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OJ82Q3 - 第三次公开问答
美国，加州，欧亥
1982年5月11日



1:14 Many questions have been put. Some rather extravagant and others, if I may point out, rather absurd. Like why don’t I grow a beard. Those we have set aside and taken some of the more serious questions. It’s quite funny, isn’t it, all this. 有很多问题提交上来， 有一些相当离谱，而有一些——容我指出——则相当可笑。 比如，为什么我没有胡子， ——这样的问题我们就搁置一旁了， 然后选出一些更为认真的问题。 这相当有趣——不是吗——这一切。
2:17 May I again remind you, if I may, you are putting these questions to yourself, and trying to find an answer, or to see the implications of the questions. As we also pointed out, it is important how you approach these questions, any question, any problem of life. Whether we approach it personally or with some definite or unconscious motive, or with a desire only to find an answer, thereby we never understand the problem itself. As we said the other day, ‘problem’ means something thrown at you, something that you have to meet, a challenge that you have to respond. But if one responds to it obliquely or in a certain direction, then one is not meeting that challenge completely. So it matters very much, if I may point out, we are not instructing you, we are not teaching you, just pointing out how important it is how you approach a question, a problem. And one has to learn the approach, rather than the solution of the problem. 请允许我再次提醒你们——如果可以的话—— 你们是向自己提出了这些问题， 并试着自己去发现答案， 或者看到问题的含意。 正如我们也指出过的， 重要的是你如何去探究这些问题 ——任何问题、任何生活的难题。 而无论我们是为自己，还是带着某种明确的 或者潜意识的动机， 又或者带着只想得到答案的愿望——去探究它的话， 那么，我们就永远无法了解问题本身。 正如我们前几天说的，问题意味着某件抛给你的东西， 你必须去接的东西，你必须应对的挑战。 但是，如果你拐弯抹角地或者是带着某种取向去回应它， 那么，你就不是在全然地迎接这个挑战。 这很重要，——如果允许我指出的话， 我们并非在指导你，也并非在教授你， 而只是指出—— 你如何去应对一个问题、一个难题——这有多重要。 而我们必须去学习应对的方式， 而不是对问题的解答。
4:24 First Question: 'How do you feel about one million dollars going to educate a small, somewhat select group of children that do not appear to be from the suffering or destitute?' 第一个问题：你如何看待用一百万美元 来教育一小群优选出来的孩子， ——他们似乎并不是来自于贫苦的家庭？
4:41 'How do you feel about one million dollars going to educate a small, somewhat select group of children that do not appear to be from the suffering or destitute?' 你如何看待用一百万美元 来教育一小群优选出来的孩子， ——他们似乎并不是来自于贫苦的家庭？
5:05 What do you think? This school, Oak Grove School, as far as I understand, has a scholarship fund for poorer people, for the so-called destitute, for children who are not from the well-to-do class. I wonder why there is a general antagonism or feeling against a group of people who are elite? And why do we object to a school of this kind, which has really a scholarship; why do you object to it – not knowing all the intricacies of the school, problems of the school, and so on? And why don’t you, if I may point out, object to the enormous sums of money being spent on war? Why don’t you object to that? War – not any particular war, nuclear war, but the whole idea of killing people for one’s country. Isn’t that much more important to object to that than to this? This is also important, we are replying to it. That is, this school, Oak Grove School, they are spending money, a million dollars – if they can get it; I think they will get at least half of it – having a secondary school. And there is a scholarship fund for those who cannot possibly afford the full pay. If you feel this strongly, then what will you do about it? Burn up the place? Or, go into the question why, in an affluent society as in America – as in this country, as in this part of the world – why there are people who are starving, who have very little, who are uneducated, who are submitting to all kinds of horrors, why this country is spending millions and millions and millions on armament and so on. Why? Do we object merely verbally or do we take action about all this? And what can one do when a country, like all over the world, even the most primitive societies in the world are accumulating materials for war. Each country, like France, England, America, and other countries, are selling armaments to other countries, poorer countries, who are also spending millions on all kinds of horrible means of destruction of humanity. What do we feel about all this? And what can one do about all this? 你是怎么想的？ 这所学校，橡树林学校——据我所知—— 有一项奖学金，专为较为贫困的学生——所谓的“贫困者”而设， 为了不是来自于富裕阶级的孩子们而设。 我想知道为什么对于精英人群，我们普遍地怀着敌意， 或者心存反感呢？ 我们为什么会反对这样一所 实际上设有奖学金的学校， 为什么你要反对它， ——在你并不了解这所学校各种复杂的情况， 不了解这所学校的各种问题等等的情况下？ 为什么你——请容我指出—— 不反对大量的金钱花费在战争上呢？ 为什么你不反对这个呢？ 战争，不特指任一战争——核战争， 而是指为了自己的国家去杀人的这整个观念， 难道反对战争不比反对那样的学校要重要得多？ ——这个问题也很重要，我们正在解答它。 也就是，这所学校——橡树林学校， 他们花费了金钱，一百万美元——要是能筹到这么多钱的话—— 我认为，他们至少要有那一半的钱 才能创立一所中学， 并设有一项奖学金， 专为那些可能无法负担全部学费的孩子而设立。 如果你对此很反感，那么你会做什么？ ——烧掉这个地方？ 还是，去探究这个问题——为什么 在像美国这样富裕的社会里， 像这样的国家里，在地球的这片地方， 为什么还会有人忍饥挨饿、一贫如洗， 还会有人未受教育、 担惊受怕？ 为什么这个国家却花费巨万 在军备等等之上——为什么？ 我们对此只是口头反对一下，还是我们采取了行动？ 当一个国家——就像世界各地的国家一样， 甚至是世界上最原始的社会—— 一直都在囤积各种战略物资，对此你能有何作为。 每个国家——像法国、英国、美国，以及其他的国家—— 一直都在兜售武器给其他国家——更为贫穷的国家， 而这些贫穷的国家也耗资数百万 用在了各种恐怖的能摧毁全人类的途径上。 对这一切我们是怎么看的？ 而我们又能对此做点什么？
9:30 It seems almost impossible to stop this destruction of man. So do we go to the root of all this or merely consider not to have certain type of nuclear bombs and so on – superficially. Or, do we go into all these matters deeply? That is, what is the cause of all this? What is the cause of poverty, not only in this country, which is so affluent compared to the rest of the world? What do we do about it? When we go to the Asiatic world, India and so on, the population is increasing every year. In India, 15 or 13 million people are added every year. And a very, very poor country like that is spending billions on armaments, buying Mirage from France, to oppose another country, a neighbour. We are all doing this. What shall we do? What is the cause of all this destitution, poverty, orphans. In the Asiatic world, people have starved, are starving. The speaker was part of it – not enough food as a boy, as a child. So we all know what poverty is. Perhaps not you. I am glad you don’t know it. And what is the root of all this? 似乎要停止这种对人类的毁灭几乎是不可能的。 因此，我们是要深入到这一切的根源， 还是仅仅去考虑不要有某种型号的原子弹 等等——很表面地考虑—— 还是，我们要去深入探究这一切呢？ ——也就是，这一切的根源是什么？ 贫穷的根源是什么？——不只是在这个国家， 跟世界的其他国家相比它是非常富裕的。 我们对此要怎么做？ 当我们去到亚洲国家，印度等等， 那儿人口每年都在递增， 在印度，每年都在增长1500万或者1300万人口， 而像这样一个很贫穷的国家 却耗资亿万在武力上 ——从法国购买幻影战斗机，去对抗另一个国家——它的邻国。 我们都在做这些事。 我们该怎么办？ 这所有的穷困、贫乏、遗孤，其根源是什么？ 在亚洲国家，人们一直挨饿，现在也在挨饿。 讲话者曾经也是—— 没有充足的食物等等——当时他还是个孩子。 因此，我们都知道贫困是什么， ——也许你不知道，我很高兴你不知道。 那么，这一切的根源是什么？
12:13 Is it national pride? Is it some kind of peculiar honour, to fight for one’s own country and kill millions of people in that, for that honour? What is the cause of this destitution, the increasing poverty in the world? Is it that the nationalism has divided people and therefore one country is enormously well-to-do, and the other countries are not? Is it possible to have a global relationship, interrelationship, so that economically, socially, as politics, everything, it is a global problem, not American problem or Asiatic problem. Can we consider that to stop wars, which is part of destitution, part of this enormous destruction of another human being, who is like you. He may call himself a Turk or an Argentine or a British or Russian, but that human being is like you and me. Going through all kinds of misery, hoping for security in nationalism, which is isolation, and in that isolation there is no security. So could we, or some group of people, be free of all nationalism, who are absolutely, totally against war, killing other human beings? I am not telling you to do it, please. ——是民族自豪感吗？ 是某种殊荣 ——为自己的国家而战， 为此殊荣而杀害上百万人吗？ 这种贫困，世界上日益加剧的贫穷，其根源是什么？ ——是不是国家主义分裂了人类？ 因此，有的国家极其富裕， 而有的国家则不是？ 有没有可能——拥有一种全球化的人类关系，彼此紧密相联， 于是经济上、社会上、政治上，一切方面， 都是一个全球人类的问题，而不是美国的问题或者亚洲的问题。 我们能不能对此认真思考以停止战争——战争就是贫困的一部分， 是这种凶残摧毁他人的一部分——这个他人是如你一样的人。 他或许自称为土耳其人、阿根廷人、英国人或者俄国人， 但其实这个人是如你我一样的人 ——他经历了各种痛苦， 希望在国家主义里找到安全——而这是孤立， 在这种孤立里，根本就不存在安全。 因此，我们或者某群人能不能从所有的国家主义里解脱出来 ——这些人是绝对地、完全地反对战争，反对杀害他人的？ 我可不是让你去这么做，拜托。
15:04 There were in ancient societies a group of people who refused to kill under all circumstances. It was their religious deep conviction that to kill was an evil, and if you kill you would pay for it next life, therefore don’t kill – reward and punishment, maybe, but the idea of not killing something, because life is sacred. So if one feels that deeply, one puts aside all tribalism. And can governments in the world not accumulate armaments? It seems almost impossible. The world has gone insane. If you don’t pay tax, you are sent to prison because you are an objector to all this. And if you buy a stamp you are sustaining war. If you pay for petrol – or gas as it’s called in this country – part of it goes to war. 在古代社会有一群人，他们 在任何情况下都绝不杀生， 他们坚定的宗教信念就是——杀生即是恶魔， 如果你杀生，那么来世你就要偿还， 因此，不要杀生，也许会有因果报应， 但是杀死什么的想法……——因为生命是神圣的。 因此，如果我们对此深有感触，就会抛开所有的部落主义。 而世界上的各国政府能不能不去囤积武器呢？ 这看起来几乎是不可能的，这个世界已经失去理智。 如果你不缴税，你就要坐牢， 因为你是这一切的反对者。 但如果你去购买一张邮票，那么你就是在支持战争， 如果你购买汽油或者gas——在这个国家是这么叫的—— 你所付的钱一部分就会被用于战争。
16:41 So, seeing all this, what is a human being to do? Not only in the school – that’s a small affair. What is a human being, confronted with all these problems, what is he to do? Who is responsible for all this? Governments? Politicians? The group of terribly rich people who are controlling governments, big corporations? Who is responsible for all this horror? Please answer these questions. Isn’t each one of us responsible? Because we dislike a foreigner, hate people who are not of the same colour as we are, and so on. Isn’t each one of us responsible for all this? So, if we are responsible, it’s our duty, our intense feeling that will bring about a new society, a new group of people. That’s the function of education. At least we are trying in this school to bring about good human beings, whether they are rich or poor – children are children. Good, integrated, honest human beings. They may fail, but it is good to attempt to do something of that kind. So it’s our responsibility, it seems to us; that each one of us deeply understands this enormous problem for which each one of us is responsible. 因此，看到了所有这一切，一个人要怎么做呢？ 不仅仅在学校——学校只是很小的一部分. 一个人——面对所有这些问题—— 他要怎么做？ 谁该为这一切负责？——政府部门？政客们？ 控制着政府部门和大企业的 极其富有的这群人？ 谁该为这一切可怕的事负责呢？ 恳请你回答这些问题。 难道不是我们每一个人都要为此负责？ 因为，我们不喜欢外来者， 嫌恶和我们肤色不一样的人，等等。 难道不是我们每个人都该为这一切负责吗？ 因此，如果我们负起责任，那么我们的责任感、我们强烈的热情 就将会带来一个崭新的社会，和一群崭新的人。 这也是教育的职责所在。 至少在这所学校里我们会尝试着造就崭新的人类 无论他们是富有还是贫穷——孩子就是孩子—— 带来善良、健全、正直的人。 他们也许会失败，但是去尝试做这样的事就很好。 因此在我们看来，这是我们的责任 ——我们每个人都很深刻地了解这个巨大的问题， 我们每个人都对此负起责任。
19:38 You have heard the speaker saying all this. He has said it all over India, Europe, in this country, in Australia and so on. You listen to all this, and apparently we don’t seem to apply it. And that is really the most terrible thing to do. If you hear something that is true and not apply it, it acts as a poison. Do you understand? It’s a very destructive thing to hear something true, natural, healthy, and not profoundly apply it. Then what you have heard and what you are brings about a contradiction and then there is conflict, perpetual conflict. Far better not to hear any of this, and not apply. 你已经听讲话者讲了这一切。 他在各地都这么讲过——印度、欧洲、 这个国家、澳大利亚等等。 你听了这一切，但很明显，我们似乎并没有实施它。 而实施它也确实是件极其困难的事。 如果你听了某些真实的东西却不实施，那么它就会如同毒药一般。 ——你了解吗？ 这很具破坏性——听了真实、自然、健康的东西， 但却没有深入去实施它。 那么，你所听到的东西和你真实的样子就会引发矛盾， 接着就会有冲突——无休止的冲突。 最好不要听这些，也就不用去实施了。
21:15 The speaker has a passport, an Indian passport, diplomatic passport. But that paper does not identify himself with the country. That paper is merely for the convenience of travelling. 讲话者有一本护照 ——一本印度护照，外交护照， 但是那并不会让他认同那个国家。 那本护照只是为了便于旅行而已。
21:47 Second Question: 'Why do we confuse function with role? For instance, we may teach or do some work, but why do we make personal these functions, claiming them as attributes of ourselves, thereby introducing will, position, power, and consequently tremendous harm?' 第二个问题：为什么我们会把工作职责和个人角色混淆起来？ 举个例子，我们也许是教书或者做某种工作的， 但是，为什么我们把这些工作和个人联系起来， 声称这些工作职责是我们自己的特质， 因而引出了意志力、地位以及权力， 并导致了巨大的伤害？
22:14 'Why do we confuse function with role? For instance, we may teach or do some work, but why do we make personal these functions, claiming them as attributes of ourselves, thereby introducing will, position, power, and consequently tremendous harm?' 为什么我们会把工作职责和个人角色混淆起来？ 举个例子，我们也许是教书或者做某种工作的， 但是，为什么我们把这些工作和个人联系起来， 并声称这些工作职责是我们自己的特质， 因而引出了意志力、地位以及权力， 并导致了巨大的伤害？
22:53 I think the question is fairly clear. Why are we always so personal, about almost everything? Please answer this question to yourself. Why is it that we cannot look at the world impersonally, dispassionately? Why do we, through function, use that function for status? Why can we not keep function as, say for instance, the speaker has something to say, but why does he – if he does, which he doesn’t – why does he, through this function want a status, a position, power, all that business – why? Is it that power is worshipped by human beings? Status is far more important than function? – a prime minister far more important than the cook, a professor is far more important than a man who is learning something or other, master carpenter and so on, you follow? We don’t apparently see that function has its own importance, but if you are using function for a status, your function becomes brittle, it has lost its energy. You know, nowadays – it’s an old problem – functions, as that of a teacher or a great scientist or great statesman, a teacher throughout the world is considered rather not quite, quite. Whereas a scientist, a doctor, we all kind of look up to. But the teacher is far more important than any other profession, because a teacher is bringing about a new generation of people. He should be paid the highest. But we don’t do that. For us, in this peculiar society that we have created the teacher is the least respected, least considered important. Haven’t you noticed all this? The teacher can’t have a Cadillac, or a Lincoln or a Rolls-Royce, but big businessmen can have it, and you respect the Cadillacs, Lincolns and Rolls-Royces, which shows status is far more important than function. 我认为问题相当清楚。 为什么我们总是如此个人化——几乎每件事都是？ 请你自己来回答这个问题。 为什么我们不能非个人地、不带偏见地看世界呢？ 为什么我们要通过工作职责，利用职责去谋取地位呢？拜托。 为什么我们不把工作职责……举例说， 讲话者有一些看法要表达，但是为什么他 ——假设他这么做了，但他其实并没这么做—— 为什么他要通过他的职责来谋取地位、职位和权力， 所有这些事——为什么？ 是不是因为权力为人们所尊崇， 地位远比职责重要得多 ——总理远比厨师重要得多， 教授远比 还要学习什么的人重要得多， 比木匠师傅重要，等等？你跟上了吗？ 很显然，我们并没有看到职责本身的重要性， 而如果你去利用职责谋取地位，那么你的职责就会变得很薄弱， 失去了它自身的活力。 你知道，现今——这其实是个老问题—— 职责——作为一名教师、一位大科学家、大政治家的职责—— 在全世界范围内，教师都不太受尊重， 然而，科学家、医生，我们就会对他们心怀仰慕。 但是，老师远比任何其他职业重要得多， 因为，老师会造就新一代的人， 他本应该获得最高的薪酬，但是我们并没这么做。 就我们来说，在我们一手建造的这个怪异的社会里， 教师是受到最少尊敬和最少重视的。 难道你没有注意到这一点、这一切吗？ 教师无法拥有一部凯迪拉克或者林肯，又或者劳斯莱斯车， 但是大的生意人却可以拥有， 而你敬重这些彰显身份的凯迪拉克、林肯、劳斯莱斯车， 远比敬重职责多得多。
27:23 Now, we all know this. Why? Why do we do this? That is the question. The questioner wants to know, why we human beings use function as a means to achieve a status – why? Is it not one of the reasons, that we worship success? That goddess of success. We are all trained. Every television and so on says you must succeed, succeed, succeed. Success means achieving a certain status. Not function, the honourable state of function in something for itself, but use the function to become something, which is, to be famous, to have a great – or whatever it is. Why do we do all this? You are doing it, sir, don’t... We are all doing it, except perhaps a few. Why do we do this? Is it we all want power, domination over others, more comfort through money? 这些我们都知道。 为什么，为什么我们会这么做？——这就是我们的问题。 提问者想知道， 为什么我们人类利用工作职责作为谋取地位的手段?为什么？ 原因之一难道不是——我们都推崇成功吗？ 将成功奉若神明。 我们都被洗过脑 ——所有的电视节目等等都说，你必须成功、成功、成功。 成功意味着获得某种地位。 我们不去推崇职责——职责本身就有着值得尊崇的地位—— 而是利用职责去有所成就， 也就是——去成名，去拥有很多……无论拥有什么。 我们为什么会这么做？你就是这么做的，先生，不是吗？ 我们都在这么做，也许少数人除外。 我们为什么这么做？ 是不是我们都想得到权力，都想控制他人， 都想通过金钱得到更多享受？
29:20 By the way, I don’t know if you have noticed, the world is becoming more and more, if I may use that word, materialistic. They all want to be more comfortable, more clothes, more houses, more money, do the same thing over and over again, the more of it, and that’s called culture. You follow all this, I wonder… It’s all becoming so terribly tragic. And why do we do all these things? Why do we want power? Because you see people in great power, what they are doing, influencing people, their name in the papers every morning, and we’d like to have our names in the paper every morning? Is it a form of deep frustrated urge to have a position, a status of respect, of looking up to, of authority? We all want that. So we use everything as a steppingstone to something else. 顺带提一下，我不知道你有没有注意过， 世界正变得越来越——请允许我用这个词——物质主义。 他们都想要更多的舒适、更多的衣服、房子、金钱， 反复不断地重复着这些事， 要得越来越多，而这被称为“文明”。 我不知道你是不是明白了这些？ 一切都变得如此可悲。 那么我们为什么要做这些事？我们为什么想要权力？ ——因为，你看到有人大权在握， 他们在做的事——影响着别人， 他们的名字每天早上都刊登在报纸上， 而我们也想自己的名字每天出现在报纸上。 是不是因为一种深受挫折的强烈欲望 ——想要拥有某个地位， 受人尊敬的地位，受人仰慕的地位，权威的地位？ 我们都想要这些。 因此，我们就利用一切作为成功的垫脚石。
31:20 You know, it is one of the most difficult things to be nothing. Because to be a successful person is the most respectable person. He is respected. But a human being who says, I don’t want any of these things, I’ll just live. I’ll be nothing in this world. That requires a great deal of inward stability, a light to oneself, capacity to stand completely alone. 你知道，成为无名小卒是最难的事情之一。 因为，成功人士是最受人景仰的人 ——他受人尊敬。 但有个人却说， “我完全不想成为那些人，我只是好好地生活， 在这个世界上做个无名小卒。” ——这需要内心极其的安稳， 做自己的明灯，有完全独立的能力。
32:19 Third Question: 'Is not political action necessary to bring about social change?' 第三个问题：难道不是需要政治上的行动才能带来全然的转变吗？
32:28 'Is not political action necessary to bring about total change?' 难道不是需要政治上的行动才能带来全然的转变吗？
32:39 Lots of things are implied in this question, as in every question. What are politics, what does the word mean? This art of government, science of government. That is, to govern people, because people are so dishonest, so wanting to do their own thing, each one wanting his own desires fulfilled, he wants to compete with others. You follow? All that. So people, ordinary human beings like all of us, are striving to express their own personal individual desires, which go against other people’s desires, ambitions, and so on. So we are, each one of us, is in opposition to another. And so the art of government is to rule the people, because the people are corrupt, people left to themselves are dangerous animals, therefore they must be controlled, they must be ruled, there must be law, and so on. This is what is happening in the world. Please see it for yourself. More laws, more policemen, greater armies, greater materials of war. So what does government mean? What is the art of government? 很多东西都隐含在了这个问题里——每个问题都是一样。 什么是“政治”，这个词是什么意思？ ——统治的艺术，管理的科学。 也就是——去管人，因为人都是这么地不正直， 都只想着做他们自己的事， 每个人都只想自己的欲望得以满足， 想和别人竞争。你跟上了吗？——这一切。 因此，人——就像我们一样的普通人， 都在努力地表达他自己个人特有的欲望 ——这些欲望又与他人的欲望和野心等等相悖。 因此我们——我们每个人都在和他人针锋相对。 因此，统治的艺术就是去管理人， 因为人心都很腐败， 如果听之任之，人类就会变成危险的猛兽， 因此，他们必须受到控制，必须受到管制， 必须要有法律，等等。 这就是世界上正在发生的事。 ——恳请你自己去看—— 越来越多的法律，越来越多的政客， 越来越庞大的军队，越来越丰富的战争物资。 因此，“政府”意味着什么？ “统治的艺术”是什么？
35:13 You know the meaning of the word ‘art’? Not the writing of poems, painting pictures, writing novels – art, the word, not the expression of that word. Art means to put everything in its right place. You understand? To put everything – every action, every thought, every human being has its own place. So, when we human beings have not this art in ourselves – you understand? No, sir, I don’t know if you do, please don’t agree. Art in the sense to put my house, my house which is me, in order. Then somebody else has to put that house in order. We have created this society, and we leave it to politicians to alter the society. We have created the monster called society, and to control that society we have to have politicians. Politicians may be either good or supported by the very, very rich people, of a small group of rich people supporting – you know all the game that goes on in the world among politicians. The speaker knows a considerable lot of them. And this is going on right throughout the world. That is, we want political leaders. This leader during this period is not good, but, when this election is over, we’ll have a new president, a new leader – I won’t call them presidents, sorry – new leader, and he too, or she too might fail, but we wait – another election. You follow? We have done this throughout the world, waiting for new leaders. The present leader is no good, but we hope the next leader will be better, and so on and on. This has been the game in all political world. Our desires are that. That is, we are always wanting somebody else to lead us, to tell us what to do. And there is no leader, no saviour, no guru, no book is going to help us. I think if one really deeply realises this – no outside agency, no change of environment, changing of certain structure of society is going to change the human condition. The human condition is what we are, and if we don’t apply ourselves to bring about a radical change, radical mutation, transformation, in ourselves, no leader, nobody in the world is going to do it. And we may search in vain for a new political leader, new statesman, new world leader. We’re waiting, creating a world still most chaotic, more than it is now. It is so terribly obvious to anybody who looks, thinks about all this, looks at all this. But apparently we are always wanting somebody to do something for us, psychologically, which is far more important. Because what the psychological state is, the outward state is. 你知道“艺术”这个词的意思吗？ ——并不是写诗、画画、写小说， “艺术”这个词并不是这个词的表现形式。 艺术意味着把一切都放在其正确的位置上。 ——你了解吗？—— 把一切——每个行动、每个思想、 每个人都放在其本该的位置上。 因此，当我们人类内心还没有这种艺术时 ——你了解吗？—— 不，先生，我不知道你是不是了解了，但是请不要同意我。 “艺术”的意思就是把自己的房子——我的房子也即我——收拾得井然有序， 然后其他人也必须把房子收拾好。 我们创造出了这个社会， 然后就把它扔给政客们去改变。 我们制造了这个叫作“社会”的怪物， 而要去控制这个社会，我们不得不求助于政客们。 政客们也许还不错， 也许是由非常非常富有的人扶持的， 一小群富有的人支持的 ——你知道政界里玩的所有把戏， 讲话者对这些知道得不少。 而这样的事在全世界都到处可见。 ——也就是，我们需要政治领导人， 这届的这个领导人不怎么样， 但是当这次选举结束时，我们就有了新任总统，新任领导人， ——我不会叫他们“总统”，对不起，还是叫新任领导人吧—— 他或者她或许也会败北， 但是，我们会期待下一届的选举——你跟上了吗？—— 我们在世界各地都一贯如此——巴望着新任领导人。 现任领导人很糟糕， 但是，我们期望下任领导人会好一些，等等。 这一直是整个政界玩的把戏。 我们就想要这样， 也就是，我们总想别人来领导我们， 告诉我们怎么做。 但是，没有领导人、没有救世主、没有古鲁，也没有书本能帮助我们。 我认为，如果我们真的很深刻地认识到了这点 ——没有外部的中介，也不存在外在环境的改变—— 改变社会的某种结构 是改变不了人类的现状的。 人类的现状就是我们真实的样子， 如果我们不致力于为我们内心带来一场彻底的转变、 彻底的突变以及革命， 那么，世界上没有哪个领导人、哪个人能帮我们做这件事。 而我们对于新一任的政治领导人， 新的政客、新世界领导人的寻找也许是白费力气。 我们在等待、制造的世界仍将是极其混乱的——比它的现状更甚。 这对于任何观察和思考这一切、 留意这一切的人来说，是极其明显的。 但是，很显然，我们总想有人来帮我们打点一切 ——心理上正是如此，而这要重要得多， 因为心理状态是什么样的，外部状态就会呈现出什么样。
41:00 So, having heard that, what are you going to do about it? Just listen? And say, very good, good idea. But it’s terribly difficult for me to change. Because I have not the energy, whatever is demanded I haven’t got it. So each one of us is so negligent, indifferent, accepting things as they are, and carrying on. So if we realise the world, the society, the wars, the nuclear bomb, all the horrible threats of the destructive thing called war, and if we realise that we are responsible for this, each one of us – a burning responsibility, not a verbal idealistic responsibility, a burning responsibility, a responsibility that demands an intense action in ourselves, not over somebody. Then perhaps there will be a possibility of a new society, a new group of human beings might bring about a different world. 所以，在听了这些后，你对此打算做什么？ ——就听吗？然后说，“很好，不错的想法， 但对我来说，改变是极其困难的， 因为我没有精力，无论改变需要的是什么，我都还没有。” 因此，我们每个人都是如此心不在焉、漠不关心 ——接受世界的现状，然后依然如故下去。 因此，如果我们认识到——这个世界、社会、战争、原子弹， 以及一切来自毁灭性的所谓“战争”的可怕威胁， 如果我们认识到我们，我们每个人对此都负有责任 ——一种迫切的责任感，而非一种口头上的、理想主义的责任感—— 一种迫切的责任感，一种内心热切需要 付诸行动的责任感——而不是仰赖他人， 那么，我们或许才有可能创造一个崭新的社会， 一群崭新的人也许才会造就一个截然不同的世界。
43:04 Fourth Question: 'Won’t we find the truth you speak of through loving service to humanity, through acts of love and compassion?' 第四个问题：是不是我们要发现你所说的真相， 就要通过以爱心服务于他人，通过爱和慈悲的行动才可以呢？
43:17 Oh, this is a lovely question! 'Won’t we find the truth you speak of through loving service to humanity, through acts of love and compassion?' 哦，这是个很有意思的问题！ 是不是我们要发现你所说的真相， 就要通过以爱心服务于他人，通过爱和慈悲的行动才可以呢？
43:35 The do-gooders are always helping society, the poor, devoting their life to poverty and helping others to accept the poverty or to move out of that poverty. This is going on, recognised by religious people as a great act, making them into saints. You know all this, you read about it almost every day in the papers. The missionaries that go out. It’s all so ridiculous! 社会改良家们一直都在帮助社会，帮助穷人， 毕生奉献给贫困问题，帮助他人去接受贫困 或者脱离贫困。 这一直都在进行着——这被宗教人士认定为了不起的行动， 使他们成了圣人。 你知道这一切——你几乎每天都能在报纸上看到这些， 外出行善的传教士们——这些都是如此荒谬！
44:29 Now, the questioner says, through acts of love, compassion, service, do we find that truth which is not yours or mine or doesn’t belong to any religion? Now, do you love? Do you have compassion? Do you want to help or serve another? When you set out to serve another, to help another, it means you know much better than the other fellow does. I think there is a great deal of vanity in all this, in the name of service, in the name of love. Don’t you think so? A great deal of self-expression. I want to fulfil myself through various activities, maybe service, maybe that which is called love, or through what we call love and compassion. Isn’t it natural and a healthy indication to help another? That’s natural. Why do we make a dance and a song about it? 现在，提问者问： 通过爱心行动、慈悲和为他人服务， 我们能不能发现真理？——而真理不属于你，不属于我， 也不属于任何宗教。 然而，你有爱吗？ 你有慈悲吗？ 你想帮助他人或者为他人服务吗？ 当你开始为他人服务，帮助他人， 也就意味着你知道的远超过其他人。 我认为这一切当中有着极大的虚荣心， ——以服务的名义，以爱的名义。 难道你不这么认为吗？ ——有一种极强的自我表现。 我想通过各种活动来实现我自己 ——也许是服务他人，也许是所谓的“爱”， 又或者是通过我们所说的“爱和慈悲”。 帮助他人难道不是一种很自然、很健康的表现吗？ 它是一件很自然的事。 我们又为何要为此大张旗鼓呢？
46:34 And compassion, what is it, what does that mean? The meaning of that word: passion for all, feeling deep passion for all. That means that feeling of great intensity, not to kill another human being, not to kill a living thing. Then you will say, when you kill a cabbage, that’s to kill something. So, where do you draw the line? To kill a human being? To kill a baby seal? To kill your enemy, who is aggressive, as you yourself have been aggressive last year? 而慈悲 ——什么是慈悲，它是什么意思？ 这个词的意思： 对一切热爱， 对一切都感到深深的热爱。 这意味着一种极其热烈的感情 ——不杀害他人，不杀生。 然后你会说，当你吃一颗卷心菜时，就是在杀生。 因此，你要怎么划定这个界限呢？ ——杀害人？杀害一只小海豹？ 杀害你的敌人——他很好斗， 就像你自己去年也很好斗一样？
48:14 So, can compassion exist, love exist when there is no… when there is antagonism, when there is competition, when each one of us is seeking success? Go into all this, sirs. 因此，慈悲能不能，爱能不能存在，——当没有了 ——当有敌意，当有竞争， 当我们每个人都在追求成功？请去探究这一切，先生们。
48:48 So, in having self-knowing – let’s put it this way – in knowing myself, which is knowing the content of my consciousness, which is myself, the content: the beliefs, the antagonisms, the agony, the loneliness, the suffering, the pain, desire to be secure – all that and more is my consciousness. Without knowing that, understanding the whole conflicting, destructive combination which is my consciousness, how can I love? How can I have that thing called compassion? So to know, to understand oneself – not the improvement of the self which is merely the improvement of my selfishness, which can be marvellous if you want that kind of thing – the understanding of myself, the understanding of my reactions, the way I think, why do I, you know, the whole movement of myself. The Greeks, the ancient Greeks, and the ancient Hindus, talked about ‘know thyself’. But very few people have really studied themselves. They have studied the animals: rats, guinea pigs, dogs, monkeys, vivisection – you know all that, what is happening – and through them they hope to understand themselves. They talk about behaviour but they never study themselves. We are the greatest experimenters, if we are, in ourselves. 因此，在自知中——让我们这样说吧——在对我自己的了解中， 也就是了解我意识的内容， 也就是我自己，这些内容就是：信念、敌意、苦恼、 孤独、苦难、痛苦、渴求安全 ——这一切都是我的意识。 没有了解这一切，没有了解整体的冲突， 没有了解这具破坏性的混合体——也就是我的意识—— 我怎么可能去爱呢？ 我们怎么能拥有那被称为”慈悲”的东西呢？ 因此，去认识自己、了解自己， 并非改善自我 ——那只是改善自己的自我中心罢了， 尽管也可以做到不可思议，如果你想要那种东西的话—— 而是去了解我自己，了解我所有的反应， 我思考的方式，为何我这么做——了解我自己的整个活动。 希腊人，古希腊人，以及古印度人 说，认识你自己， 但是，极少有人真的研究过他们自己。 他们一直研究动物： 老鼠、天竺鼠、狗、猴子、活体解剖 ——你知道发生的所有这些事—— 通过它们，人们希望了解自己。 他们高谈阔论行为问题，但是却从不研究自己。 我们自己才是最主要的实验者，如果要研究自己的话。
51:25 And to know oneself is to understand, look in the mirror of our relationship. I can’t know myself just by thinking about myself, whether I am this, whether I am that. But understanding myself is revealed in my relationship to my wife, to my children, to my neighbour, to governments, to everything. I see myself as I am, not as I would like to be, but actually as I am. Then, there is a possibility of seeing what actually is, there is a possibility of changing that, of bringing about transformation in that. But we never study ourselves. We are always studying books, and the books tell us what we are, and trying to adjust ourselves to what others have told us. What others have told us is what we are, so why do we have to be told by others what we are? Do you understand all this? Because we want to be quite certain that what we study is accurate. So we turn to others. We make mistakes, we say, this is right, this is wrong, I did this, but there is this constant alert… awareness of one’s reaction in one’s relationship. That requires attention, a great deal of sensitivity. And to be physically sensitive, not be drugged, not take alcohol, smoke – how can you be sensitive? So, compassion, love can only exist when the self is not. As we said the other day, when you are not, that which is immense is. 而了解自己就是 通过我们的关系这面镜子去了解、去看。 我们无法仅仅通过思考自己来了解自己 ——我是不是这样的，我是不是那样的。 但是，我能明白， 自我可以在关系中被揭露出来——我和我的妻子、 孩子、邻居、政府以及一切的关系。 我如实地看到了自己——不是我想要的样子，而是我实际的样子， 那么，才有可能看到真实的状况， 才有可能去改变它， 才有可能带来转变。 但是，我们从不研究自己， 我们总是去研究书本，由书本来告诉我们自己的样子， 然后努力去依照别人告诉我们的东西来调整自己。 别人告诉我们的，不过是我们实际的样子， 因此，我们又何劳别人来告诉我们呢？ ——你了解这一切吗？ 因为我们都想十分确定我们所研究的东西是正确无误的， 因此，我们就求助于他人。 我们犯了错，就只会说，“这是对的，这是错的，我这么做了”， 但是，也存在着这种持续的警觉 ——觉知我们在关系之中的反应。 这需要关注力——一种极高的敏感度。 身体上要变得敏感，不嗑药，不酗酒、不抽烟 ——否则你怎能敏感呢？ 因此，慈悲、爱只能存在于自我不存在的时候。 就如我们几天前说的，当你不在时，那无限者就会存在。
54:08 Do you want to go on? I can go on, but can you? 你们要继续吗？ 我可以继续，你们呢？
54:25 Fifth Question: 'Do levels of spirituality or consciousness exist? What part do psychic healing, astral projection, the ability to see auras and entities, etc., play in all this? And can these interfere with relationship and our abilities to see clearly?' Good God! 第五个问题：灵性层次或者意识层次存在吗？ 超自然治疗、灵魂出窍、 有能力看到灵光和某些存在等等，它们在这一切中扮演了什么角色？ 这些会不会干扰我们的关系 以及我们清楚地去看的能力呢？天哪！
55:11 'Do levels of spirituality or consciousness exist? What part do psychic healing, astral projection, the ability to see auras and entities, etc., play in all this? And can these interfere with relationship and our abilities to see clearly?' 灵性层次或者意识层次存在吗？ 超自然治疗、灵魂出窍、 有能力看到灵光和某些存在等等，它们在这一切中扮演了什么角色？ 这些会不会干扰我们的关系 以及我们清楚地去看的能力呢？
55:51 I don’t know quite how to answer this. First of all, the first question in this is, do levels of spirituality or levels in consciousness exist? That is, is one more spiritual than the other? You understand? The more. That is, is one nearer truth than the other fellow? Now, what is the meaning of the word ‘more’? ‘The more’ is a measurement, isn’t it? I am this, I will be more rich tomorrow. Or I am violent now, but I will not be violent in another week’s time. So the mind is always measuring – I am tall, you are short, you are fair, somebody is black, somebody is yellow, somebody is pink – measurement. That is, measurement is comparison. And the word ‘measure’ also plays part in meditation. Measurement and meditation are related. Please, this is very important if you want to understand this. Why do human beings measure? Not for clothes, I’m not talking about that. Psychologically, inwardly, why do we want to measure ourselves with somebody? That is, the measurement of ‘what is’ towards ‘what should be’. You follow this? I am not good today, but give me time, I will be good. Which is, the allowing of a time interval is the measure. You follow this? Are we together in this? When I have the concept of psychological time, that time implies measurement. You get this? 我不太知道如何回答这个问题。 首先，其中的第一个问题是， 灵性层次或者意识层次存在吗？ 也就是，这个人是不是比那个人更有灵性？ 你了解吗？——更加。 也就是说，这个人是不是比另一个家伙更接近真理？ 那么，“更加”这个词是什么意思？ “更加”是一种衡量，不是吗？ 我现在是这样的，而明天我会更富有， 或者，我现在很暴力，但是，再过一周的时间，我就不会暴力了。 因此，心智总是在衡量 ——我很高，你很矮，你很白， 某人是黑皮肤，某人是黄皮肤， 某人是粉色皮肤——衡量。 这也就是说，衡量就是比较。 而“衡量”这个词也掺和在冥想之中， 衡量和冥想是相关连的。 恳请你，这非常重要，如果你想要了解这些的话。 人为什么要去衡量？ 并非指衣服——我并不是在谈论那个。 心理上、内在， 我们为何要拿别人来衡量自己？ 也就是说，衡量“真实的样子”和“应该的样子”？ 你跟上了吗？ 我今天不是很好，但是请给我点时间，我会变好的。 也就是，允许时间间隔的存在就是衡量。 你跟上这些了吗？我们达成共识了吗？ 当我有了心理时间的概念，我必然会 这个时间就意味着衡量——你明白了吗？
59:10 So, the questioner says, is there in spirituality – whatever that word may mean, for the moment we are using the ordinary sense of that word, the accepted sense of that word – is there in spirituality a measurement? Where there is measurement, there is no spirituality. Right? A guru, a bishop and so on and so on, there is this concept, this idea that someone is nearer god, nearer truth – I don’t mean god, nearer truth. And he has achieved something, and I have to achieve that, and to achieve that I must have time and I must measure myself every day. Right? And this is obviously so utterly mundane, utterly physical. That is, I am a clerk in an office, and perhaps next year I’ll be a superior clerk and ten years later I will be executive. It is the same movement carried over into the psychological area. And so there is the nearest disciple and the noviciate right there. There is a monastery in Italy – the speaker used to go and visit it – where the noviciate waited for nine years. You understand? After nine years he was allowed to go into the inner sanctuary. There is a perfect measurement. And that is called spiritual growth. 因此，提问者问，灵性之中是不是存在 ——无论“灵性”这个词是什么意思， 我们暂时就使用这个词的普通定义， 这个词公认的意思—— 灵性之中是不是存在衡量标准？ 当有衡量标准时，就不存在灵性了，对吗？ 有古鲁，主教等等这些人， ——有种概念、观念认为：有人更接近上帝，更接近真理， ——是更接近“上帝”，我不会说更接近真理—— 他已经有所成就，而我也一定要修炼成那样， 而要修炼成那样，我必定需要时间， 并且肯定每天都要衡量自己，对吗？ 显然这完全是很世俗、很物质的。 这就好比说，我在办公室里是个普通职员， 也许明年我会晋升为高级职员， 第四年我将会成为……十年后我将会成为经理。 同样的运动被转移到了心理领域， 因此，那里就有最接近上帝的门徒和见习修士。 在意大利有一所修道院，讲话者曾经去那里参观过， 在那里见习修士要等九年——你了解吗？ 九年后，他才可以得到允许进入到内部的圣堂。 这里有一种极致的衡量标准， 而这被称作灵性成长。
1:01:53 And the questioner asks also, are there levels in consciousness? That is, there is unconscious and the conscious. Right? This is how we have divided consciousness – the hidden and the obvious, the thing that is dark and the thing that is light. We have divided consciousness that way. And in that consciousness there are several divisions. Now, to the speaker, consciousness is whole. It cannot be divided. Please see why. If there is consciousness, which is to be fully awake, then there is nothing hidden. You understand? I wonder if – no please, don’t agree to this so quickly! Go into it carefully. Freud and all those gentlemen, professionals, have divided this, our consciousness, into various categories. And we poor laymen, not knowing, we accept all this. But as the speaker and many people do not read all this, perhaps they have studied their own states, one can see very clearly when one is conscious of something, either you are conscious fully or very, very partially, as most of us are. When you look at this marvellous country – the hills, the trees, the light and the shadows – when you are completely aware of all this, there is no hidden shadows in your own mind. So if one is completely aware of oneself, there is no division between higher consciousness and lower consciousness. It is consciousness with all its content. One can divide: belief in some sacred thing is higher than my sexual or sensory responses, but it’s part of my consciousness, which I have divided for some pleasurable reasons or for some desire to achieve something. Or it’s a pattern which I have accepted as measurement, and I measure myself. This is better than this, this is nobler than this. But it is part of this consciousness. Now, is there... No, sorry. Can my unconscious, that is the deep – please listen to this – the deep undiscovered traces of fear exist when I have gone into the whole movement of fear? You understand my question? I have examined fear, and the causes of fear, because the mind has realised that any form of fear, hidden, secret, personal or physical and so on, any form of fear is destructive. The mind has realised this, not verbally, but actually. So, it is concerned completely with the freedom of fear, freedom from total fear, not partial fear. So, it is willing, it is open to all the hidden movements of fear to reveal itself through dreams, through acts, through various forms of... You know, when you are walking by yourself in a wood or on the road, suddenly you realise there is a movement of fear, unconscious, which you have not realised before, which means your mind is open to the revelation of your own fears. That requires a great deal of enquiry into the nature of fear, which we did last few days ago. So the hidden dark fears that are in the deep recesses of one’s consciousness, in the mind, can come out, expose naturally if one is insistent, urgent, that there must be freedom from total fear. You are following all this? The very necessity of being free of fear brings about the total exposure of all fear. That demands watchfulness, sensitivity to be alert to every kind of feeling, nuances of feeling, the subtleties of reactions. 发问者还问——意识是不是存在层次之分？ 也就是说——存在潜意识和意识——对吗？ 这就说明，我们是如何将意识划分成了 ——隐藏的意识和显性的意识， 黑暗的事物以及光明的事物。 我们已经将意识作了这样的划分， 在这样的意识之中就存在着多个部分。 而在讲话者看来，意识是整体的， 它无法被划分。 恳请你看看为什么。 如果存在完全觉醒的意识， 那么，也就不存在隐藏的东西，你明白吗？ 我不知道是不是——不，恳请你，不要这么快就赞同！ 请认真地探究它。 弗洛伊德以及所有那些先生们、专家们，将我们的意识划分 成了不同的类别。 而我们这些可怜的外行，既然不懂，就只能全盘接受。 但是，因为讲话者和不少人并没有看过那些书， 他们可能只是研究了自己的状态 ——当你意识到某件事时，你是可以很清晰地看到它的， 无论你是全部意识到， 还是非常，非常局部地意识到——就像我们大多数人那样。 当你欣赏这个美丽无比的村庄 ——欣赏这些山丘、树木、光影—— 当你全然地觉知这一切， 你自己的头脑里就不会留有一丝隐藏的阴影。 因此，如果我们全然地觉知我们自己的内心， 那么也就不存在较高意识和较低意识之间的划分 ——它就是有着它自己全部内容的意识而已。 我们可能会有所划分：信仰某种神圣的东西要比 性反应或者感官反应高尚， 但那也是我意识的一部分 ——我已经把自己的意识作了划分，为了一些愉悦的理由， 或者为了有所成就的欲望， 又或者，它是种模式，我采用这种模式作为衡量标准， 然后衡量自己 ——这比那更好，这比那更高贵。 但这只是意识的一部分而已。那么，是不是存在一种……对不起。 我的潜意识，也就是深藏的——恳请你好好听—— 深藏的、未被发觉的恐惧的痕迹， 当我深入探究恐惧的整个运动时，它还会存在吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我已经研究了恐惧，以及恐惧的根源， 因为，心智已经认识到任何形式的恐惧 ——隐藏的、秘密的、个人的或者身体上的，等等—— 任何形式的恐惧都具有破坏性。 心智认识到了这点，不是口头上，而是真正认识到了， 因此，它关心的是彻底地从恐惧中解脱出来， 从所有的恐惧中解脱出来，而不是局部的恐惧。 因此，它愿意揭露自己， 对隐藏着的恐惧的全部活动都保持开放 ——通过梦境、通过各种形式的 你知道，当你独自漫步于一片树林或者走在路上， 突然之间，你觉察到内心有一种恐惧的活动——下意识的， 这是你以前没有意识到的， 这意味着你的心智对揭露自己的各种恐惧是开放的。 这需要对恐惧的本质作大量的探究 ——我们几天前探讨过了。 因此，藏在我们的意识、心灵深处的 那些隐秘黑暗的恐惧 可以很自然地显露、揭露出来，如果我们很迫切、很热切地 坚持必须从所有恐惧中解脱出来。 这些你都跟上了吗？ 正是这种对摆脱恐惧的迫切需求 彻底地揭露了所有的恐惧。 这需要警觉性， 对每种感觉、 感觉的细微差别，以及各种微妙的反应都敏感。
1:09:11 So, as long as there is measurement, there must be division, both in consciousness and in so-called spirituality. 因此，只要存在衡量，就必定存在划分 ——既包括在意识之中，也包括在所谓的“灵性”之中。
1:09:24 What part do psychic healing, astral projection, the ability to see – blah, blah – play in all this and can these interfere with relationship and our abilities to see clearly? 超自然治疗、灵魂出窍、 有能力看到什么啊之类的，它们在这一切中有什么作用？ 这些会不会干扰我们的人际关系， 以及我们清楚地去看的能力呢？
1:09:47 How does one answer this question? What prevents a human being from seeing clearly? Seeing not optically – inward, seeing things as they are, very clearly, without any distortion. Outside agency, astral projections, imagination, prejudice, bias, conclusions which you hold on to, experiences which you think are important – aren’t these obvious facts that prevent clarity of perception? Why don’t we go into those rather than into astral projections? 我要怎么回答这个问题呢？ 是什么阻碍了一个人去看清？ ——不是指视力上的看，而是从内在，看到事物真实的样子， 清清楚楚地看，没有丝毫扭曲。 外部的中介、灵魂出窍、 幻想、成见、 偏见、你紧抓不放的论断、 你自认为很重要的经验， ——难道不正是这些阻碍了清明的觉察吗？ 为什么我们不去探究这些却要去研究灵魂出窍呢？
1:11:06 You know that word, ‘astral projection’ is – I won’t go into that, sorry. 你知道这个词——“灵魂出窍”是 我不会去探究这个，对不起。
1:11:17 Psychic healing. One can heal only when there is no self. You understand this? But self is so deceptive, so cunning, that it hides behind all kinds of manner. Suppose I am a devout religious person attached to some form of symbol or idea, a projection. And that projection is me, greater, nobler, is the highest form, I am still selfish, I am still me, only glorified. As long as there is any sense of the self, healing becomes rather tawdry. But when there is no self at all there is a possibility of healing. 超自然治疗—— 只有当自我不存在时，你才可以去治疗， 你明白吗？ 但是，自我是如此地带有欺骗性、如此地狡猾， 它隐藏在各种形式背后。 假设我是个虔诚的宗教人士， 执着于某种形式的符号或者观念——一种投射， 而这种投射就是“我”——更伟大、更高尚的我，是最高的形式， 但我仍然是自私的，我仍然是我，只是被美化了。 只要存在任何的自我感， 治疗就会变得相当地廉价。 而当自我根本不存在时，才可能去治疗。
1:13:00 It’s an hour and a quarter we have talked. Is that enough? 我们已经谈了一个小时一刻钟了，够了吗？
1:13:07 Q: No. 问：不够。
1:13:23 K: One more question, that’ll be enough, I think. 克：我认为再讲一个问题就差不多了。
1:13:27 Sixth Question: 'What is it in humanity that has always moved towards something called religion or God? Is it only a projection as a result of fear and suffering, a seeking for help, or is it something deeply real, necessary, intelligent?' 第六个问题：我们本性之中的什么一直以来都在朝着 被称为“宗教”或者“上帝”的东西靠拢呢？ 这仅仅只是种投射， 是由于恐惧和痛苦而寻求帮助的结果， 还是，这是种非常真实、必要以及智慧的东西呢？
1:13:54 'What is it in humanity that has always moved towards something called religion or God? Is it only a projection as a result of fear and suffering, a seeking for help, or is it something deeply real, necessary, intelligent?' 我们本性之中的什么一直以来都在朝着 被称为“宗教”或者“上帝”的东西靠拢呢？ 这仅仅只是种投射， 是由于恐惧和痛苦而寻求帮助的结果， 还是，这是种非常真实、必要以及智慧的东西呢？
1:14:38 As the questioner points out, historically and actually man has always sought something beyond himself. Man has always said, this is not enough. I have my food, clothes, shelter, I live in this world, I die, but there must be something more. I am sure every human being, at least who is alert, who is fairly intelligent, must have asked this question. Even the committed Communist must have asked, is this all? Is this suffering, pain, and nothing more? And as the questioner says, does fear make us invent something, an outside agency that will protect us, guard us. So we want to go into this question very deeply. 正如提问者所指出的，无论过去还是现在， 人们一直都在追寻超越他自己之上的东西。 人们总说，“这样不够 ——我有吃、有穿、有住，我来到这世上，然后死去， 但必定存在不止于此的东西。” 我相信，每个人——至少是警醒的人， 相当智慧的人，肯定问过这个问题。 甚至忠诚的共产主义者也肯定问过——就是这样吗？ 只是这些苦难、痛苦，就没有别的了吗？ 正如提问者所说的， 是不是恐惧使我们发明了某物 ——一种外部的中介，它会保护我们、会守护我们。 因此，我们想很深入地探究一下这个问题。
1:16:21 When there is no fear whatsoever psychologically – whatsoever – what is the state of your mind? Please go, enquire together – what is the state of mind that is totally, completely free from all fear? Will it seek any… will it have any desire to protect itself? Will it have any need or necessity to seek something to which it can pray, worship, or ask help? You understand? When you are perfectly healthy, physically, would you go near a doctor? Would you study all the diet books? See every morning the expert doing exercises on the television? Similarly, a very, tremendously healthy mind – healthy in the sense, having no fear, completely no fear, end to sorrow. The understanding of the whole movement of pleasure – you follow? Healthy, sane, rational mind. Will it need to go to any church? Go on, sir, answer it for yourself. It’s only the mind that is crippled, conditioned, unhealthy, fearful, aching, lonely, deeply sorrowful, wants naturally some help. And so it projects gods, saviours, the whole religious circle. But that suffering, that loneliness, that fear, he has not been able to solve, he hasn’t gone into it. And we have had saviours, we have had leaders, we have had every kind of help in the world – all the evangelists, all the preachers, you know what goes on. They have not freed man from this ache. 当心理上完全没有任何恐惧时， 你的心灵会处在什么样的状态？ 恳请你一起来探究—— 全然地、 彻底地摆脱了所有恐惧的心灵是什么样的状态？ 它还会有所追寻吗？它还会有任何保护自己的欲望吗？ 它还会有任何需要或者需求去追寻某物—— 用以祈求、祭拜，或者寻求帮助吗？ 你明白吗？ 当你的身体非常健康时， 你还会接近医生吗？ 你还会去研究各类饮食的书籍吗？ 还会每天早上去看电视上的健身专家们做运动吗？ 同样地，一个极其健康的心灵 ——“健康”的意思就是没有恐惧，完全没有恐惧—— 就会终止悲伤。 明白了寻求快感的所有活动——你跟上了吗？—— 健康、健全、理性的心智， 它还有必要去任何教堂吗？继续，先生，你自己来回答。 只有受创、受限、不健康、恐惧、 痛苦、孤独、极其悲伤的心灵才会理所当然地寻求帮助。 因此它投射出了上帝、救世主以及整个宗教界。 但是，对那些苦难、孤独、恐惧， 他却未能解决，也没有探究过。 我们有各种救世主，我们有各种领袖， 我们这个世界上有各种帮助 ——所有的传教士、所有的牧师、所有的 你知道发生的这些。 他们并没有使人类从这种痛苦中解脱出来。
1:20:08 So, the question is really, can we be a light to ourselves? Not depend psychologically on anyone. Action that will not breed conflict, regret, sorrow, pain, inwardly. You understand? Can we understand ourselves so completely? Or is that not possible. We have never tried. We have tried everything else, we have gone to the moon, invented most marvellous machines, extraordinary surgical instruments. The brain has got extraordinary capacity, but that capacity we have never applied to ourselves. Because we have always asked for someone else to help us – that’s what you are doing here, now. The speaker is not helping you, he is not teaching you. We are saying look at yourself. 因此，真正的问题是——我们能不能做自己的明灯？ 在心理上不依赖任何人， 带来不会导致冲突、悔恨、 悲伤和痛苦的行动。 ——你了解吗？—— 我们能不能这么完全地了解自己呢？ 还是说这是不可能的？ 我们从未尝试过。 我们尝试了其他的一切——我们登陆月球， 发明了各种最不可思议的机器，各种非凡复杂的手术仪器。 我们拥有……大脑拥有了非凡的能力， 但是，我们从未将这种能力应用于我们自己身上。 因为，我们一直都在向别人求助， 这也正是你现在所做的。 可讲话者不是在帮助你，他也不是在教你， 我们说的是去观察自己。
1:22:06 We have got the capacity, the energy, sufficient intelligence to go into ourselves, look at ourselves, face ourselves – never escaping from ourselves. We have got all the energy to do that. Think what energy is needed to go to the moon – you understand, sir? – enormous co-operative energy, drive. But apparently when it comes to us we kind of become slack, we wither, and we hope somebody will give us water that will bring us again to health. Nobody is going to give it to you. That’s one absolute fact, irrefutable fact. Because we have had leaders, we have had teachers, we have had saviours, we have had every kind of outside agency, infinite information about ourselves from others. And all that has not freed us from fear. And so, out of our laziness, out of our indifference, out of our callousness, we invent gods and all the rest of it. And the misfortune is, because we don’t know ourselves we are destroying other human beings. We’re destroying this marvellous earth. 我们拥有这种能力、这种能量， 有足够的智慧去探究我们自己，去看我们自己， 去面对我们自己——绝不逃避自己。 我们是拥有这么做的能量的。 想想登陆月球需要什么能量——你了解吗，先生？—— 合作的巨大能量、动力。 但是，很显然，轮到探究我们自身时，我们就变得有些散漫懈怠， 我们干枯了，希望有人会带给我们 让我们再次恢复健康的泉水。 没有人会给你泉水 ——这是个绝对的事实，无可辩驳的事实。 因为我们已经有了各种领袖，已经有了各种上师， 我们也已经有了救世主，也有了各种外部的中介， 我们从他人那里得到了无数关于我们自己的信息， 而这一切并没有使我们从恐惧中解脱出来。 因此，由于我们的懒散，由于我们的漠不关心， 由于我们的麻木不仁，我们发明出了上帝等诸如此类的一切。 而不幸的是， 因为我们并不了解自己，我们正在摧毁他人， 我们正在摧毁这美妙的地球，
1:24:15 Right, sir. 好了，先生。
1:24:28 May I get up now? 我现在可以起身了吗？