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OJ84Q2 - 第二次问答会
美国加州，欧亥
1984年5月24日



0:56 Glancing through the questions... we never seem to ask... questions concerning our daily life. And there have been a lot of theoretical... ideological questions... that really have no meaning at all. One wonders why one doesn't ask questions... about one's own life... depression, anxiety... a sense of deep loneliness and so on. Aren't we really concerned with our daily life... or is it just that we live in a make-believe world... and try to find answers to some romantic... sentimental, idealistic, or religious beliefs? I wonder why, one asks, if I may... why don't we ask such questions directly, simply about oneself? 浏览这些问题 我们似乎从来不问 与我们的日常生活息息相关的问题。 有很多理论上的 意识形态上的问题 它们根本就没有任何意义。 我很纳闷一个人为什么从来不问 关于自己生活的问题 沮丧，焦虑 深深的孤独感，等等。 我们难道真的不关心|我们的日常生活吗 还是我们只是生活在一个信以为真的世界里 并试图找到答案来回答某些浪漫的 伤感的，理想主义的，或者宗教信念的问题？ 我不明白为什么，如果可以，我想问 我们为什么不直接、简明地对自己提出这些质疑？
2:38 We all want to end war... at least some people do. And pacem in terris, that is, peace on earth, in Latin... is not possible, apparently, in this world... in spite of demonstrations... in spite of all the preaching of the priests... and religious books and so on... we can never have peace in this world apparently. And we never ask if one can live peacefully in our daily life... without any violence... without all the innumerable multiplying problems... live a clear, simple, strong life. Apparently that is not possible... and we don't ask such questions. 我们都希望结束战争 至少一部分人是这样。 “和平于世”，在拉丁语里的意思是世上的和平 显然，现在不可能降临于整个世界 尽管人们游行、集会 尽管牧师传道 以及出版诸多宗教书籍等等 很明显，我们从未能够让和平降临于世。 并且我们从来不问一个人是否能够过上平和的日常生活 没有任何暴力 没有所有那些无穷无尽的问题 活在清晰，简单，坚定的生活当中。 很明显这并不可能 而且我们也并没有如此质疑。
4:02 May I raise a question? Why do you come? Please, I really mean it, why are we all here? When the speaker is in India... and talks to between 5 to 8 thousand people at every meeting... they come there... most of them understand English... and most of them come... to be in the presence of a religious person... at least they quote, 'religious person'. They don't quite understand what the speaker is talking about... I am sure they don't. But they must come as it is the tradition, it is the fashion... it is the reputation, the image... and all that nonsense... I was going to use a stronger word! And perhaps you come here out of curiosity... or to spend a nice morning... under the trees, and the dappled light... or take a sun bath and listen to the poor chap. And so you go on that way. All this doesn't actually deeply, profoundly change us. What makes human beings change? This is really a very serious question. Why do we behave as we do behave? Is it possible that suffering... pain, anxiety... a sense of desperate depression... out of which one finds oneself... almost impossible to get out of... and the terrible ambitions... and the competition, and all that kind of thing that is going on... can we change all that, each one? And you will inevitably ask, does it really matter... if I change, if one changes... will it in any way affect the whole human endeavour... and their mischief, and their superstitions and violence? And one thinks that is a wrong question to put. That is, you will change only... if it affects the rest of the world. And if it doesn't, it doesn't matter very much how one lives. 我可以提一个问题么？ 你们为什么而来？ 注意，我是认真的，我们为什么聚集在这里？ 当讲话者在印度的时候 每次会议都面对着5千至8千人 听众们来到会场 他们大多数懂英语 他们大多数的到场 是作为一个宗教人士 至少他们称作，“宗教人士”。 其实他们并不十分明白演讲者所说的内容 我敢肯定他们不懂。 但他们必须来，因为这是一个传统、一种潮流 这是名望，是形象 以及所有那些无稽之谈 我本打算用一个更强烈的词！ 可能你们来这里是出于好奇 或者想度过一个美好的上午 在大树的荫蔽下，在日光的斑驳中 晒晒太阳，听听这个可怜的家伙的讲述。 所以你们继续着这些事情。 但所有这些并不会真的、深刻的、彻底地改变我们。 那么什么会让人类改变？ 这真是一个非常严肃的问题。 为什么我们持续着我们既有的行为方式？ 是否有可能改变那些苦难 痛苦、焦虑 令人绝望的沮丧感觉 那种令人觉得 无法自拔的感受 以及可怕的野心 竞争，和所有发生着的类似事情 我们能否改变这一切，每个人? 你不可避免地会问，改变真的那么要紧吗 如果我去改变，如果一个人去改变 这是否会改变整个人类的努力 以及人类的灾难、迷信和暴力？ 我认为这是提出的一个错误问题。 也就是说，你只有在确定这会影响整个世界的前提下 你才会改变。 如果并非如此，一个人怎样生活也就不那么重要了。
8:06 One wonders if you have ever considered... how one man can change... the whole human consciousness, human beings. One man. As a bad example of a neurotic and insane person like Hitler... who has done such tremendous harm to the world... he has changed... or affected the rest of the world... their consciousness, their behaviour. And you might also say, has the Buddha... two thousand five hundred years ago... has he in any way affected the world? Or the Christians believe in the saviour, Jesus and all that... have they really changed the world... changed human minds... human behaviour, endless suffering? Or have the priests throughout the world... prevented this change? You understand my question? One has no direct - direct... teachings of the Buddha, or that of Jesus. His teachings apparently were interpreted after sixty years... so there is no direct teachings. And perhaps that has prevented human beings... from acting rightly. So one wonders all along the long journey of one's life... why profoundly human beings don't change their ways of life. Is more suffering necessary? Is more violence necessary? More experts and so on? Or we haven't got the energy, the drive, the passion... the intensity to change... the pattern of one's deep behaviours? 我在想你们是否曾思考过 一个人怎么能够改变 整个人类的意识及人类本身。 一个人。 举一个不好的例子，譬如像希特勒一样病态疯狂的人 他对世界进行了如此巨大的破坏 他改变了 或者影响了整个世界 包括人们的意识、行为。 你可能又会问，佛陀 两千五百年之前的佛陀 他究竟有没有改变世界？ 或者基督教徒们信仰的救世主、耶稣等等 他们都有没有真正改变世界 改变人类的心智 人类的行为，及无休止的苦难？ 或者全世界的牧师们 是否阻止了这场改变？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 人并没有直接地——直接地 从佛陀或者耶稣那里获得教诲。 他的教诲都是在六十年后被别人阐释的 所以根本没有直接的教诲。 很可能这阻止了人类 采取正确的行为。 所以我想，在一个人漫长的生命之旅中 为什么人们固执地不去改变他们的生活方式。 必须要有更多的苦难么？ 必须要有更多的暴力么？ 更多的专家，如此等等？ 还是我们没有能量，动力、热情 以及激情去改变 我们根深蒂固的行为方式？
11:33 Please do ask these questions of yourself. And here there are many questions given. Questions imply problems. And problems ought to be solved. Not in the resolution of one problem... a dozen other problems arise. The ending of a problem, of any problem. And apparently we don't seem able to do that, either politically... economically, socially and so on, or religiously. It is a perpetual reorganisation. When that reorganisation doesn't function properly... reorganise it... keep on reorganising every organisation. I don't know if you have not noticed this. And this is called progress. This is called bringing about order in the world. Can one put aside... all organisations, spiritual specially... if one can use that word that has been so spoilt... not belong to anything at all... not be caught in any box, in any system... and work, look, observe... perceive one's own behaviour, change? 请认真地问一问自己这个问题。 这里提出了很多的问题。 质疑意味着问题存在。 问题应该被解决。 而不是在解决一个问题的过程中 产生一堆别的问题。 而是终结一个问题，终结所有问题。 很明显，我们似乎不可能做到这一点，无论从政治上 经济上，社会上，宗教上等等。 这将永远是场重组。 当这个重组不能恰当地运作 就再重组它 持续不断的重组每一个组织。 我不知道你们是否已经注意到这点。 这就是所谓的进步。 这就是所谓的给世界带来秩序。 我们能不能把这些放到一边 所有这些组织，尤其是灵性上的 如果我还可以用这个词的话，这个词已经面目全非 可否不属于任何事物 也不陷入任何框架、体系中 而是去工作、去看、去观察 去察觉我们自身的行为，并且改变？
14:01 And why doesn't one do all this? Why does one depend on others? Please do ask these questions... most seriously if one may request you. 为什么没有人这样做？ 为什么人都依赖他人？ 请问问自己这些问题 极其认真地问，如果我可以请求你这么做的话。
14:35 1st QUESTION: There are moments of awareness... in which there is great clarity... and fear, division, and the experiences are absent. But the moments are brief. What is necessary to allow a sustained clarity... intensity, and the wholeness of being? 第一个问题：有一些觉察的时刻 极其清明的时刻 恐惧、界分，以及一切经验都不在了。 但这样的时刻是短暂的。 怎样才能让清明持续 让热情及存在的整体性持续？
15:08 There are moments of awareness in which there is great clarity... and fear, division, and the experiences are absent. But the moments are brief. What is necessary to allow a sustained clarity... intensity, and the wholeness of being? 有这样一些觉察的时刻，极其清明的时刻 恐惧、界分，以及一切经验都不在了。 但这样的时刻是短暂的。 怎样才能让清明持续 让热情及存在的整体性持续？
15:43 Whom are you asking this question? This is apparently a serious question. It looks serious. Whom are you asking? And you want a reply from somebody. That somebody is the speaker here, for the moment. If the speaker doesn't satisfy you with the answer... you trot off to somebody else. And if that somebody else isn't good enough you go after somebody else. You keep this going. And that means, doesn't it... we depend on others to tell us what to do... what to think, how to find clarity... sanity, a wholeness of life. Always, apparently, we depend on somebody. We never look into this question, ask ourselves... and see if we can, for ourselves... totally independent of others... find out if it is possible... to be absolutely unconfused... to be absolutely clear... not momentarily... not occasionally when you have nothing else to do... but is it possible? Not the continuity of clarity. You understand? Suppose one is clear for a moment... and that clarity for a second... banishes away fear, experiences and all that... then that memory of that clarity... is not the fact of clarity. Right? I wonder if you see this? Suppose I am walking in the woods... not in California, here... it is too strong the sun... suppose one is walking among the woods... and listening to the birds, and to the spotted lights... and the beauty of the foliage... and for a moment there is absolute clarity. And that clarity has left... an imprint on the brain... it says, 'By Jove, how clear it was.' Then one wants that clarity to continue... don't we? Like pleasure, you want it to continue. The continuity is the movement of memory. Right? I must go into all that. 这个问题你在问谁？ 显然这是一个严肃的问题。看起来很严肃。 你在问谁？ 你希望从某人那里得到回答。 这个人此刻是这个讲话者。 如果讲话者的回答没有令你满意 你又转向他人。 如果这个别人还不够好你又去找下一个人... 你继续如此下去。 这不是就意味着 我们依赖别人来告诉我们该做什么 该想什么，怎样找到清明 理智，及生命的完整。 很明显，我们总是依靠别人。 我们从不观察问题本身，问问我们自己 看我们是否能够，为了自己 完全独立于他人地 去发现这是否可能 可否完全无所困惑 完全地清明 不是暂时的 不是偶尔当你没有其他事可做的时候 而这真的可能么？ 而不是清明的持续。 你明白吗？ 假设一个人在某刻很清晰 这种清明持续了一秒钟 祛除了恐惧、经验及其他所有的 之后这有关清明的记忆 并不是真实的清明本身... 对不对？ 我不知道你们是否看到了这点？ 假设我在树林中行走 不是在加利福尼亚，就在这儿 阳光太强烈 假设一个人正行走在树林中 聆听着鸟鸣，以及斑驳的阳光 和树叶的美 在那一时刻有着纯粹的清明。 然后那清明留下了 脑中的标记 它说，“天啊，如此清晰。” 然后就希望那种清明能持续 我们不就是这样吗？ 就像欢愉，你希望它持续。 这种持续其实是记忆的运转。是不是？ 我必须深入这些问题。
19:56 It involves time, doesn't it? Anything that continues must have time, the implication of time. And time will not allow clarity. It is the freedom from time that is clarity. Let's go into this again, if we may. 它包含着时间，不是吗？ 任何持续的事物必然包含着时间、时间的含义。 但时间不会允许清明存在。 摆脱了时间的自由才是清明。 如果可以，让我们再深入一次。
20:29 Say, for example, one wants security, psychologically. And one for a few seconds, or for a few days, one has this feeling... of absolutely being safe... protected, solidly secure. Then that disappears after a few days. But the memory of that feeling remains. And we want to continue that... which has happened two days ago. Right? This is what we are all caught in. That is, the duration of an experience which has finished... and the memory of it we want... the memory wants continuity of that thing which has happened. So if we could look at this question... time by the watch... by the sunset and sunrise... time as day and night... time of year and so on, that is there is time. And thought is also time. Right? You are following this? Time is a movement of thought... from the past to the present and the future... which is a movement of time. This movement has its own continuity. Right? Are we together following this? And the brain, which has evolved through time, says... continuity is essential because... you understand?.. for it to continue it is essential. Physically, biologically, it is necessary. But psychologically it wants also to continue. So the brain becomes confused... when there is no continuity. Are you following all this? Are we together somewhat in this? 举例来说，一个人想得到心理上的安全。 他拥有了几秒钟，或者几天这种感觉 绝对安全的感觉 被保护着的，牢固的安全感。 而这种感觉在几天后消失了。 但是对这种感觉的记忆留下了。 我们试图让这感觉继续 这个发生在两天前的感觉。 是不是？这就是我们所陷入的问题。 这就是已经结束的经验持续的那段时间 当我们回忆这种体验，我们希望 记忆希望继续保持那已经发生过的感受。 所以如果我们可以观察这个问题 时间，手表上的时间 随着日升日落 白天黑夜的时间 一年或者其他等等也就是说，时间存在着。 其实思想也是时间。是不是？ 你们跟上了么？ 时间是思想的运动 从过去到现在再到未来 这就是时间的运动。 这种运动有它自己的持续性。对不对？ 我们都一起跟上了吗？ 于是头脑，通过时间进化的大脑，会说 持续是必要的因为 你明白吗？ 要想头脑继续存在时间是必要的。 从物理学角度，生物学角度，这都是必要的。 但从心理上头脑也想持续下去。 所以头脑变得迷惑 当持续性不在的时候。 你们都跟上了吗？ 我们多少会有些共鸣吧？
23:35 And one questions whether there is psychological continuity at all. You understand my question? We are questioning, I am not stating... is there psychological continuity at all? That is, the moments of clarity... which banishes, puts aside all fear... all problems, and all the travail of life... it happens in a moment. And the brain says, it must continue. Because it only thinks in terms of time, a continuity. You understand? Biologically it is necessary to continue day after day. Right? The same house, same food, same clothes... same roof over the head. Psychologically also we want in relationship security to continue. Right? Are you following all this? Is there in relationship security at all? Which is a duration of long period of time. When there is the demand for that there is conflict. I wonder if you understand this. Oh, no! 我质疑在心理上究竟是否存在持续性。 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们在质疑，我不是在陈述 究竟是否存在心理上的持续？ 也就是，清明的时刻 也就是消除了，抛开了所有恐惧 所有问题，以及所有生命的痛苦 清明发生在这一刻。 头脑会说，这清明必须要持续。 因为头脑只会按照时间去思考，这是一种延续。你明白吗？ 从生物学考虑，一天天的持续是必要的。对不对？ 同样的房子，同样的食物，同样的衣服 头上同样的屋顶。 从心理的角度我们同样希望关系中的安全可以持续。 对不对？你们都跟上了么？ 在关系中安全究竟是否存在？ 这种安全是一段很长时间的持续。 当有这种需求存在的时候冲突也就产生了。 我不知道你们明不明白这点。 哦，没有！
25:37 Relationship, as it is very important... it is a tremendously important thing in life, relationship... one cannot possibly exist in this world without relationship... whether you are a monk, a sannyasi, a wanderer... you are always related to the past or to a person... or to a concept of the future. It isn't just merely physical relationship. As relationship is very seriously important in life... there are moments in which relationship has great depth... silence and a sense of tremendous well-being. Right? Don't you know all this? The speaker hasn't to go through all this, but he will go through it. And that, those moments of deep sense of fullness, wholeness... is registered, recorded in the brain... and the function of the brain is to record and keep it going. And so the memory begins to play an important part. 关系，是非常重要的 它是生活中极其重要的事情，关系 一个人不可能脱离关系存在于世上 不论你是修道士，遁世者，或者流浪者 你都要和过去或者某个人有所关联 或者和某种未来的想法有关联。 这不仅仅是物理上的联系。 关系在生活中是非常重要的 在有些时候，关系具有巨大的深度 宁静以及一种无以伦比的美好感觉。 对不对？你们知道这些么？ 讲话者没必要讨论所有这些，但这点他必须强调。 那些感到深切的充实、完整的片刻 被我们记录、铭刻在脑中 大脑的功能便是记录这些时刻并让它们延续。 所以记忆起了很重要的作用。
27:23 So one questions whether there is security at all... in relationship? You understand my question? We want it. We think it is absolutely necessary, but is there? Please ask yourself. Security means permanency... and is there anything in life permanent? Death is always there, but let's leave death alone for the moment. Is there anything permanent in life? We want to have something permanent. Apparently religious people say, god is permanent. That's a marvellous invention but it has very little meaning. So we are seeking in relationship security and permanency. That very concept... please listen to this for a minute... that very concept of demanding security and permanency... is translated as attachment. Right? So there is deep attachment to another. It may be for a month, for a week, or for fifty years. And during this state of attachment... there is all the conflict of jealousy... suspicion, fear, gain and loss, you know. You know all this, don't you? So the demand in relationship... to have a sense of permanent continuity... in which there is security... leads to attachment... and all the complexity of attachment. If one sees that, perceives the fact of that... You understand? Perceiving it... as you perceive the tree and you don't, unless you are blind... you don't go against it, knock yourself. So if you see this fact that the demand in relationship... for permanency and security which inevitably leads to a great deal... of conflict and attachment, fear and so on... then that very perception burns away... the demand for security. You understand? Is this clear, this question? That... at the moment when we think in terms of time... a sense of continuity... then intensity, clarity... and the feeling of wholeness disappears. I wonder if you captured all this? 所以一个人问究竟是否存在着安全 关系中的安全？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 我们都想希望如此。 我们觉得这种安全是绝对必要的，但它真的存在么？ 请问问你们自己。 安全意味着永恒 生命中有什么是永恒的么？ 死亡总会来临，但让我们此刻先把死亡放在一边。 生命中有什么是永恒的吗？ 我们希望事物是永恒的。 很明显，宗教人士会说上帝是永恒的。 这是一个美妙的发明，但它没什么意义。 我们寻求关系中的安全与永恒。 正是这个观念 请认真听一下 这个希望安全与永恒的观念本身 就是依赖。 对不对？ 所以才有了对他人的深深依赖。 依赖可能存在一个月，一个星期，或者50年。 在这种依赖的情况下 也就有了嫉妒 怀疑，恐惧，拥有和失去的种种冲突，你知道的。 你们明白这些，不是吗？ 所以希望在关系中 有永远持续下去的感觉 其中有着安全 这也就造成了依赖 以及所有依赖的种种体现。 如果一个人看到这一点，察觉到这个事实... 你们明白吗？ 察觉它 就像你看到一棵树，除非你失明 否则你不会去撞它，不会撞到自己。 所以如果你看到这个事实，即希望关系能够永恒 希望关系安全，这会不可避免的导致大量... 冲突以及依赖、恐惧等等 那么这种觉察本身便能祛除 对于安全的渴望。 你们明白吗？ 这个问题清楚了么？ 然后 只要我们一按照时间去思考 一种持续的感觉 那么热情，清澈 以及完整的感觉就会消失殆尽。 我不知道你们都明白了这些没有？
31:50 You have listened to this, is it all nonsense? Do you say, what the devil are you talking about? Or is it sanity, reason, logical... and if you... if I may most respectfully ask... if you see this very clearly... the fact that we do demand in our life, in our daily living... psychologically a sense of continuity... a sense of security... it must inevitably bring conflict. Right? Do we see this, perceive this fact? And we are saying if we perceive the truth of this... that very perception burns away... the demand for security and permanency. Therefore then what is our relationship with each other? You understand? You understand my question? Suppose the speaker or you have not this sense of security... and permanency, that doesn't mean anything... suppose, then what is relationship? You understand? What is my wife and my husband... or girlfriend, or boyfriend, whatever it is? Do please ask this, think it out, let's work it out. What is one's relationship with another, intimate, or otherwise? Is there just, what, a gap? Or when there is no permanency... demand for permanency and security... with all its complexity... is it possible a new awakening... a new sense of what is love? Do you understand my question? Permanency and attachment, with all its pain and pleasure... and anxiety, and fear, is not love. And in the absence of that... entirely, deeply, profoundly... the other is like a flower that's blooming. Right? Is this possible? Is this possible when you hear all this... is it possible in your daily life? Love is not thought... desire, sensation... love has totally a different quality. And that is totally absent when the other... ..security and all the rest of that, is the demand of every human being. 你们听到了以上这些，它们是否都是胡话？ 你是否会说，你究竟在说什么啊？ 又或者这是清醒的、理性的、逻辑的 你是否 如果我可以最为恭敬地问 你是否看清楚 这个事实，就是我们确实想要在我们的生命中、日常生活中 拥有一种心理上的延续感 安全感 这必然会带来冲突... 对不对？ 我们认识到这点了么？观察到这个事实了么？ 我们说，如果我们观察到这个事实 那么这种察觉本身就能去除 想要安全和永恒的欲望。 那么，我们相互间的关系是什么？ 你明白吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 假设我或者你没有这种安全的感觉... 永久的感觉，那没有任何意义 假设如此，那么关系是什么？你明白吗？ 我的妻子、我的丈夫 我的女友或者男友，他们是什么？ 请务必问下自己，想明白，让我们解决它。 和另一个人，不管亲密或者正相反，这关系是什么？ 是不是只是，那什么，一个鸿沟？ 或者当没有了永恒 想要永恒以及安全的欲望 以及所有这些复杂的事情 能否出现一种新的觉醒 一种对爱是什么的全新感觉？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 永恒和依赖，以及所有痛苦和欢愉 还有焦虑、恐惧，这都不是爱。 但这些消失后 完全地、深刻地、彻底地消失后 那另一个就会像鲜花一样绽放了。 是不是？ 这可能么？ 这是否可能，当你听到所有这些 这在你的日常生活中是否可能？ 爱不是思想 渴望、感官享受 爱拥有完全不同的品质。 爱会完全消失，如果它之外的另一个 安全以及所有其他，成为了每个人的欲望。
36:26 2nd QUESTION: What is judgement? How is one to determine... the line dividing opinion... and the perception of fact? 第二个问题：什么是判断？ 人怎样确定 如何划分对事实的看法 和对事实的觉察，这两者之间的界限？
36:41 What is judgement? How is one to determine the line dividing opinion... and the perception of fact? 什么是判断？ 人怎样确定划分观点 和觉察事实之间的界限？
36:52 It's a good question. What is fact, and what is opinion? And where is the dividing line between the two? Why do we have opinions? The meaning of that word, 'opinion', means judgement, evaluation... preconceived concepts, you know, the whole... assertive dogmatic opinions that each one has. Why do we carry so many opinions? Please enquire into this. Why do we have opinions at all? We have opinions about everything. And apparently they are so strong... and we think that is freedom... to have a thousand opinions about everything. That gives you a sense of freedom... at least you think one is free, independence. It's my opinion, I am right. So we have a thousand opinions. 这是一个很好的问题。 什么是事实，什么是观点？ 两者的分界线在哪里？ 为什么我们有着种种看法？ “观点”这个词，意味着判断、评判 事先形成的概念，你知道，所有的 武断的、教条的观点，每个人都有。 我们为什么背负如此多的观点？ 请深深思考这个问题。 我们究竟为何有这些看法？ 我们对每件事都有看法。 显然，这些观点如此强烈 我们认为这是种自由 自由地去对每件事物拥有无数种看法。 这给你一种自由的感觉 至少，你认为你是自由的、独立的。 这是我的看法，我是对的。 所以我们有许多种观点。
38:32 And what are facts? What is fact? Fact is that which has happened. Right? That which has happened. An incident or an accident is a fact... which took place yesterday. And fact is also what is happening now. Right? What is happening now... You and I are sitting here having a conversation... a dialogue, or a question and answer and so on, that's a fact. What is not a fact is what may happen tomorrow. Right? I wonder if we are coming together in this? What may happen when you leave this place and go off... Something might happen. So fact is that which has happened... that which is happening... and fact is not what will happen. That's clear. What will happen is decided... by what is happening now. Right? I wonder if you see this. The future is in the present. Right? The future, what you are now... is the future. Right? Modified, but basically what you are now. So the future is in the present. Right? And the past is also in the present. Right? So the present contains all time. Please don't play with this as a theory, it is meaningless. It becomes a slogan if you repeat that... at least it loses its meaning. But if you see that the past... has a continuity in the present... Right? and the future is the past... modified in the present... the past modified through the present... so the present, the now, contains all time. Right? And if you don't change now... you will be exactly the same tomorrow, slightly modified. So the future is in the present. This is really quite important to understand because... what is action? I mustn't go into that, it's too complicated. 但事实是什么呢？事实如何？ 事实是确已发生的。对不对？ 已经发生的事实。 一个意外或事故是 昨天发生的事实。 事实也是现在发生着的。对不对？ 现在发生着什么... 你和我坐在这里一起对话 谈论、或者提问、回答等等，这是个事实。 那么什么不是事实呢，是那些明天可能发生的事。 对不对？ 我想知道我们是否都明白这点了？ 当你离开这个地方的时候可能会发生什么？ 一些事可能会发生。 所以事实是那些已经发生的 和那些正在发生的 而事实不是将要发生的事情。 这样就清楚了。 将要发生的事情取决于 此刻发生着的事情。对不对？ 我想知道你们是否看到了这点。 未来就在现在。 对不对？ 未来，你现在是什么 将来就是什么。 对不对？可能会有所改变，但基本上就是你现在的样子。 所以未来就在此刻。 对不对？ 过去也在此刻。 对不对？ 所以此刻包含着所有时间。 请不要把这个当作理论，这毫无意义。 如果你仅仅是重复它，它也就变成了口号 至少它失去了本来的意义。 但是如果你看到过去 在此刻持续着... 对不对？ 并且未来就是过去 在此刻经过修改 过去经过现在的修改 所以现在，此刻包含着所有时间。 对不对？ 如果你现在不改变 你明天也将一模一样，只有微小的改变。 所以未来就包含在现在。 理解这一点，非常重要，因为 什么是行动？ 我不能讨论这个，这太复杂了。
42:12 So why do human beings cling to opinions and not facts? You can conclude from a fact an opinion. Right? A fact can be made into an opinion... but the opinion is not the fact. I may have an accident in a car... and you come along and see it... and have umpteen opinions about it... but the fact is I have an accident. So why do we have opinions at all... about government, about religion... about this, about that, about literature, about poems, you follow? Why? Is it a kind of game? Is it a kind of wastage of energy? Is it another form of chattering? Which is all a waste of time, waste of energy. Whereas if you stick to facts, which is, what has happened... what is happening, that's only facts. I am looking at the tree. That's a fact. Why do I have to have an opinion about that? If I am a lumber merchant, thank god, I am not... and I say that's a valuable tree, let's cut it down... that's a different matter. But to have constant opinions about everything... seems to one such a stupid waste of energy and time... you know, it is so useless. 那么人类为什么紧紧抱持着观点而不是事实本身？ 你可以从事实推断出一个观点。 对不对？ 一个事实可以变为一个观念 但观念不是事实。 我可能出了场车祸 你过来看到这个事实 产生了很多相关看法 但事实是我出了场车祸。 所以我们究竟为何会产生看法 关于政府，关于宗教 关于这个，关于那个，关于文学、诗歌，你明白吗？ 为什么？这是场游戏么？ 是不是一种能量的浪费？ 还是另一种形式的喋喋不休？ 这都是一种时间、能量的浪费。 然而如果你紧跟事实，也就是那些已经发生的 正在发生的，这些仅有的事实。 我正观察着这棵树。这是事实。 为什么我要对此产生看法？ 如果我是个木材商人，感谢上帝，我不是 我会说这棵树值钱，我们砍掉它吧 这就是另一回事了。 但对每件事物都不断抱有看法 看起来是件愚蠢的浪费时间、精力的事 你知道，它是多么没有意义。
44:33 And judgement, the question is: what is judgement? A judge passes a sentence... on somebody, criminal, or some innocent man. There was a judge once... whom the speaker happened to know. He was high up in law and became a judge. And one morning after many years of judgement, he said... 'What am I judging? What is truth? I am passing a judgement about everything... according to precedence and so on, what is truth? Unless I find that out judgement has no meaning.' So as was customary in India in those days... about fifty-eight years ago... he called his family and said... 'I am going to withdraw from the world... go off into the forest, into some distant village... meditate and find out.' We are telling you the facts of it, not opinions about it. 回到判断，问题是：什么是判断？ 一个法官做出一个审判 对于某人，有罪或者无辜的人。 曾经有一个法官 讲话者碰巧认识他。 他精于法律，成为了一个法官。 在从事了多年的判决工作后，有一天早上，他说 “我在裁决什么？什么是真相？ 我对每件事都给出判决 根据之前的判例等等，可什么是真相？ 除非我找到真相否则判决没有任何意义。” 按照印度那时的传统 大概在58年之前 他召集了他的家人说... “我打算退出社会 去森林之中，去遥远的村子中 沉思并寻找答案。” 我们正在告诉你有关这件事的事实而非对它的看法。
46:13 After twenty years or forty years - I have forgotten the exact time... somebody brought him to listen to one of the talks... that K was giving... and he came to see the speaker afterwards, and he said... 'You know, what I have been doing all these forty years? I started out to find truth... meditated, did all kinds of things... and I see now that I have been mesmerising myself. I have been living an illusion.' Right? You understand all this? For an old man... to acknowledge such a statement and say... 'That's a fact', that needs a great deal of perception. 20年或者40年之后-我已经忘了确切的时间 有人带他去听了一次讲话 K的讲话 他之后去见了讲话者，然后他说 “你知道么，我这四十年都做了什么？ 我本想找到真相 沉思，做所有类似的事情 然后我发现原来我是在催眠自己。 我生活在幻想之中。” 对不对？你们明白这些么？ 对于一个老人 能承认这番话，并说 “这就是事实”，这需要大量的觉察。
47:12 So, what is judgement, what is justice? Is there justice in the world? Please ask this question of yourself. Is there justice in the world? You are born in a good family... money, education... prosperity, success... and the other lives in a small ghetto... no future except poverty, constant struggle. Right? Where is justice in that? The Indians have a very good explanation, the Hindus... which is karma. You understand? Don't - please, that word 'karma' means to act. Not all these things given to it. To act rightly, now. Because if you act rightly now, the future is right. So, or if you act mischievously now... you pay for it next day or next life. 所以，什么是判断，什么是公正？ 世界上有公正存在么？ 请问你自己这个问题。 这世上有公正存在么？ 你在一个良好的家庭出生 金钱、教育 繁荣、成功 而其他人生活在狭小的贫民窟 没有未来，只有贫穷，不断的挣扎。对不对？ 这其中的公正在哪儿？ 在印度有一个很好的解释，印度人 称其为业。 你明白吗？ 请不要这样，“业”这个词意味着行动。 而不是赋予它的那些意思。 现在，就正确地行动。 因为如果你现在做正确的事，未来就会正确。 所以，相反你现在做有害的事情 你会在第二天或者来世付出代价。
48:54 Now, is there justice in the world? A crook can employ a clever lawyer... and get away with it. This is happening everyday. You are clever, I am not. You are beautiful, I am not. You are extraordinarily alive, I am not. These are facts. So, where is there justice? There is so-called legal justice... which is totally different from actual justice. Justice can only be found... where there is freedom and compassion. Without that freedom and compassion... which in its movement is intelligence... there is justice, otherwise there is no justice in the world. This is, please, not an opinion, not a theory... but when you have this feeling of great compassion... which is quite a deep question... then there is in that compassion, there is justice. 那，世界上有公正么？ 一个骗子可以雇一位聪明的律师 得以逃脱罪名。 这样的事每天都在发生。 你很聪明，而我不是。 你很漂亮，而我不是。 你极其富有活力，而我不是。 这就是事实。 那么，公平在哪里？ 存在着所谓法律的公正 这和真实的公正完全不是一回事。 只有有了自由和慈悲 才能找到公正。 若没有那自由和慈悲 自由和慈悲的运作中就有智慧 那里有公平，否则世界上就没有公平。 请注意，这不是一个观念，不是一个理论 而是当你拥有如此巨大的慈悲之心时 这是一个相当深奥的问题 然后在那慈悲之中，就有了公正。
50:42 3rd QUESTION: There are many people who have considerable difficulty... with the fact of homosexuality. Teachers for centuries have avoided this enquiry. Could you, please, even briefly, put some light on this question? I have travelled two thousand miles to ask this question. 第三个问题：有很多人遇到相当大的困难 来面对同性恋的事实。 导师们几个世纪以来都在逃避这个问题。 那么，请你能否至少简单地，对于这个问题给出一些启示？ 我旅行了两千多英里来问这个问题。
51:10 There are many people who have considerable difficulties... with the fact of homosexuality. Teachers for centuries have avoided this question. Could you please, even briefly, put some... answer this question? I have travelled two thousand years... miles (laughter)... to ask this question? Sorry, quite right. I have travelled two thousand years! This has been a question... for thousands and thousands and thousands of years. It isn't something new. We are not taking sides in this matter. We don't condemn it or approve it or disapprove it. These are facts. Right? As heterosexuality is a fact. Homosexuality exists in the world... in different parts of the world... very common... in other parts of the world it is practically unknown. So how do you answer this question? What is the question? Why do we make it into such an enormous problem? Apparently we don't make... heterosexuality a problem at all... but we make this into a problem, why? It is a fact. So should we enquire into this question... into heterosexuality and homosexuality differently? Not condemn one or the other... or approve one and deny the other... but enquire why sexuality, both... has become so colossally important. Right? Why? You answer this question. On television, in magazines... every bestseller... has this element in it... in detail... every day. You are following? I don't have to tell you all this. Everyday it is emphasised... sexuality - I am not talking about homo- or heterosexuality... general sexuality. Why have human beings given such great importance to this? And if it is not important you feel there is something wrong with you... that you are neurotic, that you have to fulfil... you know, dozens and dozens of explanations by the psychologists... by the experts, by the sexual analysts. Why? Is it pleasure? Remembrance in the pictures of sexuality? You understand? Why has man given throughout the ages... such extraordinary importance to this? If you are deprived of it you feel something terrible has happened. And you can voluntarily say, I won't have any... I will become a celibate, and join a monastery... or not join a monastery, or remain a celibate... with all the problems of celibacy. Right? 有很多人遇到相当大的困难 来面对同性恋的事实。 导师们几个世纪以来都在逃避这个问题。 那么，请你能否至少简单地，对于这个问题给出一些启示？ 我旅行了两千多年...英里（笑声） 来问这个问题？ 抱歉，一点没错。 我旅行了两千年！ 这已经是一个问题 存在了一个千年又一个千年。 它不是什么新鲜事。 我们不是在讨论这件事的对错。 我们不责备它、肯定它或否定它。 这些是事实，对不对？ 就好像异性恋是事实一样。 同性恋存在于世上 在世界的不同地区 这很寻常 而在世界的另外一些地区这几乎完全不为人知。 所以你要怎么回答这个问题？这个问题是什么？ 我们为什么使它成为了一个巨大的问题？ 很显然，我们没有令 异性恋成为一个问题 但我们令同性恋成为了问题，为什么？ 这是一个事实。 我们应该探询这个问题 以不同的方式来探讨异性恋和同性恋吗？ 不谴责其中的任何一个 不赞成一个而否定另一个 而是探讨为什么这两种性特征 变得如此重要。 对不对？ 为什么？你们回答这个问题。 电视上，杂志上 所有畅销书 都有性的成分 细节的描述 每天都有。 你们跟上了么？我没必要告诉你们这些。 每天都强调着 性行为—— 我不是在讨论异性恋或者同性恋 而是广义的性行为。 为什么人类对此给予了巨大重视？ 如果这并不重要，你就觉得自己好像出了问题一样 你觉得自己神经质，觉得你需要满足 你知道，心理学家给出了很多很多的解释 专家和性分析学家也做了很多解释。 为什么？这是不是欢愉？ 性爱场面的回忆？ 你明白吗？ 为什么人类世世代代... 给它赋予了极大的重要性？ 如果你被剥夺了性，你会觉得有可怕的事情发生了。 你可以自愿地说，我不要性 我要成为独身者，去加入一个修道院 或者不去加入修道院，而保持着独身 带着所有独身的问题。对不对？
56:25 So what is the question? Why has this thing... been given such a place in life? It is part of life. Right? Part of walking, seeing, running... laughing, tears - it is part of life. But why has this one thing taken importance? And it is being encouraged very carefully. Right? By the entertaining industry. Please go into all this. And the psychologists have also encouraged this: fulfil. And some mothers feel there is something wrong... with their daughter or son who doesn't have a boy- or girlfriend... after the age of twelve, thirteen. This is all what is happening in the world... especially in this country... In the traditional countries like India, and other countries... there still... they say, please wait, don't indulge... wait until you are twenty or twenty two, or whatever it is. 那么问题是什么呢？ 为什么这件事 在生活中被赋予了如此地位？ 它是生活的一部分。对不对？ 走路、观察、跑步 欢笑、泪水——这都是生活的一部分。 但为什么单单性如此重要？ 并且这件事被十分小心地鼓励着。 对不对？ 被娱乐产业。 请认真思考这个问题。 并且所有的心理学家也都如此鼓励：去满足性。 有些母亲觉得一些事不对头 譬如她们的女儿或儿子没有男女朋友 在他们十二、三岁之后。 这都是发生在世上的事情 尤其在这个国家... 在传统的国家譬如印度或其他国家 人们仍会 说，请等等，不要纵欲 等到你20岁或22岁，不管究竟几岁。
58:18 So seeing all this... what does one learn from all this? Learn, not moral... not morality, not celibacy and so on... but what does one learn from all this? Come on, sirs! Religions throughout the world, the ancient... I won't call them the very ancient... the Hindus, the Buddhists, Christianity... have always said, be a celibate... if you want to follow God be a celibate. Why? And they take vows of celibacy... join monasteries, become a monk... a wandering monk, as they do in India... and go through tortures with this. Right? They have taken a vow, they must stick to it. I don't know why they take a vow first... but once you have taken a vow... you have to follow that... which you have accepted. But psychologically, inwardly, the glands... everything is functioning, and you have a terrible time. The speaker has talked to many, many of them. They go through hell. Religion has done that. You know all this, don't you? 那么看到这些 人们从中学到了什么？ 不是学到道德 不是美德、不是独身主义等等 而是人们从中懂得了什么？ 想一想，先生们！ 全世界的宗教，古老的 我不想称它们非常古老 印度教徒，佛教徒，基督教徒 都总是讲，做一个独身者 如果你想追随上帝，那么做一个独身者。 为什么？ 于是他们发誓要独身 加入修道院，成为一个修道士 一个游方僧人，就像在印度那样 并承受着痛苦的折磨。 对不对？ 他们发了誓，他们得遵守誓言。 我不明白他们为什么要先发誓 但你一旦发过誓 你就要遵守誓言 这个你已经接受的誓言。 但从心理上看，从内心上看，各个器官 还是照常工作，所以你就有了痛苦。 我和很多很多这样的人交谈过。 他们经历了地狱般的生活。 这都是宗教造成的。 你们都知道这些，是不是？
1:00:42 And one asks... why has man... said to himself: to achieve the most sublime... you must be a celibate? Do you understand? That is, you must torture yourself... go through agonies... and then you will be nearer god. It seems so childish, the whole thing. Sorry! I have met many, many sannyasis, in India, monks. I won't go into the details of it... they have tortured themselves in every way. Because the popular opinion is that... to reach god, to reach the highest... you must live a life of absolute abstinence. Which means... human beings have never understood what is austerity. May we go into that? You are not bored with all this? I don't mind if you are bored. Probably you don't want to go into all this... it may disturb you very much. Please don't be disturbed because we are dealing with facts. 所以有人问 为什么人类 对自己说：想要达到至高无上的境界 你就必须独身？ 你们明白吗？ 也就是，你必须折磨你自己 经历诸多痛苦 你才会更接近上帝。 这看起来很幼稚，所有这些。抱歉！ 我见过太多太多遁世者，在印度，僧侣。 我不想描述相关细节 他们以各种方式折磨着自己。 因为主流观念认为 想要触到上帝，触及至高无上 你就必须过一种绝对禁欲的生活。 这意味着 人类从未明白什么是苦行。 我们要不要讨论这个问题？你们对这些不感到无聊吧？ 我不介意你们感到无聊。 可能你们不想讨论这个问题 这可能会令你十分不适。 请不要觉得这是个困扰，因为我们在面对事实。
1:02:53 What is austerity? You know, the root meaning of that word... as we explained the other day... to be austere means to have, in Greek... a dry mouth... not from drinks... but a dry mouth, which is to be harsh... to be sharp... to be dry. And so gradually the human being... has this idea it must be austere... and has made himself into ashes. You understand? When you are forcing yourself day after day... month after month, year after year... driving yourself, you end up... as a dry human being. And if you indulge also in the other direction... you have the same problem. 什么是苦行？ 你知道，这个词的根本意思 就如我们那天解释的一样 在希腊语中，苦行意味着 口干舌燥 不是不喝水 而是有一张口渴的嘴，那意味着变得粗糙 尖锐 干燥。 所以人们逐渐地 有了必须要苦行的想法 于是让自己化为了灰烬。 你们明白吗？ 当你一天天强迫自己 月复一月，年复一年 驱使自己，你最终变成了 成为了一个干枯的人。 如果你也在另一个方向放纵 你也会面临同样的问题。
1:04:22 So can one live a life... without conflict? You understand? Neither extremes... which imply conflict... and the sensory demands... and the suppression of sensory demands. Can one live without a single battle... effort, struggle between the two? You understand my question? That requires a great deal of enquiry... into the whole problem of desire... will, wish... and the biological urges. Do you understand? Do you want to go on with this? 于是一个人能否过一种生活 没有冲突的生活？ 你们明白吗？ 不要走任何一种极端 那意味着冲突 感官欲望 和压抑感官欲望之间的冲突。 人能不能活着而没有在两者之间的斗争 没有努力、矛盾的挣扎？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 我们需要深入地去质疑 整个问题，有关欲望 意志、愿望 以及生理上的冲动。 你们明白吗？ 你们想要讨论这个问题吗？
1:05:50 There is a very good question at the end - I just saw it! How is one to live on this earth... please listen to it... how is one to live on this earth... without harm or destruction to its beauty... without bringing suffering and death to others? How is one to live on this earth... without harm or destruction to its beauty... to the beauty of the earth... without bringing suffering and death to others? 这真是一个很好的收尾问题——我正好看到了它！ 一个人怎样在地球上生活 请听一听 一个人怎样在地球上生活 没有对地球的美的伤害和破坏 不给他人带来痛苦和死亡？ 一个人怎样在地球上生活 没有对地球的美的伤害和破坏 对世上的美好事物 没有给他人带来痛苦或死亡？
1:06:36 But we must finish our question which... we were talking about previously. What time is it, sir? Could we bear another quarter of an hour? Are you working the same as the speaker is working... or are you just listening? Is your brain as active, working... enquiring, doubting... intense to find out... a way of living something totally different? 但我们必须先结束我们的问题 我们之前所讨论的问题。 几点了，先生？ 我们能否再忍受一刻钟？ 你现在正和我一起工作吗 还是你仅仅是在听？ 你的大脑是在活跃地运转、工作 询问、质疑 强烈地想找出 一种生活方式，完全不同的方式吗？
1:07:34 We were saying, to live a life without conflict... requires an investigation into the whole question of desire... which is a very, very complex problem. Do you really want to go into all that? No, I am not asking out of encouragement... I am just asking. It is a very serious thing that we are undertaking. It is no good just merely listening and repeating... that has no meaning at all. But seeing what the facts are in this world... what is actually taking place in the world... not only in this country but in every country... in so-called every culture. And conflict in man is increasing more and more and more... not less and less. Man means woman and man... so please don't get excited about it... why don't I talk about women. Unless one understands very deeply the movement of desire... not the description of it... not the explanation of it... but to enquire why desire becomes so extraordinarily important... desire to become successful, desire to have money... desire for sex, for excitement, for amusement... you follow?.. the tremendous urge and the speed of it... and the demand for its fulfilment. Again religions have said, you must suppress desire... which means another battle, another conflict, another torture. You know, religion has played havoc with human beings. And they are still doing it... not only in the Christian world... but in the whole world... the Islamic world, look what they are doing in Iran and Iraq. Don't talk about it! 我们说的是，过一种没有冲突的生活 需要对整个有关欲望的问题深入研究 这是个非常非常复杂的问题。 你们真的想探究这些？ 不，我不是出于鼓励才这么问的 我只是在问。 我们正在讨论一件非常严肃的事情。 如果仅仅是听从并重复，那将没有任何益处 没有任何意义。 但看到存在于世界的事实是什么 世上真正发生了什么 不仅仅在这个国家而是在每个国家 在每种所谓的文化之中。 人类的冲突变得越来越多 而不是越来越少。 人意味着男人和女人 所以对此不要感到惊讶 为何我没有提及女人。 除非一个人深深地明白欲望的运作 而不是欲望的描述 也不是对欲望的解释 而是去探询欲望为什么变得如此超乎寻常的重要 希望成功的欲望，拥有金钱的欲望 性的欲望，兴奋、娱乐的欲望 你们跟上了吗？ 欲望巨大的驱动力以及它运转的速度 还有想要实现欲望本身的愿望。 再回到宗教，它们会说，你必须压制欲望 这也就意味着另一种争斗,另一种冲突,另一种折磨的产生. 你知道,宗教曾给人类带来巨大的破坏。 而且它也依然如此 不仅仅在基督教的世界 而是在整个世界 在伊斯兰世界，看看宗教在伊朗和伊拉克之间做了什么。 不要谈论那些了！
1:10:52 So what is desire? Please understand we are not trying to suppress it... or encourage it, but it is a fact. The fact is that we are driven by desire. And to thwart it is pain. Right? A sense of not being able to fulfil. So at any cost, at any price we want the fulfilment of desire. You may say, 'Desire for god... desire for understanding' - it is still desire. Gosh, must I go into all this? 那么什么是欲望？ 请一定要清楚我们不是想要压制它 或者鼓励它，而是它是一个事实。 事实就是我们被欲望驱使。 欲望受阻就会痛苦。 对不对？ 一种不能满足的感觉。 所以不论以任何代价，我们都要满足欲望。 你可能会说，“对于上帝的渴求 想要了解的欲望”——这还是欲望。 天，我必须探究这一切么？
1:11:56 When you look at a tree... and the beauty of the tree... the light upon the leaf... and the mountains beyond it, the valleys... the shades and the dappled light... and see that enormous beauty of the earth... that is sensation. Right? I won't go into the question, is beauty a sensation... I am not going into that, that's another problem. No, not a problem, that is quite another thing... very interesting if you go into it: is beauty a sensation? When you see all that, the earth and its beauty... it is a sensation. Right? Seeing with the optical eyes, with the eyes... and the seeing, the very seeing arouses the sensations. Right? Seeing a beautiful woman or a man... arouses various kinds of sensations. Then that sensation is correct, isn't it? Normal, healthy, natural... unless one is paralysed, blind, and deaf, and dumb. That is, when one is sensitive... one is acutely aware of all this. And you see this. There is perception of all this. Then what takes place? You are looking at those hills. The seeing of those hills... arouses certain sensations. Then what is the next step to that? Enquire, please, look at it. Doesn't then thought come in and say... what a beautiful thing that is? Right? Thought then creates an image... out of that sensation. Right? I am not saying anything that is not factual... this is not supposition or fictitious. Sensation - contact, sensation... then thought makes an image of that sensation. Right? Are you following? When thought makes an image out of that sensation... then desire is born. Sensation is not desire. Sensation is sensation. But when thought comes and says, yes, what a lovely thing that is... what a lovely dress that is... nice shirt - being a man, nice shirt... or a woman says, nice dress. Goes inside, touches it, feels it... puts it on, and then thought says... how beautiful I look. That's a nice shirt on me. Then desire is born. You understand this? This is a fact. It is not something theoretical, it is a fact. 当你看着一棵树 观看树的美 照在树叶上的阳光 以及远处的山脉、峡谷 光的阴影与斑驳 看到这世上巨大的美 这叫做感受。 对不对？ 我不想讨论这个问题，美是不是感官感受... 我不想谈它，这是另一个问题。 不，不是一个问题，它是另一件事情 如果你深入探究，它将一件非常有趣的事情：美是感官感受吗？ 当你观察到这些，世界及它的美 这是感受。 对不对？ 用光学的视觉去看，用眼睛去看 这种看到，这种观察本身便唤起了感受。 对不对？ 看到一个漂亮的女人或男人 唤起了很多种感受。 这种感受是正确的，不是么？正常的、健康的、自然的 除非一个人瘫痪了，失明、失聪、哑掉。 也就是，当一个人敏感的时候 他就能精确地觉察到这些。 你看到了这些。 有了对所有这些的觉察。 然后什么发生了？ 你看着这些山脉。 这些山脉的景象 唤起了某种感受。 这之后下一步是什么？ 问问看，真的，认真想。 思想不就产生出来了么，并说 这是种多么美好的事物？ 对不对？ 思想建立了一种印象 从那感受中产生了意象。 对不对？ 我没有谈论任何不真实的事情 这不是推测的或者虚构的。 感受-联系，感知 然后思想就制造了那感受的映像。 对不对？你们跟上了么？ 当思想从原本的感知制造出一个映像时 欲望就产生了。 感受不是欲望。 感知就是感知。 但思想产生并说，啊，这是多么美好的事物 多么可爱的衣裙 漂亮的衬衫——作为一个男人，漂亮的衬衫 或者一个女人说，漂亮的衣裙。 走进去，触摸它，感觉它 穿在身上，然后思想说 我多么漂亮。 我穿着一件漂亮的衬衫。 然后欲望产生了。你们明白这点么？ 这就是事实。 这不是什么理论的东西，这就是事实。
1:16:47 Now the question is, if you go into it much deeper... sensation... seeing a beautiful painting... beautifully framed and beautifully lit, marvellous... that is a sensation. Then the thought says, I wish I had that in my room. Then when the thought... assumes the authority over sensation desire is born. Now the question is... can sensation and thought be kept apart? Go into this. Not through will, through compulsion, effort and all that... we are asking a very serious and very simple question. Sensation is natural, thought is also somewhat natural... with its image. That's what happens. Now can there be a gap, an interval, a hiatus... so that sensation and thought are separate? You understand? See what is implied in it. It requires tremendous attention... great watchfulness. Seeing, sensation. The speaker has seen some most beautiful things in the world... beautiful cars... beautiful people... please I am not using that in the common sense... beautiful people. Never mind. So it is natural to look at this world, this enormous beauty... the destruction, what human beings are doing to the earth... and see some of the most beautiful gardens in the world... houses, palaces, and so on... we have lived in them and all that. And never to be identified with any of it. Oh, you don't know all this. Never asked, 'I wish I had it'. You understand? That requires great perception, watchfulness and clarity. 现在的问题是，如果你深入进去 感受 看到一幅美丽的油画 华丽的相框以及漂亮的光照着，棒极了 这是感受。 然后思想说，我希望它挂在我的屋里。 于是当思想 接管了起超越感知的权力，欲望就产生了。 现在的问题是 感受和思想能否分离？ 认真想想。 不是通过意志、强迫、努力和其他什么 我们正在问一个非常严肃非常简单的问题。 感受是自然的，思想也可以说是自然的 伴随着意象。 这就是发生的一切。 那么是否有一道鸿沟，或者间隔、空隙 以至于感受和思想是分离的？ 你们明白吗？ 想想这意味着什么。 这需要极大的注意力 巨大的警觉。 看见，感知。 讲话者已经见过世界上一些最美的东西 美丽的汽车 美丽的人们 请注意我不是在通常的意义上说这些 美丽的人们。 没关系。 观看这个世界是很自然的事，观看非比寻常的美丽 观看人类正给地球造成的破坏 观看世上最漂亮的那些花园 房屋、宫殿等等 我们生活在其中，所有这些。 永远也不要和它们中任何一件事物认同在一起。 噢，你不知道这些。 从来不曾要求，“我希望我能拥有它”。你们明白吗？ 这需要很多的觉察、警醒和清澈。
1:20:19 And all that implies a sense... of great inward learning, which is discipline. Learning is discipline, not conformity. Do you understand? 所有这些都意味着 强烈的内心学习，也就是纪律。 学习是纪律，不是顺从。你们明白吗？
1:20:38 4th QUESTION: Last question. How is one to live on this earth... without harm or destruction to its beauty... without bringing suffering and death to others? 第四个问题：最后一个问题。一个人该怎样活在地球上 而不对其美好做任何伤害或破坏 不给别人带来痛苦或死亡？
1:20:51 How is one to live on this earth without harm or destruction... to its beauty, without bringing suffering and death to others? 一个人该怎样活在地球上而不伤害或破坏... 其美好，不给别人带来痛苦或死亡？
1:21:05 Have you ever asked this question? Actually? Not theoretically but actually put that question, face it. Don't run away from it, not explain... it is necessary and all the rest of it... but look at it, confront it. Have you ever asked such a question? Not en masse, make a demonstration... against some politician... who wants to destroy a National Park or this or that. To ask such a question... that means you are burning with it... it is something tremendously real... not just a fanciful question to pass the time of day. To live on this earth... with its extraordinary beauty... and not to destroy it... and to end sorrow... and not kill another... not kill another human being... not kill a living human thing. There are those people in India, a certain sect... their transportation is to walk... they take no trains... no aeroplanes, no carriages, nothing but walk... and they put on a mask not to kill an insect by breathing. You understand? There is a whole group of them. Some of that group came to see the speaker... and they walked eight hundred miles... from April to January... and never taking any transportation except walking. And they won't kill. 你们问过这样的问题吗？ 事实上？ 不是理论上而是真正地思考这个问题，面对它。 不要离开问题本身，不要解释说 这是必要的或者其他什么 而是观察它，面对它。 你们问过这样的问题吗？ 不是一同进行一次示威游行 抵制某位政客 因为他想要破坏一个国家公园或者什么。 问这样一个问题 意味着你们对此有激情 这是一件极为真实的事情 而不是一个幻想出来的新奇问题，为了消磨一天的时间。 要在地球上生活 伴随世界的无限美丽 不要去毁灭它 去终结悲伤 不要杀害他人 不要杀害其他人类 不要杀害一个活着的人。 印度某个宗派的人士 他们的交通方式就是徒步 他们不坐火车 不坐飞机、不坐马车，只靠行走 他们戴着面具以免呼吸时杀害昆虫。 你明白吗？这些人有一大群。 这组织里的一些人来见讲话者 他们走过800英里 从4月到7月 除了行走从不乘坐任何交通工具。 他们不杀生。
1:24:05 And there are those who kill... kill for sport, kill for amusement... kill for profit... the whole meat industry. Right? Destroy the earth, to dump poisonous gas... you know all that is happening in this country... pollute the air, the waters... and pollute each other. This is what we are doing to the earth and to ourselves. 还存在一些人，他们杀生 为了好玩，为了娱乐 为了利益 整个肉品工业就是这样。 对不对？ 毁灭地球，排泄有毒气体 你知道所有这些都在这个国家发生着 污染空气、水资源 污染彼此。 这就是我们正在对地球和我们自己所做的事情。
1:24:54 And the questioner asks... can we live on this earth... with its great beauty... and not bring suffering to others or death. It is a very, very serious question. To live a life without causing suffering to others... or causing death to others... that means not killing a human being... not killing any animal... for sport, for your food. You understand all this? This is the question. 于是提问者问道 我们能否生活于地球上 伴随着它巨大的美 而不为别人带来痛苦和死亡。 这是一个非常非常严肃的问题。 要想生活中不给别人造成痛苦 或者造成死亡 这意味着不杀害人类 不杀害任何动物 为了好玩，为了食物。 你们明白这些么？ 问题就是这个。
1:26:11 There were a certain class of people in India... at a certain time... they never ate meat. They thought killing was wrong. They were called at the time, Brahmins. And the western civilisation has never enquired into... whether killing is right... whether killing any living thing is justified. In itself. The western world has destroyed whole races of people. Right? This country has destroyed the Indians of this country... wiped them out... because they wanted land, and all that. So can we live on this earth without killing, without war? I can answer it, but what value has it to you... because you are killing? I am not advocating vegetarianism. Some author wrote some time ago... a cutting was sent to me... he wrote saying: 'vegetarianism is spreading... like some foul disease in this country.' Even if you kill a cabbage. Right? So where do you draw the line? Do you make a problem of it? Do you understand my question? If you are against war, as certain human beings are, including myself... against war, killing other human beings for whatever reason... then you cannot post a letter. Right? The stamp you buy, the food you get... all that, part of it goes to defence, armament. If you buy petrol - gas in this country - part of that goes... your tax, part of it goes, and so on, so on. So what will you do? If you don't pay taxes you are fined or sent to jail. If you don't buy stamps you can't write letters, you can't travel. Right? Are you following all this? It amuses you? So you drive yourself into a corner. And living in a corner seems rather futile. So what will you do? If you say, I won't travel, I won't write a letter... all this helps to maintain the army, and navy, and armaments... nationalities, you follow, the whole racket of it. Or would you approach it differently? Why do we kill? Religions, especially Christianity, have killed probably... more people on earth... they have tortured people... called them heretics, burnt them. You know all the history of it. The Muslims have done it, the Islamic world has done it... probably the Hindus and the Buddhists are the only people... their religions forbid. 在印度存在这样一群人 在某个时代 他们从不吃肉...。 他们认为杀生是错误的。 他们在那时候被称为婆罗门。 而西方文明从未想过 杀生是否不对 杀害任何一个活着的生命是否公正。 本身是否公正。 西方世界毁灭了很多人类种族。 对不对？ 这个国家毁灭了国内的印第安人 把他们消灭 因为他们需要土地，诸如此类的原因。 所以我们能居住在世上而没有屠杀、没有战争么？ 我可以回答这个问题，但这对你们来说有什么价值吗 因为你们还在杀戮？ 我不是在鼓吹素食主义。 前阵子某个作家写了 一段寄给了我 他写道：“素食主义在传播 就像邪恶的疾病在这个国家传播一样。” 即使你杀害了一个卷心菜。 对不对？ 那么你在哪里画这道线？ 你是否对此产生了问题？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 如果你反对战争，当然某些人会如此，包括我在内 反对战争，不论什么原因去杀害人类 那么你就不能去寄信。对不对？ 你买的邮票，你弄到的食物 所有这些，一部分都去用作防御、军备。 如果你在这个国家买汽油——其中的一部分 成为你的税款，其中一部分成为这些、那些等等。 然后你会怎么做？ 如果不交税，你会被罚款或者抓进监狱。 如果不买邮票，你没法写信，你不能旅行。 对不对？ 你们都跟上这些了么？这令你们发笑了？ 所以你把自己赶往一个角落。 生活在一个角落依然是徒劳的。 那么你将会做什么？ 如果你说，我不旅行，我不写信 所有这些都有助于维持陆军、海军以及军备 民族主义，你知道，所有这些勾当。 或者你会以不同的方式来处理？ 我们为什么杀生？ 宗教，尤其基督教，或许已经杀害了 地球上更多的人类 他们折磨人们 称他们异教徒，焚烧他们。 你们知道所有这些历史。 穆斯林这么做了，伊斯兰世界这么做了 可能印度教徒和佛教徒是仅有的一些人 他们的宗教禁止如此。
1:31:20 How can one live on this earth without killing another... and causing suffering for another? To go into this question very deeply, really... it is a very, very serious question... is there that quality of love that answered this question? If you love another, if you love another human being... are you willing to kill that human being? Would you then kill anything... except you need certain food... vegetables, nuts and so on, milk... but apart from that would you kill anything? Go into all these questions, sir, and live it... for god's sake, don't talk about it. 一个人如何活在世上而不杀害他人 并且不给他人带来痛苦？ 认真地思考这个问题，深刻地真正地 这是个非常非常严肃的问题 是否存在一种爱可以回答这个问题？ 如果你爱别人，如果你爱其他人类 你会愿意去杀害那些人吗？ 你还会杀害任何生命么 除非你确实需要食物 蔬菜、坚果等等，牛奶 但是除此之外你会杀害生灵么？ 思考一下这个问题，先生，把它活出来 看在上帝的份上，不要只是谈论它。
1:32:52 What is dividing the world is ideals... the ideology of one group against another group. This eternal division, apparently an everlasting division... between man, woman, and so on. They have tried to bridge this through logic, through reason... through various institutions and foundations and organisations... and they have not succeeded in any way. This is a fact. Knowledge has not solved this problem either... knowledge in the sense of accumulated experience and so on. And thought has certainly not solved this problem. 是理想主义、意识形态在分裂着世界 一个组织相对于另一个组织的意识形态。 这种永恒的分裂，很明显是一种永远持续的分裂 在男性和女性之间，以及等等。 人们试图通过逻辑、推理在其间搭建桥梁 通过各种机构、基金会、组织 但他们从未成功过。 这就是事实。 知识也没有解决这个问题 经验积累意义上的知识等等。 思想当然也没有解决这个问题。
1:33:50 So there is only one issue out of it... to discover or find out what is love. Love is not desire, love is not possession, love is not selfish... egocentric activity... me first and you second. And apparently that love has no meaning to most people. They may write books about it, but it has no meaning. So is there that quality, that perfume... that fire, that compassion; and compassion has its intelligence... that is supreme intelligence. When there is that intelligence which is born of compassion, love... then all these problems will be solved simply, quietly. But we never pursue the question to the very end. We may pursue it intellectually, verbally... but to do it with your heart, with your mind... with your passion behind it... then the earth will remain beautiful. And then there is a great sense of beauty in oneself. 所以对此只有一件事情 那就是去寻找或发现什么是爱。 爱不是欲望，爱不是占有，爱不是自私 不是自我中心的行为 我首先而你其次。 很明显，这种爱对大多数人来说都没有意义。 人们可能为此写书，但这没有意义。 那么到底有没有那种品质、那种芬芳 那种火焰、那种慈悲； 而慈悲拥有自身的智慧 那是至高无上的智慧。 当有这种智慧时慈悲和爱就产生了 之后所有的问题都会被轻易地、悄悄地解决。 但我们从未把这个问题追问到底。 我们可能智力上、语言上追问它了 但是要用你的心、你的心灵去做到 用其中的热情去做 那么，世界将会继续美好。 而你自己的内在也会有一种巨大的美的感觉。