Krishnamurti Subtitles home


OJ83CJS - 什么可以让我们改变？
和乔纳斯 索尔克的谈话
奥海，美国
1983年3月27日



0:18 Jonas Salk: What would you like to talk about? 乔纳斯·索尔

克：您打算讨论什么？
0:21 K: What shall we talk about? 克： 咱们讨论什么呢？
0:23 JS: I’d like you to tell me what is your deepest interest, your deepest concern. 乔：我想请您告诉我， 您最感兴趣、最关心的是什么？
0:33 K: It’s rather difficult to put into words, isn’t it, for the cinema.

JS: Yes. 		克：这个真不太好说，是不是？ 喜欢看电影。

乔:没错。
0:39 K: But I think, seeing what the world is becoming, I think any serious man must be concerned about the future, what is going to happen to mankind. 克：不过，看到世界的变化， 我想，每个严肃的人 都会担忧人类的未来。
0:57 JS: Yes. 乔：是的。
0:59 K: Especially if one has children; what is their future? Are they going to repeat the same old pattern, which human beings have been doing for a million years, or more or less? Or is there going to be a fundamental change in their psyche, in their whole consciousness? That is really the question, whether it is – not the atomic war or conventional war, but it is man against man. 克：尤其是如果你有孩子；他们未来会怎样？ 在差不多一百万年时间里， 人类循规蹈矩地生活着，孩子们会继续 那样生活下去吗？ 还是说， 他们的精神和整个意识 会发生根本的转变？ 那确实是个问题， 不管是核战争还是传统战争， 其实都是人和人的斗争。
1:40 JS: Yes. I am sure you must have an opinion about that. 乔：是这样。我相信对此您一定有自己的见解。
1:44 K: Yes. I don’t know if I have an opinion. I have observed a great deal, I have talked to a great many people in my life, and there are very, very few who really are concerned, committed to something to discover if there is a different way of living, a global relationship, global intercommunication. Not merely stumble over language, not the religious and political divisions and all that nonsense, if we can live on this earth peacefully, without killing each other endlessly. I think that is the real issue we are facing now. And we think the crisis is outside of us. 克：很难说我有什么见解。 我一生当中 做了大量观察，和很多人谈过， 但真正关心这个问题的人非常少，是否存在一种 不同的生活方式， 全世界的人能否建立起联系，相互交流， 很少有人致力于这种探索和发现。 不是纠缠语言、 宗教和政治划分等等毫无意义的东西， 而是真正弄清楚是否存在… 我们能否在这个地球上和平地生活， 不再无休止地互相残杀。 那是我们真正面临的问题。 而我们却以为危机在身外。
2:51 K: It is in us.

JS: In us. 		危机在我们心中。

乔：在我们心里。
2:53 K: The crisis is in our consciousness. 克：危机在我们的意识当中。
2:57 JS: There is an expression that comes from a cartoonist, it’s Pogo who says that we have met the enemy, the enemy is us. 乔：有位漫画家说过这样一句名言 就是卡通鼠波哥，它说，我们遇到的敌人就是我们自己。
3:11 JS: And so what you are saying is that we have now come face to face with ourselves. 乔：所以，您的意思就是， 我们正在面对我们自己。
3:19 K: Yes, with ourselves and with our relationship to the world, both externally and inwardly. 克：对。面对我们自己，面对我们和世界的关系， 从外表到内心同时面对。
3:26 JS: So that the fundamental issue with which we are confronted is relationship; relationship to ourselves and relationship to each other, and I might even go so far as to say to the world and to the cosmos. We are really confronted with that eternal question of the meaning of our lives. 乔：所以，我们面临的 基本问题就是关系， 与自身的关系，我们彼此的关系， 甚至，和世界、和宇宙的关系。 我们的确面临着那个永恒的问题： 人生的意义是什么。
3:46 K: The meaning of our lives, yes, that’s right. Either we give a meaning to our life intellectually, fix a goal and work towards that, which becomes so artificial, unnatural, or understand the whole structure of ourselves. Either, I feel now, we have advanced so extraordinarily technologically – fantastic, what they are doing, as you know – but in the other field, in the psychological field we have hardly moved. We are what we have been for the last umpteen years. 克：人生的意义，没错。 要么我们在理智上赋予人生一个意义， 向一个确定的目标努力， 可是，那就太勉强了， 要么就去了解我们自身的整个结构。 我感觉， 我们在科技方面进步神速 ——简直难以置信，你知道他们在做什么—— 可是，在其它领域， 在心理领域我们却停滞不前。 经过漫长的岁月，依然故我。
4:41 JS: Even at the point of having developed what we call artificial intelligence. 乔：甚至在 开发出所谓的人工智能的时候。
4:47 K: Computer and so on. 克：就是指计算机什么的。
4:49 JS: Computers and such devices, and are beginning to focus our attention on how we use this artificial intelligence to learn how to use our own natural intelligence. 乔：是的，计算机之类的设备， 并且他们开始重点研究 如何使用人工智能， 却…

克：…不会毁灭我们的…

乔：…没有意识到我们必须 学习使用先天的智慧。
5:10 K: Sir, have we natural intelligence, or have we destroyed it? 克：先生，我们有先天的智慧， 还是我们已经把它给毁掉了？
5:15 JS: It’s innate, and we destroy it in each individual as they come along. I think we are born with that natural intelligence, but I sometimes think... 乔：我们有， 可是每个人一出世，我们就把它毁掉了。 我觉得这种智慧是与生俱来的， 不过有时候我觉得…
5:28 K: I really would like to question that, whether we are born with natural intelligence. 克：我很想问一下， 我们是否有与生俱来的智慧？
5:32 JS: We are born with the capacity, with the potential for that, in the same way as we are born with the capacity for language. 乔：我们先天具有这种能力，具有这方面潜力， 正如我们先天就有学习语言的能力。
5:40 K: Yes.

JS: But then it must be exercised, it must be activated, it must be brought out in the course of life’s experiences. And it is for this reason that we really have a need to understand what I like to think of as the conditions and circumstances for evoking that potential. 		克：是的。

乔：不过，随后这种能力必须受到锻炼， 被激活， 在生活过程中激发出来。 因此，我们真的有必要理解 那个我视为有助于激发潜能的 条件和环境。
6:00 K: As long as we are conditioned... 克：只要我们受到制约…
6:05 J: ...we are always conditionable. That’s in our nature. 乔：…我们总是会适应环境并受到制约。我们天生如此。
6:09 K: Yes. But is it possible to uncondition ourselves, or must it go on? 克：是的。不过我们是否可能解除自身的制约， 还是说只能照此下去？
6:17 JS: Are you asking, is it possible to uncondition the individual who has become conditioned? 乔：你是不是在问，是否可能 让个体摆脱制约？
6:25 K: The individual who becomes conditioned by society, by language, by the climate, by literature, by newspapers, by everything he has been shaped, impressed upon, and influenced, whether he can ever step out of it. 克：个体受到了社会、 语言、气候、 文学、报纸等各方面制约，他被塑造成型， 心里留下印记，他受到影响， 那么这种制约能否… 他能否从这里跳出去。
6:56 JS: With great difficulty, because it does have a tendency to become fixed, and it is for this reason that we must give attention to the young, to each new generation that are brought into a new context and are shaped by that context, shaped by those circumstances. We have an opportunity with new and as yet unshaped, unformed minds to influence them in a healthier fashion than has been true until now.

K: One has had, had lots of young people, thousands of them, From the age of five to twelve they seem intelligent, curious, awake, full of energy and vitality and beauty. 		乔：太难了， 江山易改，本性难移啊。 因此，我们必须关注孩子们， 每一代新人，被接纳到新的环境里， 受到环境、条件的影响， 我们必须关注他们。对于新的一代， 对于还没有被塑造的头脑，我们有机会 抛弃那种一直被奉为圭臬的教育方式，而采用一种 更为明智的方式来影响他们。

克：你曾经， 尤其是我的…要是我可以谈谈它的话， 那里有许多年轻人，有几千人， 我和他们接触过。 在五到十二岁这个年龄段，他们聪明、好奇、清醒， 活力四射、生气勃勃，散发着美的气息。
7:58 K: After that age – the parents are responsible for it, society, newspapers, their own friends, the family – the whole thing seems to drown them, make them so ugly, vicious, you know, the whole human race has become like that. So is it possible to educate them differently? 克：过了那个年龄——父母们应该对此负责， 还有社会、报刊杂志、他们的朋友、家庭 ——所有这些东西，似乎把他们给淹死了， 他们变得如此丑陋、恶毒，你知道， 整个人类都变成了这个样子。 那么，是否可能以一种不同的方式教育他们呢？
8:22 JS: I think so. I have said in something that I wrote not so long ago, that we are in need of an immunizing education. The analogy that I am using is that of immunizing against a crippling disease.

K: A crippling disease, quite. 		乔：我也这么想。 不久前，我在自己写的什么东西上面说过， 我们需要一种能够提供免疫的教育。 这个比喻指的是对一种 致残性疾病的免疫。

克：致残性疾病，的确。
8:40 JS: And in this instance I have in mind the crippling of the mind, not merely the crippling of the body. And I believe... 乔：我指的是心灵残疾， 而不仅仅是身体残疾。我相信…
8:46 K: If we could go into that a little bit: what cripples the mind. Basically, not superficially of course. Basically, if I may ask, is it knowledge? 克：我们稍微深入一点儿去讨论，好吗？ 什么导致了心灵残疾。 我们当然不是指表面的原因， 从根本上讲，可不可以说，知识造成了心灵残疾？
9:06 JS: Wrong knowledge. 乔：错误的知识。
9:07 K: Knowledge, I am using the word ‘knowledge,’ whether it is right or wrong, but knowledge, psychological knowledge, apart from the academic knowledge, technological knowledge of the computer and so on, leaving all that aside, has man inwardly been helped by knowledge? 克：知识， 我使用的是“知识”这个词，不管是正确的还是错误的， 而知识，心理方面的知识， 抛开学术知识、 科学知识，… 计算机技术之类的知识， 不谈那些， 知识对人类的心灵有过什么帮助么？
9:38 JS: Are you referring to the kind of knowledge that comes from experience? 乔：您指的是来自 经验的那类知识？
9:44 K: The whole question of knowledge. Knowledge is after all the gathering of experience. 克：整个知识问题。 毕竟知识是全部经验的集合。
9:51 JS: I see two kinds of knowledge. I see the organized body of knowledge that comes, let us say, through science; and then I see the kind of knowledge that comes through human experience. 乔：我看到两种知识。 比方说，我看到大量经过归纳总结的 科学知识； 我又看到来自于 人类经验的知识。
10:03 K: Yes, human experience – just take human experience. We have had probably over seven thousand years, wars. 克：对，人类的经验—— 我们就说人类的经验。 我们很可能已经有七千多年的战争经验了。
10:13 JS: Yes. 乔：没错。
10:15 K: And wars now have – in the old days you killed by an arrow or a club, two or three people or a hundred people at the most, now you kill by the million. 克：而现在的战争已经 ——在古代，你用弓箭或者棍棒， 杀死两三个人，最多也就一百个人， 可是现在，你可以成百万地杀人。
10:30 JS: Much more efficiently.

K: Much more efficiently. You are up in the air and you don’t know whom you are killing. It might by your own family, your own friends. So has that experience of ten thousand years of war, or five thousand years of war, has that experience taught man anything about not killing? 		乔：效率高多了。

克：效率高多了。 你在天上，不知道自己杀死的是谁。 也许是你的家人，朋友。 那么，一万年， 或者五千年的战争经验， 让人类懂得不该杀戮的道理了吗？
10:55 JS: Well, it has taught me something. I see no sense in it, there are others who share that view – growing numbers, there are growing numbers of people who are becoming conscious and aware of the absurdity of that kind of behaviour. 乔：嗯，它让我明白一些东西。 我发现战争毫无意义，别人也有持同样观点的 ——这样的人是在增多的， 越来越多的人开始 意识到那种行为很荒唐。
11:14 K: After ten thousand years? You follow my question? 克：在一万年之后？你明白我的意思吗？
11:18 JS: I follow you. 乔：我明白。
11:22 K: We must question whether there is a learning at all. Or just wandering blindly. If after ten thousand years, or less or more, human beings haven’t learnt a very simple thing: don’t kill somebody, for god’s sake. You are killing yourself, you are killing your future. And that hasn’t been learnt. Right? 克：我们不能不问，人类究竟从中学到了什么没有。 还是说，人类只是在盲目地游荡。 在近一万年之后， 人类还没有明白一个非常简单的道理： 看在上帝的份上，不要杀人。 你是在杀死你自己，你是在毁掉你的未来。 可是，人类却还没有明白这个。对吧？
12:01 JS: It has been learnt by some, but not by all. 乔：有人明白了，不过不是所有人。
12:05 K: Of course there are exceptions. Let’s leave the exceptions. Exceptions will always be there, fortunately. But the majority who vote for war, for the presidents, for prime ministers and all the rest of it, they haven’t learnt a thing. They’ll destroy us 克：当然有例外。 我们先不谈这些例外的人。 幸运的是，总是有例外。

乔：幸好有例外…

克：的确。

乔：…这很重要。

克：当然，幸好有例外。 可是，大多数人在 投票支持战争、选举总统、 选举总理等等， 他们什么也没明白。他们会把我们毁灭。
12:35 JS: If we let them.

K: But it is happening. 		乔：要是我们允许的话。

克：不过，这种事情正在发生。
12:40 JS: The ultimate destruction has not happened yet. 乔：还没有出现终极毁灭。
12:44 K: Ah, of course. 克：啊，当然。
12:45 JS: You are quite right, you are quite right. But we must become conscious and aware of that new danger. And something must arise within us now. 乔：您说的非常对，非常对。 不过我们必须清醒地意识到那种新的危险。 我们内心必须发生改变。
12:59 K: Sir, I would like to go into this because I am questioning whether experience has taught man anything, except to be more brutal, more selfish, more self-centred, more concerned with himself and his little group, with his little family, with his little... The tribal consciousness which has become national consciousness – glorified, and that is destroying us. So, after ten thousand years, more or less, has not taught man, don’t kill, there is something wrong. 克：先生，我想讨论这个问题， 经验让人类更加野蛮、自私、 自我中心， 关注他自身、他的小群体 和他的小家庭等等，除此之外， 经验是否让人类明白了什么？ 部落意识发展成了 国家意识——这种意识被美化，被颂扬， 却正在把我们毁灭。 那么，在近一万年之后， 人类并没有明白不要杀人，这有点儿不对劲。
13:50 JS: I’d like to offer a suggestion, a way of looking at this problem, at this question. I’d like to look at it from an evolutionary point of view, and speculate that we are evolving through a period of time, in which the exception to which you refer earlier, you referred earlier, may some day become the rule. Now how might this happen? It has to happen or else there will be nothing to speak about after the event.

K: Of course. 		乔：我提个建议， 这样来看这个问题。 从进化的角度， 我猜测我们正处在进化过程当中， 你前面说的 那些例外的人 可能会在某一天占据主导地位。 这种情况如何才能出现？ 这种情况必须出现，否则，就谈不上以后 会怎么样。

克：当然。
14:29 JS: Therefore we are confronting a crisis now. 乔：因此，我们正面临危机。
14:33 K: That’s what we said. 克：我们说的就是这个。
14:35 JS: That crisis is imminent, it gets closer and closer.

K: Yes, sir. 		乔：危机正在逼近， 迫在眉睫。

克：是这样，先生。
14:42 JS: And it is for this reason that we may very well have to enter the arena ourselves in a conscious way, and as we are speaking about this, fully conscious of what we are saying, aware of the risk and of the danger, some effort must be made, some way must be invented to raise the consciousness of the world as a whole, as difficult as that may be. 乔：正是因此，我们很可能 要有意识地 亲历亲为， 像我们现在讨论这件事这样， 要完全清楚我们在谈什么， 有什么风险，有什么危险， 我们要尽力， 想出办法来，提升世界上所有人 的观念，尽管这可能会困难重重。
15:09 K: I understand all this, sir. This is – I have talked to a great many politicians all over – this is their argument. 克：这些我都理解，先生。 他们是这种——我和世界上许多政治家谈过—— 他们是这种论调。
15:19 K: You, and people like you, must enter the arena. Wait a minute. We always deal with a crisis, not what has brought about the crisis. When the crisis arises we are so concerned – answer the crisis, don’t bother about the past, don’t bother about anything else, just answer the crisis. 克：你，和像你一样的人，都得亲自上阵。 等一下。 我们一直都在处理危机， 我们不管它怎么产生的。 发生危机后，我们特别重视 ——去应对危机，别操心过去， 别操心其它事儿，就是应对危机。
15:53 JS: That’s wrong.

K: That’s what they are all doing! 		乔：那可不对。

克：他们就是这么干的。
15:56 JS: I understand that. And that’s why they need your wisdom, and they need the wisdom of others like yourself who see the future, those who can anticipate, who can see the handwriting on the wall, and will act before the wall begins to crumble. 乔：我明白。 这就是为什么他们需要 像您这样的人的智慧， 才能高瞻远瞩、预见未来， 才能看到不祥之兆， 并未雨绸缪。
16:14 K: Therefore I am just saying, shouldn’t we go and enquire into the cause of all this? Not just say well, here is a crisis, deal with it. 克：因此，我们是不是应该 去调查一下，找出原因？ 而不是说一句“嗯，发生危机了，去处理一下。”就完了。
16:25 JS: No, no. I agree with you. 乔：对，对，应该这样做。
16:27 K: That’s what the politicians are saying. 克：政客们就是这种论调。
16:31 JS: Well, I won’t play that game, and I am not suggesting that we do. 乔：嗯，我不赞成这种作风， 我也不建议我们这么做。
16:36 K: Only silly people play that game.

JS: Yes. 		克：只有愚蠢的人才耍这套把戏。

乔：是的。
16:38 K: Foolish people. But I mean the cause of all this is obviously the desire to live safely, protected, security – inward. I divide myself as a family, then a small group of people, and so on, so on. 克：愚蠢的人。我的意思是， 显然，这一切的根源在于希望 生活安全、有保障，有内在的安全感。 我将自己分裂成一个家庭， 然后分裂成一小群人，等等。
17:01 JS: We are going to discover that we are all one great big family. And our greatest security will come from being concerned about others in our family. 乔：我们会发现 我们全都属于一个大家庭。 关心家里的其他人 会带给我们最大的安全。
17:13 K: Yes, sir. 克：是这样，先生。
17:14 JS: It will be of no great advantage to us to have others suffer and be a threat to us as well as to themselves, which is the state of affairs now with nuclear war. 乔：让别人遭受痛苦， 让他们成为我们， 也包括他们自己的威胁，并不会对我们更有利， 现在，核战争就是这种情况。
17:27 K: Therefore I am asking whether we learn through suffering – which we haven’t, right? – whether we learn through kind of agony of wars – we haven’t. So what makes us learn, change? What are the factors of it, depth of it? Why have human beings, who have lived on this poor unfortunate earth for so long, they are destroying the thing on which they are growing, the earth, and they are destroying each other. What is the cause of all this? Not speculative causes, the actual, deep human cause? 克：我们是否从苦难中学到了什么 ——我们没有，是吧？—— 惨痛的战争让我们懂得了什么——没有。 那么，什么才能让我们明白，让我们改变？ 它包括哪些因素，它深层的含义是什么？ 为什么人类 在这个可怜的、不幸的地球上生活了这么长时间， 他们正在毁灭这个他们赖以繁衍生息的地球， 他们正在彼此毁灭。 这一切原因何在？ 不是猜测的原因，而是人类心灵深处真正的原因？
18:17 K: Unless we find that we will go on for the rest of our days. 克：不找到这个原因，我们将只能这样了此余生。
18:21 JS: That’s quite right. 乔：非常正确。 您问的是其根源…
18:28 K: Or the causations, which has brought man to this present crisis. to satisfy the need for survival under circumstances of threat, when there is something to be had, something to be gained by war, war is something that men engaged in. Now when the time comes when nothing is to be gained, and everything is to be lost, we, maybe, give a second thought. 克：也可以说是诱因，把人类带到目前危机上来的诱因。

乔：依我看，那种需要… 为了生存，在受到威胁的情况下， 人们便会诉诸战争， 获取所求。 而当战争只能令我们一无所获、 两败俱伤的时候， 我们或许会仔细考虑一番。
19:14 K: But we’ll have lost, sir. You understand? Every war we are losing. Why haven’t we learnt that? The historians have written about it. All the great scholars have – you follow? – and man has remained tribal, small, petty, self-centred. I am asking what will make him change? No, the immediacy of change, not future, gradual, because time may be the enemy of man. Evolution may be the enemy. 克：但我们会两败俱伤的，先生。你理解吗？ 每场战争我们都两败俱伤。为什么我们没有明白那个道理？ 历史学家对此都有记载。 所有伟大的学者也已经——你理解吗？—— 而人类依然分裂为部落，人类依然渺小、琐碎、以自我为中心。 问题是，什么东西可以让他改变？ 不是未来逐渐地改变，而是即刻改变， 因为时间是人类的敌人。 进化可能就是。
20:02 JS: Enemy – evolution may be the only solution. 乔：敌人——进化可能是唯一的解决办法。
20:06 K: Or – if man hasn’t learnt after all this suffering, and is going on perpetuating this thing, what... 克：或者——人类经历了所有这些苦难，要是还没有明白， 还这样继续下去，那么…
20:19 JS: He hasn’t evolved sufficiently as yet. The conditions have not, as yet, been propitious for solving the problems that precipitated war. 乔：他还没有充分进化。 到目前为止，尚不具备条件， 彻底解决引发战争的各种问题。
20:33 K: Sir, if we have children, what’s their future? War? And how am I, if one is a parent, how is he to see all this? How is one to awaken, to be aware of all this going on, and their relationship to what is going on – and if they don’t change this thing will go on endlessly. 克：先生，如果我们有孩子，他们的未来是什么？是战争吗？ 我要是父母，我会怎样看？ 一个人要怎样才能醒悟，才能意识到正在发生的一切， 意识到这一切和他们是什么关系 ——而他们要是不改变， 战争就永无休止。
21:05 JS: Therefore a change is imperative. 乔：因此，改变势在必行。
21:08 K: Yes, sir, but... 克：是的，先生，可是…
21:09 JS: How are we going to bring it about? 乔：我们怎样才能改变？
21:10 K: Yes. That’s what I am asking. Change is imperative.

JS: I understand that. 		克：嗯。我说的也是这个。 改变势在必行。

乔：我明白。
21:13 K: If the change is through evolution, which is time and all the rest of it, we are going to destroy ourselves. 克：通过进化， 就是通过时间之类的东西来改变， 我们将自取灭亡。
21:20 JS: But I think that we have to accelerate the evolutionary process. We must do it deliberately and consciously. Until now we have been evolving unconsciously, which has led to the condition that you have just been describing. A new change must occur, a different kind of change, a change in our consciousness, in which we ourselves, using our intelligence. 乔：不过，我认为 我们需要让进化加速。 需要主动加快进化。 到现在，我们一直是在无意识地进化， 这造成了您说的那种局面。 我们必须有一种新的、不同的变化， 一种在意识方面，在我们自己对智慧的 使用方式上的变化。
21:47 K: So I am asking, what are the causes of this? If I can find the causes – every cause has an end. So if I can find the cause, or causes, or the many causations that has brought human beings to the present state, then I can go after those causes. 克：那么，导致这个问题的起因是什么？ 如果我能够发现起因——每个起因都有一个目的。 那么如果我能够发现把人类带到 目前这种状态的起因， 或者一些起因，或者许多的诱因， 我就可以去调查这些原因。
22:10 JS: Let me suggest another way of looking at it: let us assume, for the sake of argument, that the causes that have led to this will persist unless some outside intervention is brought to bear to change the direction. Let me suggest the possibility of looking at the positive elements in human beings, the possibility of strengthening those. 乔：我想从另一个角度看这个问题： 为了讨论方便起见，让我们假设， 除非以某种外部干预来 改变方向，这个问题的 肇因将持续存在。 我建议看看 人类的积极因素所具有的可能性， 加强… 加强那些因素的可能性。
22:35 K: That means time. 克：那意味着时间。
22:38 JS: Everything in the human realm occurs in time. I am suggesting that we accelerate the time, that we foreshorten the time, that we not leave it only to time and only to chance, that we begin to intervene in our own evolution to that extent, and we become the co-authors of our evolution. 乔：人世间一切都在时间之内。 我建议加快时间， 缩短时间， 不是仅仅把它交给时间，交给机遇， 我们要干预我们自己的进化，加快进化 我们要成为我们进化的共同作者。
22:59 K: I understand that. – may not have an answer – I think for myself it has an answer, which is: can time end? This way of thinking, that, give me a few more days before you slaughter me. During those few days I must change. 克：我明白你的意思。 不，我的问题或许更… 或许没有答案——我自己认为有， 这个问题就是：时间能结束吗？ 这样去想， 你对我举起屠刀之前，先宽限我几天时间， 在此期间，我必须得转变。
23:34 JS: I think time ends in the following sense: that the past ends and the future begins. 乔：我认为时间结束是这个意思： 结束过去，开启未来.
23:41 K: No. Which means what? For the past to end, which is one of the most complex things, memory, knowledge, and the whole urge, the desire, the hope, all that has to end. 克：不。那是什么意思呢？ 结束过去是极其复杂的事情， 记忆、知识以及所有的渴望、欲望、期冀等等 全都得结束。
24:03 JS: Let me give you an illustration of the ending of something and the beginning of something new. When it was observed that the earth was round not flat there was a change in perception, and from that point on, the earth was no longer seen as flat, it was seen as round. The same thing was true for the revolution of the sun around the earth, which then became apparent that it was the earth that revolved round the sun. 乔：我举例来说明一下，什么是 一个事情的结束和一个新事物的开始吧。 人们观察到地球不是平的，而是圆的之后， 看法就发生了转变。从那时起， 地球在人眼里就不再是平的，而是圆的了。 同样， 一开始人们以为太阳是绕着地球转的， 后来大家都明白 地球是绕着太阳转的了。
24:30 K: Galileo, he was nearly burnt by the church for this. 克：伽利略，为了这个他差点儿被教会烧死。
24:32 JS: Indeed. Indeed. And the same thing is likely to happen again. 乔：确实，确实，而且以后可能还会有这种事。
24:38 K: So my question is this: is time an enemy or a help? 克：那么，时间是敌人，还是说，时间能给我们带来什么帮助？
24:44 JS: We must use time to our advantage. – right? – I have another hundred, fifty years to live, and can I during those fifty years shorten the whole human experience, shorten the content of my consciousness, and in the very shortening bring it to a very, very tiny point so that it is gone? Has the human brain the capacity – it has infinite capacity in one direction, technological, infinite capacity, we don’t seem to apply that extraordinary capacity inwardly. 乔：我们必须合理地利用时间。

克：我怎样...利用时间。就是，我有未来 ——对吧？—— 我还可以再活100年、50年。 在那50年里，我能不能把人类所有的经验， 我的意识的内容进行压缩， 把它压缩成非常小、非常小的一个点， 以至于消失？ 人类的大脑有这个能力吗？ ——大脑能力是无限的，在一个方向上，在技术上 它能力无限， 而我们似乎没有把那种非凡的能力用于向内的探索。
25:49 JS: Let’s focus on that. 乔：我们集中精力讨论一下这个问题。
25:50 K: Yes, that’s what I am saying.

JS: That’s the central issue. 		克：好，我说的就是这个问题。

乔：这是最重要的问题。
25:52 K: That’s what I’m saying.

JS: I agree. I agree. 		克：我正在谈这个问题。

乔：我同意。我同意。
25:55 K: If we could focus that tremendous energy on this, we would change instantly.

JS: Instantly. There you have it. 		克：如果我们能够把巨大的能量全都用在这个问题上， 我们立刻就会发生转变。

乔：立刻，你说到点子上了。
26:03 K: I know, sir. Now, what will make man to focus that capacity, that energy, the drive on this one point? Sorrow hasn’t helped him, better communication hasn’t helped him, nothing has helped him, factually – god, church, religions, better statesmen, latest gurus, none of that. 克：我明白，先生。 什么才能使人类把那种能力、 那种能量、那种精力集中到这一个点上？ 不幸的遭遇没能给他帮助， 增进沟通也无济于事， 什么都帮不了他。 事实上——上帝、教会、信仰、 更优秀的政治家、最新的古鲁，都没能给他带来什么帮助。
26:36 JS: That’s right. 乔：是这样。
26:38 K: So, can I put all that aside and not depend on anybody? 克：我能否把它们全抛开，不依赖任何人？
26:49 K: – scientists, the doctors, psychologists, nobody, and say look... 克：科学家、医生、 心理学家，我谁也不依靠，并说，你瞧...
26:57 JS: What you are saying is that the means has not yet been invented for accomplishing what you have in mind. 乔：你的意思是，实现你的想法的 那些手段还没发明出来。
27:05 K: I don’t think it is means – the means is the end. 克：我认为它不是手段，手段就是目的。
27:10 JS: I accept that. 乔：是这样。
27:12 K: Therefore don’t look for a means. See that these people have not helped you in the least. On the contrary, they have led you up a wrong path. So leave them. 克：因此不要去寻找手段， 这些人根本没给你带来什么帮助。 恰恰相反，他们把你引入歧途，那就离开他们。
27:23 JS: They are not the means.

K: They are not the means. 		乔：他们不是手段。

克：他们不是手段。
27:26 JS: Because they do not serve the ends of which we are speaking.

K: They are not the means. The authority outside is not the means, so, inside. That requires, sir, tremendous – I don’t like to use the word ‘courage’– to stand lonely, to be alone, not depend or be attached to anything. And who is going to do this? One or two. 		乔：因为对于实现我们谈到的那些目标， 他们没起什么作用。

克：他们不是手段。 外在的权威不是手段，所以，先生， 这要求内心具有极大的“勇气” ——我不爱用“勇气”那个词——，孑然独立， 孤身自处，不依靠也不依赖任何东西。 可是有谁会这么做呢？一个人还是两个人？
28:04 JS: That’s the challenge. 乔：那就是挑战。
28:06 K: So I say, for god’s sake wake up to that, not the means, not the end. 克：所以，我说，看在上帝的份上，意识到这一点吧， 他们不是手段，不是目的。
28:19 JS: I share your view as to where the solution lies. I share your view that it is perhaps the most difficult of all of the things with which human beings have been confronted, and it’s for that reason it’s left to the last. We have done all of the easy things. For example, we are manipulating artificial intelligence, but not our own intelligence. It is understandable because we are in a sense both the cause and the effect. 乔：对于人类出路在哪？我们观点一致。 我也觉得， 人类面临的问题当中， 这个可能是最难解的一个， 因此，它被留在最后。 我们做了所有容易的事情。 比如，我们现在使用人工智能驾轻就熟， 可是我们却用不好自己的智慧。 这可以理解，因为在某种程度上， 我们既是因也是果。
29:03 K: Cause becomes the effect, the effect becomes the cause, and so on, we keep in that chain. 克：因变成果， 果又变成因，等等。 我们脱离不了这个因果循环链。
29:09 JS: Yes. Now since we are at a point at which the human race can become extinct, it seems to me that the only invention, if I may use that term, that we are awaiting now to bring that to an end, is to find the means for exercising self-restraint upon all of the factors and conditions and circumstances that have led to war in the past.

K: Yes, sir. I wonder, sir, if I may – it may be irrelevant – the world is bent on pleasure. You see it in this country more than anywhere else, tremendous drive for pleasure, and entertainment, sport, which is, be entertained all the time. In the school here the children want to be entertained, not learn. And you go to the East, and there they want to learn. You have been there.

JS: Yes. 		乔：是的。我们处于 人类可能会走向灭绝的重要关头。 在我看来，似乎唯一的发明，要是可以这么说的话， 我们现在所期待的发明， 以便遏制这种发展趋势，就是找到办法， 让人类能够对所有在过去导致战争的那些因素，那些条件和环境 都表现出克己和自制。

克：是这样，先生。不知 我是否可以，先生，这话可能有些不相干—— 现在全世界都沉迷于享乐， 你可以看到，在这个国家，这种现象比其它任何地方都明显。 为了追求快乐，人们铆足了劲儿，娱乐、体育， 时时刻刻都要娱乐。 这边的学校里，孩子们想要的是娱乐，不是学习。 而在东方，那儿的孩子是想学习的。 你到过那儿。

乔：嗯。
30:30 K: They want to learn. 克：他们想学习。
30:32 JS: And that’s pleasurable too. And it can be. 乔：那种学习也是令人愉快的，这可以办到。
30:37 K: Yes. Of course, of course, of course, of course. So if man’s drive is to find and continue in pleasure, apparently that has been the historical process – pleasure whether it is in the church, all the mass, all the circus that goes on in the name of religion, or on the football field – that has existed from the ancient days. And that may be one of our difficulties: to be entertained by specialists, you know, the whole world of entertainers. Every magazine is a form of entertainment, introducing a few good articles here and there. So, man’s drive is not only to escape fear, but the drive for pleasure. They both go together.

JS: They do, that’s right. 		克：是的。当然，当然。 如果一个人的动机就是寻找和维持快乐， 那显然是一个历史现象。 不论是以宗教为名的 教堂里座无虚席、热闹非凡的快乐， 还是足球场上的快乐—— 那种现象自古就有。 而那或许是我们所面临的困难之一： 我们要由专业人士，你知道， 由整个的娱乐界来为我们提供娱乐。 每本杂志都是一种娱乐， 零零散散地，你会在里面碰到几篇可读的文章。 所以，人的动机不只是逃避恐惧， 还包括追求快乐。 它们是相伴而生的。

乔：相伴而生。是这样。
31:44 K: Two sides of the same coin. But we forget the other side, fear, and pursue this. And that may be one of the reasons why this crisis is coming. 克：硬币的两面。 我们忘了恐惧的一面，就只去追求快乐。 这可能是出现危机的原因之一。
31:58 JS: It will not be the first time that a species will have become extinct. I think we must ask the question whether or not there are some cultures in some societies that are more likely to endure than others, that have the characteristics and attributes that are necessary to overcome the problems, the weaknesses to which you have been drawing attention. It seems to me that you are prophesying a time of great difficulty and of great danger. And you are pointing out the differences that exist amongst peoples and amongst cultures and amongst individuals, some of whom, exceptions there may be, could well be the exceptional ones that will survive and will endure after the holocaust. 乔：这场危机可能不是 一个物种的第一次灭绝， 我认为我们必须问， 是否某些社会的文化 比其他社会的文化更具韧性， 拥有必要的特点和品质， 因而能够克服 你所关心的那些问题和弱点。 你似乎在预言一个 非常艰难、非常危险的时期， 你指出不同的民族、文化、 个体之间所存在的差异， 其中一部分，例外是可能存在的， 很可能就是那些例外的人，他们在大灾难后会幸存下来， 并经受住考验。
32:57 K: That means one or two, or half a dozen people surviving out of all this mess – no, I can’t imagine, that would be... 克：那意味着经过整个这场混乱， 只有一两个人或者六七个人幸存下来 ——不，我无法想象。那或许...
33:08 JS: I am not recommending that. I am simply giving a picture, a number, a quantity and a quality to it so as to make people aware of their responsibility in respect to that future. 乔：我并不希望那样的结局。 我只是在描绘一幅景象，用数字说明， 那会留下来多少个人，过的又是怎样的生活， 好促使人们意识到他们 对于未来所肩负的责任。
33:25 K: Sir, is it responsibility implies but you are responsible as a human being for the rest of humanity. 克：先生，责任是不是指 你不仅对你小小的...你对家人负责， 而作为一个人，你还要 对其他人负责。
33:39 JS: I think I said to you, told you the title of an address I gave in India, which was, ‘Are we being good ancestors?’ We have a responsibility as ancestors for the future. I share your view completely. And the sooner we become aware of this and begin to address ourselves to this consciously as if it were an imminent threat. 乔：我记得曾经对你说过， 我在印度的一次演讲，题目叫做： “我们是合格的祖先吗？” 作为未来人类的祖先，我们肩负责任。 我完全同意你的观点。 我们意识到这一点越早越好， 我们应该把它看作是迫在眉睫的威胁， 自觉地尽快着手解决这个问题。
34:04 K: Again, I would like to point out, again, there are exceptions, but the vast majority who are not, in the way of looking at things, are electing governors, presidents, prime ministers, or totalitarians, they are suppressing everything. So, as the majority elect those, or the few gather power to themselves and dictate to others, – even the most exceptional people. So far they have not done it; they may say, ‘You can’t speak here anymore, or write any more. Don’t come here’. You understand? So there is on one side the urge to find security, to find some kind of peace somewhere. 克：我还想再说一下，虽然存在着例外的一些人， 但是绝大多数人， 并不那样看问题。他们选举州长， 选举总统，选举首相，或者极权主义者， 他们在压制一切。 那么，当大多数人选举那些人 或者少数人独揽大权，对其他人发号施令的时候， 我们就得听任...我们就落在他们手里了， 即使最例外的人也不能幸免。 到目前为止，他们还没有这么做；他们或许会说： “你不能再到这里讲话了，你不能再写东西了。别到这儿来了。” 你理解吗？ 因此，一方面存在着想要找到安全感， 想要在什么地方找到某种平静的冲动。
35:16 JS: Would you be willing to say that those who are now ruling and leading are lacking somehow in wisdom? 乔：你是不是想说， 现在的统治者和领导者， 有些缺乏智慧？
35:26 K: Oh, obviously, sir! 克：噢，这还用说，先生！
35:28 JS: Would you say that there are some who have the wisdom with which to lead and to guide? 乔：有些人具有这种领导和影响群众的智慧， 你会这么说吗？
35:35 K: Not when the whole mass of people want to be guided by somebody they elect, or don’t elect, they are by the tyrannies. So, what I am asking is really, how is a man, a human being, who is no longer individual – for me individuality doesn’t exist, we are human beings.

JS: That’s right. 		克：不会的，只要全体民众还都想选出什么人来， 听从他的指引， 或者不举行选举，因为他们受专制统治。 那么，我真正问的就是，一个人，一个人类， 他不再是一个个体，对我来说，个体并不存在， 我们是人类。

乔：没错。
36:05 K: We are humanity. 克：我们是人类。
36:08 JS: We are members of the species. We are cells of humankind. 乔：我们是人类物种的成员，我们是人类的细胞。
36:14 K: We are humanity. Our consciousness is not mine, it is the human mind. 克：我们是人类。 我们的意识不属于我自己，它是人类的意识。
36:20 K: Human heart, human love, all that, human. And by emphasizing, as they are doing now, individual, you fulfil yourself, do whatever you want to do, you know the whole thing, that is destroying the human relationship. 克：人类的爱心，人类的爱，等等，都是属于人类的。 而像他们现在那样强调个人主义， 实现自我，为所欲为。 那些你全都知道， 那种行为正在破坏着人类的关系。
36:40 JS: Yes. That’s fundamental. 乔：是的，那是根本问题。
36:43 K: And therefore there is no love, there is no compassion in all this. Just vast mass moving in a hopeless direction, and electing these extraordinary people to lead them. And they lead them to destruction. My point is, this has happened time after time, centuries after centuries. And if you are serious, either you give up, turn your back on it – I know several people who have said to me, ‘Don’t be a fool, you can’t change man. Go away. Retire. Go to the Himalayas and beg and live and die’. I don’t feel like that, but...

JS: Nor do I. 		克：因此，所有这一切当中没有爱，没有慈悲， 绝大多数人就这样朝着一个毫无希望的方向走， 选举出这些非常奇特的人来领导他们， 而这些人却把他们引向毁灭。 我的看法是，这种悲剧在一个又一个 世纪中反复上演。 如果你认真去思考，你要么会放弃、抛弃世人 ——我认识几个人，他们对我说过： “别犯傻了，你改变不了人，走开吧。 到喜马拉雅山去，到那里，去乞讨，生活，然后死掉吧。” 我不想那么做。不过...

乔：我也不想。
37:35 K: Of course. They have seen the hopelessness of all this. For me, I don’t see either hope or hopeless. 克：当然，他们看到这一切无可救药。 我不管它有希望还是没有希望。 它不是...我说事情现在是这个样子，它必须得改变。
37:49 JS: Exactly.

K: Instantly. 		乔：完全正确。

克：立刻改变。
37:50 JS: Exactly. All right. 乔：完全正确。 咱们... 对此看法一致。那么我们要从这往哪走呢？
38:01 K: I can’t go very far if I don’t start very near. The ‘very near’ is this.

JS: Yes. All right, let’s start here. Let’s start right here. 		克：如果不从很近处出发，我就走不了太远。 这个很近处就是这里。

乔：对。 好，咱们从这里出发，咱们就从这里出发。
38:11 K: Right here. If I don’t start here but start over there, I can’t do anything. So I start here. Now I say, who is me who is struggling through all this? What makes me behave this way? Why do I react? You follow, sir? 克：就从这里出发。如果不从这里，而是从那里出发， 我什么也做不了。因此，我从这里出发。 现在，我说，在这一切当中奋斗的我是谁？ 我是谁，自我是谁，谁... 是什么驱使我做出这样的举动？我为什么会做出反应？你理解吗，先生？
38:35 JS: Oh, yes, I follow you.

K: So that I begin to see myself, not theoretically but in a mirror of relationship with my wife, with my friends, how I behave, how I think – in that relationship I begin to see what I am. 		乔：我明白你的意思。

克：于是，我开始审视我自己， 不是从理论上，而是在关系之镜中， 在我与妻子、与朋友的关系当中观察 我怎样表现，怎样思考—— 在关系当中，我开始看到我是个什么样的人。
38:53 JS: Yes, that’s correct. You can see yourself only through reflection in another. 乔：的确。 只有从另一个人的反射中，才能看到自己。
38:57 K: Through relationship.

JS: Relationship. 		克：通过关系。

乔：关系。
39:01 K: In that there may be affection, there may be anger, there may be jealousy – I discover in all that the monstrous creature hidden in me, including the idea that there is something extraordinarily spiritual in me, all that I begin to discover. The illusions and the lies that man has lived with. And in that relationship I see if I want to change, I break the mirror. Which means I break the content of my whole consciousness. And perhaps out of that breaking down the content there is love, there is compassion, there is intelligence. There is no other intelligence except the intelligence of compassion. 克：在那种关系中可能会有关爱，可能会有愤怒， 可能会有嫉妒 ——在所有的关系当中，我发现了藏在我里面的那个骇人的家伙， 包括认为我里面存在着某种 非凡的精神实体的观念。 我开始发现所有那一切。 幻觉和谎言一直伴随着人类的生活。 在那种关系当中，我看到如果我想改变，我就会打碎镜子， 这意味着我把我意识的全部内容都给打碎了。 或许把它打碎之后才会有爱， 才会有慈悲，才会有智慧。 除了慈悲的智慧， 并不存在别的智慧。
40:03 JS: Well, having agreed on what the ultimate resolution can be, and having agreed that one has to begin here now. 乔：对于终极解决之道，对于你必须从这里开始、 从现在开始，我们已经意见一致。
40:20 K: Yes, sir. 克：好，先生。
40:20 JS: Here and now.

K: Yes, sir. Change now! Not wait for evolution to throttle you. 		乔：从这里，从现在开始。

克：对，先生。 现在就改变！ 不要等着进化来掐死你。
40:30 JS: Yes. Evolution can begin now. 乔：对。进化可以从现在开始。
40:36 K: If you like to put it that way. Evolution in the sense moving from this, breaking down to this, to something which thought cannot project. 克：你喜欢这样说也行。这个进化就是： 离开这里，打碎幻觉， 来到一个思想无法预测的地方。
40:49 JS: When I use the term, ‘evolution can begin now’, I am speaking of a mutational event. 乔：我说“进化可以从现在开始” 是在说突变。
40:56 K: A mutation, I agree. Mutation is not evolution. 克：突变。我同意。突变不是进化。
41:02 JS: But I am going to add one other factor that I think is important. I believe that individuals see the world in the same way as do you and I – there are others besides ourselves. They are others besides ourselves who see the problem this way, who see the solution that you speak of. Now let us refer to individuals such as that as exceptional, extraordinary. We might even think of them as unusual – as mutations, if you like. 乔：不过，我准备添加另外一个我认为比较重要的因素。 我相信， 像我们这样看待这个世界的， 还有其他人。 他们是这样看问题的另外一些人。 他们看到了您讲的解决之道。 咱们这样称呼这些人吧， 比如：出类拔萃的人，非常之人。 我们甚至可以把他们看作是奇人—— 发生了突变的人，要是你喜欢这个说法的话。
41:39 K: Biological freaks.

JS: If you like. Curious in some way, different from the rest. Can they be gathered together? Can they be selected? Will they select each other and come together, and become a force? 		克：生物学上的怪人。

乔：可以这么讲。 有些怪异，与众不同。 他们能聚集起来吗？他们能被挑选出来吗？ 他们会相互挑选，然后走到一起，形成一股力量吗？
41:58 K: They come together, not select each other. 克：他们走到一起，但不是经过互相挑选。
42:01 JS: I am using the term in the sense coming together because there is some sense of recognition, something that draws them together, it’s some self-selecting mechanism. Now can you imagine that making a difference? 乔：我说互相挑选，是从走到一起的角度上讲的， 因为在某种意义上存在着识别， 存在把他们吸引到一起的什么东西，这是某种自我选择的机制。 你能想象这种机制在起作用吗？
42:21 K: Perhaps a little. 克：或许也能想象一点。
42:24 JS: Can you imagine anything else making a difference? 乔：你能想象还有什么别的东西在起作用吗？
42:28 K: Not imagine, sir. I see – could we put it this way, sir: death has been one of the most extraordinary factors in life. We have avoided it, to look at it, because we are afraid what it is. We cling to all the things we have known, and we don’t want to let that go when we die. Now to die to all the things I am attached to. To die. Not say, ‘What will happen if I die, is there another reward?’ 克：不是想象，先生。我明白—— 我们这样说好吗，先生： 死亡一直是我们生活中最为奇特的因素， 我们一直回避它，尽量不看它，因为我们对死亡是什么感到害怕。 我们抓住我们所知道的一切， 临死也不肯撒手， 我们无法把它带走，却放不下。 现在让我执着的一切都死掉。 让它们死掉。 不说“我死了，是否另有回报？” 因为除非这个...生与死是相伴而行的。
43:32 JS: Yes, death is part of life.

K: Part of life. 		乔：对，死亡是生活的一部分。

克：是生活的一部分。
43:36 K: But very few move in that direction. 克：可是这样想的人太少了。
43:40 JS: I agree. We are talking now about the same exceptional individuals. 乔：是这样。 我们现在讨论的是同一部分出类拔萃的人。
43:46 K: And I am saying those exceptional individuals, have they – I am not pessimistic or optimistic, I am just looking at the facts – have they affected mankind? 克：可是，这些出类拔萃的人，—— 我既不悲观也不乐观，我只是在观察事实 ——他们对人类产生影响了吗？
44:00 JS: Not sufficiently, not yet. Not yet, not sufficiently. 乔：还不够，还没有。还没有，还不够。 我的看法是...
44:07 K: That they will affect in the future. we can make it happen sooner. another continuation of the self-centredness. 克：在未来他们会产生影响。

乔：...如果我们自觉地、有计划地采取行动， 我们就能让影响来得更早。

克：自觉地和有计划地，会不会是... 自我中心的另一种延续？
44:23 JS: Ah, but that is part of the condition it must not include. I understand that. That must be excluded. It must be species-centeredness, if you like – human being, humankind-centeredness, humanity-centeredness. It cannot be the same self-centredness to which you have been referring until now. That will be the mutational event. 乔：啊，不过，绝不能让它包含这部分内容。 我明白你的意思。必须摒除这种东西。 这种行动必须以物种为中心，要是你喜欢这么说的话，人， 以人为中心，以人类为中心。 它不能和你一直 在讲的自我中心一样。 它会是一个突变事件。
44:47 K: Yes, sir. End of the self-centredness. Do you know, they have tried to do this through meditation, they have tried to do this by joining Orders, by renouncing the world – the monks the nuns, the sannyasis of India. If I may point out something rather interesting: once when I was in Kashmir, I was walking behind a group of sannyasis, monks, there were about a dozen of them. And it was a beautiful country, a river on one side, flowers, spring, birds and an extraordinary blue sky. And everything was really laughing, earth was smiling. And these monks never looked at anything. Never. They kept their heads down, repeating some words in Sanskrit, which I could gather what it was, and that’s all. Put on blinkers and say well, there is safety. That’s what we have done, religiously, politically. So I say one can deceive so enormously. Deception is one of our factors. 克：是这样，先生。结束自我中心。 你知道吗？他们一直试图通过冥想， 通过加入宗教团体，通过弃绝尘世 来达到这个目的。和尚、修女、印度的托钵僧。 我讲个相当有趣的事儿吧： 有一次，在克什米尔， 我走在一群托钵僧，就是和尚的后面， 他们有十几个人。 这是一个美丽的地方， 路旁有一条河，春天里，有鲜花，有鸟儿， 天空湛蓝湛蓝的，令人惊讶。 万物都沉浸在欢乐之中，大地也在微笑。 而这些和尚们却从未看一看周围。 从来没有。他们低头重复着一些 我能猜出来的梵文唱颂，仅此而已。 蒙上眼睛，说，好，在这里就有安全感了。 这就是我们的所作所为，无论是宗教，还是政治。 所以我说，人竟然可以自欺欺人到这种地步。 欺骗是我们生活中的一个因素。
46:26 JS: Deception and denial.

K: Denial. 		乔：欺骗，拒不承认。

克：拒不承认。
46:29 JS: Negation.

K: We never – sir, we never start, as in Buddhism and Hinduism, with doubt. Doubt has an extraordinary factor – cleanses your... 		乔：拒绝。

克：我们从未——先生，我们从未 像佛教和印度教那样从怀疑开始。 怀疑具有一种非凡的因素，净化你的...
46:43 JS: Absolutely, yes. 乔：没有怀疑过，是这样。
46:44 K: But we don’t. We don’t doubt all that is going on around us. 克：可是，我们却不对身边的任何事情提出疑问。
46:54 JS: That is very unhealthy, and healthy doubt is necessary. 乔：那很不正常，正常的怀疑是有必要的。
47:00 K: Scepticism – I don’t – you show it to me. 克：怀疑主义—— 我不相信——你给我证明一下。
47:04 JS: Yes. We must question rather than accept the answers that have been given us. 乔：应该这样。我们必须提出疑问， 而不是接受人家的答案。
47:09 K: Of course. So, nobody can answer my problems. I have to resolve them. The mind that is trained to resolve problems, solutions, such a mind is always finding problems. But if the brain is not trained, educated to solve problems, it is free from problems. It can face problems but it is essentially free. 克：当然。所以，没有人能回答我的问题。 我必须把他们解决。 因此不要制造问题。我准备...我不想详细讨论那些方面。 头脑受到训练，解决问题，寻找办法， 这样的头脑总是在提出新的问题。 如果我们不训练、教育头脑解决问题， 它就摆脱了问题。 它就能够面对问题，并且在本质上又是自由的。
47:44 JS: There are some brains, if you like, some minds that create problems, and some that solve problems. And what you are posing now is the question: can we solve the ultimate problem, the ultimate question with which we are confronted? Which is, can we go on as a species, or will we destroy ourselves? 乔：有些大脑， 要是可以这么说的话，有些头脑制造问题， 而有些头脑则解决问题。 你现在问的就是： 我们能否解决 我们所面临的终极问题： 我们作为一个物种能否存在下去， 还是说我们将自取灭亡？
48:11 K: Yes. Death. That’s why I said death – I brought it in earlier. Death to things that I have gathered psychologically. 克：是的。死亡。那就是为什么我说到死亡——我在这之前提出死亡。 让我在心理上积累的东西死掉。
48:23 JS: We have to accept the death of those things of the past that are no longer valuable, and allow the birth of those new things that are necessary for the new future. I quite agree that the past must come to an end. 乔：没有价值的过去的东西， 我们必须接受它们的死亡； 新的未来需要有新的东西， 我们也必须接受它们的诞生。 我非常赞同这一点，过去必须结束。
48:39 K: Oh yes, sir. 克：是这样，先生。
48:41 JS: War must come to an end. 乔：战争必须结束。
48:43 K: That means the brain must record the past – record. 克：战争意味着大脑必须记录过去——记录。
48:48 JS: Yes. 乔：对。
48:49 K: But the brain is recording. recording then it plays the tape. 克：而大脑在进行记录。

乔：不停地记录。

克：不停地记录。 因而...它在 记录，然后它播放磁带。
49:00 JS: It is recording and it is recognizing. 乔：它在记录，它在识别。
49:03 K: Yes, of course.

JS: It is re-cognizing. It is re-examining what it already knows. Now we must at this point in time recognize what has happened in the past, and become aware that there must be a new way. 		克：嗯，当然。

乔：它在重新识别。 它在重新检视它早已知道的东西， 现在，在这里我们终于必须 认识到过去发生了什么， 并意识到必须出现一种新的方式。
49:20 K: Which is, don’t record. Why should I record? Language and so on, let’s leave all those out. Why should I psychologically record anything? You hurt me, suppose. You say some brutal thing to me, why should I record it? 克：就是不做记录。 我为什么要记录？ 语言之类的东西，咱们全都先放在一边。 为什么我要在心理上做记录？ 比方说，你伤害过我。 对我出言不逊，我为什么要记着？
49:49 JS: I would relegate it to what I call the ‘forgettery’. 乔：我会把它抛到脑后，抛到我所谓的“忘却之地”。
49:52 K: No, no. I mean, I would say why should I record it? Or somebody flatters me, why should I record it? What a bore it is to react in the same old pattern. 克：我不是这个意思。为什么要记着它？ 或者，有人恭维我，为什么我要记着？ 老套的反应模式，多烦人，多没意思啊。
50:05 JS: It records itself, but it must be relegated. whether it is possible not to record at all. Psychologically I am talking about, not the recording of driving a car or this or that, but psychologically not to record anything. 乔：头脑本身做记录，但它必须将记录抛在脑后。

克：也不是，我在质疑。注意，先生， 有没有可能根本就不记录。 我说的是心理上的事儿， 不是记录怎么开车或者具体什么事情， 而是在心理上不做任何记录。
50:30 JS: Are you able to do that?

K: Oh yes! Otherwise I wouldn’t be talking.

JS: You must be able to discriminate between what you record and what you don’t record. 		乔：你能做到吗？

克：噢，可以的！ 否则我现在不会讲这个。

乔：你必须能够 区分记录什么和不记录什么。
50:43 K: The memory is selective. 克：记忆有选择性。
50:45 JS: Yes, and that was why I used that humorous way of putting it: you select by putting some in the place of memory, and some in the place of ‘forgettery’. A way of selecting that which you choose... 乔：对。所以我开玩笑说： “你的选择就是把有的东西放在记忆里， 有的则抛到‘忘却之地’” 你的选择方式...
51:01 K: Not ‘choose’. I have to record how to drive a car. Record how to speak a language. If I have to learn a skill, I have to record it. In the physical world I have to record: from here to go to my house or to Paris, I have to do various – I have to record all that. But I am asking why should there be recording of any psychological event? Which then emphasizes the self, the ‘me’, the self-centred activity and all the rest of it. 克：不“选择”。我必须记录如何开车。 记录如何讲一门语言。 学习一门手艺，我必须把它记下来。 在物理世界，我必须记录： 从这里到我的家，或者到巴黎怎么走， 我必须做各种——我必须记录所有的东西。 而我问的是， 为什么要记录心理上发生的事儿？ 而这会强调自我，“我”， 自我中心的活动等等。
51:46 JS: Well, let’s deal with that for a moment because it seems to be very central to what you are saying, and to what I implied earlier when I used the term ‘self-restraint’. I think we are talking about the same category of phenomena: the need perhaps to liberate ourselves from those experiences in life that make us vindictive, that make it difficult for us to join together, to relate to those who may have injured us in the past. And we see this amongst nations now, between religious groups and others, who are incapable of forgiving the present generation that had nothing to do with the perpetration of events at some previous time in history. Therefore we are now beginning to approach the question that I posed earlier: what is it that we must do, what might we do now to deal with the cause of the effects that we want to avoid? You have identified these as psychological. You have identified these as within the human mind. 乔：嗯，咱们讨论一下。 看来这个问题非常重要，无论是对你正在讲的东西， 还是对我提到“自我克制”时要阐明的东西而言。 我认为我们说的是同一类现象， 我们可能需要从生活的经验中解脱出来， 它们让我们心存报复， 难以团结， 难以体恤过去伤害过我们的人。 我们看到，在国家之间， 宗教团体和其他群体之间， 都存在这种现象：现在这代人 得不到理智的对待和原谅，尽管历史上 某个时期发生的罪行跟他们毫无关系。 因此，我们正在处理 我前面提出的问题： 我们该如何去做？ 现在我们要避免那种后果， 我们该如何对待造成这种后果的起因。 你把它们归结为心理方面的原因， 你认为原因存在于人的内心当中。
53:00 K: So the first thing I would say don’t identify yourself with anything – with a group, with a country, with a god, with ideologies – right? – don’t identify. Then that which you identify with must be protected – your country, your god, your conclusions, your experience, your biases and so on. This identification is a form of self-centred activity. 克：所以，我首先要说的是， 不要认同任何东西， 不要认同任何团体、国家、上帝和思想体系 ——对吧？——不要认同。 否则，你认同的东西就必须得到保护。 ——你的国家，你的上帝，你的结论， 你的经验，你的偏见等等。 而这种认同就是一种自我中心的活动。
53:39 JS: Now let us assume for the sake of argument that there is a need to identify with things, or to relate to things or to each other. This is the basis for religion, which means – it comes from the word ‘religio’, to tie together – and there is a need that human beings have for relationship. Now they may very well enter into relationships that are harmful, that in fact are self-destructive. Now is it possible to address ourselves to the kinds of relationships which, if developed, would allow us to relinquish those that are now harmful? For example, the most fundamental relationship is to ourselves, not in the self-centred sense, but to ourselves as members of the human species, and to each other. 乔：为了便于讨论， 咱们假设有必要认同，或者说， 有必要与事物产生关系，彼此间产生关系。 认同是宗教的基础， 宗教的意思是——它来自于“religio”这个词，绑在一起 ——人类也有建立关系的需要。 他们很可能形成了有害的关系， 实际上这是在自我毁灭。 我们有没有可能把精力 放在某些关系上， 而发展这些关系，会让我们放弃现在 各种有害的关系。 比如，最基本的关系是和我们自身的关系， 这不是从自我中心出发， 而是我们作为人类物种的一员 彼此之间的关系。
54:38 K: That is, my relationship as a human being with the rest of humanity.

JS: Yes. 		克：就是我作为一个人类 与其他人类的关系。

乔：是这样。
54:47 K: Now, just a minute, sir. Relationship implies two: my relationship with you, with another. But I am humanity! I am not separate from my brother across the ocean. 克：嗯，稍等一下，先生。 关系意味着两个方面： 我和你，我和另一个人的关系。 可是我是人类！ 我和我大洋彼岸的兄弟并不是相互独立的。
55:04 JS: You are not. 乔：是这样。
55:06 K: I am humanity. Therefore if I have this quality of love, I have established relationship. There is relationship. 克：我是人类。因此如果我有这种爱的品质， 我就已经建立关系了。 关系就存在了。
55:20 JS: I think that it exists. I think you have it, and your brothers across the sea have it, in all of the countries of the world this exists, but we are taught to hate. We are taught to hate each other. We are taught to separate ourselves from the other. 乔：我认为它是存在的。 我认为你有这种爱，你在大洋彼岸的兄弟有这种爱， 在世界上所有国家中这种关系都是存在的。 而我们受的教育却是仇恨，彼此憎恨， 把我们自己和别人分开。
55:39 JS: There is a deliberate...

K: Not only, sir, taught, but isn’t there this feeling of possessiveness in which there is security and pleasure? I possess my property, I possess my wife, I possess my children, I possess my god. I am trying to say, this sense of isolating process is so strong in us that we can’t train ourselves to be out of this. I say, see the fact that you are the rest of mankind, for god’s sake see it! 		乔：存在一种有意的...

克：先生，不只是教育， 难道不存在这种包含着安全感 和快乐的占有感吗？ 我占有我的财产，我占有我的妻子， 我占有我的孩子，我占有我的上帝。 我要说的是 在我们心里，隔离过程的这种感觉太强烈了， 我们无法通过自我训练，从里面跳出去。 看看这个事实，你是其他的人类， 看在上帝的份上，看看它！
56:26 JS: Well what you are saying is that we are both individual and also related to the rest of humankind.

K: Ah, no, no. I say you are not an individual. Your thinking is not yours. Your consciousness is not yours, because every human being suffers, every human being goes through hell, turmoil, anxieties, agonies, which every human being whether West or East or North or South, are going through. So we are human beings, not, I am a separate human being therefore I am related to the rest of the human beings; I am the rest of humanity. 		乔：你说的是我们 既是个体，也和其他 人类有关系。

克：啊，不是这个意思。 我说你不是一个个体，你的思考不是你的思考。 你的意识不是你的意识，因为每个人都受苦， 每个人都吃尽了苦头。无论东西南北， 每个人 都在经历着内心的混乱、焦虑、遭受着巨大的痛苦。 所以我们是人类， 不是说我是一个独立的人， 我因此和别人产生关系； 我就是其他人类。
57:17 JS: Now we want to transform one state to another. 乔：我们想把一种状态转变为另一种状态。
57:21 K: You can’t transform.

JS: All right, what can you do? 		克：你转变不了。

乔：好吧，你能做什么呢？
57:24 K: Change, mutate. You can’t change one form into another form. See that you are actually, the truth, that you are the rest of mankind. Sir, when you see that, feel it in your – if I may use the word ‘guts’ – in your blood, then your whole activity, your whole attitude, your whole way of living changes. Then you have a relationship which is not two images fighting each other, a relationship that is living, alive, full of something, beauty. But again we come back – the exceptions. 克：改变，突变。 你无法将一种形式变为另一种形式。 看看这个事实， 实际上你就是其他人类。 先生。当你看到那个事实， 当你用直觉和天性感受到它的时候， 你所有的行为，你的整个态度， 你的生活方式就全变了。 你就拥有一种新的关系， 它不再是两个形象之间的斗争， 而是鲜活、丰盈、充满了美的关系。 不过我们又说回来，例外的那些人。
58:14 JS: They exist. Now let’s focus on the exceptions for a moment because we have already established those that are the predominant species, shall we say, the predominant variety. And let’s, as a practical matter, address ourselves to the role that the exceptional ones might have in bringing about the kind of change that would be tantamount to a mutational event for the species as a whole. 乔：这些人是存在的。 嗯，咱们关注一下例外的人。 因为我们已经明确了那些主流物种， 应该说占优势的那一类人的主导地位。 作为一个实际问题，咱们考虑一下， 这些例外的人可能会带来某种改变， 这无异于让整个物种 发生突变，他们在这里面 起到了怎样的作用？
58:54 K: Suppose, sir, you are one of the exceptions. 克：假设，先生，你是一个例外的人。

乔：嗯。

克：我不是假设，请理解，我...
59:03 JS: I understand. 乔：我理解。
59:05 K: What’s your relationship with me who is just an ordinary person? Have you any relationship with me? 克：我只是个普通人。你和我是什么关系？ 你和我有关系吗？
59:15 JS: Yes.

K: What is that? 		乔：有啊。

克：什么关系呢？
59:18 JS: We are the same species. 乔：我们同属于一个物种。
59:19 K: Yes, but you have stepped out of that. You are an exception. That’s what we are talking about. You are an exception and I am not. Right? What is your relationship with me? 克：没错。可是你已经跳出去了，你是一个例外。 我们讨论的就是这个。你是例外，而我不是。 对吧？你和我是什么关系？
59:36 JS: I am...

K: Have you any? 		乔：我...

克：你和我有关系吗？
59:38 JS: Yes. 乔：有。
59:43 K: Or you are outside trying to help me. 克：还是说，你在外面，在尽力帮助我？
59:48 JS: No, I have a relationship with you and a responsibility because your wellbeing will influence my wellbeing. Our wellbeing is one and the same. 乔：不，我和你有关系，我对你负有责任， 因为你的幸福会影响到我的幸福。 我们的幸福是一体的。
1:00:01 K: No, sir. You are an exception. You are not psychologically putting things together. You are out of that category. And I am all the time gathering – right? – putting, you know, all the rest of it. There is a vast division between freedom and the man who is in prison. I am in prison, of my own making and the prison made by politicians, books and all the rest of it – I am in prison, you are not, you are free. And I would like to be like you. 克：不，先生。你是例外的人。 你不积累心理上的东西。 你不属于那一类人。 而我无时无刻不在收集——对吧？—— 无时无刻不在积累，等等。 自由民和囚犯之间 存在着巨大的鸿沟。 我被囚禁在这个我自己建造的监狱里， 这个由政客、书本之类的东西建造的监狱里 ——我被关起来了，而你没有，你是自由的。 我想和你一样自由。
1:00:45 JS: And I would like to help liberate you. 乔：我希望帮助你解脱出来。
1:00:48 K: Therefore what’s your relationship? A helper? Or you have real compassion – not for me – – the flame of it, the perfume, the depth, the beauty, the vitality and the intelligence of it – compassion, love. That’s all. That will affect much more than your decision to help me. 克：所以你的关系是什么呢？你提供帮助？ 还是你有着真正的慈悲——不是为我—— 而是你拥有它的激情和芬芳，它的深沉和美， 它的活力和智慧——就是慈悲和爱。 这就是全部。 你想帮我，但相比之下，慈悲心的影响要大得多。
1:01:17 JS: I agree with that. We are in complete agreement. That’s how I see the exceptional. And I see that the exceptional individuals possess the quality of compassion. 乔：正是这样，我们意见完全一致。 我对这些出类拔萃的人就是这么看的， 我看到他们拥有 这种慈悲的品质。
1:01:30 K: Yes, sir. And compassion cannot be put together by thought. 克：是这样，先生。慈悲心是思想拼凑不出来的。
1:01:38 JS: It exists. 乔：它存在着。
1:01:40 K: Ah, how can it exist when I have hate in my heart, when I want to kill somebody, when I am crying how can that exist? There must be freedom from all that before the other is. 克：啊，要是我心中有仇恨， 要是我想杀死某个人，要是我叫喊着问， 怎样才能有慈悲心？它怎么可能存在？ 摆脱一切束缚之后别的事物才会出现。
1:01:56 JS: I am focusing my attention now on the exceptional. 乔：我在关注那些出类拔萃的人。
1:02:00 K: I am doing that. 克：我也是。
1:02:02 JS: And do those have hatred in their hearts? The exceptional ones? 乔：他们心中有仇恨吗？ 那些出类拔萃的人？
1:02:08 K: Sir, it is like the sun, sir. Sunshine isn’t yours or mine. We share it. But the moment it is my sunshine it becomes childish. So all that you can be, like the sun, the exception like the sun, give me compassion, love, intelligence, nothing else – don’t say, do this, don’t do that – then I fall into the trap, which all the churches, religions have done. Freedom means, sir, to be out of the prison; prison which man has built for himself. And you who are free, be there. You follow? That’s all. You can’t do anything. 克：先生，它像是太阳。阳光不分你的、我的。 我们分享着阳光。 而一旦它成了我的，那种想法就很幼稚了。 所以，你能做的，就是像太阳一样， 那些出类拔萃的人像太阳一样， 给予我慈悲、爱和智慧。除此之外，别无其它。 ——不要说，这么做，不能那么做—— 那样的话，我就落入陷阱里了， 那是所有教会、宗教做过的事。 先生，自由意味着走出监狱； 走出人给自己造的监狱。 作为一个自由的人，你全心投入，活在当下。 你理解吗？就这些，你什么也做不了。
1:03:08 JS: I hear you say something very positive, very important, very significant. I hear you say that there does exist people, individuals, a group of individuals, who possess these qualities for emanating something that could help the rest of humankind. 乔：你讲的东西非常积极、非常重要、 非常有意义。 我听到你说，确实有人， 确实有一群人， 他们拥有这种品质，他们释放出某种信息， 某种可以帮助他人的信息。
1:03:33 K: You see, that’s the whole concept – I don’t want to go into that, that’s too irrelevant – that there are such people who help – not guide, tell you what to do, it all becomes so silly. Just like sun, like the sun giving light. And if you want to sit in the sun, you sit in it; if you don’t, you sit in the shadow. 克：你知道，大概就是这些 ——我不想去细究它，那无关紧要—— 有这样的人，他们给予帮助 ——不是指导、告诉你该去干什么，那太愚蠢了。 就是像太阳一样，像太阳一样发光。 你要是想在阳光下坐着，你就坐在那儿； 你要是不想，你就坐在阴影里。

乔：所以正是那种觉悟...
1:04:06 K: That is enlightenment. And I think that that is what you have given us today. 克：那就是觉悟。

乔：...我们将要接受阳光的觉悟。 我想，这就是今天您给予我们的东西。
1:04:20 K: Is that finished? It is time. It’s eleven o’clock. Right, sir. 克：结束了吗？时间到了。 现在11点了。好，先生。