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OJ82Q1 - 第一次公开问答
美国，加州，欧亥
1982年5月4日



1:00 One has been handed lot of questions and I don’t think it is possible to answer all of them. So we have chosen some out of those. 已经有很多问题提交了上来， 而我认为全部回答这些问题是不可能的， 因此我们挑选了其中的一部分。
1:25 It isn't possible to have a discussion with such a large group, nor have a dialogue, which is a conversation between two people, and so we have resorted to questions written down and to be answered. I don’t know by whom, but I believe the questions have to be answered. I do not think that the speaker is going to answer the questions, but together we are going to investigate the question, its import, whether it can be answered superficially or go into it deeply. We are together going to find the answer. Not that the speaker is going to reply to your questions, but together we are going to approach the question and see the implications of the question and find for ourselves the answer – which is much more reasonable, rational, and worthwhile. If one expects someone else to answer the questions, then one is not taking the responsibility at all, you are depending then on someone else. Whereas if we could this morning together explore the question by carefully going into it, not analytically, but observing the quality, the nature, the structure of the question. If that is clear, that we are together going to investigate and find the answer for ourselves. 要和这么一大群人作讨论是不可能的， 也不可能展开对话 ——两个人之间才有可能展开对话， 因此我们采取了将问题写下来然后回答的办法。 我不知道这些问题是谁提出的，但我认为有必要作出回答。 我并不认为应由讲话者来回答这些问题， 而是我们要一起去探究问题，探究其含义， 无论我们只是蜻蜓点水地回答，还是很深入地去探究问题， 我们都是一起在寻找答案， ——并不是讲话者在回答你们的问题， 而是我们一起在探究问题， 看清问题的含义， 并由我们自己来找出答案 ——这更合理，更具理性，也更值得做。 如果你希望由别人来给出答案， 那么你就根本没有肩负起责任， 接着你就会去依赖他人。 然而，今天早上如果我们能够一起去探究问题 ——很细致地深入探究问题，并非去分析问题， 而是观察问题的特性、本质，及其结构—— 如果这点清楚了，那么我们就一起来探究 并亲自找出答案。
4:17 I haven’t seen the – oh, I mustn’t say that, must I. 我并没有看过（这些问题）——哦，我其实不该这么说，对吧？
4:26 First Question: 'Our children are aware, through television, etc., of the threatening world they live in, the violence of crime, wars, nuclear danger. How do we help them to face these?' 第一个问题：我们的孩子通过电视和其他途径了解到了 他们所处世界的危险性： 犯罪暴力，战争，以及核危机。 我们要如何帮助他们去面对这些问题呢？
4:43 'Our children are aware through television and other means of the threatening world they live in, the violence of crime, wars, nuclear danger. How do we help them to face these problems?' 我们的孩子通过电视和其他途径了解到了 他们所处世界的危险性： 犯罪暴力，战争，以及核危机。 我们要如何帮助他们去面对这些问题呢？
5:11 How do we face the problem, rather than the children? Because after all the parents are also the educators, not merely the teachers of a school. The parents, though they have brought them into the world, they are also really, deeply, the responsible people to teach them. So, what is our responsibility? How do we meet these problems ourselves – the wars, the violence, the terrible things that are shown on television, the terrorism, and all the rest of it – how do we meet it, as parents, as human beings? I wish we could have a conversation about it, a dialogue, but that’s not possible. 是我们要怎么面对这些问题——而不是孩子。 因为毕竟父母也是教育者， 而不仅仅是学校里的老师们， 父母——尽管是他们把孩子们带到世上来的—— 他们也是真正深负教子责任的人。 因此，我们的责任是什么？ 我们自己要如何面对这些问题——战争、暴力、 电视上播出的那些骇人的事 以及恐怖主义，等等这些呢？ 身为父母，身为人类的我们要如何面对这些问题？ 我希望我们能对此展开一场讨论，一次对话， 但这是不可能的。
6:41 So how do I, or you, meet this terrible world? Do we accept things as they are, adjust ourselves to things as they are, modifying our lives but accepting things, status quo, as they are? Do we accept it? Or, if we do not accept them, how do we face the problem? How do I or you personally face the issue? Please, I am asking this question; don’t just sit back and let me answer it. Let’s find out together how do we face these problems. 那么我，或者你要如何面对这个可怕的世界呢？ 我们是不是接受了世事的现状， 让自己去适应那些现实 ——改良我们的生活，同时又容忍这些事、这些现状呢？ 我们是不是接受了这些？ 或者，如果我们不接受这些，那我们又要如何面对这个问题？ 就个人来说，我或者你要如何面对这个问题呢？ 恳请你，我正在问这个问题， 不要只是闲坐着让我来回答它。 让我们一起来搞清楚我们要如何面对这个问题——这些问题。
7:55 What is our action? What shall we do? If I am a parent and I have several children, and I see the things that are going on in the world – the tribal wars, the terrorism, kidnapping, all the rest of it – as a parent how shall I educate him to face this life? First of all, how do I as a parent face these problems? Is my response casual? Is my response traditional? My response that I cannot do anything about it, it’s too vast, too complicated, and so I leave it to others – the politicians, the economists, the social reformers, and so on. Or, do I take the total responsibility of what is happening in the world? 我们要如何行动？我们要怎么做？ 如果我是一个有着几个孩子的父母， 我看到了这个世界上正在发生的事： 部落战争、恐怖主义、绑架，等等这些， 身为父母，我要如何教导他去面对这样的生活呢？ 首先，身为父母的我要如何面对这些问题呢？ 我所给予的回应是不是漫不经心的？ 我的反应是不是在套用传统？ 我的回答——我对此无能为力， 这个问题太巨大，太复杂， 因此我要留给别人来回答—— 政客们、经济学家们或者社会改革家们等等。 还是，我会对这个世界所发生的事情负起全责？
9:39 If I am violent, dishonest, have no sense of a world global outlook, parochial attachments, is that possible? That is, to have a global relationship, psychologically; is that possible? Or, I live in a particular country and I have to obey its laws, follow its rules and so on, so I am committed to the limited outlook on life. Is it possible for me as a parent, and so a teacher, is it possible for me to break away from all this, break away from the usual mediocre tradition – and I am afraid most of us are mediocre – and is it possible, can I undertake to educate my children to have a global attitude towards life? What do you say to it? Or shall I leave it all to the teachers, in a school, however advanced, and let them educate my children? Not undertake the responsibility of educating them at home, as well as in their holidays and so on. 如果我很暴力、不正直， 也没有全局的、放眼全球的视野 没有各种狭隘的依附， 这可能吗？ 也就是说，在心理上，拥有一种全球化的人类关系 ——这可能吗？ 还是，活在一个特定的国家里我就必须 遵纪守法等等， 我因此也就认准了这种非常有限的生活观。 对身为父母因而也是老师的我来说， 有没有可能从所有这些当中解脱出来， 从平庸惯常的传统中解脱出来呢？ 恐怕我们大多数人都是平庸之辈。 那么，有没有可能，我能不能担负起责任——教育孩子 拥有一种放眼全球的生活观的责任呢？ 对此你会怎么说？ 还是我要把这个问题都留给老师， 留给学校去处理——不管是多么高级的学校， 就让他们来教导我的孩子？ 这样我自己就不用承担在家里、 在假期等等教育他们的责任了。
12:20 By nature, by inheritance we are a violent people, aggressive, competitive, arrogant. We have come to that through various biological demands and also psychological, perhaps necessities, which have become habitual. And as we are violent people we create a violent society, and can I educate my children not to be violent? Come on, answer. Perhaps I can talk to them about it, if I have time. Probably we have not time; we are worried of our own problems and get home rather tired after a long day and want to brush off the children, but if I have taken the responsibility to teach them, to help them, to understand this cruel world, I may talk to them, I may point it out to them. But the televisions, the children friends, are all encouraging violence. So I have to… at home I tell them one thing and when they go outside – being gregarious, wanting to follow the tradition, not to be abnormal, different from others – they become like the rest of them: mediocre, cruel, thoughtless. You know what is happening. So, what shall I do? Please, it’s your problem. What shall I, as a parent, do? 从本性上、从遗传上来讲，我们都很暴力： 具有侵略性、争强好胜、傲慢自大。 我们变成了那副样子——通过生理上的各种需求， 也许还有心理上的迫切需要， 这些都变成了习惯。 因为我们都很暴力，所以我们建立了一个暴力的社会 ——那么我能把自己的孩子教导成不暴力的吗？ 拜托，请回答。 如果我有空，我或许会和他们谈谈这些。 又或许我们都没有空，我们都操心着各自的问题， 在漫长的一天之后，回到家后已经相当疲惫， 只想撇开这些孩子。 但是，如果我担负起了教育他们的责任， 去帮助他们了解这个残酷的世界， 我就会和他们谈话，我就会给他们指出来。 但是电视以及孩子的朋友们都在鼓励暴力， 因此，我不得不 在家里，我告诉他们这些，而当他们在外时，却 希望合群，想要遵循传统， 而不是做一个有别于其他人的异类， 他们会变得和其他人一样：平庸、冷酷、不顾及他人 ——你了解在发生什么——那么，我要怎么办？ 恳请你，这是你的问题。 身为父母，我该怎么办？
15:05 Can I give up my pleasures? I am in the habit of smoking – suppose, I am not – suppose I am in the habit of smoking, drinking, taking drugs, mildly, marijuana or whatever it is, and I tell my children not to do it, they won’t believe me. They will say, you are a hypocrite. Even though they may not tell me that. So will I give up all those things for my children? Go into it, sir, it’s your problem. Will I give up my drink, my irritations, my anger, my drugs and alcohol for the sake of my children? I have heard several parents in Europe and elsewhere say, why should I give up my pleasures for my blasted children? Do you understand the attitude? ‘They have to face the world, and if we make them soft they will be destroyed. So we must make them hard’ – you know all the rest of it. So what shall I do? 我能舍弃自己的享乐吗？ 我有抽烟的习惯——假设我有，不是真有—— 假设我有抽烟、酗酒、 嗑药——说轻点儿，吸食大麻——或者无论什么习惯， 而我却对自己的孩子说不要那么做。他们是不会相信我的， 他们会说，“你是个伪君子” ——尽管他们可能不会当面对我这么说。 因此，我会为了孩子们舍弃这些习惯吗？ 去探究一下，先生，这是你的问题。 为了孩子着想，我会不会戒酒，停止自己的烦恼以及愤怒， 不再嗑药和酗酒呢？ 我已经听过了来自欧洲和其他各地的父母们 说，“为什么我要为了该死的孩子放弃自己的享受呢？” 你了解这种心态吗？ “孩子们必须面对这个世界， 如果我们让他们变得软弱，他们就会遭到毁灭。 因此，我们必须让他们变得冷酷无情”——你了解这些的。 那么，我该怎么做？
17:04 Am I educating my children, as a parent at home, or am I educating myself as well as the children? You follow my question? I, as a parent, I feel I have to educate them, but I go on, carry on my own ways: dishonest, having no integrity, occupied with my own problems, with my own ambitions and so on. Can I, as a parent and a teacher of my children, educate myself as well as my three or four children? That means I have to break up the pattern in which I have been living. If I love my children I have to. Because perhaps the influence of the home is far more important than the influence of the school, where the parents are supposed to love their children, care for them, look after them, see to their behaviour, the language they use, cultivate their good taste, appreciation of beauty. That means I have to… I myself am educating all the time. Educating in the sense that, not live in the same old pattern, same old habits of past generation, and amusements and pleasure. Obviously I must give them up. But will the parents do this? Will you do it for your children? And will you help as a parent to bring about a new school? 在家里，我是要以父母的身份来教导孩子呢， 还是在教育孩子的同时也要教育自己？ 你跟上我的问题了吗？ 我，作为父母，觉得自己必须教育他们， 但我却还是继续依然故我的生活： 不正直，毫无诚信， 被自己的各种问题、各种野心所占据，等等。 那么，作为孩子的父母和老师，我能不能 在教育我的三、四个孩子的同时也以身作则地教育自己呢？ 这也就意味着，我必须打破我一贯的生活模式。 如果我爱自己的孩子，我就必须这么做。 因为，可能家庭对孩子的影响要远比 学校对孩子的影响重要得多， 在家里，父母理应爱自己的孩子， 关心他们、照顾他们、注意他们的行为、 他们所使用的语言，培养他们好的品位以及对美的欣赏。 这意味着，我必须一直进行自我教育。 教育意味着——不活在同样的旧模式里， 不活在与上一代同样的旧习惯中，以及各种消遣和享乐之中。 显然，我必须舍弃这些。 但是父母们愿意这么做吗？ 你会为了自己的孩子这么做吗？ 身为父母的你，会帮他们建立一所全新的学校吗？
20:06 This has been a problem with which the speaker has been associated for the last 60 years. There are several schools in India. There is one here, and in England. And this is the problem, not only the biological sexual problem of an adolescent, and also the society is so brutally strong, the outward environment. You may bring them up very, very carefully but the structure of society is so powerful. 在过去的60年之中，这一直都是一个 与讲话者息息相关的问题。 我们在印度建有几所学校， 这儿有一所，英国也有一所。而问题就在于 ——不仅仅是青春期的性生理问题， 还有，社会、外部环境是如此骇人听闻的强大。 你也许很小心翼翼地把他们带大了， 但是社会结构却是如此强大有力，
21:11 From this arises rather an interesting question. Society now demands engineers, scientists, businessmen, computer experts, architects, builders of roads – society demands that. So there lies the money, and all the rest of it. If the society demanded a totally different type of group of people – you are following? – that is, a group of people who are not concerned with nationalism, with violence, with drugs, alcohol, all those things, but are deeply integrated, have integrity – you follow? – will society demand such a people? Obviously not. Some years ago, speaking in Switzerland where we have been for the last 21 years, at the beginning the particular place where we were speaking, Saanen, didn’t want us at all in the place. Because the majority of the people who came there didn’t smoke, didn’t go to the butcher, didn’t drink, so the village people said, ‘Why do you come here if you don’t spend money?’ You follow the point of this? 由此就产生了一个相当有趣的问题。 当今社会需要工程师、科学家、商人、 电脑专员、建筑师、 筑路者、工程师——社会需要这些人。 因此，这些领域就有利可图，等等诸如此类的一切。 而如果社会需要一群截然不同的人 ——你跟上了吗—— 也就是一群不参与国家主义， 不涉及暴力、嗑药、酗酒，所有这些事的人， 而是正直完整、精诚团结的人——你明白吗—— 社会需要这样的人吗？很显然不需要。 几年前，我在瑞士演讲 ——在过去的21年中，我们一直在那儿演讲—— 刚开始，我们讲话的那个地方——萨能—— 那儿根本不欢迎我们去。 因为我们一行的大多数人都不吸烟、 不去肉铺、不喝酒， 因此村里的人就问： “要是你们不花钱的话，为什么要来这里？” 你明白其中的意思了吗？
23:54 As society does not demand a group of people who have this sense of integrity, the sense of wholeness in their life, a profound religious life – not the traditional religious life which has no meaning at all – as society does not demand such people, can we as a group be those people? You understand my question? It is a very interesting point. Then we have such a person, such a human being, has such strength, such vitality in himself, and such a group becomes essentially important. They are like a light in darkness. So are there such parents who will be that? Or we are all so casual, sloppy, indifferent. Please, sirs, this is a very, very serious question because you are bringing about a new generation of people. If that generation is merely the continuation of what you are, with all the violence and all the stupidities of war, society will then become more and more immoral, more and more destructive. So, as a group of parents, is it possible that we demand of ourselves the highest excellence in behaviour, in conduct? Right? Shall we educate our children in a totally different way? 既然社会不需要 一群在生活中具有正直感、 完整感的人——这是一种深刻的宗教生活， 而不是传统意义上的宗教生活，那种生活毫无意义可言—— 既然社会不需要这样的人， 而我们作为一个群体，能不能成为那样的人呢？——你明白我的问题吗？ 这一点很有趣。 那我们就拥有了这样的人，而这样的人类 内心拥有强大的力量、强大的活力， 这样的一群人就会变得无比重要， 他们就如黑暗中的一盏明灯。 那么，有没有愿意成为那群人的父母呢？ 还是说，我们都是如此地漫不经心、敷衍了事和漠不关心。 先生们，恳请你们，这是个非常，非常严肃的问题， 因为正是你们在培养新一代的人， 如果这一代人仅仅只是延续了你们的现状， 包括所有的暴力以及所有愚不可及的战争， 那么，社会将会变得越来越不道德，越来越具破坏性。 因此，身为一群父母， 我们有没有可能要求自己 在品行举止上达到最高程度的优秀呢？ 对吗？ 我们能不能以一种截然不同的方式来教育我们的孩子？
27:06 Second Question: 'Great teachers have been on earth: Buddha, Jesus. Do you think there will be less conflict, more understanding when you depart, or is the world moving in an unalterable direction?' 第二个问题：伟大的导师们曾来过这个世界：佛祖，耶稣。 你觉得当你离开这个世界时， 世界会少些冲突，多些谅解吗？ 还是，世界会朝着无可挽回的方向行进呢？
27:28 'Great teachers have been on earth: the Buddha, Jesus. Do you think there will be less conflict, more understanding when you also depart, or is the world moving in an unalterable direction?' 伟大的导师们曾来过这世界：佛祖，耶稣， 你觉得当你离开这个世界时， 世界会少些冲突，多些谅解吗？ 还是，世界会朝着无可挽回的方向行进呢？
28:01 Have we ever noticed that the followers destroy the leader, and the leader or the teacher destroys the followers? Have you ever considered that? The Buddha, two thousand five hundred years ago, before Christianity came into being, talked about love, conduct, and so on, not to worship anything. And his followers made images of him, followed him, and so destroyed him. Right? There are various scriptures written down from memory, but the disciples always either exaggerate, distort or extol, and lose the real depth of his teaching. And the Christian world – I hope I am not treading on anybody’s toe, feet – the Christian world, I am sure, have also made up that person into something incredible. And probably when the speaker kicks the bucket, dies, there will be the same phenomena going on. 我们可有注意到——正是追随者们摧毁了领袖， 而且也正是领袖或者导师摧毁了追随者们？ 你对此可曾深思过？ 佛陀——在2500多年前， 在基督教产生前——就在谈论爱、 行为，等等，也谈到了不要崇拜任何事物。 而他的追随者们却为他塑像，追随他， 因而摧毁了他。对吗？ 我们有各种 根据别人的回忆记录下来的经文， 但门徒们却总是要么夸大其词，将之扭曲，要么就大肆颂扬这些经文， 从而丧失了他教诲真正的深度。 而基督教 ——我希望没有冒犯到任何人—— 基督教——我确信—— 也已经将那个人虚构成了一个令人难以置信的存在。 而也许当讲话者翘辫子、死掉了以后， 也会有同样的现象发生。
30:31 All this points to something extraordinary. Why do human beings, all over the world, have created symbols and worship the symbols? The symbols have become far more important than the truth of those people who have said things which are utterly true. Why do we want interpreters? The mediators between that truth and yourself. You understand my question? The priest – the priests have existed from the ancient of times. The Sumerians, 7,000 or 8,000 years ago, had these priests, so did the Egyptians, the ancient Egyptians, and there are these modern priests: the evangelists, the local priests, the priests at Rome. They will all tell you or interpret or come between you and that. Why do we allow all this? You understand my question? Why can’t we as human beings look to anybody? Because the whole history of mankind, his suffering, his agony, his desperate uncertainty, loneliness, is all in the book. Not in sacred books and holy books and all that; in the book which we are. We are the history of mankind. And if we can read that book ourselves you need nobody outside to help. Our difficulty is we want others to read it and tell us what we are, what we should do. And the difficulty is to read the book of ourselves. And to read that book we need careful observation of every movement of thought, feeling, reactions. And we don’t do it because we want something, an easy way to everything. 所有这些都指向了一件不可思议的事： 为什么全世界的人， 制造出了各种符号然后去膜拜这些符号呢？ 这些符号已经变得比那些人道出的真相重要多了 ——这些人已经说出了一些绝对真实的东西。 我们为什么需要各种诠释者？ ——在真相和你自己之间的中介。 你明白我的问题吗？ 牧师——牧师们自远古时代就已经存在了。 七八千年前的苏美尔人，就有了这些牧师， 古代的埃及人也有牧师， 还有这些现代的牧师们： 传教士、当地的牧师们、罗马的牧师们。 他们都会告诉你，或者介入进来，充当你和那个东西之间的诠释者。 我们为什么要对这一切听之任之呢？你明白我的问题吗？ 作为人类的我们，为什么要指望别人呢？ 因为人类的整个历史——我们的苦难、痛苦、 绝望、不确定性以及孤独——都在这本书里。 不在那些经书和圣书等等之中， 而是就在我们自己这本书里。 我们就是人类的历史。 而如果我们自己能读懂这本书，我们就不需要求助于他人。 我们的困难就在于我们想要别人来替我们读，然后告诉我们 我们真实的样子，以及我们应该怎么办。 而难点就在于要去读懂我们自己这本书。 要读懂这本书，就需要我们去细心地观察， 观察思想、感受和反应的每个活动， 而我们不会这么做，因为我们只想要容易得到的东西。
34:23 So, thought then invents all the rituals, the marvellous architecture of ancient cathedrals, temples and mosques, and the things that are in the temples, in the mosques, in the cathedrals and churches are put there by thought, invented by thought. And thought is not sacred – which we will go into when we talk about it. And as long as we depend on others, whether it be Buddha, and so on, we shall always live in conflict, our life will become hypocritical. Is this so or not? Or, the speaker is merely fantasy. The accuracy of investigation demands that you have flexible scepticism so that the outside agency, whether it’s the saviour, the Buddha, or in India, Krishna and so on... – as long as that exists there’ll be division among people, and that division will inevitably bring about conflict. Truth is not Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or Islam, it is truth, and it doesn’t belong to anybody. Like love doesn’t belong to you or to me, it is love, compassion. And our minds are so conditioned, two thousand years of Christianity, of propaganda, incessant, very clever thought-out propaganda; and the same thing in the Asiatic world. 于是，思想就发明出了各种宗教仪式、 各种美妙的建筑：古老的大教堂，以及各种寺庙、清真寺， 而寺庙、 清真寺、大教堂以及教堂里的各种东西 也都是由思想发明出来，并摆放在那儿的。 而思想并不神圣 ——在我们谈到思想时，我们还会对此作深入探究。 而只要我们还依赖他人——无论是佛陀还是别人—— 我们就会一直活在冲突之中，我们的生活就会变得很虚伪。 是不是这样？还是说这仅仅是讲话者的幻想？ 探究的准确性需要你有灵活的怀疑态度， 外部的中介——无论是救世主、佛陀 还是在印度的克利须那神等等—— 只要这个中介存在，人们之间就会有分裂， 而这种分裂无可避免地会引起冲突。 真理不属于基督教、印度教、佛教或者伊斯兰教， 真理就是真理，它不属于任何人。 就像爱不属于你也不属于我，它只是爱、慈悲。 而我们的心灵是如此深受局限——已有2500年， 已有2000年的基督教，不断地传道 ——非常聪明、周密的传道—— 并且同样的事也发生在亚洲地区。
37:21 So, is it possible to be totally, completely free from all dependence? To have one’s own deep abiding unshakeable integrity, which involves no fear, and so on. Otherwise we create gods, saviours. 因此，我们有没有可能——全然地、彻底地从所有依赖中解脱出来？ 去拥有属于自己的那种深入持久的、无法动摇的完整度 ——那里面没有恐惧，等等这些事物。 否则，我们就会制造各种神明和救世主。
38:06 Third Question: 'My behaviour indicates that I am afraid. Yet the actual perception of fear is elusive. How do I reach and deal with this deep-seated but unconscious emotion?' 第三个问题：我的行为举止说明了我很害怕， 然而对恐惧的真实觉察却很难捕捉。 我要如何触及并处理这种无意识的、根深蒂固的感觉呢？
38:22 'My behaviour indicates that I am afraid. Yet the actual perception of fear is elusive. How do I reach and deal with this deep-seated but unconscious emotion?' 我的行为举止说明了我很害怕， 然而对恐惧的真实觉察却很难捕捉。 我要如何触及并处理这种无意识的、根深蒂固的感觉呢？
38:44 Do you want to go into this now? I was going to deal with it on Saturday. It doesn’t matter, we will deal both days. 你想现在就对此作探究吗？ 我本来打算周六再探讨这个问题的， 没关系，现在和周六我们都来对此探讨一下。
39:07 If one has observed, this problem of fear has existed from time immemorial. Right? It has existed with man. And man has lived with it, both consciously or hidden deep down, its roots very, very deep. And either we have escaped from it through logic, through analysis, through any form of entertainment that helps us to avoid coming directly into contact with it and holding it, or we have suppressed it. Right? We do this. Or we neglect it. We say, ‘What, we have lived with fear for million years, so what does it matter now?’ And one knows the consequences of fear: physical shrinkage, a tendency to be hypocritical, resistance, an avoidance of the fact that one is really afraid. So if one really, profoundly wants to be free from that reaction called fear, one has to go to the very root of it. There is biological fears: the body, the organism which must protect itself, and the fear of disease, old age, death, and the fears of past memories. So fear is again a common ground upon which all human beings stand. So, either we deal with it superficially or enquire into it very, very deeply. 如果你曾观察过， 你会发现恐惧的问题自古以来就一直存在。对吗？ 它一直都伴随着人类， 人类一直都活在恐惧之中 ——有意识的或者内心深藏的恐惧，它根植得很深，很深。 因此，我们要么通过逻辑、分析， 通过各种形式的娱乐 来帮助自己去避免和它直接接触， 以及避免和它共处， 要么我们就索性压抑它。 对吗？我们就是这么做的。要么就忽略它。 我们说，我们已经和恐惧生活了数百万年， 所以那又有什么关系呢？ 我们都知道恐惧所导致的后果： 身体蜷缩， 变得虚伪、抵触， 回避“自己真的很害怕”这个事实。 因此，如果我们真正发自肺腑地 想要从那种叫做恐惧的反应中解脱出来， 那么我们就必须深入恐惧的根源。 我们有生理上的恐惧： 身体上的——这个必须要自我保护的有机体， 还有对疾病、老去、死亡的恐惧， 以及对痛苦往事的恐惧。 因此，恐惧也是全人类共同的立足点。 所以，我们要么浅尝辄止， 要么就非常、非常深入地探究它。
42:48 What is the root of fear? One knows various forms of fear: death, old age, fear of tomorrow, fear of uncertainty, fear of insecurity, fear of not being loved, or love and not receiving that love, fear of loneliness, fear of loss, fear of not having anybody to depend on, and so on – there are various forms of fear – the fear of the dark, the fear of light. Do we deal with the outward forms of fear? That is, I am afraid of my wife, or I am afraid of a bully; a bully, bullying all the time, you lie, you do all kinds of things, and there is the fear of that constant pressure of an aggressive, slightly demented person. So do we want to deal with fear superficially, which is intellectually, verbally, or do we want to go into it very, very deeply? Please, this is a serious question which you must answer for yourself. If you want to go into it superficially, that is endless. It is like a tree – the moment you cut down one branch or one twig of it there is another one rising. It’s perpetual flowering of fear. Or, you go into it observing its very nature, structure, how it comes into being. When we want to deal with it deeply, go to the very root of it, what is the root of fear? 恐惧的根源是什么？ 我们都知道各色各样的恐惧： 对死亡、年迈、对明天的恐惧，对不确定性的恐惧， 对不安全的恐惧，对不被爱的恐惧， 或者被爱却无法感受到爱的恐惧，对孤独的恐惧、 失去的恐惧，孤苦无依的恐惧等等。 有许许多多的恐惧： 对黑暗的恐惧、对光明的恐惧。 我们能探究各种外部的恐惧吗？ 也就是，我怕我的妻子， 或者我怕横行霸道的人 ——横行霸道的人，一直欺侮人——你撒谎，你做各种事情， 但内心却一直存在着恐惧—— 害怕有侵略性的、轻度癫狂的人不断施加的压力。 因此，我们是要敷衍了事地探究一下恐惧呢 ——也就是从口头上、道理上探究一下—— 还是我们想要非常、非常深入地探究它呢？ 恳请你，这是个很严肃的问题，你们必须自己找出它的答案。 如果你只想浅尝辄止，那么它就会没完没了。 这就像一棵树， 你一修减掉它的一根树杈或是一根小枝， 就会有新的小枝长出来——它会无休止地生发恐惧。 或者，你去深入探究它——观察它的本质、结构， 以及它是如何产生的。 当我们想要深入探究它——深入恐惧的根源， 那么，恐惧的根源是什么呢？
46:15 Please, I am not telling you, the speaker is not pointing out. We are together investigating into a tremendous complicated problem which has crippled humanity. And out of fear we have done all kinds of things; invented all the gods on earth. If there is absolutely no psychological fear then you are beyond all gods. 恳请你，我不是在告诉你，讲话者并不是在作解释， 我们是在一起对一个极其复杂的问题作探究， 它摧残了人性， 出于恐惧我们有了各种各样的所作所为， 发明出了世界上的各种神明。 如果完全没有任何心理上的恐惧， 那么，你就能超脱于各种神明。
47:02 So what is basically the root of fear? Is it time and thought? Please, we are investigating, I am not telling you, I am questioning. Is it time, the future or the past? And is it also thought, thinking about the future, thinking about the past, thinking what might happen, or what has happened. The future is time. The past is time. The past, modifying itself in the present, moves towards tomorrow, the future. The remembrance of an incident which has caused fear, and the future of that incident awakening the new fear. You are following all this? Am I talking to myself or we are meeting each other? So there is horizontal fear and vertical fear. Right? 那么，从根本上来说，恐惧的根源是什么？ 根源是时间和思想吗？ 恳请你，我们正在探究，我不是在告诉你，我是在提问。 根源是时间——未来或者过去吗？ 是不是也源于思想——思虑着未来， 思考着过去，思量着可能会发生或者已经发生的事。 未来就是时间，过去就是时间， 过去，在当下修正了自己， 朝着明天、未来前进。 心里记着一件曾经引发恐惧的事， 而这件事在未来可能再次发生，又会唤起新的恐惧。 这些你都跟上了吗？ 我是在自言自语，还是我们正在达成共识呢？ 因此，存在着横向的恐惧和纵向的恐惧。 对吗？
49:21 So we are asking, is it time? The past, the present and the future. One is afraid of the present: the instability, the threat of war, the bomb that some country, another great tribal country might put it on this – and so on. So one is afraid of the past, the present and the future. This is a movement – right? – it is not something that is static, it is a movement. And so a movement means time. From here to the village requires time to travel, to go to the village. From one point to another point means time. So, we are asking if time is one of the factors of fear. Logically it seems so. Rationally, sanely. And is thought also the root of fear? I think tomorrow might bring me unemployment, I will be unemployed tomorrow. The thinking about it while I am employed, thinking about the tomorrow is also the beginning of fear. Right? You are following? Thinking about the past, the incidents, the psychological accidents which has brought about certain forms of fear, thinking about the past, thinking about the future, thinking about the actual moment of life in which there is such tremendous uncertainty. Thought breeds fear. Right? You are following all this? 因此我们问，恐惧的根源是时间吗？ ——过去，现在和未来。 我们都害怕现在： 动荡、战争危机、 炸弹 ——某个国家、另一个部落大国可能会在这里投放，等等这些。 因此，我们都害怕过去、现在和未来。 这是种运动——对吗？—— 它并不是静止的东西，它是运动的。 因此运动就意味着时间。 从这儿到那个村子需要时间才能到达， 从这个点到另外一个点意味着时间。 因此，我们问：是不是时间就是恐惧的因素之一。 从逻辑上、理性上、理智上来讲，似乎就是如此。 那么，思想是不是也是恐惧的根源呢？ 我认为明天自己可能会失业， 明天我会被解雇， 在我有工作时我就在想着失业， ——思虑明天的事也就是恐惧的开始。 对吗？你跟上了吗？ 思考过去 ——各种事件、心理上的不幸遭遇—— 这就引起了某种形式的恐惧， 思考过去、思考未来、 思考生活的这一刻， 其中有着这么多的不确定性， ——是思想引发了恐惧。对吗？你跟上了吗？
52:10 So time and thought, are they the major factors of fear? And if they are, and as in reality they are, what is one to do? You understand my problem? Are we meeting each other? You have explained this to me, that time and thought is the root of fear. You have gone into it, you have explained it. Not in great detail but I’ve captured the meaning of what you have said. Now, then you ask me, is it an idea that you have accepted, the words that you have accepted, or listening what you have said to me, from that listening I have made an abstraction of it into an idea, and I’m struggling with the idea. Then I ask, how am I to put that idea into action? You see the difference? Vous avez compris? You have understood what I am saying? Is this clear? No. 因此，时间和思想，是不是它们就是恐惧的主因呢？ 如果是——事实上它们就是——那么你要怎么做呢？ 你了解我的问题吗？我们达成共识了吗？ 你已经给我解释过了——时间和思想就是恐惧的根源。 你已经探究过它，解释过它 ——不是很细致，但是我领会到了你所说的意思。 现在，你接着问：这是不是一种你早已接受了的观念， 一些你早已接受了的话，或者，是不是倾听了你对我所说的这些， 从这份倾听之中，我们把这些概括成了一个观念， 然后跟这个观念较劲呢？ 接着我问，我要如何将这个观念付诸行动？ 你看到了差别吗？你明白了吗？ 你理解了我所说的吗？ 清楚了吗？不清楚。
53:51 We have the habit of making abstractions of a fact. Those abstractions become ideals, ideas, concepts, conclusions – all verbal. And then I ask myself, how am I to carry out these ideals, these ideas, these concepts, that time and thought are the root of fear. You’ve understood? I have made an abstraction of what you have told me: time and thought are the root of fear. And I am pursuing the idea, how am I to carry out in life. The speaker says please don’t do that. Don’t make an abstraction of what you have heard, that time and thought are the root of fear. Don’t translate into an idea but find out the truth of it, the actuality of it. That is, I see that I really am afraid of the past, which is so. Also I am afraid of the present, because the things are so incredibly destructive round me. And also I am afraid of tomorrow, the future – the atom bomb, the nuclear bomb, the mugging, the mad terrorists and the politicians with their game, that’s the present, so also the future. So, I see the fact, not the idea, that time and thought are the root of fear. Next Saturday I’ll go into it much more, in a different way, but this is the root of fear. Now what shall I do? I realise, I see the fact. I see the truth of what you have told me. Not romantic, idealistic, all that, that has no meaning. I see the truth, the actual truth of what you have told me. 我们都有将事实抽象化的习惯， 这些概念变成了各种理想、观念、理念和结论 ——都是字面上的。 接着我问自己， 我要如何贯彻这些理想、观念以及理念： 时间和思想就是恐惧的根源。 你明白了吗？ 我将你说的话抽象成了一个概念： 时间和思想就是恐惧的根源， 接着我就追随这个观念——我要如何在生活中贯彻这个观念。 讲话者说请不要那么做。 不要将你听到的话抽象成一个概念： 时间和思想就是恐惧的根源， 不要把这变成一种观念，而是要去发现它的真相， 其中的事实。 也就是，我看到我真的很害怕过去——就是如此。 我也很害怕现在， 因为我身边的一切都极具破坏性。 我也同样害怕明天、未来， 害怕原子弹、核武器、行凶抢劫、 疯狂的恐怖主义者以及耍把戏的政客们， ——害怕现在，也同样害怕未来。 因此，我看到了这个事实而非观念：时间和思想就是恐惧的根源。 下周六我会以另一种方式更深入地探究， 但时间和思想就是恐惧的根源， 那么我要怎么做？ 我意识到，我看到了事实，我看到了你跟我说过的真相 ——并不是充满幻想地、理想化地看到，诸如此类，那些都毫无意义。 我看到了真相，你跟我说过的千真万确的真相，
56:47 Then the difficulty arises, if you have gone that far, who is the observer who actually sees the fact? You understand all this, or is this too difficult? All right. Who is the observer who says, ‘Ah yes, I see the truth of it’? Is the observer different from what he sees? You understand my question? When I say, ‘Yes, I see the truth of what you have told me, I have already played a trick, which is: I see the truth of it. That means I am different from the truth. You are following? Right? Is this clear? Wait a minute, let me put it much more simply. When I am angry, is that anger different from me? Or at the moment of anger there is no difference. There is this tremendous reaction. A few seconds later I say, ‘I have been angry’, therefore I have divided myself as the ‘me’ who has been angry. Right? You see? 然后困难就来了——如果你已经深入到此了—— 谁又是那个真正看到了事实的观察者？ 你明白这些吗？还是这对你来说太难了？好吧。 这个说：“是的，我看到了真相”的观察者是谁？ 观察者有别于他的所观之物吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 当我说：“是的，我看到了你跟我说过的真相”， 我就已经玩了个把戏，也就是：我看到了真相。 这意味着，我是有别于真相的，你明白吗？ 对吗？这点清楚了吗？ 等一下，让我把它说得更简单点。 当我很愤怒时，这个愤怒有别于我吗？ 还是在愤怒的那刻，是没有区别的， 只有愤怒这种巨大的反应。 几秒后我说：“我刚才很愤怒”， 因此我把自己分离出来，把它作为那个愤怒过的“我”。 对吗？你明白了吗？
58:42 So, when you have told me the truth, the fact, that time and thought are the factors of fear, I listen to it very carefully and I say, ‘Yes, I see the truth of it’, and the perception of that truth is something out there, and me watching it. Follow this? Or, there is no observer but only the fact of it. You understand the difference? Are we meeting? I observe that tree. In that observation, words spring up: ‘That’s an oak tree’, and the very naming of that tree prevents me from actually looking at it. You have understood? If I go to a museum and see a picture, a painting by the old masters – I don’t like modern paintings, that doesn’t matter – and I go there and look. When I compare one master against another master I am not looking at the actual painting of a particular master. I am comparing, judging, I am never observing very closely without any sense of other painters, looking. 因此，当你跟我说了这个真相、这个事实时 ——时间和思想就是恐惧的因素—— 我听得很认真， 然后说：“是的，我看到了它的真相” ——那个真相就在那边， 而我在看着它。明白吗？ 还是说，不存在观察者，而只有事实本身。 你了解这个区别吗？我们彼此理解了吗？ 我观察那棵树， 在这份观察之中，文字冒了出来：“那是棵橡树”， 而正是对这棵树的命名， 妨碍了我真正去观察它。 你了解了吗？ 如果我去博物馆看到了一幅画，一件早期大师的画作 ——我不喜欢现代画，但这没有关系—— 然后我走过去看。 当我拿这个大师跟别的大师作比较时， 我其实并没有在观赏大师那幅真实的作品， 我只是在比较、评判，我从来没有很认真地观看 ——不心存其他画家地去观看。
1:00:48 So, when I observe, when I see the truth of what you have told me, there is no division between the observer and the observed. There is only the truth of it. Not, I see it. And that perception which is holistic frees the mind from fear completely. Have you got this? Don’t look, please, so puzzled. Look, sir. What time is it? 因此，当我观察时，当我看到你跟我说过的真相时， 就没有了观察者和所观之物之间的划分， 只有真相本身——而不是“我看到了它”。 这种整体的觉察就把头脑从恐惧中彻底解脱了出来。 你明白了吗？ 拜托，不要看上去这么迷惑。 看，先生。 现在几点？
1:01:41 Q: Twelve thirty. 问：12点半。
1:01:45 K: You are not tired? Can we go on with this? It’s very important to understand this. I am afraid – suppose I am afraid, psychologically – I then try to control it, I try to rationalise it, I try to escape from it, I go to somebody to help me to resolve it. So I am always acting on it. Right? Is that clear? That’s what we are all doing: acting upon it either to dissipate it or to control it or to run away from it or to suppress it. This is what we do, acting upon it. So there is always this conflict. Right? Is that clear? The struggle not to be afraid, which is a conflict. Now, can that conflict end? You understand? I am putting the question differently. Can that conflict between me and the fear, me controlling the fear, suppressing and so on, and thereby this division which inevitably brings conflict, can that conflict end? You get the point? That’s my question. I say, how can that conflict end? Why does this division between the ‘me’, the I who is trying to suppress, control, dominate fear, why is there this division? Is this division actual or is it merely semantic, verbal? Or, not being able to solve the problem, thought has divided itself as the ‘me’ and the fear. You understand? 克：你们不累吗？我们可以继续讲吗？ 了解这点很重要。 我很害怕——假设我心理上很害怕， 那么我就会设法控制它，我会试着将它合理化， 我会试着逃避它，我会去找人帮我解决它。 所以我永远在对付着它。对吗？这清楚了吗？ 这就是我们一直在做的： 不停地对付着它，要么去消除它，要么就去控制它， 或者逃避它，又或者压抑它。 这就是我们所做的，一直在对付它。 因此，总存在着这种冲突。 对吗？这点清楚了吗？ 努力去变得不害怕，这是种冲突。 那么，这种冲突能终止吗？你明白吗？ 我以不同的方式提出了这个问题： 我和恐惧之间的那种冲突， ——我控制恐惧，压抑恐惧等等， 因而这种划分不可避免地带来了冲突—— 这种冲突能不能终止？这点你明白了吗？ 这就是我的问题。 我问，这种冲突要如何终止？ 为什么我和恐惧之间会存在这种划分 ——这个我试图压制、控制、支配恐惧—— 为什么会有这种划分？ 这种划分是真实的吗？ 还是仅仅是语言上的、口头上的？ 或者，因为无法解决这个问题， 于是思想将自己划分成了“我”和恐惧。 你了解吗？
1:04:42 Am I talking to myself or can we go on? Sorry, you probably have never thought about all this. So, it is important to resolve this conflict, because we live in duality. ‘I am this, I should not be that… I should be that’. So there is always this duality which brings about conflict. Right? Now, I want to find out – no, I won’t use ‘I want to’ – can this conflict end? Is there – please listen to it – is there an opposite? I am afraid. The opposite is not to be afraid – right? – or have courage. Is there an opposite to fear? Or there is only the ending of fear, not the opposite of fear. I wonder if you see all this. 我只是在自言自语吗，还是我们可以继续？ 很抱歉，可能你从未想过这些。 因此，解决这种冲突很重要，因为我们都活在二元对立之中 ——我是这样的，我不应该那样，我应该是那样的。 因此，总存在着这种引起冲突的二元对立，对吗？ 现在，我想要找出——不，我不应该说“我想要”—— 而是这种冲突能不能结束？ 存在着——恳请你好好听——存在着对立面吗？ 我很害怕， 对立面就是不害怕——对吗？——或者有勇气。 存在恐惧的对立面吗？ 还是只存在恐惧的结束，而不是恐惧的对立面。 我不知道你是不是明白了这些。
1:06:08 So, is there an ending of fear? – the ending being no conflict. Right? If I end it through conflict, that means I’ll go on, it’ll be perpetual. You get this? So can this end? To end something, there must be no me who is trying to end it. Right? If I try to end it, I am in conflict with it. Right? But is there an observation of this reaction called fear without the past interfering with that observation? The past being the remembrances, the many fears I have had. So the past, can it abstain from looking at the fact without the memory of yesterdays? You haven’t understood? 因此，恐惧可以结束吗？ ——没有冲突地结束，对吗？ 如果我通过冲突结束恐惧，我就会继续恐惧，恐惧就是无休止的。 你明白了吗？因此，恐惧能结束吗？ 要结束某件事，就一定不能有这个试图要结束它的“我”。 对吗？ 如果我试图结束它，我就会与它起冲突。对吗？ 但是，是不是存在对“恐惧”这种反应的观察 而没有过去介入这种观察呢？ 过去就是记忆，我曾有过的很多恐惧。 因此，过去，它能不能不参与对事实的观察， 不带着昨天的各种记忆呢？ 你还没理解吗？
1:07:49 Look, sir: if I am married, I meet my wife every day. Every day – rather boring, every day. Listen carefully please, don’t laugh – every day. So I begin to know her; I know how she looks, what her gestures, all the rest of it, the words, so gradually I have built up a knowledge about her, and whenever I look at her all the knowledge comes out. Right? The knowledge is the past – right? – because I have built the knowledge day after day, day after day, day after day, accumulated it through various incidents and so on and so on. So whenever I see her, this knowledge, which is the past, looks at her. You are doing this, this is nothing new. Only we are putting into words. And so this knowledge is the remembrance of things past, meeting the present and so dividing. Right? Physically of course my wife is not like me – male and female. But psychologically I have divided myself. Do you understand? The remembrance of the accumulated memories, which is knowledge about my wife, has separated as the ‘me’ and her. Got this? The past has brought about this division. Now similarly, the past remembrances of fears, past remembrance of accidents of fear, the happenings of fear, is stored in the brain, and that brain is remembering the past, and so when the present reaction comes, you name it immediately as fear, and record it as fear. You follow this? Right? Is this clear? No, don’t tell me this is not clear. I can’t help it, sorry. I’ll try to put it ten, three or four different ways. 你瞧，先生：如果我已经结婚了，我每天都会遇到我妻子， 每天，相当枯燥，每天。 请认真听好，不要笑——每天。 因此，我开始熟悉她， 我熟悉她的样子，她的姿态， 她的话，等等这些， 渐渐地，我就累积起了对她的认识， 然后，无论何时我看着她，所有那些认识就会冒出来，对吗？ 知识就是过去——对吗？—— 因为我日复一日、 日复一日地累积知识， 通过各种事件，等等等等去累积。 因而，无论何时我看着她，是这些知识，也就是过去在看着她，对吗？ 你就是这么做的，这不是什么新鲜事 ——只不过我们把它说出来了而已。 因此这些知识就是对过往事情的记忆， 它在迎接当下，因此造成了分裂，对吗？ 当然，从生理上来说，我的妻子和我是不一样的——男女有别。 但是，从心理上来说，我分裂了自己。 你明白吗？ 回想起那些积累起来的记忆， 也就是对于我妻子的认识， 这就划分出了“我”和她。明白了吗？ 是过去引起了这种划分。 那么，同样地，对过往各种恐惧的记忆， 对过往各种恐惧的意外， 对各种恐惧事件的记忆，都储存在头脑里， 这个头脑记着过去的一切， 因此，当过去曾经有过的反应此刻又到来时， 你就会即刻把它命名为“恐惧”， 并把它记录为“恐惧”。你跟上了吗？ 对吗？这清楚了吗？ 不，不要告诉我还不清楚，我没办法了，真抱歉。 我们会尝试十种、三种或者四种不同的方式去表达它。
1:10:59 The past is time. The past is the observer. And so the observer says, yes, that is fear. I know it’s fear because I have had it so many times. So, moment it recognises it, it’s part of the past. Right? You see this fact. So can you look at that reaction… is there an observation of that reaction without the past? And when the past observes, you maintain the same movement. But when there is an observation without the past, you are looking at it afresh. Which is, when you observe fear from the past, you are using an energy which has already been employed year after year. Right? That’s a wastage of energy. Is there a new energy that meets this fear without the past? You understand the question now? Oh, for God’s sake! 过去就是时间， 过去就是观察者， 因此观察者说，“是的，这就是恐惧。 我知道它就是恐惧，因为我经历过很多次了。” 那么，在认出它的那一刻，它就是过去的一部分， 对吗？你看到了这个事实。 因此，你能不能看着这个反应 能不能观察这个反应而不让过去介入呢？ 当过去在观察时，你就是在继续同样的活动。 而当你观察却没有过去的介入时， 你就是在重新审视它。 也就是，当你从过去之中观察恐惧时， 你就是在耗损年复一年所使用的能量。 对吗？这是种能量的浪费。 有没有一种崭新的能量来面对这种恐惧而没有过去的介入呢？ 你现在明白我的问题了吗？哦，看在老天的份上！
1:12:42 You see, fear exists only – I realise, one sees the truth that time and thought are the root of fear. Fear exists when there is inattention, when there is no attention. Right? If I give complete attention to fear, it doesn't exist. But my brain has been conditioned not to give attention to this reaction. When you have sexual feelings you – right? Whereas fear, if you give total attention to it which is not to analyse it, not to rationalise it, not to escape from it, not to observe it from the past – attention means giving your whole energy to look. Right? Then when you do, fear is not. I can’t go on into this. We can go into it in different ways. On Saturday we’ll go into it very much more. Because the mind that has fear is a destructive, aggressive, neurotic mind, whereas a mind that is utterly free of fear psychologically is an extraordinary mind. 你看，恐惧只存在于 我意识到，我们看到了真相：时间和思想就是恐惧的根源。 恐惧只存在于漫不经心、不关注之时，对吗？ 如果我对恐惧投以全部的注意力，它就不存在了。 但是我的大脑却被制约着不要去关注那种反应。 在你有性欲时，你……对吗？ 然而——你叫它什么——恐惧， 如果你能对它倾注全部的注意力 ——不去分析它，不将它合理化， 不逃避它，也不根据过去观察它—— “关注”就意味着全神贯注地看， 对吗？那么当你这么做时，恐惧就不存在了。 我不能再往下讲了， 我可以，我们可以用不同的方式去探究它。 周六我们会对此做更多的探讨。 因为一颗怀有恐惧的心灵是破坏性的、 侵略性的、神经质的心， 而一颗在心理上完全摆脱了恐惧的心灵， 却是极其非凡的。
1:14:41 I’d had better stop. We meet again Thursday if you want to. 我最好停下了。 如果你愿意的话，我们周四再见。