克里希那穆提 - 何为健康的心灵?

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ82CNM4 - 何为健康的心灵?
与博姆、希德利和谢尔德雷克各位博士的第四次讨论
加州，欧亥
1982年4月18日

0:10	The Nature of the Mind	希：心的本质
0:23	Part Four	第四部分
0:25	What is a Healthy Mind?	什么是健康的心灵？
0:37	This is one of a series of dialogues between J Krishnamurti, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake, and John Hidley. The purpose of these discussions is to explore essential questions about the mind, what is psychological disorder, and what is required for fundamental psychological change.	这是J·克里希那穆提与大卫·博姆、鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克和约翰·希德利进行的系列对话之一。这些讨论旨在探索最根本的心灵问题，即何为心理失序，以及彻底的心理转变需要什么。
0:57	J Krishnamurti is a religious philosopher, author, and educator, who has written and given lectures on these subjects for many years. He has founded elementary and secondary schools in the United States, England, and India.	J·克里希那穆提是一位宗教哲人、作家和教育家，他多年来就这些问题著书立说并进行演讲。他在美国、英国和印度建立了几所小学和中学。
1:11	David Bohm is professor of theoretical physics at Birkbeck College, London University in England. He has written numerous books concerning theoretical physics and the nature of consciousness. Professor Bohm and Mr. Krishnamurti have held previous dialogues on many subjects.	大卫·博姆是理论物理学教授，就职于英国伦敦大学的伯克贝克学院。他著有多部著作，论述理论物理学和意识的本质。博姆教授和克里希那穆提先生之前曾就很多问题进行过对话。
1:28	Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist, whose recently published book proposes that learning in some members of a species affects the species as a whole. Dr. Sheldrake is presently consulting plant physiologist to the International Crops Research Institute in Hyderabad, India.	鲁伯特·谢尔德雷克是一位生物学家，新近发表了一部著作，提出一个物种中部分成员的学习过程将会影响整个物种。谢尔德雷克博士现在担任位于印度海得拉巴的国际农作物研究所的顾问植物生理学家。
1:46	John Hidley is a psychiatrist in private practice, who has been associated with the Krishnamurti school in Ojai, California for the past six years.	约翰·希德利是一名个人执业的精神病医生，与位于加利福尼亚欧亥的克里希那穆提学校六年来一直联系密切。
1:57	The first three dialogues have focused on various processes of self-identification and their effects. The need for psychological security has been discussed as growing out of a basic division, in which the contents of consciousness appear to be separate from consciousness itself. Today's discussion begins with the importance of attention.	前三次对话的议题集中于各种自我认同过程及其影响。也讨论了对心理安全的需要，它产生于一种根本的分裂，这种分裂使得意识的内容看起来与意识本身是分开的。今天的讨论从关注的重要性开始。
2:21	K: What is analysis? And what is observation? In analysis there is the analyser and the analysed. And so there is always that difference maintained. Where there is difference there must be conflict, division, and that's one of the factors that really is very destructive to the whole psychological freedom, this conflict, this division. And analysis maintains this division. Whereas if one observes closely - I'm not correcting you, sir, I'm just enquiring - the analyser is the analysed. Again the same problem: thought has divided the analyser and the analysed. The analyser is the past, who has acquired a lot of knowledge, information, separated himself, and is either correcting the observed, the analysed, make him conform - he is acting upon it. Whereas the analyser is the analysed. I think if that is really understood very deeply, the conflict, psychological conflict ends, because in that there is no division between the analyser and the analysed, there is only observation. Which Dr. Bohm and we discussed at considerable length last year. So, if that is clearly understood - I am not laying down the law, but I am just… as I have observed, as one has observed this whole business of conflict, whether one can live the whole of one's life without conflict. That means the controller is absent, which is a very dangerous question. I feel where there is inattention, lack of attention, is really the whole process of conflict.	克：分析是什么？观察又是什么？分析中有分析者和被分析之物。因而这种差异总是能够得以延续。只要有这种差异，就必然会有冲突、分裂，而这对于整个心灵的自由来说，实际上是非常具有破坏性的因素之一，这种冲突、这种分裂。而分析维系着这种分裂。然而，如果你非常密切地观察 ——我不是在纠正你，先生，我只是在探询—— 那么分析者即被分析之物。又回到了同一个问题：思想划分了分析者和被分析之物。分析者是过去，他获得了大量的知识、信息，把自己分离开来，总是在纠正被观察者、被分析之物，让他遵从——他在对它采取行动。然而分析者即被分析之物。我想，如果能够非常深刻地领会这一点，冲突，心理冲突就会终止，因为在那了解之中，没有分析者和被分析者之间的分裂，而只有观察。去年博姆博士和我们曾非常深入地探讨过这个问题。那么，如果非常清晰地理解了这一点 ——我不是在定下规则，我只是在……因为我观察到了，因为你观察到了这整个冲突的状况，你能否毫无冲突地度过整个一生。那意味着没有控制者，而这是一个非常危险的问题。我发现，当漫不经心时，缺乏关注实际上就是整个冲突的过程。
5:09	S: Yes, I can see that if both sides saw this with the utmost clarity...	谢：是的，我能看出，如果双方都能极其清楚地看到这一点
5:15	K: Yes. That means they are giving intelligence to the whole problem.	克：是的。那意味着他们在给整个问题带来智慧。
5:20	S: What happens if only one party in a conflict sees it with that utmost clarity? K: What happens? One gives complete attention in one's relationship between man and woman; let's begin with that. You have given complete attention. When she insults you, when she flatters you, when she bullies you, or when she is attached to you, all that is the lack of attention. If you give complete attention, and the wife doesn't, then what happens? That is the same problem. Either you try to explain, day after day, go into it with her patiently. After all, attention implies also great deal of care, affection, love. It's not just mental attention. It's attention with all your being. Then either she moves along with you, comes over to your side, as it were, or she holds on to her separative contradictory state. Then what happens? One is stupid, the other is intelligent.	谢：在某个冲突中，如果只有一方极其清晰地看到了这一点，那会怎么样？克：会怎么样？你以全然的注意力来关注男人和女人之间的关系；我们从这件事情开始。你付出了全然的关注。当她侮辱你，当她奉承你，当她欺负你，或者当她依恋你，那一切都是缺乏关注。如果你付出全然的关注，而妻子没有，那么会怎么样？这是同一个问题。你会努力地解释，日复一日，耐心地和她探讨这个问题。毕竟，关注也意味着大量的关心、关怀和爱。它不仅仅是理性的关注，而是用你的整个存在去关注。那么，她要么随你而动，来到你那一边，就像过去那样，要么继续坚守她矛盾分裂的状态。然后会怎么样？一个人是愚蠢的，而另一个人是智慧的。
6:58	S: But the conflict... K: So there is always the battle between the stupid and the ignorant. I mean between the ignorant, the stupid, and the intelligent.	谢：但是冲突…… 克：所以战斗始终在愚蠢者和无知者之间进行着。我是说无知者、愚蠢者和智慧者之间。
7:09	H: A thing that seems to happen in that situation is that the one's intelligence makes room, in which the other person, who is caught in some attachment, may have freedom to look at it.	希：在那样的情形下，可能会发生的一件事情是，智慧的那个人创造出了空间，而另一个人，困在某些依恋里的那个人，在那个空间里也许就有了看的自由。
7:24	K: But if the other refuses to look at it, then what is the relationship between the two people?	克：但是如果另一个拒绝去看，那么这两个人之间会有怎样的关系？
7:31	H: There is none. K: That's all. You see tribalism is deadly, destructive. You see it basically, fundamentally, and I don't. You have seen it probably immediately, and I'll take many years, a long time to come to that. Will you have the... - I won't use the word patience - will you have the care, affection, love, so that you understand my stupidity? I may rebel against you. I may divorce you. I may run away from you. But you have sown the seed somewhere in me. But that does happen, doesn't it, really, in life?	希：没有关系。克：就是这样。你看到部落主义是致命的、毁灭性的。你从根本上深刻地看到了这一点，而我没有。你也许立刻就看到了这一点，而我要花费好多年，花费好长时间才明白。你能不能有 ——我不想用耐心这个词—— 你能不能有关心、关怀和爱，这样你就能理解我的愚蠢？我也许会反抗你。我也许会和你离婚。我也许会离开你。但是，你已经在我内心播下了种子。而这确实会发生，真的在生活中发生，不是吗？
8:43	S: Yes.	谢：是的。
8:45	H: You said something that interests me here, you said that if you have seen it immediately and the other person may take a long time to come to seeing it. And it seems like in this attention that you're talking about perception is immediate. K: Of course.	希：这里你说了一件我很感兴趣的事情，你说，如果你立刻就看到了，而另一个人也许要花费很长时间才能看到那一点。似乎在你谈到的这种关注中，洞察是即刻发生的。克：当然。
8:59	H: It isn't built up out of... K: Oh, no, then it's not perception.	希：它并非产生于…… 克：噢，不，那就不是洞察了。
9:04	H: That may be part of the reason the other person is having difficulty seeing it, is that they want it to be proved to them.	希：那也许就是另一个人很难看到的原因之一，他们想让别人证明给他们看。
9:09	K: You see conditioning is destructive, and I don't. H: Yes.	克：你看到制约具有毁灭性，而我没有看到。希：是的。
9:16	K: What is our relationship between us two? It's very difficult to communicate with each other...	克：我们两个人之间有什么关系？彼此之间很难沟通
9:23	H: Yes.	希：是的。
9:25	K: ...verbally or with care, it's very difficult, because...	克：……无论是用语言还是带着关怀，都很难，因为
9:29	H: You won't know what I'm talking about.	希：你不知道我在说什么。
9:31	K: No, and also I'm resisting you all the time. I'm defending myself.	克：不知道，而且我还一直在抗拒你。我捍卫我自己。
9:36	H: You're defending what you think you see.	希：你捍卫的是你认为自己看到的东西。
9:38	K: What I think is right. I have been brought up as a Hindu, or a British, or a German, or a Russian, whatever it is, and I see the danger of letting that go. I might lose my job. People will say I'm little-minded. People might say I depend on public opinion, so I'm frightened to let go. So, I stick to it. Then what is your relationship with me? Have you any relationship? H: No.	克：我所认为的是对的。我是作为一个印度教徒、一个英国人、一个德国人、一个俄国人，或者无论什么人，被抚养长大的，而我明白要放弃这一切有多危险。我也许会丢了工作。人们会说我疯了。人们也许会说我依赖公众的看法，所以我害怕放手。于是，我继续坚守那些。那么，你和我有什么关系？有任何关系吗？希：没有。
10:17	K: No, I question whether you have no relationship.	克：不，我质疑你是否与我没有任何关系。
10:20	H: I can tell you what I see.	希：我可以告诉你我所看到的。
10:22	K: Yes. But if you have love for me, real, not just attachment, and sex, and all that business, if you really care for me, you cannot lose that relationship. I may run away, but you have the feeling of relationship. I don't know if I am conveying what I mean.	克：是的。但如果你对我有爱，真正的爱，不是依恋和性以及诸如此类的东西，如果你真的关心我，你就不能失去那种关系。我也许会跑掉，但是你有那种关系感。我不知道我有没有说明白我的意思。
10:45	H: In other words, I don't just say, well, I see it and you don't, and if you're not going to listen, the heck with you.	希：换句话说，我不能只是说，哦，我看到了，你没有看到，如果你不想听，那就随你去吧。
10:50	K: No. But, sir, you have established a kind of relationship, perhaps very profound, when there is love. I may reject you, but you have that responsibility of love. Not only to the particular person, but to the whole of humanity. What do you say, sir, about all this?	克：不会。但是，先生，你建立了一种关系，也许非常深刻，如果有爱的话。我也许会拒绝你，但你有那种爱的责任。那不仅仅是对那个特定的人的爱，而是对整个人类的爱。关于这一切，你会怎么说，先生？
11:25	B: Well, I can't say a great deal more. I think that this care and attention are the essential points. And, for example, in the question of the observer and the observed, or the analyser and the analysed, the reason why that separation occurs is because there has not been enough attention.	博：哦，我说不了太多。我想，这种关怀和关注是核心问题。例如，在观察者和所观之物或者分析者和被分析之物的问题中，为什么会发生分裂的原因是因为没有足够的关注。
11:44	K: Attention, that's what I'm saying.	克：关注，那就是我所说的。
11:46	B: So that one has to have that same attitude even in looking at one's own psychological problems.	博：所以，即使在看的时候，你也需要有同样的态度，来看自己的心理问题。
11:56	H: An attitude of care?	希：关怀的态度？
11:58	B: Care and attention to what's going on. One starts to analyse by habit, and one might condemn that, for example, that would not be the right attitude. But one has to give care and attention to exactly what is happening in that, just as in relationship with people. And it's because that there was no attention or not the right kind of attention, that that division arose in the first place, and was sustained, right?	博：关心和关注所发生的事情。你习惯从分析开始，比如，你也许会谴责那件事情，而那不是正确的态度。但是，你需要切实对其中所发生的事情给予关心和关注，就像在与别人的关系中那样去关注。正是因为没有关注或者没有正确的关注，那种分裂才先是出现，然后再得以维系下去，对吗？
12:35	S: But it's possible to have perhaps this kind of attention towards people that we know: wives, children, friends, etc., but what about people we don't know? I mean, most of us have never met any Russians, for example, and we feel, many of us, there's this terrible fear of Russia, and Russian nuclear weapons, and the Russian threat, and all the rest of it. And so it's very easy to think, 'We've got to have all these bombs, and so on, because the Russians are so terrible'. We can think all these things about Russians; we've never met them. So, how do we have attention to enemies, or imagined enemies, that we don't know? K: What is an enemy? Is there such thing as an enemy?	谢：但是对我们认识的那些人：妻子、孩子、朋友，等等，可能会有这种关注，可对那些我们不认识的人呢？我是说，我们大部分人从未遇到过俄国人，比如说，我们很多人感觉到非常害怕俄国、俄国的核武器和俄国的威胁，以及诸如此类的一切。所以很容易就会认为：“我们得拥有所有这些炸弹，等等，因为俄国人太可怕了。” 我们可以思考所有这些关于俄国人的事情；我们从未见过他们。所以，我们如何去关注我们并不认识的敌人，或者假想的敌人？克：什么是敌人？有敌人这回事吗？
13:24	S: Well, there are enemies in the sense that there are people who...	谢：哦，敌人的意思是有些人他们
13:27	K: ...who disagree with you.	克：……与你意见不同。
13:29	S: Not only disagree… K: Who have definite idealistic, ideological differences.	谢：不只是意见不同…… 克：他们有着观念上的、意识形态上的明显分歧。
13:36	S: Well, they're usually people who are afraid of us, I mean, the Russians are afraid of us, and we're afraid of them, and because they're afraid of us, they're in a position of being our enemies.	谢：哦，他们通常是害怕我们的人，我是说，俄国人害怕我们，我们也害怕他们，因为他们害怕我们，他们就处在了我们的敌人的位置上。
13:46	K: Because we are still thinking in terms of tribalism.	克：因为我们还在以部落主义的方式思考。
13:50	S: Yes, certainly.	谢：是的，当然。
13:53	K: Supposing you and I move out of that. I'm Russian, you are English, or British, or German, or French. I move, I despise this sense of tribalism. What's my relationship then with you?	克：假设你和我从中走了出来。我是俄国人，你是英国人，或者德国人、法国人。我走了出来，我唾弃这种部落主义。那么我与你的关系是怎样的？
14:12	H: Well, we... K: I'm not Russian then.	希：哦，我们…… 克：我不再是俄国人了。
14:14	S: No. K: I'm a human being with all my psychological problems, and you are another human being with all your psychological problems. We are human beings, not labels.	谢：不是。克：我是人类的一员，有着我所有的心理问题，而你是人类的另一员，有着你所有的心理问题。我们都是人类，而不是标签。
14:31	B: Of course, the Russians may reject this, you see. Suppose, we're in this situation... K: We are in that.	博：当然，你看，俄国人也许会反对这一点。假设，我们处在这种情形下…… 克：我们就身处其中。
14:37	B: ...and the Russians will reject us, right? Then we have to… then what's the next step, right?	博：……而俄国人会反对我们，对吗？然后我们就不得不然后下一步该怎么办，对吗？
14:43	K: So what shall we do? You see, I represent all humanity. I am all humanity. I feel that way. To me it's an actuality, not just an emotional explosion, emotional, romantic idea. I feel I am the rest of mankind; I am mankind. Because I suffer, or I enjoy, I go through all the tortures, and so do you, so do you. So, you are the rest of mankind. And therefore you have terrible responsibility for that, in that. So when you meet a Russian, or a German, or a British, or Argentine, you treat them as human beings, not labels.	克：那么我们该怎么办？你看，我代表所有的人类。我就是整个人类。我是这么感觉的。对我来说，这是个事实，而不仅仅是一种感情爆发、一个情绪化的、浪漫的想法。我感觉我就是其他人类；我就是人类。因为我痛苦，或者我快乐，我经历了所有的折磨，而你也是，你也是。所以，你就是其他人类。所以，你在其中对整个人类负有无可推卸的巨大责任。所以，当你遇到一个俄国人，或者一个德国人、英国人、阿根廷人，你会把他们当做人类，而不是当做标签来对待。
15:49	S: Then does this simply mean that in this largely tribal society, with governments, and bombs, and weapons of war, there'll just be a few individual scattered here and there, who've dissolved tribalism in themselves?	谢：那是不是仅仅意味着，在这个很大程度上部落化的社会中，有着政府、炸弹和战争武器，只有分散在各处的几个人消除了自身的部落主义？
16:03	K: Yes. If a hundred of us all over the world really had a non-tribalistic attitude towards life, we would be acting like a... I don't know - like a light in the midst of darkness. But we don't. This just becomes an idealistic romantic idea, and you drop it, because each pursues his own way.	克：是的。如果全世界我们有一百个人真正拥有非部落主义的态度来对待生活，那么我们就会像……一样行动我不知道——像黑暗之中的一盏灯。但是我们没有。这只不过变成了一个理想化的浪漫想法，然后你把它丢掉，因为每个人都各行其是。
16:35	S: Yes.	谢：是的。
16:37	K: Sir, I think we ought to differentiate between attention and concentration. Concentration is focusing your energy on a certain point. And attention - there is no focusing on a certain point. It's attention.	克：先生，我想我们应该区分关注和专注。专注是将你的能量聚焦在某个点上。而关注—— 并不集中于某个点上。那是关注。
17:12	H: Concentration seems to have a goal in mind.	希：专注似乎心里有个目标。
17:15	K: A goal, motive. It's a restrictive process. I concentrate on a page, but my thoughts... I am looking out of the window, and I'll pull it back, and keep on this business. Whereas if I gave complete attention to what I am looking out of the window - that lizard which is going along the wall - and with that same attention I can look at my book, look what I am doing.	克：一个目标、动机。那是一个限制性的过程。我专注在书本上，而我的思绪我望向窗外然后我再收回来，此类的事情不断发生。然而，如果我全然关注我望向窗外看到的东西 ——爬在墙上的那个壁虎—— 我也用同样的关注来看我的书本、看我正在做的事情。
17:47	H: Concentration presupposes that there's a controller in there pulling it back. K: That's just it.	希：专注预设了一个控制者在那里把思绪拉回来。克：就是这样。
17:58	S: But then, if there's no controller of the attention, the attention is simply a response to whatever the present circumstances are.	谢：但是，如果没有关注的控制者关注就仅仅是对此刻环境的一种反应。
18:06	K: You insult me - I'm attentive. There is no recording that insult.	克：你侮辱了我——对此我全然关注。那么就不会记录那个侮辱。
18:20	B: Yes, I said.	博：是的，我说了。
18:23	K: You flatter me - a marvellous talk you gave the other day. I've heard this so often repeated. And I'm bored with it, so - I'm not only bored - I see, what? You follow, sir? Is it possible - really, that's the much more difficult question - is it possible not to record except where it is necessary? It's necessary to record when you are driving. To learn how to drive. Record when you do your business, and all the rest of it. But psychologically, what is the need to record?	克：你恭维我——那天你的讲话真是精彩。我经常听到有人这么说。而我厌倦了这个说法，所以 ——我不仅仅是厌倦——我看到了，什么？你明白吗，先生？有没有可能——真的，这是一个更加困难的问题—— 有没有可能不去记录，除非必要的时候？你开车的时候有必要记录。为了学习如何驾驶。当你做生意的时候，诸如此类的时候，要记录。但是心理上，有什么必要记录呢？
19:07	S: Isn't it inevitable? Doesn't our memory work automatically?	谢：这难道不是无法避免的吗？我们的记忆不是自动工作的吗？
19:11	K: Memory is rather selective.	克：记忆是相当有选择性的。
19:15	H: We seem to remember things that are important to us...	希：我们似乎会记住对我们来说重要的事情
19:18	S: Yes. H: ...have some... connect in with who we think we are and what our goals are.	谢：是的。希：……有某些联系，与我们以为我们是谁和我们的目标是什么有关联的事情。
19:24	B: But it seems to me that when there is paying attention then in general attention determines what is to be recorded and what is not, that is, it is not automatic anymore.	博：但是，在我看来，当关注时，通常关注会决定要记录什么、不记录什么，也就是说那就不再是自动的了。
19:35	K: It's not automatic any more. Quite right.	克：不再是自动的了。很对。
19:37	B: If it comes from the past, from the concentration, or from the analysis, then it will be automatic.	博：如果它来自于过去、来自于专注或者来自于分析，那么就会是自动的。
19:46	K: Another problem which we ought to discuss - we said yesterday we would - religion, meditation, and if there is something sacred. We said we would talk about that. Is there anything sacred in life? Not thought creating something sacred and then worshipping that sacred, which is absurd. The symbols in all the Indian temples, they're images, like in the Christian church, or the Muslim in the mosque, there is this marvellous writing, it's the same. And we worship that.	克：我们应该探讨的另一个问题是 ——我们昨天说我们会讨论的——宗教和冥想，以及是否存在某种神圣之物。我们说过我们会谈到这些问题的。生命中有任何神圣的东西吗？不是思想制造出某种神圣的东西，然后再膜拜那神圣，这很荒谬。印度所有寺庙中的符号，它们都是些形象，就像基督教堂里或者穆斯林清真寺里那样，有着奇妙的文字，它们都是一回事。而我们膜拜那些。
20:48	H: That's idolatry. K: No. Thought has created this. The thought has created the image and then it worships it. I don't know if you see the absurdity of it.	希：那是偶像崇拜。克：不。是思想制造了这些。思想制造出偶像，然后崇拜它。我不知道你是否看到了其荒谬性。
21:06	H: Yes.	希：是的。
21:07	S: Well, that's manifestly absurd, but the more sophisticated members of different religions would say that it's not the thought, the image that's created by thought that's being worshipped, but the image points to something beyond thought which is being worshipped. K: Wait a minute, let's look at it. That is, the symbol, we know symbol is not the real, but why do we create the symbol? Please answer it. If there is something beyond, why do we create the intermediary?	谢：哦，那显然很荒唐，但是，各派宗教中更高层的成员会说那不是思想，被膜拜的偶像是思想制造的，但偶像指向了某种超越思想的东西，膜拜的是它们。克：等一下，我们来看一看。也就是说，符号，我们知道符号并非真实之物，但我们为什么要创造出符号呢？请回答这个问题。如果有某种超越的东西，我们为什么要创造出中间的媒介呢？
21:47	S: Well, I think that this is a question which in certain religions has been central to them. The Jews who were against all idolatry for exactly this reason, and the Muslims, who don't have images in the mosques.	谢：哦，我想这个问题对于某些宗教来说是核心的问题。犹太教徒正是因为这个原因而反对所有的偶像崇拜，还有穆斯林，他们的清真寺里没有偶像。
22:00	K: No, but they have these scripts. S: They have writing.	克：没有，但是他们有那些原始文字。谢：他们有文字记载。
22:03	K: Of course.	克：当然。
22:05	S: Well, they think writing is what tells them about what lies beyond all symbols. K: Yes.	谢：哦，他们认为文字告诉了他们所有符号背后隐含的东西。克：是的。
22:11	S: Now, you could say the writing simply becomes a symbol, but I mean, these are words, and words can help us. We're having a discussion, and these words that we're having, your words may help me, for example, if they're written down, then they're written words like Muslim words.	谢：那么，你可以说文字只不过变成了符号，但我的意思是，这些是词语，而词语可以帮助我们。我们在讨论，而我们使用的这些词语，你的词语可以帮助我，比如说，如果把它们写下来，然后它们就成了书面文字，就像穆斯林文字一样。
22:27	K: So, why do I have to have an intermediary at all?	克：那么，我究竟为什么要有个中介呢？
22:38	H: Because I think I'm here, and it's over there, and I don't have it. I need some way to get there.	希：因为我认为我在这里，而它在那里，我没有它。我需要一条路到达那里。
22:44	K: No, you're not answering my question. Is it that you, the intermediary, understand, or realised, or follow truth, or whatever it is, and therefore you are telling me about it?	克：不，你没有回答我的问题。是不是你，中介理解了或者意识到了，或者追随了真理，或者无论什么，于是你来告诉我？
23:03	H: Maybe I've seen something and I want to tell you about it.	希：也许我看到了什么，我想告诉你关于它的事情。
23:06	K: Yes, tell me about it, but why do you make yourself interpreter? Why do you become the intermediary between that - I don't know what that is - and me, who is ignorant, who is suffering? Why don't you deal with my suffering rather than with that?	克：是的，告诉我，但是你为什么把自己变成诠释者呢？你为什么变成了它 ——我不知道那是什么—— 和我之间的中介呢，而我无知又痛苦？你为什么不处理我的痛苦，而是去处理它呢？
23:26	H: I think that that will deal with your suffering. If I can get you to...	希：我认为它能处理你的痛苦。如果我能把你带到
23:31	K: That has been, sir, that has been the old trick of all the priests in the world. We have had priests from time immemorial, right? H: Yes.	克：这就是，先生，这就是世界上所有的神父耍的老一套把戏。我们从远古时代开始就有了神父，对吗？希：是的。
23:48	K: But you haven't released my sorrow. I am still suffering after a million years. What for? Help me to get rid of that. Help me to be free, without fear, then I'll find out. Is it that you want position, power, status, like the rest of the world. Now, this is really quite serious.	克：但你还是没有消除我的悲伤。一百万年之后，我依然痛苦。为什么？帮我除掉它。帮我解脱，免除恐惧，然后我会发现的。是不是因为你想要地位、权力和身份，就像世界上其他的人那样？而这真的非常严肃。
24:27	B: I think, if we try to give the priests the most favourable interpretation, that they may have considered, at least the best among them, that there's a kind of poetic imagery that people may use to point to something beyond that - right? - in a communication, they are trying to point to this sacred which we were talking about. That's perhaps the way they would look at it. Now, would you say that that would make no sense, you know, to have a poetic image to point to the sacred.	博：我想，如果我们试图为神父做出一种最受欢迎的解释，那就是，他们也许认为，至少他们中最优秀的那些人认为，有某种诗意的想象，人们可以用来指代某种超越之物——对吗？—— 在沟通中，他们试图指向我们所说的那种神圣。那或许就是他们看待这件事情的方式。那么，你会不会说那没什么意义，你知道，用一个诗意的形象指向那神圣者，毫无意义。
24:57	K: But, sir, why don't you help me to see what is happening to me?	克：但是，先生，你为什么不帮助我看到我身上发生着的事情？
25:04	B: Yes, that's your point, don't point to the sacred right away, but look at this first.	博：是的，那就是你的意思，不要立刻指向神圣者，而是先来看看这个。
25:08	K: Help me to be free of it, then I'll walk.	克：帮我摆脱它，然后我会自己走。
25:10	B: Yes, I understand that.	博：是的，我明白那一点。
25:14	K: We have never talked - nobody has gone into this like that. Always God, some saviour, some Brahma, and so on, so on. And this is what we call religion. All the rituals are invented by thought, marvellous architecture - by thought, all the things inside the churches, temples, mosques, created by thought. And having thought create it, then thought worships it. But thought is not sacred.	克：我们从未探讨过——没人曾经这样深入探究过这个问题。总是说神明，某个救世主、某个大梵天，等等等等。而这就是我们所谓的宗教。所有的仪式都由思想所发明，美妙的建筑——由思想所造，教堂、寺庙、清真寺里的所有东西，由思想所造。思想制造出来，然后思想再膜拜它。但思想并不神圣。
25:59	H: Yes, I see that. So you are saying, is it possible to put a stop to thought?	希：是的，我明白这一点。所以，你说的是，有没有可能停止思想？
26:03	K: Thought. Is it possible?	克：思想。可能吗？
26:05	H: And thought is the thing that gets in the way by creating the images... K: Of course.	希：思想是从中作梗的障碍，它制造出形象…… 克：当然。
26:09	H: ...which we take for something really valuable.	希：……而我们把这些形象当成非常珍贵的东西。
26:11	K: I start out looking for something sacred. You come along and say, 'I'll tell you all about it'. Then you begin to organise it. It's all gone by then, it's finished.	克：我开始寻找某种神圣之物。你走过来说： “我来告诉你有关的一切。”然后你开始进行组织。到此，一切都完了、结束了。
26:28	H: Then I just stay within thought, that's all I have.	希：那么我只说，在思想的范围内，那就是我所有的全部了。
26:30	K: So, if we reject, or understand, that thought is not sacred, there's nothing holy about thought, but thought thinks that what it has created is holy. Right, sir? B: Right. Would you also add that, just for the sake of… that time is not sacred? K: Time, of course, not.	克：所以，如果我们摒弃或者懂得思想并不神圣，那么思想确实毫无神圣之处，而思想以为它所创造的东西是神圣的。对吗，先生？博：对。你会不会接着说，看在……的份上，时间并不神圣？克：时间，当然不神圣。
26:55	B: Nothing in time, people would say that.	博：时间中的一切都不神圣，人们会这么说。
26:57	K: Tomorrow is not sacred!	克：明天并不神圣！
26:58	B: They always say, only the eternal is sacred.	博：他们总是说，只有永恒者是神圣的。
27:01	K: But to find out what is eternity, time must stop.	克：而若要发现永恒是什么，时间必须停止。
27:07	H: But we get into a real subtle place here, because you have said things like absolute attention dissolves the self. Then absolute attention can become a thought.	希：但是这里我们到了一个非常微妙的地方，因为你说过像彻底的关注这样的事情会消除自我。然后彻底的关注会变成一个思想。
27:17	K: Idea of it, yes. H: Yes, the idea of it. So we may go the route of creating the idea. That seems to always be the danger. K: Sir, you make a statement...	克：对它的想法，是的。希：是的，对它的想法。所以我们也许会走上制造想法的路。那看起来始终是危险所在。克：先生，你给出了一个说法
27:27	H: Yes.	希：是的。
27:29	K: ...'absolute attention'. I don't capture the depth of your meaning, what is implied. You have gone into it, and you can say that - absolute attention. I hear it and make it into an idea. And then I pursue the idea.	克：……“彻底的关注”。我无法把握你深层的含义，它意味着什么。你深入探索过这个问题，你可以那么说——彻底的关注。我听到了，并把它变成了一个想法。然后我追逐那个想法。
27:50	H: That seems to be the process. K: That's what we do all the time.	希：似乎过程就是这样的。克：这是我们一直在做的事情。
27:53	S: Yes.	谢：是的。
27:54	K: So - gone. Idea is not what you've said. What you said had depth in it, had some...	克：所以——完了。你所说的不是想法。你所说的东西有它的深度，有某种
28:02	H: But we don't know that we're pursuing an idea. We don't realise at the time that we're pursuing an idea.	希：但我们不知道我们在追逐想法。我们当时并没有意识到我们在追逐想法。
28:08	K: Of course not, because I am used to this reducing everything to abstract ideas. So, could we try to find out, or realise, that anything thought does is not sacred?	克：当然没有，因为我习惯了这种把一切都降减为抽象的想法的过程。所以，我们能否试着去发现，或者意识到，思想所做的一切都不是神圣的？
28:40	S: That seems self-evident to me.	谢：这对我来说是不言自明的。
28:43	K: All right. That's self-evident. In all the religions as they are now - there is nothing sacred. Right?	克：好吧。那是不言自明的。在当今的一切宗教中——没有什么神圣可言。对吗？
28:54	S: No, there's nothing sacred in itself in the words, or the buildings, or the… and so on. But in a sense all these religions are supposed to point beyond themselves.	谢：没有，文字中、建筑中或者……等等之中，本身没有神圣可言。但是，在某种意义上，所有这些宗教都试图指向超越自身之处。
29:06	K: Yes. And to help me to go beyond all this, I must start with my being free from my agony, understand my relationship with people. If there is confusion here, in my heart and my mind, what's the good of the other? I am not materialistic. I am not anti… the other. But I say, 'Look, I must start where I am'. To go very far, I must start very near. I am very near. So I must understand myself. I'm the rest of humanity. I am not an individual. So, there is the book of humanity in me. I am that book. If I know how to read it, from the beginning to the end, then I can go... then I will find if there is a possibility... if there is really something that is immense, sacred. But if you are all the time saying, 'Look, there is that, that will help you', I say, 'It hasn't helped me'. We have had these religions for millions of years. That hasn't - on the contrary, you have distracted from 'what is'. So, if I want to find out if there is anything sacred, I must start very near. The very near is me. And can I free myself from fear, agony, sorrow, despair - all that? When there is freedom I can move, I can climb mountains.	克：是的。而若要帮助我超越这一切，我就必须从摆脱我的痛苦、了解我与别人的关系开始。如果我的内心、我的头脑是混乱的，那么另一个又有什么意义？我不是唯物主义。我并不反对……另一个。但是我说：“看，我必须从我所在的地方出发。” 若要走得很远，我必须从近处出发。我在很近的地方。所以我必须了解自己。我就是其他人类。我不是一个个人。所以，人类这本书就在我身上。我就是这本书。如果我知道如何从头到尾地阅读它，那我就能够走远那么我就会发现有没有可能是不是真的有某种无限而神圣的东西。但是，如果你不停地告诉我：“看，有这个东西，它能帮助你，”我说：“它没有帮我。” 我们的这些宗教已经存在了几百万年。它并没有——相反，你背离了“实然”。所以，如果我想发现有没有什么神圣的东西，我就必须从近处开始。近处就是我。而我能否让自己摆脱恐惧、痛苦、悲伤和绝望——那一切？有了自由我就能活动了，我可以爬上高山。
31:36	S: Sir, are you saying that the sacred would become apparent if we dissolved fear and all these other things.	谢：先生，你是不是说如果我们消除了恐惧以及诸如此类的东西，神圣者就会变得显而易见。
31:42	K: Obviously, sir. That's real meditation, you see.	克：显然如此，先生。你看，这是真正的冥想。
31:51	S: Through attention to what is really happening in us.	谢：通过关注我们身上实际正在发生的事情。
31:54	K: Happening, yes, that's it.	克：发生，是的，就是这样。
31:56	S: And what is really happening between us and other people, and all the rest of it. K: Between our relationships.	谢：还有我们和别人之间实际上发生着的事情以及诸如此类的一切。克：在我们的关系中。
32:01	S: Yes. Through attention to this, this action...	谢：是的。通过关注这些，这种行动
32:05	K: Attention, and we have discussed, too, with Dr. Bohm, some time ago, having an insight into the whole movement of the self, which is not a remembrance. Insight is total perception of what you are, without analysis, without investigation - all that. Total immediate perception of the whole content of your consciousness, not take bit, by bit, by bit - that's endless.	克：关注，而一段时间以前，我们也曾经和博姆博士探讨过，对自我的整个活动有一种洞察，而那不是记忆。洞察是整体地看到你现在如何，没有分析、没有研究——没有此类的一切。即刻完整地洞察你意识的全部内容，而不是一点一点地进行——那就没完没了了。
32:54	H: Oh, we're broken up, so we look at each little piece.	希：噢，我们是支离破碎的，所以我们看着每一个小碎片。
32:56	K: Yes. And because we are broken up, we can never see the whole. Obviously, that seems so logical! H: Okay.	克：是的。因为我们破碎不堪，所以我们从未看到整体。很显然，这看起来太符合逻辑了！希：好的。
33:06	K: So, is it possible not to be broken up? What is to be broken up? This confusion, this mess in consciousness, which we talked about yesterday. You see, nobody wants to go so deeply into all this. Right, sir? First of all, one hasn't the time, one is committed to one's job, to one's profession, or to one's science, to one's whatever one is doing. And you say, 'Please, this is too difficult, or too abstract, not practical' - that's the word they all use. As though all this, what you are doing and all is terribly practical. Armaments - is it practical? Tribalism, is... oh, well, you know all about it. So, sir, let's move from there. Is silence of the mind a state of attention? Or is it beyond attention? I don't know if I'm…	克：那么，有没有可能不支离破碎？破碎的是什么？意识中的这困惑、这混乱，我们昨天谈过了。你看，没有人愿意如此深入地探索这一切。对吗，先生？首先，你没有时间，你得投身于工作之中，投身于你的职业、你的科研或者无论你所做的什么事情当中。你说：“拜托，这太难了，或者太抽象了，不实际”——这就是他们所有人都会用到的说辞。就好像你现在所做的这一切有多么实际似的。武器装备——那实际吗？部落主义，那噢，好，这些你都知道。那么，先生，让我们从这里开始。头脑的安静是一种关注状态吗？抑或超越了关注？我不知道我是不是
34:38	B: What would you mean by 'beyond attention'? Let's try to get into that.	博：你说的“超越关注”是什么意思？我们试着探讨一下。
34:48	K: In attention is there… Is attention an act of will? I will attend.	克：关注中有没有关注是意志力的行为吗？我要关注。
34:58	H: No, we said that's concentration.	希：不是，我们说过那是专注。
35:01	K: Sir, I am asking you, where there is attention, is there any kind of effort? Struggle? 'I must attend'. What is attention? Let's go into it a little bit. What is attention? The word 'diligent' is implied in attention. To be diligent. Not negligent.	克：先生，我问你，如果有关注，还会有任何努力吗？挣扎？“我必须关注。” 什么是关注？我们再深入一点点。什么是关注？关注中隐含着“勤奋”这个词。勤奋，而不是懈怠。
35:48	S: What does diligent mean? Careful? You mean careful?	谢：勤奋意味着什么？细心？你是说细心？
35:52	K: Yes. Care. To be very precise. Diligent.	克：是的。细心。非常精确。勤奋。
35:58	B: The literal meaning is 'taking pains'.	博：它字面上的意思是“辛苦劳作。”
36:00	K: Pains, that's right. Taking pain. Which is to care, to have affection, to do everything correctly, orderly. Not repetitive. Does attention demand the action of thought?	克：辛劳，对。辛苦劳作。也就是去关心、怀着爱，做任何事情都准确而有序。不是重复。关注需要思想活动吗？
36:33	S: Well, it doesn't demand the action of analysis, in the way you've explained it. K: No, certainly.	谢：哦，它不需要分析活动，就像你说的那样。克：不需要，当然。
36:37	S: And insofar as thought is analytical, it doesn't demand that. And it doesn't demand the action of will, insofar as will involves a separation, an attempt to, by one part of the mind, force another part to do something else. And it doesn't imply any sense of going anywhere or becoming anything, because becoming leads one out of the present.	谢：既然思想是分析性的，所以不需要思想。它也不需要意志力的行为，因为意志会引起分裂，头脑的一部分企图强迫另一部分去做别的事情。它没有隐含丝毫想要去哪里或者成为什么的意思，因为成为什么会让你脱离现在。
37:03	K: That's right. You can't become attentive.	克：对。你无法变得关注。
37:07	S: But in the act of attention... K: Just see what is implied in it. You can't become attentive. That means in attention there is no time. Becoming implies time. S: Yes.	谢：但是在关注的行动中…… 克：只是来看看其中隐含了什么。你无法变得关注。那意味着关注中没有时间。而变成意味着时间。谢：是的。
37:22	K: In attention there is no time. Therefore it is not the result of thought.	克：关注中没有时间。所以它不是思想的结果。
37:29	S: Yes.	谢：是的。
37:39	K: Now, is that attention silence of the mind? Which is a healthy, sane mind, uncluttered, unattached unanchored, free mind, which is the healthiest mind. Therefore I am asking, out of that… in that attention, is the mind silent? There is no movement of thought.	克：那么，那种关注是头脑的安静吗？那是一个健康的、清明的头脑，没有被塞满，不依附、不固着，自由的头脑，是最健康的头脑。所以我在问，从中在那关注中，头脑是安静的吗？没有任何思想活动。
38:30	S: Well, it sounds like it, yes. It sounds like a state of being rather than a state of becoming, because it's not going anywhere or coming from anywhere. K: Again, when you say 'being' what does that mean? Being what?	谢：哦，听起来像，是的。听起来像是一种存在状态，而不是一种成为状态，因为它既没有去处，也没有来处。克：再者，你说“存在”，那是什么意思？作为什么存在？
38:50	S: Well, being what it is. It's not being something else.	谢：哦，作为它现在的样子。而不是成为别的什么。
38:53	K: No, what does that mean, 'being'? Are you putting 'being' as an opposite to becoming?	克：不，那是什么意思，“存在”？你是把“存在”当作成为的对立面吗？
39:02	S: Yes. K: Ah, then... the opposite has its own opposite.	谢：是的。克：啊，那么这个对立面就会有自己的反面。
39:09	S: Well, by 'being' I simply mean a state which is not in a process of going somewhere else in time.	谢：哦，说“存在”，我的意思只是说一种状态，它没有处在花时间去别处的过程之中。
39:19	K: Which means non-movement.	克：那意味着不运动。
39:26	S: I suppose so. B: You could say that, yes.	谢：我想是这样的。博：你可以这么说，是的。
39:30	K: Non-movement.	克：不运动。
39:31	B: If you say what you mean by movement, that it doesn't mean it's static, to say it's non-movement.	博：如果按照你说的运动所指的意思，说它是不运动，并不意味着它是静态的。
39:35	K: No, it's dynamic, of course.	克：不，它是动态的，当然。
39:37	B: Dynamic, but it's a little difficult.	博：动态的，但是这有点难。
39:39	K: There is no moving from here to there.	克：没有从这到那的运动。
39:42	B: But there is another kind of movement, perhaps.	博：但是或许有另一种运动。
39:45	K: That's what I want to go into. If we use the word 'being', without movement, it is without thought, without time, which is the movement which we know. But the other has its own dynamism, its own movement, but not this movement, the time movement, the thought movement. Is that what you call 'being'?	克：那就是我想探讨的。如果我们用“存在”这个词，没有运动，那么它就没有思想、没有时间，时间是我们所知道的运动。但是另一个有它自身的动力、它自身的运动，但不是这种运动，这种时间运动、思想运动。那就是你所说的“存在”吗？
40:31	S: I suppose it is.	谢：我想是的。
40:39	K: Is that 'being' silent? You follow, sir? We have various forms of silence. Right? S: Yes. It may not be silent in the sense of soundless.	克：那“存在”是安静的吗？你明白吗，先生？我们有各种形式的安静。对吗？谢：是的。它也许不是指没有声音的安静。
41:01	K: I am using the word 'silence' in the sense, without a single movement of thought.	克：我用“安静”这个词所指的含义是没有丝毫思想的运动。
41:09	S: Well, in that sense it must be silent, almost by definition.	谢：哦，在那种意义上它必然是安静的，几乎是顾名思义。
41:12	K: Yes. So, has my mind, the mind, has it stopped thinking? Has - not stopped thinking - has thought found its own place and therefore it's no longer moving, chattering, pushing around? Because there is no controller. You follow? Because when there is a great silence then that which is eternal is. You don't have to enquire about it. It's not a process. It isn't something you achieve, my god! By fasting, by rituals, by all these absurdities. Sir, you hear that. H: Yes.	克：是的。那么，我的头脑，头脑，是否停止了思考？是否——不是停止思考——思想是否找到了自己的位置，因而它不再运动、聒噪、四处冲撞？因为没有控制者。你明白吗？因为当有了巨大的寂静，就有了永恒。你无需再去探询它。这不是一个过程。它不是你要实现的某件事情，我的天！通过斋戒、仪式，通过所有那些愚蠢的作为。先生，你听到了这些。希：是的。
42:29	K: You hear X saying that. What value has it? Value in the sense - what do you do with it? Has it any importance or none at all? Because you are going your way. You are a psychologist, you'll go your way, I'll go my way, because I have said what I have to say, and there it ends. Then what? Somebody comes along and says, 'I'll tell you what he means'. You haven't the time. He has a little time, he says, 'I'll tell you all about it'. And you are caught. This is what is happening. From the ancient of times, the Sumerians, the Egyptians, the Babylonians - they have played this. And we are doing still the same kind of nonsense. And I say, what has religion done to man? It hasn't helped him. It has given him romantic illusory comfort. Actually look what - we're killing each other - I won't go into that. So, sir, let's begin. What is a healthy mind?	克：你听到了甲这么说。这有什么价值吗？价值的意思是——你用它做什么？它有什么重要性吗，抑或根本不重要？因为你正自行其是。你是个心理学家，你会走你的路，而我会走我的路，因为我说了我必须要说的话，然后到此为止。然后会怎么样？有人过来说：“我来告诉你他是什么意思。” 你没有时间。他有点时间，他说： “我来告诉你有关的一切。” 然后你就被困住了。这就是正在发生的事情。从远古时代开始，苏美尔人、埃及人、巴比伦人——他们都玩过这个。而我们还在继续做着同样愚蠢的事情。而我说，宗教对人类做了什么？它没有帮助人类。它给了人们浪漫而虚幻的安慰。切实地看一看——我们正在自相残杀——我不会深入说那些。所以，先生，让我们开始吧。什么是一颗健康的心灵？
44:28	H: It's a mind that's not caught so in this...	希：那颗心没有陷入这些
44:31	K: A mind that's whole, healthy, sane, holy - H-O-L-Y - holy. All that means a healthy mind. That's what we started discussing. What is a healthy mind? The world is so neurotic. How are we going to tell you, as an analyst, as a psychologist, how are you going to tell people what is a healthy mind, nobody's going to pay attention to it. They'll listen to the tape, to television, they'll agree, but they'll go on their own way. So what do we do? How do we… First of all, do I have a healthy mind? Or is it just a lot of pictures, words, images? A mind that's totally unattached to my country, to my ideas, all totally dispassionately unattached.	克：一颗完整、健康、清醒、神圣——H-O-L-Y——神圣的心。所有这些都意味着一颗健康的心。这就是我们开始讨论的问题。什么是一颗健康的心灵？这个世界是如此神经质。我们要如何告诉你，作为一个分析家、一个心理学家，你要如何告诉人们什么是一颗健康的心灵，没人愿意关注这个问题。他们会听磁带里、电视里是怎么说的，他们会同意，但继续走自己的路。那么我们该怎么办？我们该怎么首先，我是否拥有一颗健康的心？或者那颗心只不过是一堆画面、文字和图像？一颗完全脱离了我的国家、我的观念的心，冷静地彻底脱离了那一切。
45:58	H: Are you suggesting that only then am I in a position to talk to anybody? K: Obviously. Obviously. I may be married, I may, but why should I be attached to my wife?	希：你是不是说，只有此时，我才能处于一个能对所有人讲话的位置？克：显然如此。显然如此。我也许结婚了，我也许，但是我为什么要依附于我的妻子呢？
46:14	H: Then it's an idea of marriage, it's not a marriage.	希：那样就是关于婚姻的观念了，而不再是婚姻。
46:17	K: But love is not attachment. So, have I realised that in my life? A healthy mind that says, 'I love, therefore there is no attachment'. Is that possible?	克：但爱不是依附。所以，我在自己的生活中意识到这一点了吗？一颗健康的心会说：“我爱着，所以没有依附。” 那可能吗？
46:35	S: Sir, you make it sound so easy and so difficult at the same time, because... K: I don't see why it's difficult.	谢：先生，你让这件事情听起来是那么容易，可同时又是那么难，因为…… 克：我不明白为什么很难。
46:43	S: Because, you see, I hear what you say, I think this is absolutely wonderful stuff. I want to have a healthy mind, I want to be in a state of being, and then I realise that it's back into this, that I can't become in a state of having a healthy mind, and I can't move by an act of will or desire into this state. It has to happen. And it can't happen through any act of my will.	谢：因为，你看，我听到了你所说的话，我想这真是件极其美妙的事情。我想拥有一颗健康的心灵，我想身处存在的状态中，然后我意识到我又回到了这个状态，即我无法进入那样一个拥有健康心灵的状态中，我无法通过意志力的行动或者通过欲望进入那个状态中。它得自己发生。它无法通过我的意志行为发生。
47:08	K: No. So…	克：不能。所以
47:10	S: So I have to let it happen in some sense.	谢：所以从某种意义上来讲，我得让它发生。
47:12	K: So we begin to enquire. You begin to say, now, why? Why am I not healthy? Am I attached to my house? I need a house, why should I be attached to it? A wife, relationship, I can't exist without relationship, life is relationship. But why should I be attached to a person? Or to an idea, to a faith, to a symbol - you follow? - the whole cycle of it: to a nation, to my guru, to my god. You follow? Attached means attached right through. A mind can be free of all that. Of course it can.	克：所以我们开始探询。于是，你开始说，为什么？我为什么不健康？我依恋我的房子吗？我需要一个房子，我为什么要依恋它呢？妻子、关系，我无法脱离关系而存在，生活就是关系。但是，我为什么要依恋某个人呢？或者某个想法、某个信念、某个符号——你明白吗？—— 这整个循环：依附于我的国家、我的古鲁、我的神明。你明白吗？依附意味着始终是固着的。心灵可以摆脱那一切。它当然可以。
47:58	S: But not just by wanting to be free of it.	谢：但不是仅仅想摆脱就可以摆脱的。
48:00	K: No. But seeing the consequences of it, seeing what is involved in it, the pain, the pleasure, the agony, the fear - you follow? - all of that is involved in it. Such a mind is an unhealthy mind.	克：对。但看到依附的后果，看到它隐含了什么，痛苦、快乐、悲伤、恐惧——你明白吗？—— 那一切都隐含其中。这样的一颗心是不健康的心灵。
48:26	S: Yes, but one can even agree with that, one can even see it, one can even see the movements of one's attachments, one can even see the destructive consequences of all this. But that doesn't in itself seem automatically to dissolve it.	谢：是的，但你甚至可以同意这一点，你甚至可以看到这一点，你甚至可以看到自己依恋的活动，你甚至可以看到这一切所具有的毁灭性后果。但这本身似乎并不能自动消除依附。
48:39	K: Of course not. So, it brings in quite a different question. Which is, sir, do you hear it merely with your sensory ears, or do you really hear it? You understand my question? S: Yes.	克：当然不能。所以，这带来了另一个问题。也就是，先生，你是仅仅用你感官的耳朵听到了呢，还是真正听到了呢？你明白我的问题吗？谢：是的。
48:59	K: Is it just casual, verbal, sensory hearing, or hearing at depth? If you hear it at the greatest depth, then it's part of you. I don't know if...	克：只是随意的、语言上的、感官上的听到呢，还是深刻地听到了？如果你极其深入地倾听了，那么它就是你的一部分了。我不知道是不是
49:23	B: I think that generally one doesn't hear at the greatest depth, and something is stopping it, you see. All the conditioning.	博：我想通常人并没有极其深入地倾听，有某种东西挡住了倾听，你看。所有的制约。
49:31	K: And also, probably we don't want to hear it.	克：还有，也许我们不想听到。
49:34	B: But the conditioning makes us not want to hear it.	博：而是那制约让我们不想听。
49:36	K: Of course, of course.	克：当然，当然。
49:38	B: We're unwilling to do so.	博：我们不愿意这么做。
49:40	K: How can I say to my wife, 'I love you but I am not attached'? She'll say, 'What the hell are you talking about?' But if one sees the absolute necessity to have a healthy mind, and the demand for it, not only in myself, but in my children, my society.	克：我要如何告诉我妻子：“我爱你，但我不依恋你？” 她会说：“你究竟在说些什么啊？”（笑）但是，如果你看到了拥有一颗健康的心灵是多么的必要，多么需要它，不仅仅是我自己身上，而且我的孩子们、我的社会都需要。
50:23	H: But you don't mean by that going around demanding of myself and other people that they become healthy.	希：但是，你并不是说四处去要求自己和别人必须变得健康。
50:27	K: No, no. I demand in myself. I ask why is not my mind healthy? Why is it neurotic? Then I begin to enquire. I watch, I attend, I am diligent in what I am doing.	克：不，不。我要求自己。我问自己我的心灵为什么不健康？它为什么神经质？然后我开始探询。我观察，我关注，我勤奋地做我所做的事情。
50:53	B: It seems to me that you said that we must have to see the absolute necessity of a healthy mind, but I think, we've been conditioned to the absolute necessity of maintaining attachment. And that's what we hear, right?	博：在我看来，你说我们必须得看到健康心灵绝对的必要性，但是我想，我们之前所受的制约认为绝对必要的是保持依附状态。（笑）这就是我们所听到的，对吗？
51:10	S: Well, we haven't necessarily, there are many people, who've seen that there's all these problems, there's something wrong with the mind, they feel that something to be done about it, and all that, and then take up some kind of spiritual practice, meditation, whatnot. Now, you're saying that all these kinds of meditation, concentrating on chakras, and whatnot, are all just the same kind of thing.	谢：哦，我们并没有真的听到，有很多人，看到了所有这些问题，看到了心灵有什么地方不对，他们觉得需要对它和那一切做点什么，然后开始从事某种精神练习、冥想以及诸如此类的东西。现在，你说所有的这些冥想，专注于七轮以及诸如此类的东西，都只不过是一回事。
51:34	K: I have played that trick long ago.	克：我早就耍过这些把戏了。
51:37	S: Yes.	谢：是的。
51:40	K: And I see the absurdity of all that. That is not going to stop thought.	克：我看到了那一切的荒谬。那不会停止思想。
51:48	S: Well, some of these methods are supposed to. I don't know if they do or not. They've never done it for me, or... but I don't know if that's because I haven't done them enough.	谢：哦，某些方法应该可以。我不知道它们能不能。它们从没让我做到过，或者但是我不知道是不是因为我做得不够。
52:00	K: So, instead of going through all that business why don't you find out, let's find out what is thought, whether it can end, what is implied. You follow? Dig! Sir, at the end of these four discussions have you got healthy minds? Have you got a mind that is not confused, groping, floundering, demanding, asking? You follow, sir? What a business! It's like seeing a rattler and say, 'Yes, that's a rattler, I won't go near it'. Finished!	克：所以，与其从事那些事情，你为什么不去发现，我们一起来发现思想是什么，它能否停止，它意味着什么。你明白吗？挖掘！先生，在这四次讨论的末尾，你拥有了健康的心灵吗？你拥有了一颗不困惑、探索、搜寻、求索和质询的心灵吗？你明白吗，先生？这是怎样的一件事情啊！就像看到一条响尾蛇，然后说： “是的，那是一条响尾蛇，我不会走近的。”完了！
53:01	H: It looks from the inside like this is a tremendous deep problem, that's very difficult to solve, and you're saying from the outside, that it's just like seeing a rattler, and you don't go near it, there's nothing to it.	希：从内在看，似乎有深刻而巨大的问题，它很难解决，而你从外在说，那就好像看到了一条响尾蛇，你不走近它，没有别的了。
53:13	K: It is like that with me. H: Yes.	克：对我来说就是这样的。希：是的。
53:16	K: Because I don't want to achieve nirvana, or heaven, or anything. I say, 'Look' - you follow?	克：因为我不想到达涅槃、天堂或者任何东西。我说：“看”——你明白吗？
53:23	H: Well, I think it's interesting, why it looks so deep when in fact it isn't.	希：哦。我想这很有趣，为什么它看起来那么艰深，而事实上并非如此。
53:30	K: No, sir, we are all so very superficial. Right? And that seems to satisfy us. That's our... good house, good wife, good job, good relationship - don't disturb anything. I'll go to church, you go to the mosque, I'll go to the temple - keep things as they are.	克：不，先生，我们都太肤浅了。对吗？而那似乎让我们很满意。那是我们的……漂亮房子、漂亮妻子，好工作、良好的关系——不要扰乱任何事情。我会去教堂，你去清真寺，我会去寺庙——让事情保持原样。
53:59	H: Then you're saying, we don't even want to look at it.	希：于是你说，我们甚至都不愿意看一看。
54:01	K: Of course not. H: But say, we come with a problem...	克：当然不愿意。希：但是，比如说，我们带着问题来
54:04	K: If Mrs. Thatcher and the gentleman in Argentina looked at it, how tribalistic they are - they would stop it. But they don't, because the public doesn't want it. British - you follow? We are educated to be cruel to each other. I won't go into all that. So, a healthy mind is that, sir. A healthy mind is without any conflict. Then it is a holistic mind. And then there's a possibility of that which is sacred to be. Otherwise all this is so childish.	克：如果撒切尔夫人和阿根廷的那些要人看一看，他们是何等极端的部落主义者——他们会停下来的。但是他们不愿意，因为公众不想要这些。英国人——你明白吗？我们所受的教育就是要彼此残忍以待。我们不会深入讲那些了。所以，健康的心灵是那样的，先生。一颗健康的心灵没有任何冲突。因而它是一颗完整的心。然后神圣者就成为了可能。否则这一切都太幼稚了。