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OJ82Q2 - 第二次公开问答
美国，加州，欧亥
1982年5月6日



1:12 We are very punctual. 我们都很准时。
1:34 In answering these questions we are both of us answering them, you and the speaker. So we are going into it together, and I think what is important is how we approach the problem. We talked a great deal about it the other day, in what manner we approach a problem. Whether it is a prejudice, bias, or from a fixed point of view, then the question will be directed or shaped by our motive. Can we approach the problem without a motive, without a direction, so that the problem itself reveals the whole content of itself and therefore it is already answered when the whole content of it is shown. 在回答这些问题时我们是在一起回答， ——你和讲话者一起。 因此，我们是在一起探究问题， 而我认为重要的是我们如何去探讨问题。 对此我们前几天已作过大量讨论 ——我们是以什么方式去探讨问题的， 那种方式是不是种成见、偏见，或者源于一个固执的观点， 那样的话，问题就会被我们的动机所牵引、所打造。 我们能不能探究问题而不持任何动机、没有任何取向， 这样，问题本身就揭露了它自身的全部内容， 因此，当它的全部内容被展露时，问题就已得到了解答。
2:59 First Question: 'Attention, for most of us, is difficult to maintain. Only a small part of one is willing, interested seriously. What can one do to nourish this attention?' 第一个问题：对于我们大多数人来说，“关注”这一行动的困难在于保持， 我内心仅有一小部分是乐意和真正对此感兴趣的。 我要怎么做才能培养这种关注呢？
3:18 'The act of attention for most of us is difficult to maintain. Only a small part of one is willing, interested seriously. What can one do to nourish this attention?' 对于我们大多数人来说，“关注”这一行动的困难在于保持， 我内心仅有一小部分是乐意和真正对此感兴趣的。 我要怎么做才能培养这种关注呢？
3:42 I wonder if we can go into the question together: what do we mean by attention? What is the difference between awareness, concentration, and attention? Could we go into that together? To be aware. As one is sitting under these beautiful trees on a lovely morning, nice and cool, not too hot, one is aware of that woodpecker pecking away, one is aware of the green lawn, the beautiful trees and sunlight, the spotted light, and if you are looking from that direction you are aware of those mountains. How does one look at them? How do you look at this marvellous sight? The beauty of this place. What does it mean to you? Do you observe it, aware of it without any choice, without any desire, urge, just to observe the extraordinary beauty of the land. And when you observe so easily, aware of all this – the light and the shade, the branches, the darkness of the trunks and the light on the leaf, and the extension of this marvellous earth – how does one react to all that? What is the feeling behind that awareness? Is it that beauty of that land and the hills and the shadows, is it related to our life, is it part of our life, or it is there to be observed – if you are a poet, you write about it, if you are an artist you paint it, or if you are good at conversation or description you put it into words. But this beauty, this awareness of this, what is its relationship to one’s life? That's part of awareness, the awareness of the external and the awareness of one’s own reactions to the external, and to be aware of the movement of this. As you are sitting there, are you aware of the colours of the shirts or robes or whatever the ladies wear, are you aware of all that? 我想知道我们能不能一起来探究这个问题： 我们所说的“关注”是什么意思？ “觉知”、“专注”和“关注” ——它们之间有什么区别？ 我们能不能一起来探究？ 去觉知—— 在一个美好的清晨你安坐于一片美丽的树下， 清凉舒适，不算太热， 你觉知到那只啄木鸟在啄食， 觉知到这片绿色的草坪， 以及美丽的树木、阳光，和那斑驳的树影， 要是你由这个方向往远处看去， 你也会觉察到那些山脉。 ——你是如何看它们的？ 你是如何观赏这一美妙绝伦的景象的？ 这片地方的美， 它对你意味着什么？ 你是不是观察它、觉知它而没有任何拣择、欲望以及冲动， 就只是看着这片土地非凡的美。 而当你如此从容自在地观赏、觉知这一切 ——光与影、 树木的枝干、它的深色躯干、叶片上的光芒 以及这片神奇土地的无限远处—— 你对这一切是如何反应的？ 这种觉知的背后是什么样的感觉？ 是不是这片土地的美、山丘的美以及这些阴影的美， ——它和我们的生活是不是息息相关的， 它是不是我们生活的一部分， 或者它在那里等着我们去观察？ 如果你是个诗人，你会抒写它， 如果你是个艺术家，你就会画它， 或者，如果你善于言谈或者善于描写，你就会诉诸文字。 而这种美，这种对美的觉知， 它和我们的生活有什么关系？ 这就是觉知的一部分 ——觉知外在 以及觉知自己内心对外在一切的反应， 去觉知这种运动。 当你坐在那儿，你是不是觉知到各种衬衣的颜色， 长袍的颜色，或者女士们穿戴的颜色——你觉知到所有这些了吗？
7:40 Or when we are aware is there always a choice? ‘I prefer this land to another land’, ‘I prefer this valley to other valleys’, so there is always memory and choice operating. And can one be aware without any choice at all, just to be aware of the extraordinary sense of the blue sky, the blue sky through the leaves, and just move with it all. And is one aware of one’s reactions, and when one is aware of one’s reactions is there a preference? One more desirable than the other, one is more urgent than the other, one is more continuous, habitual, and so on, and so from the outer move to the inner, – you understand what I am saying? – so that there is no division between the outer and the inner; it’s like a tide going out and coming in. That’s an awareness of this world outside of us and an awareness of the world deep inside of us, conscious as well as the unconscious. When one is really deeply conscious or aware, there is no remnant or hidden unconscious movement. I don’t know if you have gone through all this, if you have done it, not merely listened to a lot of words. So awareness is this movement of the outer and the inner and discover for oneself whether there is division between the outer and the inner. Of course there is a division between the tree and myself – I am not the tree, I hope. But in observing that thing which we call ‘tree’, to discover our reactions to it, how we react to beauty, to ugliness, to brutality, to violence, to competition and quietness and so on. 还是，当我们觉知时总存在着一种选择？ ——相对于那片土地，我更喜欢这片土地， 相对于其他的山谷，我更喜欢这个山谷—— 因此，总有记忆和选择在运作着。 我们能不能去觉知而没有任何的拣择， 就只是觉知那不可思议的蓝天， 那穿过树叶可见的蓝色天空，完全随它而动。 同时，我们有没有觉知到自己所有的反应， 当我们觉知到自己的反应时，是不是存在着某种偏好？ 这个比那个更令人喜爱， 这个要比那个更紧急， 这个更持久、更习惯些，等等， 于是由外在流向内心， ——你了解我说的吗？—— 这样，内心和外在之间就不存在划分， 正如潮汐般向外涌出，然后又退回来。 也就是，觉知我们外在的世界， 也觉知我们内心深处的世界 ——有意识的，也包括无意识的。 当我们真的很深刻地意识到或者觉知时， 就不存在残余的或者隐藏着的无意识的运动。 我不知道你是不是检验过了这些，是不是这么做了 ——而不仅仅是听取了一些言语而已。 因此，觉知就是这种内心和外在的运动， 并且由你自己去发现 是不是存在这种内心和外在的划分。 当然，存在着树和我自己之间的划分 ——我不是那棵树，我希望。 而在观察我们叫做“树”的这个东西时， 去发现我们对它的所有反应——我们对美、对丑是如何反应的， 对残酷、对暴力、对竞争以及对宁静等等是如何反应的。
10:59 And what do we mean by concentration? Because they are all related: awareness, concentration, and attention. What is concentration? To concentrate upon a page, upon a picture, to concentrate all one’s energy on a particular point. In that concentration is there not the effort to concentrate? Effort to concentrate, that is, you are trying to read a particular page and out of the window you see a marvellous light on a flower and your thought wanders off to that, but then you try to pull that thought back and concentrate on something. So there is this constant struggle to focus one’s energy, visual and so on, so there is a resistance, a struggle, and all the time trying to focus on a particular point. Are we meeting? This is right, isn’t it, when we talk about attention, about concentration. 而我们所说的“专注”是什么意思？ 因为它们之间都是息息相关的： 觉知、专注以及关注。 什么是“专注”？ 专注在某一页上，专注在一幅画上， ——集中精力在某一特定的点上。 在这种专注之中，我们难道不是在费力地去专注吗？ 然而……费力去专注， 也就是，你很努力地看着某一页， 而透过窗子，你看到了花朵上美妙的光线， 于是，你的思绪便游离开了， 但是接着你又很努力地把它拉回来 去专注在书页上。 因此，存在着这种不断的挣扎——要去集中精神、视线等等， 所以，总存在一种对抗、一种挣扎， 一直都在努力集中精神于某个特定点上。 我们达成共识了吗？确实如此，不是吗？ ——在我们谈到关注，谈到专注这些问题时。
13:02 The questioner asks, attention happens occasionally and how is one to nourish that attention so that it is continuous, not haphazard? So we are asking: what is attention, to attend? Are you interested in the question? To attend. To attend to that woodpecker. Did you listen to that woodpecker? There it is! 提问者问，关注偶尔会发生， 我们要如何培养关注 ——这样的话关注就可以持续，而不是偶然发生的？ 因此，我们问：什么是“关注”——去注意？ 你对这个问题感兴趣吗？ 去关注。关注那只啄木鸟， 你听到那只啄木鸟了吗？它就在那儿！
14:03 In concentration there is always the one who tries to concentrate, and in that concentration there is an effort and control. So there is a controller and a controlled in concentration. I hope you see this for yourself. There is the controller who is trying to focus his thought on a particular subject, but thought is all the time moving, wandering around, and so he tries to control it and in that control there is a form of resistance. There is a division between the controller and the controlled. And so there is an effort, a sense of division. Where there is division there must be conflict between the controller and the controlled. That is generally what we call concentration. Now is there in attention this division? You follow? The controller trying to attend and therefore there is a division between the thought that says, 'I must attend, I must learn how to sustain attention or nourish it.' I hope you are following all this. 专注之中总是存在着要努力专注的人， 在这种专注之中存在着努力和控制。 因此，专注之中总有一个控制者和一个被控制者。 我希望你自己看到了这点。 存在着控制者 ——努力集中思想到某一特定的事物上， 而念头却一直都在变动，游离， 因此，他就试图控制念头， 在这份控制之中就存在着一种对抗， 存在着控制者和被控制者之间的划分。 因而，总存在着一份努力，一种划分。 只要存在控制者和被控制者之间的划分， 就必定存在冲突 ——这就是我们通常所指的“专注”。 那么，关注中有没有这种划分呢？——你跟上了吗？—— 控制者努力去留意， 因此就存在着一种分裂——思想说：“我 必须关注，我必须学习如何保持或者培养关注”。 我希望你跟上这些了。
16:09 So is there in attention a centre from which you attend, or when you listen to that woodpecker, you are listening. So is there in attention an entity who is attending or there is only attention? Which means attending with your listening, perception, seeing and giving all your energy to attend to something. Are you listening attentively now? Listening to the speaker, what he is saying about attention. Are you actually listening? And when you really listen, there is no centre as the ‘me’ who is listening. You are following this? Is this right? Whereas there is always a centre in concentration. We are saying attention has no centre and therefore extensive. And it cannot be nourished – you attend, if you are listening, if there is an intensity – it is attending. Is this fairly clear? May we go? 因此，关注之中有没有一个中心——经由这个中心你去看—— 还是，当你倾听那啄木鸟时，你就只是倾听。 那么，关注中有没有一个存在体在留意， 还是，只有关注而已？ ——这意味着你全神贯注地倾听、感知、看， 全神贯注地去观察某物。 你现在是在全神贯注地倾听吗？ ——倾听讲话者，倾听他谈论“关注”。 你是真正地在倾听吗？ 当你真正地倾听时， 就不存在“我”这个中心在倾听。 你跟上了吗？对吗？ 然而，“专注”之中却总存在着一个中心。 我们说“关注”之中没有中心，因此关注是广阔的， 并且它无法被培养。 如果你在倾听，如果你有热情，那么你就在关注，你不能 这就是关注。 这是不是相当清楚了？我们可以继续吗？
18:20 So, really, awareness without choice, a choiceless awareness, and concentration, and this sense of extensive, vast attention. Attention has no periphery, whereas concentration has – it is limited. 所以，毫无拣择的觉知， 一种无选择的觉知，还有专注， 以及这份无限广大的关注。 “关注”是没有界限的， 然而“专注”却有界限，它是有限的。
19:10 Second Question: 'What is an action and state of being that is completely pure?' 第二个问题：什么是“行动”，以及什么是完全纯粹的 存在状态？
19:18 'What is an action and state of being that is completely pure?' 什么是“行动”，以及什么是完全纯粹的存在状态？
19:41 I wonder what we mean by action. What does action mean to you? To act. Does one act according to a principle, according to a prototype or an ideal, or according to some preconceived idea and act approximating that action to that ideal, prototype, to a concept, to a conclusion. Please follow all this, if you are interested in all this. When we talk about action, do we not mean we are acting either with a motive or with a conclusion which we have come to through experience and set a pattern according to which you are acting, or act according to an ideal, a projected ideal – all ideals are always in the future – or, you act according to some bias, prejudice, or a pattern set by an authority, specialist, and so on. We generally act in that manner. And we are asking, is that action? 我想知道我们所说的“行动”是什么意思？ 行动对你来说意味着什么？——去行动。 我们是不是依据某个原则、 按照某个标准或者某种理想， 又或者是依据某种预设好的想法去行动的 ——让我们的行动去符合那些理想、标准， 符合某种概念和结论。 恳请你跟上这些，如果你真的对此有兴趣的话。 当我们谈到“行动”，难道我们不是指： 我们要么持有某个动机、 我们从经验得来的某个结论， 并由此设立一种模式，然后按这种模式去行动， 要么依据某个理想、某个自己所投射的理想去行动 ——所有的理想都属于未来—— 又或者，你是依据某种偏好、偏见 或者由权威、专家所设立的模式，等等来行动的。 我们通常都是以这种方式来行动的。 现在我们问，那是行动吗？
22:07 Action means the doing now. Not according to something that you have remembered or projected. Then you are acting according to a pattern which has been set by an authority, by your own experience and so on. Right? Are we clear on this matter? So there is always apparently an act according to something or other. I act – I do something through habit, through my conditioning, through my various accumulated prejudices, which I call knowledge – and for most of us that is action. My father, my country has told me what to do, and I do and I act according to that, or I revolt against the pattern, set my own pattern and act according to that – patterns are the same whether it’s given to me or I have made for myself – patterns are patterns. A mould, a norm is a norm. It’s not Christian norm or Indian norm or Buddhist norm, it is a norm, a framework within which I act. Right? Now, we are asking – we are exploring together, I am not telling you how to act, that would be too silly. 行动意味着当下去做 ——而不是依据你记得的或投射的东西去做， 那样你就会按照 由某个权威或者自己的经验等等所设立的模式来行动。 对吗？我们对此都清楚了吗？ 因此，有一种行动——显然一直有一种 依据这个或那个而来的行动。 我行动、我做什么，都是根据我的局限， 根据我累积起来的各种偏见——我称之为知识—— 对我们大多数人来说，这就是行动。 我的父亲，我的国家告诉了我该怎么做， 我据此做事和行动，要么我就与这种模式对抗， 设立自己的模式，然后据此模式行动。 模式无论是别人给的 还是我自己设立的，模式就是模式。 模具、规范就是规范而已。 不是什么基督教的规范、印度人的规范，或者佛教的规范， 它就是种规范——一种我据此行动的框架而已，对吗？ 那么，我们在问——我们是在一起探究， 我不是在告诉你如何行动，因为这么做相当愚蠢——
24:25 Then what do we mean by action? Does action vary according to circumstances, according to climate, to pressure? All these are involved in that one word, ‘action’. I don’t know if you are exploring it with the speaker. So is there – we are investigating – is there an action which is correct, precise, not changing according to one’s mood, according to one’s temperament, pleasure, and so on, action that is true, not dependent on the past as a memory or the future as an ideal. You are following all this? This is involved in that one word. So we are asking, is there an action totally free from all conditioning? Conditioning is to have an ideal which then dictates or tries to impose upon ‘what is’. Right? I am greedy, and I have an idea of not being greedy and I try to act according to ‘what should be’, not ‘what is’. Or, I have been so conditioned by commercialism, by television, greed is non-existent – I want to buy and I buy. They tell me to buy this or that, and I buy. 那么我们所说的“行动”是什么意思？ 行动是不是会依据环境、 依据气候、压力而有所改变呢？ 所有这些都包含在一个词中——“行动”。 我不知道你是不是和讲话者一起在探究。 因此，有没有——我们正在探究—— 有没有一种正确的、精确的行动， 它不随人的情绪变动， 不随人的脾气、心情等等这些变动， 那种正确的行动 不依凭作为记忆的过去，也不依赖化身理想的未来。 你跟上这些了吗？ 这都包含在“行动”这个词中了。 因此，我们问， 有没有一种行动彻底地摆脱了所有局限？ 局限就是拥有某个理想， 接着这个理想就去指示或者试图对“现状”施加影响，对吗？ 我很贪婪，而我持有“不贪婪”的观念， 然后我努力依据“应当如何”而不是依据“现实”行动， 又或者，我深受商业主义、深受电视的局限 ——它们说这不是贪婪，我想买就买好了， 他们让我买这个或者那个，我就买了。
26:53 So, can we find out what is right behaviour, which is action, what is right movement which will not change according to various circumstances. That is really the problem, one of the problems in that question. You have understood? One has exposed the full meaning of that word. Right? The implication of that word, the wide significance of that word. Then is it possible to act without a motive, without an ideal, without any form of conditioning? Conditioning is environmental, conditioning is religious, conditioning is according to what one has read, educated and so on – conditioning. So the problem there is, can the mind, the brain – let’s keep to the word ‘mind’ for the moment – can the mind be free from all conditioning so that it acts? That requires a great deal of attention, a great deal of watching: to be aware that one has ideals and is conforming his actions according to that. I am this, I should be that, which is called self-improvement. Lovely phrase! That is, the self, which is selfishness, trying to improve itself, so it is becoming more selfish. Is it possible to put away all this and see actually what is and act. You understand? This requires… I don’t want to go more into this – shall we go more into it? 因此，我们能不能找出 什么是正确的行为——也就是行动， 什么是正确的 不因各种条件而改变的运动。 这是真正的问题，是提问者所问的问题之一。 你明白了吗？ 我已经说明了“行动”这个词的全部意思，对吗？ ——这个词的隐义，以及这个词所含的广义。 那么，有没有可能去行动而不持有任何动机、任何理想， 不受任何形式的局限呢？ 有环境造成的局限，宗教上的局限， 以及我们所阅读的东西 和所受的教育等等带来的局限——所有这些局限。 因此问题就是，心灵、头脑能不能 ——让我们暂时还是先用“心灵”这个词吧—— 心灵能不能从所有局限中解脱出来，并因此有所行动呢？ 这需要大量的关注、 大量的观察： 去觉知到我们怀有各种理想， 并努力使自己的行动去符合这些理想 ——我是这样的，而我应该那样——这被称为“自我完善”。 多动听的说法！ 也就是，这个自我——也就是自我中心，努力地改善自己， 因此，它就变得越来越自私。 那么，有没有可能抛开所有这些，去看“真实现状”，并有所行动。 你了解了吗？这需要 对此我不想再多作深入——我们要对它作深入探究吗？
30:02 Is there an action which is not born out of knowledge? Careful now. There is a technological action, physical action, where I must have a great deal of knowledge if I am to be a good engineer, a specialist in computers – I must have a great deal of knowledge about it, or a good carpenter, good builder – there knowledge is necessary. And if I act psychologically according to knowledge, I am accumulating knowledge and acting according to knowledge which is incomplete, therefore it is always in conflict. Right? Do we see this or am I going too… That which is incomplete must always be fragmentary in its action; obviously. Is it right? Shall we go on? 是不是存在一种并非源自于知识的行动？ 仔细听好了。 有技术性的行动，身体上的行动， 为此我必须拥有丰富的知识， 如果我要成为优秀的工程师、电脑专家， 那么我就必须拥有相关的丰富知识， 或者要成为一名优秀的木匠、建筑者——这时知识是必不可少的。 而如果在心理上，我是依据知识而行动的， 那么我就是在积累知识 并依据这些不完整的知识来行动， 因此总是处在冲突之中——对吗？ 我们是不是都看到了这点，还是我讲得太深了？ 不完整的东西，必定 在其行动时是四分五裂的——这是很显然的。 对吗？我们可以继续吗？
31:36 So is there an action – please, enquire with me, don’t accept, be a little sceptical about this, rationally sceptical – is there an action which is not born of psychological memory? If I act according to my psychological knowledge which I have gathered about myself and I know that knowledge is always limited, my actions then will be limited. Right? And therefore any limited action must invariably bring about its own contradiction. Right? So my action must breed regret, pain, contradict that action the next day and so on. So is there an action that is free – please just find out, don’t accept all this – is there an action free from the past recollections, past memories, past accumulation of all psychological information which is knowledge, and that knowledge, which is me, and therefore that me is limited, and when I say, I will do this and act in this manner, that action will invariably be limited and contradictory, and therefore confusing and so on. Right? If this is understood clearly, then is there an action – apart from the technological and all the rest of it – is there an action which is totally free from the accumulated experience of the past as me, as memories, recollections? Probably nobody has asked this question. Not that I am the original, but probably we have not asked that question. And we are asking it now. It is a very interesting question, it is really, because that involves – do you want me to go into all this? Is it an amusement for you? As I was saying, if you are interested, I will go into it. If you are interested in it – the brain is always accumulating, recording, every experience is recorded – the accident or some happening is recorded, and according to that record you act – naturally. If I have had a motor accident, I am very careful next time. There it is necessary. But we are asking, is there an action which is not previously recorded? You understand? Right? You see? Does it interest you, this? 因此，是不是有一种行动 ——恳请你，和我一起探究，不要只是接受， 对此要有一点怀疑—— 是不是存在一种行动——合理的怀疑—— 是不是存在一种行动，它不是源自于心理上的记忆呢？ 如果我依据自己心理上的知识 ——我累积的有关自己的一切——去行动， 并且我知道知识总是有限的， 那么，我的行动也将是受限的。对吗？ 因此，任何受限的行动 必然无可避免地会引发它自身的矛盾，对吗？ 因此，我的行动必然会孕育悔恨、痛苦， 第二天又会推翻自己的行动等等。 因此，是不是有一种行动 ——恳请你去弄清楚，不要只是接受这一切—— 是不是有一种行动摆脱了过去的所有回忆、记忆 以及过去累积起来的所有心理信息——也就是知识， 而这种知识——也就是“我”， 这个“我”因此是深受局限的。 当我说，“我会这么做”，并用这种方式去行动， 那么，这种行动一定会受限制，并且矛盾重重， 也因此是混乱的，等等——对吗？ 如果这点清楚了，那么，是不是存在一种行动 ——除了技术上的行动，等等这些—— 是不是存在一种行动，完全摆脱了 过去所累积的各种经验，也就是摆脱了“我”， 摆脱了各种记忆、回忆？ 也许还没有人问过这个问题， 这并不是说我是原创者， 只是有可能我们还没问这个问题。 那么，现在我们就来问一问。 这个问题相当有趣，真的，因为它包含了 ——你想对此作探究吗？ 对你来说这是不是种消遣？ 我们说了，如果你有兴趣，我们就去探究它， 如果你真的对它有兴趣的话—— 大脑一直在累积、在记录， 每个经验都被记录下来 ——意外或者某个事件被记录下来， 然后据此记录，你有所行动——这很自然。 如果我发生过车祸，下次我就会非常小心 ——这是必要的。 但是我问，我们在问，是不是有一种行动， 它并不是之前记录过的？——你了解吗？ 对吗？你明白吗？这让你有兴趣吗？
35:58 Ask yourself this question, sir. Our actions are based on past records, like a gramophone, you play the disk over and over and over again, that is your record; the record and action according to that past noise. Now, is there an action which is not born out of psychological recording? You are following all this? How do you find out? Here is a problem put to you. You may reject it, say that’s nonsense, that can never happen. That’s a possibility. Also, the other possibility is it may happen. Right? It may be true, or it may be false, but you have to investigate it. To investigate it, you can’t assert one or the other. Right? So, one must let those two go – the assertive statement that it is not possible, or the negative assertion that it is possible. So they are both put aside. Then, what is the state of your mind – are you interested in all this? – what is the state of your mind which is freed from the sense of past recording, and acting according to that? It’s freed. If it is freed, and if it’s possible to be freed, then what is the quality of perception, the insight that is instant action? You are following? You understand? Just listen to it, and I’ll explain a little more, if I may, and if you are interested in it, if you have the patience to go into it. 恳请你问一下自己这个问题，先生： 我们的行动都是基于过去的各种记录之上的， 就像一部留声机，你一遍又一遍地播放着唱片， 那是你的记录， 有这种记录，然后根据这种过去的噪音而行动。 那么，有没有一种并非源自心理记录的行动？ ——你都跟上这些了吗？—— 你要如何去弄清？ 现在这个问题摆在你面前。 你可能会拒绝回答，会说这些很荒谬，绝无可能会发生， ——是有这可能。 同时，也有另一种可能——也许它会发生，对吗？ 这也许是真实的，也许是虚假的，但你必须对它一探究竟， 而去探究它，你就不能有这个主张或者那个主张——对吗？ 因此，你必须将这两者都放下 ——断言这是不可能的， 或者反之断定这是有可能的。 因此，将这两者都抛开。 然后，你的心会处在什么样的状态？——你对此有兴趣吗？—— 你的心灵处在什么样的状态？ ——它从过去的记录以及据此行动的做法中解脱了出来—— 它得到了解脱。如果它解脱了，如果它有可能解脱的话， 那么，这种觉察， 这种洞察——也就是即刻的行动——具有什么样的品质？ 你明白了吗？你了解了吗？ 请你听一听，我再多做些解释——如果可以的话， 并且如果你们对此有兴趣，如果你们有耐心探究它的话——
38:47 I am walking along the mountain, and I suddenly come to a precipice. The action there is instantaneous. The action is brought about by self-preservation, which is intelligence. Right? Self-preservation is natural, bodily response which says, guard yourself. There it is also cultivated, it has been the experience of mankind not to fall over a precipice. That past continuous self-preservative motive is recorded – unconsciously or consciously – and the response there is natural intelligence. Now, similarly we have recorded psychological preservation. Are you following this? That is, what am I if I have no memory? If there is no recording? I am nobody. So, the fear of being nobody, and the knowledge of that gives a central feeling that you must preserve yourself. Right? You are following all this? And from that you act. Therefore, memory, knowledge, is necessary, and there it is the same movement carried over into the psychological field. Is this clear, or am I muddling it? I am afraid I’m muddling it. Clear as mud! 我在山间漫步， 蓦地绕到了悬崖边上 ——此时的行动就是瞬间发生的。 这个行动源自于自我保护 ——也就是智慧，对吗？ 自我保护是很自然的，是身体的自然反应， 它说，护卫你自己 ——这也是培养出来的， 这已经是人类的经验了——不要坠落悬崖。 这种源自过去的、持续的自我保护的动机被记录下来 ——无意识地或者有意识地—— 而那时的反应就是种很自然的智慧。 以此类推，我们也记录下了心理上的自我保护。 ——你跟上了吗？—— 也就是，如果我没有记忆，那么，我是什么？ 如果没有记录，如果没有记忆， 我就什么都不是。 因此，我害怕自己什么都不是， 这种“害怕”的经验就赋予了一种中心感 ——你必须保护你自己。 对吗？你跟上这些了吗？ 然后你根据这份感受去行动。 因此，记忆、知识是必要的， 而同样的运动却被照搬到了 心理领域。 这清楚了吗，还是我给搞糊涂了？ 恐怕我是搅浑了，跟一团烂泥一样！
41:28 Now I want to find out – I’m serious in this matter – I’ll meditate for hours or think, work, I must find out whether there is an action which is not born out of previous records. If that is your intense demand, that is what you want to find out, then one has to watch very carefully any recording taking place. And a recording will not take place when there is complete attention. It’s only inattention, lacking attention, that creates – what was I going to say then? – that creates the recording. Have you noticed this? When you are looking at those mountains or this landscape with all the trees and the sunlight, and you are giving complete attention to it, that is, watching, watching all the trees, all the movement of the leaves and the light on the leaves and the shadows – complete attention, there is no recording. Have you notice that? Or is it my fantasy? Please experiment as we are sitting here. 而我想弄清楚——在这件事上我很认真， 我冥想几个小时，又或者思考、研究，我必须搞清楚： 是不是存在一种行动，它并非源于之前的记录。 如果这是你热切的需要，如果你想要搞清楚的话， 那么，你就必须很认真地观察所有记录的产生。 而当存在全然的关注时，就不会发生记录， 只有心不在焉、缺乏关注时，才会制造 ——我接下来要说什么？——制造记录。 你对此注意过吗？ 当你眺望这些山脉或者这片景色， 还有这些树木、阳光， 你全神贯注地看， 也就是——观看——观看所有树木、 叶子的全部运动， 观看叶面上泛着的光和各种倒影—— 全然地关注，就不存在记录。 你可曾注意到这些？还是这只是我的幻想？ 恳请你试验一下——我们坐在这儿的时候。
43:31 So it is possible not to record: not an action born out of remembrance, an action born of an insight – an insight, and from that insight there is action. I’ll take one example, I hope that’ll help. I don’t like taking examples, but I will go into it. 因此，不做记录是有可能的 ——记录是一种源自于记忆的行动—— 而源自于洞察的行动 洞察——由这种洞察就会产生行动。 我举个例子，但愿能有所帮助； 我并不喜欢举例子，但是我会讲一下。
44:08 One perceives logically that organised religions all over the world, with their beliefs, with their dogmas, with their rituals, with their superstitions, with their particular form of worship, and so on, is just born out of fear, born out of propaganda, born out of the threat of society – threat of society is, if you are a Protestant in a Catholic country, you'll find it rather difficult. Right? So, to have an insight into the whole nature of the religious organised structure. To have complete insight into it, which means you’re neither a Hindu nor Catholic, Protestant, etc. You see the content of that structure instantly, and that perception, immediate perception, frees you from all organising – of religious constructed organisation. Right? That no so-called spiritual structure, spiritual authority will ever free man from sorrow. To have an insight into it means that you don’t belong to anything. There is immediate freedom from all that, as when you come to a precipice, there is instant action. You are getting all this? Are we meeting each other somewhat? It can’t be somewhat, it must be entirely understood. 我们有理有据地发现全世界有组织的宗教 以及它们的信念，它们的教条，它们的仪式， 它们的迷信，它们特定形式的礼拜，等等， 正是源自于恐惧，源自于传教， 源自于社会的威胁 ——社会的威胁也就是，在天主教国家里，如果你是名新教徒， 你会发现举步维艰，对吗？ 因此，要洞察 有组织架构的宗教的整个本质， 要全然地洞察它， 也就意味着，你既不是一名印度教徒，也不是天主教徒、新教徒，或者无论别的什么。 你即刻看到了它整个架构的内容， 这种洞察——即刻的洞察—— 就会使你从所有 宗教机构和团体的组织中解脱出来。对吗？ 完全没有所谓的精神架构、精神权威 ——这就会使人类彻底地从悲伤中解脱出来。 要洞察它就意味着你不隶属于任何事物， 然后就能即刻从所有那些中解脱出来——就如你濒临悬崖边时， 就会即刻跳开一样。 对此你们都领会了吗？我们是不是多少有点互相领会了呢？ 不能只是有点，必须是全然地了解。
46:23 So there is an action that is not born out of past remembrances or future hopes and ideals. It is being totally aware of ‘what is’, and having an insight into ‘what is’ is the ending of ‘what is’. I wonder if you see that? Shall I go on to the next question? 因此，有一种行动——它不是源于对过去的记忆， 也不是源于对未来的希望和理想—— 它是全然地觉知“现状”， 而洞察“现状”也就是终结了“现状”。 我不知道你是不是看到了这点？ 我可以继续下个问题了吗？
47:07 Third Question: 'Since the word is not the thing, can we truly be enlightened through words? Can symbols undo the damage done by symbols, or are we being seduced by the illusion of enlightenment?' 第三个问题：既然言词不是那事物本身， 那么，我们真的能通过真言开悟吗？ 符号能不能消除它给人类所造成的伤害， 还是，我们被开悟的幻想迷惑了呢？
47:37 'Since the word is not the thing, can we truly be enlightened through words? Can symbols undo the damage done by symbols, or are we being seduced by the illusion of enlightenment?' 既然言词不是那事物本身， 那么，我们真的能通过真言开悟吗？ 符号能不能消除它给人类造成的伤害， 还是，我们被开悟的幻想迷惑了呢？
48:05 I wonder if most of us realise that the word is never the thing. My wife is never the woman – or my husband. The word – you know, if you go into this problem of the word... do you want to go into all that? If we realise the word is not the actual thing, the description is not the actuality, the symbol is never the fact, the ideal is never ‘what is’, and if you observe, if you are aware, our brain is caught in words. A network of words. I am a Catholic, I am a Protestant, I am an American – they are all symbols, they are all words, pictures. And the brain is caught in that. That is, thinking is a word. Without a word, is there a thinking? I don’t want to go into all this. 我想知道，是不是我们大多数人都意识到言词决不是那事物本身 ——我的妻子决不是这个女人，我的丈夫也决不是这个男人。 言词——你知道，如果你要探究“言词”这个问题—— 你想要探究它吗？ 如果我们意识到——言词并不是那实际的事物， 描述并不是那个实情，符号决不是那个事实， 理想也决不是“现实”， 如果你观察到，如果你觉知到 就会发现我们的头脑陷入了各种词汇里，陷进了言词的罗网里。 我是名天主教徒，我是名新教徒，我是美国人——你跟上了吗？—— 它们都是些符号，都是些名词、图画而已， 而头脑却深陷其中。 也就是说，思想只是个词语，没有了这个词语，思想还存在吗？ 我不想对这些全部都去探究，
49:43 It is very interesting for you to find out all these things, because then your mind becomes extraordinarily alert, naturally. To be free of the word, but yet use the word accurately. So the word is not the thing, and the symbol is never the actual. Fear, the word ‘fear’, is not the reaction. Right? But the word ‘fear’ shapes our action. Not the feeling of fear, but either the word creates the fear, or, the word shapes the fear. And is it possible to look at that reaction without the word. This is quite simple. 但对你而来说，去弄清楚这些，是相当有趣的， 因为这样的话，你的心灵自然会变得极其敏锐 ——从言语中解脱了出来，但仍然能很精确地使用言语。 因此，言词不是那事物本身，而符号也决不是那个事实。 恐惧，“恐惧”这个词不是那个反应——对吗？ 但是，“恐惧”这个词却塑造了我们的行动。 并不是“恐惧”的感觉，而是“恐惧”这个词制造了恐惧， 或者是这个词塑造了恐惧， 那么，有没有可能看着这种反应而不带有丝毫的语言 ——这相当简单。
51:06 ‘Can we truly be enlightened through words?’ Good God! I wonder why we use the word ‘enlightenment’? We’ll go into the word ‘enlightenment’, it’s very interesting to go into what we mean by enlightenment, which all the gurus talk about. It is a word to some people that is a sacred word, to be enlightened. Not through books, not through knowledge, not through time. You understand? It isn’t a thing that you gradually work up to – by practice, by meditation, by doing all kinds of tricks. So, obviously, the word ‘love’ is not love. And, similarly, what is enlightenment? Who is enlightened? Enlightened of what? Enlightened about what? You follow? Enlightened – don’t go funny about it. Surely a mind that is enlightened is free from all conditioning. A Hindu, with his superstitions, with all the business of his religious conditioning, as well as psychological and environmental conditioning has made him call himself a Hindu. How can such a mind, which has been so conditioned, ever be free? Is enlightenment complete freedom from conditioning? Can a Catholic – I hope there's nobody… I am not treading on anybody’s toes – can a Catholic, with all his superstition, with his saviours, with his rituals, and the hierarchical authority and so on, can he ever be enlightened? With his conditioning, baptism, you know the whole intellectual, cunning business that holds the people to a pattern. You answer it yourself. Can a mind – can a human being be enlightened when he is frightened? When he is seeking power, position, accumulating money in the name of enlightenment – which is what some of the gurus are doing, vast sums of money, and they talk about enlightenment. 我们真的可以通过真言得到开悟吗？天啊！ 我想知道为什么我们要用“开悟”这个词？ 很显然，我们要探究一下“开悟”这个词 ——这很有趣——去探究我们所说的“开悟”是什么意思， 所有古鲁都谈论这个词。 这个词对一些人来说是很神圣的字眼——“开悟”。 我们是无法借助于书籍、知识、时间来觉悟的。 你了解吗？ 它并不是一件你可以通过修炼，通过冥想， 通过各式各样的把戏而渐次达到的事情。 因此，很显然，“爱”这个词也并不是爱本身。 那么，同样地，什么是“开悟”？ 是谁开悟？领悟了什么？ 悟到了什么？——你跟上了吗？ 开悟——别那么滑稽。 无疑，开悟的心灵从所有局限中解脱了出来。 一名印度教徒，带着他的盲目信仰， 带着他宗教信仰的局限所有这类东西， 也带着心理上的局限和环境的局限， 这使得他自称为一名印度教徒。 这样一颗如此深受局限的心怎么可能自由？ 开悟是不是彻底地从局限中解脱了出来？ 一名天主教徒能不能 ——我但愿没有人是，我也没有触犯任何人的意思—— 一名天主教徒能不能——他有着所有的盲目信仰， 他的救世主，他的各种宗教仪式， 以及他那等级化的权威等等—— 他究竟可能 带着他的局限、洗礼而得到开悟吗？ ——你知道这整聪明、狡猾的把戏， 它把人束缚在模式里。 这个问题由你自己来回答。 心灵——一个人可能在他惶恐不安的时候开悟吗？ 当他以开悟的名义， 去追求权力、地位以及累积财富时 ——这正是一些古鲁在做的，积累大量的金钱—— 同时他们却高谈阔论着开悟。
55:15 So the word is not the thing. And, the questioner asks, have the symbols done damage to the human psyche? Obviously. If I am a Hindu – personally I am not. I was born in India, but that has no meaning – if I am a Hindu, they’ve got innumerable symbols, like the Christian world: their goddesses, their gods, tribal gods and smaller gods and higher gods. I have been conditioned in that – if. And how can I… Those conditionings, those symbols, have damaged the clarity of a mind, of the psyche. Right? That is obvious. Symbols obviously have done damage. Because that prevents a human being going directly to truth, to the fact, not worship the symbols. 因此，这个词并不是那事物本身。 发问者还问， 符号是不是对人类的心灵造成了伤害？很显然是的。 如果我是个印度教徒——我个人并不是印度教徒，假如我是—— 我出生在印度，但这并不能说明什么 ——如果我是个印度教徒，他们早已有数不清的符号， 就像基督教的世界：他们的女神， 他们的上帝、部落的神明以及较小的神和较高的神 ——我早已深受其局限，如果 我要如何才能够 这些局限，这些符号， 早已破坏了心智和心灵的清明。 对吗？这很明显。 很显然，符号已经造成了伤害。 因为符号阻碍了一个人直接 面对真相、面对事实，所以不要去崇拜符号了。
57:03 The questioner also asks: are we being seduced by the illusion of enlightenment? Obviously. That sounds lovely. But enlightenment is not of time. It’s not a process. It’s not something that you gradually come to. To be free from all conditioning, which also implies to be a light to oneself completely, and not depend on any person, any idea, any teacher – a light to oneself. So wholly, from that light there is action. Ah, this is a lovely question, the next one. 提问者也问： 我们是不是被开悟的幻想诱导了？ 显然是，那听起来很美妙。 而开悟并不属于时间的范畴，它不是一个过程， 不是某样你可以渐次达到的东西。 要从所有局限中解脱出来 ——也就意味着完全做自己的明灯， 而不依赖任何人、任何观念或者任何导师—— 要做自己的明灯， ——如此完全地做自己的明灯，那么由这盏明灯就会有行动。 啊，接下来的问题是一个相当好的问题。
58:12 Fourth Question: 'Why do we not change?' 第四个问题：我们为什么没有转变？
58:18 Yes, sir. I was going to ask that question myself. 是的，先生，我一直都在问自己这个问题。
58:29 I see people here, whom I have known for many years, come year after year, and I have asked them, too, why do we not change? What will make us change? Do ask this question yourself. What is the energy, the drive, the intensity, that will make us change? Change – what do we mean by that word ‘change’? Change from this to that. Right? That is preconceived, therefore it’s no change at all. I wonder if you see this? Do we see this? If I change according to some pattern which I have carefully established, it is not change. It’s a continuation of ‘what is’, modified, which I hope will lead me further, and further modification, but it is the same chain. Right? The same movement. So, what do we mean by change? To the speaker it means the ending, not continuation of ‘what is’ modified. You understand? Take for instance physical revolution; the Communists, the Leninists, the Trotskyists – change. Their idea of revolution is to change the whole structure of society, the outward environment, hoping thereby to bring about a different human being. The outside pressure of change, from the Tsar to the Communist, Bolshevik and so on, will ultimately or as soon as possible make man different. So, they have not succeeded, on the contrary, they have done terrible things. 我在这里看到一些人 ——我认识他们已经很多年了，他们年复一年地来， 我也问过他们，为什么我们没有转变？ 什么会使我们转变？ ——恳请你问自己这个问题—— 什么样的能量、动力和热情，能使我们转变？ 转变——我们所说的“转变”是什么意思？ 是从这样变成那样吗？ 那是预先想好的，因此，其中根本没有转变。 我不知道你是不是看到了这点？我们是不是看到了这点？ 如果我依据某个模式作出改变 ——我精心建立起来的模式——这就不是改变。 这只是“现状”修正后的延续 ——我希望这会引领我到更远，然后作更进一步的修正—— 但这出自同一链条——对吗？——是同样的运动。 因此，我们所说的“转变”是什么意思？ 对讲话者来说，它意味着终结 而不是“现状”修改后的延续。 ——你了解了吗？ 举个例子，有形的革命 ——共产主义者，列宁主义者，托洛茨基分子的改革—— 他们的革命观念就是去改变社会的整个架构， 改变外部的环境， 希望借此造就一种截然不同的人。 也就是，外在影响的压力——从沙皇改革为共产主义、 布尔什维克等等—— 最终会，或者会尽快地创造出截然不同的人。 因此，他们没有成功， 恰恰相反，他们做了很多可怕的事。
1:01:10 So we are talking about change psychologically. Change completely the content of our consciousness. 因此，我们正在讨论的是心理上的转变 ——彻底地转变我们意识的内容。
1:01:29 Right? Not change consciousness into a better consciousness, to a more polished consciousness – less violent but occasionally violent, and so on. The ending of the content of consciousness is radical change – radical mutation, I won’t use the word ‘change’ there. So, why don’t we change? Move away from this totally. Have we made the question clear? Why, after millions and millions of years, we human beings have reduced ourselves to the present appalling condition – it is appalling, frightening, the violence, the brutality, the killing for a piece of land – for God’s sake! Why? And the question is: why don’t we bring about ending to all this? Please answer this. You are all educated, workers, intelligent in a certain direction, making money, going to work, and all the rest of it, but you haven’t solved the real issue. Why? Will outside pressure change you, bring about a mutation of the psyche? Mutation means total change: that which has been is not. Not change to something. That which has been, that is, my anger, my violence, my stupidity, my holding onto some idiotic illusion, some symbol which perhaps will save me from something or other. What will make us change? Outside pressure obviously has not done it. Right? That’s very clear. Is that clear to you? By changing society, you are not going to be changed. Because you have created the society. That's clear? We have made this society what it is: wars, killing each other for some national prestige, honour, a piece of land. You understand what all this is? 对吗？ 并不是要把意识变得更好、 更精良， 少些暴力——只是偶尔暴力一下，等等这些。 终结意识的内容就是彻底的转变、 彻底的突变 ——对此我不会用“改变”这个词。 那么，我们为什么没有转变？ ——完全地脱离这些。我们把问题说清楚了吗？ 为什么，经过了数百万年以后， 我们人类已使自己沦落到了现在这样可怕的境地 ——可怕的、骇人的境地： 暴力、残酷，为了一片土地 或者为了上帝而厮杀——为什么？ 所以我们的问题是：我们为什么不去终结这一切？ 恳请你回答它。你们都受过教育，是各类的工作者， 在某个特定的领域里很聪明——赚钱、 上班等等诸如此类， 但是你们却还没解决真正的问题，为什么？ 外在的影响会改变你吗，会给你带来一场心灵突变吗？ 突变意味着彻底的转变，一直以来的境况不复存在， 而不是转变成别的样子。 一直以来的境况，也就是，我的愤怒、我的暴力、我的愚蠢， 我所紧抓的某个愚蠢的幻想、某个符号 ——它们也许会救我于一时。 什么会让我们转变呢？ 很显然，外部的影响做不到。 对吗？这点显而易见。你清楚了吗？ 你无法通过改造社会来让自己改变， 因为，是你制造了这个社会。 这点清楚了吗？是我们一手缔造了如今的社会： 征战不休，为了国家的声望、 荣誉、一片土地而互相杀戮。你了解这一切，对吗？
1:04:54 And after thousands of years we are not free from fear. What will make us change? More knowledge about yourself? More knowledge of the world, outside of us? Knowledge that we must not kill and we kill? We have accumulated thousands of years of knowledge which has helped us to kill people. And also we have knowledge that we shouldn’t kill – where does it lead us? 而数千年之后，我们还是没有从恐惧中解脱出来。 到底什么会使我们转变呢？ 更多的关于自己的知识吗？ 是对我们外部的世界更多的认识吗？ 是“我们一定不能杀生，而我们还在杀生”这样的知识吗？ 我们已经累积了数千年的知识， 这些知识却助长我们去杀害他人， 我们也持有很多“我们不应该杀戮”的知识， 但这些知识把我们引到了哪儿？——对吗？——
1:05:50 So, will suffering, pain, attachment, pressure, the carrot – reward and punishment? Will all that change us? Apparently it hasn’t. So what will make us change? Not change – what will make us transform, what will make us end this terrible confusion, sorrow, pain, anxiety, lonely – all that – end? Tears? We have cried enough. Sorrow? Nothing outside. I wonder if we realise that. No gods, no saviours, no external force, agency is ever going to change us. We are much too clever for all that. Much too cunning. 因此，苦难、痛苦、执着、压迫、 利益、奖惩，它们会不会——你跟上了吗？—— 这一切会不会改变我们？ 很显然不会。 因此，是什么会让我们改变呢？ 不是“改变”，而是什么会让我们“转变”。 什么会让我们终结可怕的混乱、悲伤、 痛苦、忧虑、孤独——让这一切都终结？ ——是泪水吗？我们已然哭够了。 是悲伤吗？绝不是外在的事物。 我不知道我们是不是意识到了这点。 从来没有上帝、没有救世主、没有外部的力量以及中介， 会转变我们 ——耍这些把戏我们都太精明、太圆滑了。
1:07:29 I think this is a very serious question one should ask oneself: will time bring about this mutation? You have had time, million years, obviously time will not. So nothing outside will change us, will bring about mutation. What will change us is only our own awareness of the confusion in which we live, and watching that, remaining with that completely, not trying to change it, not trying to do something about it. You understand this? It is very interesting. We reject – if we do – outside agency altogether – gods and all… reject it, any intelligent man does reject it. But he doesn’t reject the operator inside. You understand? The actor who says, I will do this. That actor is the past memory, past remembrance, past knowledge. If that could be completely transformed then you observe ‘what is’ completely freely, and when you observe so totally with complete attention, 'that which is' has completely ended. So it must be one’s own perception of one’s misery, confusion, and live with it wholly, not trying to act upon it. 我认为这是个很严肃的问题，我们必须要问一问自己： 时间会带来这场突变吗？ 你一直以来都拥有时间——数百万年了——很显然时间不能。 因此，外在的任何事物都不会改变我们，不会带来突变。 会转变我们的只能是我们自己的关注力 ——自己去觉知我们生活于其中的混乱， 观察它，彻底地与之共处， 不试图改变它，不试图对它做任何事。 ——你了解这些吗？这相当有趣。 我们抛开……如果我们抛掉所有的外部中介、 上帝等等这些——聪明人确实会抛掉这些， 但是他却不会舍弃内在的操纵者。 你明白吗？ 这个说“我会这么做”的行动者， 这个行动者就是过去的记忆、过去的回忆、过去的知识。 如果这些能够被彻底地转化， 那么，你就能彻底自由地观察“现实”了， 而当你全神贯注，这么全然地观察时， “现实”也就彻底地结束了。 因此，你必须自己去觉察自己的痛苦、混乱 并与之全然相处——不试图对付它。
1:10:03 It is now an hour and ten minutes, can you stand some more of this? 现在已经讲了一小时十分钟了，你们还能再坚持一会儿吗？
1:10:09 Q: Yes. 提问者：是的。
1:10:17 K: Can you really stand it?

Q: Yes. 		克：你们真的能坚持？提问者：是的。
1:10:24 Fifth Question: 'Can you speak more deeply about the meaning of holiness and especially its place in the modern world?' 第五个问题：你能不能更深入地谈谈“神圣”这个词的意思， 特别是它在当今世界的位置？
1:10:35 'Can you speak more deeply about the meaning of holiness and especially its place in the modern world?' 你能不能更深入地谈谈“神圣”这个词的意思， 特别是它在当今世界的位置？
1:10:55 The word ‘holy’ is not the reality. Right? Is thought holy – H-O-L-Y – sacred? Go on, sir, investigate it. Is thought, thinking, which has created the architecture, the cathedrals, the most marvellous 10th, 12th-century – extraordinary beauty. If you have been to some of those ancient temples, the ancient cathedrals in Europe, the extraordinary sense of vitality of those pillars, the beauty of the high ceiling. Thought has done all that. And thought also has created all the content within that structure, that marvellous stone structure. Right? That’s obvious, isn’t it? Right? So what is sacred? That is, what is that which is holy, whole? If thought is sacred, then everything that it creates is holy: the cannon, the atom bomb, the killing of each other, the computer, the saviour – your saviour, not mine – the rituals, the beating of somebody – you follow? – then, if you once admit thought is sacred, everything it does is sacred. Right? And thought has invented that which is not sacred and that which is sacred. It has divided the world as the world, and that which is sacred which is not the world. The saint and the sinner. “神圣”这个词并不真实——对吗 思想是神圣——神、圣——圣洁的吗？ 先生，请继续探究它。 思想、念头已经缔造了各类建筑、 教堂，十世纪、十二世纪最辉煌璀璨的大教堂 ——非凡的美。 如果你曾去过一些古老的寺庙、 欧洲的古老教堂， 你能感受到那些大圆柱所带来的庄严感， 那高耸的穹顶所带来的美感。 思想已经创造了这一切。 并且思想也缔造了这些架构—— 那些美轮美奂的石砌建筑里的全部内容。 对吗？这很明显，不是吗？ 对吗？因此，什么是“神圣”？ 也就是，什么是神圣、完整之物？ 如果思想是神圣的，那么它所缔造的一切也都是神圣的： 炮弹、原子弹、 厮杀、 计算机、救世主，——是你的救世主，不是我的—— 仪式、严刑拷打某人——你跟上了吗?—— 那么，你一旦承认思想是神圣的， 那么它所做的一切也都是神圣的。对吗？ 思想发明出了非神圣之物和 神圣之物—— 它把世界划分成了当今的俗世， 而神圣之物是不属于这个俗世的 ——圣人和罪人。
1:14:31 So please, this is a very serious question, it’s not just a casual question at the end of several other questions. It’s very, very serious, this, because thought is tearing man apart: the British, the French, the American, the Russian, the Argentine. You follow? So if you once admit or acquiesce or accept that thought, whatever it does, is sacred, then you have nothing to worry about. Then you will kill each other, you will carry on as you are. That may be what you want. That may be what humanity wants. 因此，请注意，这是个非常严肃的问题， 最后这个问题并不是个随便的问题， 这个问题是非常非常严肃的。 因为是思想分裂了人类： 英国人、法国人、美国人、俄罗斯人、阿根廷人。 ——你跟上了吗？—— 所以你一旦承认、默许或者接受思想——无论它做了什么—— 都是神圣的， 那么你就会毫无顾忌， 你们就会互相厮杀，依然故我下去。 ——这也许就是你想要的，这也许就是人类想要的。
1:15:32 If you want to find out that which is most holy, you cannot measure it by words. To measure that which is measureless by words has no meaning. But to come upon that which is holy, sacred... Is love thought? Then is love desire? Without love, that which is sacred cannot be. 而如果你想发现那最神圣之物， 那么，你就无法用言词去度量它 ——用言词去度量那不可测度之物根本毫无意义， 而是要不期而遇那神圣的、圣洁之物。 爱是思想吗？ 那么爱是欲望吗？ ——没有爱，神圣之物就不可能存在。
1:16:32 So all these explanations are not that which is. That which is eternal cannot be put into words. But when time and thought has come to an end, that which is most sacred is. But if you say, how am I to end my thought, how is time to stop, then you are back to the good old... But to find out, to go into it, what is thought, whether it can end. Thought cannot end as I am going from this place to that place, when I drive a car, or in the very usage of language, in communication. But inwardly, can time stop? Can thought come to an end? Not through control, not through will, but the urge to find out that which is from the beginning, which has no end. To go into it, to find out, requires – this is real meditation, which is the whole movement of life. 因此，所有这些解释都不是那神圣之物， 那永恒之物无法诉诸言词。 但是当时间和思想终结时， 那最圣洁之物就出现了。 但是，要是你问——我要如何终结我的思想，要如何终止时间， 那么，你就又绕回到老路上去了 而是要去弄清，去探究它——什么是思想，它能否终结。 当我从这里去到那里， 当我开车，或者使用语言进行交流时，思想是不可能停止的。 但是，从内在，时间能停止吗？ 思想能终结吗？ ——并不是通过控制，并不是通过意志力， 而是通过强烈的热情去发现那无始无终之物。 要去探究它，发现它，就需要……——这才是真正的冥想， 也就是生活的整体运动。