Krishnamurti Subtitles home


OJ82CNM3 - 对安全的需要
与博姆、希德利和谢尔德雷克各位博士的第三次讨论
加州，欧亥
1982年4月17日



0:05 The Nature of the Mind 希：心的本质
0:16 Part Three 第三部分
0:19 The Need for Security 对安全的需要
0:29 This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley. The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions about the mind, what is psychological disorder, and what is required for fundamental psychological change. 这是J·克里希那穆提与 大卫·博姆、鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克和约翰·希德利进行的系列对话之一。 这些讨论旨在探索最根本的 心灵问题，即何为心理失序， 以及彻底的心理转变需要什么。
0:49 J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator, who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years. He has founded elementary and secondary schools in the United States, England, and India. J·克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲人、作家和教育家， 他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。 他在美国、英国和印度 建立了几所小学和中学。
1:02 David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics at Birkbeck College, London University in England. He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics and the nature of consciousness. Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti have held previous dialogues on many subjects. 大卫·博姆是理论物理学教授， 就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。 他著有多部著作，论述理论物理学 和意识的本质。 博姆教授和克里希那穆提先生 之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
1:20 Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book proposes that learning in some members of a species affects the species as a whole. Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist to the International Crops Research Institute in Hyderabad, India. 鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家，新近发表了一部著作， 提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程 将会影响整个物种。 谢尔德雷克博士现在担任 位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的 顾问植物生理学家。
1:38 John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice, who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California for the past six years. 约翰·希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生， 与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校 六年来一直联系密切。
1:47 In the first two dialogues consideration has been given to the process of self identification. A range of subjects has been related to this process including the problem of suffering, the role of thinking and memory, images, and the uniqueness or commonality of consciousness. Can these processes be observed, and what is the relationship of observation to order, responsibility and change? Today's discussion focuses on the question: is there such a thing as absolute psychological security? 在前两次对话中，主要考虑的是 自我认同的过程。 与这个过程有关的一系列话题 包括痛苦的问题、 思考和记忆的作用、 意象以及意识的独特性或共性。 能否观察这些过程，观察与秩序、责任和转变之间 有着怎样的关系？ 今天的讨论集中在这个问题上： 有没有绝对的心理安全这回事？
2:21 H: We would like to talk about the question of whether there is a deep security, whether the self can be dissolved. You have suggested that if that's possible, then the problems that the individual brings to the office, the problems... 希：我们想探讨一下这个问题，即有没有 一种深刻的安全，自我能否被消除。 你曾经说过 如果这是可能的，那么 个人带到办公室去的那些问题，那些问题
2:41 K: Sir, why do we seek security, apart from physical? Apart from terrestrial security, why do we want security? 克：先生，我们为什么追求身体安全之外的安全呢？ 除了生存安全之外， 我们为什么想得到安全？
2:55 H: Well, we know moments of peace and happiness, and we want to stabilise that and hold that. 希：哦，我们知道有些时刻是和平的、快乐的， 我们想把那样的状态稳定下来并且留住。
3:02 K: Then that becomes a memory. 克：然后那就变成了记忆。
3:05 H: Yes.

K: Not actual security. A memory that one day you were happy, and I wish one could go back to it. Or you project an idea and a hope someday to achieve it. But why is it that human beings, probably throughout the world, seek security? What is the raison d'être, if I may put it, the demand for security? What makes people ask for security, psychologically? 		希：是的。

克：那不是真正的安全。 记得有一天你很快乐， 而我希望能够重返那个时刻。 或者你投射出一个想法，希望哪天能够将它实现。 但是，为什么全世界的人类 都追求安全呢？其缘由何在， 如果我可以提出这个问题的话，为什么存在对安全的需要？ 是什么使得人们寻求心理上的安全？
3:44 H: Well, they're occupied, they're filled with their problems. There's the feeling that if I can solve the problem, if I can find out what the right answer is, if... 希：哦，他们被自己的问题所占据、所充满。 有一种感觉认为，如果我能解决这个问题， 如果我能找到正确的答案是什么，如果
3:58 K: That's not security, surely. There is great uncertainty, great sense of emptiness in oneself, loneliness. Really, loneliness - let's take that for an example. 克：那不是安全，当然不是。 人的内心存在着巨大的不确定性， 巨大的空虚感、孤独感。 真的，孤独感——让我们以此为例。
4:21 H: OK. 希：好的。
4:23 K: I may be married, I may have children, and all the rest of it, but I still feel isolated, lonely. And it's frightening, depressing, and I realise it is isolating. After all, loneliness is the essence of isolation, in which I have no relationship with anybody. Is that one of the reasons why human beings seek security, this desire for security?

H: Yes, to fill that up. 		克：我也许结婚了，我也许有孩子，以及诸如此类的一切， 但我依然感觉孤立、隔绝。 而这令人害怕、令人沮丧， 我也意识到这是一种隔绝。 毕竟，孤独是隔绝的核心， 我身陷其中，与任何人都没有关系。 这是人类寻求安全、想要得到安全的 原因之一吗？

希：是的，想填补那种需要。
5:01 K: Or much deeper than that. To be secure in my fulfilment, to be free of fear, free of my agony. I want to be free of all those, so that I can be completely secure, in peace and happiness. Is that what we want? 克：抑或远不止于此。 在我的成就中感觉安全， 能够摆脱恐惧，摆脱我的痛苦。 我想要摆脱那一切，这样我就能彻底安全， 身处平静与幸福中。那是我们想要的吗？
5:30 H: Yes.

K: Is that the reason why we seek? 		希：是的。

克：那是我为什么追求的原因吗？
5:33 H: And we want that to be stable over time. 希：我们也希望那种状态能够历久弥坚。
5:37 K: Stable, permanent - if there is anything permanent. Is that the reason why we crave this, demand, crave for security? 克：稳固、永恒——如果有任何永恒的东西的话。 那就是我们渴望这些，想要、渴求安全的原因吗？
5:50 H: Yes. 希：是的。
5:56 K: That means to be free from fear, and then I am totally secure. 克：那意味着摆脱恐惧，然后我就彻底安全了。
6:04 H: It feels like I have to be that way in order to function adequately. 希：感觉就好像我必须那样才能恰当地运转。
6:11 K: Function adequately comes later. 克：恰当地运转是后来的事情。
6:14 H: What do you mean? 希：你是什么意思？
6:16 K: If I am secure, I'll function.

H: Yes. 		克：如果我安全，我就会运转。

希：是的。
6:20 K: If I am very anchored in something which I think is false or true, I'll act according to those two principles. But is it that human beings are incapable of solving this deep-rooted fear - for example, I am taking fear - and they have not been able to solve it. 克：如果我深深禁锢在某件事情上，无论我认为它对与错， 我就会根据那两个原则去行动。 但是，人类是不是没有能力 解决这根深蒂固的恐惧——我以恐惧为例—— 他们没能解决这个问题。
6:46 H: Yes, that's right.

K: Psychological fears. 		希：对，是的。

克：心理上的恐惧。
6:50 K: And to be free from that is to be so marvellously secure. 克：而摆脱恐惧就是如此奇妙的安全。
6:59 H: You are saying that if we can solve these problems at a fundamental level. 希：你是说如果我们能够 从根本上解决这些问题。
7:04 K: Otherwise what's the point, how can I be totally secure? 克：否则有什么意义呢，我怎样才能彻底安全呢？
7:07 H: Yes. 希：是的。
7:12 K: So, is it the physical security, of bread, of shelter, food and clothes, spilling over to the psychological field? You understand what I mean? 克：所以，是不是身体安全，面包、住处、 衣食的安全，蔓延到了心理领域？ 你理解我的意思吗？
7:30 H: Do you mean, is that where the psychological feeling of the need for security comes from?

K: Yes, partly. One must have food, and clothes, and shelter. That's absolutely essential, otherwise you four wouldn't be sitting here.

H: Yes. 		希：你是不是说，那就是需要安全的心理感受 的来源？

克：是的，部分如此。 你必须有吃、有穿、有住处。 那是绝对必要的，否则你们四个 就不会坐在这里。

希：是的。
7:48 K: In the search of that, psychologically also, I want to be equally secure. 克：在追求那些的过程中，从心理上我也想要 同样的安全。
8:00 H: They seem to be equated. 克：它们似乎是同等的。
8:02 K: Yes, I'm questioning whether it is so. 克：是的，我在质疑是不是这么回事。
8:06 H: Yes. 希：是的。
8:07 K: Or the psychological desire to be secure prevents physical security. 克：抑或心理上对安全的需要妨碍了身体上的安全。
8:24 H: It seems like the psychological desire to be secure arises out of the necessity to function in reality. 希：似乎对心理安全的需要 来源于在现实中运转的需要。
8:32 K: I want to be psychologically secure. 克：我想得到心理上的安全。
8:37 H: Yes. 希：是的。
8:39 K: So, I am attached to a group, a community, a nation. 克：所以，我依附于某个团体、某个社区、某个国家。
8:43 H: Yes. 希：是的。
8:44 K: Which then prevents me from being secure. Security means long-lasting security. But if I identify myself, in my search for psychological security, and attach myself to a nation, that very isolation is going to destroy me.

H: Yes. 		克：而这反而妨碍我得到安全。 安全意味着持久的安全。 但是，如果在追求心理安全的过程中，我将自己 与某个国家相认同并依附于它，那么那种隔绝本身 就会将我摧毁。

希：是的。
9:13 K: So, why do we seek this? 克：那么，我们为什么还追求这个？
9:18 H: OK, then you're saying that there is a mistake, which is that we identify ourselves, attach ourselves to something and seek security in that, and that that's fundamentally wrong. 希：好的，那你就是在说错误在于 我们将自己与 某些事物相认同、依附于它并从中寻找安全， 而这从根本上是错误的。
9:30 K: Yes. No, not fundamentally. I won't say right or wrong. 克：是的。不，不是根本上。我不会说对还是错。
9:34 H: OK.

K: I am asking why? Why do human beings do this? A fact which is right through the world, it's not just for certain communities - all human beings want to be so... unshakeable security. 		希：好的。

克：我是在问为什么？ 人类为什么这么做？ 这是一个遍及全世界的事实，不仅仅是 某些社区的事实 ——全人类都想要如此 不可动摇的安全。
9:56 H: Yes.

K: Why? 		希：是的。

克：为什么？
10:03 B: Well, I think that people have some answers. You see, if you say, there's a young child, or a baby, now, he feels the need to be loved by his parents, and it seems that at a certain stage the infant has the need for a kind of psychological security, which he should grow out of, perhaps, but since he isn't properly taken care of by his parents very often, he begins to feel lost, as you say, alone, isolated, and there arises the demand that he become inwardly secure. 博：哦，我想人们会给出一些回答。 你看，如果你说，有个小孩子，或者有个婴儿， 现在他感觉需要被他的父母爱，似乎 婴儿在某个阶段需要某种 心理安全，也许从中他才能成长起来， 但是，由于他时常得不到父母恰当的照顾， 他开始有迷失感，如你所说，感觉孤立、隔绝， 于是产生了想得到内心安全的需要。
10:39 K: A baby must be secure. 克：婴儿必须得到安全。
10:42 B: Yes, psychologically as well as physically, would you say? 博：是的，心理上以及身体上的安全，你说是吗？
10:46 K: Yes, there must be. 克：是的，必须有这样的安全。
10:48 B: Now, at some stage you would say, that it would change. 博：那么，你会不会说，在某些阶段，情况会发生变化。
10:51 K: Yes.

B: I don't know what age. 		克：是的。

博：我不知道是在什么年纪。
10:53 K: Why… No, a certain age, a small baby, or a young child, it must be protected. 克：为什么……不，在某个年纪，一个小婴儿， 或者一个小孩子，必须得到保护。
11:01 B: In every way, psychologically.

K: Yes, psychologically... 		博：各个方面都得到保护，心理上也是。

克：是的，心理上
11:03 B: It must not be shocked psychologically. 博：他不能在心理上受到惊吓。
11:05 K: You protect it with affection, taking it in your lap, cuddling him or her, and holding his hand, you make him feel that he is loved, that he is cared for. That gives him a feeling - here is somebody, who is looking after me, and there is security here. 克：你用爱保护他，把他抱在腿上， 拥抱他或她，握着他的手， 让他感觉到自己是被爱的、被关怀的。 那给他一种感觉——这里有个人， 在照顾着我，这里有安全。
11:22 B: Yes, and then I suppose, he will grow up not requiring that security. 博：是的，然后我想，他长大后就不会想要那种安全。
11:26 K: That's it. I am questioning, as he grows up, and as he faces the world, why does he crave for security? 克：是的。我在质疑，当他长大时， 当他面对这个世界时，为什么会渴望安全？
11:36 B: Well, I think very few children ever have that love to begin with. 博：哦，我想很少有孩子从一开始就拥有那样的爱。
11:40 K: Oh, that's it. So is that the problem? 克：噢，是的。那么那就是问题所在吗？
11:46 B: Well, I don't know, but that's one factor in there. 博：哦，我不知道，但那是其中的一个因素。
11:49 K: That we really don't love? And if one loves, there is no need for security. You don't even think about security. If I love you, not intellectually, not because you give me comfort, sex, or this, or that, if I really have this deep sense of love for another, what is the need for security? It's my responsibility to see that you are secure. But you don't demand it.

H: Yes. 		克：是我们并非真的有爱吗？ 如果你有爱， 就不会需要安全。 你甚至都不会想到安全。 如果我爱你，不是从理智上，不是 因为你给了我舒适、性、这个或者那个， 如果我真正拥有这种深深爱着别人的感觉， 那么安全还有什么必要？ 确保你安全，是我的责任。 而你并不需要。

希：是的。
12:42 K: But human beings do. And does that mean we don't love another? 克：但是人类需要。那是不是意味着 我们不爱别人？
12:53 H: Yes, it means that what we love is the... 希：是的，那意味着我们爱的是
13:00 K: I love you because you give me something. 克：我爱你，是因为你给了我什么。
13:02 H: Yes. You make me feel like I'm going to get that security which I crave. 希：是的。 你让我觉得能够得到我渴望的那种安全。
13:07 K: Yes. So, no, we are skirting around this. Why? Why do I want security, so that I feel completely content, without fear, without anxiety, without agony, and so on? Is fear the root of all this? 克：是的。所以，不，我们还在外围兜圈子。为什么？ 为什么我想得到安全，那样我就能感觉完全满足， 没有恐惧、没有焦虑、没有痛苦等等？ 恐惧是这一切的根源吗？
13:37 H: Oh, we seem to have mentioned already several things that are the root of it. As the baby grows up and isn't loved, he feels the need for that, he remembers that, he tries to return to that, or get that as an adult, he's afraid because he's not protected, and as an adult he tries to get that protection. 希：噢，我们似乎已经提到了几件事情 是根源所在。当孩子长大而不再被爱， 他就会感觉需要那些，他记得那些， 想要回到过去，或者作为一个成年人得到那些， 他感到害怕，因为他没有受到保护， 于是作为一个成年人，他试图得到那种保护。
13:56 K: Or, sir, is it unconsciously we know that the self, the me, the ego is really totally unstable. 克：抑或，先生，是不是 我们下意识地知道自我、我、自己 实际上是完全不稳定的。
14:14 H: You are saying that in its nature it's totally unstable? 希：你是说它本质上就是完全不稳定的？
14:16 K: In its nature, unstable. And therefore, there is this anxiety for security, outside or inside. 克：它从本质上，就不稳定。 所以，会有对外界或内在安全的渴求。
14:28 H: Why do you say it's totally unstable? 希：你为什么说它完全不稳定？
14:30 K: Isn't it? Isn't our consciousness unstable? 克：不是吗？ 我们的意识难道不是不稳定的吗？
14:38 H: It seems to have two sides to it. One side says that if I could just get such and such, I would be stable. 希：这个问题似乎有两面。一方面说 如果我能得到如此这般，我就能够稳定。
14:46 K: Yes. And there is a contradiction to that. I may not be. 克：是的。可是还存在与它相矛盾的一面。 我也可能是不稳定的。
14:52 H: I may not be.

K: Yes, of course. 		希：我也可能不稳定。

克：是的，当然。
14:54 H: I'm not yet, but I will be.

K: Will be. 		希：我还没稳定，但我会的。

克：你会。
14:56 H: Yes. 希：是的。
14:58 K: No, much more fundamentally, is not this... the self itself in a state of movement, uncertainty, attached, fear in attachment - all that? That's a state of lack of stability. Therefore, I am asking, is that the reason that human beings unconsciously, knowing the instability of the self, want security - God, the saviour? 克：不，更根本的是，这个 自我本身就处于一种运动状态中，它不确定、 依恋、在依恋中感觉恐惧——难道不是这样吗？ 那是一种缺乏稳定性的状态。 所以，我在问，那就是 人类下意识地 知道自我不稳定 因而想得到安全——神明、救主的原因吗？
15:43 H: Wanting something absolute. 希：想得到某种绝对的东西。
15:45 K: Yes, completely... that'll give complete contentment. Because our consciousness is its content. Right?

H: Yes. 		克：是的，彻底的……它能带来彻底的满足。 因为我们的意识就是它的内容。 对吗？

希：是的。
16:09 K: And the content is always in contradiction. I believe...

H: That's right. 		克：而这内容总是自相矛盾。 我相信……

希：是的。
16:14 K: ...and yet I'm frightened of not believing. 克：……而我害怕不相信。
16:19 H: That's why you're saying it's in essence unstable. 希：那就是你为什么说它从本质上不稳定。
16:21 K: Obviously, it is unstable. So clearly unstable. I want this thing, and some other desire comes along and says, 'Don't have that, for god's sake'. There is this contradiction, there is duality, all that exists in our consciousness: fear, pleasure, fear of death, you know all the content of our consciousness - all that. So that is unstable. 克：显然它是不稳定的。它的不稳定是如此显而易见。 我想要这件东西，而另一个欲望过来说： “别要那个，看在老天的份上。”有这种矛盾， 这种二元性，这一切都存在于我们的意识中： 恐惧、快乐，对死亡的恐惧， 你知道我们意识中的所有内容——那一切。 所以那是不稳定的。
16:54 H: Now, sensing all of that, people generally say, 'This problem is too deep, or too complex, there's no way to solve it, we can maybe just make some adjustments'. 希：那么，感觉到了这一切，人们通常会说： “这个问题太深了，或者太复杂了， 没有办法解决， 我们也许只能做些调整。”
17:06 K: Yes, yes. And in that adjustment also there is lack of stability. So, unconsciously there must be craving for security. So, we invent God. 克：是的，是的。而那种调整依然缺乏稳定性。 所以，必然会下意识地渴望安全。 于是，我们发明了神。
17:22 H: We keep inventing lots of different things we hope will give us that security. 希：我们不断发明出很多不同的东西来， 希望它们能带给我们安全。
17:26 K: We create God, he's our creation. We are not the creation of God, I wish we were. We would be totally different. So, there is this illusory desire for security. 克：我们创造了神，他是我们的创造。 我们不是上帝创造出来的，我希望我们是。 那样我们就会完全是另一番模样。 所以，存在对安全的这种虚幻的渴望。
17:46 H: Wait a minute, why do you say that it's illusory? 希：等一下，你为什么说它是虚幻的？
17:48 K: Because they invent something, in which they hope they'll be secure. 克：因为他们发明了某些东西，希望从中能得到安全。
17:51 H: Oh, I see. Yes. 希：噢，明白了。是的。
17:57 K: So, if the content of our consciousness can be changed - quotes, changed - would there be need for security? 克：所以，如果我们意识的内容能够得到改变 ——改变，加引号——那么还会需要安全吗？
18:11 H: If we could eliminate all these contradictions? 希：如果我们能够消除所有这些矛盾？
18:13 K: Yes, contradictions. 克：是的，矛盾。
18:15 H: Then maybe we would have the security, because our consciousness would be stable. 希：那么我们也许就拥有了安全， 因为我们的意识将是稳定的。
18:18 K: So that maybe… We may not call it security. To be secure, which is a really disgusting desire, sorry. To be secure in what? About what? Personally, I never thought about security. You might say, well, 'You are looked after, you are cared for by others', and all the rest of it, therefore there is no need for you to think about security, but I never - I don't want security. I need, of course, I need food, clothes and shelter, that's understood, somebody to... 克：所以，那也许是……我们也许不会称之为安全。 想得到安全，真是一个令人作呕的欲望，抱歉这么说。 什么之中的安全？关于什么的安全？ 对我个人而言，我从未想过安全。哦，你也许会说： “你被照顾得好好的，别人照料着你，” 以及诸如此类的话，所以你不需要 考虑安全的问题，但是我从不——我不想得到安全。 我需要，当然，我需要食物、衣服和住处， 这容易理解，人得
19:07 H: But we're talking about psychological security. 希：但我们谈的是心理安全。
19:09 K: Yes, I'm talking of much deeper issue. 克：是的，我说的更为深层的问题。
19:13 H: And you're saying that that occurs because the contents of consciousness are no longer contradictory. 希：你是说这种情形之所以会发生，是因为 意识的内容不再互相矛盾。
19:19 K: Is there a consciousness... It may not be what we know as consciousness, it may be something totally different. All that we know is fear, reward and pleasure, and death, and constant conflict in relationship - I love you, but... 克：是否有一种意识 它也许不是我们所知道的意识， 它也许是某种截然不同的东西。 我们所知道的只有恐惧、奖赏和快乐， 还有死亡， 以及关系中的无尽冲突——我爱你，但是
19:46 H: Within limits.

K: Within limits. I don't know if that's called love. So, the content of consciousness is all that, which is me. My consciousness is me. In this complex, contradictory, dualistic existence, that very fact creates the demand for security. 		希：在局限之中。

克：在局限之中。 我不知道那是否被称为爱。 因此，意识的内容全都是那些东西， 那就是我。我的意识就是我。 在这个复杂的、矛盾的、二元性的存在中， 这个事实本身就产生了对安全的需要。
20:19 H: Yes. 希：是的。
20:22 K: So, can we eliminate the self? 克：所以，我们能否消除自我？（众笑）
20:28 H: But we haven't - have we got into the self? It seems like there's somebody in there, in here, who's going to juggle all these things and get rid of the contradictions. 希：但是我们还没有——我们说到自我了吗？ 好像这里有那么一个人， 打算把这一切都颠倒过来，然后再把矛盾清除掉。
20:37 K: But that means you are different from this, from consciousness. 克：但那意味着你不同于它、不同于意识。
20:44 H: Right. 希：对。
20:46 K: But you are that! You are pleasure, you are fear, you are all belief - all that you are. I think we… don't please agree with what we are talking about, what I'm saying. It may be all tommyrot. 克：但你就是它！你就是快乐，你就是恐惧， 你就是所有的信念——你就是那一切。 我想我们 请不要同意我们所说的话，我所说的话。 它们也许都是些瞎说八道。
21:09 H: I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't agree with that. I think that they would say that... 希：我想有很多人不会赞同这些说法。 我想他们会说
21:13 K: I know there're a lot of people who wouldn't agree, because they haven't gone into it. They just want to brush all this aside. 克：我知道很多人会不同意， 因为他们没有探索过这个问题。 他们只想把这一切都撇在一边。
21:18 H: Let's look at this. Is there a self that's separate, that's going to be able to somehow iron out these contradictions? 希：我们来看看这个问题。有没有一个分离的自我， 能够在某种程度上清除这些矛盾？
21:24 K: No! 克：没有！
21:26 S: But how do you know? I mean, it seems to me that there is a... at least, it may be illusory, but it's very easy to think that one is separate from some of these problems, and that there's something inside one which can make decisions. 谢：可是你怎么知道呢？我是说，在我看来，有某个 至少有，也许这是虚幻的，但很容易就会认为 你与这些问题是分开的， 你内心有某种东西能够做出决定。
21:42 K: Doctor, am I separate from my fear? Am I separate from the agony I go through? The depression? 克：博士，我与我的恐惧是分开的吗？ 我与我经历的痛苦、沮丧是分开的吗？
21:53 S: Well, I think that there's something within one, which can examine these things, and that's why it indicates there is some kind of separation. 谢：哦，我想人内心有某种东西， 可以审视这些事情，那就是为什么显示出 存在某种分离。
22:00 K: Because there is the observer separate from the observed. 克：因为有个观察者与所观之物相分离。
22:07 S: Yes.

K: Is that so? 		谢：是的。

克：是这么回事吗？
22:10 S: Well, it seems to be so.

K: It seems to be so! 		谢：哦，看起来是这样。

克：看起来是这样！
22:12 S: Now, this seems to be the problem, that it does seem to be so. I mean, in my own experience, of course, and many other people's, it does indeed seem that there is an observer observing things like fear and one's own reactions. And it comes out most clearly, I find, in insomnia, if one's trying to sleep, there's one part of one which, say, is just going on with silly worries and ridiculous thoughts, round and round', there's another part of one that says, 'I really want to sleep, I wish I could stop all these silly thoughts'. And there one has this actual experience of an apparent separation.

K: Yes. Of course, of course. 		谢：而这似乎就是问题所在，即看起来就是这么回事。 我是说，以我自己的经验，当然，还有很多其他人的经验， 看起来确实有个观察者在观察事物， 比如恐惧和一个人自身的反应。而且我发现 失眠的时候，这一点体现得最明显，如果你努力想要入睡， 你的一部分说：“这都是些 愚蠢的思虑和可笑的想法，萦绕不去，” 你的另一部分说：“我真的想睡觉， 我希望我能够停止所有这些愚蠢的想法。” 此时你就有这种切实的体验， 能感受到明显的分离。

克：是的。当然，当然。
22:48 S: So, this isn't just a theory, it's an actual fact of experience that there is this kind of separation. 谢：所以，这不仅仅是一个理论，这实际上是一个真实的体验， 有这种分离存在。
22:54 K: I agree, I agree. But why does that division exist? 克：我同意，我同意。 但是这种分裂为什么会存在？
23:05 S: Well, this is a good...

K: Who created the division? 		谢：哦，这是一个好……

克：谁制造了这种分裂？
23:11 S: It may just be a fact. 谢：这也许只是一个事实。
23:14 K: What may? 克：什么也许？
23:16 S: It may just be a fact.

K: Is that so? I want to examine it. 		谢：这也许只是一个事实。

克：是吗？我想检验一下。
23:19 S: Yes, so do I. I mean, is it indeed a fact that consciousness, as it were, has levels, some of which can examine others, one at a time? 谢：是的，我也想。我是说，这是否真是一个事实，即意识 如它所表现的那样，是有层次的，某个层次可以检视其他的层次， 一次检视其中一个？
23:29 K: No. Would you kindly consider, is fear different from me? I may act upon fear, I may say, 'I must suppress it, I may rationalise it, I might transcend it', but the fear is me. 克：不。请你能不能考虑一下，恐惧不同于我吗？ 我可以对恐惧采取行动，我可以说：“我必须压抑它， 我可以将它合理化，我可以超越它，”但恐惧就是我。
23:46 S: Well, we often...

K: I only invent the separation where I want to act upon it. But otherwise I am fear. 		谢：哦，我们经常……

克：我只不过发明了那种分离， 然后我就可以对它采取行动。 但另一方面我就是恐惧。
24:01 S: The common and ordinary way of analysing it would be to say 'I feel afraid' as if the afraidness was separate from the I. I want to get out of this state of feeling afraid, so I want to escape from it, leaving the fear behind, and the I will pass beyond it and somehow escape it. This is the normal way we think.

K: I know. 		谢：分析这个问题通常所采用的方式是 说“我觉得害怕，”就好像害怕和我是分开的。 我想走出这种感觉害怕的状态， 所以我逃离它，把恐惧远远抛在身后， 我会超越它，并在某种程度上避开它。 这是我们通常的思维方式。

克：我知道。
24:20 S: So, what's wrong with that? 谢：那么，这有什么不对吗？
24:23 K: You keep up this conflict. 克：你延续了这种冲突。
24:26 B: But I think, he is saying it may be inevitable. 博：但我想他说的是那也许是不可避免的。
24:29 S: It may be inevitable, you see.

K: I question it. 		谢：你看，它也许是不可避免的。

克：我质疑这一点。
24:32 B: Well... How do you propose to show it's not inevitable? 博：哦……你怎么能说明它并不是不可避免的？
24:38 K: First of all, when there is anger, at the moment of anger there is no separation. Right? 克：首先，当愤怒时，在愤怒出现的那一刻， 是没有分离的。 对吗？
24:50 S: When you're very angry...

K: Of course. 		谢：当你非常愤怒时……

克：当然。
24:53 S: ...what we normally say is you lose control of yourself, and the separation disappears, you become the anger, yes. 谢：……我们通常会说你对自己失去了控制， 然后分离消失了，你变成了那愤怒，是的。
24:59 K: At the moment when you are really angry, there is no separation. The separation only takes place after. 'I have been angry'. Right? Now, why? Why does this separation take place? 克：在你真的非常愤怒的那一刻，并不存在分离。 分离是之后才发生的。 “我生气了。”对吗？ 那么，为什么？为什么会发生这种分离？
25:19 S: Through memory. 谢：因为记忆。
25:21 K: Through memory, right. Because I have been angry before. So, the past is evaluating, the past is recognising it. So, the past is the observer. 克：因为记忆，对。因为我以前生过气。 所以，过去在评判， 过去把它识别了出来。 所以，过去是观察者。
25:40 B: That may not be obvious. For example, I may have physical reactions that go out of control, like sometimes the hand or the body, and I say, 'I am observing those physical reactions going out of control and I'd like to bring them back in'. I think somebody might feel the same way, that his mental reactions are going out of control, and that they have momentarily escaped his control, and he's trying to bring them back in. Now, that's the way it may look or feel to many people. 博：这点也许并不那么明显。比如说， 我也许有些身体反应失控了， 就像有时候手或者身体会失控， 于是我说：“我观察到这些身体反应 失控了，我想让它们回到掌控之中。” 我想有人也许会有同样的感受， 即他的心理反应失控了， 它们暂时脱离他的控制， 于是他想把它们扳回来。 而这也许正是很多人看到或者感受到的样子。
26:14 K: So what? 克：那又如何？
26:17 B: Well, then it is not clear. Have we made it clear that that is not the case? 博：哦，那就不太清楚了。 我们有没有弄清楚情形并不是这样的？
26:23 K: Sir, I am trying to point out, and I don't know if I made myself clear: when one is frightened, actually, there's no me separate from fear. 克：先生，我正想指出来， 我不知道我有没有把自己的意思说清楚： 当我真的很害怕时， 并不存在一个与恐惧分离的我。
26:43 K: When there is a time interval, there is the division. And time interval, time is thought. And when thought comes in, then begins the division. Because thought is memory, the past. 克：如果有一个时间间隔，就会有分裂。 并且有时间间隔，而时间就是思想。 当思想介入， 分裂就开始了。 因为思想是记忆， 是过去。
27:13 S: Thought involves memory - yes. 谢：思想引入了记忆——是的。
27:15 K: Yes, involves memory, and so on. So, thought, memory, knowledge, is the past. So, the past is the observer who says, 'I am different from fear, I must control it'. 克：是的，引入记忆，等等。 所以，思想、记忆、知识是过去。 所以，过去是观察者， 它说：“我不同于恐惧，我必须控制它。”
27:39 H: Let's go through this very slowly, because it's seems like the experience is that the observer is the present. It seems like he's saying, 'I'm here now, and what am I going to do about this the next time it comes up'. 希：让我们慢慢地探讨这个问题，因为我们的经验似乎是 观察者是现在。 似乎他在说：“我此刻在这里， 下次再出现这种情况时，我该怎么办。”
27:52 K: Yes. But the 'what am I going to do about it' is the response of the past, because you have already had that kind of experience. Sir, haven't you had fear?

H: Surely. 		克：是的。但是“我该怎么办” 是过去的反应，因为你已经有过了那种经验。 先生，你有过恐惧吗？

希：当然。
28:12 K: Deep, you know, something, a fear that has really shaken… 克：深深的某种东西，你知道，一种真正撼动你的恐惧
28:17 H: Yes.

K: ...devastating one. 		希：是的。

克：……具有毁灭性的那种。
28:20 H: Yes. 希：是的。
28:21 K: And at that second there is no division, you are entirely consumed by that. 克：在那一瞬间没有分裂， 你完全被那恐惧所震慑。
28:30 H: Yes. 希：是的。
28:33 K: Right?

H: Right. 		克：对吗？

希：对。
28:35 K: Now, then thought comes along and says, 'I've been afraid because of this and because of that, now I must defend myself, rationalise fear' and so on, so on, so on. It's so obvious. What are we discussing?

H: OK. 		克：然后，思想过来说：“我害怕了， 因为这个、因为那个，现在我必须保护自己， 将恐惧合理化，”等等，等等。这非常明显。 我们在讨论什么？

希：好的。
28:54 B: I think, coming back again to the physical reaction, which can also consume you, and at the next moment you say, 'I didn't notice it at the time' thought comes in and says, 'That's a physical reaction'. 博：我想，再回到身体反应这个问题上， 那也能把你完全占据，然后接下来的一刻你说： “我当时没有注意到，”思想进来说： “那是一种身体反应。”
29:06 K: Yes.

B: Now I know it, what is the difference of these two cases, that in the second case it would make sense to say, 'I know that I have reacted this way before', right? I can take such and such an action. 		克：是的。

博：现在我知道了， 这两种情形的不同之处在哪里， 在第二种情形下，你可以说： “我知道我以前有过这种反应，”对吗？ 我可以采取如此这般的行动。
29:22 K: I don't quite follow this. 克：这些我没太听懂。
29:24 B: Somebody can feel that it's true, I get overwhelmed by a reaction, and thought comes in. But in many areas that's the normal procedure for thought to come in. If something shattering happens, and then a moment later you think, what was it? Right?

K: Yes. In some cases that would be correct, right? 		博：有些人会觉得这是真的，我被某个反应所淹没， 然后思想进入。但是在很多方面， 让思想进入是通常的程序。 如果有惊人的事情发生，过了一会之后， 你会想：那是什么？对吗？

克：是的。

博：在某些情况下那是正确的，对吗？
29:45 K: Quite right. 克：很对。
29:47 B: Now, why is it in this case it is not? 博：那么，为什么这种情形下就不对？
29:49 K: Ah, I see what you mean. Answer it, sir, you are… Answer it. You meet a rattler on a walk.

B: Yes. 		克：啊，我明白你的意思了。 回答它，先生，你……回答这个问题。 你在路上遇到了一条响尾蛇。

博：是的。
30:08 K: Which I have done very often. You meet a rattler, it rattles, and you jump. That is physical, self-protective intelligent response. That's not fear. 克：这是我经常遇到的事情。你看到一条响尾蛇， 它摇动尾巴沙沙作响，然后你跳了起来。 这是身体为了自我保护做出的 智慧的反应。 那不是恐惧。
30:35 B: Right. Not psychological fear.

K: What? 		博：对。不是心理恐惧。

克：什么？
30:39 B: It has been called a kind of fear. 博：那被认为是一种恐惧。
30:41 K: I know, I don't call that psychological fear. 克：我知道，我不把它叫做心理恐惧。
30:43 B: No, it's not psychological fear, it's a simple physical reaction... 博：对，那不是心理恐惧，那只是一种身体反应
30:47 K: Physical reaction...

B: ...of danger. 		克：身体反应……

博：……对危险的反应。
30:49 K: ...which is an intelligent reaction not to be bitten by the rattler. 克：……那是为了不让响尾蛇咬到，而做出的智慧的反应。
30:55 B: Yes, but a moment later I can say, 'I know that's rattler' or it's not a rattler, I may discover it's not a rattler, it's another snake which is not so dangerous. 博：是的，但顷刻之后，我会说：“我知道那是响尾蛇，” 或者那不是响尾蛇，我也可能发现那不是一条响尾蛇， 是另一种不那么危险的蛇。
31:03 K: No, not so dangerous, then I pass it by. 克：是，不那么危险，然后我走过去。
31:07 B: But then thought comes in and it's perfectly all right. 博：但是然后思想会进入，而这就完全没有问题。
31:10 K: Yes.

B: Right? 		克：是的。

博：对吗？
31:12 K: Yes. 克：是的。
31:14 B: But here, when I am angry or frightened... 博：但是这里，当我生气或者害怕时
31:17 K: Then thought comes in.

B: And it's not all right. 		克：然后思想就会进来。

博：那就不太对劲了。
31:20 K: It's not all right.

B: Yes. 		克：那就不太对劲了。

博：是的。
31:22 K: Oh, I see what you are trying to get at. Why do I say it is not all right? Because fear is devastating, it blocks one's mind, thought, and all the rest of it, one shrinks in that fear. 克：噢，我明白你想说什么了。 我为什么说那就不太对劲了？ 因为恐惧是毁灭性的， 它阻断心灵和思维，以及等等的一切， 你在那恐惧中缩作一团。
31:44 B: Yes, I think I see that. You mean that possibly that when thought comes in, it cannot possibly come in rationally in the midst of fear, right?

K: Yes. 		博：是的，我想我明白这点。你的意思可能是 当思想进入，在恐惧当中它不可能 理性地进入，对吗？

克：是的。
31:53 B: Is that what you mean?

K: That's what I'm trying to say. 		博：你是这个意思吗？

克：这就是我想说的意思。
31:55 B: So, in the case of physical danger, it could still come in rationally. 博：那么，在有身体危险的情况下，它仍然可以理性地进入。
31:58 K: Yes. Here it becomes irrational.

B: Yes. 		克：是的。在这里就变得不理性。

博：是的。
32:01 K: Why, I am asking, why? Why doesn't one clear up all this awful mess? 克：为什么，我在问，为什么？ 为什么你不清除掉所有这些乱七八糟的东西？
32:17 H: Well, it isn't clear. 希：哦，这点并不清楚。
32:19 K: Look, sir, it is a messy consciousness. 克：你看，先生，这是一个乱糟糟的意识。
32:24 H: Yes, it's a messy consciousness. 希：是的，这是一个乱糟糟的意识。
32:25 K: Messy consciousness, contradicting... 克：乱七八糟的意识，自相矛盾
32:28 H: Yes. 希：是的。
32:29 K: …frightened, so many fears, and so on, it's a messy consciousness. Now, why can't we clear it up? 克：……害怕，有如此之多的恐惧，等等，那是一个凌乱无比的意识。 那么，我们为什么不能把它打扫干净呢？
32:39 H: Well, it seems we are always trying to clear it up after the fact. 希：哦，我们好像总是想在事后再打扫干净。
32:42 K: No, I think the difficulty lies, we don't recognise deeply this messy consciousness is me. And if it is me, I can't do anything! I don't know if you get the point. 克：不，我认为困难在于，我们没有深刻意识到 这个乱糟糟的意识就是我。 如果它就是我，我就什么也做不了！ 我不知道你有没有明白这一点。
33:05 S: You mean we think that there's a me separate from this messy consciousness. 谢：你是说我们认为有一个我 与这个混乱的意识是分开的。
33:10 K: We think we are separate. And therefore we are accustomed, it is our conditioning, to act upon it. But I can't very well do that with all this messy consciousness which is me. So, the problem then arises, what is action? We are accustomed to act upon the messy consciousness. When there is realisation of the fact that I can't act, because I am that. 克：我们以为自己是分开的。所以我们习惯了 对那个意识施加影响，这就是我们的制约。 但是我无法做好这件事， 因为有着这个混乱无比的意识，也就是我。 所以，问题就产生了：什么是行动？ 我们习惯于 对这个混乱的意识施加影响。 当我意识到这个事实， 即我无法行动，因为我就是那个意识。
33:53 H: Then what is action?

K: That is non-action. 		希：那么行动是什么呢？

克：是不行动。
33:58 H: OK. 希：好。
34:00 K: Ah, that's not OK, that is the total difference. 克：啊，那不是好，那是彻底的不同。
34:04 H: Yes, I think I understand. On the one hand there's the action of consciousness on itself which just perpetuates things. And seeing that, then it ceases to act. 希：是的，我想我明白了。一方面， 意识对自身采取行动，恰恰会使事态无止境地延续下去。 而看到了这一点后，它就停止了行动。
34:19 K: It's not non-violence. Sorry. 克：这并不是非暴力。对不起。
34:22 S: Sorry, sir, you're saying that normally we have the idea that there's a self which is somehow separate from some of the contents of our messy consciousness. 谢：对不起，先生，你说我们通常有这样的想法， 即有一个在某种程度上与 我们混乱意识的某些内容相分离的我。
34:31 K: That's right, that's right, sir. 克：对，对，先生。
34:32 S: If someone tells us we're wonderful, we don't want to be separate from that, but if we feel afraid and if somebody tells we're awful, we do want to be separate from that. 谢：如果有人告诉我们我们很棒，我们就不想 与那个意识分开，但是如果我们觉得害怕， 如果有人说我们非常糟糕， 我们就想跟那个意识分开。
34:40 K: Quite. 克：很对。（笑）
34:41 S: So, it's rather selective. But nevertheless we do feel there's something in us which is separate from the contents of this messy consciousness. We normally act in such a way as to change either the contents of the consciousness, or our relation to them, or our relation to the world, and so on. But we don't normally examine this apparent separation between the self, the me, and the contents of the messy consciousness. That's something we don't challenge. Now, you're suggesting that in fact, this separation, which we can actually experience and do, most of us do experience, is in fact something we ought to challenge and look at, and we ought to face the idea that we actually are the messy consciousness and nothing other.

K: Of course. It's so obvious. 		谢：所以，这相当有选择性。但尽管如此，我们还是觉得 我们身上有某种东西 与这个混乱意识的内容是分开的。我们通常的行为方式正是这样， 要么想改变这个意识的内容， 要么想改变我们与它们或者与这个世界等等的关系。 但是我们通常不审视 自我、我和这个混乱意识的内容之间这种显而易见的分离。 那是我们不去质疑的东西。现在，你指出 事实上，我们实际上都能体会到的这种分离， 我们大部分人也确实能够体验到， 它实际上是我们应该质疑和审视的东西， 我们也应该面对这个想法， 即我们实际上就是这个混乱的意识， 而不是别的什么。

克：当然。这显而易见。
35:32 S: Well, it isn't obvious, it's very non-obvious, and it's a very difficult thing to realise, because one's very much in the habit of thinking one is separate from it. 谢：哦，这不明显，这非常不明显， 这是一件非常难以认识到的事情，因为 人非常习惯于认为自己与那个意识是分开的。
35:39 K: So, it's our conditioning, can we move away from our conditioning? Our conditioning is me. And then I act upon that conditioning, separating myself. But if I am that... no action, which is the most positive action. 克：所以，这是我们的制约， 我们能摆脱我们的制约吗？ 我们的制约就是我。 然后我在那制约的基础上行动，把自己分离开来。 但是，如果我就是那个意识 ——就不会有行动，而这是最积极的行动。
36:07 H: The way that that would be heard, I'm afraid, is that if I don't act on it it's just going to stay the way it is. 希：恐怕，有人听到这番话会以为 如果我不对它采取行动，它就会保持原状。
36:13 K: Ah! 克：啊！
36:16 S: You're suggesting that by recognising this, there's a sort of the process of recognising it, facing up to... 谢：你说通过认识到这一点，就会有一个 认出它的过程，去面对
36:23 K: It's not facing up. Who is to face up? Not recognise. Who is to recognise it? You see, we are always thinking in those terms. I am that, full stop. We never come to that realisation, totally. There is some part of me which is clear, and that clarity is going to act upon that which is not clear. Always this goes on. 克：那不是面对。谁来面对呢？（笑）不是认出。 谁来认出它呢？你看，我们总是以这样的方式思考。 我就是那个意识，句号。 我们从未彻底地 认识到这一点。 我的一部分是清晰的，而这清晰的部分将 对不清晰的部分采取行动。 这种状况一直持续发生。
37:02 S: Yes.

K: I am saying, the whole content of one's consciousness is unclear, messy. There is no part of it that's clear. We think there is a part, which is the observer, separating himself from the mess. So, the observer is the observed. Gurus, and all that. 		谢：是的。

克：我是说， 人意识的整个内容都是不清晰的、混乱的。 没有一个部分是清晰的。 我们以为有一个部分， 那就是观察者，把他自己与混乱分开。 所以，观察者即被观察者。 古鲁们，以及所有那些。
37:38 B: You were raising the question of action. If that is the case, how is action to take place? 博：你提出了行动的问题。 如果情况是这样的，那么行动如何发生呢？
37:53 K: When there is perception of that which is true, that very truth is sufficient, it is finished. 克：当洞察到了真相， 那真相本身就足够了，事情就结束了。
38:00 B: Yes. You have said also, for example, that that mess itself realises its own messiness, right?

K: Yes. Messiness, it's finished. 		博：是的。你也说过，比如， 那混乱的意识认识到自身的混乱， 对吗？

克：是的，混乱，那就结束了。
38:13 S: Sir, are you suggesting, the realisation of the messiness itself in some way dissolves the messiness? 谢：先生，你是不是说，对混乱的认识 本身就以某种方式消除了混乱？
38:19 K: Yes. Not a separative realisation that I am messy. The fact is consciousness is messy, full stop. And I can't act upon it. Because previously acting upon it was a wastage of energy. Because I never solved it. I have struggled, I have taken vows, I have done all kinds of things to resolve this messy stuff. And it has never been cleared. It may partially, occasionally... 克：是的。并不是以一种分离的方式认识到我很混乱。 事实是意识很混乱，句号。 我无法对它采取行动。 因为之前对它的行动是一种能量的浪费。 因为我从未解决它。 我努力过，我许下了誓言， 我做过各种各样的事情来解决这堆混乱的东西。 而它从未被清除过。 它或许局部地、偶尔地
39:04 H: Well, I think that's another aspect of this. In therapy, or in our own lives, we seem to have insights that are partial, that we clear up a particular problem and gain some clarity and order for a time. And then the thing returns in some other form or...

K: Yes, yes. 		希：哦，我认为那是这件事的另一个方面。在治疗中， 或者在我们自己的生活中，我们似乎会有局部的洞察， 我们清楚了某个特定的问题，并在某段时间内得到了某种清晰 和秩序。 然后问题会再回来， 以另一种形式或者……

克：是的，是的。
39:26 H: ...the same form. You're suggesting that the thing needs to be done across the board in some way.

K: You see, sir, before, the observer acted upon it, upon the messy consciousness. Right?

H: Yes. 		希：……同样的形式。 你说问题需要 以某种全盘的方式来处理。

克：你看，先生， 以前，观察者对它采取行动， 对那个混乱的意识。 对吗？

希：是的。
39:44 K: Saying, 'I'll clear this up, give me time', all the rest of it. And that's a wastage of energy.

H: Right. 		克：说：“我要清理它，给我点时间”，诸如此类。 而这是浪费能量。

希：对。
39:55 K: When the fact that you are that - you are not wasting energy. Which is attention. I don't know if you want to go into this. 克：当认识到你就是那个意识这个事实——你就不会浪费能量。 那就是关注。我不知道你是不是愿意探讨这个问题。
40:09 S: No, this is very interesting. Please do. 谢：不，这很有意思。请继续。
40:16 K: Would we agree that acting upon it is a wastage of energy? 克：我们都同意对它采取行动是浪费能量吗？
40:25 H: Yes. This creates more disorder. 希：是的。这会制造更多的混乱。
40:29 K: No. It creates more disorder, and there is this constant conflict between me and the not me. The me who is the observer, and I battle with it, control it, suppress it, anxious, worry, you follow? Which is all essentially wastage of energy. Whereas, this messy consciousness is me. I have come to realise that through attention. Not 'I have come to realise', sorry.

B: Would you say that the consciousness itself has come to realise it? 		克：不要那样。那会制造更多混乱， 我和非我之间有着这种不停的冲突。 我是观察者， 我与它作斗争，控制它、压抑它，焦虑、担忧， 你明白吗？这实际上都是能量的浪费。 然而，这个混乱的意识就是我。 通过关注，我开始意识到这一点。 不是“我开始意识到，”对不起。

博：你会不会说 那个意识本身开始认识到这一点？
41:17 K: Yes.

B: I mean, it's not me, right? 		克：是的。

博：我是说，那不是我，对吗？
41:19 K: Yes. Which is total attention I am giving to this consciousness, not 'I am' - there is attention and inattention. Inattention is wastage of energy. Attention is energy. When there is observation that consciousness is messy, that fact can only exist when there is total attention. And when there is total attention, it doesn't exist any more confusion. It's only inattention that creates the problems. Refute it! 克：是的。 那是我对这个意识所付出的全然关注， 并非“我是”——有关注和漫不经心。 漫不经心是能量的浪费。 关注是能量。 当观察到那个意识是混乱的， 只有全然关注时，那个事实才能存在。 而当有全然的关注时，混乱将不复存在。 只有漫不经心才会制造问题。 驳倒它！（笑）
42:15 S: But, sir, I didn't understand entirely... This total attention that you're talking about would only be able to have this effect if it somehow was something completely in the present and devoid of memory. 谢：但是，先生，我并没有完全明白 你所说的这种全然关注 若要取得这样的效果， 在某种程度上需要 完全身处现在并清空了记忆。
42:27 K: Of course, of course, attention is that. If I attend to what you have said just now, - devoid of memory, which is attention - I listen to you not only with the sensual ear, but with the other ear, which is: I am giving my whole attention to find out what you are saying, which is actually in the present. In attention there is no centre. 克：当然，当然，关注正是如此。 如果我关注你刚才所说的话， ——去除了记忆，那就是关注—— 我就会不仅仅用耳朵这项器官来听， 还会用另外的耳朵，也就是： 我会付出我全部的注意力去弄明白你所说的话， 那是真正地处于此时此刻。 关注中没有中心。
43:14 S: Because the attention and the thing attended to become one, you mean. You mean there's no centre in the attention, because the attention is all there is, the thing attended to and the attention is all there is. 谢：因为关注与被关注的对象 成为了一体，这是你的意思。 你说关注中没有中心，因为 关注就是此时所有的一切，被关注的事物 和关注就是此时所有的一切。
43:27 K: Ah, no, no. There is messiness, because I have been inattentive. Right?

S: Yes. 		克：啊，不，不。有混乱，因为我一直漫不经心。 对吗？

谢：是的。
43:38 K: When there is the observation of the fact that the observer is the observed, and that state of observation, in which there is no observer as the past, that is attention. Sir, I don't know if you have gone into the question of meditation here. That's another subject. 克：当观察到了这个事实， 即观察者就是被观察者， 在那种观察状态中 没有作为过去的观察者，这就是关注。 先生，我不知道你有没有探讨过 冥想这个问题。那是另一个话题。
44:08 H: That may be a relevant subject. It seems that what you're talking about may happen partially. 希：那也许是一个相关的话题。 好像你所说的事情可以局部地发生。
44:16 K: Ah! It can't happen, then you keep partial mess and partial not mess. We're back again to the same position. 克：啊！它不能那样发生，那样你就会继续部分混乱、部分不混乱。 我们又回到了同样的状况。
44:26 H: Yes. 希：是的。
44:28 S: But do you think this kind of attention you're talking about is the sort of thing that many people experience occasionally in moments of great beauty, or occasionally a piece of music they're really enjoying, they lose themselves, and so on? Do you think that many of us have glimpses of this in these kinds of experiences? 谢：但是，你是不是认为你所说的这种关注 是很多人偶尔能体验到的一种情形， 偶尔在某些时刻见到壮丽的美景，或者偶尔听到一首 他们真正陶醉的乐曲时，他们忘我地沉浸于其中，等等之类？ 你是不是认为我们很多人在这类体验中 能够对它有偶尔一瞥？
44:46 K: That's it. That's it. When I see a mountain, the majesty, the dignity and the depth of it drives away myself. A child with a toy, the toy absorbs him. The mountain has absorbed me, toy has absorbed the child. I say, that means there is something outside, which will absorb me, which will make me peaceful. Which means an outside agency that'll keep me quiet - God, prayer, looking up to something or other. If I reject an outside agency completely, nothing can absorb me. Let's say, if you absorb me, when you are gone I am back to myself. 克：是的，就是这样。当我看到一座山峰， 它的壮丽、庄严和深邃驱散了自我。 玩着玩具的孩子，那玩具吸引了他。 山峰吸引了我， 玩具吸引了孩子。 我说，那意味着外面存在某种东西 吸引我、 让我变得安静。 那意味着一个外在的媒介能使我安静 ——神明、祈祷、仰仗于此或彼。 如果我彻底摒弃外在的媒介， 就没什么能够吸引我。 比如说，如果你吸引了我，当你离开时，我就会回到自己原来的样子。
45:50 H: Yes. 希：是的。
45:52 K: So, I discard any sense of external agency which will absorb me. So I am left with myself, that's my point. 克：所以，我摒弃任何意义上的 能够吸引我的外在媒介。 于是我只剩下自己，这就是我的意思。
46:02 H: I see. So you're suggesting that when this happens partially it's because we're depending on something. 希：我明白了。所以你说当这件事情从局部上发生时， 那是因为我们依赖某些东西。
46:08 K: Yes, of course.

H: I see. 		克：是的，当然。

希：我明白了。
46:11 K: It's like my depending on my wife.

H: Or my therapist, or my problem. 		克：就像我依赖我妻子那样。

希：或者我的治疗师，或我的问题。
46:16 K: Something or other.

H: Yes. 		克：这个或者那个。

希：是的。
46:17 K: Like a Hindu, Catholic, or anybody, they depend on something. Therefore dependence demands attachment. 克：就像一个印度教徒、天主教徒或者什么人，他们依赖某些东西。 所以依赖需要有所依附。
46:29 H: Now, it's possible to listen to you say this, and have the idea of what you are talking about, and try and do that. 希：那么，听你说了这些，对你所说的话有了些概念之后， 可能会试着去那么做。
46:36 K: Ah, you can't do it! That means you are acting again. You want something out of it. In exchange, I'll give you this, you give me that. That's just a trade. Here it's not like that, you are enquiring into something which demands a great deal of thought, great deal of intelligence, and attention that says, 'Look, why is there this division, this mess in the world?' Because our consciousness is messy and so the world is messy. So, from that arises, is it possible to be free of the self? Consciousness, the messy consciousness, is the self. 克：啊！你不能那么做！那意味着你又有所行动了。 你想从中得到些什么。作为交换， 我给你这个，你给我那个。这只不过是一种交易。 这里说的不是那回事，你所探询的事情 需要大量的思考、 大量的智慧 和关注，说：“看，世界上为什么会有 这种分裂、这种混乱？” 因为我们的意识混乱不堪，所以世界就是混乱的。 那么，从中就提出了问题：有没有可能摆脱自我呢？ 意识，这个混乱的意识，就是自我。
47:38 S: It is not possible to be free from the contents of consciousness, different experiences, as long as my eyes are open, I'm looking, I see all sorts of different things. Now, what you were saying about the attention, when one's looking at a mountain, for example, are you suggesting that if I have that same kind of attention to everything I experience, that then this is the... 谢：不可能摆脱意识的内容 和各种经验，只要我的眼睛是睁开的， 我在看，我看到各种各样的事情。 而你所说的关注， 例如，当你看着一座山时的关注，你是不是说 如果我对我所经历的一切 有同样的关注，那么这就是
48:03 K: You see, again, you experience. 克：你看，又是你去经历。（笑）
48:06 S: Yes, well, all right, but...

K: But you are the experience. 		谢：是的，好吧，但是……

克：而你就是那经验。
48:11 S: Yes. 谢：是的。
48:13 K: Right? That means, there is no experience. 克：对吗？那意味着，没有经验。
48:21 S: There's just attention, you mean. 谢：（笑）你是说，只有关注。
48:28 K: Experience involves remembrance, time, which is the past. Therefore the experiencer is the experienced. If I seek illumination, enlightenment, or whatever you might like to call it, I am then trying to do all kinds of things to achieve that. But I don't know what illumination is. I don't know. Not because you said it, or Buddha said it, or somebody else said it, I don't know. But I am going to find out. Which means the mind must be totally free - from prejudice, from fear, all the rest of that messy business. So, my concern is not illumination, but whether the content of my consciousness can be cleansed - whatever word you use. That's my concern - not concern, that's my enquiry. And as long as I am separate from my consciousness I can experience it, I can analyse it, I can tear it to pieces, act upon it, which means perpetual conflict between me and my consciousness. I wonder why we accept all this. Why do I accept that I am a Hindu? Why do I accept that I am a Catholic? You follow?

S: Yes. 		克：经验涉及到记忆、 时间，也就是过去。 所以经验者就是所经历的对象。 如果我追求启迪、 开悟，或者无论你愿意管它叫什么， 我就会想尽一切办法去实现它。 但是我不知道开悟是什么。我不知道。 并不因为你说过、佛陀说过，或者别的什么人说过这回事， 我就是不知道。但是我会去探索。 那意味着心灵必须彻底自由——摆脱偏见、 摆脱恐惧以及诸如此类的一切乱糟糟的事情。 所以，我关心的不是开悟，而是 我意识的内容能否 被涤清——无论你用什么词。 那是我关心的事情——不是关心，那是我探索的事情。 只要我与我的意识是分开的， 我就可以体验它，我就可以分析它， 我就可以把它撕成碎片，对它采取行动， 那意味着我和我的意识之间有着永无止境的冲突。 我纳闷我们为什么要接受这一切。 我为什么要接受我是个印度教徒？ 我为什么要接受我是个天主教徒？ 你明白吗？

谢：是的。
50:26 K: Why do we accept what other people say? 克：我们为什么接受别人所说的话？
50:30 H: We say it ourselves. 希：我们自己也那么说。
50:33 K: Yes. No, not only we say it ourselves, but it's encouraged, sustained, nourished by people outside. Why? Why do we accept? He is a professor and he is teaching me, I accept that. Because he knows biology much more than I do, I go to his class, and I am being informed by what he says. But he's not my guru, he's not my behaviour guide. He is giving me information about biology, and I am interested in it. I want to study it, I want to go out into the field and do all kinds of stuff. But why do we accept authority, psychological authority, spiritual - quote spiritual - authority? Again, we come back to security. I don't know what to do, but you know better than I do; you are my guru. I refuse that position. 克：是的。不，不只是我们自己那么说， 而且这种做法还被其他人所鼓励、所支持、 所助长。 为什么？我们为什么接受？ 他是个教授，他教我，我接受这点。 因为生物学他懂的比我多，我去上他的课， 我从他所说的话中得到了信息。 但他不是我的古鲁，他不是我行为的指导。 他给我生物学的知识，而我对此感兴趣。 我想学习，我想实地去考察， 以及做各种各样的事情。 但我们为什么接受权威， 心理上的权威、 精神上的——精神加引号——权威呢？ 我们又回到了安全上。 我不知道该怎么办，但是你知道的比我多； 你是我的古鲁。 我拒绝接受那种关系。
51:44 S: But don't we arrive at the same set of problems, if we start not from authority but from responsibility; say, I'm a father, I have this child, we've agreed some time ago... 谢：但是，我们难道不会归结到同一类问题吗， 即使我们不从权威开始，而是从责任开始； 比如，我是一个父亲，我有个孩子， 不久前我们达成一致
51:57 K: You have to instruct it, of course. 克：你得指导他，当然。
51:59 S: You have to look after this baby.

K: Of course, of course. 		谢：你得照顾这个孩子。

克：当然，当然。
52:01 S: Fine. But now, in order to feed the baby you become preoccupied with security, job, tenure, you know, house... 谢：好。但是现在，为了养活这个孩子，你心里想的全是 保障、工作、职位，你知道，房子
52:08 K: Of course, of course.

S: ...protecting the house against marauders, and so on.

K: Of course, of course. 		克：当然，当然。

谢：……保护这个家 免于强盗的掠夺，等等。

克：当然，当然。
52:12 S: Then you get into the same lot of things about preoccupation with security, starting not from authority but from responsibility for others, for children, for example. 谢：然后你开始探索同样的一些事情，思考被安全 占据的心，尽管不是从权威开始，而是从责任开始的， 比如，对别人、对孩子的责任。
52:21 K: Of course. 克：当然。
52:23 S: So, then what is the answer to that? It's easy to say you should reject responsibility. 谢：那么，对此的回答是什么呢？ 这时容易说你应该抛弃责任。
52:28 K: Of course, I have money, if I earn money, job, so on, I have to look after myself. If I have servants, I have to look after servants, my children, perhaps their children too. I am responsible for all that.

S: Yes. 		克：当然，我有钱，如果我工作、赚钱等等， 我得照顾我自己。如果我有佣人， 我得照顾佣人、我的孩子们， 也许还有他们的孩子。 我对这一切都有责任。

谢：是的。
52:44 K: Physically I am responsible. To give them food, to give them the right amount of money, allow their children go to a proper school, like my children - I am responsible for all that. 克：物质上我得负责。为他们提供食物、 数量适当的钱， 让他们的孩子上合适的学校，就像我的孩子们那样 ——我对这一切都有责任。
52:59 S: But isn't that going to bring you back to the same position of insecurity, and so on, that you were trying to dissolve by this rejection of authority? 谢：但是，这不就把你带回到了 同样一个不安全之类的问题吗，于是你又要努力 通过这种摒弃权威的方式来消除这些问题？
53:14 K: I don't see why I need spiritual or psychological authority. Because if I know how to read myself, I don't need anybody to tell me. But we have never attempted deeply to read the book of myself. I come to you and say, 'Please, help me to read.' And then the whole thing is lost. 克：我不明白我为什么需要精神或者心理权威。 因为如果我知道如何了解自己， 我就不需要任何人来告诉我。 但是，我们从来不想深入地读自己这本书。 我来找你，并且说：“请帮我读。” 然后这整件事情就迷失了。
53:43 H: But I think what Rupert is asking is that if we start by assuming responsibility for other people, that entails...

K: What? My earning capacity? 		希：可是我觉得鲁伯特问的是 如果我们从承担对别人的责任开始， 那需要……

克：什么？我赚钱的能力？
53:59 H: Which must be secure.

K: Yes, secure as much as possible. Not in countries where there's tremendous unemployment. 		希：必须有安全。

克：是的，最大可能的安全。 不是在失业如此严重的那些国家里。
54:08 H: So, you're saying that that doesn't entail any psychological insecurity. 希：那么，你说那并不能导致任何心理上的不安全。
54:11 K: No, of course not. But when I say, 'He's my servant, I'm going to keep him in that place,' you follow? 克：不能，当然不能。但是，当我说：“他是我的佣人， 我得把他留在那个位置上，”你明白吗？
54:19 H: No. Tell me more.

K: I mean, I treat him as a servant. 		希：不明白。再多说一些。

克：我是说，我把他当做佣人看待。
54:23 H: Yes. 希：是的。
54:25 K: Which becomes irresponsible - I don't know… naturally. 克：那自然就会变得不负责任。——我不知道
54:31 H: But if it's a servant, he can come and go. But if it's a child, he can't come and go.

K: Ah! He's part of my family. 		希：但是，如果他是一个佣人，他可以来也可以走。但如果那是一个孩子， 他不能来了又走。

克：啊！他是我家庭的一部分。
54:39 B: I think the question is something like this: suppose, you are responsible for a family and the conditions are difficult, you may not have a job, and you may start to worry about, and become insecure psychologically. 博：我想问题是这样的，假设 你对一个家庭负责，而家境很困难， 你也许没有工作，你可能就会开始担心， 并且从心理上变得不安全。
54:49 K: Yes.

B: Right? 		克：是的。

博：对吗？
54:51 K: I don't worry about it, there it is, I have no more money. So, my friend, I have no more money, if you want to stay, share the little food I have, we'll share it. 克：我并不担心，情况就是这样，我没有更多的钱了。 所以，我的朋友，我没有钱了，如果你想留下来， 分享我们仅有的一点食物，我们就来分享。
55:02 B: You're saying that even if you are unemployed and you are responsible for a family, it will not disturb the order of the mind, right? 博：你是说，即使你失业了并且还得为 一个家庭负责，那也不会扰乱心灵的秩序，对吗？
55:09 K: Of course, not. 克：当然，不会。
55:10 B: You will find an intelligent way to solve it. 博：你会找到智慧的解决之道。
55:12 K: Deal with it.

B: Yes. 		克：解决它。

博：是的。
55:15 S: But this kind of worry as a result of responsibility is relative. 谢：但是这种担忧作为责任的一个结果，是相关的。
55:18 K: I don't call it worry. I am responsible. 克：我不把它叫做担忧。（笑）我负责任。
55:22 S: Yes. 谢：是的。
55:24 K: And therefore I look after as much as I can. 克：所以我尽我所能地照顾一切。
55:27 S: And if you can't?

K: Sorry? 		谢：可如果你不能呢？

克：对不起？
55:31 S: If you can't?

K: I can't. Why should I worry and bother - I can't, it's a fact. 		谢：如果你不能呢？

克：我不能。 我为什么要担心并忧虑呢——我不能，那是事实。
55:40 B: You're saying that it's possible to be completely free of worry, for example, in the face of great difficulties. 博：你是说可能彻底摆脱担忧， 比如说，在面对巨大困境的时候。
55:46 K: Yes. There is no… You see, that's what I am saying. Where there is attention, there is no need to… there is no worry, because there is no centre from which you are attending. 克：是的。没有……你看，那就是我说的意思。 如果有关注，就不需要……没有担忧， 因为没有任何你据以出发的中心。
56:02 S: There are still problems, and there may still be responsibilities that one has. 谢：可还是有问题，也许还有 你需要负的责任。
56:06 K: Of course, I have problems, so I resolve them. 克：当然，我有问题，所以我解决它们。
56:09 S: But if you can't resolve them. 谢：但是如果你不能解决它们。
56:11 K: Then I can't.

S: If your family is starving. 		克：那么我就不能。

谢：如果你的家人在忍饥挨饿。
56:13 K: I can't. Why should I worry about it? I can't be Queen of England. 克：我不能解决。我为什么要担心呢？我又不是英国女王。
56:17 S: No. 谢：不是。
56:18 K: No. So, why should I worry about it? 克：不是。所以，我为什么要担心呢？（笑）
56:20 S: But if you're a poor Indian, unemployed, your family is starving, there's nothing you can… You've tried everything, you've failed. You don't worry. Actually, surprisingly enough, a lot of poor Indians in just that situation don't worry - that's the most amazing thing about India. But then, of course, people coming along looking from outside say, 'Well, this is fatalism'.

K: Yes, that's right. 		谢：但如果你是印度的一个穷人，没有工作， 你的家人要饿死了，你什么办法也没有 你做出了一切努力，可你失败了。 你不担心。实际上这真的令人感到非常惊讶， 印度很多穷人就处于这种状况，他们不担心—— 这是印度最令人惊奇的事情。 但是然后，当然，外来的人看了会说： “哦，这是宿命论。”

克：是的，对。
56:40 S: And it's often regarded as the disease of India, the very fact that so many people manage not to worry in those circumstances, to the degree that we would expect. 谢：而这个事实本身，也经常被认为是印度的弊病， 即有那么多人在那样的境遇中却毫不担忧， 其程度到达了我们所能想象的地步。
56:48 K: I'd like to ask you a question. You've listened to all this - messy consciousness - does one realise it, and empty the content, fear, you know, the whole business? Does it interest you?

H: Yes. 		克：我想问你一个问题。你听说了这一切 ——混乱的意识—— 你有没有意识到这点，并清空那些内容， 恐惧，你知道的，这全部的东西？ 你对此感兴趣吗？

希：是的。
57:11 K: Totally?

H: Yes. 		克：完全感兴趣？

希：是的。
57:13 K: That means what? 克：那意味着什么？
57:16 H: It means you just listen. 希：那意味着你只是倾听。
57:18 K: No, it means a conversation, dialogue between us. Penetrating deeper, and deeper, and deeper. Which means you must be free to examine. Free from your prejudice, from your previous experience. Of course, otherwise you can't examine. You can't investigate. 'Investigare' means explore, you know, push it, push it, push it further and further. Now, are you, are we willing to do that, so that actually the self is not? But when the self is not, it doesn't mean you neglect your wife, your children - you follow? That becomes so silly, it's like becoming a sannyasi, going off to the mountains, a monk going off into a monastery. That's an extraordinary escape. The fact is I have to deal with my wife and children, and if I have, a servant. Can I be so totally without the self that I can intelligently deal with these problems? 克：不，那意味着一场对话，我们之间的对话。 穿透得越来越深、越来越深。 意味着你必须自由地去探索。 摆脱你的偏见、摆脱你先前的经验。 当然了，否则你就无法检视。你无法探究。 “探究”意味着探索， 你知道，推进、推进，越来越远地推进。 现在，你是不是、我们是不是愿意这么做， 于是真的没有了自我？ 但是，当没有了自我时，那并不意味着你忽略你的妻子、 你的孩子们——你明白吗？ 那就太愚蠢了，那就像是变成了一个遁世修行者， 归隐山林， 或者藏身寺庙中的僧侣。 那是一种严重的逃避。 事实是我得面对我的妻子和孩子们， 还有佣人，如果我有的话。 我能否完全没有自己， 这样我就能智慧地处理这些问题？