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OJBR80CB14 - 宇宙中的心
与大卫▪博姆的第十四次对谈
1980年9月20日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:31 K: We talked the other day about a mind that is entirely free from all movement, from all the things that thought has put there, that thought has brought about, has experienced in the past, the future and so on. But before we go into that, I would like to ask what is materialism? Man is caught in this materialistic attitude and values and experiences. What is the nature of materialism? 克：我们那天谈到了 一颗心彻底摆脱了一切运动， 摆脱了思想堆砌的一切事物， 摆脱了思想带来的、 在过去、未来经历的一切，等等。 但是在我们探讨这个问题之前， 我想问问什么是唯物主义？ 人类被困在了这种唯物主义的态度、 价值观和经验中。 唯物主义的本质是什么？
1:23 B: First of all materialism is the name of a certain philosophical point of view. 博姆：首先唯物主义是 某种哲学观念的名称。
1:28 K: I don’t mean that. I don’t mean certain philosophical... sayings... 克：我说的不是那个。 我说的不是某种哲学上的……说法
1:37 B: The belief that matter is all there is. 博姆：那是一种信念，认为世上存在的只有物质。
1:41 K: I want to go into that a little bit. That is, all nature, all human beings react, physically. This reaction is sustained by thought. And thought is a material process. So reaction – as in tree, in nature, in animals, in human beings – is the materialistic response. 克：我想稍稍探讨一下这个问题。 也就是说，整个自然，所有的人类都是从物质层面作出反应的。 这种反应是由思想维系的。 而思想是个物质过程。 所以反应——发生在树木、自然、动物、人类身上的—— 都是唯物的反应。
2:17 B: The word materialistic is not quite right. It is the response of matter, you see. 博姆：“唯物”这个词不太恰当。 那是物质的反应，你知道。
2:24 K: Response of matter, let’s put it that way. All right. The response of matter. That’s better. Let me repeat it again, let’s be clear. We are talking about having an empty mind and we have come to that point, when the wall has been broken down and this emptiness... – what lies beyond it, or through it, we'll come to that – but before we begin with that, as I said: is all reaction matter? 克：物质的反应，我们先这么说。好的。 物质的反应，这样好一些。 我再来讲一遍，我们来把它表达清楚。 我们说到了拥有一颗空无的心， 而且我们已经来到了这一步： 墙已经被打破，而这种空无 有什么是超越了它或者穿越了它的， 我们会谈到那个，但是在我们开始之前， 就像我刚才说的：所有的反应都是物质吗？
3:13 B: Matter in movement.

K: Matter in movement. 		博姆：运动中的物质。

克：运动中的物质。
3:16 B: That is the suggestion. You could say there is a lot of evidence in favour of that, that science has found a tremendous number of reactions which are due to the nerves. 博姆：就是这个意思。 你可以说有很多证据是支持这一点的， 科学已经发现有海量的反应 都可以归因于神经。
3:28 K: Yes, all that. So would you call matter and movement the reactions which exist in all organic matter? 克：是的，所有那些。所以你会不会认为物质和运动是 存在于一切有机物质中的反应？
3:41 B: Yes, it is necessary. All matter, as we know it, goes by the law of action and reaction. Every action has a corresponding reaction. 博姆：是的，那是必要的。所有物质，据我们所知， 都遵循作用与反作用的规律。 每个作用都有一个相应的反作用。
3:51 K: So action, reaction and reaction is a material process, – as thought is. Now, to go beyond it is the question, that is the point. 克：所以作用，反作用，而反应是一个物质过程， 就跟思想一样。 那么，超越它就是问题所在、重点所在了。
4:07 B: Yes. Some people might say it has no meaning to go beyond it, that would be the philosophy of materialism, the belief that there is no meaning to go beyond it. 博姆：是的。有些人会说超越它没有意义， 这就是唯物主义哲学， 相信超越它没什么意义。
4:19 K: Quite right. But if one is merely living in that area it is very shallow, right? It has really no meaning at all. But if one recognises thought as a material process, and reaction and action is matter and movement. 克：没错。但是如果一个人只活在那个领域当中， 那是非常肤浅的，对吗？那真的毫无意义。 但是如果一个人认识到思想是一个物质过程， 作用和反作用也只是物质和运动。
4:46 B: Yes. Perhaps one should say what some people have said: matter is not merely action-reaction but it may have a creative movement, so that matter may create new forms. 博姆：是的。可能一个人会说 有些人曾经说过的话：物质不只是作用-反作用， 而是它可能还有一种创造性的活动， 所以物质也许可以创造出新的形式。
5:00 K: Matter may create new forms, but it is still within that area. 克：物质可以创造出新形式， 但那依然在那个范畴之内。
5:05 B: Yes. Let’s try to make it clear what is the difference. There are very subtle forms of materialism which might be difficult to pin down . 博姆：是的。我们来试着说清楚区别在哪。 唯物主义有一些非常微妙的形式， 可能很难确切定位。
5:18 K: Let’s begin. Would you consider, or agree, or see that thought is a material process. 克：我们来开始吧。你会不会考虑、同意或者认为 思想是一个物质过程。
5:29 B: Yes. Though some people might argue that it is both material and something beyond material. 博姆：是的。尽管有些人可能会认为它既是物质的 又是某种超越物质的东西。
5:34 K: I know. I have discussed this. But it is not! 克：我知道。我探讨过这个了。但它不是！
5:39 B: How can we say that simply to make it clear? 博姆：我们怎么能把这一点简单地说清楚呢？
5:42 K: Any movement of thought is a material process, whether you assert it is beyond. 克：思想的任何活动都是一个物质过程， 无论你是否坚称它不止于此。
5:50 B: Well, we have to make it clear so that it's not a matter of authority. From observation, one sees that thought is a material process, now, how would one see that? 博姆：哦，我们得把这点说清楚，这样才不会成为权威。 从观察中一个人可以发现 思想是一个物质过程，那么，如何看到这一点呢？
6:04 K: How would one be aware of all that? Aware that it is a material process. I think that is fairly clear. There is an experience, an incident, recorded, which becomes knowledge, from that knowledge thought arises and action takes place. 克：一个人如何才能觉察到这一切？ 觉察到它是一个物质过程。 我认为这很清楚。发生了一次经验、 一个事件，被记录下来，它就变成了知识， 从那个知识当中就产生了思想，然后行动发生了。
6:29 B: Yes. So we say that thought is that. 博姆：是的。所以我们说思想就是那个。
6:34 K: Any assertion that it is beyond is still thought! 克：任何对它不止于此的断言依然还是思想！
6:38 B: It is still coming from the background. So, something new coming into there is not part of this process, is that what you are saying? 博姆：依然来自于那个背景。 所以，有某种新东西进来， 它不是这个过程的一部分，你说的是这个意思吗？
6:52 K: Yes. If there is to be something new thought as a material process must end. Obviously. 克：是的。如果要有新东西出现， 思想这个物质过程就必须终止。显然如此。
6:59 B: It may take it up later. 博姆：它可以稍后再用到思想。
7:01 K: Yes. We’ll see what happens later. So could we say, all reaction and action – action from that reaction – is movement of matter? 克：是的。看看后面会发生什么。 所以，我们能不能说，所有的反应和行动， 来自于反应的行动都是物质运动？
7:15 B: Yes, very subtle movement of matter. 博姆：是的，非常微妙的物质运动。
7:18 K: Yes, very subtle movement of matter. So as long as one’s mind is within that area it must be a movement of matter. 克：是的，非常微妙的物质运动。 所以，只要一个人的心在那个领域之内， 它就必然是一种物质运动。
7:35 B: Let’s proceed from there then. 博姆：让我们从这里再往前走。
7:40 K: So is it possible for the mind to go beyond reaction? That is the next step, obviously. As we said yesterday morning in our discussion with the group, one gets irritated, and that is first reaction. Then the reaction to that, second reaction to that ‘I must not’. Then the third reaction, ‘I must control’ – or justify or whatever it is. So it is constantly action and reaction. Can one see it is a movement, a continuous movement without an ending? 克：那么，心有没有可能超越反应？ 显然，这就是下一步。 如我们昨天上午 在小组讨论中所说的， 一个人被惹恼，这是第一个反应。 然后有了对它的反应，对它的第二个反应 ——我一定不能。 然后又有了第三个反应，我必须控制或者辩解 或者无论怎样。所以行动和反应接连不断。 一个人能不能看到这是一种运动， 一种没完没了的持续运动？
8:47 B: Yes. The reaction actually is continuous but it seems at a certain moment to have ended and the next moment appears to be a new moment. 博姆：是的。反应实际上是接连不断的， 但是似乎到了某一刻就停下了，然后 下一刻看起来就是新的一刻了。
9:00 K: But it is still reaction. 克：但那依然是反应。
9:01 B: But it presents itself as different. It is always the same... 博姆：但它表现出来是不同的。它一直是老样子
9:06 K: It is exactly the same always. 克：它一直是原封不动的。
9:08 B: ...but it presents itself as always different. Always new. 博姆：……但是它总是表现得自己不一样了。总是新的。
9:11 K: That is just it. You say something, I get irritated, but that irritation is a reaction. 克：就是这样。你说了些什么，我被惹恼了， 但那种恼怒是一个反应。
9:19 B: Yes, it seems to be something suddenly new. 博姆：是的，它看起来是某种突然出现的新东西。
9:22 K: But it is not. 克：可它不是。
9:24 B: But one has to be aware of that. 博姆：但一个人得觉察到这一点才行。
9:28 K: Of course. 克：当然。
9:30 B: Generally the mind tends not to be aware of it. 博姆：心通常倾向于觉察不到这一点。
9:33 K: But after discussing a great deal and talking, one can. 克：但是讨论了很多也谈过了之后，一个人是可以的。
9:37 B: We are attentive to it. 博姆：我们对它是关注的。
9:39 K: We are sensitive and alert to the question. So there is an ending to reaction if one is watchful, attentive, understand – not only logically but have an insight into this reacting process all the time, it can of course come to an end. That is why it is very important to understand this, before we discuss what is an empty mind, if there is something beyond, or in that very empty mind there is some other quality. 克：我们对这个问题很敏感、很警觉。 所以，反应就终止了，如果一个人是警觉的、 关注的，不只是从逻辑上理解了，而且有了 对这个不断发生的反应过程的洞察， 它当然可以终结。 这就是为什么懂得这一点 很重要，然后我们才能探讨 空无的心是什么，有没有什么超越之物， 或者在那颗空无的心中有什么别的品质。
10:21 So is that empty mind a reaction? You follow sir? Reaction to the problems of pain and pleasure and suffering, and the reaction to that is to escape from all this into some state of... nothingness. 那么，那颗空无的心是一种反应吗？你明白吗，先生？ 对痛苦、快乐和苦难这些问题的反应， 对那些的反应是对那一切的逃避， 逃到某种……虚无状态中去。
10:49 B: Yes, the mind can always do that, it can fail to notice pain and pleasure. 博姆：是的，心可以一直这么做， 它会注意不到痛苦和快乐。
10:57 K: That becomes an illusion. Now, we went into the question of illusions and said desire is the beginning of illusion. Now, we have come to the point that this quality of emptiness is not a reaction. That must be absolutely sure. Right? Now before we go further: is that possible to have a mind that is really completely empty of all the things that thought has put together? 克：那就变成了一个幻觉。 现在，我们探讨过了幻觉的问题， 然后说了欲望就是幻觉的开始。 现在，我们来到了这一步： 这种空无的品质不是一个反应。 这一点必须极其明确。对吗？ 那么，在我们进一步探讨之前： 有没有可能拥有一颗真的彻底清空了 思想拼凑的一切的心？
11:45 B: When thought ceases to react.

K: That’s it. 		博姆：当思想停止了反应。

克：就是这样。
11:51 B: Thought being a material process, on one hand you could say that perhaps the reaction is due to the nature of matter which is continually reacting and moving – but then is matter affected by this insight? 博姆：思想是一个物质过程，一方面 你可以说也许反应可以归因于 物质的本性，它不停地反应和活动， 但是物质会被这种洞察所影响吗？
12:10 K: I don’t quite follow. Ah, I understand. Does insight affect the cells of the brain which contain the memories? 克：我不太明白。啊，我明白了。 洞察会不会 影响装载者记忆的脑细胞？
12:24 B: Yes. The memories are continually reacting, moving, as does the air and the water, everything around us. Now, if nothing happened, why would it ever stop? 博姆：是的。记忆一直地不停地反应、活动， 就像空气、水、我们周围的一切一样。 那么，如果什么事都没发生，它怎么会停下呢？
12:37 K: Quite. After all, physically if I don’t react I am paralysed. But to be reacting continuously is also a form of paralysis. 克：没错。毕竟，如果我身体上不作反应， 我就瘫痪了。 但是不停地反应也是一种形式的瘫痪。
12:54 B: The wrong kind of reaction, reaction around the psychological structure. 博姆：那种错误的反应， 围绕心理结构的反应。
12:59 K: We are talking psychologically. Always. 克：我们说的是心理上。一直都是。
13:01 B: But if the reaction around the psychological structure has begun in mankind, why should it ever stop, as one reaction makes another...

K: Like a chain, endless. 		博姆：但是如果围绕着心理结构的反应 在人类身上开始了，它怎么可能会停下， 因为一个反应会制造另一个……

克：就像连锁反应，没完没了。
13:13 B: We're expected to go on for ever unless something will stop it. 博姆：我们估计要永远这样下去了，除非有什么东西能让它停下。
13:17 K: Nothing will stop it. Only the insight into the nature of reaction ends psychological reaction. 克：什么都不会让它停下。 只有对于反应本质的洞察 才能终止心理反应。
13:31 B: You are saying that matter is affected by insight, which is beyond matter. 博姆：你是说物质被洞察所影响， 而洞察是超越物质之外的。
13:38 K: That’s what we discussed also in Ojai.

B: Yes. 		克：这也是我们在欧亥探讨过的。

博姆：是的。
13:45 K: So, is this emptiness within the brain itself, or something thought has conceived as being empty? One must be very clear on this. 克：所以，这种空无是大脑本身内部的吗， 还是说，它是思想设想成空无的一种东西？ 一个人必须对这点非常清楚。
14:07 B: Yes. But whatever is discussed thought begins to want to do something about it thought feels it can always make a contribution. That might be useful. So thought, in the past, didn't understand that there are areas where it has no useful contribution to make, but it keeps on in the habit of trying to say emptiness is very good, therefore thought says I will try to help bring about emptiness. Thought is trying to be helpful. 博姆：是的。但是无论讨论什么， 思想都会开始想要对它做些什么， 思想觉得自己总是能够有所贡献。 “那可能有用。”所以，思想过去不明白 还有一些领域它是完全无法做出有益贡献的， 但是它继续保持着这个习惯，想着说 空无真不错，所以思想说 我要努力帮助实现空无。 思想试图有所帮助。
14:43 K: We have been through all that! We have seen the nature of thought, what is its movement, time, we've been through all that. I have come to a point: is this emptiness within the mind itself, or beyond it? 克：这些我们都探讨过了！ 我们已经看到了思想的本质， 它有什么活动，时间，这些我们都探讨过了。 我已经来到了这一步： 这种空无是心灵本身之中的，还是超越其外的？
15:13 B: What do you mean by the mind, you see. 博姆：你说的“心灵”是什么意思，你瞧。
15:15 K: The mind being the whole, emotions, thought, consciousness, the brain, the whole of that is the mind. 克：心灵指的是这个整体， 感情、思想、意识、大脑， 这个整体就是心灵。
15:27 B: The word mind has been used in many ways. Now you are using it in a certain way, it represents thought, feeling, desire and will – the whole material process. 博姆：“心灵”这个词有很多用法。 现在你给了它某种用法， 它指代的是思想、感受、欲望和意志力， 这整个物质过程。
15:37 K: Yes, the whole material process. 克：是的，这整个物质过程。
15:38 B: Which people have called non-material. 博姆：而人们称之为非物质过程。
15:42 K: Quite. The mind is the whole material process. 克：没错。心灵就是这整个物质过程。
15:49 B: Which is going on in the brain and the nerves. 博姆：它发生在大脑和神经当中。
15:51 K: The whole of it. The whole structure. One can see this materialistic reaction can end. And the next question I am asking is: is that emptiness within or without? Without in the sense, elsewhere.

B: Where would it be? 		克：这个整体，这整个结构。 一个人可以看到这种物质反应是可以终止的。 那么接下来我要问的问题就是： 这种空无是在之内的还是之外的？ “之外”的意思是在别处。

博姆：它会在哪里呢？
16:21 K: I don’t think it would be elsewhere, I am just putting it. 克：我不认为它会在别处，我只是这么说。
16:28 B: Any such thing is part of the material process. Here and there are distinctions made within the material process. 博姆：任何这种东西都是物质过程的一部分。 这里和那里是物质过程内部进行的区分。
16:35 K: That's right, that's what I wanted to get at. It is there, it is in the mind itself. Not outside it. Right? Now what is the next step? Does that emptiness contain nothing, not a thing? 克：没错，这就是我想说明的。 它就在那里，在心灵本身之中。不在它外面，对吗？ 然后下一步呢？ 那种空无是不是什么都不包含，空无一物？
17:07 B: Thing meaning anything which has form, structure and stability. 博姆：“物”的意思是任何具有形式、结构和稳定性的东西。
17:12 K: Yes. Form, structure, reaction, naturally. 克：是的。形式、结构、反应，那当然。
17:15 B: Yes, stability and reaction. 博姆：是的，稳定性和反应。
17:20 K: Form, structure, capacity, reaction – all that. Or it contains none of that. Then what is it? Is it then total energy? 克：形式，结构，能力，反应，诸如此类。 还是说，它完全不包含其中任何一个。那它是什么呢？ 那它是不是完整的能量？
17:45 B: Yes, movement of energy. 博姆：是的，能量的运动。
17:47 K: Movement of energy. It is not movement of reaction. 克：能量的运动。它不是反应的运动。
17:50 B: It is not movement of things reacting to each other. The world is made up of a large number of things which react to each other, that's one kind of movement. But we are saying it is a different kind of movement. 博姆：它不是互相起反应的东西的运动。 这个世界就是由大量 互相起反应的东西组成的，这是一种运动。 但我们说那是一种不同的运动。
18:05 K: It is entirely different.

B: Which has no thing in it. 		克：它截然不同。

博姆：它里面空无一物。
18:08 K: No thing in it and therefore not of time – right? Is that possible? Or are we just indulging in imagination? Indulging in some kind of romantic, hopeful, pleasurable sensation? I don’t think we are, because we have been through all that, step by step, right up to this point. So we are not deceiving ourselves. Now we say that emptiness has no centre – right? – as the ‘me’ and all the reactions. In that emptiness there is a movement of timeless energy. 克：它里边空无一物，因此不属于时间，对吗？ 那可能吗？还是说，我们只是沉浸在了想象中？ 沉浸在了某种浪漫的、有希望的、 愉快的感受中？我不认为是这样， 因为我们已经走过了那一切，一步一步地 来到了这个点上。 所以我们不是在欺骗自己。 现在我们说那种空无没有中心，对吗？ 没有“我”以及所有的反应。 在那种空无中，有一种超越了时间的能量运动。
19:04 B: Yes, when you say timeless energy... We have said already that thought and time are the same. Then you're saying that time can only come into a material process. 博姆：是的，当你说到超越时间的能量 我们已经说过了 思想和时间是一回事。 然后你说时间只会进入物质过程当中。
19:22 K: Time can only come into a material process, that’s right. 克：时间只会进入物质过程当中，没错。
19:27 B: Now if we have an energy that is timeless but nevertheless moving... 博姆：现在，如果我们有了一种超越时间的能量， 但它还是在运动着的
19:32 K: Yes, it is not static! 克：是的，它不是静态的！
19:34 B: It's flowing, it’s moving.

K: It's moving. 		博姆：它是流动的，运动着的。

克：它是运动着的。
19:39 B: Now, what is the movement? 博姆：那么，那种运动是什么呢？
19:45 K: Sir, what is movement? From here to there. 克：先生，运动是什么？从这里到那里。
19:49 B: That is one form. 博姆：那是一种形式。
19:52 K: Or from yesterday to today, and from today to tomorrow, another movement. 克：或者从昨天到今天， 从今天到明天，另一种运动。
20:02 B: Yes, there are various kinds of movement. 博姆：是的，有各种各样的运动。
20:05 K: So what is movement? Is there a movement – I want to question it – is there a movement which is not moving? You understand? Is there a movement which has no beginning and no end? Because thought has a beginning and an end. 克：所以运动是什么？有没有一种运动 ——我想质疑一下——有没有一种运动 是不动的？你明白吗？ 有没有一种运动 没有起点也没有终点？ 因为思想有起点和终点。
20:39 B: Except we could say that the movement of matter might have no beginning and no end – the reactive movement. you are not talking of that?

K: No, I am not talking of that. 		博姆：除了我们可以说物质运动 可能没有起点也没有终点——反应型的运动。 你说的不是这个吧？

克：不是，我说的不是那个。
20:47 B: So it is not enough to say it has no beginning and no end – right? 博姆：所以说它没有起点也没有终点是不够的，对吗？
20:52 K: We must go back then to the other. Thought has a beginning and thought has an ending. There is a movement of matter as reaction and the ending of that reaction. 克：我们必须回过头去，然后再说另一个。 思想有个起点，思想也有个终点。 有一种物质运动，那就是反应 然后那种反应的结束。
21:12 B: Yes, in the brain.

K: In the brain. There are these various kinds of movements. That's all we know. Someone comes along and says there is a totally different kind of movement. But to understand that I must be free of the movement of thought, material process, the movement of time, to understand a movement that is not... 		博姆：是的，在大脑中。

克：在大脑中。 有这些各式各样的活动。 我们只知道这个。 有个人过来说还有一种 截然不同的运动。 但是要了解那个，我就必须摆脱 思想运动、物质过程、时间的运动， 才能了解那种运动，它不是
21:54 B: There are two things: it has no beginning and no end but also it is not determined as a series of successions from the past.

K: No causation. 		博姆：有两件事：它无始也无终， 而且它不是由一系列来自于过去的 连续活动决定的。

克：没有因果。
22:04 B: Not a series of causes, one following the other. Matter can be looked at as a series of causes, – though it may not be adequate.

K: Yes, I understand. 		博姆：不是一系列的原因，一个跟着另一个。 物质可以被看作是一系列的因果， 尽管这么说可能不太恰当。

克：是的，我明白。
22:13 B: Now we're saying this movement has no beginning and no end, it is not the result of a series of causes, one following another without end, right? 博姆：现在我们说这种运动无始无终， 它不是一系列原因的结果， 一个跟着一个，没完没了，对吗？
22:27 K: I want to understand – verbally even – a movement that is not a movement. I don’t know if I am making... 克：我想了解——哪怕是从字面上—— 一种并非运动的运动。 我不知道我有没有说清楚
22:44 B: Why is it called a movement if it is not a movement? 博姆：如果它不是一种运动，那为什么还叫它运动呢？
22:50 K: Because it is not still, it is active, it is dynamic. 克：因为它不是静止的，它是活跃的，动态的。
22:59 B: It is energy. 博姆：它是能量。
23:01 K: Tremendous! Therefore it can never be still. 克：巨大无比！所以它绝不会是静止的。 但是那种能量中有一种寂静。我有没有
23:14 B: Yes, the energy itself... The ordinary language does not convey it properly but the energy itself is still and also moving – is that what you’re saying? 博姆：是的，这种能量本身 常规的语言无法贴切地传达， 但是那种能量本身是安静的，同时也是运动着的 ——这是你说的意思吗？
23:32 K: Yes, but in that movement it is a movement of stillness. Does it sound crazy? 克：是的，但是在那种运动中那是一种安静的运动。 这听起来是不是很疯狂？
23:39 B: The movement can be said to emerge from stillness and fall back into stillness.

K: That’s right! You see that is what it is sir. We said this emptiness is in the mind. That emptiness has no cause and no effect. It is not a movement of causation. It is not a movement of thought, time. It is not a movement of material reactions, none of that. Which means: is the mind capable of that extraordinary stillness without any movement? And when it is so completely still there is a movement out of it. It sounds crazy. 		博姆：可以说这种运动产生于寂静， 又归于寂静。

克：没错！ 你瞧就是这样，先生。 我们说过这种空无是在心灵之中的。 这种空无没有原因也没有结果。 它不是一种因果运动。 它不是一种思想、时间的活动。它不是一种 物质反应的运动，统统不是。 也就是说：心能否拥有那种 没有丝毫运动的非同寻常的寂静？ 当它是如此彻底地安静， 从中就有了一种运动。这听起来很疯狂。
24:47 B: It needn’t sound crazy. In fact I think I mentioned before that some people have had this notion in the past, such as Aristotle – we discussed it. He talked about the unmoved mover, that is the way he tried to describe God. 博姆：不一定听起来很疯狂。事实上，我想 我以前提到过过去曾经有些人有过 这种想法，比如亚里士多德——我们讨论过。 他说到了不动的行动者， 这是他试图描述上帝的说法。

克：上帝，不，我不是在描述
25:06 B: You don’t want to describe God but some sort of notion similar to this has been held in the past by various people but since then, it has gone out of fashion. 博姆：你不想描述上帝，但是有某种 跟这个类似的概念过去曾经被各种不同的人持有过， 但是从那时起，它就已经不流行了。
25:17 K: Let’s bring it into fashion, shall we? 克：我们再让它流行起来，好吗？
25:22 B: I am not saying that Aristotle had the right idea, merely that he was considering something somewhat similar... 博姆：我不是说亚里士多德的想法是正确的， 而只是他考虑到了 某种有些相似的东西
25:30 K: Was it an intellectual concept or an actuality? 克：那是一个智力上的概念还是一个事实？
25:35 B: This is very hard to tell because so little... 博姆：那就很难判断了，因为太少
25:38 K: Therefore we don’t have to bring in Aristotle. 克：所以我们不必把亚里士多德扯进来。
25:40 B: I wanted to point out that it wasn’t crazy because other very respectable people have had something similar. 博姆：我是想指出那个说法并不疯狂， 因为另一些很受尊敬的人 有过类似的说法。
25:50 K: I am glad to be assured I am not crazy! 克：我很高兴被确认为不是疯子！
25:53 B: Because you did ask if it was crazy, you see. 博姆：因为你确实问了那个说法是不是疯狂，你瞧。
26:14 K: And is that movement out of stillness... is that the movement of creation? Not the creation which the artists, the poets and the writers and the painters call creation – to me that is not creation, just a capacity, skill, memory, knowledge operating there. Here I think this creation is not expressed in form. 克：那种运动是不是出自于寂静 那是不是创造的运动？ 不是艺术家、诗人、作家 和画家所谓的创造，在我看来那不是创造， 那只是一种在那里运作的能力、技巧、记忆、知识。 这里我认为这种创造不会被表现在形式中。
27:00 B: Yes, that is important. Usually we think creation is expressed as form or as structure. Now, then this is difficult, what does it mean? 博姆：是的，这很重要。通常我们认为 创造会表现为某种形式或者结构。 那么，这就很难理解了，那是什么意思呢？
27:14 K: We have gone beyond being crazy so we can go on. Would you say, this movement, not being of time, is eternally new? 克：我们已经不属于疯狂了，所以我们可以继续往前走了。 你会不会说，这种运动，它不属于时间， 它是永远新鲜的？
27:43 B: Yes. It is eternally new in the sense that the creation is eternally new, right? 博姆：是的。它是永远新鲜，指的是 创造永远是新鲜的，对吗？
27:49 K: Creation is eternally new. I think that is what the artists are trying to find out. 克：创造永远是新鲜的。 我想这就是艺术家们试图发现的。
27:56 B: Yes, that’s true. 博姆：是的，没错。
27:59 K: Therefore they indulge in all kinds of various absurdities. But to come to that point when the mind is absolutely, completely silent, out of that silence there is this movement which is always new, eternally new. And the moment when that movement is expressed... 克：于是他们沉溺在各式各样五花八门的荒唐事里边。 但是走到了那一步，那时心灵是 彻底地、完全安静的，从那种寂静之中就有了 这种恒久常新、永远新鲜的运动。 而一旦这种运动被表达出来
28:32 B: The first expression is in thought – right? 博姆：首先会表达在思想中，对吗？
28:35 K: That is just it! 克：就是这样！
28:36 B: And that may be useful but then it gets fixed. Then it may become a barrier. 博姆：而那可能是有用的，但然后它就固化了。 然后它就可能会变成一个障碍。
28:46 K: I was told once by an Indian philosopher, an Indian scholar, that before they began to sculpture a head of a god, or whatever it is, they had to have deep meditation, go into deep meditation. At the right moment they took up the hammer and the chisel. 克：有一次一个印度哲学家、一个印度学者告诉我说， 在他们开始雕刻 一尊上帝的头像或者无论什么之前， 他们得进行深深的冥想，进入深层的冥想。 到恰当的时刻，他们再拿起锤子和凿子。
29:17 B: To have it come out of the emptiness. Another point. The Australian aborigines draw figures in the sand, so they don’t have permanency. 博姆：让它从空无中诞生。 还有另一个例子。澳大利亚土著 在沙子上作画，所以它们就不会持久。
29:28 K: That is right! 克：没错！
29:30 B: If thought could be looked at that way. The marble is already too static, it stays there for thousands of years. So although the original sculptor may have understood the people who follow see it as a fixed form. 博姆：如果思想能够被那样看待就好了。 大理石已经太凝滞了，它可以在那里待上几千年。 所以尽管最初的雕塑家也许是明白的， 但后人会把它当作固定的形式看待。
29:57 K: So, what relationship has all that to my daily life? In what way does that act through my action, through my ordinary physical responses? There are no psychological responses, because I... but there are physical responses, to noise, to pain, to various forms of disturbances, physical disturbances. What relationship has the physical to that silent movement? 克：那么，这一切与我的日常生活有什么关系呢？ 它以何种方式作用于我的行动， 作用于我日常的身体反应？ 没有了心理反应，因为我 但是有身体反应，对于噪音，对于疼痛， 对于各种形式的干扰，身体上的干扰。 身体方面和那种安静的运动有什么关系？
30:51 B: Yes, well in so far as the mind is silent then the thought is orderly. 博姆：是的，既然心灵是安静的， 那么思想就是有序的。
30:57 K: Yes, it is orderly. Ah, we're getting on to something! Would you say that silent movement with its unending newness, is total order of the universe? 克：是的，它是有序的。啊，我们领会到了某些东西！ 你会不会说那种安静的运动 连同它永不终结的新鲜就是绝对的宇宙秩序？
31:26 B: Yes, we could consider that the order of the universe emerges from this silence and emptiness and is continually created, constantly. 博姆：是的，我们可以认为宇宙的秩序 产生于这种寂静和空无， 它一直不停地被创造出来。
31:39 K: So, what is the relationship of this mind to the universe? 克：所以，这颗心跟宇宙是什么关系？
31:42 B: That particular mind?

K: No, mind. 		博姆：个别心吗？

克：不，心灵。
31:45 B: Mind in general. 博姆：总体心。
31:47 K: No, mind. The general and the particular we went through, and beyond that, there is the mind. 克：不，心灵。总体和个别的心灵我们都探讨过了， 也超越了，然后就有了心灵。
31:53 B: Well would you say that is universal? 博姆：哦，你会说它是普世心吗？
31:55 K: That’s the universal mind. That universal mind – I don’t like to use the word ‘universal’. 克：那就是普世心。 那个普世心——我不喜欢用“普世”这个词。
32:04 B: In the sense, that which is beyond the particular and general would usually be called the universal. But may be the word is difficult. 博姆：意思是，那个超越了个别和总体的事物 通常会被称为普世的。 但是也许这个词有些难懂。
32:15 K: Can we find a different word? Global, no. A mind that is beyond particular... No. Mind. 克：我们可以找到另外一个词吗？全球的，不行。 超越了个别的心……不。心灵。
32:25 B: You could say it is the source, the essence. It has been called the absolute. 博姆：你可以说它就是那个源头，那个精髓。 它曾被叫做“绝对之物”。
32:38 K: I don’t want to use that word ‘absolute’ either. 克：我也不想用“绝对”这个词。
32:41 B: No. But in the sense – the absolute literally means that which is free of all limitation, of all dependence, right? 博姆：好的。但是“绝对之物”字面上的意思就是 摆脱了所有局限、所有依赖的东西，对吗？
32:51 K: All right, if you agree that absolute means freedom from all dependence, from all limitation. 克：好吧，如果你同意“绝对”就意味着摆脱了 所有依赖、所有局限的自由。
33:01 B: From all relationship. 博姆：摆脱了所有关系。
33:03 K: We'll use that, all right.

B: It has unfortunate connotations. 		克：我们就用这个，好的。

博姆：它具有一些比较尴尬的含义。
33:08 K: Let’s use that word for the moment for convenience in our dialogue. There is this absolute stillness and in that stillness or from that stillness there is a movement and that movement is everlastingly new. And what is the relationship of that mind to the universe? 克：我们暂且先用这个词，为了对话的便利起见。 有了这种绝对的寂静，在那种寂静里 或者从那种寂静中就有了一种运动， 那种运动是恒久常新的。 而这颗心跟宇宙有什么关系？
33:44 B: To the universe of matter? 博姆：与物质宇宙吗？
33:46 K: Yes, universe, the whole universe. Matter, trees, nature, man, heavens. 克：是的，宇宙，整个宇宙。 物质，树木，自然，人类，天空。
33:56 B: That is an interesting question. 博姆：这是一个很有趣的问题。
34:01 K: That is in order, the universe is in order, whether it is destructive or constructive, it is still order. 克：它是有序的，宇宙是有序的， 无论是破坏性的还是建设性的，那依然是秩序。
34:09 B: Well, it is necessary order. The order has the character of being absolutely necessary. In the sense it cannot be otherwise. The order that we usually know is not absolutely necessary, it could be changed, it could depend on something else. Any ordinary order is contingent, it depends on something. 博姆：哦，那是必要的秩序。秩序 具有绝对的必要性这种特征。 也就是说没有别的可能。 我们通常所知的秩序并不是绝对必要的， 它可以被改变，它可能依赖于别的东西。 任何通常的秩序都是视情况而定的，是取决于某些东西的。
34:33 K: The eruption of a volcano is order! 克：火山爆发就是秩序！
34:36 B: It is order of the whole universe, it is necessary considering the whole universe, it cannot be otherwise. 博姆：那是整个宇宙的秩序，那是必要的， 就整个宇宙而言，不可能是别的样子。
34:43 K: Quite. Now, in the universe there is order and this mind which is still, is completely in order. 克：没错。那么，宇宙中有秩序， 而这颗寂静的心也是彻底有序的。
34:57 B: The deep mind, the absolute. 博姆：深刻的、绝对的心。
34:59 K: The absolute mind. Then, is this mind the universe? 克：绝对的心。那么，这颗心就是宇宙吗？
35:07 B: In what sense is that the universe? We have to understand what it means to say that. 博姆：为什么说它就是宇宙？ 我们必须明白这么说是什么意思。
35:23 K: Or is there a division, between this absolute mind and the universe? Or both are the same. That is what I want to get at. 克：还是说，有一种区分 存在于这颗绝对的心和宇宙之间？ 还是说，两个是一回事。这就是我想说的意思。
35:41 B: That is, we have either duality of mind and matter, or they are both the same.

K: That’s it. Is that presumptuous? 		博姆：也就是说，我们要么觉得心灵和物质是二元分化的， 要么它们两个是一回事。

克：就是这样。 这个说法太冒昧了吗？
35:54 B: Not necessarily, no. These are just two possibilities. 博姆：不一定，不是的。这只是两种可能性而已。
35:57 K: I want to be quite sure we are not treading upon something which really needs very, very subtle great care, you know what I mean? 克：我想十分确定我们并没有践踏在 某个真的需要非常小心翼翼来对待的东西上面， 你明白我的意思吗？
36:15 B: If we go back to the body, we have said the body is physical, it is material. 博姆：如果我们回到身体上来， 我们说了身体是生理层面的，它是物质的 。 我们也说过身体里的心灵
36:26 K: General and the particular. 克：总体的和个别的。
36:28 B: All thought, feeling, desire, will, general and particular, are part of that material process, not different from the body. 博姆：所有的思想、感情、欲望、意志力，总体的和个别的， 都是那个物质过程的一部分，和身体没什么两样。
36:36 K: All the reactions are material processes. 克：所有的反应都是物质过程。
36:39 B: Therefore what we usually call the mind is not different from what we usually call the body. Now you make this much greater in saying: consider the whole universe. And we say, what we call mind in that universe, is it different from what we call the universe itself and matter? 博姆：因此我们通常所说的心灵 与我们通常所说的身体没什么两样。 现在你的说法就把这个问题扩大了很多：把整个宇宙考虑了进来。 而我们说，我们所说的那个宇宙中的心灵 它与我们所说的宇宙本身和物质是两回事吗？
36:59 K: That’s why I feel in our daily life there must be order, not the order of thought. 克：那就是为什么我觉得我们的日常生活中必须有秩序， 但不是思想的秩序。
37:09 B: Thought has a limited order, it is dependent, it is relative. 博姆：思想有一种有限的秩序，它是有依赖性的，它是相对的。
37:17 K: So an order that is... 克：所以那种秩序
37:21 B: That’s free of limitation.

K: Free of limitation. In my daily life I have to have that, no conflict whatsoever, no contradiction, no... all the rest of that. 		博姆：那是摆脱了局限的。

克：摆脱了局限。 在我的日常生活中，我必须拥有它， 无论如何都没有冲突， 没有矛盾，没有……诸如此类。
37:40 B: In the order of thought, when it is rational it is in order. Now, in contradiction, the order of thought has broken down, it has reached its limit. Thought works until it reaches a contradiction and that’s the limit. 博姆：在思想的秩序中，当它是理性的，它就是有序的。 而在矛盾中，思想的秩序就垮掉了， 它到达了自己的极限。 思想可以一直工作直到遇到一个冲突， 然后那就是极限了。
37:55 K: So if in my daily life there is complete order in wich there is no disturbance, what is the relationship of that order to the never ending order? Can that silent movement of order – of that extraordinary something – can that affect my daily life when I have deep inward psychological order? You understand? 克：所以，如果我的日常生活中 有彻底的秩序，当中没有干扰， 那种秩序跟那个永不终结的秩序 有什么关系？ 那个非同寻常之物的秩序下那种安静的运动， 能否影响我的日常生活，当我拥有了 深层的内在心理秩序？你明白吗？
38:33 B: Yes. We have said the volcano is a manifestation of the whole order of the universe. 博姆：明白。我们说了火山 是宇宙那种整体秩序的一种显现。
38:40 K: Absolutely. A tiger killing a deer. 克：绝对是的。还有老虎猎杀一头鹿。
38:43 B: The question is whether the human being in his daily life can be similar.

K: That’s it. If not, I don’t see what is the point of the other! 		博姆：问题是人类能否 在他的日常生活中有相似的情况。

克：就是这样。 如果不能，我就看不出那“另一个”有什么意义了！
38:54 B: It has no point to the human being.

K: That’s it. 		博姆：它对于人类来说没有意义。

克：就是这样。
38:58 B: Then you would fall back into the human being trying to make his own purpose out of himself, out of his thoughts. Some people would say who cares about the universe, all we care about is our own society, what we are doing. But then that falls down because it is full of contradiction. 博姆：然后你就会又落入到人类试图 从他自身、从他的思想中寻找自身意义的过程中。 有些人会说谁关心宇宙呢， 我们只关心我们自己的社会，我们在做的事。 但是然后那也失败了，因为其中充满了矛盾。
39:18 K: Obviously. It is only thought that says that. 克：显然。只有思想才会那么说。
39:28 So that universe, which is in total order, does affect my daily life. 所以那个宇宙，也就是彻底的秩序， 确实会影响我的日常生活。
39:36 B: Yes. Scientists might ask how, you see. People might say, 'I understand that the universe is constituted of matter, the laws of matter affect your daily life, but it is not so clear how it affects the mind – that there is this absolute mind which affects the daily life. 博姆：是的。 科学家们也许会问怎么影响，你瞧。 人们也许会说，“我明白宇宙 是由物质构成的，物质规律会影响你的日常生活， 但是不太清楚它是如何影响心灵的 ——存在这种绝对的心可以影响日常生活。
40:12 K: What is my daily life? A series of reactions and disorders, right? I am making it very brief. That is that. 克；我的日常生活是什么？ 一系列的反应和混乱，对吗？ 我在长话短说。就是这样。
40:26 B: Well, it is mostly that.

K: Mostly. 		博姆：嗯，基本上是这样。

克：基本上。
40:31 K: And thought is always struggling to bring order within that. And when it does that, it is still disorder. 思想总是努力想要在其中建立秩序。 而当它这么做的时候，那依然是失序。
40:42 B: Because thought is always limited by its own contradictions. 博姆：因为思想总是被它自身的矛盾所限制。
40:49 K: Thought is always creating desorder because it is itself limited. 克：思想总是在制造混乱，因为它本身是有限的。
40:54 B: And as soon as it tries to go beyond the limit, that is disorder. 博姆：只要它试图越过那个极限，那就是混乱。
40:57 K: That is disorder. Right. I have understood, I have gone into it, I have an insight into it, so I have a certain kind of order in my life. But that order is still limited. I recognise that, and as long as it is matter, living, this existence, I say it is limited. 克：那就是混乱，没错。 我懂得了，我探究了， 我洞察了这个问题， 所以我生活中有了某种秩序。 但是那种秩序依然是有限的。 我认识到了这一点，只要还是物质， 那么生活，这种生存，我说它就是局限的。
41:31 B: Some people would accept that and say why should you have more. 博姆：有些人会接受这一点，然后说为什么你要拥有更多。
41:36 K: Ah, I am not having more! 克：啊，我不是要拥有更多！
41:38 B: But, some people would say, I would be happy if we could bring this limited order. We have so much disorder now, if we could live in the ordinary material life with real order. 博姆：但是，有些人会说， 如果我们能建立这种有限的秩序，我就很开心了。 我们现在有太多的混乱了，只要我们可以在 普通的物质生活中拥有真正的秩序就好了。
41:52 K: I say, let’s do it! Of course that must be done. But in the very doing of it one has to realise it is limited. 克：我说，我们来这么做！当然必须这么做。 但是就在这么做的同时，一个人必须意识到它是有限的。
42:04 B: Yes, even the highest order you can produce is limited. 博姆：是的，即使是你所能建立的最高秩序也是有限的。
42:10 K: And the mind realises its limitation and says, let’s go beyond it. 克：而心认识到了自身的局限， 然后说，我们来超越它。
42:16 B: Why? People would say, why not be happy within those limits, continually extending them, saying we can discover new thoughts, new orders, the artists will discover new forms of art, the scientists new kind of sciences. 博姆：为什么？人们会说，为什么不开心地活在那些局限当中， 继续扩展它们，说我们可以 发现新思想，新秩序，艺术家们会发现 新的艺术形式，科学家们会发现新的科学类型。
42:34 K: But it is always limited!

B: Yes. We have to go slowly, some people would go this far and then say that is all that is possible. 		克：但那始终是有限的！

博姆：是的。我们得慢慢来， 有些人会走到这一步，然后说 那已经是最大的可能了。
42:45 K: Yes. 'I like the human condition, let’s accept it, and make the best of it.' 克：是的。“我喜欢人类的局限，我们来接受它， 然后物尽其用。”
42:50 B: They say, we could do much better than we are doing. 博姆：他们说，我们可以做得比我们现在做的好很多。
42:53 K: Yes, but it is still the human condition, a little reformed, a little better. 克：是的，但那依然是人类的局限， 改革一点，变好一点。
42:59 B: Some people would say enormously reformed. 博姆：有些人会说改革幅度非常大啊。
43:02 K: Yes, but it is still limited. 克：是的，但依然是有限的。
43:06 B: Yes. Well let’s try to make it clear because what is wrong with limitation? 博姆：是的。我们来尽量说清楚， 因为，局限有什么不好吗？
43:12 K: In that limitation there is no freedom, there is a limited freedom. 克：在那种局限中没有自由， 有的只是有限的自由。
43:17 B: Yes. So eventually we come to the boundary of our freedom. Something not known to us makes us react and this would therefore inevitably fail because through reaction we would fall back into contradiction. 博姆：是的。所以最后我们来到了我们自由的边界。 某种我们所不知道的东西让我们作出反应， 而这种自由进而会不可避免地失效，因为 有了反应我们就会退回到冲突当中去。
43:34 K: Yes, but when I see that I am always moving within a certain area... 克：是的，但是当我看到我一直在 某个范围内活动
43:41 B: Therefore I am under the control of the forces. 博姆：所以我就处在了那些力量的控制之下。
43:44 K: Forces and the limited. The mind inevitably rebels against that. 克：那些力量和局限的东西。 心必然会反抗它。
43:51 B: That is an important point. The mind wants freedom, right? 博姆：这是很重要的一点。心想要自由，对吗？
43:56 K: Obviously. 克：显然。
43:57 B: It says that is the highest value, right? So do we accept that and say that is just a fact? 博姆：它说那是最高的价值所在，对吗？ 所以我们是不是接受了这点，然后说那只是一个事实而已？
44:05 K: I realise I am a prisoner within this limitation. 克：我认识到我是那种局限中的一个囚徒。
44:11 B: Some people get used to it and say, ‘I accept the limitation’. 博姆：有些人习惯了它，然后说，我接受这种局限。
44:14 K: I won’t accept it. My mind says there must be freedom from prison. I am a prisoner, the prison is very nice, cultured, etc., but it is still limited, and it says there must be freedom beyond all this. 克：我不会接受。 我的心说必须要有从牢笼中解脱出来的自由。 我是个囚徒， 这个牢笼看起来非常漂亮、有文化，等等，但它依旧是有限的， 而心说必须有超越这一切的自由。
44:33 B: Which mind says this? Is it the particular mind of the human being? 博姆：是哪颗心这么说的？是人类的个别心吗？
44:44 K: Ah! Who says there must be freedom? Oh, that's very simple. The very pain, the very suffering, demands that we go beyond. 克：啊！是谁说必须有自由？ 噢，这很简单。痛苦本身，苦难本身 就会要求我们超越。
44:57 B: So you are saying that this particular mind, even though it accepts limitation, finds it painful. Therefore this particular mind feels somehow that it is not right.

K: Yes. 		博姆：所以你是说这颗个别心， 即使它接受了局限，还是发现自己很痛苦。 因此这颗个别心感觉或多或少 是不对头的。

克：是的。
45:10 B: It can’t avoid it. There seems to be a necessity of freedom, if you want to put it that way. 博姆：它无法回避这件事。看起来确实有获得自由的必要性， 如果你想那么表达的话。
45:15 K: Freedom is necessary. Any hindrance to freedom is retrogression. 克：自由是必要的。 对自由的任何障碍都是倒行逆施。
45:28 B: That necessity is not an external necessity due to reaction. 博姆：这种必要性不是一种来自于反应的外部必要性。
45:32 K: Freedom is not a reaction! 克：自由不是一种反应！
45:34 B: The necessity of freedom is not a reaction. Some people would say that having been in prison you reacted in this way.

K: Oh no, no. 		博姆：自由的必要性不是一种反应。 有些人会说既然已经身处牢笼了， 你就是那样反应的。

克：噢，不，不。
45:45 So where are we? That means there must be freedom from reaction, freedom from the limitation of thought, freedom from all the movement of time – all that, there must be complete freedom from all that! – before I really understand the empty mind and the order of the universe, which is then the order of the mind. You are asking me a tremendous lot! Am I willing to go that far? 那么我们到了哪里？ 这就意味着必须有摆脱反应的自由， 从思想的局限中解脱出来的自由， 从时间等等的一切运动中解脱出来的自由，必须有 彻底摆脱那一切的自由！ 然后我才能真正懂得 空无的心和宇宙的秩序， 那也就是心灵的秩序。 你对我的要求太高了！ 我愿意去到那么远吗？
46:39 B: The non-freedom has its attractions, you see. 博姆：不自由有它的吸引力，你知道。
46:42 K: I am not interested in its attraction. 克：我对它的吸引力不感兴趣。
46:45 B: But you asked the question: am I willing to go that far, so it seems to suggest that in the non-freedom there is something attractive to hold you. 博姆：但是你提了这个问题：我愿意走那么远吗， 所以看起来像是在说 不自由当中有某种有吸引力的东西留住了你。
46:55 K: I am sure of those. I have found safety, security, pleasure in non-freedom. I realise in that pleasure-pain, there is no freedom and the mind says, not as a reaction, there must be freedom from all this. To come to that point and to let go without conflict, demands its own discipline, its own insight. That’s why I said those of us who have given a certain amount of time thought and investigation into all this, can one go as far as that? Or the responses of the body, responses of daily demand, the responsibilities of daily action – wife, children, and all that, is that what is holding and preventing this sense of complete freedom ? And the monks, the saints and the sannyasis have said, ‘You must abandon the world.' 克：肯定有。 我在不自由中找到了安全、保障、快感。 我意识到在那种苦与乐当中没有自由， 然后心说——不是作为反应——必须有摆脱这一切的自由。 来到这一步，毫无冲突地抛下， 需要它自身的纪律、它自身的洞察。那就是为什么我说过 我们那些为此付出了一定的时间、 思考和探索的人， 能否走到那么远？ 还是说，身体的反应， 日常需要的反应，日常活动的责任， 妻子、孩子，那一切 就是在限制 和妨碍这种全然自由的东西？ 而僧侣、圣人和隐士们 说了，“你必须放弃俗世。”
48:25 B: We've gone into that, they bring the world with them, anyway. 博姆：这个我们探讨过了，他们还是把俗世随身带走了，不管怎样。
48:31 K: That's again another form of idiocy – sorry to put it like that. We have been through all that so I refuse to enter again into all that. Now I say, is that universe, and the mind that has emptied itself of all this, are they one?

B: Are they one? 		克：那又是另一种形式的愚行——抱歉这么说。 这些我们都说过了， 所以我拒绝再次进入那一切。现在我说， 那个宇宙，那颗让你清空了那一切的心， 它们是一回事吗？

博姆：它们是一体的吗？
48:58 K: One. They are not separate, they are one. 克：一回事。它们不是分开的，它们是一体的。
49:04 B: It sounds as if you are saying that the material universe is like the body of an absolute mind. 博姆：听起来你好像是说物质宇宙 就像是绝对心灵的身体。
49:15 K: Yes, all right. All right! 克：是的，好的。好吧！
49:17 B: It may be a picturesque way of putting it! 博姆：这可能是一种比较形象化的说法！
49:25 K: We must be very careful also not to fall into the trap that the universal mind is always there. 克：我们也必须非常小心，才不会落入这个陷阱： 普世心一直在那里。
49:37 B: How would you put it then? 博姆：那你会怎么表达？
49:41 K: They have said that: God is always there – Brahman, or highest principle is always there – and all you have to do is to cleanse yourself and arrive at that, do all kinds of things to come there. Which is also a very dangerous statement because then you say, there is the eternal in me... 克：他们说过：上帝一直在那里 ——大梵天，或者最高法则始终在那里， 你需要做的只是净化自己然后到达那里， 做各种事情好去到那里。 那也是一个非常危险的说法，因为 然后你就会说，我心中有永恒之物
50:10 B: I think thought is projecting the eternal. But how would you put it... There is a logical difficulty in saying it is always there, because ‘always’ implies time. It is there every minute, that's what you mean and we are trying to discuss what has nothing to do with time. 博姆：我认为是思想在投射永恒之物。 但是你要怎么表达呢 说“它一直在那里”，其中就有一个逻辑上的难题， 因为“一直”就隐含了时间。 它每一分钟都在那，这是你的意思， 而我们想要探讨的是与时间无关的东西。
50:29 K: Nothing to do with time. 克：与时间无关。
50:30 B: So we can’t place it as being here, there, now, or then. 博姆：所以我们不能把它放在这里、那里、此时或者彼时。
50:39 K: So, we have come to a point, sir, that there is this universal mind, and the human mind can be of that when there is freedom. I think that is enough, isn’t it? 克：所以，我们来到了这一步，先生， 有了这颗普世心， 而人类的心灵是可以成为它的一部分的， 当有了自由。 我认为差不多了，不是吗？
51:10 B: Yes, what time is it? 博姆：是的，几点了？
51:14 K: We are going by time, all right! 克：我们是按时间来的，好吧！
51:17 B: Well that should be enough. 博姆：哦，应该差不多了。
51:19 K: That should be enough. We’ll continue, when? 克：应该够了。那我们何时继续呢？
51:22 B: You want to go next week, on Saturday? 博姆：你希望定在下周，周六怎么样？
51:25 K: We will see! 克：我们到时候再看！