克里希那穆提 - 心理痛苦

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ82CNM2 - 心理痛苦与博姆、希德利和谢尔德雷克各位博士的第二次讨论加州，欧亥 1982年4月17日
0:05 The Nature of the Mind	0:05 希：心的本质
0:13 Part Two	0:13 第二部分
0:15 Psychological Suffering	0:15 心理痛苦
0:23 This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley. The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions about the mind, what is psychological disorder, and what is required for fundamental psychological change.	0:23 这是J·克里希那穆提、大卫·博姆、鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克以及约翰·希德利之间的系列对话之一。这些讨论旨在探索最根本的心灵问题，即何为心理失序，以及彻底的心理转变需要什么。
0:43 J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator, who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years. He has founded elementary and secondary schools in the United States, England, and India.	0:43 J·克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲人、作家、教育家，他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。他在美国、英国和印度建立了几所小学和中学。
0:57 David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics at Birkbeck College, London University in England. He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics and the nature of consciousness. Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti have held previous dialogues on many subjects.	0:57 大卫·博姆是理论物理学教授，就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。他著有多部著作，论述理论物理学以及意识的本质。博姆教授与克里希那穆提先生，之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
1:14 Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book proposes that learning in some members of a species affects the species as a whole. Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist to the International Crops Research Institute in Hyderabad, India.	1:14 鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家，新近发表了一部著作，提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程将会影响整个物种。谢尔德雷克博士现在担任位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的顾问植物生理学家。
1:32 John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice, who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California for the past six years.	1:32 约翰·希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生，与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校六年来一直联系密切。
1:41 In the first dialogue the nature of the self was discussed, its relationship to suffering, to society, and to religion. Questions raised were, can one discover or learn about these relationships, and is the need for psychological security the root of the problem? Today's discussion continues with these questions.	1:41 在第一次谈话中，讨论了自我的本质，它跟痛苦、跟社会以及宗教的关系。提出来的问题是，我们能不能发现或认识这些关系，对心理安全的需求是不是问题的根源所在？今天会继续讨论这些问题。
2:04 H: We talked yesterday, we started with the question of the origin and nature of psychological disorder, and we suggested that it has its roots in self-centred activity, which is divisive and conflictual in nature, and that biologically such factors as instinctual aggression and dominance drives, the facts of illness and death, all contribute. I wondered if we could start this morning, David, by having you comment on relationship between these biological factors and psychological security.	2:04 希：我们昨天一开始谈到了心理失序的肇始和本质问题，我们认为，其根源在于自我中心的行为，这种行为本质上是分裂的、冲突的，而从生物学上来讲，本能的侵略性、渴求支配的驱动、疾病和死亡的现实，这些因素都促成了这一行为。大卫，不知今天早上我们能不能让你先谈谈这些生物学因素和心理安全之间的关系。
2:43 B: Yes, well, biologically, if you begin with the animal, you have all sorts of things like fear, and anger, and aggression, and they're fairly simple. They exist for a short period while the fact is there, and then they generally disappear, leaving little trace. There may be a few cases in the higher animals where there's some memory, but it's in man that the memory becomes very significant, remembering all these experiences and anticipating the future, you get a very different sort of behaviour. 3:19 For example, with an animal, he might have a bad experience with another animal, and shortly afterward he'll be in fairly good state of equilibrium, but, say, we have a quarrel between two groups, as in Northern and Southern Ireland, this has been going on for 350 years, and there is a specific effort to remember it which you can see going on. And I think this is the biggest difference.	2:43 博：可以。嗯，在生物学上，如果从动物开始，你有各种像恐惧、愤怒以及好斗之类的特征，那显而易见。它们存在了一段不长的时期，那期间事实确实如此，然后它们通常消失了，没留下什么痕迹。在高等动物界，可能有些动物有一些记忆，但记忆变得至关重要，这发生在人类身上，记住所有的经验并预想未来，你就会有一种截然不同的行为。 3:19 比如，一个动物，它跟另一个动物可能有过不愉快的相处经验，但过后很快它就会处于一种相当良好的平衡状态，但我们人类，比如两个团体之间出现争吵，像南北爱尔兰那样，持续了350年，而且你可以看到，那种特意记住它的努力也在继续。我想这就是最大的不同。
3:48 H: Memory being the...	3:48 希：记忆是
3:50 B: Yes, the effect of memory, the consequences of memory. You see, memory by itself would obviously not cause any trouble, because it's only a fact, right? But memory has consequences: it may produce fear, it may produce anger; it may produce all sorts of disturbances, to remember what did happen and to anticipate what may happen.	3:50 博：是的，记忆的作用，记忆的影响。你看，记忆本身显然不会带来任何问题，因为那只是事实，对吧？但记忆会产生影响：记住过去发生的事，并预想未来会发生什么，它可能会制造恐惧，它可能会制造愤怒，它可能会制造各种困扰。
4:13 S: You mean thinking about it?	4:13 谢：你的意思是心里想着它？
4:16 B: Yes. Based on memory, right?	4:16 博：是的。基于记忆，不是吗？
4:18 S: I mean, obviously the animal that's been attacked by another animal remembers in the sense that when it sees the other animal again, it's afraid. It probably doesn't think about it in between.	4:18 谢：我的意思是，显然被另一个动物攻击的动物，它所谓的记忆在于，它再次看到那个动物时，会害怕。在中间那段时间，它可能不会去想这件事。
4:28 B: Yes, it can't form an image, I don't believe that most animals can form images of the other animals, and I can base that on experience, that I have seen dogs fighting very hard, and as soon as they turn the corner, the dog sort of forgets what happened. He is disturbed but he doesn't know why he is disturbed. Now, if he could remember the other dog after he turned the corner, he could continue the struggle over territory indefinitely. So, the point about territory is, the animal maintains it in a certain limited context. But man remembers it, and he maintains this territory indefinitely and wants to extend it, and so on, because of his thinking about it.	4:28 博：是的，它不会形成一个意象，我不相信大部分动物对另外的动物能形成意象，经验也告诉我，我看到过狗打得很凶，可是才拐个弯儿的工夫，那狗好像就忘了刚才的事。它被打扰，但它不知道为什么被打扰。那么，如果它拐了个弯儿之后还能记得另一只狗，它就会为了领地继续没完没了地打下去。所以，关于领地的关键在于，动物对它的维护是在某个有限的范围之内。但人类记着自己的领地，他无限期地维护这块领地并且意欲扩张它，诸如此类，因为他一直想着它。
5:13 S: So, are you suggesting that the basis of the specifically human kind of pain and suffering, over and above the kind of suffering we see in the animal kingdom, is this ability to remember, to brood over it, think about this?	5:13 谢：所以，你的看法是不是，人类那种特别的痛苦，超越我们所看到的动物界的那种痛苦，其根本原因就在于这种记忆的能力，对它牵肠挂肚，念念不忘？
5:27 B: Yes, the animal may have some of that. I've seen examples on television of a deer who lost its doe, and it was pining away in the wild, but I think it's limited, that is, there is some suffering of that kind in the animal world, but with man it's enormously expanded, it seems limitless. Yes, I think the major point is that with man the thing can build up like a tremendous explosion that fills his whole mind, and it can become the major motive in life, to remember the insult and to revenge the vendetta, in families over many generations. To remember the bad experience you had with somebody and to be frightened of what's coming like the examination that the child may be frightened of, or something like that.	5:27 博：是的。动物可能也有一点这样。我在电视上看到过这种例子，一头雄鹿失去了它的雌鹿，它在野外日显憔悴，但我认为其程度是有限的，就是说，动物界在某个程度上存在那种痛苦，至于人类，那痛苦就扩张得极其严重了，似乎是没有边的。是的，我认为关键点在于，涉及到人类的话，那件事情可以像一次大爆炸，充满他的整个头脑，家族中好几代下来，对侮辱的记忆，报仇雪恨的念头，可以成为生活的主要动力。牢记跟别人的不愉快经历，害怕将要来临的事，比如小孩子可能会怕考试或者类似的事情。
6:20 K: But have you answered his question, sir?	6:20 克：但你回答他的问题了吗，先生？
6:22 B: Which is?	6:22 博：哪个问题？
6:23 K: Which was...	6:23 克：那个
6:24 H: How does the biological fact of illness, or death, or instinctual drive result in a psychological problem or disorder?	6:24 希：疾病或死亡的生物学事实，或者本能驱动是怎样引起心理问题或心理失序的？
6:35 B: By thinking about it. I say that the biological fact is not a serious problem, in the long run, but as soon as you begin to think about it, and not merely think about it, but make images about it along with that thought, and to revive the memory and anticipate the feeling of the future, and while you are thinking, then it becomes a very serious problem, because you can't stop it, you see. You will never attain security by thinking about it, but you are constantly seeking security. 7:13 You see, the purpose of thinking is to give you security in practical affairs, technical affairs. Now, therefore you are doing a similar sort of thinking saying how can I be secure against the possibility of suffering again? And there is no way to do that. You may take technical steps to make it unlikely, but as you think about it, you begin to stir up the whole system and distort the whole mental process.	6:35 博：通过对这个问题的思考，我觉得生物学事实并无大碍，从长远来看，不过你一旦开始想这件事，不只是想，而且还随着念头制造意象，重温记忆并且还预期将来的感觉，那么当你在想的时候，那就变成非常严重的问题，因为你看，你停不下来了。通过想这件事，你是永远得不到安全的，然而你却不停地寻求安全。 7:13 你看，在具体事务上，在技术性事务上， “想”是为了给自己安全。那么，你还是在同样地“想”着，念叨着我怎样才能避免再次受苦的可能？但那样是办不到的。可能你会采取技术性步骤让事情不可能发生，但你想着它的时候，就开始搅乱整个系统，扭曲整个心理过程了。
7:48 H: Well, it seems clear that by thinking about it we stir up the emotions and the associations that are those thoughts, but we're not suggesting we shouldn't think about it, are we?	7:48 希：哦，很明显我们在想的过程中，引发了情感和联想，即那些想法，但我们的意思并不是不可以想，对吧？
8:03 B: Well, it depends on how you think about it. This thinking gets to be directed toward giving you a sense of security, you see, an image of security.	8:03 博：哦，那得看你怎么想了。这种想是要给你一种安全感，你看，一种安全的意象。
8:15 H: Right. I get hurt when I'm little, or some time along the line, and it creates a fear in me, and I anticipate that kind of situation. I may not even remember the incident, but I want to avoid it in the future.	8:15 希：没错。我小时候或成长的某个时期受了伤害，内心有了恐惧，我就会预想那种受伤的情况。可能我都已经忘了那件事，却想着以后要避免。
8:29 B: Yes, and now, the point is this: the mind is always searching for how to avoid it, and searching out thoughts, images, saying, that fellow is the one who did it, I must keep away from him; coming to conclusions, and if any conclusion gives you an image of security, then the mind holds on to it, right? Without actually any basis.	8:29 博：是的，那么问题在于：头脑总是琢磨着怎样避免，琢磨着各种念头、意象，念叨着：就是那个人干的，我必须离他远远的；形成各种结论，如果任何结论能带给你一幅安全的图景，头脑就会紧抓不放，是不是？而实际上并没有任何根据。
8:53 H: Could you elaborate on that a little?	8:53 希：可以就这一点详细解释一下吗？
8:56 B: Well, if you have had a bad experience with somebody, you may conclude that you should never trust him again, for example. Although that might be quite wrong. But the mind is so anxious to have security that it will jump to the conclusion that it's not safe to trust him. Right?	8:56 博：哦，比如你跟某人相处不快，你就可能得出结论，你再也不该信任他。虽然那也许完全错了。但由于头脑急于获得安全，它就会急着下结论：信任他，是不安全的。对吧？
9:18 H: Yes.	9:18 希：是的。
9:19 B: Now, if you find somebody else who seems to treat you well, and reassures you, and flatters you, then you may jump to the conclusion you can completely trust him. Now, the mind is now looking for thoughts that will give it good feelings, because the feelings of the memory are so disturbing to the whole system that its first function is to make the mind feel better, rather than find out what is the fact.	9:19 博：那么，如果你发现别人看起来对你很好，安慰你，讨好你，你就可能急着下结论：你可以完全信任他。那么，头脑现在就在寻找令它感觉舒服的想法，因为记忆中的感觉对整个系统造成很大的困扰，所以它首要的职能就是让头脑感觉好一点，而不是弄清楚事实如何。
9:45 H: Okay, so you're saying that at this point the mind isn't interested in what's true, it's interested in getting secure.	9:45 希：好，所以你是说这里的问题在于头脑对什么是真相不感兴趣，它感兴趣的是得到安全。
9:51 B: Yes, it's so disturbed that it wants to come to order first, and it's adopting a wrong way, as I see it.	9:51 博：是的，它太不安了，于是先要达成秩序，而在我看来，它采用了一种错误的方式。
9:58 H: The wrong way being?	9:58 希：什么错误的方式？
10:00 B: To think about it and try to find thoughts that will make it feel better.	10:00 博：去想，去试图找到一些让它感觉舒服的想法。
10:04 H: So you're saying that thoughts themselves in some sense are taking the place of reality, that the person is trying to get certain thoughts in his head that make him feel better.	10:04 希：所以你是说想法本身在某种意义上取代了现实，那个人试图在他的头脑中得到某些让自己感觉舒服的想法。
10:16 B: Yes. And that's self-deception.	10:16 博：是的。那是自欺。
10:24 S: What makes you think that the primary drive is for security?	10:24 谢：你为什么认为主要的驱动是对安全的需要？
10:28 B: Oh, we discussed that yesterday, of course, but I wouldn't be sure that's the only primary drive, but it's obvious, for the animal it's a very important drive to want security, right? We also want pleasure, I think that's another drive, which are closely related.	10:28 博：噢，我们昨天讨论过了，那是当然的，但我不确定那是唯一主要的驱动，但显然对动物来说，想得到安全是非常重要的一个驱动，对吧？我们还想要快乐，我觉得那是另一个紧密相关的驱动。
10:47 S: But to come back to this question of security, in its limited forms security is clearly one goal that we have. People like to have houses and have them secure, and cars, and possessions, and bank balances, and that kind of thing. But there's this factor that comes in, when you've got that, there are two things, actually, that come in, one is maybe the fear that you'll lose it, but the other is boredom with the whole thing and the craving for excitement and thrill. And this doesn't seem to fit within this model of this primary and central craving for security.	10:47 谢：但是回到这个安全的问题，在其有限的形式上，安全显然是我们的一个目标。人们喜欢拥有房子，拥有安全、车子、财产，喜欢银行存款余额，那一类的东西。不过如果你有了那样东西，这个因素就冒出来了，实际上会出现两种情况，一种可能是会害怕失去，另一种则是厌倦了所有的一切，渴望兴奋和刺激。这似乎不符合以安全为主要对象的渴望模式。
11:19 B: Well, that's why I said it's only one of the drives, right? That there's also the drive toward pleasure, as an example, much of what you said is included in the drive toward pleasure, right?	11:19 博：是啊，那就是为什么我说那只是驱动之一，对吧？比如，还有对快乐的渴望，你说的情况大部分就属于快乐驱动的，不是吗？
11:29 S: I'm not so sure.	11:29 谢：我不太肯定。
11:30 B: Excitement is pleasurable, and people hope for pleasure and excitement rather than pain, as a rule.	11:30 博：兴奋是快乐的，有个规则就是人们渴望快乐和兴奋，而不是痛苦。
11:37 S: But don't you think there's a pleasure in itself in curiosity, and there's a sense of freedom in discovery that you can get from certain kinds of exploration, which is neither just straightforward pleasure, it's not a repetitive kind of pleasure, nor is it security.	11:37 谢：但你不认为有种快乐本身是一种好奇，在某种探索中你取得了发现，在那当中存在着一种自由感，那既不仅仅是简单直接的快乐，不是那种重复性的快乐，也不是安全。
11:50 B: Yes, well, I didn't want to say that all our drives are caught in this thing, I said that if you think about them and base them on memory, then they are going to get caught in this problem. Now, there may be a natural, free interest in things which could be enjoyable, and that need not be a problem, right? But if you were to become dependent on it, and think about it, and say, 'If I don't have it I become very unhappy,' then it would be a similar problem.	11:50 博：是的，其实我说的并不是我们的全部驱动都限于那个东西，我是说如果你想着它们，让它们以记忆为基础，那么它们就会陷入那个问题。那么，也许存在一种对事物自然自如的兴趣，那也许是快乐的，那就不会成为一个问题，对吧？但如果你变得依赖它、牵挂它，你说： "如果没有它，我就会很不快乐，” 那就是同样的问题了。
12:17 K: But could we go into the question, what is security? What does that word convey? Apart from physical security.	12:17 克：不过我们可以来探究一下什么是安全吗？那个词指的是什么？先不说身体上的安全。
12:34 S: I would have said invulnerability.	12:34 谢：我会说是不被伤害。
12:38 K: Not to be hurt.	12:38 克：不受伤害。
12:40 S: Not to be hurt at all, not to be able to be hurt.	12:40 谢：完全不受伤害，不能被伤害。
12:43 K: Not to be able to be hurt and not to hurt. Physically we are all hurt one way or another - operations, illness, and so on, so on. When you talk about being hurt are you talking about psychological hurts?	12:43 克：不能被伤害以及不伤害他人。在身体上我们都因为这样那样的原因受过伤—— 手术、疾病等等等等。你谈到被伤害时，指的是心理伤害吗？
13:05 H: Yes, I'm wondering how it is that when a person comes into my office, his complaint is his psychological hurts.	13:05 希：是啊，我想知道那是怎样一种情形，当一个人进入我的办公室，他抱怨的就是他的心理伤害。
13:18 K: How do you deal with it?	13:18 克：你怎么处理这种情况？
13:19 H: I try and...	13:19 希：我尝试
13:21 K: Suppose, I come to you. I am hurt from childhood.	13:21 克：假设我来找你。我有童年的创伤。
13:24 H: Yes.	13:24 希：嗯。
13:26 K: I am hurt by the parents, school, college, university.	13:26 克：我受到父母、学校、学院、大学的伤害。
13:34 H: Yes.	13:34 希：嗯。
13:36 K: When I get married she says something, I am hurt. So, this whole living process seems to be a series of hurts.	13:36 克：我结婚后，她说的话伤害了我。所以，这整个生活过程似乎就是一系列的伤害。
13:44 H: It seems to build up a structure of self that is hurt, and a perception of reality that is inflicting hurt.	13:44 希：似乎是在建立一个受伤的自我结构，建立对造成伤害的现实的一种看法。
13:52 K: Yes. Now, how do you deal with it?	13:52 克：是的。那么，你怎么解决？
14:03 H: I try to help you see how you're doing it.	14:03 希：我尽力帮你看到你是怎么做的。
14:07 K: What do you mean, how I'm doing it?	14:07 克：我是怎么做的？什么意思？
14:09 H: Well, for example, if you have built up in you the notion that you're one down, or that you're the victim, then you perceive yourself to be victimised, and you perceive the world to be a victimiser. And I help you realise that that's what you're doing.	14:09 希：哦，比如，如果你建立了一个概念，你是一个失败者，或者你是一个牺牲品，于是你就会把自己看成是受害者，而把世界看成施害者。那么我就帮你认识到那就是你所做的事情。
14:35 K: But by showing me that, will I get rid of my hurt? My hurts, very deep unconscious hurts that I have make me do all kinds of peculiar actions, neurotic, isolating myself.	14:35 克：但是让我看到那些就能摆脱我的伤害吗？我的伤害，深层的无意识伤害，让我做出各种怪事，神经质的事情，孤立我自己。
14:58 H: Yes. It appears that people get better, that they realise that they are doing it. And in some local area it seems to help.	14:58 希：是的。当他们认识到他们在做什么，似乎就有好转。而且在某些局部领域，这种做法看起来是有帮助的。
15:11 K: No, but aren't you concerned, if I may ask, with not being able to hurt at all?	15:11 克：不是这个，可以的话我要问，难道你不关心怎样完全不受伤吗？
15:23 H: Yes.	15:23 希：关心。
15:24 B: What do you mean by that, not hurting somebody else or not hurting... not bing hurt inside of you.	15:24 博：那是什么意思，不伤害别人，或是不伤害…… 内心不被伤害。
15:29 K: I may hurt others unconsciously, unwillingly, but I wouldn't hurt voluntarily somebody.	15:29 克：我可能会无意地伤害到别人，但我不会故意去伤人。
15:37 B: Yes, you really don't intend to hurt anybody.	15:37 博：没错，你确实不会故意去伤害任何人。
15:39 K: Yes. I wouldn't.	15:39 克：是的，我不会。
15:42 S: Well, maybe not, but I don't see the connection between not hurting other people and not being hurt oneself. At least I'm sure there must be one, but it's not obvious. And most people's view of the best way not to be hurt would be to be in such a position that you can hurt others so much they'd never dare. This is the principle of nuclear retaliation, and this is a very common principle.	15:42 谢：好，也许不会，但我不明白不伤害他人和自己不受伤害之间有什么联系。至少我知道肯定有一点联系，但并不是显而易见的联系。而且大多数人认为，不受伤害的最好方式就是处于可以极大地伤害他人的地位，这样别人就不敢来伤害你了。这就是核反击的原则，这也是司空见惯的原则。
16:04 K: Yes, of course.	16:04 克：没错，当然。
16:06 S: So it's not obvious that not hurting others is related to not being hurt oneself. In fact, usually it's taken to be the reverse. It's usually assumed that if you're in a position to hurt others very much you'll be very secure.	16:06 谢：所以不伤害他人与自己不受伤害之间的联系并不明显。事实上，人们常常抱持相反的观点。人们通常假定如果你地位显赫，可以生杀予夺，你就会非常安全。
16:18 K: Of course, I mean if you're a king, or a sannyasi, or one of those people who have built a wall round themselves...	16:18 克：当然，我的意思是如果你是国王或托钵僧，或者那些在自己周围竖起高墙的人
16:25 S: Yes.	16:25 谢：是的。
16:26 K: ...naturally you can never hurt them.	16:26 克：……你自然永远伤不到他们。
16:28 S: Yes.	16:28 谢：是的。
16:30 K: But when they were children they were hurt.	16:30 克：但他们幼时曾被伤害。
16:32 S: Yes.	16:32 谢：是的。
16:34 K: That hurt remains. It may remain superficially or in the deep recesses of one's own mind. Now, how do you, as a psychologist, psychotherapist, help another, who is deeply hurt and is unaware of it, and to see if it is possible not to be hurt at all?	16:34 克：那伤害没有消失。可能留在表面，也可能留在一个人的意识深处。那么，作为一个心理学家、心理治疗师，你要怎样帮助别人，那些受伤很深，自己却没有意识到的人，并且看看是不是可能完全不受伤？
16:59 H: I don't address the question about is it possible to not be hurt at all. That doesn't come up.	16:59 希：我不会讨论可不可能完全不受伤的问题。那个问题不会出现。
17:04 K: Why? Wouldn't that be a reasonable question?	17:04 克：为什么？那不是一个合理的问题吗？
17:12 H: Well, it seems to be what we are asking here. It is the essence of the question that we're asking. We ask it in terms of particulars only in therapy, and you're asking it more generally, is it possible to end this hurt, period. Not just a particular hurt that I happen to have.	17:12 希：哦，那似乎是我们在这里问的问题。那是我们所问的问题的本质。我们只是特别针对治疗在问，而你从更普遍的意义上来问，可不可能结束这个伤害、这段时期。并不只是我恰好有的某个特定的伤害。
17:32 K: So, how should we proceed?	17:32 克：那么，我们该怎样继续讨论？
17:35 H: Well, it would seem that the structure that makes hurt possible is what we have to get at. What makes hurt possible in the first place, not this hurt or that hurt.	17:35 希：哦，我们得探讨一下是什么结构使伤害成为可能。首先，是什么使伤害成为可能，不是特定的这个伤害或那个伤害。
17:46 K: I think that's fairly simple. Why am I hurt? Because you say something to me which is not pleasant.	17:46 克：我觉得那个问题很简单。我为什么受伤？因为你对我说了一些不中听的话。
17:57 H: Well, why should that hurt you?	17:57 希：哦，为什么那会伤害你？
18:00 K: Because I have an image about myself as being a great man. You come along and tell me, don't be an ass. And I get hurt.	18:00 克：因为我对自己抱有一个意象，认为自己是个了不起的人。你却过来告诉我，别那么蠢！于是我受伤了。
18:10 H: What is it that's being hurt there?	18:10 希：那当中到底是什么受到了伤害？
18:13 K: There, the image which I have about myself. I am a great cook, a great scientist, a great carpenter, whatever you will. I have got that picture in myself, and you come along and put a pin into it. And that gets hurt. The image gets hurt. The image is me.	18:13 克：我对自己所抱持的意象。我是个了不起的厨师，了不起的科学家，了不起的木匠，不管什么。我内心有那个画面。而你过来刺痛了它。那个东西就受伤了。那个意象受伤了。那个意象就是我。
18:37 B: I feel that that will not be terribly clear to many people. How can I be an image, many people will ask. How can an image get hurt, because if an image is nothing at all, why does it hurt?	18:37 博：我感觉对很多人而言这种解释很模糊。很多人会问，我怎么会是一个意象。一个意象怎么会受伤，因为如果意象毫无实质内容，为什么会受伤？
18:49 K: Because I have invested into that image a lot of feeling.	18:49 克：因为我在那个意象中投入了很多的情感。
18:53 B: Yes.	18:53 博：嗯。
18:55 K: A lot of ideas, emotions, reactions - all that is me, that is my image.	18:55 克：很多的想法、情感、反应 ——那一切都是我，那就是我的意象。
19:03 H: It doesn't look like an image to me though, it looks like something real.	19:03 希：可是在我看来，那似乎并非一个意象，似乎是某些真实的东西。
19:08 K: Ah, of course, for most people it's very real.	19:08 克：啊，当然！对大多数人而言，那是非常真实的。
19:12 H: Yes.	19:12 希：是的。
19:13 K: But that is me, the reality of that image is me.	19:13 克：但那就是我，那个意象实际上就是我。
19:17 H: Yes. Well, can we get clear that it's an image and not real?	19:17 希：好。那么，我们能不能弄清楚那是一个意象，不是真的？
19:24 K: Image is never real; symbol is never real.	19:24 克：意象永远是假的，符号永远是假的。
19:28 H: You're saying that I'm just a symbol.	19:28 希：你是说我只是一个符号。
19:31 K: Perhaps.	19:31 克：也许。（笑）
19:37 H: That's a big step.	19:37 希：这是很大的进展。
19:43 K: From that arises the question whether it's possible not to have images at all.	19:43 克：从那一点引出一个问题：是否可能不抱持任何意象。
19:54 S: Well, wait a minute. I don't think we've clearly established that I am an image.	19:54 谢：哦，等一下，我认为我们还没有明确我是一个意象。
20:00 K: Ah, let's go into it.	20:00 克：啊，那就来探讨一下。
20:03 S: I mean, it's not entirely clear. I mean, it's obvious that to some extent one is an image, that when I have a feeling about myself, and so on. It's not entirely clear that this is entirely unjustified. You see, certain aspects of it may be exaggerated, certain aspects may be unrealistic, but, one approach would be, we've got to remove, shave off these unrealistic aspects, pare it down to sort of reasonable size. And then that which remains would be the real thing.	20:03 谢：我是说，并不是完全清楚了。我的意思是，显然在某个程度上我们是一个意象，当我对自己抱有某种感受时，等等。我们没有充分认识到这种做法完全不正当。你看，可能是某些方面被夸大了，某些方面可能是不真实的，然而，有一个方法是，我们得清除、剔除那些不真实的方面，把它减少到某种合理的程度。剩下的可能就是真东西了。
20:33 K: So, sir, are you raising the question, what am I?	20:33 克：那么，先生，你是在问，我是什么吗？
20:37 S: Well, I suppose so, yes.	20:37 谢：哦，我想是的。
20:39 K: Yes, basically. What are you? What is each one of us? What is a human being? That's the question that's involved.	20:39 克：好，基本上是这个意思。你是什么？我们每个人是什么？人是什么？那个问题涉及到这些。
20:51 S: Yes, that seems unavoidable.	20:51 谢：是的，似乎绕不过去。
20:53 K: Yes. What am I? I am the form, the physical form, the name, the result of all education.	20:53 克：是的。我是什么？我是这个形状，这个物质的形状，名字，全部教育的结果。
21:07 H: Your experience.	21:07 希：你的经验。
21:09 K: My experiences, my beliefs, my ideals, principles, the incidents that have marked me.	21:09 克：我的经验、我的信仰。我的理想、原则，在我身上打上烙印的所有事件。
21:22 H: The structures you've built up that are how you function.	21:22 希：你建立起来的行动结构。
21:24 K: Yes.	21:24 克：是的。
21:25 H: Your skills.	21:25 希：你的技能。
21:26 K: My fears, my activities, whether they are limited or my so-called affection, my gods, my country, my language, fears, pleasures, suffering - all that is me.	21:26 克：我的恐惧，我的行动，不管它们是不是局限的，或者我所谓的情感，我的神明，我的国家，我的语言、恐惧、快乐、痛苦 ——那一切都是我。
21:43 H: Yes.	21:43 希：是的。
21:45 K: That's my consciousness.	21:45 克：那是我的意识。
21:48 H: And your unconscious.	21:48 希：以及你的无意识。
21:50 K: That's my whole content of me.	21:50 克：那是我的全部内容。
21:53 H: Okay.	21:53 希：是的。
21:56 B: But there's still that feeling of actuality that me is there. I mean, you may say, you could reasonably argue that that's all there is to me, but when something happens there's the feeling of its actual presence, at that moment.	21:56 博：但那还是有一种“有我存在” 的真实感觉。我的意思是，你也许会说，你可以有力地论证， “我”就是那一切，但是当事情发生时，就会有一种真实的存在感，就在当时那一刻。
22:11 K: I don't quite follow you there.	22:11 克：我不太明白你的意思。
22:15 B: If somebody reacts to being hurt or angry, he feels at that moment that there's more than that, that there is something deep inside which has been hurt, right?	22:15 博：如果有人产生受伤或者生气的反应，那一刻他感觉到事情没有那么简单，就是受伤的是内心深处的某个东西，不是吗？
22:29 K: I don't quite see. My image can be such a deep... That's my image, at all levels.	22:29 克：我不觉得。我的意象可以是非常深层的东西，它可以在各个层面存在。
22:45 B: Yes, but how...	22:45 博：好，可怎样
22:47 K: Wait, sir, I have an image of myself, suppose, that I am a great poet, or a great painter, or a great writer. Apart from that image as a writer, I have other images about myself. I have an image about my wife, and she has an image about me, and there are so many images I've built around myself; and the image about myself also. So, I may gather a bundle of images.	22:47 克：等下，先生。假定我对自己抱有一个意象，我认为自己是个大诗人，或者大画家，或者大文豪。除了那个文豪的意象，我对自己还抱有其他意象。我对妻子抱有意象，而她对我也抱有意象，我对周遭的事物建立了非常多的意象，以及关于我自己的意象。所以，我可能积累了一大堆的意象。
23:23 B: Yes, I understand.	23:23 博：是的，我明白。
23:25 K: Partial.	23:25 克：明白一部分。
23:26 B: Yes, you are saying that there is nothing but this bundle of images.	23:26 博：是的，你的意思是除了一堆意象外，别无他物。
23:30 K: Of course!	23:30 克：显然！
23:31 B: But the question is how are we to see this as an actual fact?	23:31 博：但问题是我们如何看到这就是事实？
23:34 K: Ah.	23:34 克：啊。
23:36 S: But wait a minute, there is something but this bundle of images. I mean, I'm sitting right here, now, seeing you, and all the rest of it. Now, I have the feeling there's a centre of action or centre of consciousness, which is within my body and associated with it, which has a centre, and it's not you, and it's not you, and it's not David, it's me. And associated with this centre of action, my body, sitting here, is a whole lot of memories and experiences, and without those memories I wouldn't be able to speak, to talk, to recognise anything.	23:36 谢：不过等等，除了这一堆意象，其实还有东西。我是说，此刻我就坐在这里，看着你，诸如此类。那么，我感觉到有一个行为的中心或是意识的中心，就在我的身体里并与之相关，有一个中心，不是你，不是你，不是大卫，而是我。我的身体，坐在这里，跟那个行为中心相关的，是一大堆的记忆和经验，如果没有那些记忆，我就无法说话，无法交谈，无法辨识任何东西。
24:08 K: Of course, of course.	24:08 克：当然，当然。
24:09 S: So, there seems to be some substance to this image of myself. There may be false images associated with it, but there seems to be a reality which I feel as I sit here. So it's not entirely illusory.	24:09 谢：所以，自我的意象似乎含有某种实质的东西。与之相关的可能是一个错误的意象，但我坐在这里时我似乎感受到了一种真实。所以并非完全是虚假的。
24:21 K: Sir, are you saying that you are totally, basically different from the three of us?	24:21 克：先生，你的意思是你跟我们三个完全不同，根本不同吗？
24:27 S: Well, I'm in a different place and I have a different body.	24:27 谢：哦，我坐在不同的地方，我有不同的身体。
24:30 K: Of course.	24:30 克：当然。
24:31 S: And in that sense I'm different.	24:31 谢：在那个意义上我就是不同的。
24:32 K: Of course, I admit that, I mean, you're tall, I'm short, I'm brown, you're...	24:32 克：当然，那个我承认。我的意思是，你高，我矮，我是棕色人种，你是……
24:35 S: Yes.	24:35 谢：是的。
24:36 K: ...black, or you're white, or you're pink, or whatever it is.	24:36 克：……黑人或白人，或者你是粉色的，等等。
24:39 S: Now, at another level I'm not basically different in the sense that we can all speak the same language and communicate, so there's something in common. And at a purely physical level all of us have a lot in common with each other, the same kinds of enzymes, chemicals, and so on. And those indeed - hydrogen atoms, oxygen atoms - we have in common with everything else.	24:39 谢：那么，在另一个层面上我并非有根本的不同。我们都可以讲同一种语言，可以交流，所以有共同点。而且在纯粹的生理层面，我们彼此之间有很多共同点，一样的酶啊、化学物质等等。氢原子、氧原子—— 这些确实是我们跟所有东西的共同点。
24:58 K: Yes. Now, is your consciousness different from the rest? Consciousness, not bodily responses, bodily reactions, bodily conditioning, is your consciousness, that is your beliefs, your fears, your anxieties, depressions, faith - all that?	24:58 克：是的。那么，你的意识跟其他人不一样吗？是意识，不是身体的反应、身体的制约，你的意识，即你的信仰，你的恐惧，你的焦虑，你的忧愁、信念—— 那一切？
25:26 S: Well, I would say that many of the contents of my consciousness or many of the beliefs, desires, etc. I have, other people also have. But I would say the particular combination of experiences, memories, desires, etc. I have, are unique, because I've had a particular set of experiences, as you have and as everyone has, which makes a unique combination of these different elements.	25:26 谢：哦，我认为，我所具有的意识的很多内容或者我的很多信仰、欲望等等，其他人也有。但我觉得，我有的经验、记忆、欲望等等的特定组合，是独一无二的，因为我有的是特定的一套经验，就像你有你的，每个人有自己的，这些不同的因素形成了独一无二的组合。
25:46 K: So, is mine unique?	25:46 克：所以，我的经验是独一无二的？
25:47 S: Yes.	25:47 谢：是的。
25:48 K: So is his?	25:48 克：他的也是？
25:49 S: Exactly.	25:49 谢：正确。
25:50 K: The uniqueness makes it all common. It's no longer unique.	25:50 克：大家都独一无二。那就不再是独一无二了。
25:56 S: That's a paradox. It's not immediately clear.	25:56 谢：那是个悖论。并不是直接就显得那么清楚。
26:01 B: Why isn't it clear? Everybody's unique, right?	26:01 博：为什么不清楚？每个人都是独一无二的，不是吗？
26:04 S: Yes, we're all unique.	26:04 谢：是的，我们都是独一无二的。
26:05 K: I question that.	26:05 克：我质疑这一点。
26:06 S: We're not unique in the same way. Otherwise the word 'unique' becomes meaningless. If we're unique, each of us is unique, we have a unique set of experiences, environmental factors, memories, etc.	26:06 谢：我们独一无二的方式是不一样的。否则“独一无二”这个词就没有意义了。如果我们是独一无二的，我们每个人就都是独特的，我们有一套独一无二的经验、环境因素、记忆等等。
26:22 K: That's what you just now said, that's common lot to all of us.	26:22 克：这些你刚才都说了，那是我们所有人的共同点。
26:24 S: Yes, we all have it, but what we have is different.	26:24 谢：是的，我们都具有，但我们具有的内容是不同的。
26:28 K: Yes, you brought up in England, and perhaps another brought up in America, another brought up in Chile, we all have different experiences, different country, different views, different mountains, and so on.	26:28 克：是的，你在英国长大，而另一个人可能在美国，另一个在智利长大，我们都有不同的经验，不同的国家，不同的景色，不同的山川，等等。
26:44 S: Yes.	26:44 谢：是的，
26:47 K: But apart from the physical environment, linguistic differences, and accidents of experience, basically, fundamentally, deep down, we suffer, we are frightened to death, we are anxious, we have agony about something or other, and conflict - that's the ground on which we all stand.	26:47 克：但除了物质环境、语言差异以及经历的事件，从基本上、根本上，在深层次上，我们都痛苦，我们害怕死亡，我们焦虑，我们对某些东西愤怒，我们冲突—— 那是我们所有人共同的立足点。
27:17 S: But that doesn't seem a very startling conclusion.	27:17 谢：但那并不是多惊人的结论啊。
27:20 K: No, it is not.	27:20 克：不，不惊人。
27:22 B: But I think, what you are saying really implies that what we have in common is essential and fundamental rather than just superficial. And now, I've talked with people about this, and they say, everybody agrees, we all have these things in common, but sorrow, suffering, and so on, are not so important; the really important point are the higher achievements of culture and things like that, as an example.	27:22 博：但我认为，你的说法其实意味着我们的共同点是本质上的、根本上的，而非表面的。而我跟别人谈论过这些，他们说，他们每个人都同意，我们都有这些共同的东西，但悲伤、痛苦之类并没有多重要；真正重要的是文化上更高的成就，这一类的东西，以此为例。
27:48 H: Maybe the distinction is between the form and the content. Our contents are all different, and they have similarities and differences, but maybe the form is the same, the structure.	27:48 希：也许差别在于形式和内容之间的不同。我们的内容都是不一样的，有相似性和不同之处，不过也许形式、结构是一样的。
27:59 K: I would say contents are the same for all human beings.	27:59 克：我认为全人类的内容都一样。
28:03 S: But you see, I can recognise that there is such a thing as common humanity, but I would regard that quite possibly as an abstraction or a projection rather than a reality. How do I know that is not an abstraction?	28:03 谢：但你看，我可以认为有一个“全人类”存在，但我也完全可以把它看做一个抽象概念或一种投射，而不是一个事实。我怎么知道那不是一个抽象概念？
28:17 K: Because you go around the world, you see people suffer, you see human beings in agony, despair, depression, loneliness, lack of affection, lack of care, attention, that's the basic human reactions, that is part of our consciousness.	28:17 克：因为你走遍世界，你看到人们在受苦，你看到人类陷于痛苦、绝望、忧伤和孤独之中，缺乏爱、缺乏体贴和关怀，那就是人类基本的反应，那就是我们意识的一部分。
28:47 S: Yes.	28:47 谢：是的。
28:49 K: So, you are not basically different from me. You may be tall, you may be born in England, I may be born in Africa, I have a dark skin, but deep down the river the content of the river is the water. The river is not Asiatic river, or European river, it is a river.	28:49 克：所以，基本上你跟我没有什么不同。你可能长得高一点，你可能出生在英国，我出生在非洲，我的皮肤黑，但在河的深处，河的内容就是水。没有什么亚洲河、欧洲河，就是河。
29:21 S: Yes, well that is clearly true at some level. But I am not quite sure at what level, you see.	29:21 谢：是的，在某个层面，确实如此。但你看，我不确定是哪个层面上。
29:26 K: I am talking basically, deeply.	29:26 克：我说的是根本的东西、深层的东西。
29:31 S: But you see, it seems to me, why stop there? I can see something in common with all other human beings, but I can also by looking at animals see something in common with them. We have a great deal in common with the animals.	29:31 谢：但你知道，在我看来，那为什么就止于此了呢？我可以看到所有人类身上一些共同的东西，而通过观察动物，我也可以看到跟它们的一些共同之处。我们跟动物有不少相似之处。
29:45 K: Surely, surely.	29:45 克：当然，当然。
29:46 S: So why stop at human beings?	29:46 谢：所以为什么只说人类？
29:47 K: I don't.	29:47 克：我没有。
29:48 S: Why not say...	29:48 谢：为什么不说
29:49 K: Because I say if I feel... I don't like the word 'common.' One feels that is the ground on which all human beings stand. Their relationship with nature, animals, and so on, and the content of our consciousness is, again, the ground of humanity. Love is not English, American, or Indian. Hate is not, agony is not yours or mine, it is agony. But we identify ourselves with agony, it is my agony, which is not yours.	29:49 克：因为我说如果我感到我不喜欢“共同” 这个词。我觉得那是所有人类的根基。他们跟自然、动物等等的关系，而且我们意识的内容，同样，就是人类的根基。爱无所谓英国的、美国的或者印度的。仇恨也一样，痛苦无所谓你的或我的，它就是痛苦。但我们把自身跟痛苦相认同，那是我的痛苦，不是你的。
30:46 S: We might go through it in very different ways though.	30:46 谢：不过也许我们可以用截然不同的方式来检视这一点。
30:50 K: Different expressions, different reactions, but basically it is agony. Not German agony and Asiatic agony. It's not what is happening - British and Argentine, it is human conflict. Why do we separate ourselves from all this? The British, the Argentine, the Jew, the Arab, the Hindu, the Muslim. You follow? Which all seems so nonsensical, tribal. The worship of a nation is tribalism. So, why can't we wipe out all that?	30:50 克：不同的表达、不同的反应，但其根本就是痛苦。不是德国人的痛苦、亚洲人的痛苦。不在于发生的是什么—— 英国人、阿根廷人，它就是人类的冲突。为什么我们把自己与这一切分离开来？英国人、阿根廷人、犹太人，阿拉伯人、印度人、穆斯林。明白吗？这一切看起来毫无理性，充满部落主义色彩。崇拜国家就是部落主义。所以，为什么我们不能清除那一切？
31:37 S: I don't know. You tell me, why can't we?	31:37 谢：我不知道。你说吧，为什么我们不能？
31:40 K: Because, again, we have come back to the question: I identify with my nation, because that gives me a certain strength, certain standard, certain status, certain security. When I say, 'I am British'... So, this division is one of the reasons of war, not only economic, social, and all the rest of it. Nationalism, which is really glorified tribalism, is the cause of war. Why can't we wipe that out? It seems so reasonable.	31:40 克：因为，我们又要回到这个问题了：我认同我的国家，因为那带给我一种力量、一种标准、一种地位、一种安全。当我说： “我是英国人” 所以，这种划分就是战争的起因之一，并不只是经济、社会之类的因素造成了战争。国家主义，事实上是美化了的部落主义，那就是战争的起因。为什么我们不能清除它？理由看起来非常充分了。
32:28 H: It seems reasonable on a level like nationalism; people don't think they are England.	32:28 希：在国家主义这个层面上，理由是很充分，人们并不认为他们是英格兰。
32:35 K: Start from there.	32:35 克：就从那里开始。
32:36 H: Okay. But then I have a patient, and he does think that he is married and that it is his wife.	32:36 希：好的。可是，接着我有一个病人，他就是认为自己结婚了，而他的妻子有问题。
32:46 K: Yes. Of course, it is his wife.	32:46 克：嗯。当然，认为是他妻子的问题。
32:50 H: Well, isn't that the same action that you are talking about?	32:50 希：那么，这跟你说的不是同一种行为吗？
32:53 K: No, no. Sir, just let's go into it slowly.	32:53 克：不，不。先生，我们慢慢来。
32:59 H: Okay.	32:59 希：好的。
33:02 K: Why do I want to identify myself with something greater? Like nationalism, like god.	33:02 克：为什么我想跟某些更伟大的东西相认同？希：因为我不满足。
33:14 H: Because I don't feel sufficient.	33:14 克：比如国家主义，比如上帝。
33:16 K: Which means what?	33:16 希：我感到不满足。
33:18 H: Insecure.	33:18 克：那意味着什么？希：不安。
33:19 K: Insecure, insufficient, lonely, isolated. I have built a wall round myself.	33:19 克：不安、不满足、孤独、隔绝。我在周围竖起高墙。
33:29 H: Yes.	33:29 希：是的。
33:31 K: So, all this is making me desperately lonely. And out of that conscious or unconscious loneliness I identify with god, with the nation, with Mussolini - it doesn't matter - Hitler, or any religious teacher.	33:31 克：所以，这一切都造成我极度的孤独。由于那种有意无意的孤独，我认同于上帝、国家、墨索里尼，不管什么——希特勒或者任何宗教导师。
33:52 H: Okay. Or I get married, I have a job, I make a place for myself.	33:52 希：好吧。或者，我结婚了，有一份工作，有点地位。
33:56 K: Yes.	33:56 克：嗯。
33:58 H: And that's all also identification.	33:58 希：那一切也都是认同。
33:59 K: Yes. Why do we want to identify with something? No, the basic question is too, why do we want roots?	33:59 克：是的。为什么我们想要认同某些东西？不对，还有一个根本的问题：为什么我们要有根？
34:10 H: To belong.	34:10 希：要归属。
34:12 K: To belong, which is also implied to become.	34:12 克：要归属，也就是意味着要成为什么。
34:18 H: Yes.	34:18 希：是的。
34:21 K: So, this whole process of becoming, from childhood, I am asked to become, become, become. From the priest to the bishop, the bishop to the cardinal, the cardinal to the pope. And in the business world it is the same. In the spiritual world it is the same. I am this, but I must become that.	34:21 克：所以这整个“成为”的过程，从童年起，我就被要求成为、成为、成为。从牧师到主教，从主教到红衣主教，从红衣主教到教皇。在商业领域也是一样。在精神领域也是如此。我是这个，但我必须成为那个。
34:48 H: Okay, what I am is not sufficient.	34:48 希：是的，我的现状还不够好。
34:50 K: Why do we want to become? What is it that is becoming?	34:50 克：为什么我们想成为什么？那个要成为的是什么？
35:01 S: Any obvious reason for wanting to become is a feeling of insufficiency, inadequacy, in the state that we are. And one of the reasons for this is that we live in an imperfect world, our relations with other people are imperfect. We are not content for a variety of reasons with the way we are. So the way out of that seems to become something else.	35:01 谢：想要成为什么最明显的理由就是不满足感，觉得我们的现状不够好。原因之一就是我们生活在一个不完美的世界里，我们跟别人的关系是不完美的。对于我们现在的样子，有一大堆理由让我们感到不满意。所以成为其他什么似乎就是我们的出路了。
35:24 K: Yes. That means escaping from 'what is.'	35:24 克：是的。那意味着逃避“实然”。
35:30 S: Yes. But it may seem 'what is' is something we have a need to escape from, because there is something wrong with it.	35:30 谢：没错。但似乎 “实然”就是我们需要逃避的东西，因为它有问题。
35:36 K: All right. Take the usual experience. I am violent, and I have invented non-violence. Right? And I am trying to become that. I'll take years to become that. In the meantime I am violent. So, I have never escaped from violence. It is just an invention.	35:36 克：好。我们来看一个常见的经验。我是暴力的，然后我发明了非暴力。是不是？然后我努力变成那样。我会花很多年成为那样的人。与此同时我暴力依旧。所以，我从来没有摆脱暴力。那不过是一个臆想。
36:00 S: Well, you are trying to escape from it. You may escape in the end.	36:00 谢：哦，你尽力逃开它。也许最终你能逃掉。
36:06 K: No, I don't want to escape. I want to understand the nature of violence, what is implied in it, whether it is possible to live a life without any sense of violence.	36:06 克：不，我不想逃。我想了解暴力的本质，它蕴含的实质，我想了解可不可能过一种不含丝毫暴力的生活。
36:19 S: But what you are suggesting is a more effective method of escaping. You are not suggesting an abandoning the idea of escaping. You are suggesting that the normal way of escaping, trying to become nonviolent, is one way of doing it which doesn't work. Whereas if you do another method, where you actually look at the violence in a different way, you can become non-violent.	36:19 谢：但是你所建议的是一种更有效的逃避方法。你并不是在建议放弃逃避的想法。你提出，通常的逃避方法，即努力变得不暴力，是一种处理方式，但没有效果。然而如果你采取另一种方法，实际上你是在用不同的方式来看待暴力，你就能变得不暴力。
36:38 K: I am not escaping.	36:38 克：我没有在逃避。
36:40 S: Well, you are changing then.	36:40 谢：哦，不过你发生改变了。
36:42 K: No. I am violent.	36:42 克：不。我暴力。
36:43 S: Yes.	36:43 谢：嗯。
36:45 K: I want to see what is the nature of violence, how it arises.	36:45 克：我想看看暴力的本质是什么，它是怎么产生的。
36:50 S: But for what purpose?	36:50 谢：但目的是什么？
36:51 K: To see whether it is possible to be free of it completely.	36:51 克：为了了解是否有可能完全从暴力中解脱。
36:55 S: But isn't that a kind of escape from it?	36:55 谢：但那不就是一种逃避吗？
36:57 K: No.	36:57 克：不是。
36:58 S: Being free of something...	36:58 谢：从某些东西中解脱
36:59 K: ...is not an escape.	36:59 克：……并不是逃避。
37:00 S: Why not?	37:00 谢：为什么不是？
37:01 K: Avoidance, running away, fly away from 'what is' is an escape, but to say, look, this is what I am, let's look at it, let's observe what its content is. That is not escape!	37:01 克：躲开，逃开，避开 “实然”是一种逃避，但如果你说，看，我就是这样的，我们来看一下，来观察一下它的内容。那并不是逃避！
37:16 S: Oh, I see, the distinction you are making is that if you run away, and escape in a normal sense is running away from something, like escaping from prison, or one's parents, or whatever, but they still remain there. What you are saying is that rather than escaping from violence, which leaves violence intact and still there, and you try and distance yourself from it, you try to dissolve violence, or abolish it.	37:16 谢：噢，我明白了，你作出的区分在于，如果你逃避，通常意义上的逃避是远离某个东西，比如逃离监狱、逃离父母，诸如此类，但你仍然陷于其中。而你的意思是，不是逃避暴力，那只会令暴力原封不动，而是让自己抽离出来，试图消解暴力，或者除去它。
37:39 K: Dissolve.	37:39 克：消解。
37:40 S: Yes.	37:40 谢：是的。
37:41 K: Not abolish it, dissolve.	37:41 克：不是除去，而是消解。
37:42 S: All right. So this is different from escape, because you are trying to dissolve the thing rather than run away from it.	37:42 谢：好的。所以这不同于逃避，因为你试图消解那个东西，而不是逃避它。
37:51 K: Running away is... Everybody runs away.	37:51 克：逃避是…… 每个人都逃避。
37:57 S: Well, it usually works, to a limited extent.	37:57 谢：是啊，在有限的程度内，它通常是有效的。
37:59 K: No. It's like running away from my agony by going to football. I come back home, it is there! I don't want to go to watch football, but I want to see what violence is and see if it is possible to be completely free of it.	37:59 克：不对。那就像为了逃避痛苦我去看足球。等我一回到家，它还在那里！我不想看足球赛，但我想看看暴力是什么，想看看可不可能完全从中解脱。
38:24 S: If I am in a very unpleasant society and I can escape from it by defecting, or leaving it and going to another one. And this does in fact mean I escape to some extent.	38:24 谢：如果我身处一个非常糟糕的社会，而我可以逃离它，通过叛变，或者离它而去另一个国家。那这实际上也意味着某种程度的逃避。
38:34 K: Of course.	38:34 克：当然。
38:36 S: So these are always partial answers and they are partially effective.	38:36 谢：所以这些总是局部的解决方法，只是部分有效。
38:41 K: I don't want to be partially violent. Or partially free from it. I want to find out if it is possible to totally end it. That's not an escape, that's putting my teeth into it.	38:41 克：我不想局部暴力。或者局部解脱。我想搞清楚可不可能彻底结束它。那不是逃避，那是实实在在解决它。
38:56 S: Yes. But you have to believe it is possible in order to put your teeth into it.	38:56 谢：是的。不过你得相信那是可能的，不然你不会投入。
39:03 K: I don't know, I am going to investigate. I said, for me, I know one can live without violence. But that may be a freak, that may be a biological freak, and so on. But to discuss together, the four of us and see if we could be free of violence completely, means not escaping, not suppressing, not transcending it, and see what is violence. Violence is part of imitation, conformity. Right? Apart from physical hurts, I am not talking about that. So, psychologically there is this constant comparing, that is part of hurt, part of violence. So, can I live without comparison, when from childhood I have been trained to compare myself with somebody? I am talking comparison, not good cloth and bad cloth.	39:03 克：我不知道，我会探究。我说过，对我而言，我知道人可以没有暴力地生活。不过那也许是个怪胎，一个生物学上的怪胎，如此等等。但要一起讨论，我们四个一起观察，看看我们能否彻底从暴力中解脱，并不是逃避，不是压抑它、转化它，而是看看什么是暴力。暴力是模仿和遵从的一部分。对吗？先不说生理创伤，我谈的不是那个。所以，在心理上我们一直在不停地比较，那就是创伤的一部分，暴力的一部分。所以，我的生活可以没有比较吗？虽然从儿时起，我就已经学会了跟人比。我谈的不是比较哪块布好，哪块布差。
40:16 H: Right. Talking about comparing myself.	40:16 希：没错。谈的是比较自己。
40:19 K: Myself with you who are bright, who are clever, who have got publicity. When you say a word the whole world listens. And I can shout, nobody cares. So, I want to be like you. So, I am comparing constantly myself with something I think is greater.	40:19 克：我跟你谁聪明，谁伶俐，谁更受人瞩目。如果你说一句话，整个世界都侧耳倾听。而我大喊大叫也没人理。所以，我想跟你一样。所以，我不停地拿自己跟某些更伟大的东西比。
40:42 H: So, this is where becoming comes from, this comparison.	40:42 希：所以，这个比较，就是“成为”的起因。
40:45 K: That's just it. So, can I live without comparison?	40:45 克：对了。所以，我可以在生活中不作比较吗？
40:50 H: Doesn't that leave me in an insufficient state?	40:50 希：那不会令我陷于不满足的境地吗？
40:53 K: No. To live without comparison? No.	40:53 克：不会。不作比较地活着？不会的。
40:57 H: Here I start off insufficient...	40:57 希：那我就从不满足开始讲
41:00 K: You understand, sir? Am I dull because I compare myself with you, who are bright?	41:00 克：你明白吗，先生？不是因为我跟聪明的你比较，我才显得笨吗？
41:05 H: Yes. Yes, you are dull because you compare yourself.	41:05 希：是的。是的，你笨是因为你在作比较。
41:10 K: By comparing myself with you, who are bright, who are clever, I become dull. I think I am dull.	41:10 克：拿我自己跟聪明伶俐的你比，我就变笨了。我就认为自己笨了。
41:15 H: Yes.	41:15 希：没错。
41:17 K: But if I don't compare I am what I am.	41:17 克：但如果我不作比较，我就是我。
41:20 S: Well, you may not compare but I may compare. I may say, 'You are dull'.	41:20 谢：可是，也许你不作比较，可我会比，我可能会说：“你是个笨蛋”。
41:25 K: All right. I say, 'All right'. You say I am dull. I say, 'Am I?' I want to know what does it mean. Does it mean he is comparing himself with me, who is... - you follow? the reverse of it!	41:25 克：那好，我会说：“好吧。” 你说我笨，我反问：“有吗？” 我想知道那句话是什么意思。是他在跟我比较吗？他…… ——你明白吗？（笑）正好相反。
41:39 S: Very frustrating, that. Yes. I mean, if one compared oneself with somebody and said, 'You are dull', and then they said, 'What does dullness mean?'	41:39 谢：那真令人泄气。是的。我的意思是，如果我们拿自己跟别人比，说“你是个笨蛋”，然后对方说，“笨是什么意思？！“（笑）
41:53 K: The other day, after one of the talks in England a man came up to me and said, 'Sir, you are a beautiful old man, but you are stuck in a rut'. I said, 'Well, sir, perhaps, sir, I don't know, we'll go into it'. So I went up to my room and said, 'Am I?' Because I don't want to be stuck in a rut. I may be. So, I went into it very, very carefully, step by step, and found what does a rut mean - to stick in a groove along a particular line. Maybe, so I watch it. So, observation of a fact is entirely different from the escaping or the suppression of it.	41:53 克：有一天在英国，结束一个演讲后，有个人过来跟我说： “先生，您是位相貌庄严的长者，但您墨守陈规。 ” 我说：“哦，先生，也许如此，先生，我不知道，我们来探讨一下。 ” 所以我就走进我的房间然后问：“我有吗？ ” 因为我不想墨守陈规。我也许是那样的。所以，我非常非常仔细地探究起来，一步一步，发现 “陈规”的意思是——沿着特定的路线守着老一套。也许是那样，所以我来审视这一点。所以，观察一个事实跟逃避或者压抑是截然不同的。
42:45 H: So, he says you are stuck in a rut, and you observe it, you don't compare.	42:45 希：所以，他说你墨守陈规，而你作了观察，却没有比较。
42:50 K: I don't. Am I in a rut? I look. I may be stuck in a rut, because I speak English. I speak Italian and French. All right. And that's not… Am I psychologically, inwardly, caught in a groove, like a tram car?	42:50 克：没有。我墨守陈规吗？我观察。我也许墨守陈规，因为我讲英语。我讲意大利语和法语。好吧。而那不是在内心，在心理上，我墨守陈规吗？像有轨电车一样？
43:16 H: Just motivated by something and not understanding it.	43:16 希：只是被某个东西推动着，但对它不清不楚。
43:19 K: No, am I? I don't know, I am going to find out. I am going to watch. I am going to be terribly attentive, sensitive, alert.	43:19 克：不，我有吗？我不知道，我会去搞清楚它。我会去观察。我会非常留心、非常敏锐、警觉。
43:32 H: Now, this requires that you are not reacting in the first place by saying 'No, that's horrible, I couldn't possibly be stuck in a rut'.	43:32 希：那么，这就要求你在第一时间不起反应，不说 “不，那太糟糕了，我决不能墨守陈规。”
43:39 K: I wouldn't. You may be telling the truth.	43:39 克：我不会。也许你说的是事实。
43:50 H: To not have that reaction you can't have that self there that says, 'I am not the type of person that is stuck in ruts'.	43:50 希：要不起反应，你就不能有个自我在那里说： “我不是那种墨守陈规的人。”
43:56 K: I don't know. Sir, is there a learning about oneself, which is not... - this leads to something else, I mustn't go into it - which is not constant accumulation about myself? I don't know if I am making myself clear.	43:56 克：我不知道。先生，有没有一种对自己的了解，它不是 ——导向某个别的东西，我不能详细讲这个问题了—— 并不是持续地积累对自己的认识？不知道我有没有说清楚。
44:25 H: Yes.	44:25 希：我明白。
44:28 K: I observe myself.	44:28 克：我观察自己。
44:30 H: Yes.	44:30 希：嗯。
44:31 K: And I have learnt from that observation something. And that something is being accumulated all the time by watching. I think that is not learning about yourself.	44:31 克：我从观察中了解到一些东西。那了解到的东西在观察的过程中一直被积累着。我认为那不是了解自己。
44:44 H: Yes. It's being concerned with what you think about yourself.	44:44 希：没错。那是你认为自己怎样。
44:48 K: Yes, what you think about yourself, what you have gathered about yourself.	44:48 克：是，你认为自己怎样，你积累的关于自己的知识。
44:53 H: Yes.	44:53 希：没错。
44:57 K: Like a river that is flowing, you have to follow it. That leads somewhere else. Let's get back.	44:57 克：像川流不息的河水，你得跟随它。那是另一回事了。我们回过来说。
45:06 H: Maybe this is part of the question we are asking, because we start with how does this disorder occur.	45:06 希：也许那跟我们在谈的问题有关，因为我们一开始谈的是这种失序是怎样发生的。
45:12 K: Yes, sir, let's stick to that.	45:12 克：是的，先生，我们不要偏离那个问题。
45:15 H: It occurs because I have the image of myself of someone who knows he is not stuck in a rut. I don't like to think that I am stuck in a rut, and somebody says, 'Yes, you are.'	45:15 希：它之所以发生，是因为我对自己抱有一个意象，知道自己不是一个墨守陈规的人。我不想认为自己墨守陈规，不喜欢听到别人说：“你就是那样的。”
45:25 K: But you may be.	45:25 克：但你也许真那样。
45:27 H: Yes. I have to be open to looking, to see.	45:27 希：是的。我得保持开放，愿意去观察、去看。
45:30 K: Yes, to observe.	45:30 克：是的，去观察。
45:32 S: But then what about this approach: somebody says I am stuck in a rut, I look at myself and think, 'Yes, I am stuck in a rut' and then I can respond by thinking, what's wrong with that? Everyone is stuck in a rut.	45:32 谢：那么这方法怎么样：有人说我墨守陈规，我反观自己并认为： “是的，我墨守陈规，” 然后接下来我的反应是想：这有什么错？每个人都墨守陈规。
45:46 K: Sir, that's just blind.	45:46 克：先生，那纯粹是盲目。
45:47 S: No, you accept the fact, but then you think, 'Why should I do anything about it?' What's wrong with that as an approach?	45:47 谢：不，你接受了事实，然后你想： “为什么我该有所改变？ ” 那作为一种应对方式，有什么错？
45:55 K: Like a man stuck as a Hindu, he is stuck. He is then contributing to war.	45:55 克：就像有人守着印度教徒的身份，并困于其中。那么他就是在为战争助阵。
46:03 S: I may say, well, I am stuck in a rut, but so is everybody, it is the nature of humanity to be stuck in ruts.	46:03 谢：我可能会说，哦，我墨守陈规，可每个人都一样，墨守陈规是人类的本性。
46:10 K: You see, that's it, you go off, that is the nature of humanity. But I question that. If you say that is the nature of humanity, let's change it, for god's sake!	46:10 克：你看，就是这样，你偏离了，这是人类的本性。可我质疑这一点。如果你说那是人类的本性，看在老天的份上，那就改变它！
46:22 S: But you may believe it is unchangeable. What reason have I for believing that we can change it? I may think that I am stuck in a rut, so are you, so is everybody else. And anyone who thinks they are not is deceiving themselves.	46:22 谢：不过你可能相信那是改变不了的。我有什么理由相信我们可以改变这一点？我可能觉得我墨守陈规，你也一样，每个人都一样。谁觉得他们不是，那不过是自欺欺人。
46:34 K: It's cheating themselves. I may cheat, so I begin to enquire - am I cheating myself? I want to be very honest about it. I don't want to cheat, I don't want to be a hypocrite.	46:34 克：他们在自欺欺人。也许我在自欺欺人，那我就开始探究 ——我在自欺吗？对此我希望自己非常坦白。我不想欺骗，我不想做伪君子。
46:46 S: You may not be a hypocrite, you may think, 'I am stuck in a rut', and you may be a pessimist. The alternative to being a hypocrite is a pessimist.	46:46 谢：你也许不是伪君子，你也许会想：“我墨守陈规”，然后你可能是个悲观主义者。如果不做伪君子，就做悲观主义者。
46:54 K: No, I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist. I say, 'Look, am I stuck in a rut?' I watch all day.	46:54 克：不，我既不是悲观主义者，也不是乐观主义者。我说：“看看，我墨守陈规吗？ ” 我整天都在观察。
47:04 S: And you perhaps conclude, 'Yes'. But then you can take the pessimistic cause and say, 'Yes, I am, but so what?'	47:04 谢：然后你也许得出一个结论： “是的。”不过你可以用一个悲观的理由开解自己： “我就是这样，那又怎么了？”
47:14 K: If you prefer that way of living, go ahead. But I don't want to live that way.	47:14 克：如果你喜欢那种生活方式，尽管继续。但我不喜欢活成那样。
47:22 H: Well, the person who comes into therapy usually comes with both sides going on at the same time. He says that I have this problem which I want to be free of, I don't want to be stuck in a rut; on the other hand, when it gets down to really looking at that, he doesn't want to look at it either, because it becomes uncomfortable.	47:22 希：哦，不过来治疗的人通常同时有着两种心态。他说我有这个问题，我想摆脱它，我不想一成不变，另一方面，临到要好好审视一下问题时，他却不想审视了，因为那感觉不舒服。
47:43 K: Of course. So, to come back to your original question, the world is in disorder, human beings are in disorder, and we described what is disorder. And is there a possibility to live free from disorder? That is the real basic question. We said as long as there is this divisive process of life - I am a Hindu, you are an Arab, I am a Buddhist, you are a Muslim, I am British, you are an Argentine - there must be conflict, war. My son is going to be killed, for what?	47:43 克：当然。所以，我们回到你最初的问题，世界失序，人类失序，我们描述了什么是失序。而有没有可能让生活从失序中解脱呢？这是真正根本的问题。我们说，只要人生有这种分裂的过程， ——我是印度人，你是阿拉伯人，我是佛教徒，你是穆斯林，我是英国人，你是阿根廷人—— 那就一定会有冲突和战争。我的儿子会被杀死，为什么？
48:39 H: For as long as I identify on a personal level with my job, or with my family, and so on, there will be pain.	48:39 希：因为只要我在个人层面认同我的工作，或者我的家庭等等，就会有痛苦。
48:46 K: Of course.	48:46 克：当然。
48:47 H: It is the same process.	48:47 希：这是同样的过程。
48:48 K: So, is it possible to have, without identification, responsibility?	48:48 克：所以，可不可能不抱有这种认同的责任？
48:56 H: If I am not identified will I even go to work?	48:56 希：如果我不认同，我还会去工作吗？
48:59 K: But I am responsible for the lady whom I am married. Responsible in the sense that I have to look after her, care for her, and she has to care for me. Responsibility means order. But we have become totally irresponsible by isolating ourselves - British, French.	48:59 克：但我对我娶的女士负有责任。责任的意思是，我要照顾她，关心她，而她也要关心我。责任意味着秩序。然而我们因为孤立自己而变得毫无责任感了 ——英国人、法国人。
49:27 H: We handle the problem of responsibility by developing a rut that we can work in.	49:27 希：我们发展出一个常规，藉此处理责任的问题。克：没错。就是这样。
49:32 K: Yes. That's it.	49:32 希：然后死守不放。
49:33 H: And staying inside that.	49:33 克：如果我看到事实，即责任就是秩序
49:40 K: If I see the fact that responsibility is order - I am responsible to keep this house clean - but as we all live on this earth, it is our earth, not British earth, and French earth, and German earth, it is our earth to live on. And we have divided ourselves, because in this division we think there is security.	49:40 ——我有责任清理房子—— 但既然我们都生活在这个地球上，这是我们的地球，不是英国的地球，不是法国的地球、德国的地球，这是我们赖以生存的地球。然而我们划分彼此，因为我们以为这种划分很安全。
50:14 H: There is stability and security.	50:14 希：稳定而安全。
50:16 K: Security. Which is no security at all.	50:16 克：安全。其实毫不安全。
50:21 H: Well, it isn't clear, we have got to go slow, because I think that my job is security, I think that my family is security.	50:21 希：不过，这一点没用阐释清楚。我们得慢慢推进，因为我认为我的工作即安全，我认为我的家庭即安全。
50:29 K: You may lose it.	50:29 克：你可能失去它。
50:31 H: That problem keeps coming up.	50:31 希：那种问题总是会发生。
50:32 K: There is great unemployment in America and in England, three million people unemployed in England.	50:32 克：美国和英国的失业情况很严重，英国有三百万人没有工作。
50:39 H: Or maybe I could get by without my job, but I need to think that I have some self respect.	50:39 希：或者也许没工作我也可以对付，但我需要考虑我是有自尊的。
50:45 K: What do you mean, self respect?	50:45 克：自尊，你是指什么？
50:47 H: What I am trying to say is that there is some place at which I put an identification.	50:47 希：我想说的是，我认同某个东西。
50:52 K: Why should I want to identify with anything, sir? That makes immediate isolation.	50:52 克：先生，为什么我想认同任何东西？那会立即造成隔绝。
51:04 H: For stability's sake.	51:04 希：为了安定。
51:08 K: Does isolation bring about stability?	51:08 克：隔绝会带来安定吗？
51:12 H: It gives one a sense of something hard and firm.	51:12 希：会给人一种稳固坚定的感觉。
51:15 K: Does it? Has it? We have had for the last five thousand years nearly five thousands wars. Is that stability?	51:15 克：是吗？有吗？过去五千年几乎有五千场战争。那是安定吗？
51:34 H: No.	51:34 希：不是。
51:35 K: Why don't we accept... I won't go into all that. What is wrong with us?	51:35 克：为什么我们不接受那些我就不细谈了。我们到底怎么了？
51:41 H: Well, why don't we see this thing? You are saying that the root of the problem is that I continue to identify with one thing after another, if one doesn't work I just find something else. I don't stop identifying.	51:41 希：那我们为什么看不到这件事？你是说问题的根源在于我不断地认同，一个接一个地认同，如果一个不管用就找别的。我不停地认同。
51:52 K: Yes, sir, which breeds isolation.	51:52 克：是的，先生，这导致了隔绝。
51:56 H: But in your example about the person that is stuck in a rut, you say, 'I don't have to identify, I can just step back and look at this thing, and see if it is true'.	51:56 希：但在你举的墨守成规的例子中，你说：“我不必认同，我只要退一步，观察那个东西，看看是不是真的。”
52:07 K: Yes.	52:07 克：没错。
52:08 H: So, you are suggesting that there is something that is not identified, something that is free to look.	52:08 希：所以，你提出有些东西是无法认同的，有些东西可以自由地去看。
52:15 K: No. This leads to something else. Why do I want to identify myself? Probably, basically, the desire to be secure, to be safe, to be protected. And that sense gives me strength.	52:15 克：不是的。那会引向另一些东西。为什么我想认同自己？可能是，基本上是因为想要安全，想要平安，想要得到保护。而那种感觉带给我力量。
52:37 H: Strength, and purpose, direction.	52:37 希：力量、目的和方向。
52:40 K: It gives me strength.	52:40 克：那带给我力量。
52:41 H: Yes.	52:41 希：是的。
52:43 S: But this is a biological fact. It is not merely an illusion. And if we again, to come back to the animal kingdom, we see it there - deer go round in flocks, birds have flocks, bees have hives and they are identified with the hive in which they work.	52:43 谢：但这是生物学事实。并不只是个幻觉。如果我们再回到动物王国，我们看到那里 ——鹿和鹿群居，鸟有鸟群，蜜蜂有蜂巢，它们认同它们工作的蜂巢。
52:58 K: But bees don't kill themselves, species don't kill themselves.	52:58 克：但蜜蜂不会自相残杀，那些物种不会自相残杀。
53:04 S: Well, they kill other, they kill other bees that invade their hive. They don't commit suicide. They kill others.	53:04 谢：不过，它们会杀别的群体，它们会杀侵犯它们蜂巢的蜜蜂。它们不会自杀。它们杀别的蜜蜂。
53:10 K: But we are!	53:10 克：但我们会！
53:12 S: Yes and no, bees do fight other bees that come into the hive.	53:12 谢：也是也不是。别的蜜蜂来犯，就一定会打起来。
53:16 K: Of course. Yes, I know, I've raised bees, I know.	53:16 克：当然。是的，我知道，我养过蜜蜂，我知道。
53:19 S: So, we see even in the animal kingdom this identification with the group, in the social animals, and many social animals, and we are social animals.	53:19 谢：所以，我们看到即使在动物王国，这种对群体的认同，在群居动物当中，很多群居动物当中都有这种现象，而我们就是群居动物。
53:29 K: Just a minute. Agree. Are we by identifying ourselves with India, or China, or Germany, is that giving us security?	53:29 克：等下。我同意。我们自己认同印度或者中国、德国吗？那会令我们感到安全吗？
53:43 S: To a limited extent it is.	53:43 谢：在有限的程度上是的。
53:44 K: A limited extent.	53:44 克：很有限。
53:45 S: And by identifying ourselves with our families does, because this whole question of responsibility seems closely linked to it. If I identify myself with my family, feel duties towards them, protect - if my sister's insulted, I rush to her defence, and make a big fuss about it, and threaten, if not actually kill, the people who insulted her.	53:45 谢：而且认同家庭也会令我们感到安全，因为整个关于责任的问题看起来也是密切相关的。如果我认同家庭，感到对他们负有责任，要挺身保护——如果我的姐妹受辱，我冲出来护住她，小题大做，发出威胁，如果不是真的要杀死侮辱她的人的话。
54:07 K: We have no sisters.	54:07 克：我们没有姐妹。（笑）
54:10 S: Yes, fortunately not.	54:10 谢：是啊，所幸没有。
54:13 S: So, if I protect members of my family and defend, rush to their defence, so an insult to them or an attack on them is an insult to me, so I rush to their defence.	54:13 谢：所以，如果我保护我的家人，为他们挺身而出，那么对他们的侮辱或攻击就是对我的侮辱，所以我为他们挺身而出。
54:24 K: Of course.	54:24 克：当然。
54:25 S: There is a reciprocal obligation on their part, if I fall ill or sick they'll feed me and look after me, if I get arrested by the police they will try and get me out of prison, and so on. So, it does give me a kind of security, it actually works.	54:25 谢：他们也负有同样的义务，如果我病了或不舒服，他们会给我吃饭、照顾我，如果我被警察抓了，他们会努力把我从监狱里救出来，如此等等。所以，这确实给了我一种安全，那的确是有用的。
54:37 K: Of course.	54:37 克：当然。
54:39 S: And that is a very good reason for doing it, for most people.	54:39 谢：对大多数人而言，那个理由足够充分了。
54:41 K: But stretch it further from the family, to the community, from the community to the nation, and so on, that is a vast process of isolating. You are English, I am German, and we are at each other's throat. And I say, for god's sake, this is so damn stupid!	54:41 克：但是我们扩大范围来看，从家庭扩大到社区，从社区扩大到国家，等等，那是一个大范围的孤立过程。你是英国人，我是德国人，我们跟彼此过不去。而我要说，天啊，这实在太蠢了！
55:04 S: Well, it is not entirely stupid because it works to a certain extent.	55:04 谢：哦，没那么蠢吧，因为某个程度上那么做是有用的。
55:08 K: This is most impractical. It may work, but it's impractical, it is killing each other.	55:08 克：那是最不实际的。也许起点作用，然而并不实际，我们在互相残杀。
55:14 S: But we haven't killed each other yet, there are more human beings than there have ever been before. So the system so far has gone to the point where we are far from killing each other, we have actually got to the point where we have got a bigger population than the world has ever seen. So, the system works only too well, for some reason.	55:14 谢：但我们还没有杀掉彼此，现在的人口比起以往任何时候都多。所以这个系统到目前为止是可行的，我们远没有杀光彼此，实际上我们的人口在增长，现在是世界上人口最多的时代。所以，这个系统只是运行得太好了，因为某些原因。
55:33 K: So, you propose war to kill them off?	55:33 克：所以，你建议来场战争把他们给杀光？
55:37 S: No! But there is some aspect of it that does work, and some security that is genuine that these things confer.	55:37 谢：当然不是！而是在某个方面，它的确起作用，而且这些东西带来了一些真正的安全。
55:46 K: Yes, sir. At a certain level, identification has a certain importance. Right? But at a higher level, if you can call it higher, it becomes dangerous. That's all we are saying. Of course, if you are my brother you look after me.	55:46 克：没错，先生。在某个层面上，认同有一定的重要性。是吧？但在更高的层面，如果可以这么说的话，它就变得危险了。我们在说的就是这个。当然，如果你是我的兄弟，你照顾我。
56:08 B: It is very hard to draw the line, you see, that starts spreading out.	56:08 博：很难分出一个界限，你看，那种认同开始蔓延。
56:13 K: That's right, spreading out.	56:13 克：没错，蔓延开来。
56:15 B: You know, it slips.	56:15 博：你知道，它会偷偷越界。
56:16 K: That's is what I am so objecting to.	56:16 克：那就是我坚决反对的。
56:19 S: But you see, the question is where do you draw the line, because if you are my brother, then you have the tribal, the clan, or in India, the caste.	56:19 谢：但你看，问题在于你的界限在哪里，因为如果你是我的兄弟，你就会有一个部落、氏族或者印度的种姓。
56:26 K: That's it. Extend it. And then we say, 'I am Argentine, you are British, he's French', economically, socially, culturally, we are murdering each other. And I say, that is so insane!	56:26 克：没错。把范围扩大。然后我们就说： “我是阿根廷人，你是不列颠人，他是法国人，我们敌视彼此在经济上、社会上、文化上，我们在谋杀彼此。而我认为，那真是疯狂！
56:44 S: But where do you draw the line? If you say the nation state is wrong, then what is wrong with the tribe or the caste, then you have got conflict between those. We've got conflict between families.	56:44 谢：但你的界限在哪里？如果你说民族国家是错的，那部落或种姓有什么错呢，那中间也有冲突。家庭跟家庭之间也有冲突。
56:54 K: I wouldn't draw the line. I say, I am responsible as a human being for what is happening in the world, because I am a human. And so what is happening in the world is this terrible division, and I won't be a Hindu, I won't be a Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist - nothing. If there were a hundred people or a thousand people like that they would begin to do something.	56:54 克：我不会划分界限。我认为，作为人类，我为这个世界发生的一切负责，因为我是一个人。所以，这个世界就处于这样可怕的分裂中，我不会去做一个印度教徒，我不会去做一个天主教徒、新教徒、佛教徒——一概不做。如果有一百人或一千人能够这样，他们就会开始做一些事。
57:26 H: So you are saying that the problem comes up, because I mistake my local security, I think that it rests in some local identification.	57:26 希：所以你的意思是，问题出现是由于我对自己局部安全的错误理解，我认为那寄托于某些局部的认同中。
57:35 K: Yes, sir, which is isolation. And therefore in isolation there is no security. And therefore there is no order.	57:35 克：是的，先生，那即是隔绝。因此在隔绝当中，没有安全。因此也没有秩序。

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