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OJBR80CB13 - 心理知识的终结
与大卫▪博姆的第十三次对谈
1980年9月18日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:32 K: May we continue with where we left off yesterday? 克：我们可以从昨天停下的地方继续探讨吗？
0:47 What plagues the mind? It is always following a certain pattern, always seeking. If it lets go of one pattern it picks up another pattern, keeps on functioning all the time within that. Why? One can give explanations, one sees why it does: for protection, for safety, for slackness, indifference, a certain amount of callousness, total disregard to one's own flowering, etc. 是什么在折磨着心灵？ 它总是遵循着某个模式，总是在追寻。 如果它放下一个模式，就会捡起另一个模式， 继续在那个模式之中不停运转。 为什么？ 一个人可以给出各种解释，也明白它为什么这么做： 为了保护，为了安全，因为懒散、冷漠、 一种麻木不仁， 完全不顾及自己的绽放，等等。
1:42 But I think it is very important to find out why our minds are always operating in a certain direction. 但是我认为弄清楚 我们的心为什么总是沿着某个特定的方向运转非常重要。
1:56 We came to the point when we said that – after one has been through all kinds of travail, investigation, and insight – one comes to a blank wall, and that blank wall can only wither away or be broken down when there is love and intelligence. That is where we came to the other day. But before we go into that I would like to ask: why do human beings, however intelligent, however learned, however philosophical and religious, they always fall into this groove? 我们已经来到了这一步：我们说 一个人经历了各种各样的痛苦、探索 和洞察之后， 来到了一堵白墙面前， 而那堵白墙 只能消失于或者被打破于 爱与智慧出现之时。 这就是我们那天说到的地方。 但是在我们探讨这个问题之前，我想先问一下： 为什么人类，无论多么明智、多么博学、 多么豁达和虔诚， 无一例外会落入这个窠臼？
2:59 B: I think the groove is inherent in the nature of the accumulated knowledge. 博姆：我认为这个窠臼是 积累的知识内在固有的本性。
3:06 K: Are you saying then that knowledge invariably must create a groove? 克：那么你是说知识必定会 形成一个窠臼？
3:15 B: Perhaps not ‘must’, but it has, in the way it has developed in mankind. Psychological knowledge, that is to say. 博姆：也许不是必定，但确实形成了， 就它在人类身上发展的方式而言。 心理知识——我们说的是。
3:25 K: We are talking of that, obviously. 克：我们显然说的是那个。
3:28 B: Psychological knowledge, I would agree, must create a groove. 博姆：心理知识，我同意，必定会形成窠臼。
3:33 K: But why isn't the mind aware of it, it sees the danger of it, see its mechanical repetition and that therefore there is nothing new in that, and yet keeps on doing it. 克：可是心为什么就觉察不到它， 看到了它的危险，看到了它机械的重复 因而其中没有任何新东西， 可还是继续那么做。
3:48 B: When we were discussing this accumulation of knowledge which really constitutes the groove... 博姆：当我们讨论到这种知识的积累 实际上就构成了那个窠臼
3:55 K: Yes, constitutes the groove, but why? 克：是的，构成了那个窠臼，可是为什么呢？
3:58 B: It is the same question. If you merely think of the accumulation of knowledge making a groove, then you don’t see why a person should stay in it. 博姆：那是同一个问题。 如果你只是考虑到知识的积累 会形成窠臼，那么你还是不明白 一个人为什么会待在里面。
4:10 K: Yes, that's what I am asking. 克：是的，这就是我的问题。
4:12 B: Now, it seems to me that the groove or the knowledge accumulated, seems to have a significance far beyond what its real significance is. That it carries a necessity. If we have knowledge of some object, like the microphone, it has some limited significance. Now, knowledge about your nation, the nation to which you belong seems to have immense significance. 博姆：在我看来，那个窠臼或者积累的知识 似乎具有了一种远远超出 其真正意义的重要性。 它携带了一种必要性。 如果我们拥有关于某个物体，比如麦克风的知识， 它具有某种有限的意义。 然而，关于你的国家的知识， 你所属的那个国家， 似乎就具有了无限的重要性。
4:47 K: Yes. So is this significance the cause of this narrowing down of the mind? 克：是的。所以，这种重要性是不是 让心灵变得狭隘的原因？
4:56 B: It holds the mind, this knowledge has a tremendous value beyond all other values. It makes the mind stick to that because it seems the most important thing in the world. 博姆：它囚禁了心灵，这种知识具有了一种 超出了其他所有价值的庞大价值。 它使得心灵固守于此， 因为它看起来是世界上最重要的东西。
5:09 K: You know, in certain philosophies, certain concepts in India, there is this philosophy that knowledge must end – you know it, of course, the Vedanta. But apparently very few people do end knowledge and talk from freedom. 克：你知道，在某些哲学里， 在印度的某些概念里， 有这种哲学认为知识必须终结 ——你当然知道，那就是《吠檀多》。 但是显然很少有人 真的终结了知识然后出于自由来讲话。
5:36 B: I would come back to that point: knowledge generally seems extremely important, worth holding on to, though a person may verbally say it should end. That is, knowledge about the self. 博姆：我想回到这一点上来： 知识通常看起来是极其重要的， 值得紧紧抓住， 尽管一个人可能口头上会说它必须终结。 指的是关于自己的知识。
5:54 K: You mean I am so stupid that I don’t see that this knowledge has very little significance essentially – psychological knowledge – and yet my mind clings to it? 克：你是说我是如此愚蠢 乃至看不到这种知识 实际上没什么重要性 ——心理知识—— 可我的心还是紧抓住它不放？
6:08 B: I wouldn’t quite put it that a person is that stupid but rather to say that this knowledge stupefies the brain. I mean that the brain being caught in this knowledge becomes stupefied. 博姆：我可能不太会说一个人那么愚蠢， 而是会说这种知识会让大脑变得愚蠢。 我是说大脑被困在这种知识里 就会变得愚蠢。
6:21 K: All right, but it doesn’t seem to extricate itself. 克：好的，但它似乎并没有让自己从中脱身。
6:25 B: Because it is already so stupefied that it can’t see what it is doing. 博姆：因为它已经变得如此愚蠢 乃至它看不到自己在做什么。
6:30 K: So what shall it do? I have been watching this, many years, why human beings attempt to become free from certain things, and yet this is the root of it, you understand, this psychological accumulation which becomes psychological knowledge and so it divides and all kinds of things happen around it and within it. And yet the mind refuses to let go. Is it that it doesn’t see? Or it has given to knowledge such immense importance? 克：那它该怎么办？ 我已经观察这件事好多年了， 为什么人类试图从 某些东西中解脱出来，而这就是根源所在， 你明白的，这种心理上的积累 变成了心理知识，所以它会造成分裂， 然后各种各样的事情就围绕着它并在它的框架之中发生了。 然而心却拒绝放开它。 是不是因为它没有看到？ 还是说，它赋予了知识如此巨大的重要性？
7:18 B: That is what I mean, yes. 博姆：我就是我的意思，是的。
7:21 K: Why? Is that because there is safety in it, security in it? 克：为什么？是不是因为其中存在安全、存在保障？
7:30 B: Part of it seems to be a source of security but I think in some way knowledge has taken on the significance of the absolute. Knowledge should be properly relative. But this knowledge of the mind, the psychological knowledge of the self, or the associated knowledge of religion... 博姆：一部分似乎是因为那是一种安全感的来源，但 我认为知识已经以某种方式承载了 绝对之物的意义。 知识应该只具有相对的意义。 但是这种心灵的知识， 关于自己的心理知识 或者有关宗教的知识
7:57 K: But you are not answering my question. I am an ordinary man, I realise all this and I realise the significance and the value of knowledge in different levels. But deeper down, inside one, this accumulated knowledge is very destructive. 克：可是你没有回答我的问题。 我是一个普通人，我认识到了这一切， 我也认识到了知识的 在不同层面上的意义和价值。 但是在内心深处， 积累起来的这种知识非常有破坏性。
8:18 B: True, but there is self-deception, knowledge deceives the mind so a person is not usually aware that it is destructive. 博姆：确实，但是存在一种自欺，知识欺骗了心灵， 所以一个人通常觉察不到它是有破坏性的。
8:31 K: Is that why human beings cling to it? 克：那就是人类为什么抓住它不放的原因吗？
8:35 B: Well, they can’t really... We don’t know exactly how they got started on it, but once it gets started the mind is generally in a state in which it is not able to look at this, because it is avoiding the question, there is a tremendous defensive mechanism to escape looking at the whole question.

K: Why? 		博姆：哦，他们不能真的 我们不知道他们究竟是怎么开始的， 但是一旦开始了， 心通常就会处于一种状态， 它没有能力去看这个问题，因为 它在回避这个问题， 有一种强大的防御机制 在逃避去看这整个问题。

克：为什么呢？有一种强大的防御机制 在逃避去看这整个问题。为什么？
8:59 B: It seems something supremely precious might be at stake. 博姆：好像有某种极为宝贵的东西 可能会面临危险。
9:05 K: One is strangely intelligent in other directions, capable and efficient, skilled, but here, where the root of all this trouble is, why don’t we comprehend it fully? What prevents the mind? You say it has given importance to knowledge. I acknowledge that, it is so, but, and yet it holds on. You must know. 克：一个人在其他方面出奇地明智， 有能力、有效率、技艺娴熟， 但是在这里，也就是所有麻烦的根源所在， 我们为什么就不能充分理解？是什么阻碍了心灵？ 你说是心赋予了知识以重要性。 我承认这一点，确实如此，但是， 它却依然紧抓不放。你肯定知道。
9:38 B: But I think that once this has happened there is a mechanical process that resists intelligence. 博姆：但是我认为一旦这件事发生了， 就会有一种机械的过程在抵制智慧。
9:48 K: So what shall I do? What shall I do as an ordinary man, I realise technological knowledge, etc., but the knowledge which I have accumulated, which is divisive, which is destructive, which is rather petty – and yet I hold on to that. I realise I must let it go but I can’t! What shall I do? I think this is the average person’s problem – a problem which arises when we are a little bit serious about all this. Is it the lack of energy?

B: Not primarily. The energy is being dissipated by the process. 		克：那我该怎么办？ 作为一个普通人，我该怎么办， 我认识到技术知识，诸如此类 但是我积累的那些知识 是分裂性的、破坏性的， 是非常微不足道的，可我还是抓住不放。 我意识到我必须放开它，但是我办不到！ 我该怎么办？ 我认为这就是普通人的问题， 一个会出现的问题， 如果我们对这一切有那么一点认真的话。 是因为缺乏能量吗？

博姆：这不是主要原因。 能量被这个过程耗费了。
10:55 K: Having dissipated a great deal of energy I haven’t got the energy to grapple with this? 克：已经耗费了很多能量， 所以我就没有了对付这个问题的能量？
11:03 B: That could come back quickly if we could get out of this. The energy is constantly being dissipated and a person may be a little worn down but he could recover if this would stop. I don’t think it is the main point. 博姆：那股能量很快就会回来，如果我们能够摆脱这个问题的话。 能量一直在不停被浪费， 一个人可能会有点儿疲惫， 但是如果这个过程停下来，他就可以恢复过来。 我不认为这是主要问题。
11:17 K: No, that is not the main point. So what shall I do, as a human being, realising that this knowledge is naturally, inevitably forming a groove in which I live? My next question is: how am I to break it down? 克：没错，这不是主要问题。那我该怎么办， 作为一个人，既然已经意识到了这种知识 不可避免地会形成我所生活的窠臼？ 我接下来的问题就是：我要如何打破它？
11:40 B: I am not sure that it is clear in general for people that this knowledge is doing all this, and also that the knowledge is knowledge, you see. It may seem to be some being, the self, the me, this knowledge is experienced as some entity: this knowledge creates the ‘me’ and the ‘me’ is now experienced as an entity which is not knowledge, but some real being. 博姆：我不确定人们总体上是清楚这一点的： 这种知识有这些所作所为， 还有知识就只是知识而已，你知道的。 它似乎成为了某种存在，自我，那个“我”， 这种知识被体会成了某种存在： 这种知识造就了“我”， 这个“我”现在被体验成了一个存在 ——认为它不是知识，而是某种真实的存在。
12:10 K: Are you saying this being is different from knowledge? 克：你是说，这个存在是有别于知识的？
12:15 B: It appears to be, it feigns difference. 博姆：它貌似不同，它装作是不同的。
12:18 K: But is it? 克：可它是吗？
12:20 B: It isn’t, but it has a very powerful ability... 博姆：它不是，但它具有一种非常强大的能力
12:23 K: But that has been my conditioning! 克：但那就是我的局限！
12:26 B: That is true. Now the question is, how do we get through that to break down the conditioning? 博姆：确实如此。现在的问题是， 我们如何冲过障碍打破这种局限？
12:29 K: That is the real point, you see. 克：这就是真正的症结所在，你瞧。
12:31 B: Because it creates an imitation or a pretension of a state of being. 博姆：因为它形成了一种拟态 或者假装成了一种存在状态。
12:39 K: Look, there are seven hundred million Catholics, millions and millions of Chinese. All... you follow? This is their central movement. And it seems so utterly hopeless! And realising the hopelessness of it I sit back and say, I can’t do anything. But if I apply my mind to it then the question arises: is it possible to function without psychological knowledge, in this world? I am rather concerned about it because I think wherever one goes, whether it is California, India, here or anywhere else, it is this central issue that must be resolved. 克：瞧，世界上有7亿天主教徒， 还有千千万万的中国人。都……你明白吗？ 这是他们的核心活动。 这看起来太不可救药了！ 而意识到这种无望之后， 我袖手旁观地说，我无能为力。 但是如果我用心去探究，那么问题就来了： 有没有可能 不带有心理知识地活在这个世界上？ 我非常关心这个问题， 因为我认为无论一个人走到哪里， 无论是加州、印度、这里还是别的任何地方， 这就是那个必须得到解决的核心问题。
14:07 B: That's right. But you see you may discuss this, or tell this to somebody, and he may say it looks reasonable, perhaps, but when his... let’s say that his status is threatened... that is psychological knowledge but it doesn’t seem to him that it is knowledge but something more. He does not see that his knowledge of his status is behind the trouble. Knowledge seems at first sight something passive, something which you know, which you could use if you wanted to or you could fail to use if you don’t want to, just put it aside, which is the way it should be. 博姆：没错。但是你瞧你可以讨论这个， 或者把这个告诉某个人，然后他也许会说这看起来很有道理， 但是当他的 比如说他的地位受到了威胁 那就是心理知识， 但是在他看来那不是知识 而是某种更为重要的东西。 他没有看到关于他地位的知识 就是麻烦背后的肇因。 知识乍一看来是一种被动的东西， 是某种你知道的东西， 如果你想用，你可以使用它， 或者如果你不想用，你可能就没法使用它， 只是把它放在一边，而这就是它应该的样子。
14:50 B: But when the moment comes...

K: Back again. 		但是当……

克：又回来了。
14:53 B: Knowledge no longer appears to be knowledge. How would you, if you were to talk to some politician... 博姆：知识不再看起来只是知识了。 如果你要跟某个政客讲，你要如何
15:12 K: Oh!

B: For example, I think somebody once wanted you to talk to Mao Tze Tung. you would probably get nowhere. 		克：噢！

博姆：比如说， 我想曾经有人想让你跟毛泽东谈一谈。 你可能什么也谈不出来。
15:22 K: Nowhere! The politicians and the people in power wouldn’t even listen to you, as the religious people won’t listen to you – so-called religious people. It is only the people who are discontented, who are frustrated, who feel they have lost everything, perhaps those will listen. But they won’t listen so that it is a real burning thing. 克：没错！政客和那些当权的人 甚至都不会听你讲， 就像那些宗教人士不会听你讲一样 ——所谓的宗教人士。 只有那些不满的人， 受挫的人，觉得他们失去了一切的人 可能会听你讲。 但是他们不会听的， 所以这真是一件急迫的事情。
16:00 How does one go about it? Say I have left Catholicism, Protestantism and all that nonsense, and also, I have a career, I know it is necessary to have knowledge there, but I have come to a point, as a human being, living in this world, I see how important it is not to be caught in the process of psychological knowledge, and yet I can’t let it go! It is always dodging me, I am playing tricks with it. It is like hide and seek. All right. From there we said, that is the wall I have to break down – we are approaching it differently. That's the wall I have to break down – not ‘I’ – that's the wall that has to be broken down. And we said that wall can be broken down through love and intelligence. Aren’t we asking something enormously difficult? 一个人要怎样开始呢？ 比如说，我已经抛弃了天主教、新教等等那些无稽之谈， 同时我也有一份职业， 我知道在那里需要拥有知识， 但是我已经来到了这一步，作为一个人， 活在这个世界上，我发现 不被困在心理知识的活动中有多么重要， 可我还是放不下它！ 它总是在避开我，我在跟它玩着各种把戏， 就像捉迷藏一样。 好的，从这里我们说过， 这就是那堵我必须打破的墙 ——我们换个方式来探究。 这是我必须打破的那堵墙——不是“我”—— 这是必须被打破的那堵墙。 我们说过那堵墙可以通过 爱和智慧来打破。 我们难道不是在要求一件难过登天的事吗？
17:25 B: It is difficult. 博姆：确实很难。
17:27 K: I am behind this side of the wall, and you are asking me to have that love and intelligence which will destroy the wall. But I don’t know what that love is, what that intelligence is, because I am caught in this, this side of the wall. And... I realise logically, sanely, as you pointed out, as an ordinary human being I realise what you are saying: it is accurate, true, logical, and I see the importance of it, but the wall is so strong and dominant and powerful that I can’t get beyond it. And we said the other day, that wall can be broken down through insight – we went into that. That insight becomes an idea. 克：我在这堵墙的这一边后面，而你要求我 拥有那种将会打破这堵墙的爱和智慧。 但是我不知道那种爱是什么，那种智慧是什么， 因为我困在了这里，在墙的这边。而 我从逻辑上、理智上意识到了，正如你所指出的， 作为一个普通人，我认识到了你所说的话： 它是准确的、真实的、有道理的，我也看到了它的重要性， 但是那堵墙是如此坚硬、高耸、强大， 以致于我无法越过它。 那天我们也说了，那堵墙可以 通过洞察来打破——这点我们探讨过了。 那种洞察就变成了一个概念。
18:37 B: Yes. 博姆：是的。
18:39 K: It is not an actuality, so you say, ‘Yes, I understand it, I see it’ but when you describe the insight, whether it is possible, how it is brought about, I immediately make an abstraction of it, which means I move away from the fact and the abstraction becomes all important. Which means knowledge. You follow what I mean? 克：它不是一个事实，所以你说， “是的，我明白了，我看到了， 但是当你描述那种洞察，它是否可能发生， 它要如何发生， 我立刻就把它抽象化了， 也就是说我离开了事实， 然后那个抽象的概念就变得无比重要了。” 而那就意味着知识。明白我的意思吗？
19:06 B: The activity of knowledge. 博姆：知识的活动。
19:08 K: So I am back again! 克：所以我又绕回来了！
19:10 B: The general difficulty is this, that knowledge is not just sitting there as a form of information but it is extremely active, meeting every moment and shaping every moment according to the past knowledge, so even when we raise this issue knowledge is all the time acting.

K: All the time waiting, 		博姆：通常的困难就在于此， 知识不是只坐在那里 作为一种形式的信息存在，而是极度活跃， 迎接着每个瞬间，也塑造着每个瞬间 ——根据过去的知识， 所以即使在我们提出这个问题时， 知识依然始终在活跃着。

克：一直等在那里。
19:30 B: Waiting and then acting. One point is to know that our whole tradition is that knowledge is not active but it is... 博姆：等待然后行动。 需要知道的一点是我们的整个传统都认为 知识不是活跃的，而是
19:38 K: Very active! 克：非常活跃！
19:39 B: ...it is really active but people generally don’t think of it that way. They think it is just sitting there. 博姆：……它其实非常活跃但是人们 通常不那么认为。 他们认为它只是坐在那里而已。
19:45 K: It is waiting.

B: It is waiting to act, you see. Anything you try to do about it, knowledge is already acting. By the time you realise that this is the problem it has already acted. 		克：它在等候。

博姆：它伺机而动，你瞧。 无论你想做对它什么， 知识都已经在行动了。 当你意识到这就是问题所在时， 它已经行动了。
20:02 K: Yes. Do I realise it as a problem, or an idea which I must carry out? You see the difference? 克：是的。我是意识到它是一个问题， 还是把它当成了一个我必须实现的理念？ 你明白其中的区别吗？
20:14 B: The first point is that knowledge automatically turns everything into an idea you must carry out. That is the whole way it is built. 博姆：首要的一点是知识自动地就把一切变成了 一个你必须实现的概念。这就是它构建的整个方式。
20:22 K: That is the whole way I have lived! 克：这就是我整个的生活方式！
20:24 B: Knowledge can’t do anything else. 博姆：知识别的什么事都做不了。
20:27 K: How am I to break that even for a... 克：我如何才能打破它，哪怕只是
20:39 B: It seems to me that if you could see, observe, be aware... Knowledge could be aware of itself at work. The point is, knowledge seems to work unaware, it is just simply waiting there and then acts, and by that time it has disrupted the order of the brain. 博姆：在我看来，如果你能够看到、观察、觉察到 知识能够觉察到它自己在运作。 重点是，知识似乎是无知无觉地在运作， 它只是等在那里然后行动， 而到那时它就已经打乱了大脑的秩序。
21:08 K: I am very concerned about this, because wherever I go this is what is happening. And it has become a problem, not for me, but it is something that has to be resolved. Would you say the capacity to listen is far more important than any of this, any explanations, any logic – to listen? 克：我非常关心这个问题， 因为无论我走到哪里，事情都是这样发生的。 它已经变成了一个问题，不是对我来说， 而是它是一件必须得到解决的事情。 你会不会说 ，倾听的能力 比这些都重要许多， 比任何解释、任何逻辑——倾听？
22:04 B: It comes to the same problem. 博姆：那又回到了同一个问题。
22:05 K: No, I am trying... It doesn’t. I want to see if there is a possibility that, when I listen... listen to what you are saying so completely the wall has broken down. You understand? I am trying to find out, sir. I am an ordinary man, and you are telling me all this, and I realise what you are saying is so. And I am concerned about it, I am really deeply involved in what you are saying. And, somehow, the flame isn’t lit, all the fuel is there but the fire isn’t there. So what, as an ordinary man, what shall I do! This is my everlasting cry. 克：不，我是想……不是同一个问题。 我想看看有没有一种可能性，当我倾听 如此全然地倾听你说的话 乃至那堵墙就被打破了。你明白吗？ 我想弄清楚，先生。 我是个普通人，而你告诉了我这一切， 我认识到你所说的确实如此。 我关心这个问题， 我真的深深地潜心于你所说的话。 然而，不知怎的，火焰就是没有点燃， 所有的燃料都在了，可是火并没有烧起来。 那么，作为一个普通人，我该怎么办？！ 这是我永恒的呼唤。
23:24 B: If it is the capacity to listen then we have the question of, say the ordinary man is full of opinions, so he can’t listen. 博姆：如果是倾听能力的问题，那么 我们就有了这个问题，比如说普通人满怀着观点， 所以他不能倾听。
23:34 K: Ah! If you are listening with opinions, you might be just as well dead! That’s nonsense! 克：啊！如果你带着观点去听， 你还不如死掉算了！那纯属胡闹！
23:41 B: Knowledge has all sorts of defences. If you are thinking of trying to make it possible for the ordinary man, to have this perception – that's really what you are asking, isn’t it? At least those who are interested.

K: Yes. 		博姆：知识有各种各样的防御。 如果你想试着 让普通人有可能 拥有这种洞察，那实际上就是你在要求的，不是吗？ 至少是那些感兴趣的。

克：是的。
24:00 B: Knowledge has a tremendous number of defences, it is against perceiving this. It has evolved in such a way that it is built so as to resist seeing so it has opinions which also act immediately. 博姆：知识有一大堆的防御， 它在妨碍对这一点的洞察。它演进的方式就是这样的， 它的形成方式就是要抗拒看到真相， 所以它抱有许多同样会马上运作的观点。
24:21 K: I understand that, sir. But I want to find! Not a drug, not a medicine, not a way, but there must be a communication between you and me who is the ordinary man, a communication so that the communication is so strong that my act of listening to you and you communicating with me operates. You follow? 克：我明白这一点，先生。 但是我想弄清楚真相！ 不是一种麻醉剂，不是药物，不是一个方法，而是 你和我这个普通人之间必须有一种交流， 一种如此强有力的交流 以致于我对你的倾听 和你与我的交流就起到了作用。你明白吗？
25:02 B: Yes, so you have to break into, through this opinion, through the whole structure. 博姆：是的，所以你必须突破 这种观点，突破这整个结构。
25:06 K: Of course. That's why I have come here. An ordinary man, I have come for that. I have left all the churches and all that stuff, I have thrown them miles away, I have finished with all that. I have just come here and I realise all that has been said here is true and I am burning to find out. When you communicate with me, your communication is so strong, so real! You are not speaking from knowledge, you are not speaking from opinion, you are really a free human being who is trying to communicate with me. And can I listen with that intensity which you – the communicator- is giving to me? 克：当然。这就是我来这里的原因。 一个普通人，我来就是为了这个。 我已经离开了所有的教会以及所有那类东西， 我已经把它们抛开了十万八千里， 我已经了结了那一切。我刚刚来到这里， 我认识到这里所说的一切都是真实的， 我十分渴望发现真相。 当你与我交流，你的交流是如此强有力，如此真实！ 你不是根据知识在讲， 你不是根据观点在讲， 你真的是一个自由的人， 在尽力与我交流。 而我能否带着那种热情去倾听 你这个交流者向我传递的东西？
26:13 B: Well, we would have to ask, is the ordinary man full of that? 博姆：哦，我们得问问， 那个普通人充满了那种热情吗？
26:19 K: Ah, no, he is not. He wants the pub. No, I said I am an ordinary man but I have moved away from all that, I have come here. I have left all that. I have also realised in opinions I can grow, multiply, gather opinions, which is partly prejudice, etc. I realise all that. And I want to listen to somebody who is telling the truth, and, in the very telling of it, something is taking place in me. And because I'm so ardently listening, it happens. I wonder if I am conveying anything. 克：啊，不，他没有。他想要消遣。 不，我说了我是个普通人， 但是我已经离弃了那一切，我来到了这里。 我离开了那一切，我也意识到了 在观点中，我可以发展、增加、收集观点， 而那在一定程度上就是偏见，等等。 我认识到了这一切。 然后我想聆听某个 讲述真理的人，而就在讲述过程中， 我身上就发生了某些事。 而因为我如此热切地倾听，它就发生了。 我想知道我是不是说明白了什么。
27:24 After all, as you are a great scientist, I am one of your students, you want to tell me something. You are telling me about something which I know must be enormously important because you have given your life to it, and as a student... I have given up so much just to come here. Is it the fault of you, who are communicating with me, that I don’t receive it instantly? You understand? Or is it my fault that I am incapable of really listening to you? 说到底，因为你是一位大科学家， 而我是你的一个学生，你想告诉我些什么。 你在跟我说一件 我知道肯定非常重要的事情， 因为你把一生都交给了这件事， 而作为一名学生 我放弃了那么多就为了来到这里。 是不是你这个与我交流的人的错， 导致我没有立刻接收到它？你明白吗？ 还是说，是我的错，是我没能力 真正去倾听你？
28:15 B: Well, suppose the difficulty is that I am incapable of listening, then what can be done? 博姆：哦，假设 困难在于我没有能力倾听， 那能怎么办呢？
28:26 K: No, nothing can be done. You see, that is the difficulty. If I am incapable of listening because I am full of prejudices and opinions, and judgements, defence, you know, the built up, and of course I won’t listen to you then. 克：不能，什么也做不了。 你瞧，这就是困难所在。 如果我没有能力倾听， 因为我充满了偏见、观点、评判、 防御，你知道的，那些构建起来的东西， 那我当然就不会倾听你。
28:47 B: Let’s say that here comes somebody who has got through some of these defences but perhaps there are others he is not aware of. Not quite so simple as that. 博姆：比如说这里来了一个人， 他已经了结了其中一些防御，但是可能 还有其他一些防御他还没发觉。 这不是那么简单的事。
29:01 K: I think it is simple. I feel it is dreadfully simple somehow. I think, if I could listen with all my being, with all my attention, it takes place. That is as simple as that, I think. You see, sir, you are telling me something and I am absorbing it, and so there is an interval between your telling and my absorbing. I don’t know if...

B: Yes. 		克：我认为这很简单。 我觉得从某种意义上说这出奇地简单。 我认为，如果我能够 用我的整个存在、我所有的注意力去倾听，那件事就会发生。 就是这么简单，我认为。 你瞧，先生，你在告诉我一件事， 而我在吸收它， 所以你的讲述和我的吸收之间 就存在一个间隙。我不知道……

博姆：是的。
30:00 K: And in that interval is the danger. If I didn’t absorb but absolutely listen to it with all my being, it is finished! Is it because in this there is no shadow of pleasure? You follow? You are not offering me any pleasure, any gratification. You are saying, 'It is so, take it!' But my mind is so involved in pleasure it must be pleasurable to listen. You follow what I mean?

B: Yes. 		克：在那个间隙中就存在危险。 如果我没有吸收，而是完完全全地倾听， 用我的整个存在，事情就结束了！ 是不是因为这当中没有丝毫快感的阴影？ 你明白吗？ 你没有提供给我任何快感、任何满足。 你说，“就是这样，领会它！” 但是我的心如此沉浸于快感之中， 它必须得开心才肯听。 你明白我的意思吗？

博姆：明白。
31:01 K: I won’t listen to anything that is not completely satisfactory. I realise too the danger of that. 克：我不会听任何不能让我 完全满意的东西。 我也认识到了这么做的危险。
31:15 B: Danger? 博姆：危险？
31:16 K: Of seeking satisfaction, pleasure. So I say, ‘All right, I won’t, I see what I am doing.’ So I put that aside too: no pleasure, no reward, no punishment in listening but there is only pure observation. 克：寻求满足、快感的危险。 所以我说，“好的，我不会了，我明白我在做什么了。” 所以我把那些也抛在了一边：在聆听中不要快感，不要奖赏， 也没有惩罚，只有纯粹的倾听。
31:37 So we come back to that point: is pure observation, which is actually listening, is that pure observation love? I think it is. Again...

B: Again what? 		所以我们又回到了这一点上：是不是纯粹的观察 ——实际上就是倾听——那纯粹的观察就是爱？ 我想是的。 再一次……

博姆：再一次什么？
32:04 K: You have stated it and then my mind says – I am fairly ordinary, I have come here – my mind immediately says, ‘Give it to me. Tell me what to do!’ When I ask you, ‘Tell me what to do’, I am back into the field of knowledge. It is so instantaneous. So I refuse to ask you what to do. Then where am I? You have told me perception without any motive, direction, pure perception is love. And that perception, love, is intelligence, they are not three separate things, they are one thing. I have a feeling for it. Because you have led me up very carefully – not led me – you have pointed out very carefully step by step, and I have come to that point, I have a feeling for it. I am sensitive enough, by listening to all this, to come to that point when I have a feeling. It says, ‘By Jove, that is so.’ But it goes away so quickly. Then begins, ‘How am I to get it back?’ Again the remembrance of it – which is knowledge – blocks. 克：你已经做了陈述，然后我的心说： 我非常普通，我来到了这里， 我的心立刻说，把它交给我吧， 告诉我该怎么做！ 当我让你告诉我该怎么做， 我就又回到了知识的领域当中。 瞬间就回去了。 所以我拒绝问你该怎么办。 然后我到了哪里？ 你已经跟我说了 没有任何动机、方向的洞察， 纯然的洞察就是爱。 而那种洞察，那种爱就是智慧， 它们并不是三个分开的东西，它们是一件事。 我对它有了一种感觉。 因为你一直在小心翼翼地引领我——不是引领我， 你一步步非常小心地指了出来， 我已经来到了这一步，我对它有了一种感觉， 通过倾听这一切，我已经足够敏感， 来到了这一步，这时我有了一种感受。 它说：“天哪，就是这样。” 但是它非常快就走开了。 然后我就开始问：我怎样才能让它回来？ 再一次，对它的回忆也就是知识变成了障碍。
34:10 B: What you are saying is that every time there is a communication, knowledge gets to work in many different forms. 博姆：你说的是，每一次 有交流的时候知识都会开始 以各种形式运作起来。
34:22 K: So you see it is enormously difficult to be free of knowledge. 克：所以你瞧真的是太难 摆脱知识了。
34:31 B: Yes. We could ask why doesn’t knowledge wait until it is needed? 博姆：是的。我们可以问问为什么知识不能 等到需要它的时候才出现？
34:39 K: Ah, that requires, sir! – that means to be psychologically free of knowledge but when occasion arises you are acting from freedom, not from knowledge. 克：啊，那需要，先生！那就意味着 心理上摆脱掉知识， 而当情况出现，你是从自由中行动的， 而不是来自于知识。
35:00 B: Not from knowledge, but knowledge comes in as information. It informs your action but it is not the source. 博姆：不是来自于知识，但知识是作为信息出现的。 它为你的行动提供信息，但它不是源头。
35:09 K: That is – to put it rather succinctly – freedom from knowledge, and being free, it is from freedom one communicates, not from knowledge. I wonder if...?

B: Yes. 		克：简而言之就是， 有了从知识中解脱的自由，因为是自由的， 所以一个人的交流是来自于自由的，而不是来自于知识。 我不知道……？

博姆：是的。
35:30 K: That is, from emptiness there is communication. One may use the word, or language which is the outcome of knowledge, but it is from that state of complete freedom. 克：也就是，从空无中有了交流。 一个人可以使用文字或者语言， 这些是知识的产物， 但交流是来自于那个彻底自由的状态的。
35:52 B: Yes. And now communication takes place but it is concerning the question of knowledge as the irrelevance of psychological knowledge, that is the communication. 博姆：是的。现在交流发生了， 但它关注的是知识的问题， 也就是心理知识的无关紧要， 这是交流的内容。
36:06 K: Yes. Now sir, can I communicate with you from freedom? Suppose I, as a human being, have come to that point where there is complete freedom from knowledge, and, from that freedom, a communication, using words, takes place. Right? Now will you, as a scientist, of great scientific eminence – I am not... please, I am being polite – will you communicate with me, can I communicate with you without any barrier? You follow? You understand what I mean, I am not trying to... Can I communicate with another – or rather let me put it, can that man who is free, totally, from knowledge, but uses knowledge merely as a means of communication, can I be in such a state of mind to receive that communication? 克：是的。 那么先生，我能跟你从自由中交流吗？ 假设我，作为一个人，已经来到了这一步， 彻底摆脱了知识， 然后从那种自由中， 一种使用语言的交流就发生了。对吗？ 那么你，作为一个科学家，在科学界声名卓著， 我不是……我是满怀敬意的—— 你会与我交流吗， 我能与你毫无障碍地交流吗？你明白吗？ 你明白我的意思吗，我不是想 我能否与另一个人交流， 或者不如这么说， 那个彻底摆脱了知识 而只是把知识作为交流手段的人， 我能否处于这样一种心灵状态 能够接收那种交流？
37:48 B: Yes, if knowledge is seen to be information. Knowledge ordinarily seems more than information, it seems that knowledge is itself free. One does not ordinarily see that knowledge is not free. 博姆：是的，如果知识被看作是信息的话。 知识通常看起来 不只是信息而已，看起来知识本身就是自由的。 一个人通常看不到知识并不自由。
38:06 K: Knowledge is never free. 克：知识从来都不自由。
38:08 B: No, but it may seem at first sight, you are free to use your knowledge.

K: Of course. 		博姆：没错，但它乍一看来像是自由的， 你可以自由地运用你的知识。

克：当然。
38:13 B: But it isn’t free and any activity of knowledge is part of the un-freedom. 博姆：但它并不是自由的，知识的任何活动 都是不自由的一部分。
38:20 K: Of course. If I want to understand myself I must be free to look at myself. 克：当然。如果我想了解自己， 我就必须能够自由地去看自己。
38:25 B: And knowledge has pressures in it to prevent you from looking. 博姆：而知识自带各种压力，阻止你去看。
38:29 K: Prevents me from looking, So obvious! Sorry. 克：阻止我去看。所以很明显！抱歉。
38:32 B: It may be obvious at that stage, but in general people don’t see that. But let’s leave that aside now. 博姆：在那个阶段可能很明显， 但人们通常看不到这一点。 但是我们先把这个放在一边。
38:43 K: If I am full of opinions and judgements and evaluations, to look at myself I must be somewhat free from it to look! It is so clear! 克：如果我满怀着观点、判断和评价的话， 要看自己，我就必须一定程度上摆脱它们才能去看！ 这再明显不过了！
38:57 B: Yes, but one tends generally to say that there are certain kinds of knowledge which are harmful, like prejudice, and then you say there are other kinds which are not harmful, which are not prejudices. 博姆：是的，但是一个人通常会说 有些种类的知识 是有害的，比如偏见，然后你说 还有另一种知识是无害的， 它们不是偏见。
39:08 K: No, the whole business. 克：不，那整个把戏。
39:09 B: The whole thing is all one structure. It is impossible to have prejudice in one part without having it in the other. 博姆：这整件事都是同一个结构。 不可能一部分抱有偏见 而另一部分没有。
39:24 K: How will you communicate with me who have come to a certain point when I am really... grasping, hoping, burning to receive what you are saying so completely it is finished? Am I, having come here, am I in that state, really? Or am I fooling myself? 克：你要如何与我交流， 我已经来到了某一步，此时我真的 内心燃烧着渴望想要接收你说的内容 于是事情就彻底结束了？ 既然来到了这里，我是不是真的处在了那个状态？ 还是说，我在愚弄着自己？
40:06 B: Well, that is the question: knowledge is constantly deceiving itself. 博姆：哦，那就是问题所在了： 知识总是在欺骗它自己。
40:10 K: Of course. 克：当然。
40:12 B: I would say that it is not even that I am deceiving myself but knowledge has a built-in tendency to deceive itself. 博姆：我会说 甚至都不是我在欺骗自己， 而是知识有一种内设的欺骗自己的倾向。
40:25 K: So sir, is my mind always deceiving itself? 克：所以，先生，我的心是否一直在欺骗它自己？
40:32 B: The tendency is constantly there when knowledge is operating psychologically. 博姆：这个倾向一直在那， 当知识在心理上运作的时候。
40:37 K: So what shall I do? Come back to the same blasted question. 克：那我该怎么办？ 还是回到了同一个该死的问题上。
40:42 B: The question of deceiving oneself, again it is the same point: to listen. 博姆：欺骗自己这个问题， 还是落到了同一点上：倾听。
41:01 K: Why don’t we listen, sir? Why don’t we immediately understand this thing, instantly, immediately, why? We can give the reasons why, but that doesn’t... What? Old age, conditioning, laziness, ten different things, that’s all so... 克：我们为什么不能倾听，先生？ 我们为什么不能立刻明白这件事， 立即，马上，为什么？ 我们可以给出原因、为什么，但是那并不能 什么？年老，制约， 懒惰，五花八门的原因，那些都太
41:32 B: That is superficial.

K: ...meaningless. 		博姆：那都是表面的。

克：……毫无意义。
41:39 B: But would it be possible to give the deep reason for it? 博姆：但是有没有可能给出深层的原因呢？
41:44 K: Knowledge, we come back to the same thing! Is it that the knowledge which is the ‘me’... 克：因为知识，我们又回到了同一件事上！ 是不是因为知识，也就是“我”
41:56 B: Yes, that is the point. 博姆：是的，这就是关键了。
41:58 K: ...the knowledge which is the ‘me’ is so tremendously strong – as an idea, not as a fact. 克：……知识，也就是我， 是如此惊人地强大——作为一个概念，而非事实。
42:07 B: Yes, I understand that it is an idea. But the idea is... That's what I tried to say, that the idea has tremendous significance and meaning. Suppose you have the idea of God, this takes on a tremendous power. 博姆：是的，我明白它是一个概念。 但这个概念是……这就是我之前想说的， 概念拥有了巨大的重要性和意义。 假设你有个上帝的概念， 这就承载了巨大的力量。
42:27 K: It’s like ‘I am British’, or French – it gives me great energy. 克：就像我是个英国人、法国人一样， 它给了我巨大的能量。
42:32 B: And also it creates a state of the body which seems to be the very being of the self. Now the person doesn’t experience it as mere knowledge but he first feels something very powerful which doesn’t seem to be knowledge. 博姆：同时它也引发了一种身体状态， 看上去那就像是自我的存在一样。 而这个人并没有体会到 它仅仅是知识而已，而是首先感觉到 某种非常强大的东西，它看起来不像是知识。
42:52 K: Yes. Are we going round and round? It seems like it. 克：是的。我们是在来回绕圈子吗？看起来是这样的。
43:00 B: Well, I was wondering if there is anything that could be communicated about that overwhelming power that seems to come with knowledge and with the self. 博姆：哦，我想知道能不能 交流 一下这种压倒性的 似乎是伴随着知识和自我而来的力量。
43:15 K: With identification. 克：还有认同。
43:16 B: With identification. That may be something that would be worth looking into. 博姆：还有认同。这也许是一件 值得探究的事。
43:21 K: What does the word, – I have forgotten – the root meaning of ‘identification’? 克：我忘了 “认同”这个词的词根义是什么？
43:26 B: Well, ‘always the same’. 博姆：哦，是“一直是老样子”。
43:28 K: It’s ‘always the same’, that’s right. That’s it, you see? It is always the same. There is nothing new under the sun. 克：它一直是老样子，没错。就是这样，你明白了？ 一直是老样子。太阳底下没有新鲜事。
43:42 B: That is the essence of it. If you say the self is always the same, It tries to be always the same in essence if not in detail. 博姆：那就是它的核心意思。 如果你说自我一直是老样子， 它确实一直试图保持原样——从本质上，如果不说细节的话。
43:55 K: Yes, yes. 克：是的，是的。
43:57 B: I think this is the thing that goes wrong with knowledge that knowledge attempts to be knowledge of what is always the same, so it holds. 博姆：我认为这就是 知识出错的地方，知识企图 做一种始终保持原样的知识， 所以它会固守。
44:07 K: Of course, sir, it's always the same. 克：当然，先生，它始终是老样子。
44:09 B: Knowledge itself tries to find what is permanent and perfect and always the same. Even independent of any of us. It is built into, like the cells, you know. 博姆：知识本身试图发现 什么是永恒的、完美的、始终保持原样的。 甚至是独立于我们任何一个人而存在的。 它是内嵌的，就像细胞一样，你知道。
44:27 K: From this arises a question: is it possible to attend? I am trying to use the word ‘diligent’. Is it possible to diligently attend? Diligence in the sense, be accurate, you know. 克：从这里就有了一个问题： 有可能全神贯注吗？ 我想用“勤奋”这个词。 有没有可能勤奋地关注？ “勤奋”的意思是精确，你知道的。
44:58 B: Literally it means ‘to take pains’, that’s its root. 博姆：它字面上的意思是不辞劳苦，这是它的词根义。
45:02 K: To take pain, take the whole of it. Sir, there must be some other way round all this intellectual business! We've exercised a great deal of intellectual capacity and that intellectual capacity has led to the blank wall. I approach it from every direction, eventually the wall is there, which is the ‘me’, with my knowledge, my prejudice, and all the rest of it – me. And the ‘me’ then says, ‘I must do something about it’ which is still the 'me'. We all know that. 克：不拒辛苦，接纳它的全部。 先生，必须有另一种方式 绕过这整个智力的把戏！ 我们运用了大量智力上的能力， 而这种智力能力就引到了这堵白墙面前。 我从各个方向靠近它， 最后来到了这堵墙，也就是“我”， 连同我的知识、我的偏见， 等等诸如此类——“我”。 然后这个“我”说，“我必须对此采取行动” ——那还是“我”。这个我们都知道。
46:03 B: Well, the ‘me’ wants to be always the same, and at the same time it tries to be different. 博姆：哦，“我”想要始终保持原样， 同时又想变得不一样。
46:07 K: Different, yes, put on a different coat. It is always the same. So the mind which is functioning with the ‘me’ is always the same mind. Good lord, you see, sir, back again! 克：不一样，是的，披上一件不同的外衣。 它始终都是老样子。所以带着“我” 运转的心始终是同一颗心。 天哪，你瞧，先生，又回来了！
46:30 B: Yes, that ‘always the same’ gives a tremendous force. Now is it possible to leave go that ‘always the same’? 博姆：是的，那个始终老样子的东西具有惊人的力量。 那么，有没有可能抛开那个始终老样子的东西？
46:48 K: You see, we have tried everything: fasting, every kind of thing to get rid of the 'me' with all its knowledge, all its illusions and so on. One tries to identify with something else, which is the same. I mean a serious man has done all this and comes back to the fundamental question: what will make this wall totally disappear? I think, sir, it is only possible when I can give my total attention to what you are saying. There is no other means to break down the wall – not the intellect, not the emotions, not any of those things. When somebody who is beyond the wall, who has gone beyond, broken down the wall, says, ‘Listen, for God’s sake, listen!’. When I listen to you my mind is empty. So it is finished! You follow what I am saying? 克：你瞧，我们做过了一切尝试： 禁欲，做了各种事情想要去除那个“我” 连同它所有的知识、幻觉，等等。 一个人试图与别的某种东西相认同，那还是同一回事。 我是说，一个认真的人已经做了这一切，然后回到了 这个最根本的问题上： 什么能让这堵墙彻底消失？ 我认为，先生，只有当我能够 对你所说的话付出我全部的注意力，那才可能。 没有其他办法能打破这堵墙 ——智力不行，情感不行，那些东西统统不行。 当有个到了墙那边的、已经超越了、 打破了这堵墙的人说，“听一听，看着上帝的份上，认真听！” 当我聆听你时，我的心是空的。 然后事情就结束了！你明白我说的意思吗？
48:50 B: You see, generally one would feel, OK, it is finished, but something will happen and it’s going to come back. 博姆：你瞧，通常一个人会觉得，“好吧， 它结束了，但是会发生一些事，然后它还会回来。”
48:59 K: Ah! I have no sense of hoping to come back, whether I’ll have it in the future. It is empty and therefore listening. It is finished! 克：啊！我根本没有希望回来， 我将来能否拥有它。 心是空的，因而在倾听。然后就结束了！
49:48 We had better stop, we have come to a point... doesn’t matter. Five minutes is enough. I would like to go on differently. You are a scientist. To discover something new, you must have a certain emptiness from which there is a different perception. 我们最好停下了，我们已经来到了一个点上……没关系。 5分钟足够了。 我想换个方式再接着讲。 你是个科学家。 要发现一样新东西， 你就必须拥有某种空无， 从那里就会有一种不一样的洞察。
50:47 B: There is a difference in the sense that usually the question is limited, and so the mind may be empty with regard to that question. 博姆：这里有一种不同，也就是说 通常问题就是有限的， 所以心关于那个问题可能是空的。
51:01 K: Particular question, yes. 克：特定的问题，是的。
51:03 B: Allowing for discovery and insight in that question. 博姆：就允许了发现和洞察进入那个问题。
51:11 K: But can that mind, which has been specialised, and therefore enquiring into something it becomes empty and from that emptiness you discover something new, I understand that. But without any specialisation, does this emptiness hold every other... – I don’t know... 克：但是，那颗心一直是专业化的， 当它探究某件事的时候就变得空无了， 然后从那份空无中，你发现了一些新事物。 这个我明白。 但是，如果没有任何专业化， 这种空无能否容纳其他每一个……我不知道
51:43 B: We have to ask that we are not questioning a particular area but rather we are questioning the whole of knowledge. 博姆：我们得问问 我们不是在质疑一个特定的领域， 而是在质疑知识这个整体。
51:57 K: It is most extraordinary when you come into it. 克：如果你深入探究这个问题，那是最了不起的一件事。
52:02 B: As you were saying, it's the end of knowledge, as the Vedanta. 博姆：就像你说过的，那就是知识的终结，就像《吠檀多》那样。
52:05 K: That is the real answer. 克：这就是真正的答案。
52:13 B: If a person can take this scientific attitude and question the whole of knowledge, then... 博姆：如果一个人能够采用这种科学的态度 去质疑整个知识，那么
52:18 K: Oh, of course. 克：噢，当然。
52:25 B: But generally people would feel 'I must keep knowledge in one area to be able to question it in another'. That might worry people to say, 'With what knowledge do I question my knowledge?' 博姆：但是人们通常会觉得 “我必须保有一个领域的知识 才能去质疑另一个领域。” 那可能会让人们担忧地说： “我用什么知识来质疑我的知识呢？”
52:36 K: Yes. With what knowledge I question my knowledge, quite. 克：是的。“我用什么知识来质疑我的知识”，没错。
52:54 B: But in a way we do have knowledge we have gone through it logically and rationally and seen that the whole structure makes no sense, that it is inconsistent and has no meaning. The structure of psychological knowledge has no meaning, it has been done already, in a way... 博姆：但是在某种意义上我们确实拥有知识， 我们合乎逻辑地、理性地探究了知识， 发现这整个结构都没有道理， 它自相矛盾而且毫无意义。 这个心理知识的结构毫无意义， 已经探究过它了，以一种方式
53:15 K: Sir, would you then, from there, from that emptiness: is there a ground or a source from which all things begin? Matter, human beings, their capacities, their idiocies – the whole movement starts from there. 克：先生，那你会不会，从那里， 从那种空无中，有没有一个基础 或者源头，万事万物从那里发源？ 物质，人类，他们的能力，他们的愚蠢， 这整个运动都从那里发端。
53:42 B: Yes, we could consider that, certainly. Let’s try to clarify it a little. So we have the emptiness. 博姆：是的，我们当然会考虑那个问题。 我们来试着说清楚一点。 所以我们有了这种空无。
53:54 K: Yes, emptiness in which there is no movement of thought – as knowledge, of course. 克：是的，空无中 没有知识这样的思想活动，毫无疑问。
54:02 B: As psychological knowledge. 博姆：指的是心理知识。
54:04 K: Of course, I understand that.

B: All right. So, well then.. 		克：当然，这点我明白。

博姆：好的。那么，然后
54:08 K: And therefore no time.

B: No time. No psychological time. 		克：因而没有了时间。

克：没有时间，没有心理时间。
54:13 K: Yes, no psychological time. 克：是的，没有心理时间。
54:14 B: Though we still have the watch. 博姆：尽管我们还有钟表时间。
54:16 K: Yes. Of course... We have gone beyond that, don’t let’s go back to it. 克：是的。当然 我们已经说过那个话题了，就不要再回去了。
54:19 B: But sometimes it’s the words are often confusing, they carry wrong meaning. 博姆；但是有时候 语言总是让人迷惑，它们承载着错误的含义。
54:25 K: Psychological time. There is no psychological time, no movement of thought. And is that emptiness the beginning of all movement? 克：心理时间。不存在心理时间， 没有思想活动。 而那种空无是不是所有运动的发端？
54:45 B: Would you say the emptiness is the ground then? 博姆：那么你会说那种空无就是那个基础吗？
54:47 K: That's what I am asking. Slowly, I am going... Let’s go slowly into it. Or shall we postpone this for another day? 克：那正是我在问的。慢慢来，我打算 我们慢慢来探讨。 还是说，我们推迟到改天再讨论？
54:55 B: Perhaps it should be gone into more carefully. 博姆：可能这个问题应该更加细致地探讨。
54:57 K: Right. We better stop. 克：好的。我们最好打住了。
55:15 B: Well, just one thing: in California we were saying that there is the emptiness and beyond that is the ground. 博姆：哦，还有一件事：在加州我们说到了 有这种空无，而超越它之外的是那个基础。
55:24 K: Quite, I know. I don’t want to enter into that. 克：没错，我知道。我现在不想进入那个话题。
55:26 B: We leave it go for the time.

K: I’ll leave it. When do we meet again?

B: It is two days, on Saturday. 		博姆：我们暂且不论。

克：我会留待下次。 我们什么时候再见面？

博姆：两天后，周六。
55:31 K: The day after tomorrow.

B: Yes. 		克：后天。

博姆：是的。
55:38 K: Right, sir. 克：好的，先生。