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OJ85Q1 - 第一次问答会
美国加利福尼亚州 欧亥
1985年5月14日



0:09 Krishnamurti: I have got my own watch. 克里希那穆提(以下简称“克”):我把自己的手表拿来了。
0:39 Many questions have been put, written down, and out of those some have been chosen. I haven't seen them personally. And you cannot possibly answer all those questions, there are too many. It would take a very long time. 你们提出了很多的问题,把它们写下来了, 他们从这些问题中挑选出了一些。 我个人还没有看过这些问题。 你是不可能去回答所有的问题的, 因为问题实在太多了。 要全部回答需要花费漫长的时间。
1:10 I think we ought to ask ourselves why we ask questions, and naturally we must ask questions, but why do we ask questions? From whom does one expect an answer? From the speaker, or from someone who can explain things away? Or can we have a dialogue about a question? That is, you ask a question and the speaker replies to that question, then you reply to the speaker's response and then the speaker responds to that question. So it is like playing tennis, back and forth, till the question itself is suspended between the two of us. That is, you ask a question, then I reply to that question, the speaker. Then you reply or respond to my response, and we keep this going till your response and my response have no further activity. So the question is suspended, as it were. If you try it, if you have ever done it, probably not, then the question begins to have its own vitality, its own urgency, its own capacity to answer itself. But when we answer a question it is always from the background of memory. It may be prejudice, it may be some kind of conclusion, or some faith and so on. So if we could suspend all that, and look at the question itself, let the question evolve, grow, expand, then if you want an answer, it is in the question, not from your background. I wonder if I am making myself clear. It is rather interesting if you go into it. It is very rarely that one has such a dialogue. Because we are so eager to find an answer we never look at the question, let the question evolve, expand, tell its story. And as you watch the question without any deviation, as it were, then the question itself has an extraordinary meaning. Is this clear? 我认为我们应该问问自己:为什么我们要问问题? 当然了,我们一定会提问, 但为什么我们要提问? 我们期望从谁那里得到答案? 是从演讲者那里, 还是从某个可以把问题辩解搪塞过去的人那里? 或者,我们可以就那个问题展开一场对话吗? 那意思就是, 你问了一个问题, 演讲者回答了那个问题, 然后你又对演讲者的回答作出了回应, 接着演讲者又对你的问题作出了反应。 所以这就像是在打网球,来来回回, 直到这个问题本身 在我们两人之间被挂起为止。 也就是说,你问了一个问题, 然后我回答了这个问题, 演讲者回答了它。 然后你对我的回答作出了回复或回应, 然后我们就一直这样下去, 直到你的回应和我的回应不再有进一步的活动为止。 于是那个问题就好像是被悬挂起来了一样。 如果你可以试试它, 如果你曾经这么做过——你可能没这么做过, 那么问题就会开始展现出它自身的活力、 它自身的紧迫性, 以及它自我回答的能力。 然而我们对于某个问题的回答, 它总是来自于我们记忆的背景。 它也许是一种偏见,它也许是某种定论, 或者某种信仰,等等。 所以如果我们可以将所有这些东西挂在一边, 然后去看一下问题本身, 让那个问题自我演变、 成长和扩展的话, 那么,如果你想要一个答案,你会发现那个答案就藏在问题之中, 而不是来自于你的背景的。 我不知道我是否把我的意思表达清楚了。 如果你深入探究它的话,它是相当有趣的。 我们很少会有这样的对话。 因为我们都如此渴望去找到一个答案, 我们从来不会去看那个问题, 去让那个问题自己演变、扩展,讲述它自己的故事。 当你不偏不倚地去观察那个问题, 仿佛没有任何偏离误差, 那么问题本身就会具有一种非凡的意义。 这一点清楚了吗?
5:09 So, we are going to look at these questions that way. We are going to watch, listen to the question. As the speaker has not read these questions you and the speaker can play this game, back and forth, till the ball is suspended in the air. If we could do this, that is really the art of having a dialogue, a conversation, a communication in which the participants don't take part. Will you do this for fun? Then you will see that the question begins to respond out of the very heart of the question. So let's try. That is, you and the speaker are going to have a dialogue in which you and the speaker are playing a part. They don't take the role of a questioner and a person who answers the question. But together we are going to put aside our backgrounds, if we have any, then the question itself begins to move, begins to have its own activity. Shall we do that? 所以,我们将会以这样的方式来观察这些问题。 我们将会来观察和聆听那个问题。 由于演讲者还没有读过这些问题, 所以你和演讲者可以玩这个游戏了, 来来回回, 直到那个球悬挂在空中为止。 如果我们可以这么做的话, 这便是对话的艺术了, 在这种谈话、 这种交流中,参与者并没有支持偏袒。 你们愿意来玩下这个好玩的游戏吗? 然后你便会看到 那个问题会开始 从问题的本质核心中产生出反应。 所以让我们来试一试。 也就是,你和演讲者将会进行一场对话, 你和演讲者都参与了这场对话。 但他们并没有扮演 提问者或回答者的角色。 而是我们要一起,抛开我们的背景 ——如果我们有任何背景的话, 然后那个问题本身就会开始运动, 它会有其自身的活动。 我们可以这样做吗?
7:25 You know, the speaker, fortunately or unfortunately, has talked all over the world except behind the Iron Curtain or Bamboo Curtain. And questions are put to him of every kind. And if the speaker merely answers from memory, then it is no fun for him. It will be like a gramophone repeating. But if one puts aside one's own inclinations and tendencies and one's own acquired knowledge and looks at the question, and the person who is asking the question, look at his face, his gestures, why he is asking the question, what is the expression on his face, then you can see either it is a very, very superficial question, just put either to catch you or to see what your quick response would be and so on. But if we could do this, what we just now said, that is, back and forth, and let the question itself respond, then the answer in the question becomes extraordinarily significant. Right? We can do that. 你们都知道, 出于幸运或者不幸,演讲者曾经 在全世界各地进行过演讲——除了那些“铁幕国家” 或者“竹幕国家”。 人们向他提出了各种各样的问题。 所以,如果演讲者仅仅是依靠记忆来回答这些问题的话, 那他就没有什么乐趣了。 那样的话他就像是不断重复播放的留声机一样了。 但如果我们可以抛开 我们自己的倾向和癖好, 抛开我们自己所获得的那些知识, 然后去观察那个问题 以及那个问问题的人, 观察他的脸,他的手势, 看看他为什么要问这个问题, 他脸上的表情是怎样的, 那么你便会看到,它可能是一个非常非常肤浅的问题, 提出这样的问题,要么是为了吸引你的注意力, 要么是为了看看你对这个问题的第一反应是什么,等等。 但如果我们可以按照我们刚刚所说的那样去做, 也就是,来来回回, 让那个问题本身作出回答, 那么,那个隐含在问题中的答案就会变得极其重要了。 对吧?我们可以这样去做吗?我们可以的。
9:30 1st Question: Would you please explore further into the mechanism of guilt and its relation to the ego. (第一个问题):你能否进一步探究一下 负罪感(guilt)的过程,以及它与自我(ego)的关系。
9:42 Would you please explore further into the mechanism of guilt and its relation to the ego. 你能否进一步探究一下 负罪感(guilt)的过程, 以及它与自我的关系。
9:54 Ego being the person, the psyche, the subjective entity – that is what one generally calls the ego, the 'me' and the 'you'. The question is, what relationship has guilt, the mechanism of it, to the whole structure of the self. “自我”就是指那个人, 他的心智, 那个主观化的存在体 ——这就是我们通常所说的“自我”, 那个“我”,和那个“你”。 而那个问题是:负罪感和它的关系, 负罪感的过程和自我的整个结构有什么关系?
10:27 Now, I am putting that question to you. And you are going to reply to that, to me, to the speaker. And then I will answer you, and then you answer me. So we keep this going till we have worn ourselves out, and we have no strength in the arm any more. So the question remains, the question is a challenge, the question is a problem that you have to face and resolve. We never resolve any problem because we are always answering from our background. Right? So, let's go into this question. You are playing the game, don't just listen to me, to the speaker. 现在,我把这个问题抛给你们。 现在你要来回答这个问题,来告诉我,告诉演讲者答案。 然后我会回复你,然后你再来回复我。 所以我们就一直保持这种来来回回,直到我们都精疲力竭为止, 直到我们手上的力气用尽为止。 因此那个问题被保留下来了, 问题就是一个挑战, 问题就是一个你必须要去面对并解决它的难题。 我们从来没有解决过任何问题, 因为我们总是通过自己的背景来回应问题的。 对吧? 好了,让我们来看看这个问题吧。 你们正在玩这个游戏, 所以不要只是听我讲, 听演讲者讲。
11:34 What is guilt? And what is its relationship to the ego, the whole consciousness of humankind, of man, of woman, and so on? What is guilt? Why does one have this enormous sense of guilt? It may be very, very superficial, or very, very deep, rooted from childhood, and allowed to grow as one gets older. And that feeling of guilt makes one either feel very empty – you know all this – empty, a sense of not being able to do anything. And then out of that guilt he builds a wall round himself. And that wall prevents any further communication. Or he is frightened of that guilt – you have told me to do something from childhood, and I can't do it, but I feel I must do it, and if I fail I feel guilty. And the parents play a terrible role in this. Sorry. They encourage this guilt, consciously or unconsciously. So that this guilt becomes part of the ego, part of me. 什么是负罪感? 它和自我的关系又是什么? 自我就是人类、就是男人和女人等等 全部的意识。 什么是负罪感? 为什么我们会有这种强烈的负罪感? 这种负罪感也许是非常非常肤浅的, 或者是非常非常深刻的, 它根植于童年, 随着我们年岁的增加而不断发展成长。 而那种负罪感, 它要么让我们感到非常的空虚 ——你们都知道这些——那种空虚感, 一种无能为力的感觉。 然后,因为那种负罪感,某人便在自己周围建造了一道围墙。 而那道围墙阻挡了任何更深的交流。 或者他会害怕那种负罪感 ——从小时候起,你就告诉了我要怎么怎么做, 虽然我做不到它,但我觉得我必须那样去做, 而如果我失败了,我便会有负罪感。 在这件事上,父母扮演了一个很糟糕的角色。 很抱歉。 父母有意识或无意识地鼓励了这种负罪感。 因此这种负罪感变成了自我的一部分, 变成了“我”的一部分。
13:48 I think it would be wrong to put the question – what is the relationship between the two – you understand how the question is evolving? It is not two separate things. It is the outcome of feeling guilt, with other factors, that constitute the ego. They are not two separate activities or two separate reactions. So guilt is part of the psyche, part of the ego, part of the me. 所以我认为这个问题 ——这两者的关系是什么——它问的不对, 你现在明白了问题是怎么逐渐演变的吧? 因为它们并不是两个分离独立的东西。 自我是负罪感以及其他各种因素的产物, 是这些东西组成了自我。 所以它们并不是两种分离的活动,或者两种分离的反应, 所以负罪感就是心智的一部分, 就是自我的一部分,就是“我”的一部分。
14:35 Now, why does one feel guilt? Apart from people who make you feel guilty, and hold you in that state. Because it is very convenient for them – they like to bully people, and bring about a sense of guilt, the feeling that you must submit, you must accept, you must obey. Though you revolt against it, you keep it underground and hold on to your guilt. Right? And other factors make up the ego, the me. And guilt makes one feel terribly lonely. Right? Are we talking to each other? A sense of depression and if that guilt is very, very deep and strong, I can't resolve it. Therefore I come to you and say, please help me to overcome this guilt. And then you impose, if you are the boss, another reaction of guilt. So it goes on. 那么,为什么我们会有负罪感呢? 除了那些把负罪感加诸于你, 然后让你保持罪恶感状态的人以外 ——因为这样一来,他们就会方便很多, 他们喜欢威吓别人, 然后带给你一种负罪感 ——那种你必须要顺从、 必须要接受、必须要服从的感觉。 尽管你对此很反感,想要反抗它, 但你还是把这种情绪深藏起来,然后保持着你的负罪感。 对吧? 还有其他一些因素,它们共同组成了那个自我, 那个“我”。 负罪感 让我们感到极度的孤独。 对吧?我们正在彼此交流着吗? 一种沮丧抑郁的感觉, 而如果那种负罪感非常非常的深刻和强烈的话, 我就无法解决它了。 所以我过来找你, 说:请帮助我克服这种负罪感。 而如果你是老大,你便会将另一种罪恶感的反应 强加于我了。 所以这件事就这样循环继续下去了。
16:15 I am asking, we are asking, why does this feeling exist at all? It is encouraged, is it not, in religions, orthodox religions. In Christianity there is the original sin and the saviour, and therefore I must feel guilty, and confession, and the whole circus begins. Forgive me if I use that word. It takes different forms. In the Christian world: confession, absolution, and in the Asiatic world it has a different form, they go to temples – you know, all kinds of things they do. But is it necessary to feel that? Can there be an education in which there is nothing of this? I wonder. We are playing together, please. Is there a kind of bringing up a child in which there is not this encouragement or the feeling of guilt? 而我在问,我们一起在问: 这种感觉究竟为什么会存在? 各种宗教鼓励了这种负罪感,难道不是吗? 那些正统的宗教。 在基督教中,有着原罪(original sin) 以及救世主的概念, 因此我必须要有罪恶感,然后去忏悔, 于是这整场“闹剧”便开始了 ——请原谅我使用(闹剧)这个词。 它会呈现为不同的形式。 在基督教世界里:它表现为忏悔、赦免; 而在亚洲人的世界里,它则会呈现为其他的形式, 人们会去寺庙里——你知道的,所有那些他们做的事情。 可我们有必要感到罪恶吗? 能否有一种在其中完全不带有负罪感的教育? 我不知道……对吧? 我们正在一起玩游戏,拜托了。 是否存在一种培养教育孩子的方式 在其中我们不会鼓励负罪感 或者感到罪恶?
17:51 Guilt becomes a problem. Right? Then we have to understand what is a problem. You are following all this? Are you interested in all this? 负罪感已经变成了一个问题。 对吧? 因此我们必须要去明白:什么是问题(problem)? 你们都跟上这一切了吗? 你们对这些有兴趣吗?
18:12 Questioner: Can I say something? 提问者:我可以插几句吗?
18:14 K: Oui, madame. 克:这位女士,请讲。
18:16 Q: There is something I don't understand, and I want to ask you. How can I look at guilt if guilt is not happening in the moment, without looking in my background? 提问者:有一些东西我不是很理解, 我想要问问你。 要是我不去看我的背景,在那一刻罪恶感是不会发生的, 那么如果它不发生,我要如何才能去观察罪恶感呢?
18:31 K: I can't understand the question.

Q: How can I look at guilt if guilt is not happening at the moment, without looking at my background.
克:这个问题我听不懂。提问者:如果我不去看我的背景, 那一刻罪恶感便不会发生了, 那么我要如何才能观察罪恶感呢?
18:38 K: We are going to go into it in a minute. Let me finish – we are pursuing something, bring it in a little later. Where was I? 克:我们过一会儿再来讨论它。 让我先讲讲完——我们正在追踪某个问题, 所以请稍后再问这些东西。 我讲到哪里了?
18:55 Q: Raising children without guilt. 提问者:不带有负罪感地养育孩子。
18:58 Q: What is a problem.

K: Ah, yes!
提问者:什么是问题(problem)?

克:啊,对了!
19:05 K: Guilt becomes a problem – how to resolve it, how to get over it, and all kinds of things begin with it. Then we make it into a problem. Now what is a problem? Human beings apparently have thousands of problems, political, religious, economic, sexual, relationship – you follow? Life, living becomes a problem, and generally associated with guilt, part of it. What is a problem? The meaning of that word etymologically, if I may use a rather long word, means 'something thrown at you'. Like a challenge is thrown at you. And a problem means something hurled at you, thrown at you, which you have to face. And what happens? There are political problems, and so on. And these political problems are never solved. In the very solution of one problem other problems increase, develop. So first, let's go into the question why human beings have problems at all. You understand what I am asking? You have problems, haven't you? Why do you have problems? And is it possible – we will go into the question, answer that a little later – is it possible not to have a single problem? Sexual, religious, political, economic, relationship, and so on. So let's find out – you are playing the game with me – let's find out why human beings have problems. 克:负罪感变成了一个问题——如何去解决它, 如何去克服它, 而所有的事情就从这里开始了。 然后我们把它变成了一个问题。 那么,什么是问题呢? 人类很显然有着成千上万的问题, 政治上的、宗教上的、经济上的、 性方面的、关系方面的问题——你跟上了吗? 生命、生活已经变成了一个问题, 并且它——它的一部分——通常会和负罪感关联在一起。 什么是问题? “问题”这个词的意思, 从语源上讲(etymologically)——请允许我使用如此长的一个单词, 它的意思是“某个朝你扔过来的东西”。 就像是一个向你发起的挑战。 问题意味着某个朝你投掷过来的、扔过来的东西, 而你必须要去面对它。 然后发生了什么呢? 我们有着那些政治上的问题,等等。 然而这些政治上的问题从未得到过解决。 解决了一个问题之后, 其他的问题又会冒出来, 又会发展出来。 所以首先,让我们来探究一下这个问题: 人类究竟为什么会有问题? 你们理解我在问的东西吗? 你们都有着各种问题,不是吗? 为什么你们会有问题呢? 那么是否可能 ——我们将来探讨这个问题,那个问题我们稍后再来回答—— 是否可能完全没有任何问题? 无论是性方面的、宗教上的、政治上的、经济上的、 关系上的问题,还是等等其他的问题。 所以让我们来发现一下 ——你正在和我玩这个游戏—— 让我们来发现下为什么人类会有问题?
21:49 From childhood, when a child goes to the school, writing becomes a problem to him. Right? Reading, spelling, then mathematics, geography, history, biology, chemistry, science, archaeology, and so on. So, from the very beginning he is trained, or conditioned to have problems. Right? This is obvious. So his brain is conditioned to have problems. Right? Are you playing the game? And all his life from the moment he is born practically till he dies, the brain continues to live in problems because he has been educated, cultivated, and the whole system of comparison, examinations, rewards, punishments and so on, all that has made the brain to not only receive problems but have its own problems – it is conditioned that way, therefore it can never solve any problem. So, is it possible from the very beginning not to give the child or ourselves problems? Which means, can the brain be free from its condition to live with problems? When the brain is free then it can solve problems, it doesn't matter what they are. Are we together in this? 从小时候开始,当一个孩子去学校读书, 如何写字对他来说就成了问题。 对吧? 阅读、拼写, 然后是数学的问题、地理学的问题、历史的问题、 生物学、化学、科学、 考古学,等等。 所以,从一开始起, 孩子就已经被培训或制约着去获得各类问题了。 对吧?这是显而易见的。 所以他的大脑已经被制约着去拥有各种问题。 对吧?你们正在玩这个游戏吗? 而他的一生,几乎是从他出生的那一刻起直到他死去为止, 大脑都一直生活在问题之中, 因为他已经如此地被教育和培养了, 那整个互相比较的体系, 那些考试, 那些奖励和惩罚,等等, 所有这一切,它不仅让大脑 得到了那些问题,也让大脑有了它自己的问题 ——大脑就是这样受到制约的, 因此,它永远无法去解决任何问题。 所以,我们是否可能 从一开始 就不要给孩子或我们自己那些问题? 这意味着,大脑能否摆脱掉 自身的局限,从而不再带着问题而生活? 当大脑是自由的,它就可以去解决问题了, 那是什么问题并不重要。 我们是否都理解了它?
24:07 Q: Sir, how do you go about...

K: Don't go about.
提问者:先生,你是如何去处理……

克:不需要去处理。
24:13 Q: No, I am talking about the organic causes like say, I have cancer, suppose, and I am dying... 提问者:不是,我说的是那些机体组织疾病的原因,比如说: 我得了癌症——假设我得了癌症,我快要死了
24:18 K: Wait sir, you are not dying, you are sitting there. Don't bring in the theories – just look, listen, just listen. You see, we become theoretical immediately. That is not playing a game. You have the ball in front of you, you can't say well, let's talk about the sun or the moon or death or this or that. Forgive me, sir. 克:等一下,先生,你还没有死,你正好好地坐在那里。 不要只是做一些理论假设——只需要去看,去聆听,只需要去听。 你瞧,我们会立即去把它理论化。 这就不是在玩游戏了。 那个球已经到你面前了,你可不能说:好吧, 让我们来谈谈太阳、月亮或者死亡, 谈谈这个或那个。 请原谅我这么说,先生。
24:50 So is it possible to have a brain that has no problems but can answer problems? Because I have problems. Now, is that possible, because as long as you have problems you must have the feeling that you must resolve them and if you can't resolve them, you feel guilty. And so we keep this going. Then others come and help us and the whole thing begins again in a different form. 所以,我们是否可能拥有一个 没有问题但却可以去回答问题的大脑? 因为我有着那些问题。 你看,这可能吗? 因为只要你还是有着问题, 你就必然会觉得自己必须要去解决掉它们, 而如果你无法解决它们的话,你便会有负罪感了。 于是我们便把负罪感维持延续下去了。 然后其他人就会过来帮助我们, 然后整件事情又再次开始了——只不过是换了一种形式。
25:36 And another thing arises out of this question: why do we seek help? Are you trying to seek help from the speaker? Let's be a little honest about it. Are you trying to seek help from him? And he says sorry, I am not helping you. That is a terrible thing to ask the help of another psychologically, for subjective states. We have asked help for thousands of years, – God, the priest, and the cultivation of the priesthood, and then the psychologists, we want leaders. Physically they will tell you how to live, how to exercise, what to eat, how to comb your hair, etc. So why do we ask for help at all? You understand the question? Listen to the question, which is, go into the mechanism of guilt, its relation to the ego, and we said don't separate the two, because guilt is part of the ego, part of the me, it is not separate. Therefore it is not something related to. It is there. So we have understood that, back and forth. Then we said, why do we have problems. Problems exist from childhood, from the child who goes to the school. He is educated to have problems. So his whole life becomes a problem depression, anxiety, and so on, and I go and ask another. Which means I am asking help from another. And the other is myself. He has his problems. He gets depressed, he feels lonely, and he wants to be a guru, but poor chap, he can't. Right? He is burning with his own importance or with his own knowledge, etc. So the other is you. I wonder if you realise this. Therefore what is the good of asking help? 而从这个问题之中,又产生出了另一个问题: 为什么我们要寻求帮助? 你是否试图从演讲者这里寻得一些帮助? 让我们稍微坦诚一点吧。 你是否试图从他那里寻求帮助? 而他却说:很抱歉,我没有在帮你。 向他人寻求心理上的帮助, 来达到个人主观的状态,这是一件很可怕的事情, 我们已经寻求这样的帮助有成千上万年了, ——上帝的帮助, 牧师的帮助, 培养教士身份, 还有那些心理学家,我们想要领袖。 从外在方面来说,他们会告诉你如何生活,如何去锻炼, 要吃些什么, 如何给自己梳头,等等这些。 所以,我们究竟为什么要寻求帮助? 你明白这个问题吗?请聆听这个问题: 也就是,去探究负罪感的过程, 以及它和自我的关系, 而我们说:不要将这两者分开, 因为负罪感就是自我的一部分, 就是“我”的一部分,它们并不是分离的。 因此它们并不是两个有关系的东西。 它就在那里。 所以我们已经理解了这一点——通过来来回回。 然后我们问:为什么我们会有问题? 问题从我们小时候起就存在了, 从小时候起,当孩子去学校以后, 他便被教育着而获得了各种问题。 于是他整个的生活便成了一个问题, 沮丧抑郁、焦虑,等等, 于是我去别人那里询问解决办法。 这意味着,我正在从别人那里寻求帮助。 然而“别人”就是我自己。 他也有着他自己的问题。 他也会沮丧抑郁,他也会感到孤独, 他想要成为一名古鲁,但这个可怜的小伙子,他做不了古鲁。 对吧? 他自命不凡, 以自己的知识为傲,等等这些。 所以“别人”就是你。 我不知道你们是否意识到了这一点。 所以寻求帮助又有什么用呢?
28:52 So we discover in the investigation or exploring into the question, and the question is beginning to answer all this, not the speaker invented it. It is like a map – unfold it, you look at the whole of the map, not a particular part of the map. But when you look at the map, we want to go to a particular town or road, but we don't take the whole thing in. If you take the whole thing in and then come to the point, that is a different way of looking at it. Right? Are we together in this? Right. 因此我们发现了 在探究或探索问题的过程中,我们发现 那个问题本身会开始回答一切的疑问, 而不是演讲者凭空造出了那个答案。 这就像是一张地图——你打开了它,看到了地图的全貌, 而不是地图上的某一个地点。 然而当你们看着这张地图时, 我们想要去到某个特定的城镇或某条道路, 我们并不会去看地图上所有的地点。 而如果你能纵览地图的全貌,然后再前往那个地点, 那你就会有一种完全不同的视角了。 对吗?我们都理解它了吗? 很好。
29:39 Q: There is another form of guilt that is not connected with the childhood directly when you injure somebody, when you do an injustice. That is another kind of guilt that is a reality. 提问者:还存在着另一种形式的负罪感, 它并不是直接和童年相关联的, 当你伤害了某人,当你做了不义之事后, 你会有另一种形式的负罪感,这也是一个事实。
29:53 K: I can't hear you, Doctor Weininger. 克:我听不见你的话,魏宁格博士。
29:58 Q: There is another kind of guilt that is due to an injury, an injustice to another person. 提问者:存在着另一种负罪感,它是由于伤害别人, 对别人做不义之事而引起的。
30:04 K: Ah yes, of course. You hit me, and I can't hit you back, but I feel – etc. – include all that. Don't take various parts and put them together. The parts don't make the whole. If you see the whole, you can see the parts, and that is the importance of a questioning. And if you look at the question, not back and forth and add, add, the question itself covers the whole field. Right? Is this clear so far? Can we go to the next question? 克:啊,是的,当然了。 你打了我,但我却不能回击你, 可我会觉得……你知道的,等等这些,它们都是包含其中的。 不要去拿起各种不同的部分,然后把它们拼凑在一起。 那些部分是无法组成整体的。 而如果你看到了整体,你便可以看到各个部分了, 这就是提问的重要之处。 要是你能观察那个问题,而不是反反复复,添加再添加, 那么问题本身就会涵盖所有的相关领域。 对吧?现在清楚了吧? 我们可以继续下一个问题吗?
30:49 Q: Would the root of guilt then be the difference between, division between what actually is and what you would like, and the proposed ideal? 提问者:负罪感的根源是不是因为那种不同 ——即事实现状和你想要成为样子 以及你被建议的理想之间的分裂?
31:03 K: Are you asking, sir, can we look at a fact and not create out of the fact an ideal, an idea?

Q: Yes.
克:先生,你是不是在问: 我们能否观察事实 而不从那个事实中创造出某个理想或想法?提问者:是的。
31:15 K: Now, just listen to the question. That is, there is the fact, and the ideal, or the ideal separate from the fact. Right? That is what he is asking. There is war, and the ideal is not to have war, peace. Right? The fact is war. Why do you create the ideal out of it? The idea. So the idea is not the fact. So can we remain with the fact and not have ideals and theories about the war? You kill me during the war, you kill me – that is a fact. You are encouraged, patriotism, all the rest of it – you kill me. But there are those people who have ideas about war, which is, you must not kill, you must be sane, you must be rational, you must be kind, you must be generous, but those are all meaningless. Actually you are killing me. So let's remain with the fact and look at the fact, then you can do something about it. Right? Let's move to the next. Will you take a breather? 克:现在,请你听好这个问题。 也就是说,存在着某个事实, 以及理想, 或者说那个理想与事实是分离的。 对吧?这就是他在问的东西。 我们有着战争, 而我们的理想是不要有战争,要和平。 对吧?事实就是那些战争。 所以为什么你要从事实之中创造出某个理想、 某个想法呢? 那个想法并非事实。 所以我们能否与事实共存, 而不是去获得那些关于战争的理想和理论? 你在战争中杀死了我, 你杀死了我——这就是事实。 你或是被鼓励去杀人,你或是出于爱国心,等等这些——但事实就是你杀了我。 但是有些人,他们会有一些关于战争的想法, 比如说,你绝不能去杀人,你必须要理智, 你必须要理性,你必须要仁慈,你必须要宽宏大量, 但是这一切都是毫无意义的。 因为事实上你正在杀死我。 所以,让我们与事实在一起,去看看那个事实, 然后你便可以对它做些什么了。 对吧? 让我们来看看下一个问题吧。 你们要不要歇口气?
32:51 2nd Question: Evolution has brought about certain physical differences in racial groups. Are there also parallel psychological differences born into an infant of a particular race, or are they only acquired conditioning? And if the conditioning is inherited, can it really be changed or left behind? (第二个问题):人类的进化已经带来了 不同种族之间的某些身体上的差异。 那么类似的,是否也存在那种 特定种族与生俱来的心理上的差异? 还是说那些心理上的差异只是后天形成的局限? 而如果那种局限是遗传继承而来的, 我们真的能够改变它,或抛弃它吗?
33:27 It is a long question, so if you don't mind, I will read it again. Evolution has brought about certain physical differences in racial groups. Are there also parallel psychological differences born into an infant of a particular race, or are they only acquired conditioning? And if the conditioning is inherited, can it really be changed or left behind? Have you understood the question? 这个问题很长, 所以要是你们不介意的话,让我再来读一遍吧。 人类的进化已经带来了不同种族之间的 某些身体上的差异。 那么类似的,是否也存在那种特定种族与生俱来的 心理上的差异? 还是说那些心理上的差异只是后天形成的局限? 而如果那种局限是遗传继承而来的, 我们真的能够改变它,或抛弃它吗? 你明白这个问题了吗?
34:11 Q: Yes. 提问者:明白了。
34:17 K: Suppose I was born in China, with yellow skin, slanted eyes – I am just observing, please, I am not criticising. I am not saying the other is beautiful, the other is not. I am born in China, with certain peculiar physiological, biological facts – short, not so pinkish skin, which is fashionable, and slanted eyes and so on. That is a physical fact. The questioner asks, does that physical fact affect the psyche of the Chinese. You understand? Right? We are together in this? Don't say afterwards, I am not clear. That is, I am born in China, I am a Chinese, and I have certain physical and biological strains: face, limbs, hands, walk, and I can bear a great deal of burden and so on – physical burden. Does that outward biological, physiological fact affect the psyche, the structure of the psyche, does the racial conditioning affect the psyche? That is the question. 克:假如我生在中国, 有着黄色的皮肤, 长着丹凤眼 ——请注意,我只是在观察,我并没有在批评谁。 我并没有在说某某人是漂亮的,某某人不漂亮。 我出生在中国, 我有着某些特别的生理学或生物学上的特征 ——人比较矮, 也没有那么浅粉色的皮肤 ——现在很流行这种肤色, 我长着丹凤眼,等等。 这是身体上的特征。 而提问者问: 这种身体的特征 是否会影响中国人的内心(psyche)? 你明白了吗? 对吗?我们都理解它了吗? 不要之后再说:我不是很清楚。 也就是说,我生在中国, 我是一个中国人, 我有着某些身体上和生物学上的种族特征: 我的脸、我的四肢、我的手、我走路的方式, 我可以背负很重的东西, 等等——物质上的重担。 那么这种外在的生物学上的、生理上的特征 它会影响内心吗? 那种心理上的结构, 种族的生理局限 会影响内心吗? 就是这个问题。
36:29 I don't know theoretically, but suppose I am born in India – which comes to the same thing, they have different colour, they are much more subtle, much more nervous, much more clever – sorry, excuse me – much more theoretical, much more analytical, but they don't go beyond that. They are all up here, some of them. And they can argue back and forth, argue the hinds off a donkey. And go on and on and on and on. So, all that capacity, all that intellectual training of 3, 5000 years, does that affect the psyche? Does it affect the conditioning? I am born black in this country, with all the peculiar physical phenomena, and does that outward structure of the organism affect the inner? And do I inherit the physical, which will affect the psyche? You understand? Are we together in this? Is the psyche, the subjective state, is it different from the rest of mankind? You are white, you are tall, you can do certain things, and I born in India with a different biological and physiological conditioning, will that affect the psyche? Don't you suffer, I suffer? Don't you go through various forms of fear? Which I do, whether I live in China, here, or black, white, purple, whatever it is, and does the child inherit the biological conditioning? You are following all this? I hope you listen to the question. Then you can answer the question if you really listen to the question. The questioner says, does the physical conditioning shape the psyche. Does it condition the childhood racially? If you treat me, born in this country as black, you would slightly push me aside, rather condemn me or look down upon me. And I feel inferior, guilty – follow all this – guilty, so you exploit me. This is happening the world over, this is not something only limited to this country. In India, there is a great deal of colour prejudice. The more light you are the better you are. They would like to marry a girl or a boy who is light-skinned. You follow? This is the same the world over. It sounds funny and rather silly, but it is a fact. And the questioner says, does that racial biological condition affect the child, and that child as it grows up becomes a biological exception. 理论上来说,我不知道中国人的情况, 但假如我生在印度 ——这其实是一回事,印度人也有着不同的肤色, 他们更加敏感,更加神经质, 更加的聪明——对不起,请原谅我这么说—— 更加擅长理论, 更加擅长分析, 但他们却无法超越那个层次。 他们都只是达到了这里(指头脑)——他们中的一些人。 他们可以反复来回地争论不休, 口若悬河地争论。 等等等等。 所以,所有这些能力, 所有这些三千或五千年以来的智力上的培养训练, 它们会影响内心吗? 它会影响人类的局限吗? 我出生在这个国家,我是个黑人, 我有着所有那些特殊的身体上的特征迹象, 而这种外在的有机体的构成,它会影响内在吗? 是不是说我遗传继承了那些身体上的特征, 它们就会影响到我的内心? 你明白了吗?我们是否都理解了这一点? 我们的内心,那种个人主观的状态, 它和其他人类是否有所不同? 你是白人,你很高,你可以做某些事情, 而我出生在印度, 我有着不同的生物学上的、生理上的局限性, 那么它会影响到我的内心吗? 我会受苦,你不也是会受苦吗? 你难道没有经历过各种恐惧吗? 就像我会经历恐惧一样,不管我是生活在中国,生活在这里, 不管我是黑皮肤、白皮肤、紫色的皮肤、无论什么肤色, 孩子会遗传继承生物学上的特征局限吗? 你们都理解这些了吗? 我希望你们都在聆听这个问题。 那样你们才可以去回答问题 ——如果你真正聆听了这个问题的话。 提问者说: 身体上的特征局限是否会塑造改变内心? 人种的不同特征是否会局限我们的童年? 如果我出生在这个国家,是个黑人,那么你会怎么对待我, 你会稍微有点排挤我, 你会指责我,或者看不起我。 于是我就会感到低人一等,有罪恶感 ——请跟上所有这些——那种罪恶感,所以你剥削了我。 这就是全世界正在发生的事情, 这并不是某些只发生在这个国家的事情。 在印度,那里有着极大的肤色偏见。 你的肤色越浅,你就越好。 所以人们都想要娶一个浅色皮肤的女孩,或者嫁给一个浅色皮肤的男孩。 你们明白了吗?全世界的情况都是一样的。 这听起来很好笑,而且相当愚蠢,但这就是事实。 而提问者说, 那种种族的、生物学上的特征局限 是否会影响孩子, 使得他长大成人以后,会变成一种生物学上的特例。
41:07 I should think not. This isn't a theory, I have watched this game being played all over the world. That is, those who consider themselves racially superior because they are light-skinned or whatever it is, then they proceed to condition the other fellows who are not. And then they think it is a racial inheritance, and feel guilty and all the rest of it. But as one observes these things very closely, without studying, go into books and all that, when one travels, even living in this country, one observes all this. And one sees fundamentally we are the same, psychologically – you suffer, I suffer, the black, the white, all that. We suffer, we have agonies, we feel guilty, we feel anxious, insecure, confused, depressed, etc. – like you. But we don't recognise that because we are so inhuman. We are alike psychologically. That means – please listen – that means you are the entire humanity. Because you suffer, you go through agonies – I do, he does, the Chinese, the Russians and so on. So you are the entire humanity. That is a tremendous realisation. Not individual American with all the rest of it. This is not a theory. It is not an ideal, something utopian. It is an actual daily fact. Are we playing the game? It is an actual daily fact. 我认为应该不会。 这不是一个理论, 我已经看过了这个全世界都在玩的游戏。 也就是,有些人认为自己有着种族上的优越性, 因为他们有着浅色的皮肤,或者无论什么, 于是他们便开始去制约其他没有浅色皮肤的同伴。 于是那些没有浅色皮肤的人认为这是一种种族的遗传, 并因此有了负罪感,等等这些。 但是当你非常密切亲近地去观察这些事情 ——不是去学习理论知识,去看那些书籍,等等, 当你旅行世界各地,哪怕只是生活在这个国家, 你都可以观察到这一切。 你会看到,从根本上来说,我们在心理上都是一样的 ——你会受苦,我也会受苦,不管是黑人、白人,等等。 我们都会受苦,我们都备受痛苦的折磨, 我们都会有负罪感,我们都会感到焦虑、不安全、困惑、 沮丧压抑、等等——就像你一样。 然而我们却不承认这一点, 因为我们是如此的不人道。 我们在心理上都是相似的。 那意味着——请听好—— 那意味着你就是全人类。 因为你会受苦,你会经历痛苦折磨 ——我也是如此,他也是如此, 中国人、俄罗斯人等等,都一样。 所以你就是全人类。 这是一个惊人的了悟。 并不是说你是一个美国人及其所包含的一切内容。 这并不是一个理论。 它并不是一个理想,某种乌托邦的东西。 它是日常生活中千真万确的事实。 我们正在玩这个游戏吗?它是日常生活中千真万确的事实。
43:32 Q: You are saying the conditioning only goes so deep. 提问者:你说(身体的)特征局限并没有什么深度。
43:38 K: Yes, conditioning is only skin deep. If you like to put it that way. Biological conditioning. There are all kinds of other forms of conditioning, which is not related to race, which is the conditioning of the psyche. In it is desire to be secure – I am an American, I feel safe. 克:是的,(身体)的特征局限都是表面的东西。 如果你喜欢这么说的话,那些生物学上的特征局限。 我们还有各种其他形式的局限, 它们和人种并没有什么关系, 也就是那种心理上的局限。 在它之中就有着想要安全的渴望——我是一个美国人,我感到很安全。
44:07 Q: That is still not...

K: Please, sir. Or British or French, you know the whole thing. And the other question is, can this psychological conditioning or inherited conditioning, in the sense my parents tell me – I have been told as a boy when I first came to England, 'You are an Indian, don't look over the hedge.' You understand? Planted already, guilt. Fortunately I never played that kind of game. So, is it possible to leave behind or be free of this psychological conditioning? You understand? Obviously if one gives one's attention to it, not analytically but just observes. As you observe in a mirror your face you observe your reactions, without any distortion. And that can only be done in a relationship with another. Relationship then becomes the mirror in which you see yourself exactly as you are. And if you like to keep that image, keep it. If you don't like it, break it. It isn't something tremendously arduous or difficult. We like to make it, because in our deeper sense we are feeling guilty, we must do this and we must do that, we all must be noble, courageous.
提问者:这并不完全……

克:拜托,先生。 或者英国人,或者法国人,你知道所有这些东西。 而另一个问题就是, 这种心理上的局限 或者遗传继承而来的局限, 它的意思就是,我的父母告诉我 ——当我第一次来到英国,那时我还是个孩子,他们告诉我说: “你是一个印度人,有些事情你是不能做的。” 你明白了吗?这就已经种下了那种罪恶感。 幸运的是,我从来没有去玩过这种游戏。 所以,我们是否可能抛弃 或者摆脱掉这种心理上的局限? 你理解了吗? 很显然是可以的,如果你可以对它保持关注的话, 不是去分析,而只是去观察它。 就像你在镜子中观察你的脸,你也这样去观察你的各种反应, 没有任何的扭曲。 而只有在你和他人的关系中,你才能去做这件事。 那时关系就成了一面镜子, 在其中你可以如实地看到你自己。 然后,如果你想要保持那个形象,那就保持它。 如果你不喜欢这个形象,那就打破它。 它并不是一件极其费力或困难的事情。 只是我们喜欢把它变得费力困难, 因为在我们的内心深处,我们有负罪感, 我们必须这样做,我们必须那样做, 我们都必须要成为高尚的、勇敢的人。
46:20 So that question, if we come to it without any prejudice, approach it without any conclusion, then the question covers a tremendous lot. You understand? Can we go on to the next question?

Q: Yes.
所以,对于那个问题, 如果我们毫无偏见地来面对它, 不带任何定论地来处理它, 那么那个问题本身就会包含大量的内容了。 你理解了吗? 我们可以回答下一个问题了吗?提问者:可以。
46:49 K: Have I answered this question, my lady – whoever put it? Right. Not answered it, you have resolved it. 克:尊敬的女士——那位提问的女士,我是否已经回答了你的问题? 很好。 不是回答了它,是你已经解决了这个问题。
47:09 3rd Question: It is said that the income from your books does not go to you personally. May one ask how you live, sir? (第三个问题):据说你所著书籍的收入 并没有归属于你个人。 我是否可以问下:你是靠什么过活的,先生?
47:24 It is said that the income from your books does not go to you personally. May one ask how you live, sir? 据说你所著书籍的收入 并没有归属于你个人。 我是否可以问下:你是靠什么过活的,先生?
47:35 Are you really interested in this? I will answer it, it is very simple. Are you really concerned about this question? 你们真的对这个有兴趣吗? 我可以来回答它,答案也很简单。 你们真的关心这个问题吗?
47:49 Q: No, not really. Skip it. 听众:不,我们不关心。跳过这个问题吧。
47:52 K: As it is put there, let's answer it, let's go into it. Personally, I have no money. I don't want it. I have been offered castles, estates. I have been asked to go into the cinemas – they have offered me a great deal of money. I have no money. So what has happened is, to put it very, very, very simply, when I go to India, the Foundation there looks after me. For my clothes, laundry, food, doctor, if I am ill, and the travels there – I travel all over India. And I go to Europe, the European Foundation, that is the English Foundation plus France and so on, they support K. And when I come here they do exactly the same thing. It is very simple. Is that answered? 克:既然都已经问了,还是回答下吧,让我们来看看这个问题。 我个人并没有什么钱。我也不想要钱。 有人曾经送给我城堡、地产。 有人曾经请我去演电影 ——他们出价很高。 但我并没有钱。 所以,真实的情况就是,非常非常简单地来说一下吧, 当我去印度,印度的基金会会负责照料我的一切。 我的衣服、洗衣活、食物、 医生——如果我病了的话, 以及在那里的旅行费用——我走遍了整个印度。 而当我去欧洲的时候,欧洲的基金会, 也就是英国的基金会以及法国的基金会,等等, 它们会照顾K(指自己)。 而当我来到这里(美国),情况也是如此。 非常简单,这回答可以吗?
49:04 Q: Yes.

K: Right. No, please.
提问者:可以。

克:很好。 别这样,请别鼓掌。
49:11 4th Question: Why do you say there is no psychological evolution? (第四个问题):为什么你说并不存在心理上的进化?
49:17 Why do you say there is no psychological evolution? 为什么你说并不存在心理上的进化?
49:24 This is really a very serious question. Not as the previous one, but this is a very serious question. 这真的是一个非常严肃的问题。 和刚才那个问题不一样,这是一个很严肃的问题。
49:38 What do we mean by evolution? I am asking, you can't verbally answer it, because there are too many, but you must answer it. What do you mean by evolution? The oak tree here, it drops its acorn, out of that grows the tree. That is to evolve, to grow, to multiply. Right? And also we have evolved from the most ancient of times till what we are now – biologically, organically. This has taken us 2 or 3 million years psychologically to grow into what we are now. This is obvious. Do we play the game, you are playing the game? It is in your court. 我们所说的“进化”是什么意思? 我在问你们, 你们不可能口头上来回答它,因为这里人太多了, 但你还是必须要回答它。 你所说的“进化”是什么意思? 这里有一棵橡树, 树上掉落下橡子, 然后橡子会长成一棵大树。 这就是发展进化,就是成长, 就是繁殖。对吧? 同样的,我们也从远古时代一路进化发展到了 我们现在的样子——这里指的是生物学上的、机体组织的进化。 我们花了两三百万年的时间, 在心理上,我们发展成长到了我们现在的样子。 这是显而易见的。 我们正在玩这个游戏吗?你在玩这个游戏吗? 现在球到了你的半场了。
50:52 So, we have evolved not only biologically but also psychologically, inwardly, subjectively. We can't grow a third arm or a fourth arm. We can't – we have probably biologically reached the limit. But psychologically, subjectively we think we can grow, we can become something more noble, more courageous, less violent, less brutal, less cruelty – you follow? To us, the idea of psychological growth is tremendously important. Otherwise the ego has no meaning. I don't know if you follow this. I meditate in order to become. I breathe in order to keep the brain quiet, I am becoming all the time. Either in the business world, in the world of technology, in the world of skill, I am always becoming something better. I am a better carpenter than I was two years ago, better electrician, better chemist, better this and better that. And I apply the same movement to the psyche. I don't know if you are following all this. That is, I am going to become something, psychologically. You are following this? Is that a fact? No, please, this is very important because if you really understand this, go into it, our whole life changes. You understand? 所以,我们不仅在生物学意义上发展进化了, 在心理上、内心上、主观上,我们也发展成长了。 我们不可能长出第三条手臂或第四条手臂。 这是不可能的——也许从生物学角度来说,我们已经进化到了一个极限。 但是心理上、主观上, 我们认为我们还可以成长, 我们可以改进自己, 变得更加高尚、更加勇敢, 变得不那么暴力、野蛮和残忍——你明白了吗? 对我们来说,那种心理上成长的观点 是极其重要的。 否则的话,自我就失去意义了。 我不知道你们是否理解了它。 我之所以冥想,是为了去变成什么。 我调息是为了让大脑保持安静, 我一直都在不断地去变成什么。 不管是在生意场上, 还是在科技的世界, 或者在技术的领域,我总是在努力去变得更好。 和两年前的我相比,现在的我是一个更好的木匠, 或者更好的电工、更好的化学家,更好的这个或那个。 然后我将同样的运动应用在了心理领域。 我不知道你们是否都理解了这些。 也就是说,我将要去变成某个东西——某种心理领域的事物。 你们跟上了吗? 但这种“变成”是一个事实吗? 不,请注意,这是非常重要的,因为 如果你真正地理解了这点,深入探究了它, 那么我们的整个生活就会改变。 你理解了吗?
53:09 Is good the enemy of the better? Do you understand my question?

Q: No.
“好(good)”,它是 “更好(better)”的敌人吗? 你明白我的问题吗?听众:不明白。
53:22 K: Good, with all its meaning – we will go into it – and I will be better, I will be good or I am good, but I will be better tomorrow. Better good. So the better is the enemy of the good. I don't if you are following this. I will go into this. So is there psychological evolution? Or what I am today, I will be tomorrow. You understand? We have evolved psychologically 5 to 3000 years – more, much more, blimey what am I talking about – 8000 years, 10,000 years if you have gone into it. I won't go into the ancient movement of mankind. And people who have studied this have told me therefore I will only repeat something they have told me, which you can find out. But I am questioning, we are questioning whether there is the psychic growth at all, becoming better. And if it is that we are through time, a million years, 50,000 years, we have become better, we are much more evolved – is that a fact? 克:我是“好”的,好有很多的含义——我们将会来探究它—— 然后我还会变得“更好”, 我将会变好,或者我已经很好了, 但是,明天我将会变得“更好”。 比“好”更好。 所以,“更好”是“好”的敌人。 我不知道你们是否理解了它。 让我来解释下它吧。 所以,是否存在心理上的进化? 还是说,我今天是什么样子的,明天我仍将会是这样。 你明白了吗? 我们已经在心理上发展进化了三千至五千年 ——是更多,远远更多的时间,天哪,我都说了些什么—— 八千年,一万年——如果你去研究下它的话。 我就不去研究人类远古时代的活动了。 因为那些研究过这个的人已经告诉了我结论, 因此我只需要把他们告诉我的东西重复下就行了, 你可以自己去发现这一点。 但我在质疑,我们在质疑, 究竟是否存在心理上的成长, 是否存在“变得更好”这回事? 而如果说,我们经历漫长的岁月, 在一百万年,五万年之后, 我们变得更好了,我们得到了极大的进化 ——那么事实真的如此吗?
55:22 K: Answer it.

Q: I think we...
克:请回答它。听众:我认为我们
55:26 K: If you all talk, madame, it is impossible – you will ask, he will ask, but just think, look at it, and then we will communicate, not only verbally, then non-verbally. Have I as a human being who have lived on this earth, 2 or 3 million years ago or 50,000 years ago, or even 8000 years ago, have I progressed? Evolved. 克:女士们,如果你们都要说话,这是不可能的 ——你也问,他也问, 只需要去思考,去观察它,然后我们便可以交流了, 不只是口头上交流,也可以非口头地交流。 我作为人类的一员, 我已经在这个地球上生活了 两三百万年,或者五万年, 或者哪怕只是八千年, 那么我进步了吗? 我进化了吗?
56:08 Have you, psychologically? Aren't you as you were at the beginning? More or less. Less than more, but more or less. Brutal, violent, aggressive, insecure, wanting to kill for your tribe, for your God, for your country, it has existed, the same phenomena, from the beginning of time. There you clubbed a man or a woman. Then there was the archery. Then there was the simple gun. Now we have evolved to have neutron bombs. Think, tremendous progress. No sir, don't laugh. Look at it carefully. But behind the archer, behind the gun, the man behind the gun, and the man who is up at 50,000 feet dropping a neutron bomb, the man is the same. Right? This is a fact. He may put a flag on the moon and he says, it is my country that is represented up there. 你们进化了吗 ——从心理上来说? 你们难道不是和你们最初的时候一样吗? 或多或少是一样的。 或少或多,但多多少少是一样的。 野蛮、暴力、侵略好斗、 没有安全感, 愿意为你的部落,为你的神明,为你的国家而去杀人, 这是同一回事,这些事情 从最早的时候开始就一直存在着。 最初,你们用棍棒打男人或女人。 然后你们用弓箭射死别人。 接着你们用简单的枪械杀人。 而现在,我们已经发展进化到了中子弹。 想想吧,这惊人的进步。 不,先生,请别笑。认真仔细地来看看它。 但是,在弓箭背后, 在那把枪背后,枪后面的那个人, 以及那个在五万英尺高空 扔下中子弹的人, 那个人还是一样的。 对吧?这是一个事实。 某个人也许会在月球上插一面旗帜, 然后他说:这是我的国家,那面旗帜就表明了这一点。
57:54 No, look at it, carefully consider all this. I am not asking you to believe what I am saying. Look at it. So one asks, is there psychological growth, or psychological ending – not growth, becoming something. You understand what I am saying?

Q: Yes.
不,请你去观察它,仔细小心地去思考这一切。 我并没有叫你们相信我所说的话。 只是去看它。 所以我们问:是否存在心理上的成长, 还是说只存在心理上的结束? 不是成长,不是去变成什么。 你们明白我所说的吗?听众:明白了。
58:29 K: If I don't end violence today, that violence has existed a million years ago in the human being, then if I don't leave that violence behind or drop it or radically bring about a mutation, I will be violent tomorrow. This is a fact. So, is there a progress, development of the psyche as evolution? For me personally there isn't. For me – don't accept it. I am playing, I am returning the ball to you. 克:如果我今天没有结束暴力, 那种暴力早在一百万年以前就存在于 人类身上了, 所以如果我不能离开那种暴力,不能丢弃它, 或者为其带来一种根本彻底的突变, 那么明天我依然还会是暴力的。 这是一个事实。 所以,是否存在那种心理上进步或发展的 所谓的“进化”呢? 在我个人看来,并不存在。 在我看来——请不要接受这一点。 我正在玩游戏,现在我把球打回给你了。
59:23 So the question then remains, I am what I am at present. Right? I have been what I have been, I am what I have been. I am all the memories – racial, religious, educational, travelling, all that is the past, which is me. Right? My experience, my desire to be a great man, my desire to be important, my desire to be a guru, my desire to be somebody – I am not, but I am just saying – all that is the past, which is me. If I don't drop all that, I will be tomorrow exactly the same thing. From this statement arises a question: is that possible? You understand? Is it possible to let go all that? Not through effort, not through determination, desire, that becomes again another achievement. Can all that be dropped? Sir, it is in your court. Don't wait for me to answer it. It is in your court. You are asking that question. Realising you are the background. You are all that accumulated racial, religious, economic, scientific, political – all that is your conditioning of the psyche. You have been programmed for 2000 years to be Christians. And the others are trained in their own way. The other day somebody said they saw a statue of the Buddha sitting, you know, you have seen statues of Buddha. And somebody said, what is the good of that man sitting like that all day long? It was put by a Christian. Careful, listen to it. There was somebody else beside me said, what is the point of that man hanging on that cross all day? No, don't laugh, please look at all this! 所以剩下的问题就是,我就是我现在的样子。 对吧? 我一直都是我过去的样子,我就是我过去的样子。 我就是所有那些记忆——种族的记忆、 宗教的记忆、教育的记忆、旅行经历的记忆, 所有这些都是过去——也就是我。 对吧? 我的经验,我渴望成为一个伟大的人, 我渴望变得至关重要, 我渴望成为一名古鲁, 我渴望成为某号人物——我本人并不渴望,我只是这么说说—— 所有这些都是过去——也就是我。 而如果我不丢弃掉所有这些东西,我明天还是会和现在一模一样。 从这番论述中就产生出了一个问题:我们是否可能 你理解了吗? 我们是否可能舍弃所有这些东西? 不是通过努力, 不是通过决心、渴望, 因为那会再次变成另一种成就。 我们能丢弃掉所有这些东西吗? 先生,现在球在你的半场了。不要等待我来回答它。 球在你那里了。 你正在问这个问题。 你意识到了你就是那个背景。 你就是所有那些积累起来的种族的、宗教的、经济的、 科学的、 政治的记忆 ——所有这一切就是你心理上的局限。 你们作为基督教徒已经被程序化了两千年。 而其他人则接受了他们特有的培养训练。 前几天,有人说 他们看见了一尊佛陀的雕像, 佛陀坐在那里,你知道的,你们应该都见过佛陀的雕像。 然后有人说:那个家伙整天那样子坐着 有什么好处呢? 这个问题是一个基督教徒问的。 请注意,听好了。 然后我旁边有个人,他说: 那么那个人(耶稣)整天挂在十字架上又有什么意义呢? 不,请不要笑,请看看这一切!
1:02:34 According to our prejudice, conditioning we act, think, feel. If I am a Buddhist, if you said that to me, I would be terribly upset. I will get angry, violent, because I worship that figure. But if I was a Christian and you said, what is the point of that man hanging on that wall? You follow? It shocks you, must shock you. So, can we look at all this without a single shadow of prejudice? You understand? Single shadow of opinion, conditioning, so that we realise that each person creates the image which he worships. 我们根据自己的偏见和局限而去行动、思考和感受。 如果我是一个佛教徒,如果你对我说这样的话, 我会感到非常不高兴。 我会生气,变得暴力起来, 因为我崇拜那个人物。 但如果我是一个基督教徒,而你对我说: 那家伙挂在那个墙壁一样的东西上有什么意义呢? 你理解了吗?这会让你感到震惊,它一定会震惊你。 所以,我们能否观察这一切 而没有任何偏见的阴影? 你们明白了吗? 没有丝毫个人观点和局限的阴影, 所以,我们明白了 是每一个人自己创造出了他所崇拜的偶像。
1:03:34 There was a man we used to know many, many, many years ago. He was walking along the beach, and picked up a branch, a piece of stick that long, and it had the shape of a human form. He brought it home – this is a fact – and put it on the mantelpiece. And one day he put a flower to it. And after several days he began to put a garland round it, worship it – you follow? Human beings create their own images out of their own conditioning. So, is there psychological evolution at all, or is there only an ending, not becoming? That is, the ending of violence. I am taking that as an example. Ending violence completely – not tomorrow, now. Understanding the whole implication of violence: aggressiveness, ambition, part of the feeling of guilt and I am not wanting to be – you follow? This whole concept of growth, psychological growth. Of course the baby grows into an adult and old age and pops off. That is so. That is one irremediable fact, that we are all going to end up in the grave or be incinerated. So, one has to look at this question and ask the question of ourselves and find out the truth of it, not just say, yes, I think so, or not think so, but carry on day after day. 很多很多年以前,我们曾经认识一个人, 这个人漫步在海滩, 然后他捡起了一根树枝, 这根树枝有手杖那么长, 而树枝的形状就像是一个人。 然后他将树枝带回了家里——这是真人真事—— 他把它放在壁炉台上。 有一天,他在树枝上放了一朵花。 然后过了几天之后,他开始将花环套在树枝上, 他开始崇拜它了——你们明白了吧? 人类已经经由他们自身的局限 而创造出了他们自己的偶像。 所以,究竟是否存在心理上的进化呢? 还是说只存在着结束, 而没有“变成”? 也就是说,结束那种暴力。 我只是拿它来举个例子。 彻底地结束暴力 ——不是在明天结束它,而是在此刻。 去了解暴力全部的暗示含意: 包括侵略性、野心、 一部分的罪恶感,以及我不想要成为某某样子——你们跟上了吗? 这整个关于成长的概念, 这里说的是心理上的成长。 当然了,小孩子会长成大人,然后变成老年人,匆匆离开人世。 事实就是如此。 这是一个无法挽回的事实: 那就是我们最后都会走进坟墓,或者被烧成灰烬。 所以,我们必须要去看看这个问题, 然后问问自己这个问题,并发现它的真相, 而不只是说:是的,我也这么认为,或者我不这么认为, 然后每天依然还是老样子。
1:06:03 5th Question: To live peacefully needs great intelligence. Please enlarge on this. (第五个问题):你说想要和平地生活,这需要极大的智慧。 请详细谈一下这点。
1:06:13 To live peacefully needs great intelligence. Please enlarge on that. 你说想要和平地生活,这需要极大的智慧。 请详细谈一下这点。
1:06:21 The speaker said at the first talk or previously, you need great intelligence to live peacefully. And the question is – go into it, discuss it, have a dialogue about it. 演讲者曾经在第一次演讲或以前的演讲中说过, 你需要极大的智慧才能和平地生活。 而问题就是 ——请你们去探究这一点,去讨论它,去探讨它。
1:06:46 What is intelligence? I am asking you the question, you must answer it. Not all of you, but answer it to yourself. What is intelligence? The meaning of that word, Latin and so on, means – dictionary meaning – to read between the lines, to gather information, to acquire knowledge, to accumulate the experience of others and yourself, from which, knowledge. And to gather information that gives you more knowledge. That is generally the meaning of that word in the dictionary. That is the common usage. 即什么是智慧? 我正在问你这个问题,而你必须要回答它。 不是你们所有人,但是请你自己去回答它。 什么是智慧? “智慧”这个词,它在拉丁语等等中的意思是 ——词典里的意思—— 去领悟言外之意, 去收集信息, 去获得知识, 去积累他人和你自己的经验, 从这种经验中,就产生出了知识。 然后去收集那些给予你更多知识的信息。 这些就是这个词通常的含义 ——词典里的含义。 这是这个词的一般用法。
1:08:00 You need a great deal of intelligence to go to the moon. Extraordinary kind of intelligence. Thousands of people, literally thousands of people co-operating. Every detail had to be perfect. I was told 3000 or 300,000 – I have forgotten the number – who had to co-operate step by step, each one doing the perfect thing. And then they built it, etc., and go to the moon. That requires intelligence. And also to build a computer, that requires intelligence. To programme it requires intelligence. To invent communication, rapid communication between here and New York and Delhi and Moscow, that requires a tremendous kind of intelligence. That intelligence – please listen, we are playing the game – that intelligence is based on knowledge, based on experience, based on skill. Right? Which is the extraordinary intelligence of thought. Are we clear on this? The surgeon who operates, he must have very skilful hands, he must have a great deal of experience, and tremendous control of his body at that moment, giving complete attention. All that is based on experience, knowledge, memory, skill. And that is called intelligence. Right? We are together? Whether the intelligence of an idiot, or the intelligence of a very great mathematician or biologist and the archaeologist and so on, scientists, painters. So, that is limited intelligence. Isn't it? Are you sure? Don't agree, please, it is in your court, therefore you are in a game with yourself, if you see it, it is so. Because all that kind of intelligence is based on experience, knowledge, memory, thought. And thought is limited, as we went into it the other day. Because thought is based on memory, memory is the outcome of knowledge, knowledge is the outcome of experience, and experience is always limited. There is no complete experience, because there is always the experiencer saying I am experiencing. I don't know if you are following all this. And therefore as long as there is the experiencer who is the background of memory which makes him recognise the experience – I don't know if you are following – that experience is limited, therefore all thinking is limited. And out of that limitation there is a certain kind of intelligence. And that intelligence is applied to kill others, to control others, to deny freedom to others, to send them to the camp, concentration camp, which is happening now – not only the abnormal Germans, it is happening now. We don't make a lot of noise about that. We make a tremendous noise about something that happened 40 years ago. 你们需要惊人的智慧 才能够登上月球。 那种非凡的智慧。 登上月球需要数千人——实打实的数千人——通力合作。 每一个细节都必须做到完美。 有人曾告诉我说,那需要三千或三十万人 ——具体数字我已经忘了—— 一步步地合作,每一个人都需要完美地完成他负责的工作。 然后他们才能把它造出来,等等,然后乘坐它去月球。 这需要智慧。 同样的,制作一台电脑,这也需要智慧。 给它编制程序,这需要智慧。 发明通讯手段, 使得这里、纽约、德里(印度城市名)和莫斯科之间可以即时通讯, 这也需要巨大的智慧。 而那种智慧——请听好,我们正在玩这个游戏—— 那种智慧是建立在知识之上的, 它是建立在经验、技能之上的。 对吗? 它是思想非凡的智力。 我们是否清楚这一点了? 那个动手术的外科医生, 他必须拥有非常灵巧和技术娴熟的双手, 他必须拥有大量的经验, 能够在动手术的时候强力地控制自己的身体, 保持完全的专注。 而所有这些都是建立在经验、知识、记忆、技能之上的。 这就是我们所谓的“智慧”。 对吧?我们是否都理解了它 ——不管那是一个傻瓜的智慧, 还是一位伟大数学家的智慧, 或者说是生物学家和考古学家、 科学家、画家等等的智慧。 所以,这是一种有局限性的智慧。 难道不是吗? 你确定吗?请不要同意我的话, 现在球在你的半场了, 因此你要亲自来玩这个游戏, 如果你看到了这一点,你会发现它的确如此。 因为所有这类智慧 都是建立在经验、知识、记忆和思想之上的。 而思想是局限的——这个我们前几天已经探讨过了。 因为思想是建立在记忆之上的, 而记忆是知识的产物, 知识则是经验的产物, 而经验永远都是局限的。 并不存在什么完全圆满的经验, 因为总是会存在着 一个说“我正在经验它”的经验者。 我不知道你们是否理解了所有这些。 因此,只要还是存在着经验者 ——经验者就是那个记忆组成的背景, 那个背景让经验者得以识别那个经验 ——我不知道你们跟上了没—— 而那种经验是局限的,因此所有的思考都是局限的。 经由那种局限 会有某种“智慧”。 而那种智慧被用在如何去杀死别人, 如何去控制别人, 如何去扼杀他人的自由, 把他们送到拘留营去、 送到集中营里去——这样的事情如今正在发生着, 这些事情并不只是变态的德国人做过, 如今它们依然在发生着。 我们并没有去大肆议论这些事情, 但我们会大肆议论 那些四十年前发生过的事情。
1:13:02 Is there – we understand this intelligence with which we operate daily, you couldn't drive a car if you hadn't intelligence, and that intelligence is based on learning how to drive a car. Which is, you have practice, your parents or a specialist taught you how to drive a car, had to become automatic – experience, knowledge, memory, thought. That is limited. So we are asking, is there an intelligence which is not limited. Not in opposition to the limited intelligence. I wonder if you understand. Do you get this? I understand very clearly the limited intelligence – it is obvious. And we live within that narrow limited intelligence. We invent Gods out of that intelligence. We invent all the rituals, all the paraphernalia of rituals, the medieval dresses of the priests and the hierarchy of priests – all that is connived at, to impress the people, to hold them together in a particular belief, and so on, so on. All that is a form of limited intelligence. This is in the court. And you ask naturally if you are alert, aware of all this, is there an intelligence which is not limited? You only ask that question when you see, actually observe in yourself and in others, the activity of limited intelligence. Otherwise you can't ask that question. The limited intelligence, which is to kill each other. It is so obvious, so impractical. I can think of nothing more horrible than to kill animals, etc., and human beings, purposely, deliberately organised killing which is not called murder. It is called whatever you like to call it, give it a noble name, but it is still killing. And that is intelligence, part of intelligence, to invent modern machinery. You understand, sir? The material for wars. That requires a great deal of thought, a great deal of experiment, of centuries of killing each other, they have reached this point. Vaporise human beings by the million. 那么,是否存在 ——我们已经了解了这种我们日常生活中所运用的智慧, 如果你没有那种“智慧”,你就无法驾驶汽车了。 那种智慧是建立在学习如何开车之上的。 也就是,你已经练习过开车了, 你的父母或者某位老司机已经教过你如何开车了, 开车已经变成了一件机械化无意识的事情 ——经验、知识、记忆、思想。 这些都是局限的。 所以我们在问: 是否存在一种没有局限的智慧? 但它并不是局限智慧的对立面。 我不知道你们是否明白了。你理解这点了吗? 我能非常清楚地了解那种局限的智慧 ——那种智慧是显而易见的。 我们都活在这种狭隘有限的智慧之中。 我们经由这种智慧而发明了神明。 我们发明了所有那些宗教仪式,所有那些仪式的用具, 那些牧师的中世纪的服装 以及牧师们的等级制度 ——我们共谋了这一切,为了能给人们深刻的印象, 把他们团结在某种信仰周围, 等等,等等。 所有这些都是一种局限的智慧。 现在球在你们那里了。 于是你很自然地会问——如果你是警觉的,觉察到了所有这些—— 是否存在一种没有局限的智慧呢? 只有当你在你自己和他人身上 真切地观察到了 局限智慧的活动时,你才会问这个问题。 否则的话,你是无法问这个问题的。 我们那种局限的智慧,都用在自相残杀上了, 这点是如此显而易见,又如此不实际。 我想象不到还有什么比蓄意杀死动物和人类等等 更加可怕的事情, 那种刻意组织起来的屠杀——你们不会把它称为谋杀。 你们会用任何你喜欢的名称来称呼它, 给它一个高尚动听的名字,但它仍旧是屠杀。 而这就是那种智慧,那种智慧的一部分, 它发明出了现代的机械。 你明白了吗?先生? 那些用于战争的材料工具。 这些发明需要大量的思考, 大量的试验, 在彼此杀戮了无数个世纪以后,人们已经达到了如今这个地步。 可以一下子让上百万人从人间蒸发。
1:16:31 When one realises this, not intellectually or verbally, in your heart – not romantically, but fact. Then you can ask the other question, is there an intelligence which is not limited? Find out, sir. You can't have one foot in this and one foot there. You can have one foot there in that intelligence which is not limited, and then you can come to the other. But you can't go from the limited to that. I don't know if you are understanding all this. You can meditate, you can stand on your toes or on your head, do whatever you will – from the limited you can't go to the unlimited. So we are asking, not in opposition to the limited because then if you are asking from the limited to find out the other, one can never find out. So is there an unlimited intelligence? And to find that out you have to give your life to it, not just one morning sitting here. You have to give your energy, your austerity, your heart, your brain, everything to find that out. And that can exist only when there is love and compassion, nothing else. 当我们意识到了这一点, 不是思想智力上或口头上——而是内心深处意识到它, 它不是浪漫的幻想,而是一个事实。 然后你就可以问另外一个问题了: 是否存在一种没有局限的智慧? 去发现它,先生。 你不可能“脚踏两条船”。 但你可以先踏上这条船 ——即那种没有局限的智慧, 然后再踏上另一条船。 但你是无法从局限智慧的船转到没有局限的智慧的。 我不知道你有没有理解这些。 你可以去冥想,你可以踮起脚尖站立,或者去倒立, 你可以做任何你想做的事 ——然而你是无法从局限之物走向那无局限之物的。 所以我们在问这个问题, 不是把它作为局限之物的对立面, 因为如果你是从局限之物出发而提问, 想要去找到另一个事物,那么你永远也无法找到它。 所以,是否存在一种没有局限的智慧呢? 要发现它,你就必须把你的一生奉献给它, 不只是花一个早上的时间坐在这里。 你必须要付出你的精力,严于律己, 运用你的心灵、你的头脑等等一切去找到那个答案。 而只有当有了爱与慈悲时,你才能找到答案, 否则是绝不可能的。
1:18:50 Do you want to go into some other question? 你们想要再看看其他问题吗?
1:18:54 6th Question: You have large audiences the world over. What is it that all of us desire? (第六个问题):你的听众数量庞大,遍布全球。 那么我们(听你演讲)渴望的是什么呢?
1:19:04 I will repeat. You have large audiences the world over. What is it, that all of us come here and what is we want? You have large audiences and what is it we all want, we all desire, we all hope to get? Will you answer it? 我再来重复一遍。 你的听众数量庞大,遍布全球。 那么我们是为了什么而来到这里?我们想要的是什么? 你的听众数量庞大, 那么我们(来听演讲)想要的是什么?我们渴望的是什么? 我们希望获得些什么? 你们可以来回答它吗?
1:19:46 What is it – the question is put most respectfully, and humanly, which is humbly – what is it you all want? What is it you are longing for? What is it that makes people go to church, what is it you all desire? 我们想要什么? 提问者无比恭敬地、 充满人性地——也就是谦逊地——提出了这个问题: 你们想要的是什么? 你们渴望的是什么? 是什么东西促使人们前往教堂, 你们渴求的是什么?
1:20:26 Can you answer it seriously and honestly? Not one moment I want this, next moment I want that and third moment, third year something else, you know, as that is happening in this country. One thing after the other. A new latest guru comes and you all... So what is it, when you sit down quietly as you are doing now, what is it we all want? Is there a common urge, common desire, common longing? Or is it all separate, each person wanting something totally different from another? Probably one has never even put that question to oneself seriously. If you put that question really seriously, what is it? Is it happiness? And is happiness the end of life? Is it security? To be safe. To be completely safe in that freedom which you want. Safety and freedom. Security in a club, in a society, in a group, in the country, in a belief, and be free at the same time. Please look at it most seriously, for your own sake, look at it. To have a better relationship with somebody? To live with a husband, wife, whatever it is, completely without conflict? Is it that you want to be completely free of your conditioning? Or not to be afraid of death. When you look at all this, various forms of our desires, our longings, our escapes and our attachments, what is it, out of all that, we want. Somebody to lean on? I am getting old, I must have somebody I can lean on. And I live with that person happily but I can't live with others. Please assure me that person and I will get on well together for the rest of our life. You are following all this? I have complexes or barriers, conditioning – I want to get over them all. If one looks at it all, learned, even if we are, great intellectuals if we are, and romantics if we are, and so on, scientists, politicians, what is it out of our heart we want? 你能认真严肃地、诚实地来回答这个问题吗? 不是这一秒我想要这个,下一秒我又想要那个, 第三秒,第三年我又想要别的东西了,你知道的, 这样的事情正在这个国家(美国)中发生着。 不断地追逐新事物。 出来了一个最新的古鲁,然后你们都会去 所以,当你安静地坐下来以后——就像现在这样——请问问自己想要什么? 我们想要的是什么? 是否存在着一种共同的冲动、 共同的欲求、共同的渴望? 还是说它们都是分离独立的, 每一个人想要的东西和其他人是完全不同的? 也许我们从未认真地问过自己这个问题。 如果你非常认真严肃地问一下它, 那么你想要的是什么? 是幸福吗? 难道幸福就是我们生活的目标吗? 是安全吗? 感到很安全。 在你想要的那种自由中感到彻底安全。 既安全又自由。 在某个社团、学会、 团体、国家或信仰中感到安全, 同时又是自由的。 请非常认真严肃地看下这个问题,为了你自己,去看一下它。 你是想要与某人有更好的关系吗? 想要与丈夫、妻子,或者无论是谁 毫无冲突地生活在一起吗? 是不是因为你想要彻底摆脱掉自己的局限? 或者想要不再畏惧死亡。 当你观察这一切, 你观察了我们自身各种形式的欲望、 渴望、逃避与执著, 在这些东西中,什么才是我们想要的? 是想要老有所依吗? 我的年纪越来越大了, 我得找个可以依靠的人。 我可以和那个人愉快地生活在一起,但我却无法忍受和他人在一起。 所以请向我保证, 在我的余生里,我能和那个人融洽地相处。 你们跟上所有这些了吗? 我有一些心理情结或心理障碍, 某些局限 ——而我想要克服它们。 如果我们审视一下所有这些东西,哪怕我们已经学识渊博了, 无论我们是博学的知识分子、 浪漫主义者、 科学家还是政治家等等,在内心深处,我们想要的是什么?
1:24:56 Would one answer cover the whole lot? You understand? If I can find the root of something, of all of this, then I can let everything go. You understand my question? Is it freedom? Not to do what one likes – that is too childish, too immature, too limited. Freedom. That word itself contains, in the terms, love. Is that what you want? Or to have no responsibility at all. Like the soldier who is sent to war, he is perfectly happy because he has no responsibility. Is that what you want? No responsibility whatsoever. That is why, is it, that you take drugs? Or to have more excitement? You want more excitement, more sensation. Sir, put all this together and add more to it. There must be a root to all this. You understand? One question that will answer all questions. Is there such a thing? Is it that you want the increase of self-interest? To stabilise, to strengthen, to have deep roots in self-interest? 是否有一个答案可以涵盖所有的回答? 你理解了吗? 如果我可以找到某个事物的根源所在, 找到这一切的根源, 那么我便可以放下一切疑问了。 你明白我的问题了吗? 我们想要的是自由吗? 不是那种随心所欲,为所欲为的自由——那就太幼稚、 太不成熟、太局限了。 自由。 这个词本身包含了 你可以把它称为“爱”。 这是你们想要的吗? 或者说,你们想要的是彻底免除所有的责任。 就像士兵一样,他被派去打仗, 他会感到无比开心,因为他不用再背负责任了。 这就是你们想要的吗?不再有任何责任。 这就是你们去吸毒的原因?是吗? 或者你们想要有更多的刺激事儿? 你想要有更多的刺激、更多的感官享受。 先生,你可以把所有这些集中在一起,然后再为它增加更多的内容。 但这一切必然是有一个根源的。你理解了吗? 一个问题便能够回答掉所有的问题。 是否存在这样一个东西? 是不是你想要增加一己私利(self-interest)? 去稳固自我利益,去增强它, 让一己私利变得稳如泰山?
1:27:45 I can answer that, but it is in your court. You must return the ball. You can't just say, well, I will hold the ball for a while. You are playing a game. What is it that will answer all these questions? Would not all these questions be answered when you have absolute unconditional psychological freedom? And freedom means love, not anything else. Love is not desire, pleasure, sensation, attachment. And where there is love, there is compassion and that unlimited intelligence. When it is there, you have answered everything. I don't know if you understand this. Then there will be no war, no conflict. In relationship there will be no conflict when there is love, not the image of each other, fighting each other. You understand my question? Is that the answer? Is that the root of all our desires, wants, longings, prayers, worship? The question is answered, sir. 我可以来回答它,但现在球在你的半场了。 你必须把球打回去。 你不能只是说:啊,让我暂时先把球拿在手上吧。 因为你正在玩这个游戏。 什么样的答案可以回答掉所有这些问题? 当你有了那种完全没有局限的心理上的自由时, 所有这些问题不就迎刃而解了吗? 而自由唯一的含义就是爱,除此之外,别无其他。 爱并不是欲望、快感、感官感觉、 执著依赖。 当有了爱, 就会有慈悲和那种没有局限的智慧。 当爱存在,你就回答了一切的问题。 我不知道你们有没有明白它。 那时我们就不会有战争,不会有冲突。 有了爱,关系中就不会有冲突, 不会有关于对方的意象,也不会彼此斗争。 你理解我的问题了吗? 这不就是答案吗? 这不就是我们所有的欲望、 渴求、渴望、祈祷和崇拜的根源所在吗? 先生们,问题已经回答完了。