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OJ84T2 - 欢愉有什么问题？
第二次公共讲话
美国加州，欧亥
1984年5月20日



0:59 If one may remind you again... this is not a lecture. Lectures are meant to convey... or give instructions, information and guidance. So this is not a lecture... but we are going to take a journey together... into an extensive field of the psyche... in the psychological realm... though there have been a great many descriptions... investigations up to a certain point... but in these talks, if one may remind you... we are going together as two friends to take a long journey... into the area of the whole psychological states... if we have time and if we can go to the very end of it... not stop in the middle of something... which you may not like or dislike... one must take the journey to the very end of things. 可以的话，请允许我再次提醒大家 这里进行的并非一场讲座 讲座意味着想要去传达 或者是提供教导、讯息或给予指引。 所以这并非一场讲座 而是，我们将要共同走上一段旅程 一段通往我们广阔心智领域的旅程 在心理学领域当中 尽管已经存在大量的各式描述 以及各种的调查研究，但这些都只是进行到某种程度而已 但是在我们的谈话中，请允许我提醒您大家 我们将要象两个朋友一样，共同完成这段漫长的旅程 进入整个心理状态的领域当中 如果我们能够有时间，并且能够走到这段旅程的终点 而没有在中途因为什么事情而停下来 可能有些人愿意如此，有些人不愿意 我们必需把这段旅程走到它的最终点。
2:51 We were also saying... that thought has done the most extraordinary things in the world... technological world... from the neutron bombs, missiles, the computers... and the whole area of communication... rapid travel and so on. Thought has been responsible for all that. Also great surgery, medicine... and health... if that is possible - and so on. But also thought has brought about great wars... in the last perhaps hundred years... we have had two terrible wars... which is also the result of thought... because thought has divided humanity... geographically and nationally. And also thought has divided humanity... in the world as Christians... Buddhists, Hindus and Moslems. And as we were saying: where there is division... as American and Russian... European, and South Africans, and so on... there must be conflict, there must be war... people are killing by the thousands... killing has been going on... for the last six thousand historical years... practically every year there is a war. And man during all these forty, fifty thousand years... this long duration of evolution... has not stopped killing each other... or destroying nature, more especially now. 我们也必须了解 思想在这个世界中创造了最不同凡响的各种事物 在科技的领域里 思想创造了中子弹，导弹和计算机 还包括通信领域的种种创造 还有快速的旅行成为可能等等。 思想是那一切的缔造者。 思想还创造了卓越的外科手术，医疗 以及健康 如果可能的话，还有其它的种种。 但是，思想也带来了大规模的战争 在过去了的大概百年之间 我们曾经有过两次可怕的战争 它们也是人类思想的结果 因为思想已经将人类分裂开来 在地理的意义上和国家的意义上。 并且思想也将世界上的人类分裂为 基督徒 佛教徒，印度教教徒和伊斯兰教教徒。 并且就象我们曾经在讲的：哪里有分裂 就象分为美国人和俄国人 欧洲人和南非人，等等 哪里就会有冲突，哪里就必然有战争 大批的人被杀害了 这样的杀戮从未停止过 在过去的六千年中它一直继续着 事实上，每一年都有战争。 并且人类在这四万到五万年之间 在这漫长的进化过程当中 从未停止过彼此的杀戮 再或者就是破坏大自然，这一点在如今尤为突出。
5:53 Thought has not created nature... the tiger, the wolf... and the marvellous trees and flowers. But thought has created... division between man and woman. Though biologically they are different... thought in their relationship... has brought about great conflict... misunderstanding, quarrels... disputes, antagonism, hatred. So thought has bred conflict... not only externally, outwardly, in the world... but also inwardly in the whole psychological world... which is far more important to understand than the reorganisation... of outward structure of society. 人类的思想从未创造出大自然 或创造出老虎，创造出狼 以及那些绝美的树木和花朵。 但是，人类的思想创造出了 男人与女人之间的分裂。 虽然生物学角度上他们是不同的 但是思想却在男女的关系之中 带来了巨大的冲突 误解，争吵 抗拒，对立和仇恨。 所以思想创造并且滋养了冲突 不但是外部的，表面的，在我们的外部世界当中 同时也在我们整个内在的心理世界当中制造了冲突 后者要比理解社会的外部结构的重组 来的重要的多。
7:10 Society is what we have made of it. With our greed, with our ambitions, corruption... competition and all the rest of it. So we have made the society which is disintegrating... becoming dangerous as we are, as human beings... are degenerating and becoming dangerous... killing, kidnapping, terrorising. We went into this yesterday... and we said also that thought... thinking has been responsible for the religious divisions... as Christians with all the subdivisions... thought has been responsible for the things... in all the temples, churches and mosques. 社会就是由我们构成的。 它是由我们的贪婪，我们的野心，腐败 竞争和相似的所有一切构成的。 所以我们创造了这个社会，它是支离破碎的 它变得和我们一样的危险，象人类一样 退化着，并且变得危险 杀戮，绑架，恐怖活动。 昨天我们曾经谈到这一点 并且我们也说过思想 思想要为宗教信仰的分裂负责 正如基督教徒们和他们的所有的分支们 是人类的思想造成了这些分裂 我们有着各种各样的寺庙，教堂和清真寺。
8:21 Thought is the result of memory... if we had no memory there would be no thinking. Memory is based on knowledge and experience. There is no complete experience about anything... there is always the more... and where there is more there is measurement... and measurement is never complete, whole. So knowledge is limited... now and always in the future... you can add to it, expand it... but that very expansion is limited... so thought is limited. And being limited... as selfishness, egocentric activity is limited... so thought, whatever it does... must inevitably create conflict... because anything that is limited, any concept... whether religious or ideological... any ideal will always be limited... and therefore it must breed extraordinary conflict... between human beings. 人类的思想是记忆的结果 假如我们没有记忆，就不会存在思想。 记忆是基于知识和经验的。 而人类关于所有事物的经验从来都不是完全的 永远都还有更多的知识和经验 并且只要有更多的存在，就存在着衡量 而衡量，永远不会是完整的和圆满的。 所以知识是局限的 在现在和未来也是如此 你可以添加，可以扩充 但是所有的扩充都是有局限性的 所以思想就是有局限的。 并且这种局限性 譬如自私的行动和自我中心的行动也都是局限的 所以思想，无论它产生了什么样的行动 无可避免的都会制造出冲突 因为任何局限的事物，任何概念 无论是宗教意义上的还是意识形态上的 任何想法总会是局限的 因此也必然会滋生出巨大的冲突 人与人之间的冲突。
10:16 We were talking about that yesterday and... we must go on... taking the journey together as two friends... who are concerned with the way of life... to find out for themselves... without any gurus, authority and all that rubbish... find out for themselves... a way of life which is an art... an art that will bring about in human beings... a great deal of quietude... affection and an art of life. 我们昨天也讨论到这一点，并且 我们必须要继续 作为两个朋友，一起继续这段旅程 每一个人都关注着生命的方式 让我们自己来查明真相 不需要任何的上师，权威和类似的种种垃圾 让我们靠自己来查明真相 发现这样的生活方式，生活是一种艺术 这样的艺术会为人类带来 无限的宁静 充沛的爱和生活的艺术。
11:22 These two friends, you and the speaker... are taking a long extensive journey together. Together. Please bear this in mind all the time. He is not speaking for his own pleasure... because if he does... he can do that in his own room if he wants to... but as two friends... exploring hesitantly... without any bias... sceptically, doubting... questioning, exploring... and observing objectively, without any bias... together... because we are concerned with our own lives. And this enquiry into this psyche... is not selfish activity... does not encourage or expand... self-centred egotistic movement. On the contrary... both religiously and through education... throughout the world... the egocentric activity has been emphasised... Christians believe in souls... separate from the rest of humanity... so do the Hindus with their atman and so on. And this great emphasis on individuality... has brought about great harm... great competition, cruelty. So one must - you and the speaker are going to question all this... whether we are individuals at all... or we share the common humanity of sorrow... fear, pleasure... anxiety, depression... and the fear of the unknown - death. This is the common lot of every human being on this earth. Every human being on this earth has invented their own gods... hoping thereby there could be some kind of security... a way out of fear... praying in their own way... to end their own complexity... their own pain and anxiety... this is shared by all human beings. Not by you as an American or an Italian or Russian or English... or an Indian... but it is shared by every human being on this earth. You may intellectually, my friend, accept the logic of it... but what is logic, reason... is merely superficial... but when actually in one's blood, in one's whole being... feels the truth of this... that our consciousness is shared by all humanity. You may believe in one kind of god... or in one kind of saviour and so on... but that belief, believing... is shared by every human being... to believe in something. So you are humanity. This is a great truth. It is a great something when one actually... in one's heart and in one's blood... and in one's guts realises this... then we would think of the world... totally in a different way. To kill another is to kill oneself... to hate another is to hate oneself and so on. 这两位朋友，你和讲者 正在共同经历一场深广的旅程。 我们正在共同经历，请你一定要将这一点时刻记在心中。 讲者不是为了自己高兴而讲的 如果情况是那样 如果他想那样做，他可以待在自己的房间里做这件事 而是，我们作为朋友 共同以质疑的态度来慢慢探索 心中不存有任何的偏见 我们保持怀疑的态度，不轻易相信 提出问题，深入探索 客观的观察，不带任何的偏见 让我们共同来经历 因为我们都深深关注着我们的生命。 并且这种对心智的问询 并非自私的行动 它并不会怂恿或者扩张 那种以自我为中心的自大行为。 相反的 在全世界范围内 通过宗教和教育 那种以自我为中心的自大行为被不断强调着 基督教教徒相信灵魂 这将他们与其他的人类分隔开了 印度教教徒也做着同样的事情，他们相信的是生命的本源而已，等等。 这种特别强调个体性的做法 已经带来了巨大的伤害 激烈的竞争和残忍。 所以，我们每一个人必须——你和讲者将要就这一切发问 我们究竟是不是一个又一个的个体 或者我们是共有人类共同的悲伤 恐惧，愉悦 忧虑，抑郁 还有对未知的恐惧——死亡。 这是地球上每一个人共同的命运。 地球上的每一个人都发明了他们自己的神 希望可以因此获得某种安全感 一种脱离恐惧的方法 以他们自己的方式祈祷着 祈祷结束他们自己的种种复杂 结束他们自己的痛苦和焦虑 这样的方式是全人类共有的。 不会因为你是美国人，意大利人，俄国人，英国人或者印度人 而有所不同 这是地球上的所有人共有的。 我的朋友，你可能会在知性的层面上接受这样的逻辑 但是这种被称作逻辑和推理的东西 也仅仅是非常肤浅的 但是，实际上，在一个人的血液中，在他的整个存在当中 去感受，就会感受到这样的真理： 我们的意识是整个人类所共有共享的。 你可能信仰某一种神 或者信仰某一种救世主，等等 但是那个信仰，信仰的行为本身 是每一个人类都共有共享的 去信仰某样事物。 所以你就是人类。 这是一个伟大的真理。 这是一件了不起的事情，当一个人能够真正的 在他的心中、血液中 在他的骨子里意识到这一点 那么我们将以全然不同的方式 来思考这个世界。 杀死别人就是杀死自己 恨别人就是恨你自己，等等。
17:17 And, as together - you and the speaker... are taking a journey... we ought to enquire... into what is discipline... and what is parapsychology. Many people are concerned with the parapsychology... the occultism... reading thoughts, and awakening kundalini... you have heard all that kind of stuff, haven't you? Going to India to find out... or to Tibet if you can get there... you can't any more... or go to Japan, find out... all the rest of this stuff. The speaker has been, from childhood, involved in all this. Forgive me for being a little personal... he knows a great deal or something of all that. But all these things are like... a pleasant day or a lovely afternoon... that pass away and they have utterly no importance whatsoever. What is important, most essential... not these mysterious things... which are not mysterious at all... if one is very sensitive... both physically... and has a very, very quiet, silent brain... then all the other things are possible. And what is possible can be understood and transcended. That is to find out that which is timeless... which is beyond measure... is much more important... than to indulge in these childish things. 并且，让我们共同，你和这个讲者 我们在经历着这段旅程 我们应该询问 究竟什么是纪律 以及什么是超心理学。 许多的人正关注着超心理学 神秘主义 读心术和拙火的觉醒 你们都听说过诸如此类的种种，不是吗？ 人们去印度寻道 去西藏寻道，如果你能去得了西藏的话 如果你去不了 就去日本寻道 所有的诸如此类的行为。 讲者自己，从孩提时代，就体验了此类神秘经验的种种。 请原谅我在这里提到这些私人的事情 讲者对那些神秘主义的经验知道很多或者知道一部分。 但是所有那些事情都像是 愉快的一天或者一个宜人的下午 总是会消失掉，所以它们都完全没有任何的重要性。 真正重要的，最本质的 并非那些神秘的事物 因为那些所谓的神秘事物其实一点都不神秘 如果一个人非常的敏感 不但是身体上的敏感 并且拥有一个非常空寂和全然安静的头脑 那么所有的那些事情都将成为可能。 那么成为可能的事情就能被理解和超越。 依此就可以发掘什么才是永恒的 什么才是超越衡量的 这将比耽溺在那些幼稚的事情上 来得更加重要。
20:08 And also we ought to talk over together... what is discipline? Why human beings more and more have no sense of order. Please, this is not a sermon... which becomes a bore. The speaker is not telling you what to do, or what to think... but to observe together... to see things as they are... not as you or the speaker wishes... to see exactly... correctly, directly... things as they are. We live in a very disordered world... chaotic, contradictory, cruel world... and this has been the result of long... forty thousand years of evolution... ..and we have come to this chaotic state. And in observing that, what is order? Is there any order at all? Or must man, human beings... live perpetually in disorder... not only externally but also inwardly? Disorder seems to be our lot... to think clearly, objectively seems almost impossible... because each one of us wants his own particular way... his own fulfilment... his own ambition and so on. 并且我们应该共同来探讨 什么是纪律？ 为什么人类越来越失去了条理性。 请您了解，这并非是布道 布道是非常无聊的事情。 讲者并非要告诉你怎么做，怎么想 而是要和你一起观察 共同看到事物本来的样子 也并非是看到你或者讲者希望看到的事情 我们要实实在在地看 正确地看，直接地看 看到事物本来的样子。 我们生活在一个非常混乱的世界当中 无序的，自相矛盾的，残酷的世界 这就是漫长的四万年的 进化的结果 并且我们继承了这样混乱的状态。 那么观察到这样的状况后，秩序又是什么呢？ 究竟有没有秩序这种东西呢？ 还是说，整个人类 必须生活在永恒的混乱当中 这种混乱不但是外部的混乱，也同时是内在的混乱？ 混乱看起来似乎是我们的命运 清晰而且客观的思考看起来几乎是不可能的 因为我们每一个人都想要他自己独特的方式 他自己的满足 他自己的野心，等等。
22:47 So what is order? And what is the relationship of that to discipline? The word 'discipline' etymologically means... 'a disciple, who learns'... it comes from the word 'disciple'. A disciple is one who is learning... not conforming, not repeating... not repeating slogans... but constantly learning. So what do we mean by learning? When you go to school, college, university... you learn from books... from the professors, from the teachers, and memorise. That memory is necessary up to a certain point... to have a vocation, a job. Either one uses that memory skilfully or sloppily. So learning so far as we understand it generally... is to memorise. If you read a book, about mathematics... or computers or what you will... and memorise, and from that act. So it becomes mechanical. So is there a learning? 那么什么才是秩序？ 并且秩序和纪律的关系又是什么呢？ ”纪律“这个词，在语源学上指... ”学徒，在学习的徒弟“ 它来源于”学徒“这个词。 一个学徒是指一个时时在学习的人 而并非顺从和重复的人 他不是一个重复各种口号的人 而是一个不断学习的人。 那么所谓学习又是什么意思呢？ 当你进入学校进入大学的时候 你从书本上学习 你从教授那里学习，从老师那里学习，你记忆下你学习到的东西。 那样的记忆在某种程度上是必需的 譬如说为了从事一门职业，获得一份工作。 无论一个人使用起这些记忆来是娴熟的还是笨拙的。 所以，目前为止我们学习的普遍的理解是 学习就是去记忆。 如果你读一本关于数学的书 或者关于计算机的书或者你想要读的某一类的书 于是你就记忆它，然后依据你的记忆来采取行动。 于是这就变成了机械化的过程。 那么，这里有所谓的学习吗？
25:02 Please enquire with the speaker. He is asking the friend who is walking along... taking the journey together... he is asking him - what is actually learning? Is it merely memory operating... accumulation of a great deal of information... knowledge about various subjects... which have their own discipline, their own way... and gradually the brain... follows certain categories... certain grooves... and so those grooves and categories and specialisations... become a means of accumulating knowledge... memory, and operating from that memory. This is what we call learning. But, learning also implies... a constant movement... a brain that is not only burdened... with knowledge of mathematics... geography, history or computer and so on... but also the brain must be active... enquiring, questioning, doubting. And through this process there is never... I'm finding the right word... there is never a static state. Knowledge becomes static... when you have accumulated a great deal... it becomes repetitive, static... but learning is a movement... and therefore is never static, it is living. One must understand this very carefully... because each one of us... the self, the 'me', the persona... whatever name you give to the psyche... is a bundle of memories. We may think we are great spiritual entities... gods or all the rest of that business... but it is still memory... we are a bundle of memories. And to that memory we are adding all the time. But the essence of it is static. But whereas learning... not merely accumulating knowledge... but moving further away from knowledge... constantly... is the act of learning. That learning brings its own discipline which is to order. Therefore order is a living thing... not conformity, following a pattern... which doesn't mean that you change from day to day to day... that's what you are all doing - going after various fads. But learning implies tremendous observation... observation without motive. The moment you have motive that motive is static... because that motive is born out of memory. 请您，和讲者一起来质询。 他正在问他的朋友，这位和他并肩而行的朋友 这位和他一起经历着这段旅程的朋友 他问他的这位朋友——什么是真正的学习？ 难道学习仅仅是记忆的运作 仅仅是大量信息的累积 关于各种不同主题的知识 这些知识都有各自的纪律，遵循各自的运作方式 于是大脑渐渐的 遵循一定的分类 一定的惯例 于是这些各种各样的惯例，分类和专门化 制造出了一种积累知识 积累记忆，然后通过那些记忆运作的方式。 这就是我们称为学习的东西。 但是，学习也意味着 一种持续不断的运动 一个不仅仅是被 数学知识 地理知识、历史知识和计算机知识等等所重压着的头脑 而是一个必须非常的活跃 随时质询、提问和质疑的头脑。 那么通过这样的过程，就永远不会有 我在试图找到一个合适的词 就永远不会出现一个僵死的状态。 知识会处于一种僵死的状态 如果你已经积累了一大堆的知识 它会变得不断重复和僵死 但是学习是一种运动 因此永远都不是僵死的，而是充满了活力。 一个人必须非常用心仔细地了解这一点 因为我们每一个人 那个自我，那个”我“，那个我的角色 无论你如果给那个心智命名 它都是一大堆的记忆而已。 我们或者会认为我们是伟大的精神实体 我们是神，或者其余类似的种种 但是，我们仍然只是我们的记忆而已 我们是一大堆的记忆。 并且我们还在不断地在那个记忆当中添加新的记忆。 但是它的本质仍然是僵死的。 然而学习 不非仅仅是积累知识 而是进一步的从这些知识当中解脱出来 不断的解脱 这才是学习的行动。 也就是说，学习带来了它自身的纪律——去建立它自身的秩序。 因此，秩序是一个充满活力的事物 它不循规蹈矩，它没有一定的模式 而我们总是日复一日地循规蹈矩做事，依照模式的行动 这也是你们所有人都在做的事情——我们追随各种各样的流行。 但是学习意味着全然的观察 没有任何动机的观察。 你产生动机的那一刻，你的动机是僵死的 因为动机是产生于记忆的。
30:06 I hope my friend is following all this. If not he says, 'I don't understand what the devil you are talking about! We all live by motives. Sexual motives, motives of pleasure... motives of wanting, gratifying... achieving, achieving illumination... you know, enlightenment - all that - we live by motive... and you are saying something... either true or utterly nonsense.' 我希望我的朋友能够明白我讲的这些。 如果他不明白他就会说：“你究竟在讲什么我都不明白！ 我们的生活中充满了动机。 来自于性的动机，来自于快感的动机 想要得到的动机，想要取悦他人 想要达成某事，想要获得启发 你知道，想要开悟，所有的这一切，我们都是活在动机当中 然而你却在讲 那或许是真的或者全是些废话。”
30:56 The word 'motive', the root meaning of that word is 'to move'. To move, not in a particular direction... not self-centred egotistic desire. This becomes difficult... motive implies, as we said... motive is born out of memory. “动机”这个单词，它的词根意思是“移动，转移”。 移动，并非朝着一个特定的方向 并非以自我为中心的自大的个人欲求。 以下的话可能变得有些难于理解 动机意味着，如我们前面讲过的 动机产生于记忆。
31:34 Right? Because I want something which I am missing. Right? That's one form of motive. I want to achieve fame... appear in the beastly papers... well-known, power, position... everybody say, 'What a marvellous bird you are'. There is a motive... which is a projection of our own memory and desire... therefore that memory is limited and therefore static. Right, have you understood, my friend? He says, 'Go on, I am catching what you are talking about. But is this possible, he asks... to live and to live so that... there is constantly learning, till you reach a point... when there is no learning at all?' Because what is there to learn... except mathematics, engineering... science and so on... technological learning? Apart from all that, what is there to learn? 对不对？ 有这样的动机因为我想要拥有我所没有的东西。对不对？ 这是动机的一种形式。 我想要获得名望 让我的名字出现在那些残忍的报纸上 我想出名，我想获得权利，我想拥有地位 每个人都说，“你是多么了不起的人物啊！” 动机 是我们的记忆和欲求的投射物 因此这样的记忆是局限的，是僵死的。 那么，你能够理解吗，我的朋友？ 他继续说：“请接着说下去，我能够跟得上你所说的。 但是我们有没有可能 生活着，并且在生活中 不断的学习，直到 根本没有可以学的为止？” 因为有什么是值得学习的吗？ 除了那些数学，工程学 科学，等等 机械化的学习。 除了那些，还有什么可以学习的呢？
33:23 'Please, you understand, go slowly my friend.' He says to me, to the speaker... 'Go slow - I am not - my brain doesn't... work as rapidly as yourself.' That's a form of flattery which the speaker is not falling for. So he says, 'Explain a little more'... because we are talking about order. This order can only be understood and lived... not merely intellectually understood... but lived in daily life. That order comes only... when the static movement... of the self as memory... with its motive is no longer operating. Because the self is a bundle of memories... I am telling the friend... if you watch yourself, you see you are a bundle of memories... to those memories can be added a great deal... but it is still memory... and therefore it is limited, therefore it is static. Anything that is static must create conflict... with things that are moving. So, find out... the speaker is telling the friend... find out if you can live... without a motive and yet learn all the time... till you come to a point... when there is nothing to learn any more... we'll go into that presently... so that there is complete order. Order for most of us means conformity, repetition... adjustment... always from a centre adjusting. So order is a living thing... not a blueprint. And that order brings... an extraordinary sense of stability... gives great strength... from which... as the earth from which trees... everything grows... this sense of great stability... strength from which every other thing can flow. “请你，请你明白，你必须慢慢来，我的朋友。” 他对我说，对讲话者说... “慢慢来，我不能够，我的大脑不能够 象你的大脑一样快速的运转。” 这是一种讲话者不会落入的恭维的陷阱。 所以他接着说，“再解释一下” 因为我们正在讨论的是秩序。 这种秩序只能够被理解和实践 不仅是在知性上理解 而且必须在日常的生活中去践行。 这样的秩序产生的前提是 所有僵死的行动 这种出自记忆的自我的僵死的行动 及其动机都停止运作。 因为我们的自我就是一大堆的记忆 我告诉这位朋友... 如果你观察你自己，你就会看到你是一大堆的记忆 这一大堆的记忆可以被添加大量的其它记忆 但是它仍然只是记忆 因此它是局限的，因此它是僵死的。 任何僵死的事物，必然造成冲突 与那些充满活力的事物形成冲突。 所以我们来查出真相 讲者告诉他的朋友 我们来探索，我们是否可以生活 却不带任何动机，并且时刻都在学习 直到 已经再没有什么可以学习了 我们正要探索这一点 然后就产生了全然的秩序。 对我们大部分人来说，秩序意味着循规蹈矩，意味着重复 意味着调整 总是从我们自我的那个中心进行调整。 所以秩序是活跃的 而不是一个蓝图。 并且这种秩序带来的是 一种不同凡响的稳定感 巨大的能量 以这样的稳定感和能量为源头 就象大地作为树木的源头 所有一切皆可以成长 以这种不同凡响的稳定感 和能量为源头，其它的所有一切都可以流淌。
37:19 So my friend says, 'It all sounds marvellous, verbally... but I don't quite capture what you're talking about. I understand it vaguely... but perhaps I'll capture it one day.' And the speaker says, 'You'll never capture it one day! Either you capture it now... and if you don't understand it now... you'll never understand it tomorrow. Because the 'now' is time. The 'now' contains all time... the past, the present and the future. Right? What is now, what you are now... is what you'll be tomorrow. Unless you radically change now, you'll be... the future is what you are now. That's so obvious. So, the future is the present... and the present is the past... so the present now contains all time.' And when my friend says, 'I'll think about it... and perhaps eventually get it'... then he is merely postponing... not giving attention to the whole content of the 'now'. And the 'now', which is attention, is order. 于是我的朋友说，“这一切从字面上听起来都很美妙 但是我不能够全然理解你所说的事情。 我可以含糊的理解它 但是或许有一天我可以完全理解它。” 讲者回答说：“你永远没办法有一天完全理解它！ 或者你在这个当下完全理解它 如果你不在这个当下理解它 你永远不会在明天理解它。 因为这个‘当下’即是时间。 这个‘当下’包含了所有时间 过去，现在和未来。 你明白吗？ 这个当下是什么，这个当下的你是什么 明天的你就是什么。 除非你在这个当下发生根本全然的改变，你将会 未来的你就只是当下的你。这是最明了不过的真相了。 所以，未来就是现在 而现在就是过去... 所以现在的这个当下包含了一切时间。” 于是我的朋友说，“我将考虑你说的话 或许我将最终了悟它的真理” 然后他就仅仅是推迟拖延 并不给予这个“当下”的完整内容以充分的全神贯注的关注。 然而，这个“当下”即是全神贯注的关注，即是秩序。
39:25 So, let's go to next thing. My friend asks... 'Why is it that all my life... I have sought pleasure?' Pleasure seems to be the most important thing in one's life. What's wrong with pleasure? Why is it that human beings go after it so ceaselessly? Pleasure through sex... pleasure through possessions... pleasure through power, fame, notoriety? Pleasure through writing a book - it may be a failure... people may not buy it, but the pleasure of writing it. Pleasure seems to be a common lot of humanity. And why? Why has it become so important? 'Please enquire, the speaker says to his friend, enquire.' Don't say, 'Yes, I must have pleasure.' We have always lived by pleasure... fulfilment, gratification... achievement... the different forms of pleasure. But why is it that we cling to it... that we perpetually are after it? We take drugs, alcohol... with all its misery, but it's pleasurable. The immediacy of pleasure. You understand? Not the postponement of pleasure. Right? That is, where there is pleasure now, at the second... there is no interference or interpretation of thought. Pleasure, the second there is the pleasure... then a few seconds later... thought creates the image of that pleasure... of that sensation... and then pursues that. Right, my friend, do you understand this? 那么，让我们来进入下面的内容。 我的朋友问我 “为什么我一生 都在不停的寻求各种愉悦？” 愉悦的感觉看起来似乎是一个人生命中最重要的事情。 那么愉悦的感觉究竟坏处在哪里？ 为什么人类追逐愉悦快感的行为永远无法停止？ 性带来的愉悦感 通过占有获得的愉悦感... 通过权利，名望甚至臭名远扬获得的愉悦感，这种追逐活动为什么无法停止？ 通过写一本书获得的愉悦感，这本书可能是一部失败的作品 人们可能不会去买它，但是写这本书本身即能带来愉悦感。 追逐愉悦感似乎是人类共同的命运。 那么，这是为什么呢？ 为什么它如此的重要？ “请质询”，讲者对他的朋友说，“质询它。” 不要说，“是的，我必须有这些愉悦感。” 我们一直以来都依赖着各种各样的愉悦感 我们追求达成圆满，追求心满意足 追求功成名就 各种不同形式的愉悦感。 但是我们为什么要依附于愉悦感呢 而无止境的紧追其后呢？ 我们使用毒品，酒精 尽管它们带来各种的痛苦，但是我们仍然沉溺在它们带来的快感当中。 那种即刻获得的愉悦感。 你们明白我所讲的吗？ 不是什么延缓了的愉悦感。 是不是？ 这就是说，如果当下这一刻存在着愉悦感，就在这一秒钟 就不会存在思想的干扰和解释活动。 愉悦感一旦产生 几秒钟之后 思想就会制造出愉悦感相应的具象 这个具象来源于愉悦感所带来的种种感官的感受 接着我们的头脑就开始不断的追逐这一想象。 我的朋友，你能了解我所说的吗？
42:39 So thought, again, creates the image of that second... seeing the extraordinary beauty of the sunset... with all the golden light of an evening... the great beauty and the stillness of the sunset... with its green ray which so rarely happens... there is the immediate perception of that... then thought says, 'How marvellous that was! How beautiful! How extraordinarily vital!' And it has created image... and the next day it wants it again. Right? So the understanding of thought... the thinking process... becomes extraordinarily important. 所以说，思想在那一刻产生了一个具象 当我们欣赏着日落时的非凡美景 伴着傍晚时金黄色的霞光 感受强烈的美感和日落的沉静 还有可能偶遇那罕见的绿光 这一切的美好我们都是即刻感知的 然而思想说道，“多么的美妙呵！ 多么美丽呵！多么充满活力的景观呵！” 于是它创造出了这个具象 在接下来的那一天，思想想要再一次获得这样的美景。 是这样吗？ 所以懂得什么是思想 思想是如何运作的 变得至关重要。
43:57 Fear is one of the factors of our life... like pleasure. Perhaps fear is a greater factor than pleasure. Fear of not having pleasure. So, my friend says... 'Can we go into this question of fear? And also in exploring,' he says, 'can it ever end... or must fear everlastingly be the burden of humanity?' So together, my friend, we are going to find out... not the speaker is going to instruct, and you follow... which becomes rather childish and immature... but rather, together... you and the speaker... are going into this question of fear. 恐惧是人生的一个重要因素 就象愉悦感一样。 或许恐惧比愉悦感更关键。 我们对于无法获得愉悦感的恐惧。 所以，我的朋友对我说 “我们能深入讨论一下恐惧这个问题吗？ 恐惧感能在探索的过程中终结吗？ 还是说它将作为人类的重担永远存在下去？” 那么，我的朋友，让我们共同来探索它 并非讲者传授，你跟随 那样的话我们的交流就变得非常幼稚和不成熟 相反的，我们要一起 你和讲者 共同来深入探讨这个恐惧的问题。
45:22 Man has lived with fear for thousands upon thousands of years. Fear of nature, thunderstorm... fear of darkness... fear of the very existence of life... fear of your neighbour... of one's wife or husband... fear of not achieving... fear of being a failure... especially in this country... where success is worshipped. Don't you all want success? Of course we all do. And most of us, unfortunately or fortunately... are not great successes... except perhaps a few politicians, and the gurus... which accumulate money... with their nonsense... and the evangelist and so on, so on, so on. You know, have you ever realised... the Catholic world is the most... real estate people in the world? They own great quantities of earth all over the world. And achievement, success... longing to be loved... and finding that you're not loved. And fear, bitterness, anxiety, and hate. So we, together, ought to go into the question of fear. Not merely the explanation, the description... which is very deceptive... because people are generally caught... in description and explanations... and so never get to the root of it. 人类已经与恐惧共处了成千上万年的时间。 人类对大自然的恐惧，对暴风雨的恐惧 对黑暗的恐惧 对生命存在本身的恐惧 对邻居的恐惧 丈夫对妻子的恐惧，妻子对丈夫的恐惧 对无法功成名就的恐惧 对失败的恐惧 特别是你们身处的这个国家 人们对成功顶礼膜拜。 你们所有的人，难道你们不是都想获得成功吗？ 当然，我们都想获得它。 但是我们大部分的人，或者你认为这是一种幸运，或者你认这是一种不幸 都并非什么成功人士 除了一些政客和上师们 他们通过各种胡说八道的宣传 聚敛钱财 一些所谓的福音布道者也玩着同样的把戏，等等，等等。 你们知道吗？你们是否曾经意识到 天主教世界 是全世界最大的房地产业主？ 他们在全世界范围内拥有大量的土地。 还有，我们想取得成就，我们想成功 我们渴望被爱 但却发现我们得不到爱。 生活中充斥着恐惧、苦难、焦虑还有仇恨。 那么我们应该一起，来深入到这个恐惧的问题当中。 不是仅仅去解释恐惧，描述恐惧 如果我们那样做，就具有很大的欺骗性 因为人们总是被这些 描述和解释所困 所以永远无法深入到它的根源。
47:55 My friend says, 'Let's get to the root of it... because I am also fed up with explanations. I can go to a psychologist and all the rest of it... but those explanations have not completely... eradicated from me the sense of fear.' So unless we go into it very deeply... mere explanation is of very little value. The feel of it, the quality of it, the structure of it... because where there is fear... there is everlastingly seeking security. Fear has created all the gods and the saviours of the world. A man that has no fear at all... both biologically and psychologically... for him there is no god... because he is the essence of a religious mind. We'll go into that later. 我的朋友对我说，“让我们深入探索恐惧的根源 因为我已经受够了种种的解释。 我可以去向心理学专家求教或者向其他的学者们求教 但是他们的所有解释从来没有圆满过 从来没有办法完全彻底的根除我的恐惧感。” 所以，除非我们非常深入的去探究它 仅仅是解释的话，对我们将不具有任何价值。 我们要探究恐惧的感受是什么，质地是什么，它的结构是什么 因为哪里有恐惧 哪里就有永恒不变的追寻安全感的活动。 人类因为恐惧的原因而在这个世界上造出了各种的神和救世主。 一个没有任何恐惧的人 既没有生理上的恐惧也没有心理上的恐惧 对他来说，就不会存在神 因为这样的人具备了宗教心灵的核心本质。 我们随后会探索这一点。
49:18 So, together, let's find out what is the root of it. Will you find out... or will the speaker find out and tell you about it? Which means: is your brain... the speaker asking his friend... is your brain active enough, passionate enough... has energy to find out? Or you're merely verbally... wanting something to find out? But if you have that intensity to find out... we'll go together into it. 那么，让我们一起来探询什么是恐惧的根源。 是你自己来探索呢 还是这个讲话者去发现这个真相再把它告诉你？ 我的意思是：你的头脑 这个讲话者问他的朋友 你的头脑够活跃吗？它是否充满热情？ 它是否有足够的能量来发现这个真相？ 还是你只是口头上 说你想要发现真相？ 但是如果你强烈的想要去探询它 我们就一同来深入它的本来面目。
50:18 First of all, time is a factor of fear. Time, as yesterday... of which we know because yesterday's memory... is stored in the brain... and tomorrow is uncertain... tomorrow may extend a thousand tomorrows... but tomorrow is uncertain therefore there is fear. I might lose, I might not gain... I might find myself lonely... desperate, anxious. So time as a factor of fear is obvious. So what is time? Why is it that time has become so important in our life? Time to learn a language... time to get engaged to a woman... time to become an expert in something or other... time to write a letter... but a computer is going to take away your time too... because it can do things so extraordinarily rapidly. I do not know if this is a moment to talk about the computer. Perhaps we will because it is rather interesting. 首先，时间是恐惧的一个要素。 时间，比如昨天 我们能够了解昨天，因为我们的头脑里 存储着关于昨天的记忆 而明天是不确定的 明天又可以延伸出一千个明天 但是明天代表着不确定，因此就产生了恐惧。 我可能会失去什么，我可能将无法获得 我可能会落得很孤单 绝望，焦虑。 所以显而易见，时间是恐惧的一个重要元素。 那么什么是时间？ 为什么时间在我们的人生中变得那么重要？ 我们需要时间来学习一门语言 我们需要时间来和一个女人订婚 我们需要时间来变成某一方面的专家 我们需要时间写一封信 但是计算机也将会剥夺你的一部分时间 因为计算机工作的速度是非常惊人的。 我不知道现在谈论计算机是否是合适的时机。 或许我们可以来谈一下，因为这是一个非常有意思的现象。
52:12 We have been talking to the experts about it... specialists who are producing computers. They can do almost everything that man can do... except perhaps be affectionate to another. It can compose, it can etcetera... you know how much, I won't go into it. It can build a car through a robot... as some of them are doing... in various factories in Japan and Germany and here. And so the computer can be programmed... as we are programmed... to be Christians, to be Hindus, to be American... to be specialists: we are programmed. Our brain functions on programs, which is memory. And the computer can do all this with extraordinary rapidity. The IBM lately discovered that chip... a million memories in that one little chip. It can calculate, it can add... it can do extraordinary things, the computer. So what's going to happen to the brain of human beings? You understand my question? 我们曾经和计算机方面的专家们讨论过 那些制造计算机的专家们。 计算机几乎可以做人类可以做的所有事情 除了它们或许不能互相倾注感情。 它们可以写作，它们可以做各种各样的事情 你们可能知道它们都有哪些能耐，我就不一一叙述了。 它可以用机器人来造汽车 就象已经有一些计算机在做这种事情了 在日本和德国都有这样的工厂，在这里也有。 那么我们可以给计算机编一些程序 就象我们也被编上了程序 我们的程序是，成为基督徒，成为印度教教徒，成为美国人 成为专家：我们都被编上了程序。 我们的大脑根据这些程序来运作，这些程序就是记忆。 而计算机可以完成所有的这一切，而且速度迅捷无比。 IBM最近发现，芯片 百万的记忆可以被存储在一个小小的芯片里。 它可以运算，可以添加 计算机可以做各种各样非凡的事情。 那么我们人类的大脑会变成什么样子呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？
53:55 Our brains have been active... in adding and subtracting... in a shop, in a supermarket, you have to add... work, use your brain to add. But when you press a button and a computer does all the adding... you don't think at all. So what is going to happen to the brain... that is becoming more and more... or less and less active... which is becoming more and more mechanical, limited... when the computer can do almost everything? Either it degenerates very rapidly as is taking place now... of which most of us are totally unaware... or everlastingly be entertained. The entertainment industry is immensely strong. The entertainment industry is not only the cinema... the magazines and all that... but also the religious entertainment... don't get upset about it... it is also part of entertainment... because it is nothing to do with our daily living. So the computer may produce... may bring about a withering state of the brain... and so the entertainment industry takes it over... which is happening now. Please be aware of it for god's sake! Or we have the whole vast area of the psyche... to investigate and live differently. These two possibilities are open to you. And inevitably man, being what he is, will choose entertainment. 我们的大脑一直以来非常的活跃 做各种的加和减 在商店里，在超市中，你必须要去加 你的大脑要运算，用你的大脑去加。 但是当你按下一个按钮计算机就帮你完成了所有的加法 你的大脑就完全没有必要思考工作了。 那么我们的大脑会起什么样的变化呢 我们的大脑就会变得越来越 或者越来越不活跃了 就是变得越来越机械和局限 当计算机已经能替代我们做几乎所有事情的时候，我们的头脑会变成什么样子？ 或者我们的大脑迅速退化，就象现在已经在发生的一样 虽然我们大部分的人并没有意识到这一点 再或者我们就是耽溺在无休止的娱乐当中。 娱乐业是异常强大的。 娱乐业并非仅仅是电影院 杂志和这一类的东西 它还包括宗教的娱乐业 不要因为我所说的话而感到不快 那些都仅仅是娱乐的一部分而已 因为那些都与我们的每一天的生活毫无关系。 所以说，计算机可能会制造出 可能会带来大脑的枯竭萎缩的状态 所以娱乐业才能形成接管的局面 这就是正在我们身边发生的事实。 请你们，务必要意识到这一点！ 或者我们说，我们有这样辽阔的心智领域 我们要去探索它，活出不同的人生。 这两种可能性都是时刻向你敞开的。 但是不可避免的，人类以他的现状，将会选择娱乐。
56:24 So we must come back and find out... what is the root of fear. We said time. Time is the most extraordinary complex thing. We live by time - we have to go to lunch at a certain time. And time is contained in the present, the future, the past... the whole movement of time is now... if you look at it... because tomorrow is what you are now. If you're angry, hating, violent now... tomorrow you will be the same exactly... perhaps slightly modified or expanded. 所以我们必须要向回看并且继续探索 什么是恐惧的根源。 我们说过是时间。 时间是最不同寻常的复杂事物。 我们活在时间当中-我们必须要约好时间去吃午餐。 时间包含在现在，未来和过去当中 时间的整体运作就是当下 如果你能看到这个真相 因为明天就是你的现在。 如果你现在是愤怒的，充满仇恨，充满暴力 明天你将是完全相同的 可能只是作了细微的修饰和扩展。
57:26 So the future is now. Please see the truth of this. The fact of it, my friend. So if you don't radically... fundamentally bring about... a total psychological revolution in you... tomorrow you will be the same. So time is the enemy of man. Please see it. So time is a factor of fear... I have a job, I might lose it... my wife can run away, leaving me alone... jealousy and all the rest of it follows. So time is the basic root cause of fear. And time is also thought. Both are movements... both psychologically... and outwardly, externally. So time, thought are the root of fear. It is a fact. 所以未来就是现在。 请你了悟这一真相。 看到真相，我的朋友。 所以如果你不从根本上 彻彻底底的进行一场 完全的自我心理革命 明天的你将不会有任何的不同。 所以，时间是人类的敌人。 请你看到这样的真相。 所以我们说，时间是恐惧的一个重要元素 我有一份工作，我可能会失去它 我的太太可能会出走，将我一个人孤独的留下来 嫉妒和随之而来的一切都摆在了我的面前。 所以，时间是造成恐惧的本质的根源。 并且，时间也是思想。 这两者都是运动 都运作在心理层面上 都是表面的，外部的。 所以，时间和思想就是恐惧的根源。 这就是它的真相。
59:13 Then my friend asks... 'How in heaven's name can I stop time, thinking? How can I? I have to go to the office... time is necessary there? But time - you are saying to me... inwardly, psychologically... when you use time to become, to be, to drive, etc... that time is the enemy. Because tomorrow is what you are now. Therefore, unless you profoundly change now... tomorrow is the enemy.' 接着我的朋友问道 “天哪！我要如何才能让时间和思想止息啊？ 我怎么做得到？我必须要去我的办公室 这可是要花费时间的。 但是，你却对我说，时间 内在的，心理上的时间 当人们使用时间去成为，去存在，去驱动，等等 那个时间就是我们的敌人。 因为明天就是你现在的自己。 那么除非你在这个当下发生剧变 明天就是你的敌人。”
1:00:04 So fear - of which you are all well aware... every human being on this earth knows fear... the calamity of that, the sadness of that... and the brutality of fear. That's what's happening: the brutality of ideologies... the Russian ideology and the democratic ideology. Yes, sirs, look into it carefully. So time, thought are the root of fear. 'How am I', my friend asks... 'to stop this movement of time and thought?' The speaker says then, that's a wrong question. When you put a wrong question... there is no answer to a wrong question. Put the right question... which is: do you see the fact... the actuality of time and thought? Not as an idea, but a fact... that what you are, you will be. And if you see the fact... not the fact through an idea. Do you understand? Our brains first capture the idea... and then apply the idea to the fact. The word 'idea' in Greek and so on... has not only other different meanings to it... but 'idea' means 'to observe'. Not through observation come to a conclusion... just to observe. When you so deeply observe... with passion, intensity... which is to give your attention to time and thought... then there is no fear at all. 那么恐惧，这个所有人都能深刻感受的东西 所有这个地球上的人类都有恐惧 恐惧带来的不幸，带来的悲伤 恐惧带来的残忍。 这就是发生在我们身边的事实：意识形态带来的残忍行为 无论是俄国的意识形态或者民主的意识形态。 是的，先生们，仔细的探索这个问题。 那么，时间和思想是恐惧的根源。 我的朋友问道：“我如何才能 让时间和思想的行动止息？” 讲者于是说，这是一个错误的问题。 当你的问题没有提对 就没有答案可以回答。 请提出恰当的问题 这个问题就是：你是否看得到真相 看到时间和思想的事实？ 不是一个概念，而是了悟它的事实 那就是，现在的你，就是将来的你。 那么如果你看得到这个真相 并非通过某个想法去制造一个真相。 你能够了解吗？ 我们的头脑首先捕捉到一个想法... 然后再将这个想法加诸于这个真相。 “想法”这个词在希腊语里 不但有其它的各种含义 而且还意指“去观察”。 不是通过观察获得一个结论 而是，仅仅去观察。 当你深入的去观察 用你的热情，用你的注意力 就是关注时间和思想 那么恐惧就完全消失了。
1:02:57 My friend says, 'At the moment... when you are expressing this I understand it. Your intensity helps me.' But don't depend on it. So find out if you have this energy... the vitality, the intensity, to go to the very end of it... to the end of the journey into fear. Which means you must sustain all the time the same intensity... not slacken at any moment. Go with the same intensity... the same movement... until you come to the end of it. 我的朋友说，“在这一刻 当你把它这样表述出来，我能够理解它了。 你的热烈帮助了我。” 但是，请你不要去依赖它——不要依赖于我的帮助。 那么来探索你是否具有这样的能量 这样的活力，这样的热情，来深入到这个问题的最终点 深入到这场探索恐惧的旅程的最终点。 这就意味着你必须由始至终的保持这样的热情 在任何时候都不能松懈。 以这样的热情去探索 同样的方式 直到你走到旅程的最终点。
1:04:06 But most of us waste our energy... through chattering... endlessly chattering, gossiping, criticising, backbiting. And also wasting our energy in conflict... perpetual quarrels with each other. We are wasting our energy trying to 'become something'. There is no 'becoming something' at all... there is only 'what is', and the complete changing of 'what is'. Then you have untold energy. Not to do more mischief... but to live a life daily... with great love and compassion and intelligence. 但是我们大部分的人都在浪费我们的能量 我们闲谈 永无休止的闲谈，聊天，批评他人，诽谤中伤。 也在冲突中浪费我们的能量 我们彼此无休止的争吵。 我们浪费我们的能量试图“成为了不起的人”。 其实根本没有什么“成为了不起的人” 有的仅仅是“当下如何”， 以及完全彻底的改变这个“当下如何”。 然后你就会拥有不可言传的巨大能量。 不是用这些能量去制造更多伤害 而是让你生活的每一天 都充满巨大的爱和慈悲以及智慧。
1:05:26 I'll stop today, and we'll continue Saturday and Sunday... next Saturday and Sunday... but Tuesday and Thursday I believe we are going to have questions... that some people have sent in... and answers from the speaker. Not answers - we are going to investigate these questions together. 那么今天我就讲到这里，我们会在周六和周日继续 下周六和下周日 但是周二和周四我想我们会进行答问 那些问题是大家提出来的 由讲者来回答。 不是回答——是我们共同来探索这些问题。