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OJ82T2 - 知识在我们的生活中有何地位?
第二次公开讲话
美国,加州,欧亥
1982年5月2日



1:10 May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday morning? For those who were not here yesterday, may we repeat something of what we said? We were saying yesterday morning how the world is broken up, divided through nationalism, which is really a form of tribalism. How religions have divided man, with their dogmas, with their beliefs, with their superstitions, illusions; how human beings have created sects, each one believing that they are going to lead mankind to a different kind of physical world and a so-called spiritual world. There have been various gurus, both in the West and in the East, with their peculiar beliefs and meditations and all that business. It is really a good business! And also how man has created armies and all the implements of war to destroy each other in the name of their country, honour, prestige, freedom – anything, an idea – to destroy each other. And also ideologically man again has divided himself as the totalitarians and the democratic group. While in one country there is absolutely no freedom – it is like living in a prison – and the others are free to do what they want to do. And also man had divided himself with his beliefs. Take in this little valley, if you observe, or if you have gone around, there are so many little sects, so many different congregations, different beliefs, different ideals, different prejudices, bias, and so on. They represent the world, which is similar, with their bias, conclusions, ideals, faiths, following this person and worshipping that person, that symbol or another kind of symbol in the East or in the West. Wherever you go you see this extraordinary phenomenon, that man, throughout his life, not only has broken the earth – the American earth, the English earth, the French and the Russian and the Asiatic world – but whatever he has touched has brought about misery. And also technologically, he has brought about great benefits. Technologically also, he has created wars. 我们可以继续昨天上午所谈的话题吗? 为了照顾那些昨天没来这里的人, 我们是否可以复述一下之前说过的内容? 昨天早上我们说到了这个世界是如何变得支离破碎的, 被国家主义所分裂 ——国家主义实际上就是一种部落主义; 宗教是如何分裂人类的 ——用它们的教条,用它们的信仰, 用它们的迷信、幻想来分裂人类; 人类是如何创造出各种教派的, 每一个教派都相信它们将会领导人类 达到一个完全不同的物质世界和一个所谓的“精神世界”。 我们有着各种各样的古鲁,不管是在西方还是在东方, 他们有着自己特殊的信仰和冥想手段,所有这些把戏。 这真是一门不错的生意!(笑声) 我们同样谈到了人类是如何创造出了军队 和所有的战争工具 来摧毁彼此的——以他们国家的名义, 以荣誉、威望和自由的名义 ——以任何事物的名义,比如一个理念——来彼此摧毁。 同样在意识形态上,人类也划分了他自己, 划分成极权主义者和民主政治团体。 当在一个国家里没有丝毫的自由时 ——那就像生活在一个监狱里, 在其他的国家里却可以自由地为所欲为。 人类同样也用各自的信仰分裂了自己。 就拿这小小的山谷地区来看, 如果你观察一下,或者如果你四处逛一下, 你会发现有如此多的小教派, 如此多的不同的圣会,不同的信仰, 不同的理想,不同的成见、偏见等等。 它们就代表了这个世界——这个世界和它是很相似的, 人们有着各自的偏见、结论、理想、信念, 跟随这个人物、崇拜那个人物, 东方或者西方的这类或者那类符号。 无论你走到哪里,都会看到这种奇特的现象, 那就是人类终其一生 所分裂的并不只是这个地球的土地 ——美国的土地、英国的土地, 法国的、俄国的和亚洲的区域; 任何他所触及的东西都带来了不幸。 同时,在技术上,他带来了巨大的效益。 而在技术上,他也制造出了战争。
6:11 And so we were saying yesterday the scientists have not helped man; he has helped him technologically but also he has helped to bring further wars – the atomic bomb and the conventional war. So the scientists have not basically, fundamentally brought about a mutation in man’s conditioning. Nor the politicians, nor the religious leaders, the organised belief, the organised faith, the organised, conventional worship of a symbol, of a person, of a saviour. None of those people have helped man to end his sorrow, his loneliness, his despair and anxiety, nor local priests nor the gurus. Apparently throughout the ages man has been led. There have always been political leaders, religious leaders, and of course national heroes – who kill the most. 因此我们昨天说, 科学家们并没有帮到人类; 他在技术上帮助了人类, 但他同样也帮忙助长了战争 ——原子弹和常规战争。 所以科学家们并没有从根本上、实质上 转变人类的状况 ——政治家也没有, 也包括宗教领袖、组织化的信仰、 组织化的信念, 那种组织化的、传统的对某个象征符号、 某个人、某个救世主的崇拜。 但这些人中没有一个帮助人类终结了他的悲伤、 他的孤独、他的绝望和焦虑, 也没有任何当地的牧师或者古鲁能有所帮助。 很显然,无数世纪以来人类一直在被引导着。 我们一直有着政治领袖、宗教领袖, 当然了,还有那些民族英雄——那些杀敌人杀得最多的人。
8:10 And observing all this, which is not a Western phenomenon, but also in the Asiatic world, observing all this, if one is at all serious, if one is at all concerned with man’s mind, his heart, his whole existence, he must either escape from it all through another form of isolation, commune, or become a monk or escape through some form of entertainment, amusement. Or, if he is at all serious, he has to answer for all this, he is responsible for all this. I do not know how serious the listeners are, but if you are serious, what is your responsibility towards all this? How far will you go in your responsibility, how deeply, how widely? Or limit oneself to one’s own little life, one’s own little experience, pleasures, and forget the vast human suffering, poverty – not be concerned or be concerned with one particular type of war, or be concerned with the ending of all wars, not only outward war but also the inward struggle of man, his eternal conflict within himself and with his fellow man. This has been the history of man. Thousands and thousands of years of evolution, man still remains as he was, probably a little modified, but basically he is cruel, violent, antagonistic, competitive, and so on. 观察到所有这一切后 ——这并不是西方世界的现象,同样也存在于亚洲地区, 看到这一切后, 如果一个人真的很认真, 如果一个人真的关心人类的心智, 关注他的心灵、他全部的存在, 那么他必然会 要么通过另一种孤立的形式——即公社——来逃避这一切, 要么变成一个僧侣, 或者通过某种娱乐、消遣来逃避。 或者,如果他真的很认真,他就必须解答所有这一切, 他要对这一切负责。 我不知道这里的听众认真程度如何, 但如果你是认真的,你对这一切的责任是什么? 你的责任能尽到多远、 多深、多广? 还是让自己局限在自己渺小的生活里, 局限在自己那卑微的经验和欢愉中, 而忘记了全人类那巨大痛苦与贫穷 ——对它们漠不关心, 或者关心的只是某一类特定的战争, 还是关心去结束所有的战争 ——不只是外在的战争,还包括人类内心的斗争, 他自己内在的,以及和他同伴的无尽冲突。 这就是人类的历史。 经过了成千上万年的进化, 人类仍旧和从前一样——或许稍稍,有了一点点的改进, 但是从根本上说,他还是残忍的、暴力的、 对立的、竞争的,等等。
11:40 And, as we were saying yesterday also, each one of us thinks we are independent individuals with his own narrow problems and limited points of view. But when one begins to enquire deeply, as we are doing now, and I hope we can do this together, when we are enquiring deeply why human beings, after so many million years, why have we become like this – divided, fragmented, contradictory, confused, everlastingly seeking pleasure, never ending his sorrow, never comprehending his relationship to the world and to each other – why there is this infinite conflict between man and man. 而且,就如我们昨天所说的, 我们每个人都认为自己是独立的个体, 有着各自狭隘的问题和局限的观点。 然而当我们开始去深刻地质询——就像我们现在所做的一样, 并且我希望我们可以一起来做这件事—— 当我们深刻地去质询 为什么人类在经过了数百万年后, 会变成这个样子 ——分裂、破碎、矛盾、困惑, 不停地寻求欢愉,却从未结束自己的悲伤, 也从未能理解自己与这个世界以及他人的关系; 为什么人与人之间会有这种无止尽的冲突。
13:23 We were saying also yesterday morning that our consciousness – that is, what you are, what you think, what you feel, your reactions, your beliefs, your conclusions, your experiences, your knowledge, your fears, anxieties, loneliness, despair and sorrow and the fear of death – is common to all mankind. Wherever you go, man is conditioned to this state. Wherever you live, whether in the affluent society or in some poor village, in a hamlet far from civilisation, there too, man suffers, is desperately lonely, anxious, insecure, like the rest of the mankind. As we were saying also, seeing this, one begins to question whether there is individuality at all. Or, there is only humanity and you are humanity. Essentially, deeply, you are the rest of mankind. But unfortunately we have been educated, conditioned, both religiously and environmentally, educated to the idea that we are separate individuals, each one seeking his own particular salvation, particular happiness, particular enjoyment of life. And this has given a great sense of freedom, each one doing what he wants to do. That is choice. He thinks he is free, because he can choose. But the movement of choice is in the same field from one corner to another. This is not freedom. So we were saying yesterday our consciousness, which is our human, daily existence is the rest of humanity. And that consciousness in itself is contradictory, in itself broken up, fragmented. 我们昨天早上也说到了, 我们的意识——也就是你自己的真实模样; 你的想法、你的感受、 你的反应、你的信仰、 你的结论、你的经验、你的知识、 你的恐惧、焦虑、孤独、 绝望、悲伤和对死亡的恐惧 ——这是全人类共同的东西。 无论你走到哪里,人类都被限制在了这种状态中。 无论你生活在哪里——不管是在繁荣富裕的社会, 还是在某个贫穷的山村, 或者在一个远离文明的小村庄 ——在那里人们一样痛苦,无比的孤独, 焦虑、没有安全感——就像其他人类一样。 而就如我们所说的,看到这一切后,一个人会开始去质疑 是否真的存在个体性, 或者,存在的只有人类,而你就是人类。 从本质上、深层上来说你就是其他人类。 但很不幸的是我们一直被教育着、制约着 ——不管是在宗教上还是外部环境上—— 被教导了这样一种理念:我们是分离独立的个体, 每一个人都在寻求他自己特定的救赎, 特定的幸福和特定的生活乐趣。 而这给了我们一种极大的自由感, 每个人都在做他想做的事。 这就是选择。 他认为自己是自由的,因为他可以选择。 但那种选择的运动还在同一个领域中——只不过从一个角落跑到了另一个。 这并不是自由。 所以我们昨天说了, 我们的意识——也就是我们人类的日常生活 ——它就是其余的人类。 而那种意识本身就是矛盾的, 它本身就是分裂的、支离破碎的。
17:22 As we were saying also, this is not a lecture. Lecture being: talking about a particular subject in view of giving further information about that subject. In that sense this is not a lecture. But we are thinking together, if that is at all possible. Thinking together, observing together this extraordinary phenomena, of what man has become, and what he has done with the world, with his own life, and with the life of the world around him. So we are observing very closely, impartially, dispassionately, what we are and what we have made of the world. So please, if you are at all serious, and one must be serious because the world is in a terrible state, there is tremendous danger for each of us. And so we are thinking together, observing together, not agreeing together, not seeing things as I see it or as you see it, with our own particular bias, our own prejudices, our own nationalistic, idiotic points of view, but rather be free to observe. Free to observe implies not to have any bias, to see exactly what is going on outwardly. If we do not see that accurately, then we will not be able to relate ourselves to that, accurately, precisely. If one observes clearly, without any motive, without any direction, just to observe as you would observe a mountain – it is there, majestic, silent, immovable. In the same way, to observe this extraordinary phenomena of man. 就如我们同样说过的,这并不是一次讲座。 讲座就是谈论一个特定的主题, 然后给出一些关于这个主题的进一步的信息。 从这个意义上讲,这并不是一次讲座。 而是我们一起去思考——如果可能的话。 一起思考、一起观察这种奇特的现象, 看看人类已经变成了什么样子,他又对这个世界做了些什么, 对他自己的生活,对周围这个世界的生活做了些什么。 所以我们是在非常密切、公正、冷静地观察, 我们是什么以及我们把这个世界变成了什么样子。 所以拜托,如果你们真的认真的话 ——我们必须认真,因为这个世界正处于非常危急的境地; 我们每一个人都面临着巨大的危险。 所以我们在一起思考、一起观察, 不是一起去赞同, 不是依照我的角度或者按照你的角度去看事物 ——带着我们自己特定的偏见、我们自己的成见、 我们自己民族主义的、愚蠢的观点—— 而是要自由地去观察。 自由的观察意味着没有任何偏见, 如实地看到外在发生着的事情。 如果我们没有准确地看到它们, 我们就无法将自己 与它们准确地、精确地联系起来。 如果我们清楚地观察, 没有任何动机,没有任何方向, 只是观察, 就像你去观察一座山 ——它就在那儿,庄严、沉默、巍然不动。 以同样的方式,去观察这种人类奇特的现象。
21:34 So we are together observing closely, hesitantly, attentively, this movement, this tide that goes out and comes in, which is: what we are, we create the world, and then by the world we are trapped. We have created this society, not each one of us, but our past generations, those and us have created this present immoral, destructive society. And we are trapped by that society. That society is made by each one of us. So we are responsible for that society. Whether it is possible, not to change society, but is it possible to radically, deeply, transform our conditioning, which is understand deeply our consciousness, which is what we are. Is it possible to transform, not into something, but to change, to bring about a mutation in the very structure and nature of our consciousness? That is the problem. That is the crisis. It is not a political crisis, economic crisis, or the crisis of war, but the crisis is in ourselves. And we apparently cannot face that crisis, or are unwilling to face it. And so we try to escape from that fact through various forms of entertainment – religious, political, football, and all the rest of it. 所以我们是在一起密切地、 谨慎地、留心地观察 这种运动、这种潮涨潮落 ——它们就是我们自己,是我们创造了这个世界, 然后又受困于这个世界。 我们已经创造出了这个社会, 不只是我们每一个人,还有我们过去无数世代的人, 他们和我们已经创造出了如今这个不道德的、毁灭性的社会。 然后我们又受困于这个社会。 这个社会是我们每一个人所造就的, 所以我们要对这个社会负责。 我们是否可能——不是去改变社会—— 而是有没有可能彻底地、深刻地转变我们的局限, 也就是深刻地了解我们的意识——也就是我们真实的自己。 是否可能转变——不是变成某个事物 而就是去改变, 去给我们意识本身的结构和本质带来一种突变? 这就是问题所在,这就是危机。 它不是一次政治危机、经济危机或者战争危机, 而是我们内在的危机。 而我们很显然还无法面对那种危机, 或者不愿意去面对它。 所以我们努力去逃避那个事实, 通过各种形式的娱乐活动 ——宗教、政治、足球,所有这类东西。
24:31 Also, as we were saying yesterday morning, the content of our consciousness, the content being what you think, what you feel, your reactions, your longings, your despairs, your pleasures, your depressions, your faith, your dogmas, your sorrow, your beliefs, your desperate loneliness, and the fear of ultimate death, all that is your consciousness. That is what you are. And we are asking together whether the content can end. That is, the conditioning of human mind, human existence, can that be transformed? So we took yesterday the whole question of belief, which is part of our consciousness – the ideals, the faiths that divide man against man, the totalitarian ideology and the democratic ideology, the Catholic ideology and the Protestant ideology, their belief, their dogmas, their violence – the same in the Asiatic world. That’s part of our consciousness, as nationalism is part of our tribal consciousness. Whether that belief can end totally, completely, having no belief, ideals at all, but actually face facts as they are, not as they should be. Like each one of us seeing the fact of it, the truth of it, the reality of it, the logic of it, whether we can be free totally from belief, from ideals, ideology. This requires a great deal of investigation, attention, energy to find out how our minds are crippled with beliefs and ideologies, which is an actual escape from 'that which is’. And being incapable of meeting ‘what is’, we try to escape into some ideal; which we will go into more in detail as we go along. 同样的,就如我们昨天早上所说的, 我们意识的内容 ——意识的内容就是你的思想、你的感受、你的反应、 你的渴望、你的绝望、 你的快乐、你的沮丧、你的信念、你的教条、 你的悲伤、你的信仰、你那令人绝望的孤独, 以及对最终会降临的死亡的恐惧 ——所有这些就是你的意识。它们就是实际的你。 而我们正在一起发问, 这些内容能否终结。 也就是,人类心灵的制约、人类的存在, 它们能否转变? 所以我们昨天探讨了有关信仰的整个问题 ——信仰也是我们意识的一部分—— 探讨了那些划分了人与人的理想和信念, 极权主义者的意识形态和民主政治的意识形态, 天主教的意识形态和新教的意识形态; 他们的信仰、他们的教条、他们的暴力 ——在亚洲地区也是一样的情况。 它们是我们意识的一部分, 就像国家主义是我们部落意识的一部分一样。 那种信仰是否可以完全地、彻底地结束, 没有任何信仰和理想, 而是如实地去面对那些事实 ——如实地面对,而不是它们应该怎样。 就像我们每个人都看到了它的真相,它的事实, 它的现实,它的逻辑, 我们是否可以彻底地摆脱信仰、摆脱理想、摆脱意识形态。 这需要大量的探究、关注 和能量,才能发现我们的心是如何被信仰和意识形态削弱的 ——信仰和意识形态实际上是在逃避那个“现实”。 因为无力去面对“现实”, 于是我们努力逃避到某个理想中去 ——这点我们接下来将会更详细地探讨。
28:25 And also we took yesterday this question of hurt, psychological, inward hurt of human beings; how each one of us from childhood till we die, we are always hurt by something or other. If you are aware of it as you are sitting there – I hope comfortably – whether one is aware that one is hurt, deeply hurt: by the parents, by the school, through comparison, through some kind of harsh word, through a gesture. And as we grow older we carry that hurt, consciously or unconsciously, deeply. And the consequences of that hurt are incredibly complex because when one is hurt, one is afraid of getting more hurt, and the action from that hurt, either neurotic, defensive, and to defend oneself further from being hurt and therefore fear involved in that hurt. That’s part of our consciousness. 我们昨天也谈到了伤害的问题, 人类心理上的、内在的伤害; 我们每一个人,从孩提时代开始直到我们死去, 是如何一直被这个或者那个所伤害的。 当你坐在那里时——我希望你坐得还算舒服——你是否意识到了这点? 我们是否意识到自己受到了伤害,深深的伤害: 被父母伤害、被学校伤害、被比较、 被某些刺耳的话语、被一个手势而伤害。 当我们长大以后,我们携带着那种伤害 ——有意识或者无意识的,内心深处带着那种伤害。 而那种伤害的后果是难以置信的复杂, 因为当一个人受到了伤害,他会害怕遭受更多的伤害, 而从那种伤害中所产生出来的行动,要么是神经质的,要么是防卫性的 ——防卫自己以免受到进一步的伤害, 因此那种伤害中就包含了恐惧。 这就是我们意识的一部分。
30:39 As we said, that hurt is the image we have built about oneself. Each one has an image about himself: various types of masks, various qualities and variety of images he has built himself or society has given him the images, because it is one of these images that gets hurt. The image is me, the image is not different from me. We went into that yesterday. So whether it is possible to be totally, completely free from all hurts, never to be hurt. Then only the mind can flower, then only there can be proper human relationship with each other. So it is very important to find out whether it is possible to be entirely free of an image about oneself; and it is that image that gets hurt. We went into it somewhat in detail yesterday. 就如我们说过的,那种伤害就是我们为自己建立起来的形象。 每个人都有一个自我形象: 各种类型的面具,各种性格品质 和他自己所拥有的各种形象 ——这些形象是他自己建立的,或者是社会赋予他的, 因为正是其中的某个形象受到了伤害。 那个形象就是我;形象和我并没有什么不同。 我们昨天已经探讨过这点了。 所以是否可能 完全地、彻底地摆脱所有伤害, 永远不再受到伤害; 只有那时心灵才会绽放, 只有那时人类彼此之间才会有恰当的关系。 所以这一点非常重要,那就是去发现 是否有可能完全地摆脱一个自我形象; 因为受到伤害的正是那个形象。 我们昨天已经多多少少细致地探究过这一点了。
32:29 So we should also go into the examination of the further content of one’s consciousness. That is, relationship with our fellow man, relationship with another, relationship with the most intimate person. In that relationship, as one observes in daily life, there is a great deal of conflict. There is a great deal of struggle, unhappiness, ultimately ending in divorce and finding another and beginning the same song again. This perpetual conflict between man and man, between man and woman; why? We accept this conflict, or, if we do not accept it and want to find a solution for it, we go to the professionals to help us: the psychologists, the priest, some authority, some specialist that will help us to get over our particular conflict with another. And apparently, as one observes, if you have also observed, this conflict doesn’t end. You may cover it over, you may run away from it, you may somehow forget it and accept it, but there is the conflict inwardly, in our relationship with all human beings, however intimate, however distant. We have never asked why. Whether that conflict between human beings, intimate or otherwise, can ever end. This is an important question to ask, because all life is relationship, whether you live in a monastery or in a commune or live by yourself in a little flat, you are still related. Life is a movement in relationship. And in that movement there is apparently a great deal of conflict and misery. This is part of our consciousness, submerged or on the surface. Why, after a million years with all the information that we have, all the information which has become our knowledge, has it not prevented us from this sorrow, conflict of this relationship? 所以我们也应该开始去检视 我们意识的更深一步的内容。 也就是,我们和自己同伴的关系、我们和他人的关系、 我们和身边最亲密的人的关系。 在那种关系中——就像我们在日常生活中所看到的 ——有着无数的冲突, 有着无数的斗争和烦恼, 最终以离婚告终,然后去找另外一个人, 再次开始同样的过程。 这种永无止境的冲突发生在人与人之间, 发生在男人和女人之间,为什么会这样? 我们接受了这种冲突, 或者我们不接受它,想要找到一个解决方法, 我们去找那些专业人士来帮助我们: 心理学家、牧师、某个权威、某个专家, 认为他们将会帮助我们克服与他人的特定的冲突。 而很显然,就如你所看到的——如果你也已经观察过的话—— 这种冲突并未停止。 你或许可以掩饰它,你或许可以逃离它, 你或许能够以某种方式忘记它并且接纳它, 但是内在还是存在冲突, 在我们和所有人的关系中 ——不管是多么亲密,还是相距多么遥远。 我们从没有问过为什么。 那种人类之间的冲突 ——不管是与亲密的人还是与其他人——能否结束。 问这个问题非常重要,因为所有的生活都是关系, 不管你是生活在修道院里,还是生活在一个公社里, 或者独自生活在一间小公寓里, 你仍旧是处于关系中的。 生活就是一种关系中的运动。 而在那种运动中,很显然有着 大量的冲突和痛苦。 这是我们意识的一部分——潜在的或者表面的。 为什么在一百万年以后,虽然我们拥有所有那些信息 ——这些信息已经变成了我们的知识—— 它们还是未能制止我们关系中的这种悲伤 和冲突?
36:34 Please ask yourself this question. I am not asking you to ask this question, it is a natural question. We have to face this problem and resolve it. If it is not resolved, if we live in conflict, we’ll inevitably create a society that will perpetuate this conflict. So please be serious, if you will, with regard to this question, because it is very important. We are facing wars; war is this ultimate result of our endless conflict within ourselves, conflict with our most intimate persons. So this a very serious question which one must find an answer to and resolve it. It is not an academic question, a theoretical question. It’s a human question, in which we are all involved, every day of our life. Why we live in conflict with our neighbour, whether that neighbour be far away or close by. Why we have this struggle, this conflict between man and woman, various forms of struggle – sexual, the struggle of each one pursuing his own desire, his own ambition, his own fulfilment or her fulfilment, each one trying to become something different from each other. This is an obvious, daily fact. You may meet in bed, but each one is pursuing different lives, that’s like two parallel lines never meeting – and this is called relationship, in which there is no actual sense of love, which we’ll go into. 请问问你自己这个问题。 我并不是在要求你去问这个问题, 这是一个自然而然的问题。 我们必须面对这个问题然后解决它。 如果这个问题没有解决,如果我们生活在冲突中, 那我们就必然会创造出一个永远维系这种冲突的社会。 所以如果你愿意,请认真对待这个问题, 因为它非常重要。 我们正面临着战争 ——战争就是我们内在无尽的冲突, 我们和最亲密的人之间冲突的最终结果。 所以这是一个非常严肃的问题, 我们必须找到答案然后解决它。 这并不是一个学术性的问题,不是一个理论上的问题。 这是一个人类的问题,它涉及到我们所有人, 涉及到我们每一天的生活; 为什么我们会与我们的邻居生活在冲突中 ——不管那个邻居是在遥远的地方还是在附近; 为什么男人和女人之间会有这种斗争和冲突 ——各种形式的斗争: 性方面的,还有每个人都在奋力追求他自己的欲望、 他自己的野心、他自己——或她自己——的成就, 每个人都在努力变得与众不同。 这是一个很明显的、日常生活中的事实。 你们或许可以睡在一起, 但是每一个人都追求着各自不同的生活, 就像是两条永不相交的平行线; 而这就被称为关系, 其中并没有真正爱的感觉 ——这点我们以后会来探讨。
40:05 Love is not pleasure, love is not desire, love is not seeking fulfilment, but we have made our relationship with each other a sense of fulfilment, pleasure, something to be desired. So why do human beings so technologically intelligent, such extraordinary capacity and energy, why human beings have not solved this most essential question, problem. You may meditate, you may seek enlightenment, you may follow the latest guru, the latest expression of whatever you are following, but if you have not solved this problem, all your spiritual attainments and technological achievements have no value at all. Because our life is relationship, our life is something that cannot be lived by yourself in isolation, and because we live or attempt to live in isolation, we are bringing about great catastrophe. As a group, as nations which are isolating themselves – the American, the British, the French, the Russian, the Indian, and so on. This is a form of isolation, and in that isolation they are trying to find security. There is no security whatsoever in isolation. Because ultimately human beings are being destroyed. Similarly, if we have not resolved this essential, basic question of relationship, which is at present isolating us from each other, this isolation must inevitably breed all kinds of misery, confusion, hatred, anger. So is it possible to have a relationship in which there is no conflict whatsoever? 爱不是欢愉,爱不是欲望, 爱不是谋求成就, 但是我们已经把我们彼此之间的关系 变成了一种成就感、一种快感、某种我们渴望的事物,等等。 所以为什么人类——在科技上是如此智慧, 拥有如此非凡的能力和能量—— 为什么人类没有解决这个最本质的问题和难题。 你或许会去冥想;你或许会去寻求开悟; 你或许会去追随新出炉的古鲁, 追随你所遵循的无论什么最新式的表达, 但是如果你没有解决这个问题的话, 那么你所有精神上的成就和技术上的成果 都是毫无价值的。 因为我们的生活就是关系, 我们的生活是你无法孤立地活在其中的事物, 而因为我们活在,或者试图去活在孤立中, 于是就带来了巨大的灾难。 人类作为一个团体,作为国家在孤立着他们自己 ——美国人、英国人、法国人、 俄国人、印度人等等。 这就是一种孤立的形式, 在那种孤立中,他们试图去找到安全。 然而在孤立中是没有任何安全可言的, 因为人类最终还是会被毁灭。 同样的,如果我们没有解决这个本质的、 根本的关系问题 ——这个问题目前正孤立着我们彼此—— 那么这种孤立肯定会不可避免地滋生出各种不幸、 混乱、仇恨、愤怒。 所以是否可能有一种关系 ——其中没有任何的冲突?
43:55 What is relationship? What does it mean to be related to another, not physically only, but much more psychologically, deeply, which conditions our physical activity. We always forget that: that we want to improve the environment as society, and we do all kind of legislative laws and so on. We never realise that psychologically if we are not clear what we do, we’ll bring about a rotten society. Psychologically it is more important to transform our own conflicts, not end merely the outward conflicts. I hope we understand this deeply. The psychological conflicts will inevitably produce world conflict. But we are trying to change the outward structure without fundamentally, psychologically, if I may use that word which is so abused, spiritually – if there is no fundamental basic transformation of the psyche, do what you will outwardly, what you have done outwardly will always be overcome by the psyche. As you see in the recent revolution of the Communists. They hoped through changing of the outward structure of society they would change man. And it has been totally the other way, which is so observable and known. 什么是关系? 和他人产生关系是什么意思——不仅仅是身体上的关系, 而更是一种心理上的关系、深层的关系—— 这种关系也影响了我们身体的行动。 我们常常会忘记这一点: 我们想要改善社会环境, 于是我们进行各种立法活动,等等。 我们从未意识到如果没有在心理上明白自己要做什么的话, 我们就会带来一个腐败的社会。 在心理上转变我们自己的冲突才是更重要的, 而不仅仅是去终止外在的冲突。 我希望我们已经深刻地明白了这一点。 心理上的冲突将不可避免地制造出这个世界的冲突。 但我们却在努力改变外在的结构 而没有从根本上、从心理上, ——如果我可以使用这个已被如此滥用的词——从精神上去改变。 如果没有心灵彻底根本的转变, 无论外在上你下决心做了什么, 你外在所做的事情将总是会被心灵所打败。 就像你所看到的最近共产主义者的革命。 他们希望通过改变社会的外在结构 来改变人类。 这是一种截然相反的方式——这点很明显,也很好理解。
46:38 So relationship is extraordinarily important. And why is there this division between man and woman, within himself, and with his neighbour; the whole process of relationship? Are you waiting for the speaker to explain it away? Why we live in conflict with each other, man, woman, and so on. Or, we are together observing this phenomena, observing, not trying to resolve it. To observe first and to understand how to observe, not how to resolve the problem, you understand? There is the problem: I am not married, suppose I am married, I have a wife, I am pursing my own desires, my own ambition, my own success and so on, and she is also doing the same thing, in a different form, and we may have sex, and all that, children, but we two are separate entities, pursuing our own goals, our own ways, our own fulfilment, doing our own thing, as you call it. And naturally, my wife and I are in contradiction, quarrel, irritation, not able to adjust, or not wanting to adjust. Because really, where there is love there is no adjustment. So what shall I do? What is my action, or non-action – please listen carefully – action or non-action, because non-action will be far more important than action. The negation is the most positive action. That is, to see the false and see the truth in the false, is to end the false. Just to observe. But we are all so eager to act, to do something about it. My wife and I quarrel, we disagree – you know all the rest of the ugly business that goes on; you are probably much more aware of it than I am. The terrible tension, the loneliness, the ugliness of it all! 所以关系是极其重要的。 为什么会有这种分裂?在男人和女人之间, 在与他人之间,在自己的内心,在他和邻居之间, 在关系的全部过程中为什么会有分裂? 你是在等讲话者来把它解释清楚吗? 为什么我们生活在彼此的冲突中,男人、女人等等。 或者我们是在一起观察这种现象, 观察它,而不试图去解决它, 首先去观察, 去了解如何观察, 而不是如何去解决问题,你明白吗? 就拿这个问题来看: 我没有结婚,假如我结婚了,我有一个妻子, 我在追求我自己的渴望、我自己的野心、成功等等, 而她也在做着同样的事情,只不过是以不同的方式, 我们之间或许会有性关系,等等这些,生儿育女, 但我们是两个分离的存在体,追求着各自的目标、各自的道路、 各自的成就、各自为政——就像你们所说的那样。 于是很自然的,我的妻子和我会处于矛盾、争吵和恼怒中, 无法彼此适应,或者不想去调整。 因为实际上,当有了爱就不会有适应的问题了。 所以我该怎么做呢? 我的行动是什么?或者不行动? 请认真听好,行动或者不行动, 因为不行动远远要比行动更加重要。 否定就是最正面的行动。 也就是,看到错误并且看到错误中的真相 ——这就结束了那个错误。只是去观察。 但我们都如此急于去行动,去对此做些什么。 我和妻子吵架了,我们发生了争执, 你知道发生着的所有这些丑陋之事; 你或许比我更清楚这些: 那种可怕的紧张关系,那种孤独,它所有的丑陋!
50:56 Now, together, we are going to observe, not to resolve the problem – please listen carefully – not to resolve, not to end it, or try to find a solution for this; but together we will observe. That is, how you approach the problem, that is, how you look at the problem. The approach is far more important than the problem itself; isn’t it? If I am frightened of losing my wife, or – you know all that business, I don’t have to go into details of all that – my approach then is conditioned by my fear. And the solution then of the problem is conditioned by my fear, so it’s not resolved. You understand? So, the approach matters far more than the problem itself. If we could understand this one simple thing! So we are always concerned with the problem, the complexity of it, the analysis of the problem. Our mind is directed to the solution of the problem. The speaker is saying, don’t bother with the solution, but how you approach, how you come close to the problem, how you observe the problem is much more important than the problem itself. Have you got this? Even intellectually see this, verbally, that the solution is not important, what is important is how you come to the problem, how you look at the problem. Is the problem out there and you are approaching it, or – please listen – or, the problem is you. You understand? 而现在,我们将要一起去观察, 而不是去解决这个问题, 请认真听好, 不是去解决,不是去结束它,或者试图找到一个解决方案; 而是我们要一起去观察。 也就是,你是如何去处理这个问题的, 你是如何去看待这个问题的,你明白吗? 如何处理问题要远远比问题本身更加重要,不是吗? 如果我害怕失去自己的妻子,或者 这些事情你都知道, 无需我再赘述了。 于是我处理问题的方式是被我的恐惧所限制的。 因此问题的解决方案也是被我的恐惧所约束的, 所以问题无法解决。你明白了吗? 所以,处理问题的方式远远要比问题本身更加重要。 要是我们能明白这个简单的道理就好了! 所以我们一直在关心问题,它的错综复杂, 以及去分析问题。 我们的头脑专注于解决问题。 而我们说——讲话者说的是——不要去操心问题的解决, 而是你如何处理它,你如何靠近这个问题, 你如何观察这个问题——这些要比问题本身 重要得多。你搞懂了吗? 哪怕是在智力上、在语言上明白这点 ——那就是解决方案并不重要, 重要的是你如何触及这个问题, 你如何看待这个问题。 是不是问题在那里,然后你去接近它,或者 ——请听好——还是说,那个问题就是你。 你明白吗?
53:52 I won’t go into that for the moment, for that leads us somewhere else. So, as we are saying, the approach to the problem is all important. Right? Can we move from there? You are moving, I am not moving. We are saying, how you come to the problem, how you look at the problem, how you gather your energy to look at the problem. Is your approach directed, which means trying to resolve the problem, or have you a motive, and if you have a motive, you approach with that motive? So, when you approach with a motive, the motive is going to decide how you will deal with the problem. Whereas, if you have no motive – please, this demands accurate observation – when you have no motive and therefore no direction, then you are observing the problem purely, without any bias, without any discoloration. You are just observing it. Right? Are we doing this now as we go along? Please, this is not a game we are playing. It’s not an intellectual amusement on Sunday morning. This is very, very serious, because life is relationship. If we don’t understand that relationship, then we create havoc in the world, we destroy our children, we destroy each other – which we are doing now, through competition, through wars, through all the horror that man is doing. 这点我暂时先不深入了,因为这会让我们跑题。 所以——就如我们所说的——处理问题的方式至关重要。 对吗?我们可以从这一点开始展开讨论吗? 你出发了,我还没出发。(笑声) 我们说的是,你是如何触及问题的, 你是如何看待问题的, 你是如何聚集你的能量去观察问题的。 你的处理方式是定向的吗? ——那意味着试图去解决问题, 或者你有一个动机, 而如果你有一个动机,你就会带着那个动机去处理问题。 所以当你带着一个动机去处理问题时, 那个动机就会决定你将会如何处理这个问题。 然而,如果你没有动机 ——请注意,这需要精准的观察—— 当你没有动机从而没有方向时, 那么你就是在纯粹地、毫无偏见地、 不加渲染地观察问题。 你只是观察它。对吗? 在我们讨论的时候,我们是否正在做这件事? 拜托,这并不是一个我们在玩的游戏。 这不是一次星期天早晨的智力消遣。 这是非常、非常严肃的事,因为生活就是关系。 如果我们不了解那种关系, 我们就会为这个世界带来浩劫; 我们会毁掉我们的孩子; 我们会毁掉彼此 ——这就是我们现在所做的事,通过竞争、 通过战争、通过人类所做的各种恐怖之事。
56:29 So together we are observing, why human beings cannot live at peace with each other. That is the fact, that’s an actual statement, not exaggerated, and our approach to it is either pure, non-personal objective observation or you are approaching it with a personal reaction. If you are approaching with a personal reaction, it will go on forever – the conflict. But if you approach it objectively, dispassionately, without any direction, you understand, what is then the state of your mind – please follow this – what is then the state of your mind which looks at the problem? You have understood this? Have you understood, somebody? All right, let’s put it the other way. Why is there conflict between man and woman, between man and man, you know, the whole relationship – why? Look at it please. Answer it to yourself, go into it yourself; don’t depend on me, on the speaker, he’s not worth it. He has no value. He is just a verbal entity, a telephone. But you have to find the answer, why. Is it – we are observing together, so you are not learning it from the speaker, he is not teaching you anything. Please understand this, he is not teaching you a thing! Therefore you are not his followers; he is not your authority, he is not your guru. They have all led you astray. Because they have never been able to solve this problem, or never tackled this problem. 所以我们是在一起观察, 为什么人类无法彼此和平相处。 这是事实,这是一种真实的陈述,并不是夸张, 而我们处理它的方式,要么是纯粹的、 非个人化的客观的观察, 要么你是带着一种个人化的反应在处理它。 如果你是带着一种个人化的反应在处理它, 那么它——冲突——就会永远持续下去。 但是如果你客观地、冷静地处理它, 没有任何方向——你明白吗—— 那么你的头脑的状态是怎样的——请跟上这一点—— 那时,那个在观察问题的头脑是怎样的状态? 你理解了吗?你们明白了吗,有人明白了吗? 好吧,让我们换种方式来说一下。 为什么男人和女人之间, 男人之间,你知道的,所有关系中都有冲突,为什么? 请观察一下,自己去回答它,自己去探究它; 不要依赖我,依赖这个讲话者,他并不值得你依赖。 他毫无价值。他只是一个讲话者、一个传话筒。 但是你得去找到答案,搞清楚为什么。 是否可能——我们是在一起观察, 所以你并不是在从讲话者这里学习它, 他并没有教你任何东西,请明白这一点。 他没有在教导你某个东西。 所以你并不是他的追随者, 他也不是你的权威,不是你的古鲁 ——古鲁和权威都只会把你引入歧途, 因为他们从未能解决这个问题, 或者从未处理过这个问题。
59:40 So, in observing together, we are going to discover why this conflict exists, whether it is possible to end it completely, not theoretically, not for a day – end it. This conflict exists, must exist – I don’t want to tell you, because it becomes so silly. If I tell you, you will say, yes, that’s quite right, and then you are back. It isn’t something that you yourself have discovered. You know what happens when you discover something for yourself, psychologically? You have immense energy. And you need energy to free the mind of its conditioning. I quarrel with my wife, if I have one, or the girl, whatever it is – I quarrel with her because I am a lonely man. I want to possess her, I want to depend on her, I want her comfort, her encouragement, her companionship. I want to have somebody who will tell me that I’m marvellous. So I am building an image about her. And she also wants to be possessed, wants to fulfil in me, sexually, wants me to be something different from what I am. So, there is this, each one, living it may be for a week, or a day, or years, has built an image which becomes knowledge. Follow this, please follow this! Knowledge about each other. Knowledge – may I go into it a little bit? This is serious. Knowledge is destructive in relationship. Right? If you once understand this! I say, 'I know my wife' because I have lived with her, I know all her tendencies, her irritations, impetuosity, her jealousy, which becomes my knowledge about her: how she walks, how she does her hair, how she moves – you follow? I have collected a lot of information and knowledge about her. And she has collected a lot of knowledge about me. So the past – you follow? Knowledge is always the past, right? There is no knowledge about the future, predictable. So, we have knowledge about each other. Right? 所以在一起观察的过程中,我们将要去发现 为什么这种冲突会存在,有没有可能彻底结束它, 不是理论上的结束,不是一朝一夕——而是结束它。 这种冲突会存在,它必然会存在——我可不想告诉你, 因为那就太愚蠢了。 如果我告诉你,你就会说,是的,很对,(笑声) 然后又回到老样子。 它并不是你自己发现的东西。 你知道 当你自己内心发现了某些东西时会发生什么? 那时你会有巨大的能量。 而你需要能量把心灵从它的局限中解脱出来。 我和我的妻子吵架——如果我有一个妻子的话 ——或者和我的女朋友吵架,无论是谁。 我和她吵架是因为我很孤独, 我想要占有她,我想要依赖她, 我想要她的安慰、她的鼓励、她的陪伴; 我想要有个人来告诉我我很了不起。 于是我建立了一个关于她的形象, 而她同样也想被占有, 想要在我身上获得满足——性方面的满足, 想要我变成某个不同于我真实样子的人。 所以问题就在这里,每个人 ——或许在一起生活了一个星期、一天或者几年, 就已经建立起了一个形象,而这个形象变成了知识。 跟上这点,请跟上这点——关于彼此的知识。 知识——我可以稍微深入地探讨一下吗? 这是很严肃的。知识在关系中是具有破坏性的。 对吗? 一旦你明白了这一点: 我说我熟悉我的妻子, 因为我与她生活在一起,我知道她所有的倾向, 知道她的恼怒、她的急躁、她的嫉妒, 这些变成了我所知道的关于她的知识:她是如何走路的, 她是如何做头发的,她是如何做事的——你明白吗? 我收集了很多关于她的信息和知识。 而她也收集了很多关于我的知识; 于是过去——你明白吗——知识永远都是过去。对吗? 并不存在关于未来的知识、可预言的知识。 所以我有着那些知识,我们有着关于彼此的知识。对吗?
1:04:23 So we have to enquire a great deal into the question of knowledge: what place has knowledge in life? Are we together in this observation? Will knowledge transform man? What place has knowledge in the mutation or in the ending of conditioning? This is conditioning: I have conditioned her through knowledge, and she has conditioned me through knowledge. You are following all this? We are together in this? We are observing together? Please, I am not teaching you. You are observing with all your energy, with capacity to see this fact: that where there is knowledge in relationship, there must be conflict. I must have knowledge how to drive a car, how to write a sentence, how to speak English, or French, or Italian, whatever language it is. Or I must have technological knowledge; if I am a good carpenter, I must have knowledge about the wood, the tools I use and so on. But in relationship with my wife, or with a friend, whatever it is, that knowledge which I have gathered together, put together through constant irritation, constant separation, ambitions, this knowledge which I have acquired, that knowledge is going to prevent actual relationship with another. Right? Is this a fact, or is this merely a supposition, a theory, an idea? An idea is an abstraction of a fact. Right? The word ‘idea’ in Greek means to observe, to see, to come very close to perception, not make an abstraction which becomes an idea. So we are not dealing with ideas. But we are dealing with the actual relationship, which is in conflict, and that conflict arises when I have accumulated lots of information about her and she has acquired a lot about me. So, our relationship then is based on knowledge, and knowledge can never be complete, about anything in life. Please realise this. Knowledge must always go with the shadow of ignorance. Right? You can’t know about the universe. Astrophysicists may describe, but to be aware of that immensity, no knowledge is required through information; you have to have that mind that is so vast, so completely orderly, as the universe is, then that’s a different matter. 所以我必须对知识的问题进行大量的探询: 知识在生活中的位置是什么? 我们是在一起观察它吗? 知识能改变人类吗? 知识在人类的突变中的位置是什么? 在终结局限中的位置是什么? 这就是局限: 通过关于她的知识,我限定了她; 而她也经由知识限定了我。 你们明白这些吗?我们是在一起的吗? 我们是在一起观察吗?请注意,我并没有在教导你。 你是在观察,用你所有的能量, 用你的能力去看到这个事实: 当关系中有了知识,就必然会有冲突。 我必须要有如何驾驶汽车的知识,如何造句的知识, 如何说英语、法语或者意大利语——无论什么语言——的知识。 或者如果我是一个优秀的木匠,那么我就必须要有技术上的知识, 我必须知道关于木头的知识、关于我所使用的工具等等的知识。 但是在我和妻子的关系中, 或者我和朋友的关系中——无论什么关系中, 我所收集起来的、 拼凑在一起的那些知识——通过经常的恼怒、 经常的隔离、野心所收集起来的, 我已经获得的那些知识, ——这种知识将会阻碍我和他人真正的关系。 对吗? 这是一个事实,还是说它仅仅是一个假设、一个理论、一个概念? 概念就是对某个事实的抽象化。对吗? “概念”这个词在希腊语中的意思就是去观察、去审视、 非常靠近地去感知, 而不是把它抽象化——这种抽象就会变成一个概念。 所以我们并不是在讨论概念, 而是在讨论实际的关系 ——那种处于冲突中的关系, 而冲突的出现 是由于我积累了很多关于她的信息, 而她也获得了很多关于我的知识。 因此,我们的关系是建立在知识之上的; 而知识永远不可能是完整的——无论是生命中任何事物的知识。 请认识到这一点。 知识必然总是伴随着无知的阴影。 对吗? 你是无法通晓这个宇宙的。 天体物理学家或许会描述它, 但是要觉察到那种无限, 不需要任何经由信息而来的知识; 而是你必须要有一个如此广阔的心灵, 具有如此彻底的秩序——就像这个宇宙一样, 那么,这就是一件不同的事情了。
1:08:58 So similarly, knowledge in relationship brings about conflict. See the fact. Not accept the fact. See the fact that knowledge has importance in one direction, in the other it has not. The negation is the most positive – you understand? Right? Can we go from there a little more? That is: do we exercise will to end conflict? That is, to enquire whether will, which is positive action – ‘I want to end this conflict’ – whether that will will bring about the cessation of conflict, – we have done this before. 所以同样的,关系中的知识带来了冲突。 看到这个事实,但不是接受这个事实; 看到这个事实:知识在某一个方向上是有价值的, 而在另一个方向上则没有价值。 否定即是最大的肯定——你明白了吗? 对吗?我们可以从这里开始再稍微深入一些吗? 那就是, 我们要运用意志去结束冲突吗? 那就是,去质询意志能否——也就是肯定性的行动, “我想要结束这种冲突”—— 这种意志能否止息冲突 ——我们以前就是这么做的。
1:10:20 So, it’s very important to understand the place of knowledge and knowledge as an impediment in relationship. Love is not knowledge, love is not remembrance. When there is no knowledge about her, I look upon her as a fresh, new human being, each day new. You know what it does? You are too learned, you are full of book knowledge, what other people have said. And that’s why this becomes awfully difficult to comprehend – a very simple thing like this. 所以,重要的是去了解知识的位置 以及知识在关系中造成的阻碍。 爱并不是知识,爱并不是记忆。 当没有了关于她的知识,我就会如实地看待她, 把她作为一个全新的、宛如初见的人——每一天都是崭新的。 你知道那会怎么样吗? 你们都太博学了,你们装满了书本的知识, 装满了别人的话语。 而这就是为什么了解会变得这么困难的原因 ——哪怕只是了解这么简单的一件事情。
1:11:41 Again quarter to one. I’m sorry. We’ll continue next Saturday and Sunday, because we are dealing with a very complex problem of living. And that living is the understanding of the content of our consciousness. As long as we have not comprehended the totality of that consciousness we’ll always be in disorder. And disorder is the very nature of our consciousness. And that’s why we took faith, belief, hurt, relationship: it’s part of our consciousness. And out of this disorder order can be brought about, which we’ll talk about next Saturday and Sunday. 又是差一刻就一点钟了,很抱歉。 下个星期六和星期天,我们将会继续探讨, 因为我们在讨论的是一个非常复杂的生活问题。 而那种生活就是要去了解我们意识的内容。 只要我们还是没有理解那个意识的全部内容, 我们就一直会处于混乱中。 而混乱正是我们意识的本性。 这就是为什么我们要探讨信念、信仰、伤害和关系: 因为它们就是我们意识的一部分。 而从这种混乱中,秩序是可以产生的 ——我们会在下个星期六和星期天来讨论这个问题。
1:12:59 May I get up now? 我可以起来了吗?