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OJ82T5 - 只要有悲伤，就没有爱
第五次公开讲话
美国，加州，欧亥
1982年5月15日



1:11 We’ll continue, if we may, with what we were talking about last Saturday. Some of you probably were not here, so may I briefly restate what we were talking about. One would like to point out, if one may, that this is not an entertainment. Most people are used to being entertained, sustained by somebody else’s words, actions and so on. This is not a lecture, as is commonly understood. Nor are we trying to direct or tell you what to do, this is not a propaganda. But we are thinking together, which is a rather difficult problem, because each one wants to think in his own particular way, from his own point of view, and so on. But here, during these last four talks, we were saying how important it is that we should think together. The capacity to think – not about something, that comes a little later – but to think, which is to observe what is actually going on outside in the world, and also to be aware of all the difficulties, the psychological travail that one has, and to discover for oneself the relationship between the so-called individual and his activity psychologically and the world. 如果可以的话，我们将接着 我们上星期六所讲的内容继续谈下去。 你们中的一些人或许之前没来过， 所以我是否可以简要地重复一下我们之前所讲的内容。 我想要指出——如果可以的话—— 这并不是一场娱乐活动， 大多数的人都习惯于被娱乐 ——用其他人的话语、行为等等来维持这种娱乐。 这不是一次讲座——人们通常所理解的那种讲座。 我们也没有试图去指导或者告诉你该怎么做， 这不是一次宣传活动。 而是我们一起去思考——这是相当困难的， 因为每个人都想要以他特有的方式来思考， 从他自身的观点出发去思考，等等。 但是在这里，在过去的四次谈话里， 我们说过了一起去思考是多么的重要。 那种思考的能力——不是思考某个东西， 这是之后的事情了——而是去思考， 也就是去观察这个世界上外在所实际发生的那些事情， 同样也觉察到我们身上所有的困境， 以及心理上的极度痛苦， 然后自己去发现两者之间的关系 ——也就是所谓的个体 和他的心理活动与这个世界的关系。
4:06 We were saying also, this outward society which has become so dangerous, so insecure, is the result of our own daily activities. Perhaps the past generations have added to it, but we are responsible actually for all that is taking place in the world. And also we pointed out that our consciousness, that is, the consciousness of each so-called individual, what he thinks, what he believes, his feelings, his despairs, his loneliness, his fears, his pleasures, his enjoyments, his peculiar form of worship – those are the content of our consciousness. And this consciousness is common, if one may use that word ‘common’, to all mankind. Wherever you go in this marvellous earth, which you are slowly destroying, wherever one goes – even if you go as a tourist – there is this problem for all human beings: they suffer, they go through great agonies, the fear of loneliness, not being able to stand alone, their form of worship, their beliefs, their gods, just like in the West. So, as we pointed out, when you go into this question very deeply, this consciousness, which each one of us thinks that it is ours, our special property, is the common property of mankind. So consciously, deeply, we are not individuals – though all religions, all society, all families and so on, have maintained that we are separate individuals with our own peculiar tendencies, capacities, outward forms, name and so on. We are rest of mankind, therefore we are mankind. We are the world and the world is us. This is not a peculiar, exotic theory, something as an ideal, but an actual psychological fact. Whether you like it or not, this is a fact. Because you suffer, and the Asiatics also suffer, you have your many problems and so have they. You are a nationalist, and so are they, you want security, permanency, endurance, continuity, so do they. 我们同样也说了，这个外在的社会 ——它已经变得如此危险、如此不安全—— 它就是我们自己日常活动的结果； 或许过去世世代代的人也促成了它， 但实际上我们要对 这个世界正在发生的一切负责。 我们也指出了 我们的意识， 也就是，每一个所谓个体的意识， 他所想、所信仰的东西，他的感受、他的绝望、 他的孤独、他的恐惧、他的欢愉、他的乐趣、 他特有的崇拜方式，等等 ——这些就是我们意识的内容。 而这种意识是共同的 ——如果我可以使用“共同”这个词来指全人类的话。 无论你去这个神奇地球的任何地方， ——这个你正在慢慢摧毁的地球—— 无论你去哪里，即使你只是作为一个游客， 你会发现全人类都有这个问题： 他们痛苦，他们经受着巨大的苦恼， 害怕孤独，害怕无法独立， 他们的崇拜方式、 他们的信仰、他们的神明，等等——就像西方人一样。 所以，就如我们所指出的， 当你非常深入地探究这个问题，就会发现 这个意识——我们每个人都认为它是属于我们自己的， 我们特有的品性—— 实际上是全人类共同的品性。 所以从意识层面上、从深层来讲，我们并不是个体， 虽然所有的宗教、所有的社会、所有的家庭等等 都坚持认为我们是独立的个体 ——有着自己特定的癖好、能力、 外表、名字等等。 我们就是其他人类， 所以我们就是全人类。 我们就是世界，世界就是我们。 这并不是一个奇怪的、异乎寻常的理论， 或者类似理想的东西，而是一个千真万确的心理事实； 不管你是否喜欢它，它是一个事实。 因为你在受苦，而那些亚洲人同样也在受苦； 你们有着无数问题，他们也一样； 你是一个国家主义者，他们也是； 你们想要安全、永恒、 持久、延续，他们也想要。
8:24 So the illusion that we are, in our consciousness, separate individuals, is not a fact. And when one realises that, not as an idea, not as an idealistic concept, something that we have to strive after, but rather that this is the ground on which all human beings throughout the world stand. 所以我们意识中认为自己是 独立个体的错觉，并不是一个事实。 当一个人意识到这点——不是作为一个观点， 不是作为一种理想主义的概念， 某个我们必须努力达到的东西， 而是它就是全世界所有人类 共同的立足点。
9:07 And also we were pointing out that in our relationship with each other, intimate or otherwise, man or woman, there is a great deal of strife, great deal of misunderstanding, contradiction, each one psychologically going his own way, pursuing his own ambition or her fulfilment, and so on. Like two parallel lines never meeting, perhaps sexually. And also we were pointing out the nature of fear, the various forms of fear and whether human beings who have carried this terrible burden of fear for millennia upon millennia, can ever be free of it completely. We went into it very deeply, step by step, and it is possible – not a theory, not a goal – but it is possible actually to be totally completely free of psychological fears. 我们同样也指出了：在我们彼此之间的关系中 ——亲密的或者不亲密的，男人或者女人的关系中—— 都有着无数的冲突，无数的误解、 矛盾，每一个人都在心理上各走各路， 追求着他自己的野心或者她的成就，等等。 就像两条永不相交的平行线 ——或许在性方面会有交集。 我们也指出了恐惧的本质， 各种形式的恐惧， 以及人类——人类已经背负着 恐惧的沉重负担几千年了—— 是否有可能彻底地摆脱它。 我们非常深入地、一步步地探究了这个问题， 然后发现那是可能的——这不是一个理论、一个目标，而是确实可能 彻底地、完全地摆脱心理上的恐惧。
10:41 And also we talked about the pursuit of pleasure. More and more in this world, outwardly, various forms of entertainment, both religious as well as the various facts of entertainment, football, and so on. And we are also pointing out how mechanical we are becoming, repeating the same thing over and over and over again, which is what the computer is doing. It may do it more rapidly, more efficiently, more widely. But our own minds, our own feelings, are repetitive. 我们同样也谈到了对欢愉的追求。 这个世界有着越来越多对欢愉的追求，外在上， 我们有着各种形式的娱乐 ——既包括宗教上的，也包括各种娱乐消遣活动， 足球，等等。 我们同样也指出了我们正在变得多么机械化， 一遍一遍又一遍地重复着同样的事情 ——这是电脑做的事， 它或许可以做得更快、更高效、范围更广， 然而我们自己的心灵，我们自己的感受，却是重复性的。
11:59 So we are going to talk about this morning, if you will permit it, why is it that we human beings who have lived on this earth for over a million years or more, why we have become what we are: brutal, violent, contradictory, killing each other in the name of God, in the name of country, in the name of peace. There used to be a slogan, after the First World War, which said, ‘This War – like the next war – is to end all wars’. And this repetitive process of killing each other has been going on, though we are highly educated, technologically we are extraordinarily efficient, but psychologically we are very, very primitive. And we were saying, why is it that we do not change? Why is it that there is no end to all this terrible individualistic, competitive drive, which is destroying the world? 所以今天早上我们要来讨论——如果你们允许的话—— 为什么我们人类， 这个已经在地球上生存了超过一百万年的人类， 为什么我们变成了这个样子： 野蛮、暴力、矛盾， 自相残杀——以上帝的名义，以国家的名义， 以和平的名义。 曾经有一条标语——第一次世界大战之后——说， “这场战争（好像指下一次战争）将会结束所有的战争”。 而这种彼此杀戮的过程一直在进行着， 虽然我们受过高等教育， 在技术上我们是无比高效的， 但是在心理上，我们仍是非常、非常原始的。 而我们问，为什么我们不改变？ 为什么所有这些可怕的个人主义的、 竞争性的内驱力 ——它们正在摧毁这个世界——永远无法停止？
14:06 And we are going to talk about together the nature of what we consider love. This has been a question that has existed among the ancient Egyptians, the ancient Hindus, and recently the Christian world and the Islamic concept. They have all preached, talked about loving your neighbour, and so on. This has been asserted, religiously, in all the countries, but apparently we have never come to realise what it is. We talk a great deal about it, books are written, we have created a God, or gods and we love that God, or gods; we don’t know exactly the nature of that beauty. So – though we went into it briefly the other day – we ought to go into this question very deeply. Is it mere sensory responses, sexual pleasure? Please, as we said, this is not a talk, this is not the speaker asserting any point of view, but we are together examining – please, I’ll repeat over again – together we are enquiring into the nature of what one calls love. 我们还要一起讨论 我们所认为的那种爱的本质。 这是一个长久以来的问题——它存在于古代的埃及人之中， 古代的印度人之中， 也存在于后来的基督教世界和伊斯兰教的理念中； 他们都在宣扬、 谈论着爱你的邻居，等等这些。 所有国家的宗教一直都在宣扬这一点， 但是很显然，我们从未意识到它是什么。 我们大量地谈论它，写了无数本书， 但我们已经制造出了一个上帝，或者一堆神明， 然后我们爱那个上帝，爱那些神明； 我们并没有完全懂得那种美的本质。 所以我们应该——虽然我们已经在前几天简要探讨过了—— 我们还是应该非常深刻地探讨这个问题。 爱仅仅是感官的反应、性的欢愉吗？ 请注意，就如我们所说的，这并不是一次演讲， 讲话者并没有主张任何观点， 而是我们在一起检视 ——不好意思，我要再重申一次——是一起， 我们是一起在探询我们称之为爱的那个事物的本质。
17:00 So one must ask oneself whether it is mere sensory, sexual responses, which more and more, in the Western world and now which is creeping into the Eastern world, it has been turned into pleasure. Is love pleasure? A form of entertainment? A thing which demands some kind of sensory fulfilment? Is it desire? We went into the question of what is desire, very carefully. How desire arises and the demand of its fulfilment. When there is no fulfilment, there is frustration and all the neurotic activities of unfulfilled desire. We went into that. It would be unnecessary – if you have come for the first time, one hopes that you will not mind if we will not go into it again. 所以我们必须问问自己， 爱是否仅仅是感官的、性方面的反应 ——西方世界已经越来越是如此了， 而现在它也逐渐蔓延到了东方世界， 爱已经变成了欢愉。 爱是欢愉吗？爱是一种消遣的形式吗？ 爱是一个需要某种感官满足的东西吗？ 爱是欲望吗？ 我们已经非常小心地探究了什么是欲望的问题； 欲望是如何出现的，以及想要欲望满足的要求。 当欲望无法满足，就会产生挫折 和所有那些由未满足的欲望所带来的神经质的行为。 我们已经探讨过了， 再说就没必要了——如果你是第一次来， 我希望你们并不介意——如果我们不再复述的话。
18:50 So is love desire? If it is, then all the complications, frustrations, the demand for its fulfilment, with all the conflicts that arise – so is love conflict? Please, one must repeat this again, you are asking these questions, not the speaker. The speaker is merely pointing out, which you yourself are examining, not merely verbally, intellectually, as a thing passing by, but actually in daily life. Is love a movement which has continuity in pleasure and desire? You are asking the question. And why is it pleasure has become so extraordinarily important in the world? The whole entertainment industry, so-called sports, and, if you will forgive also, the religious entertainment, which is considered sacred; these are the various forms of pleasure. So one asks, is love a movement, an endless movement of pleasure? Is love attachment? Attachment to a belief, to a concept, to knowledge, to a person, or to a symbol. In attachment there is fear, with all the agony of being alone. So if one sees the consequences of attachment – one is attached to the country, to the flag, as everyone in the world is doing that, the separative, symbolic flag. The Asiatics have their own flags, to which they are terribly attached, as in this country, for which you are willing to kill each other, which is what is happening now. And we say, that’s a principle, a principle that a country which has become aggressive must be pushed back, and so we are willing to kill others. This has been the old repetition from the most ancient of days. And every religion, the most ancient ones and the recent ones of 2000 years, have always said, love, do not kill. But our pleasure overcomes this edict. 所以，爱是欲望吗？ 如果它是的话，那么所有的麻烦、挫折、 得到满足的需要以及所有的冲突都会产生 ——那么爱是冲突吗？ 请注意，我必须再重复一遍： 是你在问这些问题，而不是讲话者。 讲话者仅仅是指出了一些东西——而你要自己去检查这些东西， 不仅仅是口头上的、智力上的检查 ——把它作为一个擦肩而过的东西——而是在日常生活中实际地检查它。 爱是一种 在欢愉和欲望中延续自己的活动吗？ 你在问这个问题。 为什么欢愉已经变成 这个世界上无比重要的东西？ 整个娱乐产业，那些所谓的体育比赛， 还有——请恕我冒昧—— 还包括那些被认为是神圣的宗教娱乐； 这些都是各种不同形式的欢愉。 所以我们问，爱是一种运动、 一种无止境的寻求欢愉的活动吗？ 爱是依恋吗？ 依恋一个信仰、一个概念， 依恋知识、依恋一个人或者一个符号。 在依恋中就有着恐惧， 以及所有那些孤独的痛苦。 所以如果一个人看到依恋的后果： 我们依恋国家、依恋旗帜， ——世界上每一个人都在做这样的事—— 依恋那些分裂性的、象征性的旗帜； 亚洲人也有他们自己的旗帜， 他们无比依恋自己的旗帜——就像在这个国家一样， 为了它你们愿意去自相残杀，这就是正在发生的事。 而我们说，这是一个原则， 这个原则就是一个有侵略行为的国家 必须被击退， 因此我们愿意杀戮他人。 从最古老的时代开始人类就一直重复着这种模式。 而每一个宗教， 从最古老的宗教到最近两千年来的宗教 一直都在说，要爱，不要杀戮。 但是我们的欢愉战胜了这个律条。
24:02 So one must, if one is at all serious in our relationship to each other, man and woman, relationship with the rest of humanity, whether they’re black, white or purple or whatever colour they be, in that relationship, why is there so much conflict? Is it that in that relationship we seek security, safety? And this search for security in relationship, and naturally, fulfilment in that relationship – is that love? So, please, enquire. Let us enquire together into this question very deeply. If all that is not love – the attachments, the desire to fulfil, the urge and the fear of being alone, lonely, all that – if all that is not love, like jealousy, hate, arrogance, pride, all that is not love, can it be ended? This is really quite a serious problem, because we never end anything, come to an end. But we want, where there is ending, a replacement. If I give up this, what will I have? 所以我们必须——如果我们的确很认真的话—— 在我们彼此的关系中： 男人和女人，以及和其他人的关系中 ——不管他们皮肤是黑、是白、是紫或者别的什么颜色—— 在那种关系中，为什么会有如此多的冲突？ 是不是因为我们在那种关系中寻找着安全和保障？ 我们在关系中寻找着安全感， 自然也会在关系中寻求满足感——但这是爱吗？ 所以，拜托，请你去询问； 让我们一起非常深入地探询这个问题。 如果这一切都不是爱： 那些依恋，想要满足的渴望， 那些强烈的欲望，害怕孤独和寂寞，所有这些， 如果所有这些都不是爱——比如嫉妒、憎恨、自大和骄傲—— 如果这一切都不是爱，那么它可以结束吗？ 这真的是一个非常严肃的问题， 因为我们从来没有结束过任何东西，从没有结束过； 每当结束了一个，我们就想要一个替代品。 如果我放弃了它，我会拥有什么呢？
26:37 The question of ending a particular problem is really quite important – the ending. Because after all, as we are going to discuss a little later, the ending of life is called death. There you cannot argue, you cannot carry over anything, there is total ending of your memories, attachments, and so on. So one should enquire most seriously if there is an ending – not finding a substitution, not demanding a guarantee that if there is an ending of this, will there be that. So we ought to enquire very deeply, as we said, can all the things which are false, like pride, arrogance, attachment, and the desires, pleasures, and so on, which obviously are not love – can all that end? Because without love in life, the perfume, the passion, the depth of life is lost. Life becomes very, very superficial, very mundane, worldly. Which is what most of the world is becoming more and more because we have never found out for ourselves what it is to love another. Love is not a remembrance of past events and past pleasures; love is not knowledge. But yet knowledge has played an extraordinary part in our life. Because there are all the scientists and the biologists saying that the ascent of man is only through knowledge. We so easily accept what the professionals say, we never enquire for ourselves. It’s one of the calamities, I think – one may be wrong – that books have become so important, what other people have said and written: all the professionals, psychologists. We're not talking of the professionals in the technological world, but the psychological professionals, who have accumulated a great deal of knowledge about other human beings, and that knowledge, will knowledge transform man? Transform totally, completely the nature of his consciousness, not partially, not here and there, little less fear, little more kindly, little more generous, less conflict, but will this knowledge that man has acquired through many, many centuries about the psyche, about the various divisions in consciousness, will knowledge, that is, the accumulated information and accumulated experience, will that knowledge transform the whole content of man, content of his consciousness? Please, ask this question of yourself. 结束某个特定问题，这个问题 真的非常重要：结束。 因为归根结底——就像我们过一会儿会讨论的—— 生命的结束就被称为死亡。 这点是你无法辩驳的，你无法留下任何东西， 一切都彻底结束了——你的记忆、你的依恋等等。 所以我们应该非常认真地探询 是否能有一个结束——而不是去找一个替代品； 不是去要求一个保证：如果这个结束了， 就一定会有那个。 所以我们应该非常深入地探究——就如我们所说的—— 所有那些错误的事物， 像骄傲、自大、依恋、 欲望、欢愉等等——这些很显然都不是爱—— 这一切能结束吗？ 因为如果生命中没有爱，那么生命就会失去它的芬芳、热情 和深度。 生命就会变得非常非常肤浅、 平庸和世俗 ——世界上大部分人正变得越来越如此了。 因为我们从来没有自己去发现什么才是爱别人。 爱并不是一种对过去事件和欢愉的回忆， 爱并不是知识。 然而知识已经在我们的生活中扮演了一个非同寻常的角色， 因为所有的科学家和生物学家等等 都在说人类只有通过知识才能提升。 我们是如此轻易地接受了那些专家的话， 从来没有自己去探究过。 我认为这就是我们的灾难之一——我也许是错的—— 那就是书本已经变得如此重要， 别人所说的话和写下的东西 ——所有那些专家和心理学家。 我们说的专家并不是 那些技术领域里的专家， 而是那些心理学的专家 ——他们已经积累起了很多关于自己的知识， 关于其他人类的知识， 而那些知识——知识能转变人类吗？ 完全地、彻底地转变他意识的本质 ——不是局部的，这里或者那里修改一下， 少一点恐惧，多一点友善，多一点慷慨，少一点冲突—— 而是这种知识，人类 无数世纪以来所获得的关于心智的、 关于意识的各种不同种类的知识 ——知识，也就是那些积累起来的信息 和积累起来的经验， 那种知识可以转变人类的全部内容吗？ 可以转变他意识的内容吗？ 拜托，问问你自己这个问题。
32:41 You have studied, you have enquired about yourself, or you have been told by other psychologists what you are, and you have accumulated knowledge about yourself, perhaps not too much, but a little. And has that knowledge – knowledge being always of the past – whether that knowledge has transformed man? Or a totally different kind of energy, totally different kind of activity – or non-activity – will that bring about transformation in consciousness? Because this is again important to understand and go into. 你已经研究过了，你已经探究过你自己， 或者其他的心理学家已经告诉了你你是什么， 你已经积累了关于你自己的知识， 或许不是很多，但还是有那么一些的。 而那种知识——知识总是属于过去的—— 那种知识是否能转变人类， 还是说要有一种完全不同的能量， 完全不同的行动，或者“无为” 才能带来意识的转变？ 因为理解并且探究这一点同样也是很重要的。
33:56 There are those who say, man is conditioned, you cannot possibly transform that conditioning. A whole philosophy, a whole school exists believing that, asserting it, writing all about it, by very, very clever people. And, if it cannot possibly be transformed, then we will perpetually live in conflict, live in contradiction, continue in neuroticism of various kinds. So, is knowledge of one’s wife going to transform the conflict that exists between man and woman? 有一些人说，人类是局限的； 你是不可能转变那种局限的。 现存的整个哲学、所有流派都相信这一点，宣称这一点， 写了所有相关的东西——一些非常非常聪明的人写的。 而如果它不可能被转变的话， 那么我们就将永远地活在冲突、 矛盾中，继续着各种各样的神经质了。 所以，关于自己妻子的知识能够转变 那种存在于男人和女人之间的冲突吗？
35:14 So one has to ask, what place has knowledge? All that you have learned in school, college, university, your own personal experiences, the accumulated reservoir of memory we store in the brain, which is the past. Meeting the present, it may modify itself and continue in that modified form, in time as the future. So we are asking, has that knowledge brought about deep change in human beings so that they will not kill, so that there is no fear whatsoever psychologically, so that human beings have this extraordinary capacity to love another? And has not knowledge become a barrier to love? Please, do enquire into all this. So can there be ending to all the things that prevent that perfume? And it cannot be brought about through conflict, through struggle, through the assertion of will. For, after all, will is summation of desire, the essence of desire. 所以我们必须问一下，知识具有怎样的位置？ 你在小学、中学、大学里所学到的所有那些东西， 你自己的个人经历， 那个积累着记忆的仓库， 我们把这些都储存在大脑里， 它们就是过去，当它们遭遇了现在，或许会修改一下自己， 然后以修正后的形式，作为未来在时间中延续下去。 所以我们说的是，问的是：知识能否 给人类带来深刻的改变， 由此他们便不会去杀戮， 由此便不会有任何心理上的恐惧， 由此人类便能拥有这种 能够爱别人的非凡能力？ 知识是不是已经变成了爱的一种阻碍？ 拜托，请真的去探究这一切。 因此，能不能结束所有这些 阻止了那种芬芳的事物？ 而这无法通过冲突、通过斗争得来， 无法通过意志力的主张而来， 因为毕竟，意志就是欲望的总和、欲望的实质。
37:57 And also we should talk over together one of the most complex and apparently endless: suffering. Suffering, not only separative, individualistic, personal suffering, but also the suffering of mankind. There have been so many wars, practically every year, throughout the world for the last five thousand years and more. War, that means every year killing, killing, killing. How many millions have suffered, shed tears, felt the flame of loneliness, and yet we do not apparently use our intelligence to stop this cruelty, this bestiality of violence, which we talked about too the other day. So there is suffering, both physically and non-physically. The understanding of suffering non-physically will help physical suffering. 而我们也应该一起来讨论 某个极为复杂并且很显然是永无尽头的问题——痛苦。 痛苦——不仅是分离的、个体的、个人的痛苦， 同样也包括人类的痛苦。 人类一直有着如此多的战争， 在过去的五千多年里，全世界几乎每一年都有战争。 战争——它意味着每一年不停地杀戮、杀戮、杀戮， 数百万的人遭受着痛苦，以泪洗面， 感受着孤独的灼烧， 然而我们很明显还没有 运用我们的智慧去制止这种残忍、 这种暴力的兽行——这个我们前几天也讨论过了。 所以存在着痛苦 ——既包括生理上的，也包括非生理上的。 了解心理上的痛苦 将会帮助解决生理上的痛苦。
39:57 So we must first enquire together into the nature of suffering: why human beings, psychologically, inwardly, go through agonies. This enquiry is not cynical or sadistic, but one must enquire whether suffering, psychologically, can end. Is that question self-motivated? Is that question irrelevant? Because we are inflicting, human beings are inflicting psychologically a great deal of suffering on others. We get hurt, deeply, – which we talked about at the beginning of these talks – that’s also suffering, and the consequences of being hurt psychologically, we went into it, the resistance, the isolation, fears, and so on. And in the Christian world suffering has been avoided in the worship of a symbol, but suffering still exists. In the Asiatic world they have all kinds of explanations for suffering, but yet they suffer. Apparently there is no end to suffering, the human sorrow, the human pain, the grief, that seems to have no end. 所以我们首先必须一起去探询 痛苦的本质：为什么人类 在心理上，在内在会经历这些痛苦折磨？ 这种询问并非是愤世嫉俗或嗜虐成性， 而是我们必须去探询心理上的痛苦能否结束。 这个问题是我们自动自发提出来的吗？ 还是它是一个无关痛痒的问题？ 因为我们，我们人类 正在将巨大的心理痛苦施加于人。 我们受到了伤害，深深的伤害 ——这个我们在这一系列谈话开始的时候已经讲过了—— 那也是痛苦， 而心理上受到伤害的结果就是 ——我们讨论过了——抵抗、孤立、恐惧等等。 而在基督教的世界里，痛苦已经被 回避掉了——通过崇拜某个符号—— 然而痛苦依旧存在。 在亚洲世界，人们有着各种对于痛苦的解释， 但是他们还是在受苦。 很显然，痛苦是没有尽头的， 人类的悲伤、人类的痛苦和忧伤 ——这些似乎是没有尽头的。
42:34 And we ought to enquire together – not verbally, intellectually, or romantically – find out whether there is an ending completely of sorrow. Because where there is sorrow there is no love, where there is sorrow there is no compassion, where there is sorrow there is no depth to intelligence. So one must go into this question: who is it that suffers? This is related to the question of death also. We’ll go into that too, if there is time this morning. Who is it that goes through agony, tears and utter loneliness and despair when you lose somebody whom you think you love? Who is it that suffers? What is the nature of that feeling or that state in consciousness? You are understanding all this? We are meeting each other, aren’t we? Or the speaker is talking to himself? These are your problems, not that of the speaker. So please listen, enquire, find out, not leave it to somebody else, because if you leave it to somebody else to solve this problem, then you depend on others and therefore you lose your own intrinsic capacity to solve all the human problems of which you are. 而我们应该一起去探询 ——不是从口头上、智力上，也不是不切实际—— 去发现是否悲伤可以彻底地结束。 因为无论哪里有了悲伤，就不会有爱； 无论哪里有了悲伤，就不会有慈悲； 无论哪里有了悲伤，就不会有深刻的智慧。 所以我们必须去探究这个问题：是谁在受苦？ 这个问题也与死亡的问题有关。 我们也将来探讨它——如果今天早上有时间的话。 是谁在经历这些痛苦、 眼泪、彻底的孤独和绝望， 当你失去了某个你认为你爱的人时， 是谁在痛苦？ 那种痛苦感受或意识状态的本质是什么？ 这些你都明白了吗？我们彼此达成共识了，对吗？ 还是说讲话者在自言自语？ 这些是你的问题，而不是讲话者的。 所以请你去聆听、询问和发现， 而不要把它留给别人去处理， 因为如果你留给别人去解决这个问题， 你就会依赖别人， 从而就失去了你自己内在的、 解决所有人类问题的能力——而你就是这些问题。
45:32 So we are asking, who is it that suffers? When you shed tears, feel utterly lost, the shock of something you have held dear is gone or lost, who is it that has this feeling of great pain? Which means, who is the ‘I’ that says, I suffer? Who is this entity that feels this shock and the pain and the despair of loneliness? Please, this is an important question to put to one, to ask, for when we are enquiring into the nature of dying – though on a lovely morning it may be morbid, but it’s not – there, too, who is it that is dying? Who is the psyche, what is the nature of the psyche, the ‘me’, the ‘I’ that suffers? You know, we have clung to the idea the ‘I’ is something permanent, the ‘I’ has a continuity – the repetition: my house, my property, my knowledge, my experience, my conditioning, my fear, my pleasure which is secretive – so, who is this ‘I’? The various psychologists have given various interpretations to it. If we could put aside all the psychologists, what they have said, and observe for ourselves – including what the speaker is saying – observe for ourselves very clearly without any direction, without any motive, actually what we are. 所以我们问，是谁在受苦？ 当你流下泪水，感到彻底的失落， 你曾经视若珍宝的事物离去或丧失所带来的打击， 是谁感到了这种巨大的痛苦？ 也就是，那个说“我”很痛苦的“我”是谁？ 那个感受到这种打击、 痛苦和孤独绝望的存在体是谁？ 请注意，这是一个摆在你面前的、需要你去问的非常重要的问题， 因为当我们在探询死亡的本质时 ——虽然在一个美丽的早晨讨论这个或许有点吓人，但其实并非如此—— 在这里同样也有这个问题，是谁将死去？ 谁是那个灵魂，灵魂的本质是什么， 那个“我”，那个在痛苦的“我”是谁？ 你知道的，我们坚持这样的观念，那就是“我”是某种永久的东西， 那个“我”具有一种延续性和重复性： 我的房子、我的财产、我的知识、我的经验、我的局限、 我的恐惧、我的欢愉——我私密的欢愉—— 那么，这个“我”是谁呢？ 不同的心理学家已经给出了关于它的各种解释。 如果我们可以撇开所有这些心理学家，把他们说的话放在一边， 然后自己去观察 ——也包括把讲话者的话放在一边—— 自己去非常清楚地观察 ——没有任何方向、没有任何动机——如实地观察自己的真实模样。
49:19 The ancient Greeks and the ancient Hindus have talked about knowing yourself, not according to some professional, but know yourself. What is that self, and what is it to know about it? You understand? What is the self and to know about it, and what is the knowledge that is accumulated after knowing about it? Do you understand the question? Can I know myself through time? That is, I have learned, I have observed myself, watched all the reactions in my relationship with another, intimate or otherwise; I have accumulated a great deal of knowledge through that observation. And when I observe again other reactions, other idiosyncrasies and sensory responses, that previous knowledge interprets what is actually happening. Right? Are you following all this? So, you are actually not knowing yourself, you are perpetuating the knowledge which you have acquired through various examinations and observations which has become your knowledge and that knowledge is beginning again to interpret the present responses, the present happenings and incidents. So you are perpetuating the knowledge which you have acquired, modified and projecting into the future. This cycle is knowledge, action, learn from that action, which becomes further knowledge to keep the cycle going. I hope you are understanding all this. Isn’t that so? We are not telling you anything that you have not observed yourself, if you have observed. 古代希腊人和古代印度人 曾经谈到过“认识你自己” ——不是根据某些专家——而是去认识自我。 那么那个“自我”是什么？什么是认识自我？ 你明白了吗？什么是自我？什么是认识自我？ 通过认识自我而积累起来的知识又是什么？ 你明白这个问题吗？ 我可以通过时间来认识我自己吗？ 那就是，我已经学习过了，我已经观察过自己了， 观察过我在和他人的关系中所有的反应 ——无论关系亲密与否—— 我已经通过那种观察积累了大量的知识， 而当我再次去观察其他反应、 其他癖好和感官反应的时候， 过去的知识就会过来解释实际正在发生着的事情。 对吗？这些你都明白了吗？ 所以实际上你并没有在认识你自己， 你是在延续着那些你已经获得的知识 ——通过各种检视和观察， 它们已经成为了你的知识， 而这些知识会再次开始去解释此刻的反应， 此刻发生的事情和事件。 所以你是在延续着你所获得的知识， 把它加以修正然后投射到未来。 这种循环就是知识、行动，从那种行动中学习， 这种学习又带来了进一步的知识，从而保持了这个循环的运转。 我希望你明白这一切。 难道不是这样吗？ 我们告诉你的每一样东西都是你自己观察到的 ——如果你有去观察的话。
52:10 So, to know oneself really, deeply, previous remembrance, previous knowledge has no place. You have to observe each incident and each response as though for the first time. That is, to know, observe, enter into the field of this immense life which is specialised as the ‘me’. Where there is the ‘me’, the self, there is no love. So it is very important to find out for oneself and not escape from this question, because it’s your life, it’s your responsibility. If you merely avoid it and run away into various forms of entertainment, you are bringing about great disaster in the world, for which you are utterly, totally responsible. 所以，要真正地、深刻地认识你自己， 过往的记忆，过去的知识就不应该有一席之地。 你必须观察每一个事件和每一个反应， 就像是初次见到它。 也就是，去认识、去观察、去进入这个广阔的生活领域 ——生活已经被专门化成了“我的”。 无论哪里有了我、自我，就不会有爱。 所以非常重要是要自己去发现 而不是逃避这个问题， 因为这是你的生活，它是你的责任。 如果你仅仅是回避它然后逃到 各种形式的娱乐中， 你就是在给这个世界制造巨大的灾难 ——而你需要对此彻底地、完全地负责。
53:49 And where there is the ending of suffering, there is compassion. Suffering, the ending of it, is to have passion. There is a vast difference between lust and passion. Lust everybody knows. But the passion, not identified with some symbol, Christian or Asiatic symbols. We have not that passion. When the missionaries, evangelists, the preachers of God and all the rest of it, they are salesmen. To have passion, passion to go, understand, the brutality, the violence, the fears and the agony, to resolve them. So the mind is free from all the contamination of struggle. You must have great energy for that, to go into this. But if one is merely caught in fear, pleasure. Pleasure is different from delight, watching something most beautiful, but the remembrance of it and the desire to continue in that remembrance is pleasure. 而当痛苦结束，就会有慈悲。 痛苦结束就拥有了热情。 欲望和热情之间有着天壤之别。 每一个人都知道欲望。 但是热情，不是认同于某个符号 ——基督教的或者亚洲人的符号。 我们还没有那种热情。 那些传教士、福音传道者、上帝的传道士， 所有这些人，他们都是推销员。 要拥有热情， 有热情去探究、了解那些残忍、暴力、 恐惧和痛苦，去解决它们， 由此心灵就可以摆脱所有斗争的污染。 你必须拥有巨大的能量，才能去深入探究。 然而如果我们只是陷在恐惧和欢愉中 ——欢愉和喜悦是不同的，看着某个极其美丽的东西， 记住了它， 然后渴望在那种回忆中延续它——这就是欢愉。
56:07 And if we have time and if you are not tired this morning, we ought to consider together this immense, complex problem of death. As pleasure, fear, attachment, hurt, the conflict in relationship, that’s our daily reality, and death is also a part of our life. It’s not something that comes at the end of life, after old age, disease, accident; it’s part of this whole business of living. And we never consider the importance of death, the quality, the depth of that word. Most people are afraid of it, and being afraid they have invented all kinds of theories which will give them comfort. In the Asiatic world – the origin of it perhaps born in India – reincarnation. That is, the ‘me’, dying, will have an opportunity next life to be more happy or more greedy, and so on. In the Christian world there is this whole concept of resurrection. You hear about it all day wherever you go, in the Asiatic world and here. And which is important? What is after death, or before death? Please ask this question of yourself. Because most of us, being frightened of death, either rationalise it, say it is inevitable, like a tree grows, withers, dies, everything grows, becomes old, and ends, withers away. So we rationalise our existence, if you are an intellectual, or if you had a very good time during life: popular, money, etc., then you’ll say, 'I’ve had a jolly good life.' Or, as most of us laymen, our life is shallow, insufficient, perhaps technologically we are good: money, position, status. Or we are just feeble human beings, uncertain, no security psychologically, and so our life becomes rather dreary, meaningless. So shouldn’t we consider first what is our life? Not what it is to die, we’ll come to that. 如果我们还有时间， 如果今天早上你还没有感到疲倦， 我们应该一起来思考一下 这个关于死亡的巨大而复杂的问题。 就像欢愉、恐惧、依恋、 伤害和关系中的冲突 是我们日常生活中的真实状态一样， 死亡同样也是我们生活的一部分。 它并不是某个在生命尽头才降临的东西 ——在年老、疾病和事故以后才出现的东西； 它是这整个生活的一部分。 而我们从未思考过死亡的重要意义， 这个词所具有的品质和深度。 大部分人都害怕死亡， 因为害怕，于是他们发明了各种理论， 这些理论可以带给他们安慰。 在亚洲地区，这些理论的源头或许是诞生于印度的 ——轮回转世的理论， 也就是，那个“我”死去了， 但它还会有来世再生的机会， 可以变得更幸福，或者更贪婪，等等。 而在基督教的世界里，则有着关于死后复活的整个概念。 你整天都会听到这些理论，无论你去哪里，在亚洲还是在这里。 那么哪个更重要呢， 是死后的东西，还是死前的东西？ 请你问问自己这个问题。 因为我们大多数人都害怕死亡， 我们要么把它合理化， 说死亡是不可避免的，就像树木的成长、枯萎和死去， 每一样事物都会经历成长、变老，然后结束、凋谢。 所以我们已经把我们的存在合理化了——如果你是一个知识分子的话， 或者如果你这一生都过得顺顺当当： 受人喜爱、家财万贯，等等， 那么你就会说，我已经度过了无比美好的一生。 或者，像我们大多数俗人一样， 我们的生活是肤浅的、不足的， 也许在技术上我们很优秀：金钱、职位、身份； 又或者我们只是软弱无力的人类， 渺茫无常，缺乏心理上的安全感， 因此我们的生活变得相当沉闷枯燥、毫无意义。 所以，我们难道不应该首先来思考一下我们的生活是什么吗？ 而不是死亡是什么——这个我们会讲到的。
1:01:30 What is our life? From the moment we are born till the moment we die, what actually goes on with our life? You know all about it, we don’t have to repeat it. If you are grown up, an adult, you work in a factory, or a businessman, a lawyer, from morning till night – repeat, repeat, repeat. And if you are a housewife, you know all that business, one hasn’t got to go into all the details of it. So our life is pretty shallow, whether it’s a scientist, great philosophers, or generals or politicians, apart from their title and position they are just like other human beings: vain, frustrated psychologically, seeking position – you know, all the rest of it. So, our daily life is a routine and an escape from that routine. Our daily life is work, work, work, without any leisure. And if there is leisure, which is called holidays, it’s mere enjoyment. So our life is shoddy, tawdry – please excuse these words, they’re just describing what it is – with occasional flare of great beauty and depth and happiness. The ending of all that is to die. And man – man, woman – throughout the world is more concerned about death than living: living without conflict, living with great energy, living in clarity, living without a shadow of conflict. And that is possible only if fear ends completely, psychologically. Then there is no need for gods. 我们的生活是什么？ 从我们出生的那一刻起直到我们死去， 我们的生活实际上是怎样的？ 这些你都很清楚，我们不需要再去重复了。 如果你已经长大成人，是一个成年人， 你会去工厂上班， 或者你是一个生意人，一个律师，你会从早到晚地工作 ——重复、重复再重复。 而如果你是一个家庭主妇——你知道关于家庭主妇的一切， 我不需要再去详谈了。 所以我们的生活是相当肤浅的——不管是科学家、 伟大的哲学家、将军或是政治家 ——抛开他们的头衔和地位， 他们其实与其他人并没什么不同： 空虚、内心沮丧， 寻求地位——你知道的，所有这些东西。 所以，我们的日常生活是一种例行公事 和对那种例行公事的逃避。 我们的日常生活就是工作、工作再工作，没有任何闲暇。 如果有了闲暇时光——我们称之为假期—— 也仅仅只是去享乐。 因此我们的生活是卑劣的、俗丽的——请原谅我用这些词语， 它们只是描述了事实现状—— 偶尔闪现那种巨大的美、深度和幸福。 这一切的终点就是死亡。 而人类——男人和女人——全世界的人类 都更加关心死亡而不是生活 ——没有冲突的生活，充满巨大能量的生活， 清明的生活，没有丝毫冲突阴影的生活。 而要这一切成为可能，只有 当恐惧从心理上彻底地结束才行。 那时我们就不需要那些神明了。
1:05:21 So what is it that dies? The accumulation of the knowledge about oneself? The accumulation of your properties? The accumulation of all the things to which you are attached. So is it possible to live – please understand this – to live with death all the time? That’s ending as you live, everything, day after day – you understand? That means the mind is incarnating afresh each day. That is creation, that is a mind that is creative, not inventive. There is a vast difference between inventiveness and creation. All the technological world and the technicians of that world are inventive, because they are using knowledge. And from knowledge to knowledge they move, but they are never free from the knowledge so that there is a new beginning totally. So to live with death – not commit suicide, that’s too silly – to live with death, to end my hurt, end it completely, end one’s attachment, so that life and death are moving together all the time. Do it! 所以是什么东西死亡了？ 是那些积累起来的关于你自己的知识吗？ 是那些你积累起来的财产吗？ 所有那些你依恋的积累起来的事物。 所以是否可能——请理解这一点—— 一直与死亡生活在一起？ 那就是在你活着的时候去结束一切——日复一日地去结束，你明白吗？ 那意味着心灵每一天都在重生。 这就是创造，这才是一个创造性的心灵 ——而不是发明。 发明能力和创造性之间有着巨大的差别。 所有科学技术的领域 和这个领域里的技术人员都具有发明的才能， 因为他们能够运用知识， 然后从一种知识前进到另一种知识， 但他们从未摆脱知识 从而拥有一个完全崭新的开始。 所以与死亡一起生活——不是让你去自杀，那就是犯傻了—— 与死亡生活在一起，结束你的伤害， 彻底地结束它， 结束我们的执着，等等， 由此生命与生活， 生命与死亡就可以始终并肩而行了。 去这样做！
1:07:56 If one applies one’s mind and energy to this enquiry and its activity, then there is a totally different kind of life. And we’ll talk about it tomorrow, what place such a life has in this world and is that a religious life. And the place of a religious life in meditation and so on. 如果我们运用自己的心灵和能量去进行这种探询，投入那种行动， 那么就会有一种完全不同的生活。 而我们明天要谈的是， 这种生活在这个世界上具有怎样的位置？ 它是一种宗教生活吗？ 以及宗教生活在冥想中的位置，等等。
1:08:48 May I get up, sirs? 我可以起来了吗，先生们？