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OJBR80CB10 - 宇宙秩序
与大卫▪博姆的第十次对谈
1980年6月7日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:19 Krishnamurti: Let’s forget the audience. We are not performing for your amusement. 克里希那穆提：让我们把观众忘掉。 我们并不是为了娱乐你们而在表演。
0:33 I think we left off the other day, if I remember rightly, when the mind is totally empty of all the things that thought has put there, then begins real meditation. But before we go further in that matter I would like to go back a bit and find out if the brain can ever be free not only from all illusion, any form of deception and whether it can have its own order, the order not introduced by thought, or make an effort, an endeavour to put things in their proper place. And also whether the brain, however much damaged it is – and most brains are damaged, by schock, by all kinds of stimulations – whether that brain can heal itself completely. That's what I would like to go into. 我想我们前几天讨论收尾时讲到了——如果我没记错的话—— 如果头脑彻底清空了 思想堆积在那里的一切，真正的冥想就开始了。 但是在我们继续探究这个问题之前， 我想稍微回过头去， 来弄清楚大脑究竟能否 不仅摆脱所有的幻觉、各种形式的欺骗， 而且它能否拥有自身的秩序， 不是思想引入的秩序， 也不是做出努力把事物放在它们恰当的位置上。 还有，大脑无论它受到了多么严重的损伤 ——而大部分大脑确实 因打击、因各种刺激而受损—— 这个大脑能否彻底地治愈自身。 这是我想探究的。
2:25 So first let’s begin by asking, if I may, is there an order which is not man-made, which is not the result of calculated order out of disturbance – an order that is probably very satisfying and so it is still part of the old conditioning – is there an order which is not man-made, thought-made? 所以，首先我们以这个问题开始——如果可以的话—— 有没有一种秩序 不是人为的， 不是从紊乱中设计出来的秩序的产物 ——那种秩序可能非常令人满意， 但它依然是旧有制约的一部分—— 有没有一种秩序不是人为的、思想建立的？
3:18 David Bohm: Are you referring to the mind? You can say the order of nature exists on its own. 大卫·

博姆：你指的是心灵吗？ 你可以说大自然的秩序是它本身就存在的。
3:26 K: The order of nature is order.

B: Yes, but not made by man. I am not sure that it is that kind of order. Is there cosmic order? 		克：大自然的秩序是秩序。

博姆：是的，但不是人为的。

克：但我说的不是那种 我并不确定它是不是那种秩序。 存在宇宙秩序吗？
3:49 B: But that is still the same thing you expand. The word ‘cosmic’ would ordinarily mean... 博姆：但那依然是你对同一种东西的扩展。 “宇宙”一词通常的含义是
3:56 K: ‘Cosmic’ means order. 克：宇宙意味着秩序。
3:58 B: Well it means order, but the whole order. 博姆：嗯，它意味着秩序，但是整体的秩序。
4:01 K: The whole order, I mean that. 克：整体的秩序，我就是这个意思。
4:03 B: Which includes the order of the universe and the order of the mind. 博姆：那就包括了宇宙的秩序和心灵的秩序。
4:13 K: What I am trying to find out is: is there order which man can never possibly conceive? You follow what...? Because any concept is still within the pattern of thought. So is there order which is not... 克：我想弄清楚的是： 有没有一种秩序 是人类绝不可能设想的？你明白是什么……？ 因为任何概念都依然处在思想的模式之中。 所以，有没有一种秩序并非
4:43 B: Well, how are we going to discuss it? 博姆：那我们要怎样讨论它呢？
4:46 K: That's what I want to discuss. I think we can. What is order? 克：这就是我想讨论的。我认为我们可以讨论。 什么是秩序？
4:58 Narayan: We were just discussing it. 那拉扬：我们刚才就在讨论。
5:02 K: We were discussing what?

N: At the table. 		克：我们刚才在讨论什么？

那拉扬：在餐桌旁的时候。
5:04 K: At lunch time? 克：午餐时间？
5:06 N: There is mathematical order. And generally mathematical order is the order of subtler orders, science, order behind any particular order. That is the highest kind of order known to any discipline. 那拉扬：存在数学秩序。而通常 数学秩序是更细微的秩序比如科学的秩序， 是任何特定秩序背后的秩序。 它是任何学科都熟知的最高形式的秩序。
5:27 K: Would the mathematicians agree that mathematics is complete order? 克：数学家们会同意 数学是完善的秩序吗？
5:37 N: Yes, mathematics itself is part of the co-ordination of order. 那拉扬：是的，数学本身就是秩序间协作的一部分。
5:42 K: Would they agree to that? 克：他们会同意这一点吗？
5:44 B: Depends on the mathematician. But there is a well-known mathematician called von Neumann who defined mathematics as the relationship of relationships – by relationship, he really meant order – order working within the field of order itself, not on something else. 博姆：那取决于那个数学家。 但是有个著名的数学家叫冯诺依曼， 他把数学定义为“关系之间的关系”， 而他说的关系实际上指的就是秩序， 在秩序本身的领域之内运行的秩序，而不是在别的东西上。
6:03 K: Order working in the field of order. 克：在秩序的领域之内运行的秩序。
6:09 B: Rather than working on some object. 博姆：而不是在某些物体上运行的。
6:11 K: Yes, yes, that is what I am trying to get at. 克：是的，是的，那就是我想说明的。
6:19 B: So, the most creative mathematicians are having a perception of this, which may be called pure order, still limited because it has to be expressed mathematically in terms of formulae or equations. 博姆：所以，最具创造力的数学家 对此是有所洞察的，可以把它叫做“纯粹的秩序”， 但无疑它依然有某种局限 依然是局限的，因为它必须用数学的方式 通过公式或者方程来表达。
6:47 K: Is order part of disorder as we know it? 克：秩序是我们所知的失序的一部分吗？
6:55 B: That's not a question what we mean by disorder. It is not possible to give a coherent definition of disorder because disorder is inherently... You can't give a coherent account

K: Why not? 		博姆：这并不是一个“我们所说的失序是什么”的问题。 不可能给“失序”下一个自身就成立的定义， 因为失序本身就是 你无法给它一个自身就成立的表述。

克：为什么不能？
7:12 B: Because disorder is what violates order. Anything that actually happens has an order. Now, you can call a certain thing disorder if you like. 博姆：因为失序是对秩序的违背。 实际发生的任何事都具有某种秩序。 而只要你愿意的话就可以把某件事情叫做失序。
7:21 K: Are you saying that anything that happens is order? 克：你是说发生的任何事都是秩序？
7:25 B: Some order. If the body is not functioning rightly – a cancer is growing – that is a certain order in the cancer cell, it is just growing in a certain way, too fast. It has a different pattern which tends to break down the body, but the whole thing is a certain kind of order. It has not violated the laws of nature. But relative to some context you could say it is disorder because, if we are talking of the health of the body then the cancer is called disorder. But in itself... 博姆：某种秩序。如果身体没有正确地运转， 生了癌症，那也是癌细胞当中的某种秩序， 只不过以某种过快的方式在生长而已。 它具有一种不同的模式，会倾向于弄垮身体， 但这整件事情也是某种秩序。 它并没有违背自然规律。 但是在某种相对的背景下，你可以说那是失序， 因为，如果我们谈的是身体的健康， 那么癌症就可以叫做“失序”。但是它本身
8:02 K: Cancer has its own order. Correct. 克：癌症有它自身的秩序。没错。
8:07 B: But it isn't compatible with the order of the growth of the body. 博姆：但是它与身体成长的秩序互不相容。
8:13 K: So what do we mean by order? Is there such a thing as order? 克：那我们说的“秩序”指什么？存在“秩序”这种东西吗？
8:20 B: Order is a perception, we were saying. We can’t get hold of order.

K: No, of course. 		博姆：秩序是一种洞察，我们之前说到过。 我们无法抓住秩序。

克：不能，当然。
8:28 N: Generally when we say order, it is in relation to a framework or in relation to a certain field. Order always has that connotation. And when you say order of order, as the study of mathematics, some aspects of mathematics, you are going away from the limited approach to order. 那拉扬：通常当我们说到秩序，它是与某个框架 或者某个领域有关的。 秩序始终有那样一种含义。 而当你说“秩序的秩序”， 就像研究数学，数学的某些方面， 你就离开了秩序那个有限的范围。
8:55 B: We are not ordering things any more. 博姆：我们不再为事物排序。
8:59 Most mathematics starts with the order of the numbers, like 1, 2, 3, 4, and builds on that a very elaborate hierarchy. You can see what is meant by the order of the numbers, there is a series of relationships which are constant, for example. In the order of the numbers you have the simplest example of order. 数学大都是从数的顺序开始切入的， 比如1、2、3、4，然后在此基础上建立起一个非常精细的等级体系。 你可以看到数的顺序是什么含义， 比如说，有一系列恒定的关系。 从数的顺序中，你就有了秩序最简单的例子。
9:27 N: A new order was created with the discovery of zero, a new set of orders came into being. And is mathematical order and the order in nature a part of a bigger field? Or is it a localised form? 那拉扬：发现零之后，又建立了一种新秩序， 一套新秩序就产生了。 那么数学秩序和大自然的秩序 是一个更大领域的一部分吗？ 还是它只是一种局部的形式？
10:06 K: The brain, the mind is so contradictory, so bruised, it can’t find order. 克：大脑，心灵是如此矛盾重重， 创伤如此严重， 乃至它无法找到秩序。
10:28 B: Yes, but what kind of order does it want? 博姆：是的，但是它想要哪种秩序呢？
10:32 K: It wants an order in which it will be safe. It won’t be bruised, it won’t be shocked, it won’t feel the pain of physical or psychological pain. 克：它需要一种能从中感到安全的秩序。 它不会受伤，不会受到惊吓， 不会感觉到身体或者心理痛苦。
10:46 B: The whole point of order is not to have contradiction. That is the whole purpose of mathematics. 博姆：秩序的全部重点在于没有矛盾。 这就是数学的全部意义所在。
10:52 K: Yes. But the brain is in contradiction. 克：是的。但大脑是处在矛盾中的。
10:56 B: Yes, and in some way something has gone wrong, we said it took a wrong turn. 博姆：是的，有什么东西不知怎的出了差错， 我们说过它转错了弯。
11:07 You could say that if the body is growing wrongly we have a cancer cell, which is two contradictory orders: one is the growing of the cancer and the other is the normal order of the body. They cannot stay side by side. 你可以说，如果身体出了问题， 我们长了癌细胞，那就有了两种互相矛盾的秩序： 一个是癌症的发生，另一个是 身体的正常秩序。它们两个不能并存。
11:23 K: I want to go into something which is: can the mind, the brain, be totally free of all organised order? 克：我想探究的是这个： 心灵，大脑，能否彻底摆脱所有组织化的秩序？
11:43 B: We have to ask why you want it to be free of organised order and what you mean by organised order. 博姆：我们得问问你为什么想让它摆脱组织化的秩序， 还有你说的“组织化的秩序”是什么意思。
11:49 K: Then it becomes a pattern. 克：那样它就变成了一种模式。
11:52 B: You mean a fixed order, an imposed order. 博姆：你是说一种固定的秩序，一种强加的秩序。
11:55 K: Yes, a fixed order, or fixed pattern. Imposed or self-imposed. Because we are trying to investigate, at least I am trying to find out whether the brain can ever be free from all the impositions, pressures, wounds, bruises, all the trivialities of existence pushing it in different directions, whether it can be completely free of all that. If it cannot, meditation has no meaning. 克：是的，固定的秩序，或者固定的模式。 外在强加的或者自己强加的。 因为我们想探究的是， 至少我想弄清楚 大脑究竟能否摆脱所有强加的东西， 各种压力、伤害、创伤，生活中所有的琐事 把它往各个方向拉扯， 它能否彻底摆脱那一切。 如果不能，冥想就毫无意义。
13:03 B: You could go further and say, probably life has no meaning if you cannot free it of all that. 博姆：你可以进一步说，也许生命也毫无意义， 如果你不能摆脱那一切的话。
13:10 K: No, I wouldn’t say life has no meaning. 克：不，我不会说生命没有意义。
13:12 B: If it goes on indefinitely? 博姆：如果它一如既往永无休止呢？
13:14 K: Indefinitely like that, yes. If it goes on as it has done indefinitely, for millennia, life has no meaning. But to find out if it has a meaning at all – I think there is a meaning – mustn't the brain be totally free of all this? 克：像那样永无休止，是的。如果它还像过去那样 无止境地继续数千年，生命确实毫无意义。 然而，若要探明它究竟有没有意义 ——我想是有意义的—— 大脑难道不是必须彻底摆脱那一切吗？
13:41 B: What you call disorder... What is the source of what we call disorder? We could say it is like a cancer, almost, going on inside the brain. It is moving in a way which is not compatible with the health of the brain. It grows as time goes on, accretion from one generation to another. 博姆：你所说的失序 我们所说的失序其根源是什么？ 我们可以说它差不多就像癌症一样， 发生在大脑里面。 它的运行方式跟 大脑的健康是不相容的。它随着时间在壮大、 增加，一代接着一代。
14:11 K: But one generation after another, the same pattern being repeated! 克：但是一代接着一代还在重复着同样的模式！
14:16 B: It tends to even accumulate from one generation to another through tradition. It is almost the same question as to ask somebody how are we going to stop these cancer cells from taking over. 博姆：它甚至看起来是一代接一代地 通过传统在累加的。 这个问题差不多就像问一个人 我们如何才能让这些癌细胞停止扩散。
14:33 K: That is what I want to get at. How is this pattern, which has been set, and which has, generation after generation, accumulated, how is that to end, be broken through? That is the real question at the back of my mind. 克：这就是我想探明的。 这种模式，已经被设定了， 是世世代代积累起来的， 要如何才能终止它、打破它？ 这就是我内心深处真正的问题。
14:57 B: Another question: why does the brain provide the soil for this stuff to go on, to grow? 博姆：另一个问题是：大脑为什么 为这种东西提供了继续存在、生长的土壤？
15:04 K: That may be merely tradition, habit. 克：那可能就是传统、习惯。
15:09 B: Why does it stay in that? 博姆：它为什么待在那里面？
15:12 K: It may be that it is so afraid of something new taking place, because in the old tradition it takes refuge. It feels safe. 克：也许是因为它是如此害怕有新事物发生， 因为它在旧有的传统里 寻求庇护，它觉得安全。
15:30 B: Then we question why does the brain deceive itself? It seems that this pattern of disorder involves the fact that the brain deceives itself about this disorder. It doesn’t seem to be able to see it clearly. 博姆：然后我们就得问为什么大脑要欺骗自己？ 似乎这个失序的模式隐含了这个事实： 关于这种失序，大脑欺骗了它自己。 它似乎无法看清失序。
15:54 N: Also when you say order, in my mind, there is an intelligence behind an order which makes use of it. I have a certain purpose, I create an order and when the purpose is over I set aside that order. So, order has an intelligence which works it out. In usual parlance that is the connotation. But you are referring to something else. 那拉扬：而且当你说到“秩序”，在我看来， 秩序背后有一种智慧 在运用那种秩序。 我有某个目的，我建立了一种秩序， 当那个目的达成了，我就会抛开那个秩序。 所以，秩序是有一种让它起作用的智慧的。 在通常的语境下就是这个意思。 但是你指的是另一种东西。
16:25 K: I am asking, I and he, whether this pattern of generations can be broken and why the brain has accepted that pattern in spite of all the conflicts, misery, and goes on in the same way, and is it possible to break that pattern? That is all I am really asking. 克：我问的是，我和他在问，世世代代以来的这种模式 能否被打破，为什么大脑接受了这种模式， 即使存在这么些冲突、痛苦，然后还这样一如既往， 有没有可能打破这种模式？ 这就是我真正在问的。
16:51 N: I am saying the same thing in a different way. If an order has served its purpose can it be put aside because it is no longer useful or adequate. 那拉扬：我是在用另一种方式说同一件事。 如果一种秩序已经完成了自己的使命，能不能把它抛开， 因为它已经不再有用或者不再恰当了。
17:03 K: But apparently it can’t! Psychologically, he can’t, he doesn’t. Take an ordinary human being like any of us, it goes on, repeating fears, sorrow, misery, all that is part of its daily meal. Dr Bohm asks, why does it go on, why doesn’t it break through? And we say, is it so heavily conditioned that it cannot see its way out of it? Or it may be merely the constant repetition, so the brain has become dull. 克：可是显然没有！ 心理上，他办不到，他没有。 就拿像我们任何人一样的一个普通人来讲， 他继续着、重复着恐惧、悲伤、痛苦， 这一切都是他家常便饭的一部分。 博姆博士问，头脑为什么会延续过去， 它为什么不突破出来？ 而我们说，是不是因为它受的制约太沉重， 乃至它看不到出路？ 还是说，也许就是因为不停在重复， 所以大脑已经变迟钝了。
18:04 N: So the momentum of repetition is there. And you can’t get out of it. 那拉扬：所以重复的动力确实存在。而你就是无法脱离出来。
18:10 K: That momentum of repetition makes the mind sluggish, mechanical. And in that mechanical sluggishness it takes refuge and says, ‘Leave, it’s all right, I can go on.' That’s what most human beings do. 克：重复的动力让头脑变得迟钝、机械。 而它就在这种机械的迟钝中寻求着庇护， 说，“走开，这挺好的，我可以照此继续。” 这就是大多数人所做的。
18:36 B: That is part of the disorder, to think that way is a manifestation of disorder. 博姆：这就是失序的一部分， 那样想就是失序的表现。
18:41 K: Of course. 克：当然。
18:48 N: Do you connect order with intelligence? Or is order something that exists on its own? Any kind of intelligence. 那拉扬：你会把秩序和智慧联系在一起吗？ 还是说，秩序是某种独立存在的东西？ 任何一种智慧。
18:58 B: In which case? Certainly, intelligence involves order, intelligence requires the perception of order in an orderly way, without contradiction. But, in the terms that we were discussing before, we ourselves don’t create this, we don’t impose this order but rather it is natural. 博姆：在哪种情况下？当然，智慧包含了秩序， 智慧需要洞察到秩序， 以一种有序的方式，没有任何矛盾。 但是，就我们之前讨论的内容而言， 我们自己并没有建立这种秩序， 我们并没有施加这种秩序，而是它是自然出现的。
19:33 K: So, let’s come back. I am the ordinary man. I see that I am caught, that my whole way of living and my thinking and my attitudes, beliefs, is the result of enormous length of time. Time is, as we went into it, my whole existence. In the past, which cannot be changed, I take refuge. 克：所以，我们说回来。我是一个普通人。 我发现我被困住了，我的整个生活方式 和我的思想，还有的我的态度、信念 都是这漫长的时间的产物。 时间，正如我们之前探讨的，就是我的整个存在。 过去无法改变，而我就在其中寻求庇护。
20:11 B: If we were to talk to the ordinary man, the first thing he would feel is he doesn’t really understand time. That time is something that happens to him. 博姆：如果我们问一个普通人， 他首先会感觉到他并不真的懂得时间的含义。 那个时间只是发生在了他身上的一件事而已。
20:21 K: Yes, but we went into that. I am saying I am an ordinary man and I see, after talking over with you, I see that my whole existence is based on time. Time is the past, and in that the brain takes refuge. 克：是的，但是我们探讨过这些了。 我说我是个普通人，而且我看到了， 在和你详谈之后， 我看到了我的整个存在都是基于时间的。 时间就是过去，而大脑从中找到了庇护。
20:43 B: How does it take refuge? 博姆：它是如何找到庇护的？
20:46 K: Because the past cannot be changed. 克：因为过去无法改变。
20:50 B: But then people also think that the future can change, so the Communists have said, give up the past, we are going to change. 博姆：但那样的话人们会认为未来是可以改变的， 所以共产主义者才说了，放弃过去， 我们将来会改变。
20:58 K: But I can’t give up the past. We think we can give up the past. 克：但我是无法放弃过去的。我们以为我们能放开过去。
21:03 B: That's the second point: even those who try to give up the past, those who don’t want to take refuge in the past, still can’t give it up. 博姆：那是第二点：即使那些试图放弃过去的人， 那些不想在过去中寻求庇护的人，依然无法放弃它。
21:11 K: That is just my point. 克：这就是我想说的意思。
21:13 B: So it seems, whichever way you do it, you are stuck. 博姆：所以看起来无论你怎么做，你都被困住了。
21:20 K: So, the next step is, why does the brain accept this way of living, and why doesn’t it break it down? Is it laziness? Is it, in breaking it down, it has no hope? 克：所以，下一步就是，大脑为什么 接受了这种生活方式，为什么不把它打破？ 是因为懒惰吗？是因为在打破过程中，它看不到希望吗？
21:47 B: That is still the same question. 博姆：那还是同一个问题。
21:49 K: Of course it is the same question. 克：当然是同一个问题。
21:51 B: Going from past to future. 博姆：从过去走向未来。
21:54 K: So what is it to do? I think this is applicable to most people, isn’t it? So what is there to be done? 克：那它该怎么办呢？ 我认为这个问题适用于大多数人，不是吗？ 那要做些什么呢？
22:07 B: We haven’t understood why it does this, so it is not clear what to say. Say this behaviour is disorderly, irrational and so on, and people have said, ‘let’s give up the past' but we find we can’t. 博姆：我们还没明白为什么它会这么做， 所以不清楚该说什么。 比如说，这个行为是失序的、不理性的，等等， 而人们也说了，“让我们放弃过去”，但我们发现我们办不到。
22:23 K: We can’t.

B: Why can’t we? 		克：我们办不到。

博姆：我们为什么办不到？
22:30 K: Why can’t we give up the past. Wait, sir. If I give up the past I have no existence. 克：我们为什么不能放弃过去。等一下，先生。 如果我放弃了过去，我就没有存在感了。
22:47 B: You have to clarify that because some people would say... 博姆：你必须说清楚这一点，因为有些人会说
22:52 K: It is simple: if I give up all my remembrances, etc., I have nothing, I am nothing. 克：这很简单：如果我放弃我所有的记忆，等等， 我就一无所有了，我就什么都不是了。
23:02 B: Some people would look at it differently, like the Marxists. Marx himself said that it is necessary to transform the conditions of human existence and that will remove this past. 博姆：有些人对此会持不同看法，比如马克思主义者。 马克思本人说过，有必要转变人类的生存条件， 而那将消灭这个过去。
23:19 K: But it has not done. It cannot be done. 克：可是这点并没有实现。也不可能实现。
23:24 B: When he tries to transform it he still works from the past. 博姆：当他试图转变它的时候，就依然是根据过去在工作。
23:29 K: Yes, that's what I am saying. 克：是的，这就是我说的意思。
23:34 B: If you say, don’t depend on the past at all, then what are we going to do? 博姆：如果你说，完全不要依赖过去， 那我们该做什么呢？
23:39 K: Yes, I am nothing! Is that the reason why we cannot possibly give up the past? Because my existence, my way of thinking, my life, everything is from the past. And if you say, wipe that out, what have I left? 克：是的，我就什么都不是了！ 这就是我们为什么不可能放弃过去的原因吗？ 因为我的存在，我的思维方式，我的生活， 一切都是来自于过去的。 如果你说，把那些都抹掉，那我还剩什么呀？
24:08 B: We obviously have to keep certain things from the past like useful knowledge and technology. 博姆：我们显然必须保留某些来自于过去的东西， 比如有用的知识和技术。
24:16 Now suppose we keep that part of the past and wipe out all the parts of the past which are contradictory. 现在假设我们保留那部分过去， 同时抹掉过去当中所有那些互相矛盾的部分。
24:23 K: Which are all psychological, contradictory, etc. What? What is left? Just going to the office? There is nothing left! Is that the reason why we cannot give it up? 克：都是心理上的，互相矛盾的部分，等等。 那还剩下什么？只是去办公室上班吗？ 什么都没剩！ 这就是我们无法放弃的原因吗？
24:41 B: There is still a contradiction in that, if you say what is left, you are still asking for the past. 博姆：这里面还是存在一个矛盾， 如果你说还剩什么，你就依然是从过去发问的。
24:47 K: Of course. 克：当然。
24:51 B: Are you saying simply that when people say they are giving up the past, they just simply are not doing it? They merely turn it into another question which avoids the issue. 博姆：我们是不是只是说当人们说 他们放弃了过去，其实他们根本没有那么做？ 他们只是把它变成了另一个问题，回避了真正的问题。
25:03 K: Because my whole being is the past, modified, changed, but it has its roots in the past. 克：因为我的整个存在就是过去， 调整、改动一下，但它依然扎根于过去。
25:17 B: If you said ‘Give all that up and in the future you will have something different, a lot better’ people would be attracted. 博姆：如果你说“放弃那一切，将来你就会拥有 另一种好很多的东西”，那么人们就会被吸引。
25:25 K: But the ‘better’ is still from the past. 克：但那个更好的东西依然是来自于过去的。
25:29 B: Perhaps it could even be open and creative. People want to be assured of at least something that is going to be there. 博姆：也许它还会更加开放和富有创造性。 人们想获得一种保证，至少会有些什么 等在那里。
25:41 K: That is just it, sir! There is nothing! I want to be assured, as a human being, of something to which I can cling to, can hold on to. 克：就是这样，先生！什么都没有！ 我想得到保证，作为一个人， 能得到某种我可以依附、可以抓住的东西。
25:56 B: Yes, look forward to, reach for.

K: Reach. 		博姆：是的，可以期待，可以抓取。

克：可以拿到。
25:59 B: They feel, not clinging to the past but reaching for something, that’s the common feeling. 博姆：他们觉得，不抓住过去， 但是可以够到某种东西，这就是通常的想法。
26:05 K: If I reach something it is still the past. 克：如果我够到了什么东西，它就依然是属于过去的。
26:10 B: Though that is not often obvious because people say it is a big, new revolutionary situation. But it has its roots in the past. And the past is disorderly. 博姆：尽管这一点通常不是那么明显，因为 人们会说那是一种了不起的、革命性的新境界。 但它依然是根植于过去的。而过去就是失序的。
26:22 K: As long as I have my roots in the past there cannot be order. 克：只要我依然扎根于过去，就不可能有秩序。
26:28 B: Because the past is pervaded with disorder?

K: Yes, disorder. And is my mind, my brain, willing to see that there is absolutely nothing if I give up the past, you follow, sir? 		博姆：因为过去被失序淹没了？

克：是的，失序。 而我的心、我的大脑是不是愿意看到 如果我放弃了过去， 就彻底一无所有了，你明白吗，先生？
26:57 B: You say there is nothing to reach for. 博姆：你是说没有可以抓取的东西了。
27:00 K: Nothing, I mean there is no movement. Therefore I cannot possibly give up the past. So, people dangle in front of me a carrot and I, like a silly person, I follow it. So if I have no carrots, nothing as a reward or punishment, how is this past to be dissolved? Because otherwise I am still living in the field of time. And therefore, it is still man-made. So what shall I do? Am I willing to face absolute emptiness? Right, sir? 克：什么都没有。我的意思是不再有任何活动。 所以我不可能放弃过去。 所以，人们在我眼前吊了根胡萝卜， 而我，就像一个傻瓜一样跟着它走。 所以，如果我没有胡萝卜，没有任何东西作为奖励或者惩罚， 那这个过去要怎样被消除掉？ 因为否则的话我就依然活在了时间的领域里。 所以那依然是人为的东西。 那我该怎么办？ 我愿意面对这彻底的空无吗？对吗，先生？
28:20 B: What will you tell somebody not willing, who feels unable to. 博姆：如果有人不愿意，觉得自己做不到，你会跟他说什么？
28:24 K: I am not bothered. If somebody says, ‘Sorry, I can’t do all this nonsense’ you say, ‘Well, carry on’. But I am willing to let my past go completely, which means there is no effort, no reward, no punishment, no carrot – nothing. And the brain is willing to face this extraordinary state, totally new to it, of being, of existing in a state of nothingness. That is appallingly frightening. 克：我不会费事说什么的。如果有人说，“抱歉， 这些乱七八糟的事我做不到”，你会说，“好的，那照旧吧。” 但是我愿意彻底放开我的过去， 也就是说没有努力，没有奖励，没有惩罚， 没有胡萝卜，什么都没有。 大脑愿意面对 这种非同寻常的状态，对它而言是全新的 存在状态、生命状态，处于一无所有的状态中。 这真的非常可怕。
29:14 B: Even these words will have their meaning rooted in the past and that’s where fear comes in. 博姆：哪怕是这些词都带有根植于过去的含义， 所以恐惧才会进入。
29:20 K: We have understood that, the word is not the thing. 克：我们已经明白了这一点，词语并非事物本身。
29:22 B: But then that is the cause of the fear, from the roots in the past this notion of nothingness is frightening. 博姆：但那就是恐惧的来源， 来自于过去当中的根源，这个一无所有的想法令人恐惧。
29:30 K: My brain says, ‘I am willing to do that, I am willing to face this absolute nothingness, emptiness' because it has seen for itself all the refuges, the various places where it has taken refuge are illusions, so it has finished with all that. 克：我的大脑说，“我愿意这么做， 我愿意面对这绝对的空无”， 因为它亲自看到了所有的庇护所， 它寻求庇护的各种地方都是幻觉， 所以它了结了那一切。
30:04 B: But this leaves out something... you also brought up, the question of the damage or the scars to the brain. That the brain, if it were undamaged possibly could do that fairly readily. 博姆：但这里漏掉了一件事 你之前也提出了大脑所受的损害 或者伤疤的问题。 大脑如果消除了损伤，也许很容易就可以做到了。
30:21 K: Now, can I discover what has caused damage to the brain? One of the factors is strong emotions. 克：那么，我能发现是什么造成了对大脑的损伤吗？ 一个因素就是强烈的情绪。
30:34 B: Yes. Strong sustained emotions. 博姆：是的。强烈的持续的情绪。
30:36 K: Strong sustained emotions, like hatred. 克：强烈的持续的情绪，比如仇恨。
30:39 B: Probably a flash of emotion doesn’t do it but people keep it up. 博姆：可能一瞬间的情绪并不会造成损伤，但人们让它持续了下去。
30:44 K: Yes, of course. Hatred, anger, a sense of violence, those are obviously, not only a shock, they wound the brain. Right? 克：是的，当然。仇恨，愤怒，一种暴力感， 这些显然不只是一种打击， 它们会让大脑受伤，对吗？
31:02 B: Well, excessive excitation too. Getting excessively excited by other means such as pleasure... 博姆：嗯，过度兴奋也是一样。 因其他方式而变得过度兴奋，比如快感
31:08 K: Drugs, etc. Excessive excitement, excessive anger, violence, hatred, all that. The natural responses dont damage the brain. Now my brain is damaged – suppose – it has been damaged through anger. 克：药物，等等。过度兴奋， 过度愤怒，暴力，仇恨，那一切。 自然的反应并不会损伤大脑。 现在我的大脑受损了，假设 它因愤怒受损了。
31:43 B: You could say that probably nerves are connected in the wrong way and the connections are too fixed. There is evidence that these things will actually change the structure. 博姆：你可以说也许神经产生了 错误的连结，这些连结又太牢固了。 有证据显示这些东西确实会改变结构。
31:56 K: Structure, yes. That is, can I have an insight into the whole nature of disturbance – anger, violence, they are all part of the same – can I have an insight into that? And so, that insight changes the cells of the brain which have been wounded. 克：结构，是的。也就是说， 我能否洞察烦恼的整个本质 ——愤怒，暴力，它们都是同一种东西的一部分—— 我能否对此有一份洞察？ 于是，那份洞察 就改变了受伤的脑细胞。
32:29 B: Possibly it would start them healing. 博姆：可能它就会开始治愈那些脑细胞了。
32:32 K: All right. Start them healing. That healing must be immediate. 克：好的，开始治愈它们。 这种治愈必须是即刻发生的。
32:39 B: In some way it may take time in the sense that if wrong connections have been made it is going to take time to redistribute the material, but the beginning of it, it seems to me, is immediate. 博姆：从某种意义上来说，也许会花些时间，因为 如果错误的连结已经建立了， 那就得花时间重新分配那些物质， 但是这个过程的开始，在我看来是立刻的。
32:51 K: All right, take it that way. Can I do this? I have listened to you, I have carefully read, I have thought about all this and I see that anger, violence, hatred, all those excessive... or any form of excitement does bruise the brain. And the insight into this whole business does bring about a mutation in the cells. It is so! And the nerves and all their adjustments will be as rapid as possible. 克：好的，可以那么说。我能这么做吗？ 我听了你讲话，我认真读了书， 我思考了这一切，看到了那种危险， 暴力，仇恨，所有那些过度的 或者任何形式的刺激确实都会损伤大脑。 而对这整件事的洞察确实会带来 脑细胞的突变。确实如此！ 而各种神经，它们的各种调整 会以极快的速度发生。
33:48 B: Same thing happens with cancer cells. Sometimes the cancer suddenly stops growing and it goes the other way, for some reason that's unknown but a change must have taken place in those cells. 博姆：同样的情况也会发生在癌细胞身上。 有时候癌症突然就停止恶化了， 并且往相反的方向发展，原因未知， 但那些细胞中肯定发生了一种变化。
34:03 K: Would it be, sir, if I may ask – I may be on the wrong track – – when the brain cells... there is a fundamental change there, the cancer process stops? 克：会不会是——恕我这么发问，我也可能说错了—— 当脑细胞……发生了一种彻底的变化， 癌症过程就停止了？
34:18 B: Yes, fundamentally it stops and it starts to dismantle. 博姆：是的，从根本上停止了，它开始消散。
34:21 K: Dismantle, yes, that's it. 克：消散，是的，就是这样。
34:27 N: You are saying it sets into movement the right kind of connections.

B: Yes. 		那拉扬：你是说它开始建立 正确的连结了。

博姆：是的。
34:32 N: And stops the wrong connections? 那拉扬：同时停止了错误的连结？
34:34 B: Or even starts to dismantle the wrong connections. 博姆：甚至开始拆除错误的连结。
34:37 N: So, the beginning is made and it is made now. 那拉扬：所以，这个过程开始了，而且马上就开始了。
34:41 B: At one moment, yes.

K: That is the insight. 		博姆：立刻，是的。

克：这就是洞察。
34:44 N: That is the insight. But there is no question of time involved because the right movement has started. 那拉扬：这就是洞察。但是其中不涉及时间的问题， 因为正确的活动已经开始了。
34:53 K: What? What? What? 克：什么？什么？什么？
34:56 N: What David is saying is, there is no time involved because the right movement has started now. 那拉扬：大卫说的是，其中不涉及时间， 因为正确的活动现在就开始了。
35:02 K: Yes, of course. 克：是的，当然。
35:04 N: There is another thing which I want to ask about the past. For most people past means pleasure. 那拉扬：我还想问另一个关于过去的问题。 对大多数人来说，过去就意味着快感。
35:12 K: Not only the pleasure, the remembrance of all the things. 克：不只是快感，还有对所有事情的回忆。
35:16 N: One starts disliking pleasure only when it becomes stale, or it leads to difficulties, but one wants pleasure all the time. 那拉扬：一个人开始不喜欢快感，只在它变得不新鲜了 或者造成了问题的时候，但是他一直希望得到快感。
35:27 Now, it is very difficult to distinguish between pleasure and the staleness or the difficulties it brings in because one wants to keep the pleasure afresh and not have the staleness or the problems it brings. I mean the normal human being. I am asking you: what is your attitude to pleasure? 然而，很难区分快感 和它带来的那种陈旧或者那些问题， 因为人想让快感保持新鲜， 同时不想要它带来的那种陈旧感或者那些问题。 我是说普通人。 我问你的是：你对快感的态度是什么？
35:51 K: What do you mean, my attitude. 克：你说“我的态度”是什么意思？
35:53 N: How does one deal with this immense problem of pleasure in which most people are caught because that is the past. 那拉扬：一个人要如何处理快感这个巨大的问题， 大多数人都困在其中，因为那就是过去。
36:01 K: Pleasure is always the past, there is no – wait a minute. There is no pleasure at the moment it is happening. It comes in later when it is remembered. So, the remembrance is the past. And I said, I, as a human being, am willing to face nothingness, which means wipe out all that! 克：快感从来都是过去，其中没有——等一下。 在它发生的那一瞬间是没有快感的。 稍后当它被记住的时候，快感才出现。 所以，回忆就是过去。而我说过， 我，作为一个人，愿意面对空无， 那就意味着彻底抹掉那一切！
36:37 N: How does one wipe out this tremendous instinctfor pleasure? It almost seems to be an instinct. 那拉扬：一个人如何抹掉追求快感这种强大的本能呢？ 它几乎看起来就是一种本能。
36:50 K: No, we went into that. What is the nature of pleasure? What is pleasure? It's a constant remembrance of things past which have happened. 克：不，我们探讨过这个了。 快感的本质是什么？快感是什么？ 它是对过去已经发生的事情的不断回忆。
37:07 B: And also the expectation of things that will happen. 博姆：还有对将要发生的事情的期待。
37:11 K: Of course, always from the past. 克：当然，始终是来自于过去的。
37:14 B: You usually made the distinction of pleasure and enjoyment. 博姆：你通常会区分快感和喜悦。
37:18 N: Of course, but I am saying, still the human being, even though he understands what you are saying, he is sort of held back in this field. 那拉扬：当然，但我说的是， 还是那个人，即使他明白了 你说的话，他还是被困在了这个领域中。
37:29 K: No, Narayan, because he is not willing to face this emptiness. 克：不，那拉扬，因为他不愿意 面对这种空无。
37:42 Pleasure is not compassion. Pleasure is not love. But perhaps, if there is this mutation, compassion is stronger than pleasure. So, pleasure has no place in the compassion. the perception of order may be stronger than pleasure. People really concerned about something they are doing with order – the artist or the scientist – the pleasure plays no role at that moment. 快感不是慈悲。快感不是爱。 但是，或许，如果发生了这种突变， 慈悲比快感还要强烈。 所以，快感在慈悲中是没有一席之地的。

博姆：甚至，简单来说就是秩序要强大过 对秩序的洞察也许比快感还要强烈。 真正关注一件事的人，就是依秩序在工作的 ——艺术家或者科学家—— 在那一刻快感是没有位置的。
38:24 N: That is what I am trying to imply, it has a certain strength which can keep that in its place. 那拉扬：这就是我想说明的， 它有一种力量，可以让事物各归其位。
38:30 K: Compassion has got tremendous strength, an incalculable strength, pleasure is nowhere in it. 克：慈悲具有巨大的力量， 无法估量的力量，当中没有快感的位置。
38:40 N: But what happens to a man in whom pleasure is dominant? 那拉扬：但是一个被快感主导的人会怎样？
38:45 K: We said that. As long as he is unwilling to face this extraordinary emptiness he'll keep on with the old pattern. 克：我们说过了。只要他不愿意面对这 非同寻常的空无，他就会继续旧有的模式。
38:57 B: We have to say this man had a damaged brain too, certain brain damage which causes this emphasis on sustained pleasure, as well as the fear, the anger and the hate. 博姆：我们不得不说这个人也有一个受损的大脑， 有某种脑损伤，导致了对延续快感的这种强调， 还有恐惧、愤怒和仇恨。
39:10 K: The damaged brain is healed when there is insight. 克：当洞察发生时，受损的大脑就被治愈了。
39:21 B: But many people would say, ‘I understand that hate and anger are products of the damaged brain’ but they would find it hard to say pleasure is the product of the damaged brain. 博姆：但是很多人会说， 我明白仇恨和愤怒是受损大脑的产物， 但是他们会觉得很难说 快感也是受损大脑的产物。
39:32 K: Oh yes, of course it is. 克：噢，是的，当然是。
39:34 B: Whereas you say there is true enjoyment, which is not the product of the damaged brain, which is confused with pleasure... 博姆：然而你说还有真正的喜悦， 它不是受损大脑的产物， 这种喜悦容易跟快感混淆
39:44 N: That is the difficulty, because if pleasure gives rise to anger, anger is part of the damaged brain. 那拉扬：这就是困难所在，因为如果快感引发了 愤怒，那愤怒就是受损大脑的一部分。
39:53 K: And also, the demand for pleasure. 克：还有对快感的需求。
39:57 B: Which may give rise to anger, hatred and frustration, fear. 博姆：那会引发愤怒、仇恨、沮丧和恐惧。
40:02 K: If I can’t have the pleasure I want I begin to get annoyed. I feel frustrated and all the rest of it follows. So do you, as a human being, have an insight into the past, how very destructive it is to the brain, and the brain itself sees it, and has an insight into it and moves out of that? 克：如果得不到我要的快感，我就开始感到恼怒。 我觉得沮丧，凡此种种随之而来。 所以，你，作为一个人， 能否拥有对过去的洞察， 无论过去对大脑有多大的破坏性， 大脑自身能否看到它，对它加以洞察， 进而从中脱离出来？
40:46 N: You are saying the beginning of order comes from insight. 那拉扬：你是说，秩序的开端从洞察而来。
40:50 K: Obviously. Let’s move from there. 克：显然如此。 我们就从这里继续探索。
41:04 N: May I put it in a different way? Is it possible to gather a certain amount of order... 那拉扬：我可以换个方式来表达吗？ 有没有可能积攒一定量的秩序
41:10 K: Artificially?

N: In a pattern-sense, not artificially, so that it gives rise to a certain amount of insight? 		克：人为地？

那拉扬：以某种模式，不是人为地， 进而能够引发一定量的洞察？
41:23 K: Ah, ah, you cannot, through the false, find truth. 克：啊，啊，你不能通过谬误来找到真理。
41:31 N: I am saying it on purpose because for many people the energy required for insight, or the keenness, is lacking. 那拉扬：我是故意这么说的，因为对很多人来说 洞察需要的能量或者热切是缺乏的。
41:43 K: You are tremendously keen to earn a livelihood, to earn money, to do something, if you are interested in something. If you are interested vitally in this transformation you'll have the energy. 克：你对于谋生极其热切， 对于赚钱、做事都很热切，如果你对什么事感兴趣的话。 如果你对这种转变具有强烈的兴趣， 你就会拥有能量。
42:11 May we go on, sir? As a human being, this insight has wiped away really the past, and the brain is willing to live in nothingness. We have come to this point several times from different directions. From there, I want to go on – may we? Which means there isn’t a thing which thought has put there. There is no movement of thought. Except, knowledge, technical thought has its own place. But we are talking of the psychological state of mind where there is no movement of thought, therefore there is absolutely nothing. 我们可以继续了吗，先生？作为一个人， 这份洞察就完全抹掉了过去， 而且大脑愿意活在空无中。 我们已经从几个不同的方向来到了这一步。 从这里，我想继续往下探究，可以吗？ 也就是说，没有了思想堆砌的任何东西。 没有丝毫思想活动。 除了知识、技术类的思想还保有自己的位置。 但我们谈的是头脑的那种心理状态， 当中没有任何思想活动， 因此绝对地空无一物。
43:31 B: You mean no feeling – the movement of thought and feeling are together – is that what you mean? 博姆：你是说也没有感受——思想活动和感受是一起的—— 你是这意思吗？
43:38 K: No. What do you mean by feeling there? 克：不是。你这里说的“感受”是什么意思？
43:41 B: Usually people might say, OK, there is no thought, but I may have various feelings of all sorts. 博姆：通常人们会说，“好吧，没有思想， 但是我也许会有各种感受。”
43:49 K: Of course, I have feelings. The moment you put a pin... 克：当然，我有感受。一旦你扎根针
43:52 B: These are sensations but there are also the inner feelings. 博姆：这些是感官知觉，但是还有内心的感受。
43:58 K: Inner feelings of what? 克：内心对什么的感受？
44:00 B: It is hard to describe them. Those that can be easily described are obviously the wrong kind such as anger and fear. 博姆：很难描述它们。 那些能够被轻易描述的显然都是错的那种， 比如愤怒和恐惧。
44:08 K: Is compassion a feeling? No, it is not a feeling. 克：慈悲是一种感受吗？不，它不是一种感受。
44:13 B: Though people may say they feel compassionate. 博姆：尽管人们会说他们感觉自己很慈悲。
44:17 But even the very word suggests it is a form of feeling. 但是甚至这个词本身就隐含了一种感受。
44:22 K: I 'feel' compassionate. 克：我“觉得”很慈悲。
44:24 B: Compassion has ‘passion’ in it which is a feeling. Or it can be taken with that meaning. So it is a difficult question. 博姆：“慈悲”当中有“激情”一词，而激情是一种感受。 或者它可能会被认为有那个含义。 所以这是一个很难说清的问题。
44:37 What are usually called feelings anyway, those things that could be recognised as feelings of a describable character... 不管怎样，通常被称为“感受”的是 那些可以被认出 具备一种可描述的特性的感受
44:48 K: Let’s go into that a little bit. What do we mean by feeling? Sensations? 克：我们来稍微探究一下。 我们所说的“感受”是什么意思？感官知觉吗？
44:54 B: People don’t usually mean that. Sensation is connected with, say, the body. 博姆：人们通常不是这个意思。 感官知觉是和——比如说身体联系在一起的。
44:59 K: Body, senses.

B: Or the inner organs of the body. 		克：身体，感官。

博姆：或者身体内部的器官。
45:03 K: So, you are saying feelings which are not of the body. 克：所以，你说的是不属于身体的感受。
45:06 B: Or which are said to belong... – in the old days they would have said they are of the soul. 博姆：或者被叫做是属于……老年间 他们会说它们是属于灵魂的。
45:13 K: That is an easy escape but that means nothing. 克：那是一个很好用的托词，但是毫无意义。
45:19 What are the inner feelings? Pleasure? 内心的感受是什么？快感吗？
45:25 B: In so far as you can label it that way it is clear that it is not valid. 博姆：你暂且可以给它贴上那个标签， 但是显然并不恰当。
45:33 K: So what is valid? The non-verbal state? 克：那什么恰当？一种非语言的状态？
45:39 B: A non-verbal state which includes something that... Would it have something analogous to a feeling which wasn’t fixed? That you couldn’t name? 博姆：一种非语言的状态就包含了某种 它会不会类似于 一种并不固定的感受？而你无法给它命名？
45:55 N: You are saying it is not feeling, it is similar to feeling but it is not fixed. 那拉扬：你是说它不是感受， 它类似于感受，但是不固定。
46:02 B: Yes. I am just considering whether that could exist. 博姆：是的。我只是在考虑那种东西是否可能存在。
46:04 N: Compassion. 那拉扬：慈悲。
46:06 B: Not compassion, but if you say that there is no thought – to clarify it. Somebody could say, 'I understand, I am not thinking, I am not talking, I am not figuring out what to do’.

K: Ah, no, no, no. 		博姆：不是慈悲，但是如果你说没有思想 ——得把它说清楚。有人可能会说， “我明白，我没在思考，我没在说话， 我没在琢磨该做什么。”

克：啊，不不不。
46:20 B: So, we have to go further. What does it really mean? 博姆：所以我们得进一步说明。它究竟是什么含义？
46:28 K: All right. What it really means is, thought is movement, thought is time, right ? There is no time and thought. 克：好的。它实际的意思是，思想就是运动， 思想就是时间，对吗？而那里没有时间和思想。
46:39 B: Perhaps, no sense of the existence of an entity inside, That might be called feeling. 博姆：可能没有感觉内心有个实体存在， 那也可以叫做感受。
46:45 K: Absolutely, of course. The existence of the entity is the bundle of memories, past. 克：没错，当然。那个实体的存在 就是一堆记忆，是过去。
46:52 B: But that existence is not only thought thinking about it but also the feeling that it is there, inside, you get a sort of feeling. 博姆：但是那个存在不仅仅是在思考它的思想， 也是这种感受：它就在那里，在内心， 你有一种感觉。
46:59 K: That is, there is no being. You’re not... the mind... There is nothing. If there is a feeling of the being continuing... 克：也就是说，没有任何存在。 你不是……头脑……那里一无所有。 如果有一种持续存在的感觉
47:14 B: Even though it doesn’t seem verbalisable... 博姆：即使它看起来无法用语言表达
47:18 K: Of course. I wonder if we are caught in an illusion that there is such a state. 克：当然。 我想知道我们是否被困在了一个幻觉中， 觉得存在这样一种状态。
47:28 B: It may be. You say it would be a state without will, without desire... 博姆：可能会。你说那会是一种 没有意志力、没有欲望的状态
47:35 K: Of course. All those are gone. 克：当然。那些都消失了。
47:37 B: How do we know that this state is real, is genuine? 博姆：我们怎么知道这种状态是真实不虚的呢？
47:41 K: That is what I am asking. How do I know, or realise, or state, that it is so? In other words you want proof of it. 克：这就是我在问的。我怎么知道 或者意识到，或者怎么能说就是这样呢？ 换句话说，你想要证明它。
48:01 N: No, not proof, communication of that state. 那拉扬：不，不是证明，是交流那个状态。
48:05 K: Now wait a minute. How can you communicate with me, suppose you have this peculiar compassion, how can you communicate to me who am living in pleasure and all that? You can’t! 克：现在等一下。你如何能够跟我沟通那个状态， 假设你拥有了这份特别的慈悲， 你如何跟活在快感等等当中的我交流那个状态？ 你不能！
48:23 N: No, but I am prepared to listen to you. 那拉扬：不能，但是我准备好了听你讲。
48:26 K: Prepared to listen – how far, how deeply? 克：准备好了在多深多远的程度上倾听呢？
48:32 N: To the extent my listening takes me to. 那拉扬：就到我的倾听能带我去到的程度。
48:34 K: Which means what? 克：那是什么意思呢？
48:39 N: That is all I could say. 那拉扬：我只能这么说。
48:41 K: No, it is very simple. You will go as long as it is safe, secure. 克：不，这很简单。 只有你觉得安全可靠你才会往前走。
48:50 N: No, not necessarily. 那拉扬：不，不一定。
48:54 K: The man says, there is no being. And one’s whole life has been this becoming, being and so on. And in that state – he says – there is no being at all. In other words, there is no 'me'. Right, sir? Now, you say, ‘Show it to me’. It can be shown only through certain qualities it has, certain actions. What are the actions of a mind that is totally empty of being? That's a good... What are the actions? Oh, wait a minute. Actions at what level? Actions in the physical world? 克：这个人说，那里没有任何存在。 而一个人的整个一生一直都是这种成为、这种存在，等等。 而在那种状态中，他说根本没有任何存在。 换句话说，没有“我”。对吗，先生？ 然后你说，“展现给我看。” 它只能通过它具备的某些品质、 某些行动来展现。 一颗彻底清空了存在的心 有什么样的行动？这是一个好 那些行动是什么？噢，等一下。 哪个层面的行动？物质世界里的行动吗？
50:20 N: Partly.

K: Mostly that.

N: Not mostly, partly. 		那拉扬：一部分是。

克：大部分是那些。

那拉扬：不是大部分，是一部分。
50:26 K: No, I am asking, is that partial ? 克：不，我问的是，那是局部的吗？
50:33 This man has got this sense of emptiness and there is no being so he is not acting from self-centred interest. So his actions are in the world of daily living. That’s all, you can judge only there, whether he is a hypocrite, whether he says one thing and contradicts it the next moment, whether he is actually living this compassion – not ‘I feel compassionate'. 这个人有了这种空无，那里没有任何存在， 所以他不是从自我中心的利益出发去行动的。 所以他的行动还是在日常生活的这个世界中的。 就是这样，你只能从那里判断， 他是不是一个伪君子，他是不是说了什么 然后下一刻就自相矛盾， 他是不是真的活在这种慈悲当中， 而不是“我觉得很慈悲”。
51:13 B: If you are not doing the same, you can’t tell. 博姆：如果你不在同样的状态，你是无法判断的。
51:16 K: That’s just it. That’s what I am saying! 克：就是这样。这就是我说的意思！
51:19 N: I can’t judge you there. 那拉扬：我无法判断那里的你。
51:21 K: You can’t. So, how can you convey to me, in words, that peculiar quality of a mind? You can describe, go round it, but you can’t give the essence of it. I mean David, for example, he can discuss with Einstein, they are on the same level. And he and I can discuss up to a certain point. And if he has this sense of not being, empty, I can go very close to it, but I can never enter or come upon that mind unless I have it. 克：你不能。所以，你如何能够用语言传达给我 那颗心特有的品质？你可以描述， 可以旁敲侧击，但你无法给出它的精髓。 我是说，例如大卫，他可以跟爱因斯坦讨论， 他们是在同一个层面上的。 而他和我就只能探讨到某个点上。 如果他拥有这种不存在、这种空无感， 我可以非常接近它，但是我永远无法进入 或者遇到那颗心，除非我自己拥有了它。
52:17 N: Is there any way of communicating without words, for one who is open? 那拉扬：对于一个开放的人来说，有没有不用语言的沟通方式呢？
52:23 K: We said compassion. It is not, as David put it just now, it is not ‘I feel compassionate’, then that's altogether wrong. After all, in daily life, such a mind acts without the ‘me’, without the ego, and therefore it might make a mistake but corrects it immediately, it is not carrying that mistake. 克：我们说了慈悲。 它不是，就像大卫刚才说的那样， 它不是“我觉得慈悲”，那就完全错了。 毕竟，在日常生活中，这样的一颗心 行动是没有我、没有自我的， 所以它可能会犯错，但立刻就会改正， 它不会一直背着那个错误。
53:14 N: It is not stuck. 那拉扬：它没有被困住。
53:22 K: We must be very careful here not to find an excuse for wrong! 克：在这里我们必须非常小心，不要为做错事找借口！
53:35 So sir, we come to that point, as we said the other day, what is then meditation? The becoming man, or the being man, who meditates, it has no meaning whatsoever. That is a tremendous statement. When there is this not becoming, not being, then what is mediation? It must be totally unconscious. Right, sir? Hang on! Totally... uninvited. 所以，先生，我们来到了这一步，就像我们前几天说到的， 那么冥想是什么呢？ 那个在成为什么的人，或者还有存在的人，他冥想， 那根本毫无意义。 这是一个非同小可的说法。 当有了这种不成为、不存在， 那么冥想是什么？ 它必须是完全无意识的。对吗，先生？坚持住！ 完全……不邀而至。
54:27 B: Without conscious intention, is what you mean. 博姆：没有有意识的企图，就是你说的意思。
54:31 K: Yes, without conscious intention. Yes, I think this is right. 克：是的，没有有意识的企图。 是的，我想这是对的。
54:45 Would you say – sounds silly but – the universe, cosmic order, is in meditation? 你会不会说——这听起来很傻，但是—— 宇宙、宇宙秩序就是处在冥想中的？
54:58 B: Well, if it is alive then you would have to look at it that way. 博姆：哦，如果它是活的，那么 你就必须得那样看待它。
55:02 K: No. It is in a state of meditation.

B: Yes. 		克：不。它就是处于一种冥想状态中。

博姆：是的。
55:10 K: I think that is right. I stick... I go with that. 克：我想这是对的。我坚持……我是这种看法。
55:16 B: We should try to go over what is meditation, what is it doing? 博姆：我们得好好谈谈什么是冥想， 它在做什么？
55:36 N: If you say the universe is in meditation, is the expression of it an order? What order can we discern, which would indicate cosmic meditation or universal meditation? 那拉扬：如果你说宇宙在冥想中， 那它的表达就是一种秩序？ 我们能辨认出什么秩序， 它能够显示出宇宙的冥想 或者普世的冥想？
55:57 K: The sunrise and sunset is order, all the stars, the planets, the whole thing is in perfect order. 克：日出日落就是秩序，所有的星辰， 行星，这个整体就处在完美的秩序中。
56:12 B: We have to connect this with meditation. 博姆：我们得把这个和冥想联系起来。
56:17 K: He is bringing the word ‘order’. 克：他引入了“秩序”这个词。
56:20 B: According to the dictionary the meaning of meditation is to reflect, to turn something over in your mind and to pay close attention.

K: And also to measure. 		博姆：根据词典的解释，“冥想”的意思是 在脑子里思索，好好考虑某件事， 并且保持密切的关注。

克：还有衡量的意思。
56:30 B: That's a further meaning but it is to weigh and to ponder it means measure in the sense of weighing and pondering. 博姆：那是一个引申义了，但它的意思是权衡和思索， 它的衡量指的是权衡和思索。
56:37 K: Ponder, think over and so on. 克：沉思，思索，等等。
56:40 B: To weigh the significance of something. Is that what you mean?

K: No. 		博姆：权衡某件事的重要性。 你是这个意思吗？

克：不是。
56:45 B: Then why do you use the word? 博姆：那你为什么要用这个词？
56:49 N: I am told that, in English, contemplation has a different connotation from meditation. Contemplation implies a deeper state of mind, whereas meditation is... 那拉扬：有人告诉我说，在英语中，沉思和 冥想的含义不同。 沉思意味着一种更深层的心灵状态， 而冥想是
57:01 K: To contemplate.

N: That’s what I was told. 		克：去沉思。

那拉扬：有人是这么告诉我的。
57:04 B: It is hard to know. The word ‘contemplate’ comes from the word ‘temple’ really. To make an open space, is its basic meaning. To sort of create an open space so you can look at it. 博姆：很难确切知道。“沉思”这个词 实际上来源于“寺庙”一词。 创造一个开放的空间，是它的基本含义。 大致是说创造一个开放的空间，这样你就可以去审视它了。

克：是上帝与我之间的那个开阔空间，以致于
57:23 B: That is the way the word arose. 博姆：这就是这个词的起源。
57:27 N: From temple, space.

B: Temple means an open space. 		那拉扬：来自于寺庙，空间。

博姆：寺庙意味着一个开放的空间。
57:34 N: The Sanskrit word ‘dhyana’ doesn’t have the same connotation as meditation.

K: Dhyana, no. 		那拉扬：梵文的“禅”一词的含义 和冥想并不相同。

克：禅，不同。
57:40 N: Because meditation has the overtones of measurement and probably in an oblique way that measurement is order. 那拉扬：因为冥想还有“衡量”这个弦外之意， 可能还有一个模糊的意思是衡量就是秩序。
57:49 K: No, I don’t want to bring in order, leave the word ‘order’ out, we have been through that, we have beaten that to death. 克：不，我不想引入秩序， 把“秩序”这个词抛开，我们已经讨论过那个了， 我们已经详细讨论过了。
57:57 B: I just asked why you used the word meditation. 博姆：我刚才只是问你为什么用“冥想”这个词。
57:59 K: Don’t let’s use the word ‘meditation’. 克：那我们就不用“冥想”这个词吧。
58:02 B: Let’s find out what you really mean here. 博姆：我们来搞清楚你在这里究竟指的是什么意思。
58:23 K: Would you say, sir, a state of infinity, a measureless state?

B: Yes. 		克：你会不会说，先生，一种无限的状态， 一种无法衡量的状态？

博姆：是的。
58:42 K: There is no division of any kind in it. We are giving lots of descriptions, but it is not that! 克：其中没有任何一种分裂。 我们给了一大堆解释，但它不是那些！
58:56 B: Yes, but is there any sense of the mind being in some way aware of itself, is that what you are trying to say? 博姆：没错，但是心没有可能 以某种方式觉知到它自己， 这是你想说的意思吗？
59:11 At other times, you have said the mind is emptying itself of content. 在其他时候，你说过心 在清空它自己的内容。
59:16 K: Yes. What are you trying to get at? 克：是的。你想说明什么呢？
59:23 B: I am trying to get at that it is not merely infinite 博姆：我想说明它不仅仅是无限的， 而是看起来……有更多的东西牵涉其中。
59:31 K: Oh, much more. 克：噢，还有更多。
59:43 B: But in this emptying of content, we said that this content is the past which has become disorder. Then you could say, in some sense, it is constantly cleaning up the past. Would you agree to that? 博姆：但是关于这个内容的清空，我们说过 这个内容就是变成了失序的过去。 然后你可以说，在某种意义上， 它一直在清理着过去。你会同意这个说法吗？
59:59 K: It is constantly cleaning up the past? No, I wouldn’t. 克：它一直在清理着过去？不，我不会。
1:00:02 B: Then, when you say the mind is emptying itself of content... 博姆：那当你说心在清空它自己的内容
1:00:08 K: Has emptied itself! 克：已经清空了它自己！
1:00:11 B: All right, then we say, when the past is cleaned up, then you say that is meditation. 博姆：好的，那么我们说，当过去被清理掉了， 然后你说那就是冥想。
1:00:17 K: That is medit... oh, no. Contemplation of what? 克：那就是冥……噢，不。沉思什么？
1:00:23 N: Just a beginning. It is at the beginning. 那拉扬：只是一个开始。它只在一开始。
1:00:26 K: Beginning of what?

N: The emptying of the past. 		克：什么的开始？

那拉扬：清空过去。
1:00:30 K: That must be done. Emptying the content which is anger, jealousy, beliefs, dogmas, attachments, all that is the content. If any part of that exists it will inevitably lead to illusion. So, we said that. The brain or the mind must be totally free of all illusion, illusion brought by desire, by hope, by wanting security and all that. 克：必须这么做。清空内容， 也就是愤怒、嫉妒、信念、教条、依附， 那一切都是内容。如果有任何一部分存在， 就必然会导致幻觉。 所以我们说过了，大脑或者心灵必须彻底 摆脱所有幻觉， 由欲望、希望、 想要安全感等等带来的幻觉。
1:01:16 B: When that is done, this opens the door to something broader, deeper. 博姆：当这么做了，就开启了一扇门， 可以通往某种更广阔、更深远的东西。
1:01:24 K: Yes. Otherwise life has no meaning, just repeating this pattern. Now I want to go into this. 克：是的。 否则生命就没有意义，只是在重复这个模式。 现在我想探讨一下这个问题。
1:01:37 B: All right.

K: It is five o’clock. 		博姆：好的。

克：五点钟了。
1:01:40 N: What exactly did you mean when you said the universe is in meditation? You are trying to convey something when you say that the universe is in meditation. 那拉扬：当你说“宇宙处在冥想中”，那究竟是什么意思呢？ 你想传达某种东西， 当你说“宇宙处在冥想中”的时候。
1:01:50 K: Yes. I feel that way. Meditation is a state of... ‘non-movement movement’. 克：是的。我是那么感觉的。 冥想是一种状态 是一种不动的运动。
1:02:07 B: Could we say first of all the universe is not actually governed by its past. That is the first point. It is free and creative.

K: It is creative, moving. 		博姆：我们能不能说首先宇宙实际上并不是 被它的过去所主宰的。这是第一点。 它是自由的，创造性的。

克：它是创造性的，运动的。
1:02:22 B: And then this movement is an order. 博姆：然后这种运动是一种秩序。
1:02:27 K: Would you, as a scientist, accept such a thing? 克：你，作为一个科学家，会接受这件事吗？
1:02:31 B: Well, as a matter of fact, I would! 博姆：哦，事实上，我会的！

克：我们都疯了吗？

博姆：呃
1:03:07 The universe creates certain forms which are relatively constant, so if the people look at it superficially and only see that, it seems to be then determined from the past. 宇宙创造出某些相对稳定的形式， 所以，如果人们从表面上去看它并且只看到那些， 那么它看起来就是由过去决定的。
1:03:24 K: Sir, put the question the other way: is it really possible for time to end? Time being the past – time, the whole idea of time. To have no tomorrow at all? Of course, there is tomorrow: you have to go to a talk and I have too, there is tomorrow. But the feeling, the actual reality of having no tomorrow. Yes sir – I think that's the healthiest way of living. Which doesn’t mean I become irresponsible, that is all too childish. 克：先生，换个方式来提出这个问题： 时间究竟有可能停止吗？ 时间就是过去，时间，这整个时间的概念。 能不能完全没有明天？ 当然，明天是存在的： 你得去参加一个讲话，我也得去，明天是存在的。 但是那种感觉， 心理上真的没有明天。 是的，先生，我想这才是最健康的生活方式。 这并不意味着我要变得不负责任， 那就太幼稚了。
1:04:47 B: No, it is merely the question of physical time, it is a certain part of natural order. which we still have in mind, but the question is whether we have a sense of experiencing past and future or whether we are free of that sense. 博姆：不，那只是物理时间的问题， 那是自然秩序的一部分， 这个我们还是记在心里的，但问题是 我们是否有一种在经历过去和未来的感觉， 还是我们摆脱了那种感觉。
1:05:07 K: As a scientist I am asking you, is the universe based on time? 克：你作为一个科学家，我问你：宇宙是以时间为基础的吗？
1:05:13 B: I would say no, but the general way it has been formulated... 博姆：我会说不是，但是通常的表述方式
1:05:17 K: That is all I want, you say no. And can the brain which has evolved in time... 克：我只要这句话，你说了不是。 那么，随时间进化了的大脑
1:05:29 B: Has it evolved in time? That's a way of talking but, it has become entangled in time. Entangled in time in some way because if you say the universe is not based on time, the brain is part of the universe. It can’t be based merely on time. 博姆：它随时间进化了吗？话可以这么说，但 它其实被缠绕在了时间里。 以某种方式缠绕在了时间里，因为，如果你说 宇宙不是基于时间的，而大脑又是宇宙的一部分， 它就不可能只是基于时间的。
1:05:48 K: No. The brain in the sense, thought. 克：不是。大脑的意思是，思想。
1:05:53 B: Thought has entangled the brain in time. 博姆：思想把大脑缠绕在了时间里。
1:05:57 K: All right. Can that entanglement be unravelled, freed, so that the universe is the mind? You follow? If the universe is not of time, can the mind, which has been entangled in time, unravel itself and so, be the universe? You follow? And that is order! 克：好的。那种缠绕能否被解开、 被摆脱，于是宇宙就是心灵了？你明白吗？ 如果宇宙不属于时间， 那么，被缠绕在时间中的心灵 能否解开它自己，然后成为宇宙？你明白吗？ 而那就是秩序！
1:06:34 B: That is order. Now would you say that is meditation? 博姆：这就是秩序。那你会说这就是冥想吗？
1:06:37 K: That is it. Now I would call that meditation. Not in the ordinary dictionary sense of pondering over weigh and all that, that is a state of meditation in which there is no... element of the past. 克：是的。我会把这叫做“冥想”。 不是通常词典上讲的沉思、 权衡之类的意思，而是一种冥想状态， 其中没有任何过去的因素。
1:06:59 B: You say the mind is disentangling itself from time and also really disentangling the brain from time. 博姆：你说心灵把自己从时间中解放出来， 实际上也就把大脑从时间中解放了出来。
1:07:09 K: Would you accept that?

B: Well, I can see that. 		克：你会接受这一点吗？

博姆：哦，我能明白这一点。
1:07:13 K: As a theory.

B: Yes, as a proposal. 		克：作为一个理论。

博姆：是的，作为一种提议。
1:07:15 K: No, I don’t want it as a proposal! 克：不，我可不想让它成为一种提议！
1:07:18 B: What do you mean by theory? 博姆：你说的“理论”是什么意思呢？
1:07:20 K: Theory as... Somebody comes along and says, 'this is real meditation'. Wait. Somebody says, one can live this way and life has an extraordinary meaning in it, full of... compassion and so on, and every act in the physical world, can be corrected immediately and so on. Would you, as a scientist, accept such a state, or say this man is cuckoo? 克：理论是……有人过来说 “这是真正的冥想。” 等一下。有人说，人可以这样活着， 生命具有非同寻常的意义，充满了 慈悲，等等，而且物质世界中的 每个行为都能立刻得到纠正， 等等。你，作为一个科学家， 会接受这种状态吗，还是会说这个人是个疯子？
1:07:53 B: No, I wouldn’t say that. I feel it is perfectly possible. It is quite compatible with anything that I know about nature. 博姆：不，我不会那么说。 我认为这是完全有可能的。这跟我对于 大自然的所有了解都是相契合的。
1:08:05 K: Oh, that’s all right. One is not an unbalanced cuckoo! 克：噢，那就好。这个人不是一个神经失常的疯子！
1:08:12 B: No. Part of the entanglement is that science itself has put time into a fundamental position which helps to entangle it still further. 博姆：不是。这种纠葛的一部分正是科学本身 把时间放在了一个基础的位置上， 这就促成了进一步的纠缠。
1:08:50 K: Better stop. Shall we continue some more? 克：我们最好打住了。我们可以改天再继续探讨吗？
1:08:53 B: When do you want to continue?

K: Next Sunday. 		博姆：你想什么时候再继续？

克：下周日。
1:08:56 B: I am going to be in America next Sunday. 博姆：我下周日就在美国了。
1:08:59 K: Oh, when do you go to America?

B: Thursday. 		克：噢，你哪天去美国？

博姆：周四。
1:09:02 K: Well, we can’t continue.

B: Except by television. 		克：哦，我们没法继续了。

博姆：除非通过电视会议。
1:09:06 K: That's very simple. 克：那很简单。
1:09:10 B: In the autumn, in September? 博姆：那就定在秋天，九月份？
1:09:12 K: Yes. September we will. Of course, putting into words is not the thing. That is understood. But can it be communicated to another? 克：好的，九月份可以。 当然，诉诸语言并不是那个事物本身。 这点明白了。但是这件事能跟另一个人交流吗？
1:09:29 B: I think that... The point about communication of this is to bring it about. 博姆：我认为……交流这件事的关键在于 要让它实现。
1:09:40 K: Of course. Now can some of us get to this? So that we can communicate actually, you know. 克：当然。那我们当中能有一些人可以做到这些吗？ 那样我们就能真正交流了，你知道的。
1:09:59 Well, sir, we better stop. 好了，先生，我们最好停下了。