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OJBR80CB11 - 洞察带来的解放
与大卫▪博姆的第十一次对谈
1980年9月14日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:30 K: Dr Bohm and I started these dialogues at Ojai in California at the beginning of this year. And we had eight dialogues there and two here, if I remember rightly, so we have had altogether ten dialogues this year, Dr Bohm and I. And so we are continuing that dialogue. 克：博姆博士和我开始这些对话 是在加州的欧亥， 在今年年初的时候。 我们在那里进行了八次对话， 在这里也有两次，如果我没记错的话， 所以我们今年总共有过十次对话了， 博姆博士和我。然后我们来继续进行这场对话。
1:03 We talked about... – rather difficult to remember. I've no memory of it. I think we asked – if I remember rightly – what is the origin of all this, of all human movement. Is there an original source, a ground – is that right, sir? – a ground from which all this sprang: nature, man, the whole universe. Was it bound by time? Was it, in itself, complete order, and beyond which there is nothing more? And, Dr Bohm reminded me yesterday, we talked about order, whether the universe is based on time at all. I don't know if you are interested in all this? And whether man can ever comprehend and live in that supreme order. That's right, sir? I think that's, rather vaguely, where we stopped. I don't know if you are interested in all this. But Dr Bohm and I wanted to investigate, not merely intellectually but also profoundly, how to comprehend, or live from that ground, move from that ground, the ground that is timeless, there is nothing beyond it. And I think we had better begin from there. 我们谈到了……很难回想起来了。 我对内容没什么印象了。 我想我们问到了——如果我没记错的话—— 人类的所有活动，这一切的起源是什么。 有没有一个最初的源头，一个基础——对吗，先生？ 这一切发源的基础： 大自然，人类，整个宇宙。 它是受限于时间的吗？ 它本身是不是完备的秩序， 此外一无所有？ 另外，博姆博士昨天也提醒了我， 我们谈到了秩序， 宇宙究竟是不是以时间为基础的。 我不知道你们对这些是不是感兴趣？ 还有，人类究竟能不能领悟并且活在 那最高的秩序当中。对吗，先生？ 我想这就是我们停下的地方，尽管印象很模糊。 我不知道你们对这些是不是感兴趣。 但是博姆博士和我想探究一下， 不只是从智力层面，而且也深入地探索一下 如何领悟或者从那个基础中生活， 从那个基础中行动， 那个超越时间的基础， 没什么再超越其外了。 而且我认为我们最好从那里开始。
4:29 B: Begin from the ground. 博姆：从那个基础开始。
4:39 K: Sir, I don't know if you will agree as a scientist – of eminence – whether there is such a ground, whether man can ever comprehend it, live in it – live, in the sense, not as something he lives in, but that itself living – and whether we can, as human beings, come to that. That is, more or less, what we talked about. 克：先生，我不知道你作为一位著名科学家 会不会同意，是否存在这样一个基础， 人究竟能不能领悟它， 生活在其中——生活的意思 不是指他活在某个东西当中，而是它自身就是鲜活的—— 还有，身为人类，我们能不能触及它。 这或多或少就是我们之前探讨的内容。
5:31 B: I don't know if science as it is now constituted can say much about that. 博姆：我不知道从科学 如今的构成来看，它在这个问题上有多少发言权。
5:37 K: Science doesn't talk about it. But you as a scientist, would you give your mind to the investigation of that? 克：科学不谈这个问题。 但是你作为一名科学家，你会投入心力 去探索这个问题吗？
5:52 B: I think implicitly science has always been concerned with trying to come to this ground – as we discussed in Ojai – by studying matter to the greatest possible depth. But of course, that is not enough. 博姆：我认为科学一直是暗中关注 去设法触及那个基础的， 就像我们在欧亥讨论过的， 通过尽可能从最大的深度上去研究物质。 但是当然了，那还不够。
6:15 K: Is this too abstract?

B: It's hard to say. 		克：这太抽象了吗？

博姆：很难说。
6:25 K: Didn't we ask, sir – if I remember rightly it's so long ago – as a human being, living in this world, which is in such turmoil, whether there can be that absolute order first, as the universe is in absolute order, and comprehend an order which is universal. 克：我们难道不是问过，先生 ——如果我没记错的话，时间太久了—— 作为一个人，活在这个世界上， 这个如此混乱的世界上， 能否先有绝对的秩序， 就像宇宙就处于绝对的秩序中，并且 领悟一种普世运行的秩序。
7:07 I don't know if I am making my question clear. I can have order in myself, by careful observation, self-study, self-investigation, and understand the nature of disorder, and the very understanding, the very insight of it, dispels that disorder. And that's one level of order. 我不知道有没有把问题说清楚。 我可以让自身拥有秩序，通过仔细的观察， 通过自我学习、自我探索， 了解失序的本质， 对它的这份了解本身，这份洞察本身， 就驱散了失序。这是一个层面的秩序。
7:36 B: That's the level that most of us have been concerned with until now. We see this disorder going on in the world, and in ourselves, and we say it is necessary to observe all that, to be aware of it and – as you say – to dispel it. 博姆：这就是我们大多数人迄今为止一直关注的层面。 我们看到了发生在世界上 以及我们内心的这种失序，我们说有必要 观察那一切，觉察到它，并且，就像你说的， 驱散它。
7:54 K: But that's a very small affair. 克：但那是一件很小的事情。
7:57 B: We discussed that in Ojai, but I feel that people generally don't feel it as a small affair. We've discussed it at great length, but at first people feel that clearing up the disorder in themselves and the world would be a very big thing, and perhaps all that's necessary. 博姆：这点我们在欧亥讨论过了，但是我觉得 人们通常不觉得那是一件小事。 我们已经非常深入地讨论过了这个问题， 但是一开始人们还是觉得清理自身以及世界上的失序 是一件大事， 可能也是唯一需要做的。
8:20 K: A fairly intelligent and knowledgeable and fairly cultured human being – cultured in the sense civilised – he can, with a great deal of enquiry and investigation, come to the point when, in himself he can bring order. 克：一个非常智慧、 富有学识和具有良好教养的人 ——有教养的意思是文明的—— 他可以通过大量的探询 和探索走到这一步，也就是他可以为自身带来秩序。
8:46 B: Yes, and then some people would now begin to say if only we could bring that order into the whole of society. 博姆：是的，然后就会有些人开始说 要是我们能把那种秩序带到全社会就好了。
8:51 K: We will, if all of us in this room, if we are all tremendously – in that inward sense – orderly, we'll perhaps create a new society. But that again is a very small affair! 克：我们可以的，如果我们这个房间里的所有人， 如果我们内心都完全处于那种秩序感当中的话， 也许我们就可以创造一个新社会。 可那还是一件微不足道的事情！
9:08 B: Yes, I understand that. One should go into it carefully because people commonly don't see it as small, although a few have seen that there's something much beyond that. 博姆：是的，我明白。 我们必须仔细探讨这个问题，因为 人们通常不认为那是小事， 尽管有几个人看到了此外还有更为超越之事。
9:21 K: Much more beyond that! That's what I want... – I don't know if others are following this. 克：远远超越于此！这就是我想 我不知道这点其他人有没有跟上。
9:29 B: Perhaps what might be worth thinking about would be, why is it that it is not enough to go into this order of man and society, just produce orderly living – let's put it that way. In what sense is that not enough? You feel it's very small but... 博姆：可能 也许值得思考的是， 为什么只是探究 人类和社会的秩序是不够的， 只是建立有序的生活还不够——我们权且这么表达。 从哪种意义上说那还不够？你觉得那微不足道，但是
9:58 K: Because we live in chaos, to bring order, we think that's a tremendous affair. 克：因为我们生活在混乱中，而带来秩序， 我们就以为那是一件了不起的事了。
10:04 B: Yes, agreed, it looks very big. From the present state of disorder it looks very big. 博姆：是的，同意，那看起来是件大事。 从现今失序的状态看，那的确是件大事。
10:09 K: Yes, enormous, but in itself it isn't! 克：是的，很了不起，但它本身并不是！
10:13 B: Yes, could you make it a little more clear why it isn't. 博姆：是的，你能稍微说清楚一点它为什么不是吗？
10:19 K: Oh dear... 克：噢，天哪
10:20 B: I think it's important... 博姆：我认为这很重要
10:22 K: All right, sir, all right! 克：好的，先生，好的！
10:31 Because I can put my room in order, so that it gives me certain space, certain freedom. I know where things are, I can go directly to them. That's a physical thing. Can I, as a human being, put things in myself in order, which is, not to have conflict, not to have comparison, not to have any sense of me and you and they, you know, which brings about such division, and out of that division grows conflict. That's simple. If I'm a Hindu and you are a Muslim, we are eternally at war with each other. 因为我可以让自己的房间井井有条， 那就给了我一定的空间，一定的自由。 我知道东西在哪，我可以直接找到它们。 这是一件外在的事情。 我，作为一个人，能否让自己内心的事也井然有序， 也就是，没有冲突，没有比较， 没有任何“你、我、他们”之类的感觉， 你知道的，就是这些带来了分裂， 从那种分裂中就产生了冲突。这很简单。 如果我是个印度教徒，而你是个穆斯林， 我们就会没完没了地和彼此开战。
11:31 B: Yes, and in every community, people fall apart in the same way. 博姆：是的，而且在每一个社会内部，人们也同样是分崩离析的。
11:36 K: The same way, the whole society breaks up that way. So if one understands that, and profoundly realises it, that's finished. 克：同样的，整个社会都是那样四分五裂的。 所以，如果一个人明白了这点， 深刻地认识到这一点，那就结束了。
11:51 B: Then suppose we say we have achieved that, then what? 博姆：那假设我们说我们已经实现了这个，然后呢？
11:57 K: That's what I want to get on. I don't know if theu are interested in this. 克：那就是我想探讨的。 我不知道他们是不是对这个感兴趣。
12:02 B: People might say, 'It's so far away that it doesn't interest us, wait till we achieve it before we worry about the other.' 博姆：人们也许会说， “如果那太遥远了，我们就提不起兴趣来， 等到我们实现了这个，再去操心另一个吧。”
12:10 K: This was a dialogue between you and me, not with... 克：这是你我之间的一场对话，而不是和
12:15 B: But just trying to make sure everybody here sees, before we go on, to see what the question is. 博姆：但是只是想确保在座的每一位都明白， 在我们往下进行之前，都明白问题是什么。
12:24 K: All right, sir, let's start. I'm in disorder, physically, psychologically and around me the society in which I live is also utterly confused, there is a great deal of injustice – a miserable affair. I can see that, very simply. I can see my generation and past generations have contributed to this. I can do something about it! That's simple. I can say, 'I'll put my house in order' – myself is the house – my house must be in order before I can move further. 克：好的，先生，我们开始吧。 身体上、心理上我都是混乱无序的， 我所生活的这个周围的社会也是 极其混乱的，存在着大量的不公正， 这是件悲惨的事情， 我能看到那些，很清楚。我也能看到我这一代 和过去的世世代代都对此有所贡献。 我可以对此做些什么！这很简单。 我可以说，“我会让自己的房子有序” ——我自己就是那个房子—— 我的房子必须有序，然后我才能走得更远。
13:23 B: Suppose somebody says, 'My house is not in order, so before I worry about that I'll put my house in order'. 博姆：假设有个人说，“我的房子没有秩序， 所以在我操心那个之前，我得先让房子有序。”
13:30 K: All right, my house is in disorder. Let me put that into order, which is fairly simple. If I apply my mind and my heart to the resolution of that question, it's fairly clear. But we don't want to do that! 克：好的，我的房子是无序的。 我先来让它有序，这很简单。 如果我全身心投入 去解决那个问题的话，那很简单。 但我们不想那么做！
13:53 B: That's another question. 博姆：那是另一个问题了。
13:55 K: We find it tremendously difficult, we are so bound to the past or to our habits and to our attitudes, we don't seem to have the energy, the courage, the vitality, to move out of it. 克：我们发现那非常难做到， 我们是如此受制于过去或者我们的习惯、 我们的态度，我们似乎没有那个能量、 那个勇气、那个活力从中脱离出来。
14:12 B: It doesn't seem to be so simple as what will produce that energy and courage. What will change all this? 博姆：这件事看起来没有那么简单， 究竟什么能产生那种能量和勇气。 什么能改变这一切？
14:21 K: What will change all this – as we discussed at Ojai – is to have this... insight into all this. 克：能改变这一切的，就像我们在欧亥讨论的， 是拥有对这一切的那份洞察。
14:33 B: Yes, that really is the key point. Without insight, nothing can change – even if we try to bring order in daily life – without this much broader insight into the very root of it, or into the ground of it. 博姆：是的，这其实就是关键所在了。 没有洞察，什么也改变不了， 即使我们努力为日常生活带来秩序， 如果没有这份广阔得多的洞察来穿透问题的根源 或者问题的基础的话。
14:48 K: Now, will that insight really alter my whole structure and nature of my being? That is the question, isn't it? 克：那么，那份洞察真的会改变我的整个结构 和我存在的本质吗？这就是问题所在，对吗？
15:05 B: It seems to me that if we look at a rather small question like the order of daily life, it will not involve your whole being. 博姆：在我看来，如果我们来看 一个很小的问题，比如日常生活的秩序， 它并不会包括我的整个存在。
15:17 And therefore the insight will be inadequate. 所以那种洞察就是不充分的。
15:21 K: So, what is insight – we discussed that too, a great deal, we talked about it at the gathering here and at Saanen but... do we go through that? 克：所以，洞察是什么——这个我们也讨论过了， 讨论过很多，我们在这里 和萨能的集会上都讨论过了， 但是……我们现在要再过一遍吗？
15:34 B: Well, just sum it up, it would make it more intelligible. 博姆：哦，就简要说说吧， 能让这个问题更好理解。
15:49 K: Could we start with being tied to something. Being tied to a belief, to a person, to an idea, to some habit, some experience, which inevitably must create disorder. Because being tied implies dependence the escape from one's own loneliness, fear, and all that. Now, to have total insight into this attachment. That very insight clears away all attachment. 克：我们可以从被绑缚在什么东西上开始说起吗？ 被绑缚在一个信念、一个人、一个想法、 某个习惯、某次经验上面， 就必然会造成失序。 因为被绑缚就意味着依赖， 逃避自己的孤独、恐惧，诸如此类。 现在，对这种依附有了一份整体的洞察。 这份洞察本身就消除了所有的依附。
16:50 B: Yes, we were saying that the self is the centre of darkness, like a centre creating darkness in the mind, clouds, and the insight penetrates that, it would dispel the cloud so that there would be clarity, therefore this problem would vanish. 博姆：是的，我们说过自我就是 黑暗的核心， 就像有个核心在制造着心中的黑暗和阴云， 而洞察穿透了它，会驱散阴云， 于是就有了清晰，所以这个问题就会消失。
17:07 But it would take a very strong, intense insight, very...Total. 但是那需要一种非常强大、非常强烈的洞察， 非常……完整。
17:13 K: That's right, but are we willing to go through that? Or my attachment to, my tie to something is so strong, that I'm unwilling to let go. 克：没错，但是我们愿意穿越这一切吗？ 还是说，我对某种东西的依附、绑缚太强大了， 以致于我不愿意放开。
17:35 B: Yes, but then what? 博姆：是的，可是然后呢？
17:38 K: And that's what most people are. Unfortunately, it's only very few who want to do this kind of thing. 克：这就是大多数人的情况。 不幸的是， 只有极少数人愿意做这种事。
17:54 Now, we are discussing the nature of insight, whether that insight can wipe away or banish, dissolve this whole movement of being tied, attached, dependent, lonely, all that – with one blow, as it were. I think it can. I think it does when there is profound insight into this thing. That insight is not mere memory, the movement of memory, knowledge, experience, which is totally different from all 'that' movement. 现在，我们讨论的是洞察的实质， 那份洞察能否抹掉或者消除、 消融这整个被绑缚、依附、 依赖、孤独之类的活动，可以说是一举消灭。 我认为可以。我认为确实可以，当有了 对这件事的深刻洞察。 这种洞察并非只是记忆， 记忆、知识、经验的活动 跟“那种”活动完全不同。
18:51 B: It seems that it's insight into the whole of disorder, into the source of disorder. Of all disorder of a psychological nature, not just attachment or greed. 博姆：那似乎是对 失序的整体、失序的根源的洞察。 是对所有的失序，对心理本质的洞察， 而不只是依附或者贪婪。
19:05 With that insight then, the mind can clear up and then it would be possible to approach the cosmic order. 然后随着那份洞察，心就能够清晰起来， 然后就有可能接触宇宙秩序了。
19:14 K: That's what I want to get at!

B: Yes. 		克：这就是我想说明的！

博姆：好的。
19:18 K: That's much more interesting than this, because this is all rather immature – – sorry, forgive the word – any serious man must put his house in order. Right? And that must be complete order, not order in a particular direction, but order in the wholeness of man. If that can be done, and that is necessary, because society as it is is disintegrating, destructive, etc. And it destroys human beings. It's a machine that is destructive in itself, and if a human being is caught in it, it destroys him. And realising that, any ordinary human intelligence says, 'I must do something about it' not just sit back and talk about it. 克：那比这个要有趣多了， 因为这个太幼稚了 ——抱歉，请原谅这个说法—— 任何一个认真的人都必须让自己的房子有序。 对吗？而且那必须是全然的秩序， 不是某个特定方向上的秩序， 而是整个人的秩序。 如果可以做到这一点，这也是必要的， 因为如今的社会正在崩溃，极具破坏性，等等， 它在摧毁人类。 它是一部本身就具有破坏性的机器， 如果一个人被困在里面，它就会毁掉他。 而意识到了这一点，任何人通常具有的智慧都会说， “我必须对此做点儿什么”， 而不会只是袖手旁边、高谈阔论。
20:34 B: Just to finish things, most people might feel doing something about it consists of solving particular problems like attachment or removing disagreements between people... 博姆：单说要了结事情， 大多数人也许会认为对它做些什么就包括 解决一些具体问题，比如依附 或者消除人与人之间的分歧
20:47 K: No, the particular resolution of a particular problem, is not the resolution of the whole. 克：不，对一个具体问题的具体解决 并不是解决整体问题。
20:58 B: That's the key point that if you find the source which generates this whole, then getting at this source, at this root, is the only way. Because if we try to deal with a particular problem, it's still always coming from the source. 博姆：这就是关键所在了，如果你发现了产生 这个整体的源头， 那么解决这个源头、这个根本，才是唯一的出路。 因为如果我们试图解决一个具体问题， 它依旧会一直从那个源头生发出来。
21:15 K: The source is the 'me', understood. 克：那个源头就是“我”，这个明白了。
21:17 The source, apart from the great source, the little source, the little pond, the little stream, must dry up. 那个源头——区别于那个大源头——那个小源头， 小池塘，小水流， 必须干涸。
21:37 B: Yes, the little stream confuses itself with the great one, I think. 博姆：是的，这个小水流把自己和 那个大源头混为一谈了，我想。
21:40 K: We're not talking about the great stream, the immense movement of life. We're talking about the little me with the little movement, with the little apprehensions and so on, that is creating disorder. And as long as there is that centre which is the very essence of disorder, unless that is dissolved there is no order. 克：我们谈的不是那个大水流， 生命无限的运动，我们谈的是 那个小小的我连同它小小的活动、 小小的担忧，等等， 是它制造了失序。而只要存在 这个本身就是失序核心的中心， 就没有秩序可言，除非它被消除掉。
22:11 So at that level it is clear. Can we go on from there?

B: Yes, I think so. 		所以在这个层面上已经清楚了。 我们可以从那里往下进行了吗？

博姆：是的，我认为可以。
22:23 K: Now, I'd like to ask, is there another order totally different from this? This is man-made disorder, and therefore man-made order. Right? 克：现在，我想问，有没有另一种秩序 是与这个完全不同的？ 这是人为的失序， 所以也是人为的秩序，对吗？
22:43 B: Yes, both. 博姆：是的，都是。
22:46 K: The chaos and the cosmos is man-made. 克：混乱和宇宙都是人为的。
22:52 B: Not the real cosmos. 博姆：不是真的宇宙。
22:54 K: No, I beg your pardon, cosmos is not. 克：不是，请原谅，宇宙不是人为的。
22:57 B: The order which we see in this room, the microphone, the television is man-made, which is a high degree of order, and also we see all the fighting going on.

K: It's man-made. 		博姆：我们在这个房间里看到的秩序， 麦克风、电视是人为的， 这是一种高级的秩序，我们也能看到 所有的争斗在里面上演着。

克：那是人为的。
23:06 B: Man made the terrible programmes put on this orderly television system. 博姆：人类制造了这些可怕的节目， 放在了这个有序的电视系统里播出。
23:14 K: Yes. So realising that, seeing disorder and that human mind can bring about order in itself, then it begins to ask, is there an order which is totally different, of a dimension which is necessary to find, because this is so small affair. 克：是的。所以认识到了这些，看到了失序， 也看到人心可以为自己带来秩序， 然后它就开始问，有没有一种秩序 是完全不同的，属于一个 有必要去发现的维度， 因为这些都太微不足道了。
23:40 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
23:44 K: I put my house in order. All right. Then what? And if perhaps, many of us do it, we'll have a better society Yes, that is admitted, that is relevant, that is necessary, but that has its limitation. 克：我让房子井井有条了。好的。然后呢？ 也许，如果我们很多人那么做，我们就会拥有一个更好的社会。 是的，这个我们都承认，这是重要的、有必要的， 但也是有限的。
24:03 B: Eventually people won't be able to be satisfied with that, so they'll be bored with that. 博姆：最终人们会不满足于此， 所以他们会对此感到厌倦。
24:10 Although, as you say, we have to have it. 尽管，就像你说的，我们必须拥有它。
24:16 K: Yes. Now how do we find, how does a human being who has really deeply understood disorder made by human beings and therefore affecting society, he says, 'Is there an order that is beyond all this?' 克：是的。那么，我们如何发现，一个人如何发现 ——他真的深刻理解了 人类制造的 进而影响社会的失序，他说， “有没有一种秩序超越了这一切？”
24:48 B: How do we get into that question? 博姆：那我们要如何探究这个问题？
24:52 K: Yes, how do we? The human mind isn't satisfied by merely having physical, social order, it has its limitations, it has its boundaries, and says, 'Yes, I've understood that, let's move.' 克：是的，如何探究？ 人心不满足于仅仅 拥有物质上的、社会的秩序，那是有限的， 有自己的边界，于是他说， “是的，那个我明白了，我们继续向前吧。”
25:15 B: Say, in science, men are seeking the order of the whole universe, looking to what they feel to be the end or the beginning, or to the depth of its structure, not in order to get useful results but because the question fascinates them. 博姆：比如说，在科学界，人们在寻找 整个宇宙的秩序，探究 他们所认为的尽头或者开端， 或者探究其深层的结构， 不是为了得到什么有用的结果，而只是因为 这个问题让他们着迷。
25:33 K: This is not a fascinating question! 克：这可不是一个令人着迷的问题！
25:34 B: No, but I'm saying it does... 博姆：不是，但我只是说它确实
25:36 It interests them. Perhaps, men have been seeking the absolute and the word 'absolute' means to be free of all limitation, of all dependence, of all imperfection. 它确实让他们感兴趣。 也许，人们一直在寻找那绝对之物， 而“绝对”一词就意味着摆脱了所有局限、 所有依赖、所有不完美。
25:54 K: Yes, of all motives – absolute! 克：是的，所有动机——绝对的！
25:57 B: So the absolute has been the source of tremendous illusion, because the limited self seeks to capture the absolute. 博姆：所以那绝对之物也成了巨大幻觉的源头， 因为局限的自我企图捕捉到那绝对之物。
26:06 K: Of course, that's impossible. 克：当然，那是不可能的。
26:09 B: But that's the common... 博姆：但这就是通常
26:12 But supposing we recognise that the absolute is a very dangerous concept, when the mind tries to grasp it, and yet it seems to be what is necessary, in the sense of freedom, freedom could only mean the same as absolute, you see. 但是假设我们认识到绝对之物 是一个非常危险的概念，当头脑试图抓住它， 而那看起来似乎又是必要的， 就自由而言， “自由”只可能具有和“绝对”同样的含义，你知道的。
26:32 Because anything that is dependent in any way is not free. 因为有任何依赖的任何事物都是不自由的。
26:38 K: So how do we approach this, how do we answer this question? As a scientist, would you say there is an order which is beyond all human order and disorder? 克：所以我们要如何探究这个问题，我们要如何回答这个问题？ 作为一名科学家，你会说存在一种秩序 超越了人类所有的秩序和失序吗？
27:05 B: I would say it. I don't think 'as a scientist' is particularly significant. Science may be seeking this sort of thing, but it really has no more to say on it, it is not able to say anything on this question because any order discovered by science is relative. 博姆：我会这么说。我不认为“作为一个科学家” 有什么特别重要的。 科学可能是在寻找这种东西， 但它实际上对此没什么可说的， 对于这个问题，它无法发表任何说法， 因为科学发现的任何秩序都是相对的。
27:23 K: Their own egotism... 克：他们自己的自我中心
27:24 B: Not only that but also the information we have is limited. 博姆：不只是那些，而且我们拥有的信息也是有限的。
27:29 And we can only say, 'it goes so far'. 我们只能说，“只到这里。”
27:33 K: So are we moving to a world of either illusion – because demanding it may create illusion... 克：所以我们是不是在走向另一个幻觉的世界， 因为追求它也会制造幻觉
27:42 B: I feel it does create illusion, that if man demands the absolute and tries to satisfy it in thought, that's illusion. 博姆：我觉得那确实会制造幻觉， 如果人类追求绝对之物 并且试图在思想中得到满足，那就是幻觉。
27:51 K: I'm not asking that question, from that point of view. 克：我的问题不是从那个角度提出的。
27:53 B: But not knowing what to do, men have felt the need for the absolute and not knowing how to get it they have created the illusion of it in religion and in science or in many other ways. 博姆：但是人们不知道该做什么，可还是觉得需要那个绝对之物， 同时又不知道如何得到它，他们就制造了关于它的幻觉 ——通过宗教、通过科学或者通过很多其他的方式。
28:05 K: So what shall I do? As a human being, – a human being who is the totality of human beings – there is order in my life. That order is naturally brought about through insight and so perhaps it will affect society. We move from that. The enquiry then is, is there an order which is not man-made. Let's put it that way. I won't even call it absolute order, or... 克：那我该怎么办呢？作为一个人 ——一个人就是人类的整体—— 我的生活中有了秩序。 这种秩序是通过洞察自然而然建立起来的， 所以它可能会影响社会。我们从这里往下探讨。 那么接下来的问题就是，有没有一种秩序不是人为制造的。 我们先来这么表述。 我甚至都不会称之为“绝对秩序”，或者
29:01 B: At least it's free of man's construction. 博姆：至少它摆脱了人类的架构。
29:05 K: Yes. 克：是的。
29:09 B: And now we have the order of nature, the cosmos which we don't really know in its depth but we could consider that to be that sort of order. 博姆：那现在我们有了自然、宇宙的秩序， 虽然我们其实对它并没有深入的了解， 但是我们可以认为它就是那种秩序。
29:21 K: I mean, the very word 'cosmos' means order. 克：我的意思是，“宇宙”这个词本身就意味着秩序。
29:24 B: Yes, it's the Greek word for order. 博姆：是的，那是希腊语里的“秩序”一词。
29:28 K: Yes. Nature is in order. Unless man interferes with it, nature is in order, has its own order. 克：是的。大自然就是有序的。 除非人类干涉它，否则自然就是有序的， 拥有自身的秩序。
29:38 B: Yes, it has its own order and even what we call disorder in nature is part of the order. It's not really disorder. 博姆：是的，它拥有自身的秩序，即使 我们所谓自然界中的混乱也是秩序的一部分。 那并不是真正的失序。
29:46 K: No, we call it disorder but in itself it is not disorder. All right. Finished with that. Now let's move to something else. 克：对，我们叫它“失序”，但它本身并不是失序。 好的。这个讲完了。我们现在来到另一个问题上。
30:03 Man has sought a different dimension and perhaps used the word 'order'. He has sought a different dimension, because he has understood this dimension. He has lived in it, he has suffered in it, he has gone through all kinds of mess and misery, he says, 'I've come to the end of all that.' Not verbally, actually come to the end of all that. And you may say there are very few people who do that, but this question must be put. 人类一直在寻找另一个维度， 可能也用了“秩序”这个词。 人类一直在寻找另一个维度， 因为他了解了这个维度。 他一直生活在其中，在其中受苦， 他经历了各种混乱和苦难， 他说，“我走到了这一切的尽头。” 不是口头上说说，而是真的走到了这一切的尽头。 你也许会说很少有人做到了这个， 但是这个问题必须被提出来。
30:53 B: Yes, I could ask what is the significance of this question to, say, the vast number of people who have not gone through that? 博姆：是的，我会问这个问题对于 大多数人有什么意义， 那些并没有结束那个过程的人？
31:01 K: I don't quite follow. 克：我不太明白。
31:04 B: You say the man who has gone through that may put this question. Is it of any interest to the one who hasn't gone through it? 博姆：你说结束了那些的人 可以提出这个问题。 它对于没有结束那些的人有任何益处吗？
31:15 K: I think it is. 克：我认为是有的。
31:17 Even intellectually, he may see the limitations of it. 即使从理性层面，他也可以看到那种生活的局限。
31:21 B: It's important for him to see, even before he has finished up with it. not to say, 'I'll wait until I clear it up...' 博姆：重要的是让他看到， 哪怕是在他结束那种生活之前。 而不是说，“我要等到我清理干净了再说……”
31:31 K: That would be too stupid! So how does the mind approach this problem? I think man has struggled to find this out, sir. I mean, all religious people, so-called religious people, have attempted to grasp this – the mystics, the saints with their illusions – they have tried to understand something which is not all this. Does it come about, through... – if I may use the word – meditation as measure? 克：那就太愚蠢了！ 那么，头脑如何着手这个问题？ 我认为人类为了弄清这个问题已经费尽了周章，先生。 我是说所有的宗教人士， 所谓的宗教人士，试图领悟这个， 神秘主义者们、圣人们带着他们的幻觉， 试图了解某种完全不是那一切的东西。 它的到来是通过 如果我可以用这个词，通过衡量式的冥想吗？
33:28 B: We've discussed that here in Brockwood, that the original meaning of the word 'meditation' is to measure, to ponder, to weigh the value and significance. 博姆：我们在布洛克伍德这里讨论过了， “冥想”这个词最初的含义是 衡量、沉思、权衡价值和意义。
33:40 K: Weigh means to measure. 克：权衡意味着衡量。
33:42 B: Yes, meditation would mean to measure in some deeper sense that just with a ruler... But even so, perhaps that may have meant that such a measurement would only have significance for seeing that there is disorder. 博姆：是的，冥想就意味着 更深层次的衡量，而不只是用尺子 但即使如此，可能它还是意味着 这种衡量的意义仅仅在于 看到失序的存在。
34:00 K: That's it, measurement can exist only where there is disorder. 克：就是这样， 衡量只能存在于有失序的地方。
34:06 B: Yes, but by looking at the measurement, at the way things are out of proportion in the mind, you can see there is disorder. But that is not the order, of course. 博姆：是的，但是通过观察衡量的情况， 观察事物在心中是如何比例失衡的， 你可以看到失序的存在。 但那并不是秩序，当然。
34:17 K: No. We are using the word meditation not as measure, or even to ponder, or think over, but a meditation that is the outcome of... bringing about order in the house, and moving from there. 克：不是。我们用“冥想”这个词 不是指衡量，甚至不是指沉思或者思索， 而是一种源自于 为房子带来秩序 然后再超越于此的冥想。
34:53 B: Right. People may have used the word meditation to indicate that, by looking at measure, you can see disorder as being out of proportion, but they may have meant to go on from there. 博姆：没错。人们用“冥想”这个词 可能指的是，通过观察量度， 你可以看到失序，也就是比例失衡， 但他们的意思可能也包含了从那里继续向前。
35:06 K: But they don't seem to, somehow. 克：但是他们看起来并没有，或多或少。
35:08 B: People don't generally do it.

K: Yes, let's try to do it. Rather preposterous statement perhaps, but let's see. 		博姆：人们通常不那么做。

克：是的，我们来试试看。 可能听起来像是很荒唐的说法，但是我们来看一看。
35:19 B: If we see things are in disorder in the mind, then what is meditation? 博姆：如果我们看到了心中的事物是失序的， 那冥想是什么呢？
35:26 K: First mind must be free of measurement. Otherwise it can't enter into the other. 克：首先，心必须摆脱衡量。 否则它就无法进入另一个。
35:34 B: That's an important point. Almost the instinctive reaction of seeing this disorder, this disorder is itself a disproportionate measurement and therefore the instinctive tendency is to try to make the measure come right, to correct it. That might be the fundamental mistake. 博姆：这是很重要的一点。 看到这种失序后会有一种几乎是本能的反应， 这种失序本身就是一种比例失调的衡量， 因此本能的倾向就是 试图让量度走正，去纠正它。 这也许就是最根本的错误。
35:55 K: We said all effort to bring order into disorder is disorder. 克：我们说过所有为失序带来秩序的努力 都是失序。
36:01 B: Yes, this is very different from what almost everybody has been saying. over the whole of history. 博姆：是的，这跟 贯穿整个历史几乎所有人的说法 都很不一样。
36:07 K: I know. Perhaps we are... exception. 克：我知道。可能我们是……例外。
36:12 B: Maybe there are a few who have implied it. It's implicit in what a few have said but it's never been said explicitly to my knowledge. 博姆：也许有几个人含蓄地这么说过。 有少数几个人说的话里隐含了这个意思， 但是据我所知从未非常直白地说过。
36:22 K: All right, let's explicitly say it. 克：好的，那我们就直白地把它说出来。
36:26 B: It is the attempt to control that is wrong, it has no meaning. And now we say, there's no control, what do we do? 博姆：错的是想要控制的企图，那么做没有丝毫意义。 而现在我们说，没有控制，那我们该怎么办？
36:37 K: No, no, no. If I have an insight into the whole nature of control. 克：不，不，不。 只要我对控制的整个本质有一份洞察就好。
36:46 B: Control is measure, you see...

K: Of course, control is measure – that liberates the mind from that burden. 		博姆：控制就是衡量，你知道……

克：当然，控制就是衡量 ——这就把心从那个负担下解放了出来。
36:59 B: Yes. Could you explain the nature of this insight, what it means. 博姆：是的。你能否解释一下这份洞察的实质， 它的含义是什么。
37:06 K: We said that. Insight is not a movement from knowledge, from thought, and therefore remembrance, etc., but the cessation of all that and to look at it, look at the problem with pure observation, without any pressure, without any motive, to observe this whole movement of measurement. 克：我们说过了。洞察不是 来自于知识、来自于思想 进而来自于记忆等等的活动， 而是那一切的止息，然后去看它， 用纯粹的观察去看那个问题， 没有任何压力，没有任何动机， 去观察这整个衡量的活动。
37:38 B: We can see that: measurement is the same as becoming and the attempt of the mind to measure itself, to control itself to set itself a goal, to compare itself is the very source of the disorder. 博姆：我们可以看到：衡量是跟成为一样的活动， 而头脑企图衡量它自己，控制它自己， 为自己设下一个目标，比较它自己， 正是失序的根源。
37:58 K: That is the very source of disorder. 克：那就是失序的根源。
38:00 B: And in a way that was the wrong turning when man extended measurement from the external sphere into the mind.

K: Yes. 		博姆：可以说那就是转错的那个弯， 当人类把衡量 从外界延伸到了内心。

克：是的。
38:14 B: But the first reaction would be if we don't control this thing it will go wild. That's what somebody might fear. 博姆：但是人们的第一反应会是如果我们不控制， 这件事就会不可收拾。 这就是有的人会害怕的。
38:25 K: If I have an insight into measurement, that very insight not only banishes all movement of measurement there is a different order there! 克：如果我对衡量有了洞察， 那洞察本身就不仅消除了所有衡量的活动， 而且还有了一种不同的秩序！
38:40 B: Yes, it does not go wild...

K: It doesn't go wild, on the contrary! 		博姆：是的，事情并没有不可收拾……

克：没有不可收拾，恰恰相反！
38:45 B: Yes. That is really the attempt to measure which makes it go wild. 博姆：是的。实际上正是衡量的企图让事情不可收拾的。
38:49 K: That's right. The measurement is 'wild-ing'... is confusion. Right? Now let's proceed. After establishing all this, can this mind, through meditation – we're using the word meditation without any sense of measurement, comparison – can that mind find an order, a state where there is no where there is, let's be more positive, something which is not man-made. Because one has been through all the man-made things. Right? And they are all limitation, there is no freedom in it, there is chaos, there is mess and all that. 克：没错。衡量就是“不可收拾” 就是混乱。对吗？ 现在我们继续往下进行。在确立了这些之后， 这颗心能否通过冥想 ——我们用“冥想”这个词 没有任何衡量、比较的含义—— 这颗心能否发现一种秩序、一种状态，当中没有 当中有——我们说得明确点儿—— 某种非人为的东西。 因为我们已经了结了所有人为的东西。对吗？ 而它们都是局限，其中没有自由， 只有混乱，只有乱糟糟的一团。
39:55 B: When you say you've been through man-made things, what are they? 博姆：当你说我们了结了各种人为的东西， 它们是什么呢？
40:02 K: Everything! Like religion, science, worship, prayers, anxieties, sorrow, attachment, detachment, loneliness and suffering and confusion and ache and anxiety, loneliness, all that. 克：一切！ 比如宗教，科学，崇拜，祷告， 焦虑，悲伤，依附，超脱， 孤独，苦难，困惑，痛苦， 焦虑，寂寞，那一切。
40:23 B: Also all the attempts, by revolution... 博姆：还有各种企图，通过革命
40:26 K: Of course, physical revolution, psychological, all that. Those are all man-made. So many people have put this question, obviously, must have. And therefore they say, God. Which is another concept, and that very concept creates disorder. 克：当然，外在革命，心理革命，那一切。 那些都是人为的。 所以很多人提出过这个问题，显然如此，也必定提出过。 于是他们说，“上帝。” 那不过是另一个概念， 而这个概念本身就造成了失序。
40:51 B: That's clear that man has invented God and given him the power of the absolute. 博姆：显然是人类发明了上帝， 然后给了他绝对之物的力量。
40:57 K: Yes, quite.

B: Which is himself. 		克：是的，没错。

博姆：也就是他自己。
41:02 K: Which then becomes himself. 克：然后就变成了他自己。
41:05 B: Yes, therefore it becomes dead. 博姆：是的，所以它就变得僵死了。
41:08 K: Chaotic.

B: It dominates him. 		克：还有混乱。

博姆：它主宰了他。
41:09 K: Now, one has finished with all that. Right? Now then the question is, is there something beyond all this, which is never touched by human thought, mind? 克：现在，一个人已经了结了那一切。对吗？ 那么接下来的问题就是，有没有什么是超越这一切的， 从未被人类的思想、心灵所触及？
41:36 B: That makes a difficult point, not touched by the human mind, but mind might go beyond thought. 博姆：这就构成了一个难点，未被人心所触及， 但心灵也许可以超越思想。
41:45 Do you mean by the mind only thought, feeling, desire and will, or something much more? 你所说的“心灵”的含义， 只是思想、感受、欲望和意志力， 还是某种更多的东西？
41:53 K: For the time being, we have said the human mind is all that. 克：目前来讲，我们说了 人心就是那些。
41:57 B: But the mind is now considered to be limited. 博姆：但是那样心灵就被认为是有限的了。
42:01 K: No, no. As long as the human mind is caught in that, it is limited. 克：不，不。 只要人心被困在那里面，它就是有限的。
42:06 B: Yes, the human mind has potential.

K: Tremendous potential. 		博姆：是的，但人心是有潜力的。

克：巨大的潜力。
42:10 B: But it is not realised now, it is caught in thought, feeling, desire and will. 博姆：但是现在还没有实现，它还被困在 思想、感受、欲望和意志力当中。
42:19 Then that which is beyond this is not touched by this limited sort of mind. 而那个超越于此的东西 未被这种局限的心灵所触及。
42:43 Now what will we mean by the mind which is beyond this limit? 那我们所说的 超越了这种局限的心灵是什么呢？
42:49 K: First of all, sir, is there such a mind? 克：首先，先生，存在这样的一颗心吗？
42:53 Is there such a mind that is actually – not theoretically or romantically, all that nonsense – actually said, 'I have been through this'? 是否存在这样的一颗心，确实而不是从理论上 或者想入非非之类， 而是实实在在地说，“我已经穿越了这些？”
43:08 B: Through the limited stuff. 博姆：穿越了有限的东西。
43:10 K: And being through it means finished with it. Is there such a mind? Or because it has finished with it, or it thinks it has finished with it, therefore creates the illusion that there is something else. 克：穿越了它就意味着了结了它。 存在这样的一颗心吗？ 还是说，因为它了结了那些， 或者它以为自己了结了那些， 于是制造了一个幻觉，认为还存在别的东西。
43:37 I won't accept that. As a human being, one person, or X, says, 'I have understood this, I have seen the limitation of all this, I have lived through it, and I have come to the end of it.' And this mind, having come to the end of it, is no longer the limited mind. And is there a mind which is not... which is totally limitless? You follow what I mean? 我不会接受那个。 作为一个人类，一个人，或者甲，说， “我了解了这些， 我看到了这一切的局限， 我经历了那些，然后来到了它的终点。” 那么这颗心，已经来到了那些的终点， 就不再是那颗局限的心了。 那么是否存在这样一颗心它不是 它是完全超越了时间的？ 你明白我的意思吗？
44:26 B: Yes, now that raises the question of how the brain is able to be in contact with that mind. What is the relation between that unlimited mind and the brain? 博姆：是的，现在就有了这个问题： 大脑如何才能接触到那颗心。 那颗无限的心 和大脑有什么关系？
44:38 K: I want to be clear on this point, it's rather interesting if we go into it. This mind – brain, the whole of it, the whole nature and the structure of the mind, which includes the emotions, the brain, the reactions, the physical responses and all that – this mind has lived in turmoil, in chaos, in loneliness and has had a profound insight into all that. And having such a deep insight, cleared the field. This mind is no longer that mind. 克：我想弄清楚这一点， 这个问题很有趣，如果我们探究一下的话。 这颗心——大脑，这个整体， 心灵的整个本质和结构，包括了感情、 大脑、反应、身体反应等等那一切—— 这颗心一直活在混乱、动荡、孤独中， 然后对那一切有了一份深刻的洞察。 而拥有这样深刻的洞察就清空了那个领域。 这颗心不再是那颗心了。
45:26 B: Yes, it's no longer the original limited mind. 博姆：是的，不再是原来那颗有限的心了。
45:29 K: Yes. No longer the limited mind. 克：是的。不再是那颗有限的心了。
45:32 B: That you began with. 博姆：你一开始讲的那颗心。
45:34 K: Damaged mind. Let's use that word damaged. 克：受损的心。我们就用“受损”这个词。
45:37 B: Damaged mind, also damaged brain, the same working has damaged the brain.

K: Yes, all right. 		博姆：受损的心，也是受损的大脑， 同一种活动也损害了大脑。

克：是的，没错。
45:47 B: So we have thought, damaged mind, damaged brain. 博姆：所以我们有思想、受损的心、受损的大脑。
45:50 K: ...damaged emotions, damaged brain... 克：……受损的感情，受损的大脑
45:52 B: The cells themselves are not in the right order. 博姆：脑细胞本身没有处在正确的秩序中。
45:57 K: But when there is this insight and therefore order, the damage is undone. 克：但是当有了这份洞察，进而有了秩序， 损伤就被消除了。
46:05 B: Yes. We discussed that the previous time. 博姆：是的。这个我们之前讨论过了。
46:08 K: I don't know it you agree to that even. 克：我不知道你是否连这个也会同意。
46:14 B: Certainly you see it's possible, by reasoning you can see it's quite possible, because you can say the damage was done by disorderly thoughts and feelings, which over-excite the cells and disrupt them now with the insight, that stops and a new process is set up. 博姆：当然，你能看到那是可能的， 通过推理，你可以看到那很有可能， 因为你可以说损伤是由 失序的思想和感受造成的， 它们让脑细胞过度兴奋，扰乱了它们， 而有了洞察，那个过程就停止了， 一个新过程就启动了。
46:32 K: Like a person going for fifty years in a certain direction and realises suddenly that that's not the direction, the whole brain changes. 克：就像一个人50年来都在 往某个方向走，然后他突然意识到 那不是正确的方向，于是整个大脑就改变了。
46:42 B: It changes at the core then the wrong structure is dismantled and healed, that may take time. But the insight... 博姆：它的核心改变了， 然后错误的结构被拆除、被治愈， 那可能会花些时间。但是洞察
46:51 K: ...is the factor that changes. 克：……是带来改变的因素。
46:53 B: Yes, and that insight does not take time. But it means that the whole process has changed the origin. 博姆：是的，而且那份洞察不需要花时间。 但是那意味着这个整个过程已经改变了源头。
47:02 K: Again, that mind, the limited mind, with its consciousness and its content, says, I have been..., etc., it's over – that part. Now is that mind, which has been limited, and having had insight into this limitation, and therefore moved away from that limitation, is that an actuality, a something that is really tremendously revolutionary? You follow? And therefore it is no longer the human mind – forgive me for using that word. 克：那颗心，那颗局限的心， 连同它的意识和它的内容， 说，“我已经……等等，那个部分已经结束了。” 那么，那颗心之前是局限的， 然后拥有了对这局限的洞察， 进而脱离了局限， 这是不是一个事实，一件真正具有 巨大的革命性的事情？你明白吗？ 因此它不再是 人类的心灵了——原谅我用这个词。
47:59 B: We should clear that up, what we mean by the human mind. 博姆：我们应该把这点说清楚， 我们说的“人心”是什么意思。
48:04 K: Human mind with its consciousness, which is limited. 克：人心连同它的意识，是局限的。
48:08 B: Yes, that limited consciousness which is conditioned, not free. 博姆：是的，那个局限的意识受到了制约，是不自由的。
48:12 K: That is ended. 克：它被终结了。
48:18 B: That is the general consciousness which has been the case, not just in individuals but it has been all round. 博姆：那是那个一直存在的总体意识， 并非只是个体身上的意识，而是遍及全人类的意识。
48:26 K: I'm not talking of an individual, that's too silly. 克：我说的不是个体，那就太愚蠢了。
48:28 B: We discussed that, that the individual is the outcome of the general consciousness, a particular outcome, rather than an independent thing, that's one of the difficulties.

K: That's one of the confusions. 		博姆：这个我们讨论过了， 个体是总体意识的产物， 一个特定的产物，而不是一个独立的存在， 这是难点之一。

克：这是困惑之一。
48:40 B: The confusion is we take the individual mind to be the concrete actuality. It's necessary to consider this general mind to be the actuality from which the individual mind has formed. 博姆：困惑就在于我们把个体的心灵 当成了确凿的事实。 有必要思考一下这个总体的心灵 才是事实，个体的心灵是从中产生的。
48:54 K: That's all very clear. 克：这都很清楚了。
48:57 B: But now we say we move away even from that general mind, but what does it mean? 博姆：但是现在我们说，甚至还要脱离那个总体的心灵， 可那是什么意思呢？
49:02 K: Yes, the general and the particular mind.

B: And the particular mind. 		克：是的，总体和个别的心灵。

博姆：和个别的心灵。
49:05 K: Now, if one has totally moved away from it, then what is the mind? 克：那么，如果一个人彻底从中脱离了出来， 那么心灵又是什么呢？
49:14 B: Yes, and what is the person, right? 博姆：是的，还有，那个人又是什么呢，对吗？
49:16 K: What is a human being then. Then what is the relationship between that mind, which is not man-made mind, and the man-made mind? 克：一个人又是什么。 还有，那颗心， 不是人为的心灵和人为的心灵之间是什么关系？
49:31 I don't know if I'm making myself clear. 我不知道有没有表达清楚。
49:32 B: Did we agree to call it universal mind, or would you prefer not to? 博姆：我们是不是曾经同意称之为“普世心”， 还是你不愿这么叫？
49:39 K: I don't like that word universal mind, lots of people used it. Let's use a much simpler word. 克：我不喜欢那个词——普世心， 很多人这么用过。我们用个更简单的词。
49:51 B: Well, it's the mind which was not made by man. 博姆：嗯，它是并非人为造就的心灵。
49:55 K: I think that's simpler, I'll keep to that. A mind which is not made by man. 克：我认为这个简单一些，我就用这个了。 一颗并非人为造就的心。
50:01 B: Neither individually nor in general. 博姆：既不是个人的，也不是总体的。
50:04 K: Generally or individually, it's not made by man. Sir, can one observe, really, deeply, without any prejudice, does such a mind exist? You follow what I'm trying to say? 克：无论总体的还是个人的，它都不是人为制造的。 先生，一个人能否真正地、深入地观察， 没有任何偏见， 这样的一颗心是否存在？你明白我想说的意思吗？
50:35 B: Let's see what that means to observe that. There are some difficulties of language here, because we say one must observe... 博姆：我们来看看观察那个是什么意思。 这里有些语言上的困难，因为我们说 一个人必须观察
50:46 K: I observe.

B: Yes, who observes? That's one of the problems. 		克：我观察。

博姆：是的，谁观察？ 这是问题之一。
50:52 K: We've been through all that. There is no division in observation. Not, I observe, there is only observation. 克：这些我们都讲过了。 观察中没有分裂。 不是“我观察”，存在的只有观察。
51:01 B: Observation takes place. Would you say it takes place in a particular brain, or a particular brain takes part in the observation? 博姆：观察发生了。 你会说它发生在一个特定的大脑里， 还是一个特定的大脑参与了观察？
51:13 K: I know the catch in this. No, sir, it doesn't take in a particular brain. 克：我知道这里边的陷阱。 不，先生，它不是发生在一个特定的大脑里。
51:22 B: Yes, but it seems that a particular brain may respond. 博姆：是的，但是看起来是一个特定的大脑在回应。
51:25 K: Of course, but it is not... K's brain. 克：当然，但它不是……克的大脑。
51:30 B: I don't mean that, what I mean by the word particular brain, we could say, a certain human being in space and time, whatever his form is, not giving him a name, is distinguished from another one which might be there or there. 博姆：我不是那个意思， 我用“特定大脑”指的意思是， 我们可以说，空间和时间里的某个人， 无论他是什么外形，也不用给他一个名字， 他跟另一个在别处的人是可以区分开的。
51:48 K: Look, sir, let's get clear on this point. We live in a man-made world, man-made mind, we are the result of man-made minds – our brains and so on, brain, with all its responses, not the actual... 克：瞧，先生，我们来把这一点澄清。 我们活在一个人为的世界、人造的心灵里， 我们就是人造心灵的产物， 我们的大脑，等等， 大脑，连同它所有的反应，不是实际的
52:17 B: The brain itself is not man-made but it has been conditioned. Man-made conditioning. 博姆：大脑本身不是人造的，但 它被局限了。人为的局限。
52:22 K: Right, that's what I mean. Now, can that mind uncondition itself so completely that it's no longer man-made?

B: Yes, that's the question. 		克：对，这就是我的意思。 那么，这颗心能否 如此彻底地解除自身的制约， 于是它不再是人造的了？

博姆：是的，这就是问题所在。
52:41 K: That is the question – let's keep it to that simple level. Can that man-made mind – as it is now – can it go to that extent, to so completely liberate itself from itself? 克：这就是问题所在——我们就待在这个简单的层面上。 如今这颗人为的心灵能否， 它能否去到那个程度， 如此彻底地从它自身中解放出来？
53:05 B: Yes, of course that's a somewhat paradoxical statement. 博姆：是的，当然这或多或少是个自相矛盾的表述。
53:08 K: Paradoxical but it's actual, it is so. Wait, let's begin again. One can observe the consciousness of humanity is its content. And its content is all the man-made things, anxiety, fear, and all the rest of it. And it is not only particular it is the general. Having had an insight into this, it has cleansed itself of that. 克：自相矛盾，但是千真万确，确实如此。 等一下，我们再重新开始。 一个人可以观察到人类的意识就是它的内容。 而它的内容都是各种人造的东西， 焦虑、恐惧，诸如此类。 而且它不仅仅是个别的，也是共有的。 对此有了洞察， 它就让自己清除了那些。
53:49 B: That implies that it was always potentially more than that but that insight enabled it to be free of that. Is that what you...? 博姆：这意味着它始终具有比那些内容更为广阔的潜力， 而那份洞察就让它摆脱了那些。 这是你说的意思吗？
53:59 K: That insight – I won't say it is potential. 克：那份洞察——我不会说那是潜力。
54:06 B: Yes, there is a little difficulty of language, that if you say the brain or the mind had an insight into its own conditioning and then almost you're saying it became something else. 博姆：好的，语言表达上有些困难， 如果你说大脑或者心灵洞察了 它自己的局限， 然后你差不多就是说它变成了另一种东西。
54:22 K: Yes, I am saying that, I am saying that. 克：是的，我是这么说的，我是这个意思。
54:24 B: Right. OK. 博姆：是的，好的。
54:27 K: The insight transforms the man-made mind. 克：洞察转变了人造的心灵。
54:32 B: But then you say it's no longer the man-made mind. 博姆：但是然后你说它不再是人造的心灵了。
54:36 K: It's no longer. That insight means the wiping away of all the content of consciousness. Right? Not bit by bit by bit, the totality of it. And that insight is not the result of man's endeavour. 克：不再是了。那份洞察 意味着抹掉了意识的所有内容。 对吗？不是一点点地，而抹掉了它的全部。 而那份洞察不是人类努力的结果。
54:59 B: Yes, but then that seems to raise the question of where does it come from. 博姆：对，但接下来似乎就有了这个问题： 它是从哪里来的。
55:06 K: All right. Where does it come from? Yes. In the brain itself, in the mind itself. 克：好的。它是从哪里来的？ 是的。就在大脑本身之中，心灵本身之中。
55:20 B: Which, the brain or the mind? 博姆：是哪个，大脑还是心灵？
55:23 K: Mind. I'm saying the whole of it. 克：心灵。我说的是那个整体。
55:27 B: We say there is mind, right?

K: Just a minute, sir. it's rather interesting, let's go slowly. The consciousness is man-made, general and particular. And logically, reasonably one sees the limitations of it. Then the mind is gone much further. Then it comes to a point when it says, 'Can all this be wiped away at one breath, one blow, one movement.' And that movement is insight, the movement of insight. It is still in the mind but not born out of that consciousness. I don't know if I'm making myself clear. 		博姆：我们说心灵是有的，对吗？

克：等一下，先生。 这相当有趣，我们慢慢来。 意识是人造的，总体的和个别的都是。 并且从逻辑上、理性上我们可以看到它的局限性。 然后心灵走到了更远处。 然后它来到了某一步，这时它说， “这一切能否被一举抹除，只消一击， 一个动作。”而那个动作就是洞察， 洞察的活动。 那依旧在心灵之中， 但并非脱胎于那个意识。 我不知道是不是说清楚了。
56:32 B: Yes. Then you are saying the mind has the possibility, or potential, of moving from beyond the consciousness but we haven't actually done much of it. 博姆：是的。然后你说心灵是有这个可能性 或者潜力的，可以脱离并超越那个意识， 但我们实际上并没有做到多少。
56:41 K: Of course. It must be a part of the mind. 克：当然。它必须是心灵的一部分。
56:45 B: The brain, mind can do that, but it hasn't generally done it. 博姆：大脑、心灵可以做到， 但是它通常并没有那么做。
56:51 K: Now, having done all this, is there a mind which is not... not only man-made, which man cannot conceive, cannot create, it is not an illusion. Is there such a mind? I don't know if I am making myself clear. 克：那么，在做了这些之后， 有没有一颗心， 它不只不再是人为的， 也是人无法设想、无法造就的， 它不是一个幻觉。存在这样的一颗心吗？ 我不知道有没有表达清楚。
57:27 B: What you are saying is, having freed itself the mind has... 博姆：你说的是， 已经解放了自己，这颗心已经
57:32 K: General and particular. 克：总体的和个别的。
57:34 B: ...freed it from the general and particular structure of consciousness of mankind, from its limits, and now this mind is now much greater. Now you say, this mind, is raising a question, right? 博姆：……把自己从总体的和个别的 人类意识结构中、从它的局限中解放了出来， 现在这颗心要广阔得多了。 然后你说，这颗心提出了一个问题，对吗？
57:48 K: This mind is raising a question.

B: Which is what? 		克：这颗心提出了一个问题。

博姆：那是什么？
57:51 K: Which is... First, is that mind free from the man-made mind? That's the first question.

B: It may be an illusion. 		克：那是 首先，那颗心从人为的心灵中解放出来了吗？ 这是第一个问题。

博姆：那可能是一个幻觉。
58:08 K: Illusion, one has to be very clear. No, it is not an illusion, because he sees measurement is illusion, he knows the nature of illusions, where there is desire there must be illusions. And illusions must create limitation, and so on. He has not only understood it, he's over. 克：幻觉，一个人必须非常清楚。 不，那不是一个幻觉，因为他看到了衡量是幻觉， 他知道幻觉的本质， 只要有欲望，就必定会有幻觉。 而幻觉必然会制造局限，等等。 他不只是明白了这一点，他了结了那些。
58:36 B: He's free of desire. 博姆：他摆脱了欲望。
58:38 K: Free of desire. That is the nature. I don't want to put it so brutally. Free of desire. 克：摆脱了欲望。这就是实质所在。 我不想说得这么粗暴。摆脱了欲望。
58:47 B: It is full of energy. 博姆：它充满了能量。
58:49 K: Yes. So this mind, which is no longer general and particular, and therefore not limited, and this limitation has been... broken down through insight, and therefore the mind is no longer that conditioned mind. Right?

B: Yes. 		克：是的。所以这颗心，不再是 总体的和个别的了，因而也就不再是局限的了， 这种局限已经被 洞察打破了， 因此心灵不再是那颗局限的心了。 对吗？

博姆：是的。
59:20 K: Now, then what is that mind? Being aware that it is no longer caught in illusion. 克：那么，那颗心是什么呢？ 记得它不再受困于幻觉中了。
59:32 B: Yes, but you were saying it was raising a question about whether there is some much greater... 博姆：是的，但是你刚才说它提出了一个问题， 关于有没有某种更为广阔的东西
59:37 K: Yes, that's why I'm raising the question, is there a mind which is not man-made? And if there is, what is its relationship to the man-made mind? 克：是的，那就是我为什么会提出这个问题： 有没有一颗心不是人造的？ 如果有的话， 它和人造的心灵之间有什么关系？
1:00:00 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
1:00:03 K: This is very difficult. 克：这个问题很难。
1:00:08 It's half past twelve, do we go on?

B: If you feel like it. 		已经十二点半了，我们继续吗？

博姆：如果你愿意的话。
1:00:11 K: I can go on, it's fun. Go up to a quarter to one. 克：我可以继续，这很好玩儿。到差一刻一点吧。
1:00:17 B: Quarter to one, that's good, yes. 博姆：差一刻一点，很好，好的。
1:00:38 K: You see, every form of assertion, every form of verbal statement is not that. Right? So we're asking, is there a mind which is not man-made. And I think that can only be asked when the limitations are ended, otherwise it's just a foolish question. 克：你瞧，任何一种断言， 任何一种文字描述都不是那个东西。对吗？ 所以我们问，有没有一颗心不是人造的。 我认为只有当 局限都终止了，才能提出这个问题， 否则那就是一个愚蠢的问题。
1:01:07 B: That'll be the same...

K: Just a waste of time, then. That becomes theoretical, nonsensical. 		博姆：那就还是老一套……

克：那就只是浪费时间。 那会变成理论性的无稽之谈。
1:01:13 B: Part of the man-made structure. 博姆：还是人造结构的一部分。
1:01:16 K: So one must be absolute – – I'm using the word – one must be... 克：所以一个人必须彻底 ——我用了这个词——一个人必须
1:01:23 B: I think the word 'absolute' can be used there if we are very careful. 博姆：我想“彻底”这个词可以用在这儿， 如果我们很小心的话。
1:01:28 K: Very carefully, yes. Absolutely free of all this. Then only can you put that question. When you put that question, when that question is raised, is there a mind not man-made, and if there is such a mind, what is its relationship to the man-made mind? Now, is there such a mind, first? Of course there is. Of course, sir. Without being dogmatic or personal, there is. But it is not God. Because, God – we've been through all that. 克：很小心，是的。 彻底摆脱那一切。 只有那时你才能提出那个问题。 当你提出了那个问题，当那个问题被提出来， 有没有一种心灵不是人为的，如果有这样一颗心， 它跟人造的心灵有什么关系？ 那么，首先，有这样一颗心吗？ 当然是有的。当然，先生。 不是在说教，也没有个人色彩，确实是有的。 但那不是上帝。 因为，上帝——这些我们都讲过了。
1:02:25 B: Yes, it is part of the man-made structure. 博姆：是的，那还是人造结构的一部分。
1:02:27 K: Which has created chaos in the world. There is. Then, the next question is, – if there is such a mind, and someone says there is – what is the relationship of that to the human mind, man-made mind? 克：而且在世界上造成了混乱。 确实存在。然后，下一个问题就是， 如果存在这样一颗心，而且有人说确实存在， 那它跟人类的心灵、 人造的心灵有什么关系？
1:02:49 B: Yes, to the general. 博姆：是的，与总体的心灵。
1:02:52 K: Particular and general. Has it any relationship? 克：个别的和总体的。有任何关系吗？
1:03:00 B: The question's a difficult one because you could say that the man-made mind is pervaded with illusion, most of its content is not real. 博姆：这个问题很难回答，因为你可以说 人造的心灵被幻觉所淹没， 它的大部分内容都是不真实的。
1:03:14 K: No. So this is real – we'll use the word 'real' in the sense actual – and that is measurable, confused. Has this relationship to that? Obviously not. 克：不，这是真实的 ——我们用“真实”这个词指的是“实际的”， 而且是可以衡量的，混乱的。 “这个”跟”那个”有关系吗？显然没有。
1:03:32 B: Well, a superficial one in the sense the man-made mind has some real content at a certain level, a technical level – the television system and so on. So, in that sense, in that area, there could be a relationship, but as you were saying that is a very small area. But fundamentally... 博姆：哦，有一种表面的关系，也就是说，人造的心灵 在某个层面上具有某些真实的内容，在技术层面 ——电视系统，等等。 所以，在那个意义上，在那个领域中， 可能会有一种关系，但是就像你之前说的， 这是一个非常小的领域。而根本层面上
1:03:52 K: No, as we discussed, the man-made mind has no relationship to that. But that has a relationship to this. 克：不，就像我们讨论过的， 人造的心灵跟“那个”没有关系。 但是“那个”跟“这个”有 一种关系。
1:04:02 B: Yes, but not to the illusions in the man-made mind. 博姆：是的，但不是跟人造心灵当中的幻觉有关系。
1:04:08 K: Wait a minute, wait a minute, let's be clear. My mind is the human mind. It has got illusions, desires, etc. And there is other mind which is not... which is beyond all limitation. This illusory mind, the man-made mind, is always seeking that. 克：等一下，等一下，我们来说清楚。 我的心是人类的心灵。它有各种幻觉、欲望，等等。 还有另一种心灵，它不是 它超越了所有局限。 这个虚幻的心灵，这个人造的心灵一直在寻找“那个”。
1:04:42 B: Yes, that's its main trouble.

K: Yes, that's its main trouble. It is measuring it, it is advancing, am I getting nearer, farther, all the rest of it. And this mind, the human mind, the mind that's made by human beings, the man-made mind is always seeking that, and therefore it's creating more and more mischief, confusion. This man-made mind has no relationship to that. 		博姆：是的，这就是最大的麻烦。

克：是的，这就是最大的麻烦。 它在衡量它，它在进步：我是接近一点儿了， 还是远了，诸如此类。 而这颗心，人类的心灵， 人类造就的心灵， 人造的心灵始终在寻求“那个”， 于是造成了越来越多的伤害和混乱。 这个人造的心灵和“那个”没有关系。
1:05:17 B: Yes...

K: Obvious, obvious. 		博姆：是的……

克：显然，显然如此。
1:05:20 B: Any attempt to get that is the source of illusion. 博姆：想要得到“那个”的任何企图都是幻觉的来源。
1:05:24 K: Obvious. Now, has that any relationship to this? 克：显然。那么，“那个”和“这个”有任何关系吗？
1:05:30 B: What I was suggesting was that it would have to have... The illusions in that mind, desire and fear and so on, have no relationship to that, because they are figments anyway. 博姆：我想说的是 必须得有 那颗心里的幻觉、欲望和恐惧，等等， 和“那个”没有关系，因为它们无论如何都是虚构的。
1:05:45 K: Yes, understood. 克：是的，这点清楚了。
1:05:47 B: But that can have a relationship to the man-made mind in understanding its true structure. 博姆：但是“那个”可以和 人造的心灵有关系，就表现在了解它真正的结构上。
1:05:58 K: Are you saying, sir, that that mind has a relationship to the human mind the moment it's moving away from the limitation? 克：你是不是说，先生， 那颗心与人类的心灵是有关系的， 一旦它脱离了局限？
1:06:08 B: Yes, in understanding those limitations it moves away. 博姆：是的，通过了解那些局限，它脱离了出来。
1:06:12 K: Yes. Then that has a relationship. 克：是的。于是就有了关系。
1:06:16 B: Then it has a genuine relationship to what this limited mind actually is, not to the illusions as to what it thinks it is. 博姆：那么它有的就是一种真正的关系， 与这颗局限的心实际是什么有关， 而不是与它认为自己是什么那些幻觉有关。
1:06:27 K: What? Let's be clear. 克：什么？我们来搞清楚。
1:06:29 B: We have to get the words right. The mind which is not limited, which is not man-made, cannot be related to the illusions which are in the man-made mind. But it has to be related to the source, to the real nature of the man-made mind, which is behind the illusion. 博姆：我们得把语言表达准确。 那颗不局限的心， 它不是人造的，它不可能跟 人造心灵中的那些幻觉有关系。 但是它必然跟那个源头有关系， 跟人造心灵的真正本质有关， 那些是藏在幻觉背后的。
1:06:51 K: The man-made mind is based on what? 克：人造的心灵是基于什么的？
1:06:57 B: On all these things we have said. 博姆：基于我们之前说过的所有那些东西的。
1:06:59 K: Yes, which is its nature.

B: Yes. 		克：是的，那是它的本质。

博姆：是的。
1:07:01 K: Therefore how can that have a relationship to this, even basically? 克：所以，“那个”怎么可能跟这个有关系呢， 哪怕是在根本层面上？
1:07:10 B: The only relationship is in understanding it, so that some communication would be possible, which might communicate to the other person. 博姆：唯一的关系就在对它的了解中， 所以某种沟通是可能的， 可以跟另一个人交流。
1:07:22 K: No, I'm questioning that.

B: Yes. Because you were saying that the mind which is not man-made may be related to the limited mind and not the other way around. 		克：不，我质疑这一点。

博姆：好的。 因为你刚才说了 不是人造的那颗心可能跟 局限的心是有关系的，反之则不然。
1:07:35 K: I even question that. 克：我连这个都质疑。
1:07:37 B: All right, you are changing that. Why are you questioning it? 博姆：好吧，你改说法了。你为什么质疑这点？
1:07:41 K: I'm just pushing it a little.

B: It may or may not be so. 		克：我只是在往前推进一点儿。

博姆：可能是也可能不是这样。
1:07:45 K: Yes, I'm questioning it.

B: OK. 		克：是的，我在质疑这点。

博姆：好的。
1:07:50 K: What is the relationship then of love to jealousy? It has none. 克：那么爱跟嫉妒有什么关系？没关系。
1:07:56 B: Not to jealousy itself, no, which is an illusion, but to the human being who is jealous, there may be. 博姆：跟嫉妒本身没关系，没有，那是一个幻觉，但是 跟嫉妒的那个人，可能有关系。
1:08:02 K: I'm taking love and hatred – two words – Love and hatred have no relationship to each other. 克：我就拿“爱”和“恨”这两个词来说。 爱和恨彼此没有关系。
1:08:14 B: No, not really.

K: None! 		博姆：没有，实际上没有。

克：完全没有！
1:08:17 B: Except that love might understand the origin of hatred, you see. 博姆：除了爱可以了解恨的根源，你知道的。
1:08:23 K: Ah... Yes, yes. 克：啊……是的，是的。
1:08:26 B: In that sense I would think of a relationship. 博姆：在那个 意义上，我会认为有一种关系。
1:08:28 K: I see, I understand. You're saying love can understand the origin of hatred, how hatred arises, etc. Does love understand that? 克：我明白，我了解。 你是说爱可以了解 恨的根源，恨是如何产生的，等等。 是爱了解了这些吗？
1:08:46 B: Well, I think in some sense that it understands its origin in the man-made mind, having seen it with all its structure and moved away... 博姆：哦，我觉得从某种意义上讲 是它了解了恨在人造心灵中的根源所在， 看到了它及其整个结构之后脱离了出来
1:09:03 K: Are we saying, sir, that love – we use that word for the moment – that love has relationship to non-love? 克：你是不是说，先生，爱 ——我们暂且用这个词—— 爱与非爱是有关系的？
1:09:18 B: Only in the sense of dissolving it. 博姆：只在消除它这个意义上有关系。
1:09:21 K: I'm not sure, I'm not sure, we must be awfully careful here. Or the ending of itself... 克：我不确定，我不确定， 我们在这里必须格外小心。 还是终结了它自身
1:09:34 B: Which is itself? 博姆：它自身是什么？
1:09:35 K: ...the ending of hatred, the other is, not the other has relationship to the understanding of hatred. 克：……终结了恨，另一个就在了， 而不是另一个跟 对恨的了解有关系。
1:09:50 B: We have to ask how it gets started then. 博姆：那我们就得问问它是怎么开始的。
1:09:54 K: That's very simple. 克：那很简单。
1:09:55 B: No, but suppose we say we have hatred, right? 博姆：不，假设我们说我们有恨，对吗？
1:10:00 K: I have hatred. Suppose I have hatred. I can see the origin of it. Because you insulted me... 克：我有恨。假设我有恨。 我可以看到它的起源。因为你侮辱了我
1:10:07 B: That's a superficial notion of the origin, to say why does one behave so irrationally is the deeper origin. If you merely say you've insulted me, and I say why should you respond to the insult. 博姆：那是对起源很表面的一个看法， 说为什么一个人行事这么不理智 是更深层的根源。 如果你只是说是你侮辱了我， 那我会说你为什么要对那个侮辱产生反应。
1:10:23 K: Because all my conditioning is that. 克：因为我所受的一切制约就是那样的。
1:10:25 B: Yes, that's what I mean by it, then you're understanding the origin of... 博姆：是的，这就是我说的意思， 然后你明白了它的根源
1:10:29 K: I understand that. But does love help me to understand the origin of hatred? 克：那个我明白。 但是爱帮我懂得了恨的根源吗？
1:10:37 B: No, but someone in hatred, understanding this origin and moving away. 博姆：不是，而是恨当中的那个人 懂得了这个根源，然后脱离了出来。
1:10:43 K: Moving away!

B: Yes. 		克：脱离出来！

博姆：是的。
1:10:46 K: Then the other is. The other cannot help the movement away. 克：然后另一个就有了。另一个无法帮助脱离发生。
1:10:51 B: No, but suppose one person, one human being has this love and the other has not can the first one communicate something which will start the movement in the second one? 博姆：没错，但是假设一个人， 一个人有了这种爱，而另一个没有， 那前者能否交流一些事情 然后促成后者开始行动？
1:11:07 K: That means A can influence B. 克：那意味着甲可以影响乙。
1:11:14 B: Not influence but simply to... One could raise the question: why should anybody be talking about any of this, why should I talk about it? 博姆：不是影响，而只是 一个人可以提出这个问题： 为什么有人要谈论这些， 为什么我要谈论这些？
1:11:26 K: That's a different matter! No, the question is, is hate dispelled by love? 克：那是另一件事情了！ 不，问题是， 恨是被爱驱散的吗？
1:11:39 B: No, not that. 博姆：不，不是那样。
1:11:41 K: Or the understanding of hatred and the ending of it, the other is. 克：还是说，了解了恨 然后把它结束，另一个就在了。
1:11:48 B: That's right, but if we say that A has reached that – the other is. Love is for A, and he sees B, C, D... 博姆：没错，但是如果我们说 甲已经做到了，另一个在了。 爱是甲有的，而他看见乙、丙、丁
1:11:59 K: B has got the other... 克：乙有了另一个
1:12:02 B: Now we're saying, what is he going to do... 博姆：现在我们是说 他会做什么
1:12:07 K: What is the relationship between the two? 克：两个人之间的关系是什么？
1:12:09 B: That's the same question. What is he going to do is another way of putting it, right? 博姆：那是同一个问题。 他会做什么只是另一种说法而已，对吗？
1:12:21 K: I think... just a minute, sir. I hate, another loves. My wife loves and I hate. She can talk to me, she can point it out to me, the unreasonable and so on, so on, so on, but her love is not going to transform the source of my hatred. 克：我认为……等一下，先生。 我恨着，另一个人爱着。我妻子爱着，而我恨着。 她可以跟我谈话，她可以跟我指出来 不合理的地方，等等等等， 但是她的爱并不会转变 我恨的根源。
1:12:57 B: That's clear, yes, except the love is the energy which will be behind the talk. 博姆：这个很清楚，是的， 除了爱是谈话背后的 那股能量。
1:13:03 K: Behind the talk. 克：谈话背后。
1:13:05 B: The love itself doesn't sort of go in there and dissolve the hate. 博姆：爱本身 似乎并不能进入那里把恨消除。
1:13:10 K: Of course not, that becomes romantic, etc. So the man who hates, the source of it, the cause of it, the movement of it, having an insight and ending it, has the other. 克：当然不能，那就变成想入非非了，等等。 所以那个恨的人，恨的源头，它的根源， 它的活动，对它有了洞察进而终结了它， 另一个就有了。
1:13:29 B: Yes, if we say A is the man who has seen all this and he, now, has the energy to put it to B – it's up to B what happens. 博姆：是的，如果我们说甲是那个 看到了这一切的人，而他现在有了那股去跟乙谈话的能量， 会发生什么还是取决于乙。
1:13:45 K: I think we'd better pursue this. Quarter to one. 克：我认为我们最好探究一下这个问题。差一刻一点了。