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OJ82T3 - 我们身处混乱当中的心能够建立秩序吗？
第三次公开讲话
美国，加州，欧亥
1982年5月8日



1:22 May we continue where we left off last Sunday? We were talking about right kind of relationship. In most of our relationship, there is a great deal of conflict, struggle, lack of understanding each other and so on. We went into it very carefully. If you do not mind, we won’t go into it again today. That’s where we left off last Sunday when we met here. We pointed out how important it is to have right kind of relationship: man, woman, or with people who are far away from us. Because life is a relationship, is a movement in relationship; and apparently we have never been able to solve the problem of not having conflict in relationship. And we went carefully into that problem. And this morning we ought to talk about two things, order and fear. 我们可以接着上个星期天中断的地方继续讲吗？ 我们在探讨的是一种正确的关系。 我们大多数人的关系， 那种关系中有着大量的冲突、斗争、 缺乏彼此之间的了解等等。 我们已经非常仔细地探讨过这点了。 如果你不介意，今天我们就不再讲了。 这就是上个星期天我们在这儿会面时中断的地方。 我们指出了拥有一种正确的关系是多么的重要： 和男人、女人的关系，或者和那些离我们很遥远的人的关系。 因为生活就是关系，它是一种关系中的运动； 而很显然，我们还从未能够 解决这个问题，那就是：让关系中不再有冲突。 我们非常仔细地探讨了这个问题。 而今天早上，我们要来谈两件事情：秩序和恐惧。
3:24 What is order? That word has a great deal of significance – order from a general to his soldiers, order, ecclesiastic order, monastic order, order in one’s house, order in the garden and so on. That word has extraordinary meaning. We have tried to establish order in society, by laws, by authority, by policemen and so on. Society, the thing in which we are caught, is created by each one of us, by our parents, past generations, and that society is in disorder, confused. That society has almost become immoral, that society is breeding wars; enormous sums are spent on armaments. In that society there is division, conflict. There is the totalitarian society, and the so-called democratic society; whether it is the totalitarian or democratic there is still disorder, confusion, each individual asserting himself aggressively against others, and so there is general disorder. That disorder is created by all of us because we live in disorder. Our house is in disorder – not the physical house, but the psychological house, which is our consciousness – is in disarray, disturbed, broken up, contradictory. 什么是秩序（order）？ 这个词有很多意思： 一个将军对他的士兵所下达的命令， 秩序，教会的秩序、 修道院的秩序、一个人家里面的秩序、 花园里的秩序等等。 这个词具有非凡的意义。 我们曾经尝试去建立社会中的秩序——通过法律、 通过权威、通过警察等等。 社会——我们都身陷于社会中—— 它是我们每一个人，是我们的父母，是过去世世代代的人所创造的。 这个社会正处于混乱中、困惑中， 这个社会已经几乎变得道德败坏了， 这个社会正在培育战争， 无数的钱被花在了军备武器上。 这个社会中有着分裂、冲突。 我们有着极权主义社会，也有着所谓的“民主社会”； 但不管是极权主义的还是民主的， 都依然有着混乱和困惑， 每个个体都在极富侵略性地维护自己、对抗他人， 因此我们有着普遍的混乱。 那种混乱是我们所有人制造的，因为我们就活在混乱之中。 我们的房子已经一团糟了 ——不是物理上的房子，而是心理上的房子， 也就是我们的意识—— 我们的意识正处于混乱、烦躁、分裂和矛盾中。
6:29 If one may point out, this is not an entertainment, intellectual or otherwise. We are talking about human problems. And this is – if I may again point out – this is not a lecture, a lecture being, giving certain information, having a discourse on a particular subject, with in view either to convince, or to do some kind of propaganda, and so on. This is not a lecture in that sense. But together we are investigating, we are exploring into the question of order and disorder. Our minds are in disorder – can such a mind create order, bring about order? That’s the first problem we have to face. Most of us, in our daily life, are in confusion, uncertain, contradictory, psychologically deeply wounded, psychologically having no right relationship with another. And in that relationship there is contradiction, disorder, disharmony, and so our life, probably from the moment we are born till we die, we live in disorder. One wonders if one is aware of it. 如果我可以指出来， 那就是这并不是一次娱乐消遣——智力上的或者感情上的。 我们在谈的是人类的问题。 而这——如果我可以再次指出的话——这也不是一次讲座。 讲座就是给出一些信息， 论述某一个特定的主题， 目的要么是为了说服对方， 要么是为了做一些宣传，等等。 这并不是一次这种意义上的讲座。 而是我们要一起去探究， 我们在探讨关于秩序和混乱的问题。 我们的心灵处在混乱之中 ——这样的一个心灵可以建立秩序，带来秩序吗？ 这是我们必须面对的第一个问题。 我们大多数人的日常生活中都充满了混乱、不确定、 矛盾、深深的心理创伤， 在心理上，我们和别人并没有正确的关系。 在那种关系中有着矛盾、混乱、不和谐， 所以我们的生活，或许从我们出生那一刻起直到我们死去， 我们都生活在混乱中。 我想知道我们是否意识到了这点。
8:57 We went into the question of what is to be aware, to be conscious, to recognise the fact that one is in disorder. If one is at all aware of that fact, and if one is, do we escape from it, seeking a solution, or accept a pattern of order, a design of order and therefore conform to a particular norm? Are we aware of all these psychological movements born out of disorder? And how does this disorder come about? Why, after so many millennia upon millennia, we live psychologically in disorder, and therefore outwardly in disorder. Outwardly our disorder is expressed in multiple forms, as nationality, division among people, religious divisions, wars and so on. 我们探讨了什么是“觉察”这个问题，去觉察， 去意识到，去认识到这个事实：我们是处在混乱中的。 我们是否真的意识到了这个事实，如果意识到了，我们是否会逃避它， 寻找一个解决方案，或者接受某种秩序的模式， 某种设计好的秩序，然后去遵照某个特定的标准？ 我们是否觉察到了所有那些 来自于混乱的心理活动？ 而这种混乱是如何产生的呢？ 为什么在成千上万年以后， 我们内心还是生活在混乱之中——从而外在也混乱不堪。 我们外在的混乱表现为多种形式， 比如国家主义，人与人之间的划分， 宗教的分裂，战争等等。
10:48 So, we are asking: is it possible to be free of this disorder – the ending of disorder – and therefore the very ending is order. Order is virtue. You cannot possibly discipline a mind to become orderly. Because the entity who desires order, that entity himself is the result of confusion, and therefore whatever order it creates must bring about disorder. I hope we are all serious this morning, as we have pointed out over and over again, this is a serious affair. Life is becoming so terribly dangerous, uncertain. It is an actuality. And any serious person concerned with the whole problem of living must question all this: how does disorder come about, what is the root of it? When we ask a question of this kind, you are asking the question, not the speaker. You are asking the question of yourself and trying to find out the root of this disorder. Is it desire? Is it that the very nature and the structure of thought itself is disorder? That is, thought itself is disorder. We are asking that question. Does disorder arise out of desire? Does disorder arise out of the very act of thinking? That is, is thought the source of disorder? Probably most of us have not even asked such a question. We accept and live in disorder; we say that is our condition, and we must accept that condition. And so we become used to disorder, accept it and try to modify it. But we never ask of ourselves why we live in disorder psychologically,inwardly, within the skin as it were, and what is the root of it, the very substance that brings about disorder. Is it desire? Desire in itself is contradictory: wanting one thing and resisting something else, desire for happiness and doing everything that brings about unhappiness. Pursuing pleasure, the desire for pleasure and that very desire creates disharmony. 所以，我们在问： 是否可能摆脱这种混乱——结束混乱， 从而这种结束本身就是秩序。 秩序就是美德。 你是不可能训练心灵去变得有序的。 因为那个渴望秩序的存在体， 那个存在体自己就是混乱的产物， 因此它所建立的无论什么秩序都必然会带来混乱。 我希望今天早上我们都是认真的， 就如我们一次又一次所指出的，这是一件严肃的事情。 生活正在变得如此极度的危险和不确定； 这是一个事实。 而任何关心生活这整个问题的认真的人 就必须质疑这一切： 混乱是如何产生的，它的根源是什么？ 当我们问了一个这样的问题时 ——是你在问这个问题，而不是讲话者。 是你自己在问这个问题， 并且努力去找到这种混乱的根源。 根源是欲望吗？ 是不是思想自身的本质 和结构本身就是混乱？ 也就是说，思想本身就是混乱。 我们在问这个问题。 混乱是产自于欲望吗？ 混乱是来自于思考本身吗？ 也就是说，思想是否就是混乱的源头？ 也许我们大多数人甚至从未问过这样的问题。 我们接受了混乱，并且生活在混乱中； 我们说这就是我们的局限，我们不得不接受那种局限。 于是我们变得习惯于混乱，我们接受了它并且试图去修正它。 但是我们从未问过自己为什么要活在这种混乱中——心理上的、 内在的、体肤之下的混乱—— 它的根源是什么，带来混乱的物质是什么。 它是欲望吗？ 欲望本身就是矛盾的： 想要一个东西，而抵抗其他东西， 渴望幸福，却在做着每一件 会带来不幸的事。 追求欢愉，渴望欢愉， 然而那种渴求本身却制造出了不和谐。
15:43 So we are asking, seriously: is desire itself the root, the origin, the beginning of disorder? And then – if it is, we are not saying it is, because we are enquiring, we are going deeply into this very, very complex problem of desire. Desire has great energy, drive – desire for so many things: for power, position, for wealth, for freedom, for heaven, desire to live happily, comfortably, and this desire accumulates itself into will. Will is the essence of desire. So we must enquire what is desire, which may bring about disorder. We desire to have food, that is quite natural. We desire to have a house, a shelter, that’s also quite natural; to be clothed, that is quite natural. But psychological desires – for power, position, to become something beyond what one actually is, to achieve some idealistic state – there are so many kinds of desire, contradicting each other, and sometimes working together. So we should very carefully go into the question of why and what is the origin of desire. And whether it brings about disorder. 所以我们非常认真地在问： 欲望本身是否就是混乱的根源、源头和起点？ 然后，如果它是的话 ——我们没有说它就是，因为我们是在探询， 我们正在深入探究这个非常非常复杂的欲望的问题。 欲望有着一种巨大的能量和驱动力 ——欲望有无数的对象： 渴望权力、地位，渴望财富、渴望自由、渴望天堂、 渴望幸福、安乐的生活， 而这种欲望不断自我积累而成为了意志。 意志就是欲望的本质。 所以我们必须去探究什么是欲望——或许就是欲望带来了混乱。 我们渴望食物，这是很自然的事； 我们渴望拥有一座房子，一个住所，这也是非常自然的； 想要有衣服穿，这是自然而然的。 但是对于那些心理上的欲望，渴望权力、地位， 渴望变成某种超越了真实的自己的东西， 渴望达到某种理想主义的状态。 我们有着如此多的各种欲望——它们互相矛盾， 有时候也会一起运作。 所以我们要非常小心地探讨这个问题， 那就是为什么会这样，欲望的源头是什么？ 是否是它带来了混乱？
18:51 Please, we are not telling you what desire is, and then with which you agree or disagree; we are having a conversation together, we are as two friends talking over together the very, very complex problem of desire. So you are enquiring, not the speaker. The speaker is only verbalising, putting into words the enquiry which you are making. And if your brain is not active, merely listening to what is being said, then, it’s a verbal communication which has very little meaning. Explanations are not the actuality. The speaker may explain very carefully, as we go into it in detail, but those explanations are verbal, have no meaning. But the verbal explanations are a means of your own discovery which the speaker is putting into words. I hope this is perfectly clear, that the speaker is not conveying certain ideas, certain conclusions, but rather together we are observing the whole movement of desire, the nature of it, the inwardness of it, the origin of the beginning of desire. 请注意，我们并不是在告诉你什么是欲望， 然后你对此表示同意或者不同意； 我们是在一起进行一场对话， 我们就像是两个朋友， 在一起讨论着这个非常非常复杂的欲望的问题。 所以是你在探询，而不是讲话者。 讲话者只是用词语把它表达出来， 把你所发出的质询用语言表达出来， 如果你的大脑没有活跃起来， 而仅仅是听一下对方所说的东西， 那么这就是一种没多大意义的文字交流了。 解释并不是事实。 在我们深入细节的过程中，讲话者可以非常仔细地解释， 但是这些解释是文字上，没有什么意义。 但是这种文字上的解释是你自己去发现的一种手段， 讲话者只是把它用语言表达出来。 我希望这点已经非常清楚了， 那就是讲话者并没有在向你传送某些理念、某些结论， 而是我们一起在观察欲望的整个运动， 它的本质、它的内在， 欲望开始的源头。
21:25 In all religions throughout the world – organised religions, the accepted, authoritarian, orthodox religions – they have all said, suppress or transmute desire, identify your desire with that which is great, with that which is the Saviour, with that which is something you want to achieve, identify yourself with it. And so gradually suppress any contradictory, any sensual desires. This has been the edict of all religions, monasteries are based on it, the monks pursue it and the Asiatic monks, the sanyasis, do it in their own way. So desire has been condemned. We are not condemning it. We are not saying it must be suppressed or transmuted, or play around with it. We are together going into this very complex problem, observing, without motive – that is the whole point, without motive – just what is desire, which drives most of us, both commercially and psychologically. Please, don’t wait for me to think it out, to explain, if you are serious, you are going to go into this. Because we have to find out, if we can, whether it is possible to live an orderly, sane, rational, a holy life; not this conflicting, destructive, warlike existence. So what is desire? Why has it such enormous power in our lives? As we said, order is virtue. To become virtuous is desire; to have values established is a form of desire. You may have values, patterns, ideas, and so on, but if we do not understand the very movement of desire, whether it’s contradictory, whether it’s the origin of disorder, we must enquire very, very deeply what is desire. Is not desire born out of sensation? Sensory responses are part of desire. Sensation. That is, through observation, through optical perception, seeing, then contact, then sensation. Right? One sees a beautiful house with a lovely garden, and that very seeing brings about a sensation, from that sensation, the desire to own that house. Right? That is, the seeing, then the contact, then from that physical contact – sensation. This is obvious. Right? Can we go on from there? You see a woman or a man who is nice, nice-looking, especially as it is advertised in this country; and there is the very seeing, then the contact, then the sensation. Then – please watch carefully yourself – then thought creates the image. When thought creates the image, then desire arises. Right? That is, one sees a shirt, a robe in the window of a shop, goes inside, touches the material, then the very contact of it creates a sensation, then thought says, how nice that shirt or robe would look on me. At that moment desire begins. Have you understood this? 在全世界所有的宗教中 ——那些组织化的宗教、公认的权威、传统的宗教—— 他们都说要压抑或转化欲望； 把你的欲望和伟大的事物认同起来， 和救世主认同起来， 和那个你想要达成的事物认同起来， 把你自己和它认同起来。 从而逐渐地抑制任何矛盾的、感官上的欲望。 这一直都是所有宗教的法令； 修道院就是以此为基础的； 修道士追求这些；而亚洲的僧侣、 托钵僧则以他们自己的方式在做这件事。 所以欲望一直遭到谴责。 而我们并没有谴责它。 我们并没有说它必须被抑制或者转化， 或者和欲望厮混在一起。 我们是一起在探讨这个非常复杂的问题， 没有动机，一起观察它——这就是重点所在：没有动机—— 只是去观察欲望是什么——欲望在驱使着我们大多数人， 不管是在商业上，还是在心理上。 拜托，请不要等我来思考，等我来解释， 如果你是认真的，你就会去探究它。 因为我们必须去发现——如果可以的话—— 是否可能去过一种有序、健全、理智、神圣的生活， 而不是这种冲突不断的、毁灭性的、充满战争威胁的生活。 所以什么是欲望？ 为什么它在我们的生活中具有如此巨大的力量？ 就如我们说过的，秩序就是美德。 而想要变得有美德就是欲望， 想要树立起价值观就是欲望的一种形式。 你或许有着各种价值观、各种模板、各种理念等等， 但是如果我们不了解欲望的运功本身 ——它是不是自相矛盾的，是不是混乱的源头—— 我们就必须非常深入地探询什么是欲望。 欲望难道不是来自于感官感受吗？ 感官反应就是欲望的一部分。 感官——也就是通过观察、 通过视觉上的感知、通过观看， 然后是触摸，然后就是感受。对吗？ 你看到了一座带着一个可爱花园的漂亮房子， 而这个观看本身就带来了一种感官感受， 从那种感受中，就产生了想要拥有那座房子的渴望。对吗？ 也就是说，先是看到，然后是接触， 然后从那种身体接触中——感官感觉就产生了。 这是显而易见的。对吗？我们可以从这里继续下去吗？ 你看到了一个女人或者一个男人他（她）风度翩翩，长得很好看， 特别是就像这个国家里广告上所展现的那样； 你看到了， 然后是接触，然后是感觉。 然后——请仔细观察你自己——然后思想就会描绘出一个画面； 而当思想创造出这个画面后，欲望就产生了。 对吗？ 也就是说，你看到商店的橱窗里摆放着一件衬衫、一件长袍， 于是你走进商店，触摸它的材质， 然后这种触碰就产生了一种感觉， 于是思想说，我要是穿上这件衬衫或长袍该是多么漂亮。 在那一刻欲望就产生了。你明白了吗？
29:05 Have we understood this clearly, that thought with its image creates desire when there is sensation. Right, sir? Are we together in this? And, if this is clear – don’t please accept what the speaker is saying, it may be totally wrong – but carefully look at this movement of desire, so that you yourself discover for yourself the whole nature of desire: how it begins, and whether disciplining desire is not the very act of confusion, disorder. Do you understand all this? Because in this there is the entity who controls desire, the entity who is separate from desire. Is desire itself not the observer, who wishes to change what he observes? I wonder if you see all this? May I go on with this? Please, sirs, don’t look at me. That’s not important. Find out for yourself the actuality of the beginning of desire. Not how to discipline desire – we’ll come to that presently. But we are just observing the whole movement of desire – the seeing, the contact, then the sensation, then thought creating the image which is the beginning of desire. I see your beautiful shirt, good material, well-made, then, if you’ll allow me to touch it, there is a certain sensation out of my sensory responses. Then I want that shirt. Thought says, how nice it would look on me, that shirt. That thought creating the image of me in that shirt is the beginning of desire. Clear? 我们是否清楚地明白了这点， 当有了感官感受时， 思想及其创造的画面，就制造出了欲望。 对吗，先生？ 我们达成共识了吗？ 如果这点清楚了 ——请不要接受讲话者说的话，它或许是完全错误的—— 而是小心翼翼地去观察这种欲望的运动， 这样你就可以自己去发现欲望的全部本质： 它是如何开始的， 以及克制欲望本身是否就是 混乱和失序的行为。 这些你都明白了吗？ 因为在这之中有一个在控制欲望的实体， 那个实体是和欲望分离的。 欲望本身难道不就是那个“观察者”， 那个希望去改变他所观之物的人吗？ 我不知道你是否看到了这一切？ 我可以继续下去吗？ 拜托，先生们，不要看着我。我并不重要。 你要自己去发现欲望开始的事实本身 ——而不是如何去克制欲望，这一点我们待会儿就会谈到。 我们只是在观察欲望的全部运动 ——看到、接触然后是感觉， 然后思想创造出一个画面——那就是欲望的起点。 我看到你身上漂亮的衬衫，质地精良、做工精致， 然后，如果你同意我摸一下它的话， 那么从我触摸它的感官反应中就会产生出某种感受。 于是我也想要一件这样的衬衫。 思想说，这件衬衫，要是我穿上它，将会是多么好看啊。 那个想法创造出了我穿上这件衬衫的画面 ——而这就是欲望的开始。清楚了吗？
33:04 Now, the question is, if that is so, which is logically so, there is no question of refuting that, that is a fact, not because the speaker says so, it is so. If you observe it, it is a movement. And then the question arises: why does thought interfere with sensation? You follow? I see you have got a marvellous car – that, I am quite sure, will appeal to all of you – a highly polished car. You see it on the road as you pass by, look at it, go round it, touch it; there is that sensation out of it. Then you imagine you sitting in the car and driving it. Then the imagination is the action of desire. Right? Is this clear? Now the question is: is it possible for thought not to interfere with its imagination? See that car, the sensation, and no thought creating the image of you being in there. You understand? That requires intense alertness, watchfulness. So there is no discipline, to control desire, but on the contrary, the intelligent observation of desire is in itself an act which frees the mind from the urgency of desire. 现在，问题就是，如果是这样的话——逻辑上看就是如此， 这是无可辩驳的， 这是一个事实，并不是因为讲话者这样说，它就是如此。 如果你观察一下，你会发现它是一种运动。 然后问题就出来了：为什么思想要过来干涉感受？ 你明白吗？ 我看到你有一辆豪华无比的汽车 ——我相信，我完全确信它对你们所有人都有吸引力： 一辆锃亮无比的汽车。 当你经过的时候，你看到它停在路边，你看着它，绕着它转几圈，然后摸一摸； 由此那种感觉就产生了。 然后你想象着自己正坐在这辆车里，驾驶着它。 而那种想象就是欲望的活动。 对吗？这点清楚了吗？ 而现在，问题就是： 思想可不可能不要带着它的想象干涉进来？ 看到那辆车，产生了感觉， 但不允许思想制造出那个你坐在车里的画面。 你明白吗？这需要高度的警觉和注意力。 所以并不存在克制——去控制欲望—— 恰恰相反， 那种对欲望智慧的观察本身就是一种行动， 它把心灵从欲望的冲动中解脱了出来。
35:30 I hope you understand all this, because we have got to talk about something much more complex. If this is understood, then we should go on to ask: what is fear? What is the origin of fear, whether the mind, the psychological state, can ever be free totally, completely, from fear. Not say, it is possible or it is not possible. If you say either one or the other, that conditions your own state of enquiry. But, if there is the intelligent demand whether the mind of a human being, his psyche, his consciousness, can ever be free, completely, not partially, not one day be free of fear, the next day full of fear, but the entire movement of fear, conscious as well as deeply-rooted fear: whether it is possible for the human mind to be utterly free of it. Because fear is one of the factors of disorder, not only desire, but also fear. Most human beings are afraid: either physical fears or psychological, complicated fears. Fears of not fulfilling, fears of not becoming, fears in their relationship, fears of not having jobs – especially now, in this country there are ten million people unemployed – fear of darkness, fear of death, fear of the very act of living. There are so many, many forms of fear. Naturally, as one observes fear, the state of fear as one goes into it, you can see how fear creates disorder – fear of being secure and not being secure, fear of the past, fear of the present, fear of the future, which we all know. Most of us have experienced some kind of fear, urgently, very deeply, or superficially. When one is afraid, the whole psychological state becomes tightened, strained, you know all that. And where there is fear there is darkness and escape from that darkness. Then the escape becomes far more important than the fear itself. But fear always remains. 我希望你明白了这一切， 因为我们不得不探讨某个更加复杂的东西。 如果这些你已经明白了， 那么我们接着就要问：恐惧是什么？ 恐惧的根源是什么？ 心灵、人的心理能否 彻底地、完全地摆脱恐惧。 不要说，这是可能的，或者这不可能。 如果你说了其中的某一个， 那将会限制你自身的探询。 但是如果有了一种智慧的要求， 那就是心灵，一个人，他的心智、他的意识， 能否获得自由——彻底的自由，而不是部分的， 不是某一天摆脱了恐惧，第二天又充满了恐惧， 而是摆脱恐惧的整个运动 ——既包括显意识的恐惧，也包括扎根于意识深处的恐惧： 人类的心灵是否可能彻底地摆脱它。 因为恐惧就是导致混乱的因素之一， 导致混乱的不只是欲望，也包括恐惧。 大多数的人类都在害怕着： 要么是生理上的恐惧，要么是心理上的、极其复杂的恐惧。 恐惧不能实现自我，恐惧无法成为什么， 恐惧他们的关系，恐惧没有工作 ——特别是如今在这个国家里， 有一千万人处于失业中—— 恐惧黑暗、恐惧死亡、恐惧生活本身。 有着如此多的、各种形式的恐惧。 很自然的，当一个人观察恐惧，观察恐惧的状态， 当你深入探究，你就会看到恐惧是如何制造出混乱的： 害怕变得安全，也害怕没有安全； 害怕过去、害怕现在、 害怕未来——这些我们都知道。 我们大多数人都经历过某种恐惧 ——急迫的恐惧，非常深层的恐惧，或者表面的恐惧。 当一个人害怕的时候， 他整个的心理状态都会变得紧绷、变得紧张 ——这些你都是知道的。 当有了恐惧， 就会有黑暗，以及对那种黑暗的逃避。 那时逃避就会变得远远比恐惧本身更加重要。 但是恐惧总是存在着。
40:04 So one asks, why human beings, who have lived on this earth for millions of years, who are technologically intelligent, why they have not applied their intelligence to be free from this very complex problem of fear. That may be one of the reasons for war, for killing each other. And religions throughout the world have not solved the problem, neither the gurus, nor the saviours, nor ideals. So if this is very clear: no outside agency, however elevated, however made popular by propaganda, no outside agency can ever possibly solve this problem of human fear. 所以我们问，为什么人类 ——他已经在这个地球上生活了数百万年， 他在技术领域是如此聪明—— 为什么他们无法运用自己的智慧 去摆脱这个极其复杂的恐惧问题。 恐惧或许就是导致战争、导致人类自相残杀的原因之一。 而全世界的宗教都未能解决这个问题； 也没有任何古鲁、任何救世主、任何理想能够解决它。 所以如果这点清楚了：没有外在的中介——不管他被抬得多高， 不管他通过宣传而变得多么受欢迎—— 没有任何一个外在的媒介可能解决人类的恐惧问题。
41:36 So we must find out – again, if one may repeat, you are enquiring, you are investigating, you are delving into the whole problem of fear. The speaker may only explain, but the explanation has no value unless you yourself go deeply into this question. And perhaps we have so accepted the pattern of fear that we don’t want even to move away from it. So, what is fear? What are the contributory factors that bring about fear? Like many small streams, rivulets that make the tremendous volume of a river, so what are the small streams that bring about fear, that have such tremendous vitality of fear? Is one of the causes of fear comparison? Comparing oneself with somebody else, psychologically. Obviously it is. So, can one live a life comparing yourself with nobody? You understand? When you compare yourself with another, ideologically, psychologically or even physically, there is the striving to become that, and there is the fear that you may not. It is the desire to fulfil and you may not be able to fulfil. You understand? Where there is comparison there must be fear. 所以我们必须去发现——如果我可以再重复一遍的话—— 是你在探询，是你在探究， 是你在深入研究关于恐惧的整个问题。 讲话者只能解释， 但解释是没有价值的， 除非你自己去深入探究这个问题。 或许我们已经完全接受了那种恐惧的模式， 以至于我们甚至都不想离开它。 所以，什么是恐惧？ 带来恐惧的促成因素是什么？ 就像无数的小溪、 河流汇聚成奔腾的江河一样， 所以那些带来了恐惧的， 有着如此巨大的恐惧力量的无数小溪是什么？ 恐惧的原因之一是不是就是比较？ 拿自己和其他人比较——心理上的比较。 很显然是的。 所以我们能否过一种不拿自己与任何人比较的生活？ 你明白我说的意思吗？ 当你拿自己与另一个人比较 ——思想上、心理上或者甚至是生理上的比较—— 那么你就会努力去变成那个样子， 于是就有了“你也许不能变成那样”的恐惧。 渴望去实现，而你或许无法去实现。 你明白了吗？当有了比较，就必然会有恐惧。
44:50 And so one enquires, asks whether it is possible to live without a single comparison, never comparing. Whether you are beautiful or ugly, fair or not fair, physically psychologically approximating yourself to some ideal, to some pattern of values, there is this constant comparison going on. We are asking: is that one of the causes of fear? Obviously. And where there is comparison there must be conformity, there must be imitation, inwardly. So we are asking: comparison, conformity, imitation – are they contributory causes of fear? And can one live without comparing, imitating, conforming psychologically? Obviously, one can. If those are the contributory factors of fear, and you are concerned with the ending of fear, then inwardly there is no comparison, which means there is no becoming. Right? Comparison entails – the very meaning of the comparison is to become that which you think is better, or higher, nobler and so on. So, comparison, imitation, conformity, which is becoming, is that one of the factors, or the factor of fear? We are not saying it is. But you have to discover it for yourself. Then if those are the factors, then if the mind is seeing those factors as bringing about fear, the very perception of those ends the contributory causes. Where there is a cause, there is an end. I hope you understand this. If there is physically a cause which gives you a tummy-ache, there is an ending of that tummy-ache by discovering what’s the cause of the pain. Similarly, where there is a cause there is an ending of that cause. 所以我们在探询，我们在发问： 是否可能没有丝毫比较地去生活？ 永远不去比较 ——不管你是美丽还是丑陋， 是漂亮还是不漂亮。在生理上以及心理上， 让自己去接近某个理想、某个价值体系， 这种持续不断的比较一直进行着。 我们问：这是不是导致恐惧的原因之一？ 很显然是的。 无论哪里有了比较，就必然会有遵从， 就必然会有模仿——内在的模仿。 所以我们问：比较、遵从、模仿 ——它们是促成恐惧的原因吗？ 我们可能在心理上没有比较、 模仿和遵从地去生活吗？ 很显然我们可以。 如果这些就是助长恐惧的因素， 那么你就会去关心恐惧的止息， 那时你的内心就不会有比较 ——那意味着不去变成什么。 对吗？比较就包含了—— 比较的意思就是变成那个 你认为更好的、更高的、更高尚的等等的东西。 所以比较、模仿、遵从——也就是变成什么—— 它们是不是恐惧的因素之一，或者就是恐惧的要素？ 我们并没有说它就是。 你必须自己去发现它。 如果你看到这些就是导致恐惧的因素， 如果心灵看到它们就是带来恐惧的因素， 那么这种察觉本身就会终结助长恐惧的原因。 只要有一个起因，就会有一个结束。 我希望你明白这一点。 如果有一个生理上的原因导致了你肚子痛， 那么这种肚子痛就可以结束 ——只要你找到引起肚子痛的原因。 同样的，当存在一个原因，也就存在那个原因的结束。
49:04 And, is time a factor of fear? That is, time as of the things or incidents or happenings that have taken place in the past, or that might happen in the future, and the present. Time is a movement, physically from here to that place, from one point to another point, a movement from one point to another point requires time. To learn a language requires time. To learn any form of technique requires time. But when we think about the future, what might happen – I have a job, I might lose it; my wife might run away, leave me – future. So is time – we are not talking of physical time, sunrise, sunset, movement of the watch, clock, chronological time – we are talking about psychological time. I am, I shall be and I might not be. So, is time a factor of fear? Not how to stop time, you can’t stop time, but to observe it first – we will go into it – but first observe the fact that one of the factors of fear is time. Let’s say I’m afraid of death – that’s in the future. So is time a factor of fear? Obviously it is. Then is thought a factor of fear? Do you understand all this? We said there are various contributory causes of fear – comparison, imitation, identification and this act of becoming something else – I am this, I must be that, and I may not be that, ever. And is time a factor in the movement of fear? Obviously it is. There is a distance between now, the living, and the dying, a distance from this point to that point. To move from this point to that point is fear. Right? Time is fear. 那么，时间是引起恐惧的一个因素吗？ 时间就是那些事情、事件或意外 ——它们过去曾经发生过， 也许在未来或此刻还会发生。 时间就是一种运动， 物理上从这里到那个地方， 从一个点达到另一个点， 从一个点到另一个点的运动需要时间。 学习一门语言需要时间。 学习任何一种技术都需要时间。 但是当我们考虑未来时，未来将会发生什么 ——我有一份工作，我或许会失去它； 我的妻子也许会跟别人跑掉，离开我——这些未来的事。 所以，时间是不是 ——我们谈的并不是物理上的时间：日出、日落、 手表和时钟指针的移动，年代顺序的时间； 而是在谈心理上的时间： 我是什么，我应该成为什么，我或许不能成为什么。 所以，时间是不是造成恐惧的一个因素？ 不是如何去停止时间，你是无法停止时间的， 而是首先去观察它——我们会探讨这点的—— 而是首先去观察那个事实， 也就是引起恐惧的因素之一就是时间。 比如说我害怕死亡。 死亡这件事是在未来的， 因此时间是不是就是恐惧的一个因素？ 很显然它是的。 那么思想是导致恐惧的因素之一吗？ 你理解这些了吗？ 我们说了，存在着各种促成恐惧的原因 ——比较、模仿、认同 以及这种去变成其他样子的行为： 我是这样的，我必须要变成那样，而我或许永远无法变成那样。 那么时间是恐惧的活动中的一个因素吗？ 很显然是的。 在此刻——也就是生活——和死亡之间有着一段距离， 一段从这个点到那个点的距离。 而从这个点移动到那个点就是恐惧。 对吗？时间就是恐惧。
53:33 So, next we are asking: is thought fear? It’s very important to find out. Is thought the root of fear? Time is the root of fear, obviously, as comparison and so on. And is thought also the root of fear? So, time and thought, are they not together? Are you following all this? Is this getting too complicated? Are you getting tired? It’s up to you. We are not trying to convince you of anything. We are not trying to ask you to follow the speaker. The speaker is you, the speaker is only pointing out the nature of fear. If you don’t see it for yourself, either your mind is dull because you have drunk too much last night, smoked too much, indulged in various forms of entertainment, sexual or otherwise; so your mind, your capacity, your energy is lacking, and therefore you’ll just listen, as a form of verbal entertainment, which will not affect your life. But if you are serious, if your brain is active, not just romantically watching the trees and, you know, playing with words. If you are really demanding to find out then you have to apply! Application means looking at it actually, now. Probably sitting here quietly under the trees you may not be afraid. But fear is going on unconsciously, deeply, whether you are aware of it or not now. 所以接下来我们要问：思想是恐惧吗？ 去发现这一点是非常重要的。 思想是恐惧的根源吗？ 时间是恐惧的根源，这显而易见——就像比较等等也是恐惧的根源一样， 那么思想是否同样也是恐惧的根源？ 所以时间和思想，它们难道不是在一起的吗？ 这些你都明白了吗？这是不是变得有点太复杂了？ 你累了吗？这取决于你。 我们并没有试图说服你任何东西。 我们并没有试图让你去追随这个讲话者。 这个讲话者就是你， 讲话者只是指出了恐惧的本质。 如果你没有自己看到它的话，要么你的心灵是迟钝的， 因为昨晚你喝多了，烟抽得太多了， 沉溺于各种形式的娱乐中——性方面的或者其他的； 所以你的心灵、你的能力、你的能量不足了， 因此你只会把这当作一种语言上的娱乐来听， 这不会对你的生活产生影响。 但如果你是认真的，如果你的大脑是活跃的 ——不是只怀着浪漫的情怀在观看那些树， 你知道的，玩弄那些辞藻。 如果你真的想要去发现， 那么你就必须去实施它。 实施就意味着实际地去观察恐惧——就在此刻。 或许在这里，你安静地坐在树下，并没有感到害怕。 但是恐惧正在潜意识里运作着，在内心深处活动着 ——不管你现在有没有意识到它。
56:33 So we have said time, becoming, comparison with all the implications of that, are the factors of fear. And we are asking now whether thought itself is not one of the factors or perhaps the very major factor of fear. What is then thought? Thought compares, thought imitates, thought says, I am this, I must be that. I must fulfil, I must identify myself, I must be something. It’s all the movement of thought. And thought itself may be disorder. We are enquiring, please, go into it. We are not trying to point out that thought must be controlled. See that thought may be probably the major factor of fear. I was healthy last year, and I am not this year but I hope to be in perfect health next year. There is in that movement the thinking about the pain of last year, hoping not to be this in the future, is the movement of fear – thought. Right? So what is thought? Not, can thought ever stop and let nature take its own course, but we are enquiring into what is thought, what is thinking. There are several factors in that too. Just look at it simply. When you are asked your name, you respond immediately. Why? Because you have repeated your name so often there is no thinking about it. You may have thought about it at one time, but the constant repetition of your name is without thinking. If you are asked a complicated question, then you are searching, thought is looking all over the place, enquiring till it finds an answer. And when you are asked a very, very complex question, or a question of which you have never even thought about, you say, I don’t know. Right? Very few people say, I don’t know. You understand? That requires a great sense of humility not to know, – we’ll go into it some other time, that’s not important now. 所以我们说了，时间、成为、 比较及其暗示所有的含义， 它们就是导致恐惧的因素。 而我们现在要问，思想本身是不是恐惧的因素之一， 或者它就是恐惧最主要的因素？ 那么思想是什么呢？ 思想在比较、思想在模仿、 思想在说，我是这样的，我必须变成那样。 我必须实现，我必须把自己认同为某物，我必须成为什么。 这些全部都是思想的运动。 而思想本身或许就是混乱。 我们是在询问，请你去探究它。 我们并没有试图指出思想必须要加以控制， 而是要看到思想也许是恐惧的因素之一，而且很可能是最主要的因素。 去年我很健康，但今年我的身体却不太好， 但是我希望明年我可以健健康康的。 在这种活动中有着那个思考去年的痛苦 然后希望未来不要这样的过程，这就是恐惧的运动——它就是思想。 对吗？那么什么是思想？ 不是说思想是不是永远无法停止，只能顺其自然， 而是我们要去探询什么是思想，什么是思考。 这里有若干个因素， 只是简单地来看一看。 当有人叫你的名字时，你就会立即反应。为什么？ 因为你如此频繁地重复你的名字， 所以也就不会去思考它了。 你也许曾经思考过， 但是在不断重复你的名字之中是没有思考的。 如果有人问了你一个很复杂的问题， 那么你就会去寻找，思想会到处去寻找、 去探询，直到它找到一个答案为止。 当有人问了你一个非常、非常复杂的问题， 或者一个你甚至从未思考过的问题时， 你会说，我不知道。对吗？ 但是极少有人会说，我不知道。 你明白了吗？ “不知道”需要一种巨大的谦卑感 ——这点我们改天再来探讨，现在它并不重要。
1:00:39 So what is thinking? Thought has created the extraordinary beautiful pictures, paintings, out of stone created something exquisite – the Pieta of Michelangelo, the great cathedrals. And also it created the submarines, the missiles, the atom bomb; thought has created the wars, the nationalities; thought has created all the rituals, religious rituals; thought has invented the Saviour; whether the Hindu saviour or the Christian saviour. So thought has done the most extraordinary things. The computer, which may take the place of human brain, and what’s going to happen to your brain when the computer does it? Which is again a different matter. 所以，什么是思考？ 思想已经创造出了非凡美丽的图画、绘画， 从一块石头中雕刻出优美高雅的事物 ——米开朗基罗的圣母怜子雕像，还有那些恢宏壮丽的大教堂。 但它同样也创造出了潜水艇、导弹、原子弹； 思想已经制造出了战争——世界大战、国家主义； 思想已经创造出了所有的仪式——那些宗教仪式； 思想发明出了救世主， 不管是印度教的救世主还是基督教的救世主。 所以思想已经做了最不可思议的事情。 发明了电脑——它或许能代替人类的大脑， 而当电脑能够代替大脑时，你的大脑又会怎么样 ——这又是另一件事了。
1:02:16 So we must find out what is thinking. Wether that thought itself may be the origin of disorder and fear. We give such extraordinary importance to thought, to the intellectuals, to the scientists, to the people who create marvellous technological things. But those very people who have invented all this, the great scientists, they themselves live in disorder. They have never possibly enquired into why thought is given such an extraordinarily important place and thought may be in itself the origin of disorder and fear. We are going to enquire. You are going to enquire, not the speaker. He may explain – I must repeat this over and over again; he may repeat but if you yourself don’t apply, go into it, your sitting there listening to the speaker is utterly meaningless. It is a waste of time and your energy. From the ancient of days man has experienced an accident, a sensation, a danger, a pleasure, and this experience has left knowledge. He derives from that experience knowledge. Right? That knowledge is stored in the brain as memory. And from that memory thought arises. Right? So, thought is limited because experience is limited, knowledge is limited. So thought is limited. Thought is a material process because experience is a material process. There is an accident in a car, and that experience is remembered, which is knowledge, the remembrance of it is pain, which is thought. Right? So thought is a movement, from experience, knowledge, memory, thought. Again there is no question of anybody disputing that fact. If you have no experience, if you have no knowledge, no memory, then you are not thinking, you are just in a state of amnesia. But we are supposed to be thinking human beings. 所以我们必须弄清楚什么是思考。 思想本身是不是就是混乱和恐惧的根源。 我们极度地重视思想、 重视智力、重视科学家， 重视那些创造出不可思议的科技成果的人。 但是那些发明这一切事物的人 ——那些伟大的科学家——他们自己也活在混乱中。 他们可能从来没有探询过 为什么思想被赋予了如此非同寻常的重要地位， 为什么思想本身或许就是混乱和恐惧的源头。 我们要一探究竟。 是你要去探询——而不是讲话者。 他或许可以解释——我必须一次又一次地重复讲； 他或许可以重复很多遍， 但是如果你自己不去实施它，不去深入它的话， 那么你坐在这里听讲话者说就是毫无意义的。 这是在浪费你的时间和精力。 从古代开始，人类经历了某个事件， 体验到了某种感觉、危险和快感， 而这种经验就留下了知识。 他从那些经验中获得了知识。对吗？ 那些知识储存在大脑中成为了记忆。 从那些记忆中就产生了思想。对吗？ 所以思想是有限的， 因为经验是有限的， 知识是有限的。 因此思想是有限的。 思想是一个物质的过程， 因为经验就是一个物质的过程。 出了一次车祸， 那种经验被记住了——这就是知识， 对这次车祸的回忆就是痛苦——这就是思想。 对吗？ 所以思想是一种运动 ——从经验开始，然后是知识、记忆，最后产生思想。 这个事实同样也是无可辩驳的。 如果你没有经验，如果你没有知识、没有记忆， 那么你就不会思考，你只会处于一种失忆状态中。 但我们自认为应该是有思想的人类。
1:06:32 So, knowledge is always limited – about anything. That is so. Thought has created the things in the cathedral, in the church, the rituals, and then thought worships them. You follow all this? Thought has created all the things that you call religious activity, thought has invented it. And then thought says, you must worship it. So one asks, thought is never sacred. It can never be sacred! But we have made certain things of thought sacred. Like God is an invention of thought. I know you won’t like this, but there it is. 所以知识总是在局限着一切事物。 就是这样。 思想已经创造出了大小教堂里的那些东西，创造出了那些仪式， 然后思想再去崇拜它们。你们明白这一切吗？ 思想已经创造出了所有你们称之为宗教活动的事物： 是思想发明了它们。 然后思想说，你必须去崇拜它们。 所以我问，思想从来都不是神圣的。 它永远不可能是神圣的。 但是我们已经把一些思想层面的东西变得神圣了。 就像上帝是一种思想的发明。 我知道你们不会喜欢这种说法，但它的确是。
1:08:05 And so, is thought the beginning, the origin of fear? Thinking about the future, thinking about some happiness which I have not, thinking about death, thinking I might become – paralysed, etc. I might have cancer. So thought, time, are the same. Time and thought are the same. And the contributory causes of all this is thought. Now, the question then is, if thought is the origin of all fear, and therefore all disorder, if thought is the origin of disorder, fear, then what is one to do? You cannot stop thinking, thinking has its place. When you leave here you go to your house, that movement from here to there is an action of time and thought. Thought and knowledge are necessary when you are writing a letter, speaking a language, driving a car, any technological business, thought and knowledge are absolutely necessary. But we are asking: the accumulation of knowledge about the psyche, about yourself, and thinking from that knowledge, is that necessary? You understand this question? Please give your thought a little bit, your attention a little bit. Is it necessary to record psychological events? The insult, the flattery, the hurts, the contents of your consciousness, which is nationality, fear, belief, faith, rituals, habits – you know, the content of your consciousness, which is the psyche, which is you. 所以，思想是恐惧的开始和源头吗？ 思考未来，思考我所没有的那些幸福， 思考死亡， 思考我也许会变成那样——瘫痪在床，等等。 我或许会得癌症。 所以思想、时间是一样的。时间和思想是一回事。 而促成这一切的原因就是思想。 那么，现在的问题就是，如果思想是所有恐惧的源头， 因此也就是所有混乱的源头， 如果思想是混乱、恐惧的源头，那么我该怎么办？ 你是无法停止思考的， 思考有其恰当的位置。 当你离开这里后，你会回家， 从这里到你家的运动就是一种时间和思想的活动。 思想和知识是必需的——当你写信的时候， 当你说一门语言或者开车的时候，任何技术上的事情等等。 思想和知识是必不可少的。 但我们在问： 积累那些关于心智的知识、关于自己的知识， 然后从那些知识中去思考——这有必要吗？ 你明白这个问题吗？ 请稍微思考一下、关注一下这个问题。 有必要去记录心理上的事件吗？ 那些侮辱、奉承、伤害， 那些你意识中的内容， 也就是国籍、恐惧、信仰、信念、仪式、习惯 ——你知道的，那些你意识中的内容， 它们就是心智，就是你。
1:11:45 Can there be no psychological recording? Please ask yourself this question. Perhaps you have never asked it, because we record. You record an insult, you record a flattery. You record the hurts that one has received from childhood. You record your pleasurable activities, you record your fears. So is it possible for a brain to record what is necessary – that is, learning a language, doing business, being a good carpenter, engineer and so on – there you need to record everything very clearly, scientifically, and so on. But is it necessary to record psychological events, do you understand? That is, to carry psychological burdens all your life, psychological problems all your life: the conflicts, the misery, the confusion, the agony, the loneliness, the despair. Is it necessary to carry all that – which are the activity of thought? To find that out, whether it is possible not to record at all psychologically, that means to have no problem, you understand, sir? Fear is a problem to us. Order is a problem to us. Not to be something is a problem to us. Our life is a bundle of problems, both psychosomatic, physical, psychological, the whole thing, living is a problem to us. Which is the recording of everything, pleasure, pain, the loneliness, the fears and so on. We are asking: can the brain not record the incidents of fear? That is, to be aware of the whole pattern of fear, which is very complex, as we pointed out, it is very complex and intricate and one has to observe it very subtly, tentatively, sensitively. 能不能没有心理上的记录？ 请问问你自己这个问题。 或许你从未问过，因为我们一直在记录。 你记下侮辱、记下奉承、 记下伤害——那些从小就开始的伤害； 你记下那些令你快乐的活动，记下你的恐惧。 所以对大脑来说，可不可能只记录那些必要的事物 ——也就是，学习一门语言，做生意， 成为一个优秀的木匠等等，成为一个工程师，等等， 在这些事情上，你需要记下每一样东西，非常清楚地、 科学地去记录，等等。 然而是否有必要去记录那些心理上的事件？ 你明白吗？ 也就是，一辈子都背负着那些心理上的重担， 背负着那些心理上的问题：冲突、痛苦、 困惑、苦恼、孤独、绝望。 是否有必要携带着所有这些思想的活动？ 去搞清楚这一点， 是否可能在心理上完全不去记录 ——那意味着不再有任何问题，你理解了吗，先生？ 恐惧对我们来说是一个问题， 秩序对我们来说是一个问题， 无法成为什么对我们来说也是一个问题， 所以我们的生活就是一大堆问题 ——身心上，既包括身体上的，也包括心理上的， 全部这些事情，生活对我们来说就是一个问题。 它记录着每一件事 ——欢愉、痛苦、孤独、恐惧等等。 而我们问：大脑能否不去记录恐惧的事件？ 也就是说，去觉察恐惧的整个模式 ——就如我们所指出的，它是非常复杂的， 它错综复杂， 而我们必须非常细心地、尝试性地、敏锐地去观察它。
1:15:35 Then if you observe it carefully, is the observer different from that which he observes? What he observes is himself, the observer is the observed. Where there is a division between the observer and the observed, there is conflict. Now, with the observer, which is the past accumulation of knowledge observing the present fear, there is a division, and then the past tries to overcome the present, control it. Whereas the thing that is observed is the observer. When that is absolutely clear conflict ceases. Therefore where there is the observation of fear as me – I am fear, obviously, there is no division between me and fear, I am totally fear, not that there is part of me which is not fear, I am that. And when there is total perception of that, which means giving all your energy to that, there is complete cessation of fear. There is the total ending of psychological fears – completely, not for a day. But that which is ended has a new beginning. 如果你仔细地观察它， 那么观察者和他所观察的事物是不同的吗？ 他观察的是他自己，观察者就是那个被观之物。 无论哪里当有了这种观察者和被观者之间的区分， 冲突就会产生。 现在来看，观察者——他就是过去知识的积累—— 他在观察着此刻的恐惧， 这里就有着一种区分， 然后那个过去试图去战胜现在，去控制它。 然而那个被观察的事物就是观察者。 这点彻底搞清楚以后，冲突就停止了。 因此，当有了那种“我即是恐惧”的观察 ——我就是恐惧，这显而易见， 我和恐惧并没有什么区别，我完全就是恐惧， 并不是说我身上有一部分不是恐惧，而是我就是那个恐惧。 当你完全感知到了这一点 ——那意味着把你所有的能量倾注其中—— 那么恐惧就会彻底止息。 心理上的恐惧会完全地、彻底地停止 ——不只是停止一两天。 结束的事物才会有一个新的开始。
1:17:36 Right, sir! May I get up now? 好了，先生！ 我可以起来了吗？