克里希那穆提 - 危机存在于我们的意识中

Krishnamurti Subtitles

OJ85T2 - 危机存在于我们的意识中
美国加利福尼亚州欧亥
第二次公开演讲
1985年5月12日

0:32	Krishnamurti: May we continue with what we were talking about yesterday morning. We have got the next two talks – three talks, rather – today and next Saturday and Sunday. We have to cover a great deal of ground. We must talk over together the question of time, thought, and the various forms of fear, and the everlasting pursuit of pleasure, satisfaction, gratification, and also we should talk over together sorrow – whether it is possible to end sorrow. And also love and compassion, death, and the religious mind, or the brain. And also we should go into the question of meditation, and ask ourselves if there is anything beyond all the travail of man, all this confusion, all this loneliness and despair and anxiety, if there is anything sacred, holy. And so we have a great deal of ground to cover, if you are willing.	克里希那穆提（以下简称“克”）：我们可以接着我们昨天早上所讨论的东西继续讲下去吗？我们还有两次演讲 ——更确切地说是三次—— 今天的演讲，以及下周六和周日的演讲。这些演讲将会涵盖很多方面的内容。我们必须一起来讨论一下时间的问题，思想的问题，各种形式的恐惧，以及那永不停息的、对于快感、满足和满意的追求，而我们同样也要来一起谈论下痛苦（sorrow） ——是否可能结束痛苦？也会来讨论一下爱、慈悲、死亡，以及宗教心灵和大脑。我们还将会来探究一下关于冥想的问题，并且问问我们自己：是否存在某种事物它超越了人类所有的痛苦，所有的困惑，所有的孤独、绝望和焦虑，是否存在某种神圣的、圣洁的东西？所以我们有很多的内容要谈 ——如果你们愿意聆听的话。
2:53	As we said yesterday, we are not imposing anything on you, not trying to convince you of anything. And the speaker really means it. We are not trying to convert you, do propaganda or program you, because we are apt to be rather gullible, easily satisfied with new forms of experiences and sensations. So we should together – not that the speaker is the only talker – but together, you and the speaker are going to look into all these matters. Not only verbally or analytically, which is comparatively easy, but rather go much deeper than mere rationalisation, explanation, and description. If that is clearly understood between us, that the speaker doesn't want anything from you, fortunately, neither your applause – please, your applause at the end of the talks – or your encouragement or discouragement. Literally, he doesn't want a thing from you. So you can all be quiet, relaxed, and listen.	就如我们昨天所说的，我们并不是要把任何观点强加于你，也没有试图说服你任何东西。演讲者是说真的。我们并没有试图改变你的信仰，给你宣传洗脑，或者让你变得程序化，因为我们往往很容易受骗上当，轻易地满足于各种新的形式的经验和感官刺激。所以我们应该一起来 ——并不是只有演讲者一个人在讲—— 而是我们一起，你和演讲者一起来探究所有这些问题。不只是口头上的，或者通过分析法 ——这些相对来说都是容易的，而是我们要更为深入地去探究它，而不仅仅是去合理化、去解释它和描述它。希望我们双方都能清楚这一点，那就是演讲者并不想要从你这里获得任何东西，这真是万幸，我既不要你们的掌声 ——请注意，就是演讲结束时你们的掌声—— 也不要你们的鼓励或打击。千真万确，他并不想要从你这里获得任何东西。所以你们都可以安静下来，保持放松，然后聆听。
5:19	It has been one of our problems, perhaps for many, many millennia, the question of guilt. It is important to understand this question, why human beings throughout the world have this sense of guilt. Having been told from childhood to do something and not being able to do it like most children, happily, but unfortunately they cultivate this sense of guilt. And also in religions, especially in Christianity, the original sin – you must know all about it if you are Christian – and one who saves you from that sin. So you begin to have guilt there too. That we are all guilty, we are all the product of original sin whatever that may mean.	我们的问题之一， ——也许已经持续了好几千年了—— 那就是罪恶感（guilt）的问题。了解这个问题是非常重要的，为什么全世界的人都会有这种罪恶感？我们从小就被告知去做什么，却又无法像大多数孩子那样快乐地做到那些事，但不幸的是，他们培养了我们的负罪感。同样的，在宗教领域，特别是在基督教中，那种原罪的概念 ——你们肯定知道所有这些，如果你是基督教徒的话—— 以及那个拯救你脱离罪恶的人。所以你在宗教中也开始有罪恶感了。我们都是有罪之人，我们都是原罪的产物 ——无论那个“原罪”是什么意思。
6:45	And also, we are always falling short of our own ideals. And thereby also one feels guilty. You must know this. Probably most of us do. Either we are aware of it or it is deeply hidden in most people. We are indifferent to all that, and if one awakens to it, knows the process of guilt, what is implied in it. And also there are those who love to keep other people feeling guilty. Then you have them under your thumb and they love that kind of power. So there is the guilt of not behaving rightly, according to some tradition or according to your own pattern of thought, and not being able to reach that level one begins to feel guilty, and so on. And also there is the other question. We are living with something dreadful around us, something very, very ugly. Surely we all must be aware of it. Not only the ugliness, the naughtiness, the brutality of wars, but also this tremendous – if one can call it evil, the speaker doesn't like to use that word – but the constant pressure, influence of certain ideologies, like the totalitarian Communist ideologies, which is completely monstrous and deadly, if you know all about it, and we have to live with that next door. It is our brother across the wall. Not only the Berlin wall, but the wall that exists to push this away or to fight it or face it. And we are living with that. If you are at all aware of all this, not only the monstrosities and the cruelty of war, but the ideology of wars. And how do we meet that, not only as individuals but collectively, and what is the response of each one of us? We are living with something in the world that is becoming more and more ugly, more and more destructive, tyrannical. This is happening the world over, it isn't just in certain spots of the world, it is gradually creeping. And what is our response to all that? Is it indifference? Is it we don't care what happens in the other field? Is it that we don't want to face all this? And if we do face it, what can we do? Not organisationally, because that always ends up in another kind of mess. What do we, as human beings living on this earth, – which is also being gradually destroyed because of overpopulation, more and more big cities, and our indifference to nature – what is our responsibility to all this? Do we feel at all responsible? Responsible in the sense not only to your wife or husband or to your family, but to the rest of mankind, whether you be Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist – those are all just names, labels, without much depth.	同样的，我们也总是缺乏我们自己的理想。因此我们也会有一种罪恶感。你们一定知道它。也许我们大多数人都是如此。要么我们意识到了它，要么它潜藏在大多数人的内心深处。我们对这一切漠不关心，而如果我们醒悟到了它，了解了罪恶感的过程，它所隐含的意义。同样也有一些人，它们喜欢让他人保持那种罪恶感。这样你便可以将人们掌控在手心了，而那些人喜欢这种权力。所以我们有着不能正确行动的负罪感 ——不能根据某些传统或者根据你自己思想模式来行动的负罪感，而由于无法达到那个层次，我们就会开始有罪恶感，等等。此外，还有另外一个问题。我们正在和自己周围的某些可怕之物生活在一起，一些非常非常丑陋的东西。毫无疑问，我们肯定都能感知到它。不只是战争的丑陋、粗俗和残忍，同样还包括那种巨大的 ——如果某人可以称它为“邪恶”的话，演讲者并不喜欢用这个词—— 那种持续不断的、来自于某些意识形态的压力和影响，就像极权主义者的共产主义意识形态，它是彻底恐怖畸形和死气沉沉的 ——如果你们知道关于它的一切的话，而我们就住在它的隔壁。穿过那道围墙，他们是我们的兄弟。不只是柏林墙，而是那道在推开它、在抗争它或面对它的墙。而我们就和它生活在一起。如果你们真的觉察到了所有这些事情，不仅仅是战争的丑陋畸形与残忍，也包括意识形态的战争。我们是如何去面对它的？不仅仅是作为个人如何去面对它，也包括作为集体如何去面对它，而我们每个人的反应又是什么？我们正和某些东西一起生活在这个世界上，这个世界正在变得越来越丑陋，越来越具有破坏性、越来越专制。这就是全世界正在发生的事情，它并不只是发生在这个世界的某些地方，它正在逐渐地蔓延开来。而我们对这一切的反应是什么？是漠不关心吗？是我们不在乎其他地方发生的事情吗？是我们不想去面对这一切吗？而如果我们真的去面对它了，我们又能做些什么呢？不是依靠各类组织去做些什么，因为这样做最终总是会导致另一种混乱。而是我们作为人类，生活在这个地球上 ——这个地球也正在逐渐地被摧毁，因为人口过剩，大城市越来越多，我们对大自然漠不关心—— 对于这一切，我们的责任是什么？我们是否真的感到负有责任？ “负责”的意思并不只是对你的妻子、丈夫或家庭负责，而是要对其余的人类负责，不管你是什么——新教徒、天主教徒、印度教徒、佛教徒，所有这些都只是一些名称、标签而已，它们并没有什么深刻的意义。
13:24	Will you go into all this matter? Please don't wait – if I may most respectfully point out – for the speaker to tell you what to do. Which would be another form of cultivation of guilt. But rather, in talking things over together, observing, hearing each other very carefully, not merely to the words but behind the words, the deep significance of a word and what it signifies, then we don't have to tell each other what to do.	你愿意去探究这整件事情吗？请不要等待 ——如果容许我恭敬地指出的话—— 请不要等待演讲者来告诉你该怎么做。因为这是在以另一种形式培养罪恶感。而是让我们一起去讨论这些事情，去观察，非常仔细地聆听彼此，不仅仅是聆听那些话语，也要聆听话语背后的东西，聆听话语的深层意义，以及它所表达的意思，那时我们就不需要告诉对方该怎么做了。
14:27	So there is guilt, and there is the thing with which we are living daily, and what is the relationship of that, of these two, to fear. And in the enquiring into this question of fear, – that which is brutal, terrible, that is happening in the world, and also our own sense of inadequacy, which is another form of guilt – what is the relationship of all this to fear and what is fear, not the superficial or deep fears but the root, not only the trunk of it but the many, many branches of it, what is the root of it?	所以，存在着那种罪恶感，以及那种我们每天与之共同生活的事物，那么它们——这两者—— 和恐惧的关系是什么呢？我们在探询关于恐惧的问题 ——那个残忍、可怕的事物，它正在全世界发生着，我们也要探询我们自身的不完整感，它是另一种形式的罪恶感 ——那么所有这些东西，它们和恐惧的关系是什么？什么是恐惧？不只是那些表面的恐惧或深层的恐惧，而是恐惧的根源，不只是恐惧的树干，也包括它无数的分支枝条，恐惧的根源是什么呢？
15:49	So we are going to enquire not only into time, because time is related to fear, as we shall go into it. What is time, by which we live – today, tomorrow, the past, the future – and also what is thinking? Because we live by thinking. Everything we do, act, is based on thought. So may we go into all that?	所以我们将会来探询，不只是探询时间，因为时间和恐惧是关联在一起的，我们之后会谈到这一点。我们需要依靠时间来生活，那么这种时间是什么呢 ——今天、明天，过去、未来。此外，思考又是什么呢？因为我们需要依靠思考来生活。我们所做的每一件事情，我们的行为都是建立在思想之上的。所以我们可以来探讨下所有这些吗？
16:47	It is a nice, not too hot a morning, pleasant under the trees, and a rather cool breeze, which one hopes you will not mind, and it is rather convenient to go to sleep here, if you are well covered with blankets, etc. Nice Sunday morning, free of all the office work, and labour and travail and skill. And under the trees in the dappled light it is rather pleasant. 'You can go on talking, but it doesn't matter, I will go to sleep and you go on.' If that is what you want, go to sleep. But if we are serious, earnest, which we must be because that is one of the crises we have come to. It is no longer mere entertainment, no longer mere intellectual game, or seeking sensation from one thing to another, or from another. We have got to face some extraordinary crises in life – life being our consciousness. The crisis is not in economics, political, religious, but the crisis is in our consciousness. Why we are what we are after thousands and thousands of years, that is where the crisis is. And merely to solve the economic crisis or the political crisis or the brutality of ideologies and wars, it is not only there but it is much deeper. So we are going to enquire first, because they are all related, all problems are related to each other, they are not separate. If one can solve one problem completely, then you have solved all other problems because there is no separate problem, whether it be sexual, whether it be the desire to fulfil, and so on. So in the resolution of one the whole thing is solved, if you know how to do it.	这是一个美好的早晨，不是太热，舒服地坐在树下，凉风习习，某人希望你们不会对此介意，而在这里睡觉也是相当方便的，你只要盖张毛毯等等就可以了。一个美好的星期天的早晨，没有所有那些办公室的事情，没有劳作、辛劳和技能工作。坐在树下，享受着斑驳的阳光，令人无比愉悦。 “你可以继续演讲，这没有关系，我要睡觉了，你继续。” 如果这就是你们想要的，那就去睡觉吧。但如果我们是认真的、真诚的——而我们必须如此，因为这是我们所面临的危机之一。它不再仅仅是娱乐，不再仅仅是智力游戏，或者从一个又一个的事物中寻求感官刺激，或者从别人那里寻求感官刺激。我们必须要面对我们生活中的一些特别的危机 ——生活就是我们的意识。危机并不存在于经济之中、政治之中、宗教之中，危机存在于我们的意识之中。为什么在经过了成千上万年以后，我们依然是老样子，这就是危机所在。而仅仅去解决经济危机或者政治危机，或者意识形态和战争的暴行，危机并不只是这些事情，它有着更深层的含义。所以我们首先要来探询它，因为它们都是相关的，所有的问题都是彼此关联的，它们并不是分离的。如果你可以彻底地解决掉一个问题，那么你就解决了所有其他的问题，因为并没有单独存在的问题 ——不管是性方面的问题，还是渴望自我实现的问题，等等。所以，解决了一个问题，你就解决了所有的事情 ——如果你知道怎么去做的话。
20:31	So what is time? Time not only by the sunrise and the sunset, the darkness of a night and the glory of a morning. Time as the past, not only the past of one's own life but the vast historical past, the story of mankind, which is the history of mankind. That is, the long centuries, millennia upon millennia past, and the present – and the past modifying itself through the present becomes the future. Time is a cycle, it is a circle in which we are caught. So we should look at it closely, not merely understand it intellectually but actually go into it, if you will.	所以，什么是时间呢？时间并不仅仅是日出日落的时间，夜晚的黑暗和清晨的光辉。还有着那种作为过去的时间，不只是我们生命中过去的岁月，也包括那浩瀚无边的过去的历史，人类的故事，也就是人类的历史。那无数世纪漫长的岁月，已经过去的成千上万年，时间也包含了现在 ——而过去经由现在修改了自身而变成了未来。时间就是一个循环，它是一个圈子，而我们则陷入于这个循环之中。所以我们应该仔细地来看一下它，不仅仅是从智力上了解它，而是真正地深入它——如果你愿意的话。
22:20	We are the past, whether that past be one day or many thousands of years. The past being the knowledge, the memories, the remembrances, concealed or open, and from that past is our action. That past is the tradition, that past is the religions of Christianity with all its divisions during the last 2000 years. That is the past. And in India and China the past is 3 to 5000 years old, with their tradition, with their beliefs, with their superstition, with their nonsense. So the past is what we are. Without the past, you are not. So that past, that enormous past, weighty past, goes through and modifies itself through the present. You can see economically, the pressures change the present, which is the past. And the future – tomorrow or the very end of one's life and beyond, not reincarnation, we will go into all that presently – the future. That future is the modified form of the past. It is so obvious. And that future is in the now. Right? Because the past modifying itself is the future. And that future is now, because if I am smoking, I will smoke tomorrow, if I am greedy, tomorrow I will be greedy still, and so on. So the past is in the present. Please understand this very simple fact. This whole movement from the past through the present modifying itself as the future, and that future is now because unless I fundamentally change, the future will be what I am now. Right? See the truth of this simple fact. Not I am persuading you, not that you are being told or pressurised, or computerised. This is a simple fact. If I am vicious, cruel, brutal today, as I have been in the past, I will be that tomorrow. You can't get away from it. If I am quarrelling with my wife or husband and so on, I will do it tomorrow too. So tomorrow is now. And to break this chain in which we are caught there must be a mutation now. You follow this? Simple fact. This is the whole cycle of time, isn't it?	我们就是过去，不管那个“过去”是一天，还是好几千年。过去就是知识、记忆和回忆 ——隐藏的或者公开的，从过去之中便产生出了我们的行动。那个过去就是传统，那个过去就是在过去的两千年里，基督教的各种宗教及其所有的分裂。那就是过去。还有印度和中国，他们的过去就是三千至五千年的历史，以及他们的传统、信仰、迷信和所有荒谬之事。所以过去就是我们的真实模样。没有过去，你就不复存在了。所以那个过去，那个庞大的过去，沉重的过去，它穿越了时光，然后在当下修改了自身。你可以在经济上看到这一点，那些经济的压力改变了当下 ——当下即过去。而未来 ——即明天，或者一个人生命的终点和生命结束之后，不是轮回转世——我们过会儿会来探讨所有这些东西—— 而是未来。那个未来是修改了形式之后的过去。这是显而易见的。而那个未来它就存在于此刻之中。对吧？因为过去修改了自身以后便成了未来。而那个未来就是现在，因为如果我现在在抽烟，那么明天我也会抽烟，如果我是贪婪的，明天我依然会是贪婪的，等等。因此过去就存在于当下之中。请明白这个非常简单的事实。这整个的运动，过去经由现在，修改了它自身，而成为了未来，而那个未来就是现在，因为除非我彻底改变，否则未来的我还是会和现在一样。对吧？请看到这个简单的事实真相。我并没有在说服你什么，你并不是在接受说教或者被施压，或者被电脑化（computerised）。这是一个简单的事实。如果今天我是恶毒、无情和残忍的 ——就像过去的我一样，那么明天我还是会这样。你是无法摆脱掉它的。如果我正在和我的妻子或丈夫等等争吵，那么明天我还是会和他们争吵。所以明天就是现在。而要打破这个束缚着我们的枷锁，我们必须在此刻就有一次突变（mutation）。你们理解这些了吗？这是简单的事实。这就是时间的整个循环过程，不是吗？
27:24	And is it possible to bring about this mutation? What is it that is being – not transformed, the word 'transformed' means moving from one form to another form, therefore it is not mutation – what is it that is being radically changed – even that word 'change' implies time, changing from this to that. So we have to stick to that word – to bring about a mutation. That is, a radical ending of something, and the beginning of something totally new.	那么我们是否可能带来这种突变呢？是什么东西正在 ——不应该说“转变”， “转变”这个词意味着从一种形式变到另一种形式，所以它便不是突变了—— 是什么东西正在发生彻底的改变呢？但即使是“改变”这个词也蕴含了时间，从这个样子变为那个样子。所以我们还是坚守这个词——即我们要带来一次突变。它的意思就是：彻底地结束掉某个事物，然后开启某种完全崭新的事物。
28:26	Isn't it that our consciousness, each one's consciousness, which is what we are. There are lots of books written about this stuff, but it is very simple. I don't know why people like things very complex. It is probably very exciting to get talking about things rather complex. But it is rather simple. What is one's consciousness? Surely what one believes, what one has faith in, what one desires, one's nationality, one's fears, one's terrors, one's depression, anxiety, loneliness, despair, cruelty, guilt, fear, pleasure, sorrow, the multiplication of desires all that is our consciousness, isn't it? Let's be simple about it. You see, to approach very complex problems one must come simply to it first. Then it becomes complex, then you can understand it. But if you begin already with complexity, then the thing will become more and more complex, we will never resolve anything.	我们的意识每一个人的意识，它难道不就是它就是我们的真实现状。有很多书籍都讲了关于意识这方面的东西，但它是非常简单的。我不知道为什么人们喜欢那些非常复杂的东西。也许谈论那些相当复杂的东西会令人兴奋。但它（意识）其实是相当简单的。我们的意识是什么？很显然，它就是我们所相信的东西，我们所信仰的东西，我们所渴望的东西，我们的国家民族，我们的恐惧，我们害怕的东西，我们的沮丧、焦虑、孤独、绝望、残忍、罪恶感、恐惧、快乐、痛苦，成倍增加的欲望，所有这一切就是我们的意识，难道不是吗？让我们简单地来处理它。你瞧，要处理非常复杂的问题，我们首先必须简单地去面对它。然后它会变得复杂起来，然后你便能够了解它了。但如果你开始的时候就已经把它复杂化了，那么那个东西就会变得越来越复杂了，我们将永远无法解决任何问题。
30:38	So, our consciousness is all its content. You can put into that content everything you can think of: your knowledge, your superstitions, your fears, and so on. The multiplication of human experiences and trials and attempts, etc. And can the content, which is what we are, which is not only the past but the future – and that future is now, we went into all that just now, briefly. The whole of that is you, is the persona, is the ego, is the tremendous self-interest. And we are asking, can that – that consciousness is the result of vast evolution, not only the survival but also the knowledge of surviving – so can there be a total mutation in that consciousness? And if we rely on time, as we do, then we will begin the same old pattern again. I wonder if we understand each other.	所以，我们的意识就是它自身全部的内容。你可以将任何你所能想到的东西放入到它的内容中：你的知识、你的迷信、你的恐惧、等等。那些不断增加的人类的经验、磨难和努力，等等。而这些内容，它们能够 ——这些内容就是我们自己，它不仅仅是过去，也是未来 ——那种未来就是现在，刚才我们已经简要地探讨过它了。所有这些东西就是你，就是那个人物角色，就是自我，就是那种强烈的自私自利。而我们正在问，那种意识能否 ——那种意识是漫长岁月进化的产物，它不仅仅是关于生存的，也包括了关于如何生存的知识。所以，这种意识是否能够有一次完全的突变？而如果我们依靠时间来实现它——我们就是这么做的，那么，我们就会再次开始重复那条老路。我不知道我们是否彼此理解了对方。
32:49	The speaker recently talked – if I may most humbly point out, this is not out of vanity I am informing you – he talked to the United Nations. I don't know why he was invited, but he went there. And after the talk, one of the high authorities there said, 'I have come to the conclusion, conviction rather, that after 40 years working in this organisation, I have come to the conclusion that I must not kill'. 40 years it took him. No, just see the significance of it. That it takes the human brain to come to some truth during 40 years. That is, not to kill another human being. And the whole organisation is based on not to bring about wars, prevent wars – they haven't done, that is irrelevant. But the whole point is how the human brain refuses to face fact and act. And we think that during time we will resolve everything. Time will help you to forget, and so on.	演讲者最近曾发表了一次演讲 ——如果允许我非常谦虚地说出来的话，我告诉你们这事并非出于虚荣心—— 他在联合国发表了一次演讲。我不知道为什么他会受到邀请，但他还是去了那里。在演讲结束以后，其中一位联合国的高官对我说， “我得出了一个结论，更确切地说是坚定的信念：那就是在这个组织里工作了四十年以后，我得出了一个结论：那就是我绝不能去杀戮”。他花了四十年才明白这一点。请注意，你们要去看到这其中的意义。那就是，人类的大脑为了明白一些真理，花费了四十年的时间。那个真理就是：不要去杀死别人。整个联合国的组织都是建立在不要引发战争，要阻止战争的目标之上的 ——但他们并没有实现这一目标，当然这又是另一回事了。但重点就在于人类的大脑是如何拒绝去面对事实然后行动的？而我们认为在时间的长河中我们将会解决一切问题。时间将会帮助你去遗忘，等等。
34:57	So that is the nature of time: the past modifying itself through the present and continuing as the future. So the future, the past, and the present are one unless there is fundamental, radical ending of all that. Otherwise you will be what you are tomorrow. We are unfortunately miserable people, unhappy people, which is a fact, and if we don't change now we will be tomorrow the same. It is simple reality, truth of it. And also, what is the relationship of time – not the chronological time only, what is the relationship of time to thought? And what is the relationship of time, thought, to fear? You follow? May we go on? You are not too bored with all this? I hope the sun is warming you. But please, keep awake for another 50 minutes or so, will you? Which is not an insult, please, asking this. So we are asking, what is the relationship of time, thought, and fear.	所以时间的本质就是如此：过去经由当下修改了自己，然后变作未来而延续下去。所以未来、过去和现在是一体的，除非我们从根本上、彻底地结束所有这一切。否则你明天依然会是老样子。很不幸地，我们都是痛苦的人、不快乐的人 ——这是一个事实，而如果我们此刻不改变的话，我们明天还是会和现在一样。这是一个简单的事实，它千真万确。同样的，时间 ——不只是物理上的时间—— 时间和思想的关系是什么？而时间、思想，它们和恐惧的关系又是什么？你们跟上了吗？我们可以继续下去吗？你们还没有对此感到太厌烦吧？我希望阳光正在温暖着你们。但拜托，请你们再保持清醒大约50分钟左右，可以吗？这并非出于无礼，请你们去问一下这个问题。所以我们在问：时间、思想和恐惧它们的关系是什么？
37:00	We have more or less gone into the question of time, so let us go into the question of thought. What is thinking? The speaker is using words to communicate what he is supposed to be thinking, and you hear the words and translate those words according to your pleasure or displeasure, or you are casually hearing, or probably you don't understand English quite well, or you do understand English very well and give certain significance to those words. Thinking. This is the whole process of thinking. Thought has put man on the moon. Thought has created the instruments of war. Thought has created the destruction of man. Put together the most amazing cathedrals in the world, temples and mosques – if you have seen some of them, they are marvellous beauties. And thought has also created the vast technological world. Thought has also established a relationship between man and woman, which we will go into presently, afterwards. Thought produces all our actions, so thought is very important. Not to expand or give greater depth to thought, but we are enquiring into the very nature and structure of thought, of thinking. Right? Shall we go into it?	我们已经或多或少地探究过了关于时间的问题，所以现在让我们来探讨一下关于思想的问题。什么是思考？演讲者正在使用词语来传达所谓的他的“所思所想”，而你们在聆听他的话语，并且根据你们的喜好厌恶来翻译诠释这些话语，或者你们只是随便听听，或者也许你们的英语理解能力不是很好，或者你的英语理解能力非常好，所以你会赋予这些话语以特定的意义。思考。这就是思考的整个过程。思想已经把人类送上了月球。思想已经创造出了那些战争的工具。思想带来了人类的毁灭。思想也建造了这个世界上最令人惊叹的大教堂，那些寺庙和清真寺 ——如果你们曾经见过其中的一些的话，它们有着惊人的美。思想还创造出了庞大复杂的科技世界。思想同样也建立起了男人和女人之间的关系 ——我们待会会来探讨这一点，之后会来探讨它。思想制造出了我们所有的行动，所以思想是非常重要的。我们并不是在扩展思想的含义，或者赋予它更深层的意义，我们是在探询思想和思考的本质和结构。对吗？我们可以来探究下它吗？
39:33	The speaker doesn't know if you have really gone into this question at all. Probably one has never asked, even the professionals don't ask, so why should you? You are not educated to enquire, you are educated to conform, educated to say, yes, I have memorised, I have acquired information, knowledge, and I will get a good job, or no job, or whatever one does. But one has never gone into this question really very deeply – enquiring what is thinking. Why does the brain, which is after all our only instrument we have, neurologically, biologically, emotionally, it is the centre of all our existence. And that thing inside the skull, which we call the brain, that brain has never asked itself: why am I constantly thinking, chattering away like blazes about everything – what I did yesterday, what I will do tomorrow, what I am doing, why this, why that, dreaming at night and all day long chattering. What extraordinary human beings we are. So we must enquire what is thought, what is thinking? What is the origin of it?	演讲者不知道你是否曾经真正地深入过这个问题。也许你从来没有问过这个问题，即使是那些专家也没有问过，所以为什么你要去问呢？你们没有被教育着说要去询问，你们被教育着去遵从，被教育着去说：是的，我已经记住了，我已经获得了知识、学问，我将会找到一份好工作，或者找不到工作，或者无论你会做什么。但是我们从来没有非常深入地去探究过这个问题，去询问：什么是思考？为什么大脑 ——毕竟，大脑是我们所拥有的唯一的工具，在神经学上、生物学上，以及情感方面，它是我们一切存在的核心。而这个头骨内的东西 ——我们把它称为大脑，这个大脑从来没有问过它自己：为什么我总是在不停地思考，像噼啪燃烧的火焰一样，喋喋不休地念叨着各种各样的东西 ——我昨天做了什么，我明天要做什么，我正在做什么，为什么会这样，为什么会那样，晚上做梦，而整个白天则是在喋喋不休。我们是多么奇特的人类。所以，我们必须要来询问一下：什么是思想？什么是思考？它的源头是什么？
41:37	Do you want my explanation? You see, that is what I am objecting to, because you are not actually enquiring. You are waiting for somebody to tell you. Therefore he becomes the nasty guru and you become the follower. And the speaker says please don't do that. That is, you will destroy not only yourself but also the one who leads you. So let's put aside all that nonsense and enquire together. The word 'together' is important, but don't let's go into that for the moment.	你们想要我来解释它吗？你瞧，这正是我所反对的事情，因为你们并没有真正地在探询。你们在等待着某人来告诉你们。因此他就变成了肮脏的古鲁，而你则变成了他的追随者。而演讲者想说：请不要这样做。因为，这样你不仅会摧毁你自己，也会摧毁那个指引你的人。所以，让我们把所有这些荒唐事都放在一边，然后一起去探询。 “一起”这个词是非常重要的，但我们暂时先不解释它了。
42:44	So what is thinking? Does thinking rely on memory? The accumulated memories, remembrances – I want to be a great man because I have seen a great many people, great men, having a good time, becoming famous, plenty of money, plenty of cars, etc. So, there is this vast collection of memories. Not only personal, but also the remembrance of many things past, the remembrance historically, collected memories, conscious memories and deep layers of memories – aren't we the memories? Aren't we a bundle of memories? Forgive me for using that word and putting it so limited, in a limited manner, aren't we all memories? And what are memories based on? Please enquire with me, don't just listen to the poor man. Go into it with the speaker. What are memories based on? Aren't they based on knowledge? The tremendous accumulation of information as knowledge, whether it be vast – not vast – limited knowledge of science, adding to itself all the time, and that knowledge which is being added to must always be limited because you are adding to it, therefore it is limited. One doesn't know about aerodynamics or the astrophysics, but I will gather, I will get it experiment after experiment.	所以什么是思考呢？思考是不是依赖于记忆的？那些积累起来的记忆，那些回忆 ——我想要成为一个大人物因为我曾经见过很多的大人物，这些大人物过着快乐的生活，他们名扬四海，家财万贯，还有很多的汽车，等等。所以，我们已经收集了数量惊人的记忆。不只是个人的记忆，也包括无数过去事物的回忆，那些历史的记忆，那些堆积起来的记忆，那些意识中的记忆，以及深处的记忆 ——我们不就是记忆吗？我们不就是一堆记忆吗？请原谅我使用这样的措辞，把它说得如此局限，以如此狭隘的方式来表述它，可我们难道不就是所有那些记忆吗？记忆是建立在什么之上的？请跟着我一起来探询，不要只是听这个可怜的家伙讲。和演讲者一起来深入它。记忆是建立在什么之上的？它们难道不就是建立在知识之上的吗？我们积累起了数量惊人的信息，这些信息变成了知识，不管这种知识是浩瀚无边的 ——不应该说“浩瀚无边”——不管它是局限的科学知识，一直在不断地为自己补充添加，而那种正在被补充添加的知识必然永远都是局限的，因为你正在添加补充它，所以它是局限的。某人并不了解空气动力学或者天体物理学，但我会收集相关的信息，我将会通过一次次的实验获得关于它的知识。
45:26	So, knowledge is based on experience. Right? And experience, or experience and all that, is essentially limited. Isn't it? All experience, it doesn't matter whatever experience it is, it must be limited because there is an experiencer who is experiencing. And the experiencer is the past – his memories, his accumulation, his hopes, his fears, his wanting to be enlightened, his wanting to be godly, his wanting to say, I want to be popular, therefore I will learn a few phrases and translate in my own way and then become – blah, blah, blah.	所以，知识是建立在经验之上的。对吧？然而经验、经历，等等这些，本质上来说都是局限的。不是吗？所有的经验，不管它是什么经验都无所谓，它必定是局限的，因为总是存在着一个正在经历它的经验者。而那个经验者就是过去 ——他的记忆、他的积累物、他的希望、他的恐惧，他想要开悟，他想要变得神圣，他想说：我想要受人欢迎，所以我将会学习某些措词，再用我的话来诠释它们，然后我就可以变成——等等等等。
46:37	So, experience must be recognised, otherwise it is no experience at all. And the one who recognises is the past – it is all so silly, isn't it? So, the experiences are always limited. I experience the divine, that tremendous feeling of elation, temporarily – you can fall back. So, experiences are always limited, therefore knowledge is always limited. Always. In the past, or now, to which that knowledge is being added to, is limited. So memories are limited. So thought is limited. Right? I wonder if we understand this, actually the truth of it, not just intellectual concept of it or the idea of it, the truth of it, that thought will always be limited. Thought can imagine the limitless, but it is still limited. Thought has invented gods all over the world, for the last millennia upon millennia, those gods are limited, naturally. So whatever the activity of thought and its action, must always be limited. Therefore thought is not holistic. You understand? If we can realise this simple fact that the thought and the thinker are one, and therefore they are always limited.	所以，经验必须要被识别才行，否则的话，经验就根本不存在了。而那个识别经验的人就是过去 ——这一切都太愚蠢了，不是吗？所以，经验永远都是局限的。我经验到了某种神圣之物，那种无比亢奋的强烈感受，那种感受是暂时的——你还是会回到老样子。所以，经验永远是局限的，所以知识也永远是局限的。永远。无论是在过去，还是现在，现在我们正在添加补充这种知识，但它仍然是局限的。所以，记忆也是局限的。因此思想也是局限的。对吧？我不知道我们是否理解了这一点，真正看到了这个事实真相，并不只是关于它的智力上的概念或者想法，而是看到了这个事实：即思想将永远都是局限的。思想可以去想象那个无限之物，但它自己仍旧是局限的。思想已经发明了遍及世界的神明 ——在过去的几千年中发明了他们，因此很自然地，这些神明也是局限的。所以，无论思想有什么样的活动，它的行动必然永远都是局限的。因此思想并不是完整圆满的。你理解了吗？我们是否可以明白这个简单的事实：即思想和思想者是一个东西，所以他们永远都是局限的。
48:55	Therefore all the religions of the world, though they say divine revelation direct from the horse's mouth – I am not being irrelevant or cynical, but that is so, they all claim direct... and putting on medieval dresses and robes, and all the trickery of that goes on in the name of religion is invented by thought. And therefore the whole hierarchical and the religious structure is limited. And their belief, their faith, their ritual etc., is limited because it is based on thought.	因此全世界所有的宗教，尽管他们说自己神圣的启示是直接来自于马嘴的（译注：比喻第一手的消息） ——我并没有在说不切题的话，或者冷嘲热讽，情况就是如此，他们都宣称那种直接性然后穿上中世纪的服装和长袍，所有这些以宗教名义进行的把戏它们都是思想所发明的。因此那整个宗教等级体系以及宗教的结构，它们都是局限的。所以它们的信仰、信念、仪式等等……也是局限的，因为它是建立在思想之上的。
49:51	So the question arises, if you will kindly listen: is there something beyond thought, or everything is thought? Not nature, of course. The tiger wasn't put together by thought – thank God – or the swift gazelle. So, what is the relationship of time, thought to fear? We are talking about fear. Is there fear without time and thought? Please look at it carefully. Is there a sense of fear that is not rooted in thought and time? I have done something some time ago, and I am frightened of that, guilty. Something that I have done ugly, not straight, not excellent in its quality, and I am ashamed of it, and I am frightened of it, I feel guilty about it, I have lived with it – and fear of all that. Therefore the root of fear is time and thought. Fear of what might happen. I have got a good reputation, but tomorrow you might not turn up – not that I would care, but I'm just... So there is always the shadow of fear with us, shadow of this fear between man and woman, what might happen. And the ultimate fear is death, and out of this fear all the gods are invented.	所以问题就出现了——请你们听好：是否存在某种超越思想的东西？还是说一切事物都是思想？当然了，这其中并不包括大自然。老虎并不是由思想拼凑出来的——谢天谢地—— 那敏捷的小羚羊也不是。所以，时间、思想，它们和恐惧的关系是什么？我们正在谈论恐惧。是否存在没有时间和思想的恐惧？请仔细地来看一下它。是否存在任何并非根植于思想和时间的恐惧感？我不久前曾经做了一些事情，而我害怕它，我有罪恶感。我曾经做过一些卑鄙丑陋的事情，一些不那么正直的事情，一些不那么光彩的事情，而我为此感到羞愧，我害怕这件事，我对此有负罪感，我一直在忍受着它 ——我害怕所有这一切。因此恐惧的根源就是时间和思想。恐惧可能会发生的事情。我现在名声显赫，但明天你们可能就不过来了 ——不是说我在乎这件事，我只是所以恐惧的阴影总是伴随着我们，男人和女人之间会有这种恐惧的阴影，担心对方可能会怎样怎样。而最终的恐惧就是死亡，出于对死亡的恐惧，我们发明出了各种神明。
52:46	So one asks is there an end to fear, total ending? You are asking this question, not I, not the speaker. Which means, is there an end to thought and time? You understand the relation? The logical sequence of all this. It is not only logical, but factual. Is there an ending to all this process, which causes fear? And one knows the results of fear, the consequences of fear, all the cruelty, all the ugliness, the shrinking, the whole world of fear which is dark. And that breeds a great deal of neuroticism, etc. So is there an ending to all this? Not only to ask a question of that kind – the very question sounds rather silly – you can't end time. You can't end thought. Because to go to your house from here you need thinking. To turn on the ignition you need thinking. On Monday morning you are probably going to an office or something or other, you need to think. So to say, can thought end, or time end, is not the actual question. But rather to ask, do I really comprehend, understand the truth of time and thought? Because thought has its place, time has its place. But why should fear arise from thinking? You understand the question? Why should time be a factor in fear?	所以我们要问：恐惧可以结束吗？彻底的结束。是你在问这个问题，而不是我，不是演讲者。这意味着，思想和时间可以结束吗？你理解这其中的关系了吗？所有这一切的逻辑上的顺序。它不仅仅是逻辑上的，也是符合事实的。这整个导致了恐惧的过程，它可以结束吗？我们都知道恐惧的结果，恐惧的后果，所有那些残忍，所有的丑陋，那种畏缩，那整个暗无天日的恐惧的世界。而这滋生出了大量的神经质，等等这些东西。那么所有这一切可以结束吗？不要只是去问这一类的问题 ——因为这个问题本身听起来相当愚蠢—— 你是无法结束时间的。你是无法结束思想的。因为从这里回你自己的家，你需要运用思想。要打开汽车的点火开关，你需要有思想才行。星期一的早上，你也许会去办公室上班，或者去做一些别的什么事，那时你便需要思考。所以当我们问：思想可以结束吗？或时间可以结束吗？这并不是一个现实层面的问题。我们其实是在问：我是否真正理解和明白了时间和思想的实质？因为思想有其自身的位置，时间有它的位置。但为什么从思考中会产生出恐惧？你明白这个问题吗？为什么时间会成为恐惧的一个要素？
55:36	So, if I understand the whole picture, the whole design, the whole map of time, thought, guilt, or fear, then the very observation of it, the very eyes, seeing, not only the eyes, but your whole being looking at it. That means giving your whole attention to this map of fear, not one spot in the map, not one village or town or the road, but the whole map of it. Can one observe without any distortion, this whole structure of it? Of course one can. That is to give attention to pure observation without any distortion. Then that whole chain is broken.	所以，如果我理解了那整一幅画面，那整个的设计，关于时间、思想、罪恶感或恐惧的整幅地图，那么对它的观察本身，看到它的那双眼睛，不只是用眼睛去看，而是用你的整个存在去看它。那意味着你要全神贯注于这张恐惧的地图，不只是地图上的某个地点，不是某个村庄、城镇或某条道路，而是关于它的整张地图。我们能否毫无扭曲地去观察它，观察它的整个结构？我们当然可以了。那就是去全神贯注于这种纯粹的观察，而没有任何的扭曲。那时那整条锁链就被打破了。
57:06	What time is it, sirs?	现在几点了，先生们？
57:09	Audience: Twenty-six until one.	听众：1点差26分。
57:14	K: Twenty five minutes. Shall we go on little while longer?	克：现在应该是1点差25分了。我们可以再继续讲一会儿吗？
57:19	A: Yes. K: Aren't you tired?	听众：可以。克：你们不累吗？
57:21	A: No. K: Why not? Are you all so actively thinking, working, applying, or just saying, well, it is a nice day, let's talk about it.	听众：不累。克：为什么不累？你们是否都是如此活跃地在思考、工作、投入其中，或者只是说：啊，今天天气很好，让我们来讨论下它吧。
57:45	One also, in understanding fear, one should look at desire. We are driven by desire, not only for God, whatever that may mean, not only for success, for power, position, being at the centre of everything, like in Washington or in Delhi or in London or in Paris or in Moscow, or Peking – shall we include Peking – better. We want so many things in life, not only physical things: good cars, good clothes, having a nice body, a nice face, nice cosmetic, you know, the whole game of it. Commercialism in this country is rampant – buy, buy, buy, buy. And desire to be good, desire not to hurt my closest friend but it doesn't matter if I hurt others, but somebody nearby, and so on. We have got so many desires. To be great, to be this, to be that. And we have never asked, perhaps, what is desire? Why religions, the monks have suppressed desire. They burn with it, but they suppress it. The speaker was once walking behind a lot of monks in the Himalayas. Have you ever been to the Himalayas? Some marvellous hills, marvellous mountains. It was a place where you see nearly 400 miles across the horizon, snow-capped, great valleys, great marvellous blue sky, unpolluted, sharp, clear. 400 or 350 miles from range to range to range, the highest peaks. The speaker was walking behind a path and there were monks in front of me. They were chanting, and never looking at any flower, any sky, any tree, and the rivers, they have little streams singing down the hill, dancing waters. And there they were, completely absorbed in what they were supposed to be thinking. Didn't dare to look up and see the beauty of the sky, the trees and the rivers and the flowers. Because that is a distraction. Like all the monks all over the world.	在了解恐惧的过程中，我们同样也要我们也应该来看一下欲望。我们被欲望所驱使着，不只是对上帝的欲望——不管那种欲望意味着什么，不只是对成功、权力、地位的欲望，想要成为舞台的中心人物，就像在华盛顿，或者在德里（印度城市名）、在伦敦、在巴黎或者在莫斯科，或者北京——我们应该把北京包括进去吗——最好还是算进去吧。生活中，我们想要的东西太多了，不只是物质上的事物：好的汽车，好的衣服，拥有苗条的身材，漂亮的脸蛋，精致的妆容，你们都知道这整个游戏。商业主义在这个国家非常盛行 ——不停地买买买。我们也渴望做个好人，不想去伤害自己最亲密的伙伴 ——我伤害其他人是没有关系的，但不能伤害自己亲近的人，等等。我们有着如此多的欲望。想要成为大人物，想要成为这个，想要成那个。然而我们也许从未问过：什么是欲望？为什么那些宗教，那些僧侣要压抑欲望？他们欲火中烧，但他们却压制了这种欲望。演讲者曾经跟在一大群僧侣后面散步，那是在喜马拉雅山脉。你们去过喜马拉雅山吗？那里有一些不可思议的山丘，还有宏伟惊人的山脉。在那里，你可以看到延绵地平线将近400英里的山脉，白雪皑皑，幽美的山谷，无比壮丽的蓝天，一尘不染、清晰、明澈。 400或350英里的山脉绵延不绝，它有着那些最高的山峰。演讲者沿着一条小道走在他们的后面，而我前面的那些僧侣他们正在唱诵，他们丝毫不去看那些花朵、蓝天、树木，以及那些河流，那些河流化为若干条溪流从山上潺潺流下，溪水轻盈起舞。然而僧侣们却在那里完全地专注于他们觉得自己应该去凝思的东西。他们不敢抬头看看美丽的天空，不敢去看一下那些树木、河流与花朵。因为那是一种分心。全世界所有的僧侣都是如此。
1:01:57	So there is this desire in every human being, and without suppressing or denying or transforming or transmuting into something higher, which becomes another form of desire, can we – sorry to laugh – can we look at desire and find out what is the nature, what is the movement, what is the structure of it? Quite objectively. What is desire? What is the beginning of it? Not the ending of it. What is the origin, the source, the movement of it? Shall we go into it?	所以每一个人内在都有着这种欲望，那么我们能否不要去压抑、否定欲望，或者把它转换或转变为某种更高层次的东西 ——那只是变成了另一种形式的欲望罢了，我们能否——不好意思，笑了—— 我们能否观察欲望，然后去发现欲望的本质是什么？欲望的运动是什么？欲望的结构是什么？非常客观地去观察它。什么是欲望？欲望的起点是什么？不是它的终点。而是欲望的起源、源头，它的运动过程是什么？我们可以来探讨下它吗？
1:03:19	We live by sensation. Biologically it is necessary. Otherwise we are paralysed. Sensation plays a tremendous part in our life, not only sexually, but wanting, having more and more and more sensations. Sensation is the result of seeing – will you kindly follow this for a little – seeing, contact, sensation. Right? Seeing those hills and saying, how beautiful, getting a sensation from it, and that is sensation. I read a beautiful poem and sensation, or see a marvellous painting, that is another sensation and so on. That is a natural thing, sensation, isn't it? You look at the trees and the leaves and the sky, and you say, how beautiful it is.	我们依靠感官感觉（sensation）而生活。从生物学上来说，它是必要的。否则的话我们就瘫痪了。感官感觉在我们的生活中扮演了无比重要的角色，而不只是在性方面，我们想要它，想要有越来越多的感官感觉。感官感觉就是看到某事物后的结果 ——请你们稍微跟上一点好吗—— 你看到了它，接触了它，然后感官感觉便产生了。对吧？你看到了这些小山丘，你说：它们是多么的美丽啊，你从中获得了某种感官享受，这就是感官感觉。我读了一首优美的诗歌，获得了感官享受，欣赏一幅美妙的绘画作品，这是另一种感官享受，等等此类事情。感官感觉是一件很自然的事情，不是吗？你欣赏着树木、树叶和天空，然后你说：它是多么的美。
1:04:51	We are not talking about what is beauty. Perhaps we will at the next meeting if we have time. But we live by sensation, the whole nervous organism is sensation. What is the relationship of sensation to desire? You understand my question? Because we are enquiring into desire. What is the relationship between sensation and desire? Why they are always instantly related. I wish I could always live under these trees with a nice house – and then desire: I must have a nice house under the tree. So what is the actual fact, the relationship, the communication, between sensation and what is called desire? Right? Is there an interval – please listen – is there an interval between sensation and the movement of desire, a gap, or they are instant. See something, grab it, if you want. So we are going to find out if there is a division, if there is a separation, if there is an interval. Right?	我们并没有在谈论什么是美。下一次集会上，如果我们有时间，我们也许会来谈谈它。然而，我们是依靠感官感觉而活的，我们整个神经系统的有机体就是感官感觉。那么感官感觉和欲望的关系是什么？你明白我的问题吗？因为我们正在探询欲望。欲望和感官感觉的关系是什么呢？为什么它们总是会立即关联起来？我希望我可以一直生活在这些树下面，有一幢树下的漂亮房子 ——然后欲望便产生了：我必须要有一幢树下面的漂亮的房子。所以，它们两者之间实际的状况、关系和交流是什么？ ——即感官感觉和所谓的“欲望”之间。对吗？它们两者之间是否存在一个间隔——请听好—— 在感官感觉和欲望的运动之间，是否存在一个间隔？一个间隙？还是说它们都是瞬间发生的。看到了某个东西，立即就把它抢过来——如果你想要它的话。所以我们要去发现一下：它们两者之间是否存在一道裂缝、一个间距、一个间隔？对吗？
1:06:48	There is sensation in seeing a beautiful garden, well kept, a lawn that has been mowed and rolled for the last 500 years. There are such lawns. And you see it and you say, my God, how marvellous it is, what depth, what beauty in that grass. And you wish you could have it in your back yard.	当你看到一座美丽的花园，你便会产生一些感官感觉，那座花园被保养得很好，草坪被修剪和滚压过了，过去500年以来它一直如此。的确存在这样的草坪。你看到了它，然后你说：我的天哪，它太漂亮了，看看这草坪的深度，看看这草坪的美吧。于是你希望你家的后院也能有这么一块草坪。
1:07:26	So watch it, please just watch it closely. Sensation, seeing that grass, rich, heavy, deep-rooted grass, then the sensation, then wanting it in your garden. So that is, desire is born – please listen – the moment, the second thought takes control or gives shape to sensation, and then at that second, desire is born. You follow? That is, seeing that lawn, protected behind walls, and seeing it, the sensation, and thought saying, I wish I had that. At that second desire is there. You understand?	所以请注意看，请密切仔细地观察一下它。先是有了感官感觉，不对，先看到了草坪，那些草丰富、厚重、深深扎根于地上，然后你有了某种感觉，接着你想要自己家的花园里也能有这样的草坪。所以，也就是说，欲望的产生，它是在 ——请听好—— 就在思想掌管了那种感官感觉或者把感官感觉具体形象化的那一刻、那一瞬间，在那一刻，欲望便产生了。你们理解了吗？也就是说，你看到了那片草坪，它们在墙后面被保护完好，你看到了它，于是产生了感官感觉，然后思想说：我希望我也能有这样的草坪。就在那一秒，欲望已经在那儿了。你理解了吗？
1:08:56	Now, we are asking, can there be a movement, an interval between the sensation and thought giving it a shape, an image. You understand? That is, sensation, which is natural, seeing that beautiful grass, that field, that lawn, and then thought comes in and says, I wish I had it. At that second, desire is. Right? That is the truth. So we are asking, can these two be separate for awhile? See a shirt in the window, go and touch it and say, what beautiful material it is, and leave it – we don't leave it there. We say, I wish I had it. Then desire is born. So, the interval can be kept – the gap can be kept separate for a while, then you will see the movement of desire, how it comes into being. Then you can stretch that space indefinitely or keep it very narrow. You understand what I am saying? When you understand this, then discipline is not necessary at all – control or suppress or fight it. You understand all this? Not verbally – in your heart. Then you will do it naturally. When you see something beautiful, it is beautiful, and there it is. You can't have those mountains nor that beautiful lawn. One can look at it, admire it, and say, how lovely, and feel it. That requires great alertness, awareness, a sense of deep attention to it. But we rarely give all that, except for money or for pleasure. This is much more stringent, requires a great deal of austerity. The word 'austerity' comes from Greek, which means 'dry mouth'. And then we have translated it, etc. – austere: a few clothes, one meal a day and all that stuff. But austerity is something tremendous, not the trivial stuff. To be so attentive to this movement of sensation and desire, and all the things we have talked about. To watch it very carefully, see every thought in you, not let it go by without understanding why it arose, what is its cause – that is real austerity. Not joining a monastery and all that kind of stuff. Austerity is in our daily life.	而现在，我们在问：是否存在一种运动，一个间隔，它可以存在于感官感觉和思想把感官感觉具体化、有形化之间。你们明白了吗？也就是说，我们先是有了感官感觉——这是很自然的事，你看到了那些美丽的小草，那片草地，那片草坪，然后思想介入进来，说：我希望我家也能有这样的草坪。就在那一刻，欲望便存在了。对吧？真实的情况就是如此。所以我们在问：这两者能否暂时分开一会儿呢？你看到了玻璃橱窗中的一件衬衫，于是你进入了店里，亲手触摸了那件衬衫，你说：它的材料是多么的棒啊，然后却没有就此打住——我们并没有就此打住。而是说：我希望我也能拥有这件衬衫。于是欲望便产生了。所以，如果你可以保持那个间隔，如果你可以保持这两者彼此分离片刻，那么你便能看到欲望的运动了，它是如何产生的。那时你便可以无限地拉伸那个空间，或者保持它的狭窄。你理解我所说的东西吗？当你理解了它，那时你就根本不需要什么戒律约束了 ——你不需要再去控制它、压抑它，或者与它斗争了。你们明白所有这些吗？不是口头上明白——而是内心真正明白它。那时你就会自然而然地去这么做了。当你看到了某个美丽的事物，它就是美丽的，然后就结束了。你是无法拥有那些山脉的，你也无法拥有那片美丽的草坪。你可以去欣赏它，去赞美它，说：它是多么的可爱，然后去感觉它。这需要极大的警觉和觉察，一种对它的深刻的关注感。但我们很少愿意付出这一切 ——除非是为了钱，或者为了快感。但这件事要严格得多，它需要极大的“朴素”。 “朴素（austerity）”这个词来自于希腊语，它的意思是“口干舌燥”。然后我们把这个词翻译诠释成了各种意思——把它翻译成“苦行”：穿很少的衣服，一天只吃一顿饭，等等所有这类事情。然而朴素是某种伟大的东西，它并不是那些琐碎小事。你要如此地去留心注意这种感官感觉和欲望的运动，以及所有那些我们谈论过的东西。去非常小心仔细地观察它，去看到你内心的每一个念头，在还没有了解这个念头为何出现之前，在没有了解它的原因之前，不要让念头溜走 ——这才是真正的朴素。而不是加入某个僧院，等等这类事情。朴素需要存在于我们的日常生活中。
1:13:26	So we have talked about all this. Tuesday and Thursday will be questions, next Saturday and Sunday we will talk about other things – pleasure, sorrow, pain, and all the implications of loneliness, death, if we have time, and what is religion, what is a religious mind. Is there something which thought has not touched at all? The limitless, the immense, the nameless. Which is not an invitation for you to come. It is part of our life, not all the buying, buying, buying and selling, going to office every day of one's life, conflict and all that. One must also give one's energy to find this out. Not merely live on faith, symbols and all that. So perhaps we will see each other the day after tomorrow or next Saturday and Sunday.	这些东西我们都已经讨论完了。我们将会在星期二和星期四的时候举行问答会，而下周六和周日，我们则会来谈论一下其他的主题 ——快感、苦难、痛苦，以及孤独全部的含意，如果有时间的话，我们还会来谈谈死亡，什么是宗教？什么是宗教心灵？是否存在某种还未被思想所染指触及的事物？那个无限之物，那个无比巨大的事物，那个不可名状的事物。我说这些并不是在邀请你们过来。它们都是我们生活的一部分，而不是那些买买买，以及卖卖卖，每天去办公室上班，就这样度过一生，充满冲突，等等这些。我们也必须要付出我们的精力去把它搞清楚。不仅仅是靠着信仰，靠着那些符号等等而活。所以，我们也许会在后天再见面的，或者会在下周六和周日见面。