有那些以宗教之名进行的蠢事。 但是，正如我们说的，危机是在人类意识， 头脑，心灵之中。 它不能被政治家解决， 被科学家积累的知识解决， 它也不是一个经济问题， 但是它是一个危险的人类的问题。 显然，很少有人关心， 或者对他们自己 以及人类意识中的危机感兴趣。
2:52 And, if you are at all serious, and I hope we are, we must be concerned with the responsibility of all that is taking place in the world, because, as we have explained quite often, our consciousness is not the particular consciousness of one person, it is the consciousness of all mankind. Because all human beings suffer, wherever they live. They are in conflict, misery, confusion, searching out leaders who are always betraying them, depending on priests who have given them a lot of words and meaningless answers. Nor can one depend on the scientists who, with their specialisation, are helping to destroy the world. And as this crisis is in ourselves, and nowhere else, so the responsibility, as we pointed out, becomes very great and very serious. And, whether this consciousness, with which we have lived for a million years can ever be transformed. There are some who say it cannot, human nature is what it is, modify it, accept it, slightly change it, but fundamentally it cannot possibly be changed. And if one accepts the philosophers and those who think in that manner, then man – human being – must suffer, endlessly, must remain in conflict, everlastingly, there must be wars, endlessly, as there have been for the last five thousand years, in history, recorded history, practically a war somewhere on this earth – which is our earth, where we are meant to live and not the American earth, or the English earth, or the Indian, or the Japanese and so on. And this consciousness, in which there is this crisis, that must be answered, not by any particular specialist, professionals, but by us, ordinary, everyday living human beings with their jobs, with their miseries, confusion. 如果你们是严肃的，我希望我们是， 我们必须对世界上发生的 一切负起责任， 因为，就像我们经常解释的， 我们的意识不是一个人的 特定的意识， 它是全人类的意识。 因为所有人类都在受苦，不管他们生活在哪。 他们处于冲突，痛苦，困惑之中， 寻找总是背叛他们的领袖， 依赖给予他们许多 词语及无意义的答案的牧师。 一个人也不能依赖科学家， 他们和他们的专业知识，正在帮助破坏这个世界。 危机就在我们之中，不在其他任何地方， 所以我们指出的责任感， 就变得非常非常严肃了。 这个和我们一起生活了 百万年的意识， 能否转变。 有多人说，不可以， 这是人类的天性， 调整它，接受它，稍微改变它， 但是根本上，它不能被转变。 如果一个人接受哲学家，还有那些这样认为的人， 那么人类，就必然无穷无尽地受苦， 必然永远处于冲突之中， 就必然有无休止的战争， 就像过去五千年来的 历史，有记录的历史， 这个地球上现在就事实上在发生战争 ——这个我们注定生活的地球， 不是美国人，或者英国人的地球， 印度人或者日本人等等的地球。 危机就在这个意识之中， 它必须被回答，不是被任何特定的专家， 教授，而是我们，普通人，每一个日常生活中的人， 带着他们的工作，痛苦，困惑。
7:01 As we said, patience is timeless, impatience is full of time. And one must have patience to listen to ourselves because now we are depending on all the specialists, the professors, those who tell you what to do. We have lost self-reliance. We have become, more or less, slaves to authority, whether it is scientific authority, religious, or economic, or environmental authority. We are losing, all over the world, our sense of integrity. We are depending on books. Books have their place, but to understand ourselves through books, through another, has led us to this confusion, to this crisis. And, as we have pointed out, over and over again, that we are thinking, reasoning, observing together. We are not accepting what the speaker is saying, or rejecting. He is merely acting as a mirror in which we see ourselves. And when we begin to see ourselves as we are then we can throw away, break up the mirror. The mirror has no value. 就像我们说的，耐心没有时间， 没有耐心充满了时间。 一个人必须有耐心去聆听我们自己， 因为现在我们在依赖所有专家， 教授，他们告诉你去做什么。 我们失去了自力更生的能力。 我们或多或少成了权威的奴隶， 不管是科学的权威， 宗教的，经济的或者环境的权威。 全世界的人类，都失去了我们的完整感。 我们都依赖书籍。 书籍有他们的位置，但是通过书籍， 通过另一个人，理解我们自己，把我们导向了这种困惑和危机。 就像我们一遍又一遍指出的, 我们在一同思考，推理，观察。 我们不是在接受或者拒绝，演讲者说的话。 他只是一面让我们看到自己的镜子。 当我们开始看我们自身真实的样子， 然后我们就能扔掉，打碎那面镜子。 镜子没有价值。
9:31 So, we are saying that the crisis is in our minds and our hearts. And we don’t seem to be able to understand that crisis. Understanding brings its own discipline – not the discipline of conformity, not the discipline of imitation, not the discipline to accept something, however great or small. Discipline means – the root meaning of that word ‘discipline’ comes from the word ‘disciple’. Disciple is one who learns, not from another, however wise, however enlightened, however knowledgeable, but learning from our own self-education, learning about ourselves because there is our crisis. We have handed ourselves over to the priests, to the scholars, to the professors, the philosophers, and to the analysts. And unfortunately, recently, handed ourselves over to some gurus from India or Asia, which is most unfortunate. They have become rich, exploiting people. It has become, as it is now, it has become a great business affair, which again is obvious. 所以，我们说危机在我们的意识和心灵之中。 而我们似乎不能理解那个危机。 理解带来它自身的纪律 ——不是服从，模仿的纪律， 不是接受某事的纪律， 不管多大或多小。 纪律意味着——这个词根本的含义 ”纪律“（discipline）来自“学徒”（disciple）这个词。 学徒就是学习的人，不是从另一个人那里学习， 不管他多有智慧，多杰出，学识多渊博， 而是通过我们自己的自我教育来学习， 学习我们自身，因为危机就在我们之中。 我们把自己交给了牧师，学者， 教授，心理学家还有分析师。 很不幸，最近我们把自身交给了一些来自 印度或亚洲的大师，这是最不幸的。 他们通过剥削他人变得富有。 现在事情已经这样了， 那变成了一门巨大的生意，显然如此。
11:50 So, we are saying that one has to observe oneself, learn about oneself, not from anybody because they are not themselves studying – themselves. They have theories, some speculative ideas which they have experimented on animals, pigeons and so on. But they have never looked at themselves actually as they are, with their greed, with their ambition, with their competition, with their aggressiveness, violence and so on – all that we are. And, in the understanding of that, actually understanding not merely the verbal description of what we are but the actual understanding of our reactions, our thoughts, our anger, our wounds, our aggressiveness, violence and so on, looking at it. Therefore, out of that understanding, observation, comes this discipline which is constantly learning anew. 所以，我们说，一个人必须观察他自己， 学习他自己，不通过任何人， 因为他们自己没有在学习自己。 他们有理论，一些推理出的观点， 他们在鸽子等等动物上实验了这些理论。 但他们从不观察自己， 观察他们真实的样子，他们的贪婪，野心， 竞争，他们的攻击性，暴力，等等 ——我们也是这样。 在对那一切的理解中，真正的理解， 不只是对我们现状的语言的描述， 而是真正地理解我们的反应， 思想，我们的 愤怒，伤痕， 我们的侵略性，暴力，等等，看着它。 因此，在那种理解，观察之中， 诞生了纪律，也就是不断地重新学习。
13:39 Perhaps in this country we have lost the meaning of that word ‘discipline’, we have relegated it to the soldier, to some monks. In this country especially, we have lost the meaning of that word. If you are a careerist, in that career there is a certain demand for discipline. If you are a carpenter, the very understanding of the wood, the tools, the nature of design, that observation, that understanding brings its own learning, its own discipline, its own action. But, apparently, we have lost that because we are all so terribly concerned to get on, to climb the ladder of success, to become something – if you observe all this. And therefore we are becoming more and more superficial. You have got a marvellous country, one of the most beautiful countries in the world, from the highest snow-capped mountains, to the desert, to the vast rivers, and the deep valleys and the great trees. It is a marvellous country. And we human beings are destroying all that because we want to get on – God knows where, but get on. We are observing all this ourselves, please, you are not following the speaker. The speaker is not your guru, your leader, you are not his followers. One has to wipe away all that, and examine, closely, what we are doing as human beings. 也许在这个国家， 我们忘记了“纪律”这个词的含义， 我们把它丢给了士兵，僧人。 尤其在这个国家，我们忘记了那个词的意义。 如果你是一名职业主义者，在那种职业中， 就有对纪律的要求。 如果你是一名木匠，对木材的理解， 对工具，设计本质的那种观察， 那种理解带来了它自身的学习， 它自身的纪律和行动。 但是，显然，我们失去了那一切， 因为我们极度关心前进， 攀爬成功的梯子，去成为什么 ——如果你观察这一切。 因此我们变得越来越肤浅。 你生活在一个美丽的国家， 这个世界上最美的国家之一， 从最高的、白雪覆盖的山峰， 到沙漠，大河， 深深的峡谷，还有大树。 这是个美丽的国家。 而我们人类正在摧毁那一切， 因为我们要前进——上帝知道要去哪，但是前进。 我们在观察我们自己， 请注意，你不是在追随演讲者。 演讲者不是你的大师，你的领袖， 你不是他的追随者。 一个人必须抹除这一切， 密切地检视我们作为人类正在做什么。
16:24 In this consciousness, there is disorder, and we are trying to bring order in that by conformity, by acceptance, obedience. We have never understood what is order. And, as the speaker has been in this country for the last sixty years, I have seen every kind of phase, fad, something always new. And we live practically, socially, morally, ethically, in disorder. And without understanding order in the deepest sense of that word, meditation becomes utterly meaningless. We think that through meditation we will bring order. That's the trick that has been played upon us for a million years. But order begins at home, near. 在这个意识中，有失序， 而我们尝试在其中带来秩序， 通过遵从，接受，服从。 我们从未理解秩序是什么。 此外，过去六十年， 演讲者都待在这个国家， 我看过所有那些阶段的时尚， 总有新的东西。 我们在实践上，社会上， 道德上，都处于失序之中。 而没有对秩序的理解， 对那个词最深层面含义的理解， 冥想是完全没有意义的。 我们认为通过冥想，我们会带来秩序。 这是一个已经被我们玩了一百万年的把戏。 但是秩序从近处开始，就在你家里。
18:11 So we have to investigate together what is that order, because our consciousness, as we said, is in total disarray. It is in conflict. It is battling itself against something which it has created. So we are, together, going to enquire what is order. We are using that word to imply a state of mind, not as an ideal, a state of mind, a state of heart in which there is no conflict whatsoever. Conflict indicates disorder. Choice indicates disorder. A man who chooses is really not actually free, he is confused. Please don’t accept what is being said. It's important, one thinks, that one must cultivate or have this sense of scepticism, especially in psychological matters. There must be doubt. And if you observe, the Asiatic world, India, and so on, doubt has been one of the precepts in religion. The Hindus and the Buddhists have talked a great deal about doubt. But in the Christian world, doubt is denied because that world is based on faith. And, if you question, you are either excommunicated, or tortured, as they have done in the past, burnt. Now you are tolerated, there isn’t much difference. 所以我们必须一同探究什么是那种秩序， 因为我们的意识，就像我们说的，是彻底混乱的。 它处于冲突之中。 它在和它自己创造出的东西作战。 所以，我们在一起，探究秩序是什么。 我们用那个词语暗示一种意识的状态， 不是一种观念，是一种意识，心灵的状态， 在其中，无论任何情况下，都没有冲突。 冲突意味着失序。选择意味着失序。 一个选择的人实际上是不自由的， 他是困惑的。 请不要接受我说的东西。 我认为，一个人必须培养或者有怀疑精神， 特别是在心灵领域， 这是非常重要的。 必须有质疑。 如果你观察，亚洲世界，印度，等等， 质疑是宗教的一种告诫。 印度教徒，佛教徒，讨论了很多关于质疑的问题。 但是在基督教世界，质疑被否定了， 因为这个世界基于信仰。 而如果你质疑，你要么被流放， 要么被折磨，被烧死，就像他们过去做的。 现在你可以被忍耐，这没有太多不同。
20:52 So, please observe yourself, your environment, your society, and your own thoughts with considerable doubt. And also, listen to the speaker with doubt, with question, demanding of yourself – you are doubting all that you have thought, observed, learnt, so that the brain is free to observe. And also, doubt must be kept on a leash, like a dog. If you keep a dog on the leash all the time the poor animal withers. You must know when to let it go, run, chase, jump. Similarly, one must hold doubt on a leash, and also one must learn the subtlety, when to let it go. 所以，请观察你自己，你的环境， 你的社会，你自己的思想，带着相当的质疑。 同样的，带着质疑来倾听演讲者， 带着疑问，这么要求你自己 ——你在怀疑这一切，你在思考，观察，学习， 所以头脑自由地观察。 同样，质疑必须想狗一样被拴在皮带上。 如果你一直拴着一条狗， 这只可怜的动物就枯萎了。 你必须知道何时让它走，跑，追逐，跳。 同样的，一个人必须把质疑拴在皮带上， 一个人也必须学到所有微妙之处，何时让质疑跑出去。
22:27 So we are asking, why is it that man has lived in this disorder for millions and millions of years? Why we, human beings, wherever we are... why? What is the cause of this disorder? And, as we pointed out previously, enquiring into the cause, which is the analytical process, requires time. Please understand this a little bit, if you will kindly give your attention to what is being said. Analysis has been one of our pet pursuits, not only analysing the heavens, the stars, this expanding and contracting universe, but also we are analysing ourselves, constantly. And we have never enquired who is the analyser. The analyser, if you observe carefully, the analyser is the analysed. Thought has separated the analyser, as though he is some superior entity, with a great deal of knowledge, experience, and he's capable of analysing. Analysing what? You can analyse the minerals, the nature of the trees, the hydrogen bomb, the various scientific analysis that has produced great benefit and great destruction, also. 所以我们在问， 人类为什么在失序中， 生活了数百万年？ 为什么人类，不管在哪里，我们都……为什么？ 那种失序的原因是什么？ 此外，正如我们之前指出的， 探究原因，也就是分析的过程， 需要时间。 请多少理解一点， 如果你热切地关心，我们正在说的东西。 分析已经成了我们的追求之一， 不只是分析天空，星星， 宇宙的扩张和收缩， 而且我们也在不断地分析我们自己。 我们从不探究谁是分析者。 如果你仔细地观察， 分析者就是被分析之物。 思想分裂了分析者， 就像它是某种更高级的实体， 带着大量的知识，经验， 他有分析的能力。分析什么？ 你可以分析矿物质， 树木的本质，分析氢弹， 各种已经发生的科学上的分析， 带来了巨大的利益，也伴随着巨大的破坏。
25:10 We are asking – not of those analysis – but why, when we are seeking the cause of disorder, do we indulge in analysis? Or, there is a different approach to this problem altogether which is not analysis but pure observation – if you can do it. That is, to break away from the tradition of analysis. Which is, say, for example – the speaker doesn’t like to use examples, but we will, for the moment. Because examples are rather deceptive, limited. If I am angry, or greedy, or violent, I want to know the cause of it. Then I begin to analyse, trace it back, step by step. And I may find the cause of it. But who is the analyser who says, ‘I will trace, step by step, backwards into the true origin’? Who is that entity that analyses? That entity is still part of thought. That entity is the receptacle, or the vessel of previous experiences, previous examinations, previous analyses. He separates himself from that which is taking place and then he says, ‘I will analyse’. But, if you observe carefully, giving your sensitive awareness to it, then you'll see that the observer, the analyser is the analysed. Anger is not different from me. I am anger. But I have separated myself from anger and said, ‘I must control it, I must shape it, I must rationalise it’ and so on. One hopes this is clear. If you're not used to this kind of thinking, observing, perhaps we better go over it again. Because most of us are so accustomed, fallen into the habit of analysis. 我们在问——不是那些分析—— 而是，为什么，当我们寻找失序的原因时， 我们陷入了分析之中吗？ 或者，存在一种完全不同的，接近这个问题的方式， 不是分析，而是全然的观察 ——如果你能做到。 也就是，打破分析的传统。 也就是说，例如 ——演讲者不喜欢举例子， 但是我们暂时举一个。 因为例子是相当具有欺骗性，有限的。 如果我生气了，或者贪婪，暴力， 我想知道它的原因。 然后我开始分析，一步一步，追溯原因。 我也许能发现它的原因。 但是谁是那个说，“我在一步一步 地追溯真正的源头”的分析者？ 谁是那个在分析的实体？ 那个实体仍然是思想的一部分。 那个实体，是过去 经验的容器， 过去的考察和分析。 他把他自己和在发生的事情分离开， 然后他说，“我要分析”。但是，如果你仔细地观察， 给予你敏感的觉察， 然后你就会看到观察者，分析者，就是被分析之物。 愤怒与我没有不同。我就是愤怒。 但是我把我自己和愤怒区别开， 然后说，“我必须控制它，我必须塑造它， 我必须合理化它”，等等。 我希望这一点清楚了。 如果你不习惯这种思考，观察， 也许我们最好再来一遍。 因为我们大多数是如此容易， 陷入分析的习惯。
28:34 We are saying that analysis takes time. And, in that analysis, there are a great many deceptive activities going on. So can you observe what is order, and what is disorder? Just to observe it. That is... – you see, most unfortunately, everything has to be explained! We don’t jump to it, see it quickly. It has to be put into so many words, so many explanations. But the word, the explanation, is not the thing. You may paint a picture of the most beautiful mountain, that picture is not the mountain. The flowing waters in paint on a canvas, is not the living waters. 我们说分析需要时间。 同样，在分析中， 许多欺骗性的活动在进行。 所以，你能观察什么是秩序，什么是失序吗？ 只是去观察。也就是 ——你看，很不幸，所有事都要去解释！ 我们没法一下子跳过去，快速地看到它。 必须付诸于非常多的词语，非常多的解释。 但是词语，解释，不是那东西。 你也许画了一幅描绘最美丽的山峰的画， 但那幅画不是那座山。 画布上画出的流水，不是流水本身。
30:03 So, we are together understanding, trying to find out, what is order, and disorder. We said, there is disorder as long as there is conflict, as long as there are in us the contradiction, the want and not want, the desire and the opposite of that desire. In that we are caught – wanting and not wanting – to put it very, very simply, though it is a very complex problem, which is, cultivating the opposites. In that there is conflict, and that is disorder. 所以，我们在一同理解，尝试去发现， 什么是秩序，什么是失序。 我们说，只要有冲突就有失序， 只要在我们自身有矛盾， 想要和不想要， 欲望和相反的欲望。 我们被困在其中——想要和不想要—— 简单来说就是这样， 思想是一个复杂的问题， 它在培养对立面。 哪里有冲突，哪里就有失序。
31:13 Now, to find this out, go into it much deeper, one has to go into the whole question of desire, because human beings have lived with this desire, for life, for everything – desire. Are we together in all this? Or the speaker is going on on his own and you are there, sitting under the shade of a tree, under the beautiful leaves, and enjoying this sun and having a sun-bath. You are enjoying the sun-bath – this is hardly the place. But, if you are really concerned, as a human being, and feel responsible for the whole world not merely for your family, for your children – and one doubts whether you really feel responsible even there. Thousands and thousands of children are running away from home, beaten, tortured. All the ugly things that are going on. 现在，去发现这一点，深刻地探究它， 一个人必须探究欲望的整个问题， 因为人类带着欲望生活， 对生命，对一切的欲望。 我们在一起这样做吗？ 还是演讲者在自己探究， 而你只是坐在树荫里， 在美丽的叶子下，享受这阳光， 进行日光浴。 你们只是在享受日光浴 ——这可不是地方。 但是，作为一个人类，如果你真的关心， 对这整个世界富有责任感， 不只是对你的家庭，你的孩子 ——我甚至怀疑你们是否真的对他们有责任感。 成千上万的孩子逃离家庭， 他们被打，被虐待。 所有那些正在发生的，丑陋的事情。
32:59 And, if this crisis in our consciousness is really a deep, fundamental, sacred challenge – one is using the word ‘sacred’ in its real sense, sacred challenge – then we, as human beings, must respond to it. Or, if you cannot, we will be destroying each other, which is going on now. The competition between powers, the two powers, each wanting to be top of the other. And that is going on, even with the smallest country. Isn't it an odd fact? The world is imitating America, I don’t know if you have noticed it. Probably it is the easiest country to imitate. Don’t be angry with what I am saying, or be irritated, but observe it. What are we giving to the world, apart from grain, the materials of war, scientific know-how which other countries are now almost equal in their knowledge, laser destruction, atomic bombs – what else are we, as Americans, giving to the world? Please, look at it carefully. And what is the world giving to you? Nothing. Because we are losing the deep substance of our own depth of understanding. We are losing our freedom, institutions and organisations are taking us over. And all this is adding so much confusion, so much destruction, misery in the world. I don’t think we realise what we are doing. And, if one may point out most seriously, to understand all this confusion, this misery, this sorrow, this agony, this loneliness of human beings, we must go into the question of desire. 如果危机是在我们的意识之中， 它真的是深刻的，根本的，神圣的挑战 —我在使用”神圣的“这个词真正的意义，神圣的挑战—— 那么我们，作为人类必须回应它。 或者，如果你不能，我们就会毁灭彼此， 而这就是正在发生的事。 两个强权之间的竞争， 每一个都想在另一个之上。 即使是最小的国家，也是这样的。 这不是个奇怪的事实吗？世界都在模仿美国， 我不知道，你们是否注意到了。 也许这是最容易模仿的国家。 不要对我所说的 感到气愤， 或者被激怒，而是去观察它。 我们给了这个世界什么，除了粮食， 战争的工具，科学的知识， 其他国家现在也拥有几乎相同的知识， 激光武器，原子弹 ——美国人还给了世界其他东西吗？ 请仔细地看到这一点。 世界给了你们什么呢？什么都没有。 因为我们失去了深层的， 对我们自己的深刻的理解。 我们在失去我们的自由， 机构、组织正在接管我们。 而所有这些都在增加越来越多的困惑， 给这个世界带来，越来越多的破坏和苦难。 我不认为我们认识到了我们在做什么。 如果我能非常严肃地指出来， 要理解所有这些困惑， 这些苦难，悲伤，痛苦， 人类的孤独， 我们必须探究欲望的问题。
36:29 Man, apparently, has never been able to understand and go very deeply into this problem, desire. They have learnt to suppress it, or let it run. They have learnt every form of expression of desire – sexual, desire to possess, desire to deny, desire to become powerful, the desire to become a non-entity – you know, this whole drive of desire. And the various religions have said, the monks throughout the world must transmute desire, by offering themselves, surrendering themselves to a symbol, to a person, to a saviour, to an idea. That’s what the monks are all doing throughout the world. But, inwardly, they are burning with desire. And we too, every human being in the world, is consumed by it. We have never been able to understand and comprehend the nature of desire, not – please listen carefully, what I am saying may be very dangerous unless you understand it very, very deeply. We are saying, mere control of desire is not intelligent, nor the suppression of it, nor the escape from it. But in the understanding of desire, which is a very complex, subtle process, in the very understanding of that desire, it has its own discipline. Discipline being – please listen – the learning of the whole movement of desire, how desire arises, what is its nature, how it operates. In the fullness of that understanding, order in desire comes. 人类，显然，从未理解， 深刻地探究，欲望这个问题。 他们学会了压制它，或者放纵它。 他们学到了所有表达欲望的形式 ——性的，占有的欲望，否定的欲望， 变得更有力量，变成非实体的欲望—— 你知道，这整个欲望的驱动。 同时许多的宗教都说过， 全世界的僧侣（都说）， 必须转化欲望，通过把自己献给，臣服于， 一个符号，一个人，一个救世主，一个观念。 这就是全世界的僧侣在做的事。 但是，内在，他们都被欲望灼烧。 而我们也是，这个世界上每一个人类，都被欲望吞噬。 我们从未能理解， 抓住欲望的本质， 请仔细地听， 我说的东西也许是非常危险的， 除非你非常深刻地理解了它。 我们在说，只是控制欲望是不明智的， 不是压制它，也不是从中逃离。 而是理解欲望， 这是一个非常复杂，微妙的过程， 在对欲望的理解中， 有它自身的纪律。 纪律，也就是——请注意听—— 学习欲望的整个过程， 欲望如何升起，它的本质是什么，它如何运作。 在对它的充分的理解中， 欲望中的秩序就会到来。
39:56 Now we're going to – together, please – you and the speaker together are going to investigate patiently, step by step, into the nature of desire. When one learns, or rather, when one perceives, sees the movement of desire, how it arises, the whole complexity of it, then, out of that understanding, desire does not create confusion. 现在，请让我们一起， 你和演讲者一起探究， 耐心地，一步一步地，探究欲望的本质。 当一个人学习，或者说，当他观察， 看到欲望的运动，它如何升起， 它整个的复杂性， 然后，从那种理解中，欲望就不会再制造困惑。
40:57 So, we're enquiring into order, disorder and desire. Desire has created disorder, each one desiring something different from another, pursuing that desire through pleasure, pain, you know, all the rest of it. So, we are trying together to understand how desire arises, and when it is controlled, who is the controller, and is the controller different from that which he desires? We're going to go into all that. 所以，我们在探究秩序，失序，以及欲望。 欲望制造了失序， 每个人都有与他人不同的欲望， 通过快感，痛苦，追求那种欲望，你知道那一切。 所以，我们尝试一起去理解欲望如何升起， 以及当它被控制时，谁是控制者， 控制者不同于它的欲望吗？ 我们要探究这一切。
42:00 I do not know if you have observed anything – the mountains, the hills, the valleys, the beautiful trees – with all your senses. Please, as you are sitting under these trees, dappled light, observe, if you can see, the trees, the hills, with all your senses totally awakened. Or you merely observe either visually, or observe through words, or have you ever observed with all the attention, which means with all the senses totally awakened. When you look at the sea, the blue Pacific, the light, the sparkling waters and the far-reaching waves, do you observe it? Or you merely say how beautiful it is, – you are so anxious to reach your goal. So, we hardly ever observe anything with all our senses fully awakened. That is real sensitivity. And when you so observe with all the senses there is no centre from which you observe. This is not something mysterious... Just observe for yourself, you will see. Our senses inform the brain whether it is pleasant or unpleasant, it’s painful or not painful, and so on. So senses are very important. But those senses are destroyed by drugs, alcohol, tobacco, over-indulgence, with impatience. So senses help to observe. That is, first you perceive with your senses, then there is a contact, then there is a sensation. Right? You are following? Are we meeting each other? Come on, sirs! 我不知道你是否观察过任何事 ——山峰，丘陵，峡谷， 美丽的树——带着你所有的感官。 现在你坐在树下，有斑驳的阳光，请你 观察，你是否能看着那些树，山丘， 带着你所有的感官，彻底地觉醒。 或者你只能要么视觉地观察， 要么通过词语观察， 或者你曾经带着所有的关注去观察吗？ 那意味着所有感官彻底地觉醒。 当你看大海，湛蓝的太平洋， 阳光，粼粼的水面，还有蔓延到远处的波纹， 你在观察吗？还是你只是在说它们有多美 ——你是如此焦虑于达成你的目标。 所以，我们很少观察过任何事， 带着我们感官的彻底的觉醒。 这是真正的敏感。 当你这样带着全部感官观察时， 就没有一个观察的中心。 这没有什么神秘的 只是为你自己观察，你会看到的。 我们的感官告诉头脑， 它是快乐还是不快乐， 痛苦还是不痛苦，等等。 所以，感官是非常重要的。 但是这些感官被药物破坏， 酒精，烟草，放纵生活，没有耐心。 所以，感官帮助观察。 也就是，你首先带着感官觉察， 然后有一个接触，然后就有感受。对吗？ 你跟上了吗？我们理解彼此了吗？ 先生，快跟上！
46:10 The seeing, the contact, then from that contact sensation. Then – please observe closely for yourself, don’t accept what the speaker is saying, ever, but look at it for yourself – seeing, touching, the sensation. Then thought creates the image, and at that moment, desire is born. Right? It is very simple. Explanation makes it a little complex but it's really quite simple. You see a robe, a shirt, or trousers, or a dress in the window, go inside, feel it – the sensation. Then thought says, ‘How nice it would be if I was in it.' Right? Then desire begins. Understood? I'm not telling you. You are watching it for yourself. Seeing, contact, sensation, then thought creating the image – you sitting in the car and driving. So, desire begins when thought creates the image and, at that moment, desire is born. Is it clear for ourselves? You are not accepting the speaker’s explanation. They are merely words. They have no significance if you are merely accepting the words. But if you see it for yourself, directly, then you will understand – please follow this a little bit closely – then you will understand whether the seeing, contact, sensation, whether it can stop there, and not let thought create the image. You have understood? Have you captured this a little bit? 看，接触，然后从中产生了感官。 然后——请为你自己仔细地观察， 不要接受演讲者说的任何东西， 而是为你自己去看——看，接触，感受。 然后思想创造了意象， 在那个时刻，欲望诞生了。 对吗？ 这很简单。解释只会让它更复杂， 但是它真的相当简单。 你在橱窗里看到一件长袍，一件T恤，或者裤子，或者什么衣服， 你走进去，感受它——这是感受。 然后思想说，“如果我穿上它该多好啊。” 对吗？然后欲望就开始了。 明白了吗？ 我不是在告诉你。你可以自己看到这一点。 看，接触，感受，然后思想创造了意象 ——你坐在车里，开着车。 所以，当思想创造意象时，欲望就开始了， 在那个时刻，欲望就诞生了。 我们清楚这一点了吗？ 你不是在接受演讲者的解释。 它们只是词语。 如果你只是接受词语，那它们没有意义。 但是如果你为你自己，直接看到它们， 那么你就会理解 ——请紧紧地跟上这一点—— 然后你就会理解是否，看，接触，感受， 是否能停在那，而不让思想创造意象。 你们明白了吗？你把握到一点了吗？
49:09 In that learning, there is discipline. You understand? Not control. One of the factors of our education is that there is a controller separate from that which is controlled. That is how we live: I must control, I must discipline, I must learn. So there is always division between the controller and the controlled. And we have been trained in that, educated from childhood. But is that a fact? This division between the controller and the controlled may create more and more and more conflict, which it is doing. That may be totally a wrong approach to life. But if you understand the controller is the controlled. Right? Anger, violence, say for example, violence – we won’t go into the nature of violence – just the meaning of that word ‘violence’, which is spreading all over the world, etc. There is violence, human beings are violent, therefore I realise I am violent, you are violent. And then we say,‘I must change it, I must control it, I must become non-violent’ – which is one of the pet idiotic illusions. So, violence is not separate from me, I am violent. Right? I wonder if you understand that. 在那种学习中，就有纪律。你明白吗？ 不是控制。 我们教育的一个因素就是我们有一个控制者， 和它控制的东西相分离。 这就是我们生活的方式，我必须控制， 我必须有纪律，我必须学习。 所以，总是有控制者和被控制之物的分裂。 我们从童年开始就被这样训练和教育。 但是那是事实吗？ 控制者和被控制之物的分裂， 也许在制造越来越多的冲突， 它就在这么做。 这也许是一种完全错误的生活方式。 但是如果你理解了控制者就是被控制之物。 对吗？愤怒，暴力，举个例子，比如暴力 ——我们不是要探究暴力的本质—— 只是“暴力”这个词的意思， 暴力散布满了整个世界，等等。 存在暴力，人类就是暴力的， 因此我认识到我是暴力的，你也是暴力的。 然后我们说，“我必须改变它，我必须控制它， 我必须变得不暴力” ——这是愚蠢的幻觉之一。 所以，暴力和我没有不同，我就是暴力。 对吗？我想知道你们是否理解了。
51:42 So, if there is no separation between violence and the thought that I am different from violence, when there is no separation there is only violence. Please follow this a little bit. There is only that state of sensation which you have named as 'violence'. To look at that, to observe that violence without the word, to observe it, not as an observer looking at violence. Move, sirs! To look at it, so that the observer is not but only that thing called violence, which is a sensation as anger, jealousy and so on. 所以，如果没有暴力与 认为它不同于暴力的思想的分裂， 当没有分裂时，就只有暴力。 请跟上一点。 只有那种被你命名为 “暴力”的感受的状态。 看着它，没有词语地观察那暴力， 观察它，不是作为一名观察者看着暴力。 先生，请前进！ 看着它，所以观察者不在了， 只有被称为暴力的东西， 也就是那种愤怒，嫉妒，等等的感觉。
52:50 Similarly, to observe the seeing, the contact, the sensation, then thought creating the image – having that dress, or that shirt, which then creates the desire to possess, to deny, all that. So can the brain stop with seeing, contact, sensation – stop there, not let thought interfere with its image. That is the learning about desire. You have got it? Somebody got it? 相似的，观察，看，接触，感受， 然后思想创造了意象 ——穿上那件衣服或者T恤， 那就创造了占有，否定，等等的欲望。 所以，头脑可以停在看，接触，感受 ——停在那，不让思想和它的意象介入。 那就是学习欲望。 你明白了吗？有人明白了吗？
53:44 Questioner: Yes. 提问者：是的。
53:53 Krishnamurti: So that we are freeing the brain, which has been accustomed to control, conflict, strain, all that, we are helping the brain to observe itself totally anew, so that it becomes terribly alive, freed from a pattern which it has accepted for a million years. You understand? 克：所以，我们在解放头脑， 头脑习惯于控制， 冲突，绷紧，等等， 我们在帮助头脑去彻底崭新地观察它自己， 所以它变得惊人的有活力， 从它接受了一百万年的模式中解脱了出来。 你明白了吗？
54:34 So, if there is no contradiction in desire – wanting and not wanting, knowing that, to succeed, one is ruthless and yet the desire to succeed – you follow? – this contradiction which is so, apparently, part of our conditioning. When you observe it, you can then see without any control, without any influence, without any direction, you can see the nature of desire, and the understanding of it brings its own learning, which is its discipline. Got it? 所以，如果没有欲望的冲突 ——想要，不想要， 明白为了成功，一个人是无情的， 还有成功的欲望——你明白吗？—— 这种冲突，显然， 就是我们制约的一部分。 当你观察它，你能没有控制地看， 不施加影响，没有任何方向地， 看到欲望的本质吗？ 对它的理解就带来了它自身的学习， 也就是它的纪律。对吗？
55:40 So desire and time are the factors of disorder. And when you understand it, really deeply, profoundly, there is complete order in one’s life. Total order. Not occasionally, not at weekends, but throughout our daily life. 所以欲望和时间是失序的因素。 当你理解它，真正地，深刻地，充分地理解， 一个人的生活就会有彻底的秩序。 彻底的秩序。不是偶尔的，不是只在周末， 而是贯穿我们的日常生活。
56:28 I must stop. 我必须停下了。