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OJBR80CB12 - 爱的智慧
与大卫▪博姆的第十二次对谈
1980年9月16日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:29 K: This is a dialogue which we have had in Ojai, California. We had there eight dialogues, Dr Bohm and myself, and two here, and one day before yesterday. So may we continue with that dialogue. Should anybody join this or not at all? We’re asking if anybody feels like joining this, unless it is very, very serious, would they join, or if they don’t want to, it’s all right. So it’s a conversation between Dr Bohm and myself. Let’s get on with it. 克：这是一场我们在加州欧亥开启的对话。 我们，博姆博士和我，在那里进行了八次对话， 在这里进行了两次，还有一次是前天进行的。 所以我们可否继续进行这场对话。 有人要加入进来吗，还是完全没有？ 我们在问是否有人愿意加入这场讨论， 除非觉得这件事非常非常严肃， 否则他们愿意加入，还是不愿意加入，都没关系。 所以这是博姆博士和我之间的一场对话。 我们来继续往下进行。
1:49 We were saying the other day, a human being, who has worked his way through all the problems of life, both physical and psychological, and has really grasped the full significance of freedom from psychological memories and conflicts and travails, he comes to a point where the mind finds itself free but hasn’t gathered that supreme energy to go beyond itself. That’s what we were discussing the other day. Can we go on from there? Right, sir?

B: Yes. 		我们前几天说到了， 一个人，他已经穿越并了结了 生活中的所有问题， 包括外在的和心理上的， 并且真正领悟了自由的全部意义 ——从心理记忆、冲突和辛劳中解脱出来的自由—— 他来到了这一步：心发现自己自由了， 但还没有聚集起超越自身所需的那股至高无上的能量。 这就是我们那天讨论的内容。 我们可以从这里继续吗？好吗，先生？

博姆：好的。
3:05 K: Can the mind really – mind, brain, the whole psychological structure – be ever free from all conflict, from all shadow of any disturbance? 克：心——心灵，头脑，整个心理结构——究竟能否 摆脱所有的冲突、 所有烦恼的阴影？
3:27 B: Self-disturbance. 博姆：自我的烦恼。
3:30 K: Self-disturbance. Can it ever be free? Or the idea of complete freedom is an illusion. 克：自我的烦恼。心究竟能否自由？ 还是说，彻底自由的想法只是一个幻觉。
3:41 B: Yes, that’s one possibility. 博姆：是的，那是一种可能性。
3:44 K: One possibility. 克：一种可能性。
3:48 B: Some people may say we could have partial freedom. 博姆：有些人可能会说我们可以拥有局部的自由。
3:51 K: Yes, partial freedom. Or human condition is so determined by the past, by its own conditioning, it can never free itself from it – some of those intellectual philosophers have stated this. 克：是的，局部的自由。或者人类的境况 如此受制于过去，受制于自身的局限， 乃至它永远无法把自己从中解放出来 ——那些智力发达的哲学家当中有一些是这么说的。
4:12 B: Some people feel that’s the case. 博姆：有些人觉得事实就是这样。
4:16 K: And really the deep non-sectarian religious people – there must be some who are totally free from all organised religions and beliefs, rituals, dogmas – they have said it can be done. Very few have said this. 克：而实际上那些深入探索的非派系化的宗教人士 ——必定有一些人是彻底摆脱了 所有组织化的宗教、信仰、仪式和教条的， 他们说过这是可以做到的。有极少数几个这样说过。
4:39 B: Those who have said it is done through reincarnation. And in addition, that group says it will take a very long time. 博姆：那些人说过这件事是通过轮回转世做到的。 此外，那群人还说， 这要花费很长的时间。
4:47 K: Yes, they say it will take a very long time. You must go through various lives and suffer and go through all kinds of miseries, and ultimately, you come to that. But we are not thinking in terms of time. We’re asking, a human being, granting, knowing or aware that he is conditioned, deeply, profoundly, so that his whole being is that, can it ever free itself? And if it does, what is beyond? That’s what we were coming to. 克：是的，他们说这要花费很长时间。 你必须经历累世的生命并且受苦， 历经各式各样的苦难， 然后最终你才能到达那里。 但我们不是从时间的角度来思考的。 我们问，一个人，已经承认、 懂得或者意识到他受到了 深重的局限，从而他的整个存在就是那种局限， 那么它究竟能不能解放自己？ 如果可以，那此外还有什么？ 这就是我们之前谈到的地方。
5:40 Would that question be reasonable or valid, unless the mind has really finished with it, finished all the travail of life? As we said the other day, our minds are man-made. And is there a mind which is not man-made? Right, sir? That’s what we came to. How shall we find this out? We all know the man-made mind, with its consciousness, with all its content and so on. Need we go through that? No. 这个问题是不是合理或者有效， 除非心灵真的已经了结了那些， 结束了生活中所有的辛劳？ 就像我们那天说过的，我们的心是人造的。 那么有没有一颗心不是人造的？ 对吗，先生？这是我们之前说到的。 我们要如何探明这件事？ 我们都知道人造的心灵， 连同它的意识，它所有的内容，等等。 这个需要我们再讲一遍吗？不需要。
6:33 B: We’ve done that already. 博姆：那个我们已经讲过了。
6:35 K: It’s a man-made mind. It is possible that it can free itself from its own man-made mechanical mind. 克：那是一颗人造的心。 它是可能把自己从自身 人造的机械心智中解放出来的。
6:51 B: There is a difficult thing to express there, which is, if this mind is totally man-made, totally conditioned, then in what sense can it get out of it? This is the kind of thing to say, if you said that it had at least a possibility of something beyond... 博姆：这里有一件很难表达清楚的事，那就是， 如果这颗心完全是人造的，完全是局限的， 那么它可以从中脱离出来是从哪种意义上来说的呢？ 这就是会被问到的那种事， 如果你说它至少具有一种超越的可能性
7:14 K: Then it becomes a reward, a temptation, a thing to be... 克：那它就变成了一种奖赏、一种诱惑，一种要去
7:21 B: I think the question is to be able to put this consistently, logically: there seems to be an inconsistency in saying the mind is totally conditioned and yet it’s going to get out. I’m not saying it is inconsistent but it may appear to be inconsistent. 博姆：我认为问题就在于 要能够前后一贯、合乎逻辑地表达这个问题， 似乎这个说法本身就有一种不一致性： 心完全是局限的，但它还是要脱离出来。 我不是说它就是不一致的， 而是说它看起来是前后不一致的。
7:44 K: I understand that question, but if one admits that there is a part which is not conditioned, then we enter into quite another... 克：我明白这个问题，但是 如果我们承认其中有一部分是未被局限的， 那我们就进入了另一个完全不同的
7:56 B: Yes, that’s another inconsistency. 博姆：是的，那是另一种不一致。
8:01 K: Yes, into another inconsistency. In our discussions, we’ve said, the mind, being deeply conditioned, it can free itself through insight – that is the real clue to this. Would you agree to that?

B: Yes. 		克：是的，进入了另一种不一致。 在我们的讨论中，我们说过， 心受到了深重的制约，但是它可以通过洞察 解放自己，而这就是这件事的真正线索。 这点你会同意吗？

博姆：是的。
8:22 K: That insight – we went into what it is, the nature of it – can that insight uncondition the mind completely, wipe away all the illusions, all the desires and so on, can that insight completely wipe it out? Or is it partial? 克：那种洞察——我们探究了它是什么，它的本质是什么—— 那份洞察能否 彻底解除心灵的制约， 抹掉所有的幻觉、所有的欲望，等等， 那份洞察能否彻底将其抹除？还是说那是局部的？
8:58 B: The first point is, if we say mind is not static – if one says it’s totally conditioned it suggests something static, which would never change. Now, if we say the mind is always in movement, then it seems in some way it becomes impossible to say what it is at this moment, and to say it has been totally conditioned. 博姆：第一点是，如果我们说心不是静止的， 如果一个人说它是完全局限的， 那就意味着一种静止的、绝不会改变的东西。 然而，如果我们说心是始终在运动的， 那么在某种意义上似乎就不可能说 它在这一刻是怎样的， 也不能说它是完全局限的。
9:24 K: No, suppose I’m totally conditioned, it’s in movement, but the movement is within a border. 克：不，假设我是完全局限的， 它在运动中，但这种运动是在某个边界之内的。
9:33 B: It’s within a border, yes. 博姆：在某个边界之内，是的。
9:35 K: Within a certain field.

B: Yes. 		克：在某个领域之内。

博姆：是的。
9:37 K: And the field is very definitely marked out, it can expand it and contract, but the boundary is very, very limited, definite. 克：而这个领域被非常明确地划定了出来， 它可以扩展和收缩， 但这个边界是非常非常有限的、确定的。
9:51 B: Yes. And also this whole structure can die away. If we move within that structure, then we stay in some boundary. 博姆：是的。同时 这整个结构也是可以消亡的。 如果我们在那个结构内部活动，那我们就待在了某个边界之内。
10:03 K: Now, it is always moving within that limitation. Can it die away to that? 克：那么，它始终在那个局限之内活动着。 它能停止那种做法吗？
10:12 B: That’s another kind of movement, in another dimension, I think you’ve said.

K: Yes. And we say it is possible through insight, which is also a movement, a totally different kind of movement. 		博姆：那就是另一种运动了， 在另一个维度上，我想你说过了。

克：是的。 我们说那是可能的，通过洞察， 而洞察也是一种运动， 一种完全不同的运动。
10:38 B: Yes, but now we say that movement does not originate in the individual – did we say that?

K: Yes. 		博姆：是的，但是现在我们说那种运动并不是发源于 个体身上的——我们是这么说的吗？

克：是的。
10:46 B: Nor in the general mind. 博姆：也不是总体的心灵中。
10:48 K: It is not – quite right, yes, that’s what we discussed the other day. It is not an insight of the particular, or the general. We are then stating something quite outrageous! 克：不是的——很对，没错， 这是我们那天讨论过的。 它并不是个别的或者总体的心灵的洞察。 那我们说的就是一种让人非常震惊的东西了！
11:06 B: Yes, looking at that, it rather violates most of the sort of logic that people have been using, that either the particular and the general should cover everything, in terms of ordinary logic. Now if you’re saying there’s something beyond both, this is already a question which has not been stated, at least, and I think it has a great importance. 博姆：是的，看看这个说法，它大大地背离了 人们所使用的大部分逻辑， 因为个别的和总体的 应该就能涵盖一切了——在通常的逻辑下。 现在如果你说还有种东西超越了这两个， 那就至少已经是一个 未曾提出过的问题了， 而我认为它具有非常重大的意义。
11:33 K: How do we then state it, or how do we then come to it? 克：那我们要如何表述它，或者那我们要如何触及它呢？
11:41 B: I’ve been noticing that I think people divide themselves roughly into two groups one group feels the most important thing, the ground, is the particular, concrete particular daily activity. The other group feels that the general, the universal is the ground.

K: Quite. 		博姆：我注意到， 我认为人们把自己大致分成了两个群体， 一个群体觉得最重要的事、 基础是个别的， 是具体的特定的日常活动。 另一群人则认为总体的、 普世的才是基础。

克：没错。
12:00 B: One is the more practical type, and the other the more philosophical type. And in general this division has been visible throughout history, also in everyday life, wherever you look. 博姆：一群人是更实际的类型， 另一群人则是更为哲学化的类型。 而总的来说这种划分 可以在整个历史见到，在日常生活中也随处可见。
12:15 K: But, is the general – we can discuss a little bit – separate from the particular? 克：但是那个总体的——我们可以稍微讨论一下—— 跟个别的是分开的吗？
12:22 B: It’s not, most people agree with that but the question is what is it that’s going to be given primary value? People tend to give emphasis to one or the other. Some people give the main emphasis to the particular. They say the general is there but if you take care of the particular the general will be all right.

K: Yes. 		博姆：不是，大多数人会同意这一点，但问题是 哪个应该被赋予更重要的价值呢？ 人们通常会把重点放在这个或者那个上面。 有些人会把主要的重点放在个体上面。 他们说总体就在那里， 但是如果你照顾好了个体， 总体也就没问题了。

克：是的。
12:41 B: The others say the general is the main thing, the universal, and in getting that right you’ll get the particular right.

K: Quite,quite. 		博姆：另一些人说总体的、普世的 才是主要问题，而要让它走上正轨 你就得把个体纳入正轨。

克：没错，没错。
12:50 B: So there’s been a kind of unbalance to one side or the other, a bias in the mind of man. Now what’s being raised here is the notion: neither the general nor the particular. 博姆：所以一直存在一种偏向某一边的 不平衡，人们心中有一种偏重。 而这里提出的是这个概念： 既不是总体的也不是个别的。
13:10 K: That’s right. That’s just it! Can we discuss it, have a conversation about it, logically? Using your expertise, your scientific brain and there is this man who is not all that, so can’t we have a conversation to find out if the general and particular are one, not divided at all. 克：没错，就是这样！ 我们能否讨论一下，对这个问题来一次合乎逻辑的对话？ 运用你的专长、你的科学头脑， 这里还有一个人完全不属于那种类型， 那么我们能否进行一次对话来探明 总体和个体是不是一个， 根本不是分开的。
13:54 B: Also that it has to be no bias to one or the other. 博姆：而且一定不能对这个或者那个有所偏重。
13:57 K: One or the other, quite. Not laying emphasis on one or the other. Then, if we don’t do that, then what is there? I don’t know if I’m... 克：这个或者那个，没错。 不把重点放在这个或者那个上面。 那么，如果我们不那么做，然后还有什么？ 我不知道有没有
14:16 B: Then we have no easy way to talk about it. 博姆：然后我们就没法很容易地谈论它了。
14:20 K: Yes. Yes. 克：是的，是的。
14:24 B: But we did discuss, I think in California, the ground. The question was we could say the particular mind dies to the general universal mind or to the emptiness, then saying that ultimately even the emptiness and the universal die into the ground. 博姆：但是我们确实讨论过那个基础，我想在加州的时候。 当时的问题是我们可以说个别心 消融在那个总体的普世心或者空无之中， 然后说最终连空无 和普世心都融入到基础之中。
14:40 K: That’s right, we discussed that. 克：没错，那个我们讨论过了。
14:42 B: I think that this kind of lead into... 博姆：我认为这好像就导向了
14:45 K: Would an ordinary person, fairly intelligent, agree to all this? See all this?

B: I’m not sure. 		克：一个很聪明的普通人， 会同意这一切，看到这一切吗？

博姆：我不确定。
14:53 K: Or would he say, ‘What nonsense all this is.’ 克：还是他会说，这都是些什么胡说八道。
14:55 B: If it were just thrown at him, he would reject it as nonsense. It would require very careful presentation and some people might see it. But if you just say it to anybody... 博姆：如果这些话被直接丢给他的话，他会当作胡言乱语拒之门外的。 这需要非常细心的阐述， 然后可能有些人会明白。 但是，如果只是随便跟什么人说起的话
15:05 K: Of course. 克：当然。
15:07 B: ...they'd say, whoever heard of that. 博姆：……他们会说，谁听说过这些啊。
15:10 K: So where are we now? Wait. We are neither particular nor the general. That’s a statement which hardly reasonably can be accepted. 克：那我们现在到了哪里？等一下。 我们既不是个体也不是总体。 这个说法几乎不可能被理性地接受。
15:28 B: Well, it’s reasonable in the sense that if you take thought to be a movement, rather than a content... 博姆：哦，它在这个意义上是合理的： 如果你把思想当作一种运动， 而不是一个内容
15:41 K: Thought to be a movement – quite, we agree to that. 克：思想是一种运动，没错，这点我们同意。
15:44 B: ...then thought is the movement between the particular and the general. 博姆：……那么思想就是 个体和总体之间的运动。
15:48 K: But thought is the general, thought is the particular. 克：但是思想就是总体，思想也是个体。
15:51 B: But thought is also the movement.

K: Yes. 		博姆：但是思想也是运动。

克：是的。
15:54 B: So in the movement it goes beyond being one or the other, that is, in movement. 博姆：所以在运动中它超越了不再只作为其中之一， 也就是，在运动中。
16:01 K: Does it? 克：是吗？
16:03 B: Well, it can, I said that ordinarily it does not, because ordinarily thought is caught on one side or the other. 博姆：哦，它可以，但是我说过通常它没有， 因为通常思想被困在了这一边或者那一边。
16:08 K: That’s the whole point, isn’t it? Ordinarily the general and the particular are in the same area. 克：这就是整个重点所在了，不是吗？ 通常总体和个体 就在同一个领域之内。
16:15 B: Yes, and either you fix on one or the other. 博姆：是的，而你就固着在这个或者那个上面。
16:18 K: Yes, but in the same area, in the same field. And thought is the movement between the two. Or thought has created both. 克：是的，但在同一个范围内，同一个领域内。 而思想就是两者之间的运动。 或者是思想造就了它们两个。
16:32 B: Yes, it has created both and moves between. 博姆：是的，思想造就了两者并且在它们之间运动。
16:34 K: Between and around it. 克：之间以及围绕。
16:36 B: Around and in that area. 博姆：围绕并且在那个范围之内。
16:38 K: Yes, in that area. And it has been doing this for millennia. 克：是的，在那个范围内。 而它已经这么做了数千年。
16:48 B: And most people would feel that’s all it could do. 博姆：大多数人会认为它只能这么做。
16:52 K: Now, we are saying, when thought ends, that movement which thought has created also comes to an end, therefore time comes to an end. 克：现在，我们说， 当思想终止， 思想制造的那种运动也就终止了， 因而时间也就终止了。
17:09 B: We should go more slowly here...

K: Sorry. 		博姆：在这里我们应该慢一些……

克：抱歉。
17:11 B: ...it’s a jump from thought to time, we’ve gone into it before but it’s still a jump. 博姆：……从思想到时间是一个很大的跨越， 我们之前探讨过这个问题，但这依然是一个跨越。
17:18 K: Right. Because first, let’s see. Thought has created the general and the particular, and thought is a movement that connects the two, thought moves round it, so it is still in the same area. 克：好的。因为首先，我们来看一看。 思想制造了总体和个体， 思想又是连结两者的运动， 思想围绕它们运动，所以依然在同一个范围内。
17:38 B: Yes, and doing that it has created time, which is part of the general and the particular, time is a particular time and also a general time. All time, for ever. That sees this particular time in the whole of time. 博姆：是的，而通过那么做它就制造了时间， 那也是总体和个体的一部分， 时间既是个体的时间也是总体的时间。 所有时间，永远都是。 在时间的总体中就可以见到这种个体的时间。
17:54 K: But, you see, thought is time! 克：但是，你瞧，思想就是时间！
17:57 B: That’s another question, we were discussing that thought has a content which is 'about' time, and besides that, we say that thought is a movement which 'is' time, it could be said to be moving from the past into the future. Right? 博姆：那是另一个问题了，我们讨论过 思想有一个内容是“关于”时间的， 此外，我们说思想是一种本身“就是”时间的运动， 可以说它是从 过去走向未来的。对吗？
18:15 K: But, sir, thought is based on time, thought is the outcome of time. 克：但是，先生，思想是基于时间的， 思想是时间的产物。
18:22 B: Yes, but then does that mean that time exists beyond thought? If you say thought is based on time, then time is more fundamental than thought is that what you want to say?

K: Yes, yes. 		博姆：是的，但那是不是就意味着 时间是存在于思想之外的？ 如果你说思想是基于时间的， 那么时间就比思想要更为根本 ——你是这意思吗？

克：是的，是的。
18:33 B: So we should go into that. You could say that time is something which was there before thought, or at least it’s at the origin of thought? 博姆：所以这点我们应该探讨一下。 你可以说时间是某种 在思想之前就存在的东西， 或者至少它在思想的起源之处？
18:45 K: Time was there when there is the accumulation of knowledge. 克：当有了知识的积累时，时间就在了。
18:53 B: That has come out of thought to some extent. 博姆：在某种程度上，那是来自于思想的。
18:58 K: No, I act and learn.

B: Yes. 		克：不，我行动然后学习。

博姆：是的。
19:01 K: That action is based, not on previous knowledge, but I do something, and in the doing I learn. 克：那个行动不是基于之前的知识的， 而是我做了一件事然后在做的过程中学习。
19:16 B: That learning is registered in the memory. 博姆：那种学习被记录在了回忆里。
19:19 K: In the memory, and so on. So is not thought essentially the movement of time? 克：在回忆里，等等。 所以，思想本质上不就是时间的运动吗？
19:30 B: In what sense is this learning the movement of time? You can say, when we learn it is registered. Right? And then that same learning operates in the next experience, what you have learned. 博姆：在哪种意义上说这种学习就是时间的运动？ 你可以说，我们学习的时候，就进行了记录，对吗？ 然后那同样的学习在下一次经验中发挥了作用 ——你学到的东西。
19:50 K: Yes. The past is always moving to the present, all the time. 克：是的。过去一直在走向未来，始终如此。
19:55 B: Yes, and mixing, fusing with the present.

K: Yes. 		博姆：是的，与此刻混合、融合在一起。

克：是的。
19:57 B: And the two together are again registered as the next experience. 博姆：然后这两者又被一起记录下来， 作为下一个经验。
20:02 K: So are we saying, time is different from thought, or time is thought. 克：所以我们说，时间是有别于思想的吗， 还是时间就是思想。
20:12 B: This movement of learning and the response of memory into experience and then re-registering, we say that is time, and that is also thought. Isn't? 博姆：这种学习的运动和记忆参与经验的反应 然后再记录，我们说那是时间， 同时那也是思想。不是吗？
20:25 K: Yes, that is thought. 克：是的，那是思想。
20:30 Is there a time apart from thought? 有没有一种时间是脱离于思想的？
20:34 B: Would we say that, physically or in the cosmos, time has a significance apart from thought? 博姆：我们是不是可以说，从物理角度或者在宇宙中， 时间有一种意义是脱离于思想的？
20:42 K: Physically, yes, I understand that. 克：物理上，是的，这点我明白。
20:45 B: Right. So then we’re saying, in the mind, or psychologically. 博姆：好的。然后我们说，在内心或者心理上
20:49 K: Psychologically, as long as there is psychological accumulation – as knowledge, as the ‘me’, there is time. It is based on time! 克：心理上， 只要存在心理上的积累， 比如知识，比如我，就存在时间。 它就是基于时间的！
21:03 B: Wherever there is accumulation there is time. 博姆：只要有积累，就有时间。
21:06 K: Yes, that’s the point. Wherever there is accumulation there is time. 克：是的，就是这个意思。 只要有积累，就会有时间。
21:10 B: Usually you say time is first and in time you accumulate. 博姆：通常你会说时间在先，然后你在时间中积累。
21:15 K: No, I would put it round the other way, personally. 克：不，我个人会反过来说。
21:18 B: It’s important to see that it’s put the other way. Suppose there is no accumulation, then what? 博姆：重要的是明白为什么要反过来说。 假设没有积累，那会怎样？
21:25 K: Then – that’s the whole point – there is no time! And as long as I am accumulating, gathering, becoming, there is the process of time. But if there is no gathering, no becoming, no accumulation, where does psychological time exist? 克：那就是全部的 重点了——那就没有时间了！ 而只要我在积累、收集、成为， 就会有时间过程。 但是，如果没有收集，没有成为，没有积累， 心理时间哪里还会存在呢？
21:53 B: Probably you could say even physical time must depend on some kind of physical accumulation. That we are not denying. We’re denying the significance of psychological accumulation. 博姆：也许你可以说即便是物理时间 也必须依赖于某种物理上的积累。 那个我们并不否定。 我们否定的是 心理积累的意义。
22:06 K: That’s right. So thought is the outcome of psychological accumulation, and that accumulation, that gathering, gives it a sense of continuity – which is time. 克：没错。所以思想 就是心理积累的产物， 而那种积累，那种收集， 就带来了一种延续感，也就是时间。
22:25 B: Well, it seems it’s in movement, that whatever has been accumulated is responding to the present, with the projection of the future. And then that is again registered. Now, the accumulation of all that’s registered is in the order of time: one time, the next time... 博姆：嗯，似乎感觉是处于运动中的， 无论积累了什么， 都在对此刻作出反应， 同时带着对未来的投射。 然后那些又被记录了下来。 那么，对记录下来的一切的积累 就是处在时间的序列中的：一次，下一次
22:43 K: So we’re saying, thought is time! 克：所以我们说，思想就是时间！
22:47 B: Or time is thought.

K: Oh, yes, one way or the other. 		博姆：或者时间就是思想。

克：噢，是的，哪种都行。
22:51 B: But the movement of time is thought. 博姆：但时间的运动是思想。
22:54 K: Movement of time...

B: Psychological time. 		克：时间的运动……

博姆：心理时间。
22:59 K: Movement... what are you saying, sir? 克：运动……你说的是什么，先生？
23:02 B: The movement of psychological time, which is that accumulation. 博姆：心理时间的运动，也就是那种积累。
23:06 K: Is time.

B: That’s time but that’s also thought. the two mean the same thing. 		克：就是时间。

博姆：那就是时间，但那也是思想 ——这两个说的是一回事。
23:14 K: So, psychological accumulation is thought and time. 克：所以，心理上的积累就是思想和时间。
23:20 B: Yes, we have two words when really we only need one. Because we have two words we look for two things. 博姆：是的，我们有两个词，但实际上我们只需要一个。 因为我们有两个词，所以我们就去找两个东西。
23:29 K: Yes. There is only one movement, which is time and thought, time plus thought, time/thought. Now can the mind, which has moved for millennia in that area all the time, free itself from that? 克：是的。只有一种运动， 也就是时间和思想，时间加上思想，时间/思想。 那么心，在那个领域中一直活动了几千年，能否 把自己从中解放出来？
23:50 B: Why is it bound up? Let’s see exactly what’s holding the mind. 博姆：它为什么会受到束缚？我们来看看究竟是什么制约着心灵。
23:54 K: Accumulation. 克：积累。
23:56 B: Yes, but why does the mind continue to accumulate? 博姆：是的，但是心为什么一直在积累呢？
24:02 K: I think that is fairly clear, because in accumulation there is safety, there is security – apparent security. 克：我认为这很清楚，因为 积累中存在安全， 存在保障——显而易见的安全感。
24:11 B: That needs a little discussion. In a certain area that is even true, the accumulation of physical food may provide a certain kind of security. 博姆：这需要一点探讨。 在某些领域中这甚至是正确的，积累身体所需的食物 可以带来一定的安全。
24:21 K: Of course. 克：当然。
24:22 B: And then since no distinction was made between the outer and the inner, there was the feeling that one could accumulate inwardly either experiences or some knowledge of what to do... 博姆：然后由于没有区分 外在和内在，就有了这种感觉， 认为我们也可以从内心积累经验 或者某些该做什么的知识
24:35 K: Are we saying the outward necessity of physical accumulation for security is necessary? And that same movement, same idea, same urge moves into the field of psychological thought. There you accumulate hoping to be secure. 克：我们是不是说外在为了安全 进行物质上的积累是必要的？ 然后同样的活动、同样的想法、同样的冲动 进入到了心理上的思想领域。 在那里你也积累，以期得到安全。
24:54 B: Yes, inwardly hoping you can accumulate present memories, or relationships, things you could count on, principles you could count on. 博姆：是的，内心希望你可以积累 现在的记忆或者关系， 积累你可以依靠的东西，你可以依靠的原则。
25:07 K: So accumulation, psychological accumulation is safety, protection, security. 克：所以积累，心理上的积累 就是安全感、保护、保障。
25:17 B: The illusion, anyway. 博姆：不管怎样，都是幻觉。
25:19 K: The illusion of security and in this illusion it has lived. 克：虚幻的安全感，心就活在这种幻觉当中。
25:28 B: So it does seem that the first mistake was that man never understood the distinction between what he has to do outside and what he has to do inside, right? 博姆：所以确实看起来人犯下的第一个错误就是 人类从来不懂得区分 外在必须做的事和内心必须做的事，对吗？
25:37 K: Yes, we said that. It is the same movement, outer and inner. 克：是的，这个我们说过了。 外在和内在是同一个运动。
25:42 B: But man carried the movement, that procedure which was right outwardly he carried inwardly, without knowing, perhaps entirely not-knowing that that would make trouble. 博姆：但是人类把从外在看正确的 活动和过程搬到了内心， 却不知情，可能完全不知道 那会带来麻烦。
25:53 K: So where are we now? A human being realises all this. He has come to the point when he says, ‘Can I really be free from this accumulated security and thought and time?' Psychological time, right? Is that possible? 克：那我们现在到了哪里？ 一个人认识到了这一切。 他已经来到了这一步，这时他说， “我究竟能不能从积累的这种安全感、 从思想和时间当中解脱出来？”心理时间，对吗？ 那可能吗？
26:21 B: If we say that it had this origin, then it should be possible to dismantle it, if it were built into us, nothing could be done. 博姆：如果我们说它有这样的起源， 那么就应该有可能解除它， 如果它是我们内在固有的，那就无能为力了。
26:29 K: It is not certainly built into us! 克：它当然不是我们内在固有的！
26:32 B: Most people act as though they believe it were.

K: That’s absurd! 		博姆：大多数人表现得好像他们相信那是内在固有的。

克：那太荒唐了！
26:35 B: If it’s not built into us, then the possibility exists for us to change. Because in some way we said it was built up in the first place through time. 博姆：如果它不是我们内在固有的， 那么我们就有可能改变。 因为以某种方式我们说过它是通过时间 早就构建起来的。
26:50 K: If we say it is built in, then we are in a hopeless state. 克：如果我们说它是内在固有的， 那我们就处于无望的境地了。
26:58 B: That’s one of the difficulties of people who use evolution, by bringing in evolution they hope to get out of this static boundary. They don’t realise that evolution is the same thing, it’s even worse,it’s the very means by which the trap was made. 博姆：这就是那些想利用进化的人面临的困难之一， 通过引入进化， 他们希望能够脱离这个凝滞的边界。 他们没有意识到进化是同一回事， 甚至还要更糟，它恰恰是布下陷阱的做法。
27:21 K: So I come to that point, as a human being, I realise all this, I’m fully aware of the nature of this. And my next question is: can this mind move on from this field altogether, and enter, perhaps, into a totally different dimension? And we said... It can only happen when there is insight – that we’ve been through. 克：所以我来到了这一步，作为一个人， 我认识到了这一切， 我充分意识到了这一切的本质。 那么我的下一个问题就是： 这颗心能否彻底从这个领域离开， 进入一个可能截然不同的维度？ 而我们说过 它只能发生在洞察出现之时 ——这个我们探讨过了。
28:08 B: Yes, and it seems that insight arises when one questions this whole thing very deeply. One sees it doesn’t make sense. 博姆：是的，似乎洞察发生于 一个人非常深刻地质疑这整件事情的时候。 一个人看到了那一切是毫无意义的。
28:20 K: Now having had insight into it and seen its limitation and therefore go beyond it – what is there beyond? This we talked about a little bit, not only at Ojai, also here. 克：既然有了对它的洞察， 也看到了它的局限进而超越了它， 那此外还有什么呢？ 这个问题我们之前探讨过一点， 不仅在欧亥，还有在这里。
28:59 B: We felt that it’s very difficult to even bring this into words, but I think we said something has to be done on this line, right? 博姆：甚至把这个问题诉诸语言我都觉得很难， 但我想我们说过在这方面必须得做点儿什么，对吗？
29:09 K: I think it has to be put into words. 克：我认为它必须被诉诸语言。
29:12 B: Could you say why because many people might feel we should leave this entirely non-verbal. 博姆：你可以说说为什么吗？因为很多人会觉得 我们应该把这个问题完全留在非语言的状态。
29:26 K: Can we say, the word is not the thing, whatever description is not the real, is not the truth, however much you embellish or diminish it, just the word is not that. Recognising that, then what is there beyond all this? Can my mind be so... desireless so it won’t create an illusion, something beyond? 克：我们能否说，词语并非事物本身， 无论如何描述都不是那真实本身， 都不是真理，无论你如何渲染或者贬低它， 文字都不是那个东西本身。 认识到了这一点，那么超越这一切的是什么呢？ 我的心能否如此……无欲无求 以致于它不会制造关于那个超越之物的任何幻觉？
30:03 B: Then, in that question of desire, desire must be in this time process. 博姆：那么，在那个欲望的问题中， 欲望必定是处在这个时间过程当中的。
30:08 K: Of course, desire is time. 克：当然，欲望就是时间。
30:11 B: Since there are very subtle forms of desire, as well as the obvious forms... 博姆：由于欲望存在着各种非常微妙的形式， 还有那些显而易见的形式
30:19 K: After all, being, becoming is based on desire. 克：归根结底，成为、变成就是基于欲望的。
30:26 B: They are one and the same, really. 博姆：它们是一个，实际上是一回事。
30:28 K: Yes, they’re one and the same. Now, when one has an insight – I hate to use that word over and over again – into that whole movement of desire, and its capacity to create illusion, it’s finished! 克：是的，它们无二无别。 那么，当一个人洞察了 ——我讨厌一次又一次地用到这个词—— 欲望的整个活动， 以及它制造幻觉的能力，它就结束了！
30:51 B: Yes, I think perhaps we should, since this is a very crucial point, we should try to say a little more about desire, how it’s intrinsic in this accumulating process, how it comes out in many ways. For one thing you could say that, as you accumulate, there comes a sense of something missing. You feel you should have more, something to finish, to complete. Whatever you accumulated is not complete. 博姆：是的，我认为也许我们应该， 由于这是个非常关键的点，我们应该尽量 关于欲望多说一点， 它怎么就是这个积累过程中所固有的， 它是如何以各种方式出现的。 一方面你可以说，当你积累时， 会出现一种缺失感。 你觉得你应该拥有更多， 有什么事情要了结、要完成。 无论你积累了什么都不是完备的。
31:28 K: Sir, could we go into the question of becoming first, then desire comes into it. 克：先生，我们能否先来探究一下成为的问题， 然后欲望就会出现在其中。
31:34 Why is it that all human beings, right through the world, have this urge to become? Outwardly I understand that, simple enough. 为什么全世界所有的人类 都有这种成为什么的渴望？ 这点从外在我可以理解，那很简单。
31:46 B: We have to become stronger and stronger. 博姆：我们必须变得越来越强。
31:48 K: Physically develop your muscle... 克：身体上锻炼你的肌肉
31:51 B: Your language, your logic... 博姆：你的语言，你的逻辑
31:53 K: And also a better job, more comfort and so on. But why is there this seed in the human mind of trying to become... enlightened – let’s use that word for the moment – trying to become more good... or better. 克：还有一份更好的工作，更多的舒适，等等。 但是为什么人心中会有这种需要， 努力想要开悟 ——我们暂且用这个词—— 想要变得更善良或者更好。
32:22 B: There must be a sense of dissatisfaction with what’s in there already, that’s one thing. 博姆：必定有一种不满足感， 对已有的不满足，这是一方面。
32:27 K: Is it dissatisfaction? 克：是因为不满足吗？
32:29 B: A person feels he would like it to be complete. Suppose he has accumulated memories of pleasure, but these memories are no longer adequate, he feels something more is needed. 博姆：一个人觉得他希望事情是完满的。 假设他积累了快乐的记忆， 但是这些记忆已经不够用了， 他觉得需要更多的东西。
32:44 K: Is that it? 克：是因为这个吗？
32:46 B: To get more, that’s one of the questions, and eventually he feels that he must have the whole, the ultimate. 博姆：要得到更多，这就是问题之一， 最终他觉得必须得到全部，得到终极的东西。
32:59 K: I’m not at all sure whether the word ‘more’ is not the real thorn. 克：我完全不确定“更多”这个词是不是 真正的症结所在。
33:06 B: The word ‘more’?

K: Yes, more. More, I will be more, I will have more, I will become – this whole movement of moving forward, gaining, comparing, advancing, achieving – psychologically. 		博姆：“更多”这个词？

克：是的，“更多”。 更多，我要更如何，我要拥有更多， 我要变得——这整个运动： 向前走、获得、 比较、进步、达成，从心理上。
33:27 B: The word ‘more’ is just implicit in the whole meaning of the word ‘accumulate’. If you’re accumulating you have to be accumulating more, there’s no other way to do it. 博姆：“更多”这个词就隐含在了 “积累”这个词整个的含义中。 如果你在积累，你就必定会积累得更多， 没有别的办法。
33:38 K: So why is there this seed in the human mind? 克：那么为什么人心中会有这粒种子呢？
33:42 B: He doesn’t see that this 'more' is wrong, inwardly. If he started outwardly to use the term ‘more' but then he carried it inward, he didn’t see how destructive it was. 博姆：他没有看到这种“更多”在内心领域是错误的。 如果他是从外在使用“更多”这个词开始的， 然后却把它搬到了内心， 他没有发现这么做多么有破坏性。
33:58 K: Why? Why? Why ? Why fairly intelligent philosophers and religious people who have spent a great part of their great life in achieving, why haven’t they seen this very simple thing! The great intellectuals and the so-called... evolutionary concept, why haven’t they seen this simple fact that where there is accumulation there must be more. 克：为什么？为什么？为什么？ 为什么那些相当睿智的哲学家和宗教人士们 花了他们毕生的大部分时间用来达成什么， 为什么他们就看不到这件非常简单的事！ 那些大知识分子和所谓的 进化论式的概念，他们为什么看不到 这个简单的事实：只要有积累， 就必然会有“更多”。
34:33 B: They’ve seen that but they don’t see any harm in it. 博姆：他们看到了这点，但是没有发现里面有任何危害。
34:35 K: No, I’m not sure they see it. 克：不，我不确定他们看到了。
34:37 B: They’ve seen they are trying to get more, they are trying to get a better life. The nineteenth century was the century of progress, improving all the time. 博姆：他们看到了他们在努力获取更多， 他们努力得到更好的生活。 19世纪是进步的世纪， 一直在改进。
34:48 K: All right, but progress outwardly. 克：好的，但那是外在的进步。
34:50 B: But they felt that man would be improving himself inwardly. 博姆：但是他们觉得人类从内心也在改善自己。
34:56 K: But why haven’t they ever questioned this? 克：但是为什么他们从没有质疑过这一点呢？
34:59 B: What would make them question it? 博姆：什么会让他们质疑这一点呢？
35:05 K: Obviously, this constant struggle. For the more. 克：显然，是这种不停的奋力以求，为了获取更多。
35:11 B: But they thought that was necessary for progress. 博姆：但是他们认为那是进步所必需的。
35:15 K: But is that progress? 克：可那是进步吗？
35:17 B: Can we make it clear, suppose you had to answer one of the nineteenth century optimists that man is progressing all the time, to be better inwardly as well as outwardly. 博姆：我们能不能把它说清楚，假设你必须回答 一个19世纪的乐观主义者，他认为 人类一直在进步， 不止外在，内心也在进步。
35:28 K: Let us admit outwardly.

B: He could do that. 		克：外在我们是承认的。

博姆：外在他可以那么做。
35:34 K: Outwardly. That same outward urge to be 'better' has it moved into the psychological realm? 克：外在。跟外在想变得“更好”同样的冲动 是不是进入到了心理领域？
35:44 B: Can we make it clear why it does harm in the psychological realm? 博姆：我们能不能说清楚 为什么在心理领域就会造成伤害？
35:50 K: The harm is – wait a minute, let’s think it out. What's the harm in accumulating, psychologically? Oh yes! It divides. 克：伤害就是——等一下，我们来把它想清楚。 心理上积累的害处是什么？噢，是的！ 它会造成分裂。
36:09 B: What does it divide? 博姆：它分裂了什么？
36:11 K: The very nature of accumulation brings about a division between you and me and they. 克：积累从本质上 就会造成你和我和他们之间的分裂。
36:21 B: Could we make that clear, it is a crucial point. I can see one thing: suppose you are accumulating in your way and I accumulate in my way... 博姆：我们能否把这点说清楚，这是个关键点。 我可以看到一件事：假设 你用你的方式积累，而我用我的方式积累
36:29 K: And he, she, accumulates in another way. 克：而他，她，用另外的方式积累。
36:33 B: And then we try to impose a common way of accumulating and that’s more conflict. 博姆：然后我们就试图强加一种共同的积累方式， 而那是更多的冲突。
36:37 K: Which is impossible! That never takes place. 克：那是不可能的！那永远不会发生。
36:40 B: They say everybody should be more...

K: Yes, yes, yes. I have accumulated, psychologically, as a Hindu. And another has accumulated as a Muslim. 		博姆：他们说每个人都应该变得更加……

克：是的，是的，是的。 我心理上进行了积累，作为一个印度教徒。 而另一个人作为一个穆斯林也积累了。
36:57 B: There are thousands of divisions. 博姆：存在成千上万种划分。
36:59 K: Thousands of divisions. 克：成千上万种划分。
37:00 B: You could say in one profession or in another. 博姆：你可以说在各种职业中也是一样。
37:02 K: Thousands of divisions! Therefore accumulation, in its very nature, divides people. And therefore conflict. 克：成千上万种划分！ 因此积累，它从本质上就会分裂人类。 进而就有了冲突。
37:15 B: Each person accumulates in his particular way which is different from somebody else. You cannot make a common way of accumulating. 博姆：每个人都用自己特定的方式积累， 有别于他人的方式。 你不可能建立一种共同的积累方式。
37:23 K: Can’t we? So let’s all accumulate! 克：我们不能吗？我们都来积累吧！
37:25 B: It doesn’t work, because everybody already has a different... 博姆：那不管用，因为每个人都已经有了一种不同的
37:29 K: Of course. 克：当然。
37:31 B: ...relationship, no matter what you do. 博姆：……关系，无论你做什么。
37:34 K: So, can we say then: in accumulation man has sought psychological security, and that security, with its accumulation, is the factor of human division. Psychologically. 克：所以，接下来我们能不能说： 人类一直通过积累来寻求心理上的安全感， 而那种安全感连同它的积累 就是人类分裂的因素——心理上。
37:52 B: Yes, any attempt to accumulate will divide. At present, some sociologists like Carl Marx has said that it was this accumulation of capital by some people which divided them from other people – that started tremendous conflict. 博姆：是的，任何积累的企图都会造成分裂。 当今，某些社会学家比如卡尔·马克思 说过正是某些人进行的这种资本积累 将他们与其他人分裂了开来， 于是引发了巨大的冲突。
38:13 K: So, we said that's why human beings have accumulated, not realising its consequences. And realising that, is it possible not to accumulate? I mean, that’s tremendous! 克：所以，我们说过那就是为什么人类一直在积累的原因， 因为没有意识到它的后果。 那意识到这一点之后，有没有可能不积累呢？ 我是说，那是非常了不起的！
38:38 B: Yes, the human mind automatically accumulates. 博姆：是的，人心在自动地积累。
38:43 K: Why? For the very clear and simple reason, in accumulation, as outwardly, it feels safe, secure. 克：为什么呢？因为这个非常简单明了的原因， 在积累中，就像外在一样，它觉得安全、牢靠。
38:57 B: Perhaps you could say that having gotten into this trap it was very hard for the mind to get out, it was already occupied, the mind is filled with this process of accumulation, it becomes very hard to see anything. 博姆：也许你可以说已经掉进了这个陷阱， 心就很难从中脱离出来了，它已经被占据了， 心里装满了这个积累过程， 很难看清任何事情了。
39:11 K: Suppose my mind is filled with this process of occupation which is psychological knowledge, all that, can it end? Of course it can! 克：假设我的心充满了这个占据过程， 也就是心理知识，那一切——它能终止吗？ 当然可以！
39:24 B: If the mind will get to the root of it. 博姆：如果心能够直抵其根本的话。
39:27 K: Of course it can! Which is: that it is an illusion that in accumulation there is security. 克：它当然可以！ 那就是：这是一个幻觉： 在积累中存在安全。
39:37 B: One can see this at a certain level, one discusses this, not intellectually, I would prefer to say as a map, one has drawn a map of this whole process. Then the question is, when you have a map you must now be able to look at the country. See what’s on the map. 博姆：一个人可以从一定层面上看到这一点， 一个人讨论了这个问题，不是从智力上， 我更愿意说就像一幅地图， 一个人画了一幅这整个过程的地图。 然后问题就在于，当你有了一幅地图， 你现在就必须能够去看这个国家， 看看地图上有什么。
39:58 K: Yes. When you are looking at the map you don’t see the country. 克：是的。当你看着这幅地图， 你并没有看到这个国家。
40:02 B: No, the map may be useful but it’s not enough. But now we are saying, that desire is what keeps people going on with it. 博姆：没有，地图可能是有用的，但是还不够。 但是现在我们说的是， 欲望是让人们延续老做法的原因。
40:16 K: Not only desire but this deep-rooted instinct to accumulate. 克：不只是欲望，还有这种根深蒂固的积累本能。
40:23 B: Like the squirrel.

K: Like the squirrel. For future, for safety. That and desire go together. Right? 		博姆：就像松鼠一样。

克：就像松鼠一样。为了将来，为了安全。 它和欲望是一起的，对吗？
40:38 B: It builds up into intense desire. 博姆：这就构成了强烈的欲望。
40:42 K: So desire plus accumulation is the factor of division, conflict, etc. 克：所以欲望加上积累 就是分裂、冲突等等的因素。
40:53 B: You can say really the word desire means need, a person feels he must accumulate because he needs. 博姆：你可以说实际上“欲望”一词意味着“需要”， 一个人觉得他必须积累，是因为他需要。
41:01 K: He needs, yes. Now, I’m asking, can that end? If it ends through an action of will, it's still the same thing. 克：他需要，是的。那么，我要问，那能终止吗？ 如果它是通过意志力的行为终止的，那就还是老一套。
41:14 B: That’s part of desire. 博姆：那是欲望的一部分。
41:17 K: If it ends because of punishment or reward, it’s still the same. So one’s mind sees this and puts all that aside. Right? But is the mind... free of accumulation? Yes sir, I think it can, he does. That is, have no psychological knowledge at all. Knowledge is accumulation. 克：如果它终止是因为奖惩，那就还是老一套。 所以一个人的心看到了这些，然后把这一切都搁在了一边。对吗？ 但是心能否 摆脱积累？ 是的，先生，我认为它可以，他确实可以。 也就是说，根本没有心理上的知识。 知识就是积累。
42:10 B: We have to consider that knowledge goes very much further than is ordinarily meant. Not just...

K: Book knowledge, experience – of course! 		博姆：我们必须考虑到 知识的内涵远远大过 它通常的含义。 不只是……

克：书本知识，还有经验——当然！
42:23 B: But, in accumulating... For example, having knowledge of this microphone, you build up an image of it, and everything goes into that, and one expects it to continue. If you have knowledge of yourself, it builds up a picture of yourself. 博姆：但是，在积累中……例如说， 有了对这个麦克风的知识，你建立了它的一个形象， 然后一切都会添加到其中，你也期待它会持续存在。 如果你有了关于自己的知识，它就建立起了你自己的一幅肖像。
42:46 K: Ah! Can one have knowledge of oneself? 克：啊！一个人可以抱有关于自己的知识吗？
42:48 B: No, If you think you have, if one thinks that there is knowledge about what sort of person you are, that builds up into a picture, with the expectations... 博姆：不能，如果你觉得你有， 如果一个人觉得有 关于你是哪种人的知识， 那就会塑造出一幅肖像，带着各种期待
42:59 K: But after all, if you have knowledge of yourself, you have built an image already! 克：可是归根到底，如果你抱有关于自己的知识， 你就已经建立了一个意象！
43:05 B: That’s the same, the tendency is, there’s a transfer of what you do with the outside, as you observe this microphone you build up knowledge, that enters into your picture, your perception of it, then you say I'll do the same with myself. I know the sort of person I should be or I am and it builds up, a lot of accumulation builds up in forms that we don’t ordinarily call knowledge, for example, preferences, likes and dislikes. 博姆：那是一回事，倾向就在于 要把你外在做的事情进行转换， 就像你观察这个麦克风，你建立起知识， 知识就进入到了你关于它的画面、对它的感知中， 然后你说，“对我自己也要做同样的事， 我知道我应该是或者我就是哪种人”， 而这就建立起了，很多积累就建立起了 一些我们通常不会叫做“知识”的形式， 例如：偏好、喜欢和不喜欢。
43:38 K: But once you realise psychological accumulation as knowledge is an illusion, and destructive, and causes infinite pain and misery, when you see, it’s finished! 克：但是一旦你认识到心理上的积累 也就是知识，是一个幻觉，是破坏性的， 会导致无穷无尽的痛苦和悲伤， 当你看到了这一点，它就结束了！
43:58 B: I'm trying to say, very often the word knowledge does not convey all that has to be included. I could say, OK, I know certain things in knowledge and it’s foolish to build up that knowledge about myself, but then there may be other kinds of knowledge which I don’t recognise as knowledge... 博姆：我想说的是，通常“知识”这个词 并不包含它必须包含的所有那些意义。 我可以说，“好的，我知道知识中有某些东西， 也知道建立起关于自己的知识是愚蠢的， 但也许还有另一些种类的知识 我没有认出来它是知识……”
44:23 K: What other kinds of knowledge that one has? Preferences, like and dislike, prejudice.

B: Habits. 		克：人还有什么其他种类的知识？ 偏好，喜欢和不喜欢， 偏见。

博姆：习惯。
44:33 K: Habit. All that is in the image that one has created. 克：习惯。那一切都在一个人建立的意象之中。
44:45 B: Yes. Man has developed in such a way that that image seems extraordinarily real. And therefore its qualities don’t seem to be knowledge. 博姆：是的。人建立意象的这种方式 就是让意象显得格外真实。 所以它的那些特性看起来不像是知识。
45:00 K: All right, sir. So we have said, accumulation is time accumulation is security, and where there is psychological accumulation there must be division, thought is the movement between the particular and the general, and thought is also born out of the image of what has been accumulated. All that is one’s inward state. That is deeply embedded in me. 克：好的，先生。所以我们说了， 积累就是时间，积累就是安全， 哪里有心理上的积累， 哪里就必然会有分裂， 思想就是个体和总体之间的运动， 而思想也脱胎于 积累起来的意象。 这一切都是一个人的内心状态。 这深深地嵌入到了我的内心。
45:43 B: Yes, physically and mentally. 博姆：是的，身体上和心理上。
45:45 K: All round. I recognise physically it is necessary, somewhat. 克：全方位的。我认识到身体上那或多或少是必要的。
45:50 B: But it's overdone, physically. 博姆：但是身体上也过头了。
45:53 K: One can overdo anything. But psychologically to realise that, how do I set about it? How do I, who has accumulated, accumulated for millennia – general and particular, that has been the habit – and how do I, not only recognise the habit, and when I do recognise the habit, how does that movement come to an end? That is the real question.

B: Yes. 		克：一个人可以把任何事都做过头。 但是要从心理上认识到这一点， 我该从哪里开始呢？ 我一直在积累，积累了几千年 ——个体和总体都如此——这已经成了习惯， 那我要怎样才能不仅意识到这个习惯， 而且当我意识到了这个习惯， 那种活动如何才能停止？ 这是真正的问题所在。

博姆：是的。
46:43 K: Where does intelligence play a part in all this? You follow what I'm saying? 克：智慧在这一切当中有什么作用？ 你明白我的意思吗？
46:51 B: There has to be intelligence to see this. 博姆：要看清这些就必须有智慧。
46:55 K: Is it intelligence? Is it so-called ordinary intelligence, or intelligence is something entirely different? 克：那是智慧吗？ 那是通常所谓的智慧吗， 还是说，智慧是一种完全不同的东西？
47:05 B: I don’t know what people ordinarily mean by intelligence, but if they mean just merely the capacity to... 博姆：我不知道人们通常所说的“智慧”是什么意思， 但是，如果他们说的只是一种能力
47:12 K: To discern, to distinguish, To solve...

B: To use logic. 		克：用来辨认、区分、 解决……

博姆：使用逻辑。
47:18 K: ...technical problems, economic problems – I'd call that partial intelligence, it is not really... 克：……技术问题、经济问题， 我会把那叫做局部的智慧，那不是真正的
47:26 B: You could call that skill in thought. 博姆：你可以把那叫做思想技巧。
47:27 K: Skill in thought, all right, skill in thought. But intelligence – wait a minute, that’s what I’m trying to find out. I realise this: accumulation, division, security, the general and particular, thought. I can see the reason of all that, the logic of all that. But logic, reason and explanation doesn’t end the thing. Another quality is necessary. Is that quality intelligence? I’m trying to move away from insight for a while. 克：思想技巧，好的，思想技巧。 但是智慧——等一下，这就是我想探明的。 我认识到了这些：积累、分裂、安全感、 总体和个体，思想。 我可以看清这一切的缘由，这一切的逻辑。 但是逻辑、理性和解释并不能终结那件事。 需要另一种品质。那种品质是智慧吗？ 我想暂时撇下“洞察”这个词。
48:19 B: Not to repeat the word so much.

K: Too much. Is intelligence associated with thought? 		博姆：不再过多地重复那个词。

克：说太多了。 智慧与思想有联系吗？
48:39 B: We don’t know what you mean by the word ‘associated’. 博姆：我们不知道你说的“有联系”是什么含义。
48:42 K: Is it related, is it part of thought, is it the outcome of very clear, precise, exact, logical conclusions of thought. 克：它是不是和思想有关，是不是思想的一部分， 是不是思想非常清晰、精确、准确、 有逻辑的结论的产物。
48:56 B: No, that would still be more and more skill. 博姆：不是，那就还是更多的技巧了。
48:59 K: Skill, I agree. Yes. 克：技巧，我同意。是的。
49:02 B: At least we're suggesting intelligence is a different quality. 博姆：至少我们说了智慧是另一种品质。
49:11 K: Is that intelligence related to love? 克：那种智慧和爱有关吗？
49:18 B: I’d say they go together. 博姆：我会说它们是一起的。
49:21 K: Yes, I’m just moving slowly into that. I’ve come to... I realise all that we've discussed this morning, and I’ve come to a blank wall, a solid wall, I can’t go beyond. And in observing, looking, fishing around, I come upon this word ‘intelligence’. And I see the so-called intelligence of thought, skill and all that, is not intelligence. So I’m asking further, is this intelligence associated, or related, or part of love? One cannot accumulate love. Right? 克：是的，我只是在慢慢地进入这个话题。 我已经到了……我领会了我们今天上午讨论的所有内容， 然后来到了一堵白墙、一堵硬墙跟前，我过不去了。 通过观察、审视、探寻， 我遇到了“智慧”这个词。 我也明白所谓思想的智慧、 技巧等等，都不是智慧。 于是我进一步问， 这种智慧和爱有联系、有关吗，或者是爱的一部分吗？ 一个人不能积累爱。对吗？
50:28 B: People might try. 博姆：人们可能会试图这么做。
50:30 K: It sounds silly! 克：那听起来太蠢了！
50:32 B: People do try to guarantee love. 博姆：人们确实会尝试确保有爱。
50:35 K: That is all romantic nonsense, cinema stuff. You cannot accumulate love, you cannot associate it with hate, all that. So it’s something entirely different, that love. And has that love intelligence? Which then operates – you follow? – which then breaks down the wall. I don’t know if...

B: Yes. 		克：那都是不切实际的无稽之谈，是电影里的东西。 你不能积累爱， 你不能把它和恨之类的东西联系起来。 所以它是一种截然不同的东西，那种爱。 而那种爱有智慧吗？然后它就能运作——你明白吗？ 它就能打破那堵墙了。我不知道有没有……

博姆：是的。
51:36 K: All right, let’s begin again. I don’t know what that love is. I know all the physical bit, I realise that pleasure, desire, accumulation, remembrance, pictures, are not love. All that, I’ve realised long ago. But I’ve come to the point where this wall is so enormous that I can’t even jump over it. So I’m now fishing around, to see if there is a different movement which is not a man-made movement. And that movement may be love – I am sorry to use that word, we’ll use it for the time being. Because that word has been so spoilt and misused. 克：好的，我们再重新开始。 我不知道那种爱是什么。 我知道肉体上的那一点，我认识到了 ——快感，欲望，积累，回忆，画面 都不是爱。那些我很久以前就认识到了。 但是我来到了这一步， 这堵墙太巨大了，以致于我连跳都跳不过去。 所以我现在四处搜寻， 看看有没有另一种运动 不是人为的活动。 而那种运动也许就是爱 ——抱歉用到了这个词，我们暂且用一下。 因为这个词已经被败坏了，被误用了。
52:39 B: You're saying love is a movement, not just a feeling.

K: Oh, no, no! 		博姆：你是说爱是一种运动，而不只是一种情感。

克：噢，当然不是！
52:45 B: Though it may involve feeling, but it’s not feeling. 博姆：尽管它可以包含情感，但它不是情感。
52:51 K: So that love with its intelligence, is that the factor that will break down or dissolve, or break up this wall? Not, 'I love you' or 'you love me'. Right? it’s not general or particular, it is something beyond. Right? 克：所以那种爱以及它的智慧，是那个 将会打破或者消除或者瓦解那堵墙的因素吗？ 而不是“我爱你”或者“你爱我”。对吗？ 它不是总体的或者个体的，它是一种超越其外的东西。对吗？
53:25 B: Yes, that’s a point... Another part of the background of man is to make love particularised, to particular things or individuals... 博姆：是的，这是一点 人背景的另一部分 是把爱变得特定化了，指向特定的事物或者个人
53:40 K: I think when one loves with that intelligence it covers the whole, it’s not particular or general – it is that! It is light, it’s not particular light. All right. Then, if that is the factor that will break down the wall which is in front of me, then... I don’t know that love. As a human being, having reached a certain point, I can’t go beyond it to find that love. What shall I do? What is... – not do or not do – but what is the state of my mind when I've realised any movement this side of the wall is still strengthening the wall – right? So I realise that, and, through meditation, etc., there is no movement. But the mind can’t go beyond it. 克：我认为当一个人用那样的智慧去爱， 它就涵盖了全部，它不是个体的或者总体的， 它就是那个！ 它就是光，而不是特定的光。 好的。然后，如果那就是 将会打破我面前这堵墙的因素， 那么……我不懂那种爱。 作为一个人，已经到了某一步， 我无法越过去找到那种爱。我该怎么办？ 什么……不是做什么或者不做什么， 而是，我内心的状态是怎样的， 当我认识到了在墙这边的任何运动 都依然是在加固那堵墙——对吗？ 所以我认识到了这一点，然后，通过冥想，等等， 就没有了活动。但是心就是无法越过它。
55:09 But you come along and say, ‘Look, that wall can be dissolved, broken down, if you have that quality of love with intelligence.’ And I say, ‘Excellent, but I don’t know what it is!’ What shall I do? I can’t do anything, I realise that. Whatever I do is still within this side of the wall, right? 可是你过来了，说，“瞧， 那堵墙可以被消除、打破， 如果你具备了那种有智慧的爱的品质。” 然后我说，“太好了，可我不知道那是什么！” 我该怎么办？我什么也做不了，我认识到了这一点。 无论我做什么，都依然属于墙的这一边，对吗？
55:45 So, am I in despair? Obviously not, because if I am in despair or depressed, I’m still moving in the same field. So all that has stopped. Realising that I cannot possibly do anything, any movement, what takes place in my mind? You follow, sir, what I’m asking? Is that right? I think that’s fairly logical. I realise I cannot do a thing! So what has happened to the quality of my mind, which has always moved to accumulate, to become... all that has stopped. The moment I realise, I can't... No movement, right? Is that possible? Or am I living in an illusion? Have I really gone through all this to come to that point? Or I suddenly say, I must be quiet – I don’t know if I am conveying it. 那么，我绝望了吗？ 显然没有，因为如果我绝望了或者沮丧了， 我就依然是在同一个领域中活动。 所以那一切都停止了。 认识到了我不可能做任何事、 有任何动作，我的内心会发生什么？ 先生，你明白我在问什么吗？ 这么说对吗？我认为这是相当合乎逻辑的。 我认识到我一件事都不能做！ 所以我心灵的品质发生了什么， 它之前一直蠢蠢欲动地积累、成为 那一切都停下了。 一旦我认识到，我不能……就没有了活动，对吗？ 那可能吗？还是我活在了幻觉里？ 我是不是真的经历了那一切 然后来到了那一步？还是我突然说，“我必须安静” ——我不知道我有没有说清楚。
57:19 B: Yes, that’s part of the same process. 博姆：是的，那还是同一个过程的一部分。
57:21 K: Same process.

B: To project from the past. 		克：同一个过程。

博姆：从过去进行投射。
57:27 K: So has my mind... Is there in my mind a revolution? Revolution in the sense that movement has completely stopped. And if it has, is love something beyond the wall? 克：所以我的心 我的心中是不是发生了一场革命？ “革命”的意思是 那种活动完全停止了。 如果确实停止了，爱还是墙外的某种东西吗？
58:09 B: It wouldn’t mean anything. 博姆：那个说法没有任何意义。
58:11 K: Of course, it couldn’t be. 克：当然了，不可能是。
58:13 B: The wall itself is the product of the process which is illusion. 博姆：墙本身就是 那个虚幻的过程的产物。
58:18 K: Exactly. So I’m realising the wall is this movement. So, when this movement ends, that quality of intelligence, love and so on, is there! That’s the whole point. 克：没错。所以我认识到了 墙就是那种活动。 所以，当这种活动停止了， 智慧、爱等等那些品质，就在了！ 这就是全部的意思。
58:45 B: Yes, could one say the movement ends, the movement sees that it has no point. 博姆：是的，我们能不能说那种活动终止了， 那种活动发现了它自己毫无意义。
58:56 K: It is so-called skilled to see a danger. 克：那就是所谓的善于发现危险。
59:05 B: Well, it could be. 博姆：哦，可能是。
59:07 K: Yes. Any danger demands certain amount of awareness. But I have never realised, as a human being, the accumulated process is a tremendous danger. 克：是的。任何危险都需要一定的觉察。 但是我从来没有认识到，作为一个人， 积累过程是一个巨大的危险。
59:23 B: Because that seems to be the essence of security. 博姆：因为那看起来就是安全感的核心。
59:28 K: You come along and point it out to me, and I’m listening to you very carefully and I actually perceive the danger of that. And perception is part of love, isn’t it? Ah.. I’m getting at it. 克：你过来跟我指了出来， 我非常认真地聆听了你， 然后实实在在地觉知到了它的危险。 而觉知就是爱的一部分，不是吗？啊……我明白了。
59:59 B: You’re suggesting that love is a kind of energy which is not specific or general and that it may momentarily envelop certain things. 博姆：你是说爱是一种能量， 它既不是特定的也不是总体的， 它可能立刻就包含了某些东西。
1:00:13 K: So perception without any motive, without any direction, etc., perception of the wall which has been brought into being by this movement of accumulation, the very perception of that is intelligence and love. Right? We’d better stop, it’s half past twelve.

B: Right. 		克：所以没有任何动机、没有任何方向等等的觉知， 对这堵墙的觉知——这堵墙是通过 这种积累活动才形成的—— 对这些的觉知本身就是智慧和爱。对吗？ 我们最好打住了，已经12点半了。

博姆：好的。
1:00:55 K: Should we go on? 克：我们还要继续吗？
1:00:57 B: How do you feel? Maybe it’s best to stop. 博姆：你觉得呢？可能最好停下来了。
1:00:59 K: Better stop. We've come to a point. When do we meet again?

B: Thursday, in two days. 		克：最好打住了。我们已经来到了某个点上。 我们什么时候再见面呢？

博姆：周四，两天后。
1:01:10 K: Right, sir. 克：好的，先生。