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OJBR80CB15 - 人类的问题能够得到解决吗？
与大卫▪博姆的第十五次对谈
1980年9月27日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:31 K: Sir, I would like to discuss something which we were talking about the other day. 克：先生，我想探讨一下 我们那天谈到的一个问题。
0:46 We have cultivated a mind that can solve almost any technological problems. And apparently human problems have never been solved. Human beings are drowned by their problems: problems of communication, problems of knowledge, problems of relationship, problems of heaven and hell, the whole human existence has become a vast complex problem. And apparently throughout history it has been like this. And man, in spite of his knowledge, in spite of his centuries of evolution, has never been free of problems. 我们培养了一个可以解决 几乎所有技术问题的心智。 而显然人的问题从来都没有得到解决。 人类淹没在自身的问题当中： 交流的问题，知识的问题， 关系的问题，天堂地狱的问题， 整个人类的存在变成了一个复杂无比的巨大问题。 而且显然贯穿整个历史始终都是这个样子。 而人类，尽管他拥有知识， 尽管他进行了千百年的革命， 却从没有摆脱这些问题。
2:03 B: Yes, I would add, of insoluble problems. 博姆：是的，我会再加一点：这些无解的问题。
2:09 K: I question if human problems are insoluble. 克：我质疑人类的问题是不是无解的。
2:14 B: As they are put now. 博姆：现在看起来是这样的。
2:17 K: Of course, now these problems have become so complex, and so incredibly insoluble – as things are. No politician, scientist, or philosopher is going to solve them except through wars – none of them can solve them. So why has the mind of human beings, throughout the world... has not been able to resolve human, daily problems of life? What are the things that prevent the solution of these problems, completely? Is it that we have never turned our minds to it? We spend all our days and probably half the night in thinking about technological problems and we have no time for the other? 克：当然，现在这些问题已经变得 如此复杂、如此不可思议地难以解决，情况确实如此。 没有哪个政客、科学家或者哲学家能够解决它们， 除了通过战争——他们没有一个能解决它们。 那么为什么全世界人类的心智 都没能解决人类日常生活中的问题？ 是什么东西 彻底阻碍了这些问题的解决？ 是不是因为我们从来都没有用心去解决它们？ 我们把整个白天，可能还有半个晚上都花在了思考 技术问题上，所以没有时间留给另一类问题？
3:31 B: That is only part of it. Many people feel that the other should take care of itself, they don’t give a lot of attention to these problems. 博姆：这只是一部分原因。很多人觉得 另一类问题应该会自己解决， 他们不把很多注意力留给那些问题。
3:42 K: Why? Why? I am rather concerned about this because in a school like this, or with all the people we talk to, the human problems remain constant. And I am asking, in this dialogue, whether it is possible to have no problems at all – human problems. Technological problems can be solved. But human problems seem insoluble. Why? Is it our education? Is it our deep-rooted tradition that we accept things as they are? 克：为什么？为什么？ 我非常关心这个问题，因为 在这样的一所学校里，或者和我们交谈的那些人， 人类问题依然如故地存在着。 而在这次对话中我想问 有没有可能根本没有任何问题 ——人类的问题。技术问题可以得到解决。 但是人类问题似乎是无解的。为什么？ 是因为我们的教育吗？是因为我们根深蒂固的传统， 我们接受了事物的现状吗？
4:56 B: That is certainly part of it. These problems accumulate as civilisation gets older, people keep on accepting things which make problems. For example, there are now far more nations in the world than there used to be and each one creates new problems. If you go back to a certain period of time... 博姆：那当然是一部分原因。 这些问题随着文明变得久远而累积起来， 人们不断地接受着制造了问题的事物。 例如说，现在世界上的国家数量 比以前多得多，而且每个国家都在制造新的问题。 如果你回溯到某个历史时期
5:21 K: Every potty little tribe becomes a nation. 克：每个小小的部落都变成了一个国家。
5:25 B: ...and then they must fight their neighbour. 博姆：……然后他们一定会跟他们的邻居交战。
5:28 K: And they have this marvellous technology to kill each other. But we are talking about human problems, human problems of relationship, human problems of lack of freedom, this sense of constant uncertainty, fear, you know, the human struggle, and working for a livelihood for the rest of your life. It seems so extraordinarily wrong, the whole thing. 克：然后他们拥有了这种不可思议的技术 来互相残杀。但是我们谈的是人的问题， 人的关系问题，人缺乏自由的问题， 这种持续的不确定感、恐惧感， 你知道，人类的挣扎， 还有倾其一生只为了谋生。 这看起来错得如此离谱，这整件事。
6:06 B: I think people have lost sight of that. Generally speaking, they sort of accept the situation as it is, in which they find themselves, try to make the best of it, trying to solve some little problems to ameliorate their situation. They wouldn’t look at this whole big situation very seriously. 博姆：我认为人们没看到这一点。 通常说来，他们似乎接受了现状， 从中找到了自己，试图最大化地利用现实， 努力解决一些小问题来改善他们的境遇。 他们不愿非常认真地去审视这整个大局。
6:28 K: The religious people have created a tremendous problem for man. 克：宗教人士为人类制造了巨大的问题。
6:33 B: Yes. They are trying to solve problems too. Everybody has often his own little fragment solving whatever he thinks he can solve, and it all adds up to chaos. 博姆：是的。他们也在试图解决问题。 每个人都困在自己的小碎片里，解决着 他认为自己可以解决的随便什么问题，而这都增加了混乱。
6:46 K: That’s what I am saying. We live as human beings in a chaos. I want to find out if I can live without a single problem for the rest of my life. Is that possible? 克：这就是我想说的意思。我们作为人类活在了混乱当中。 我想搞清楚我余生能否活得 没有丝毫问题。 那可能吗？
7:09 B: I wonder if we should even call these things 'problems'. A problem would have to be reasonably solvable. If you put a problem of how to achieve a certain result that presupposes that you could reasonably find a way to do it. Right? Technologically. Now, psychologically, the problem cannot be looked at that way, to propose a result to achieve and then find a way to do it. 博姆：我想知道我们甚至应不应该把这些东西叫做“问题”。 一个“问题”应该是能够得到合理解决的。 如果你提出一个“如何实现某个结果”的问题， 那就预设了你可以合理地找到办法去做到。 对吗？技术上。而心理上， 问题就不能这么看待了 ——设定一个要达到的结果然后找到解决办法。
7:42 K: What is the root of all this? What is the cause of all this human chaos? 克：这一切的根源是什么？ 人类所有这些混乱的原因何在？
7:52 B: We have been discussing this for a long time. 博姆：这个我们已经讨论过很长时间了。
7:58 K: I am trying to come to it from a different angle: whether there is an ending to problems. You see, personally I refuse to have problems. 克：我想从另一个角度来说明： 问题能不能终结。 你知道，我个人拒绝有任何问题。
8:34 B: Somebody might argue with you about that saying you may be challenged with something. 博姆：可能有人会跟你争论说 你也许会受到什么事的挑战。
8:41 K: It is not a problem. I was challenged the other day about something very very serious. 克：那并不是一个问题。那天我就受到了挑战， 因为一件非常非常严肃的事。
8:47 B: It is a matter of clarification, part of the difficulty is clarification of the language. 博姆：那只是一个澄清的问题， 一部分困难就在于语言的澄清。

克：不只是语言……

博姆：还有它背后的一切。
8:56 K: Not only language, it's a question of relationship and action. A certain problem arose the other day, which involved lots of people and a certain action had to be taken. Personally, to me, it was not a problem. 克：不只是语言，那是一个关系和行动的问题。 那天出现了一个问题， 涉及到了很多人， 也必须采取某种行动。 对我个人而言，那并不是一个问题。
9:24 B: We have to make clear what you mean – I don’t know without an example... 博姆：我们得说清楚你说的是什么意思 ——我不知道没有一个例子的话
9:29 K: I mean by ‘problem’ something that has to be resolved, something you worry about, something you are endlessly concerned and questioning, answering, doubt, uncertain, and take some kind of action at the end of which you regret. 克：我说的“问题”是某件必须被解决的事， 你担心的事，你不停关注的事， 提问、回答、怀疑、不确定， 采取了某种行动，最后你又为之后悔。
9:46 B: Let’s begin with the technical problem, where the idea of a problem first arose. You have a challenge, something needs to be done, and you say that's a problem. 博姆：我们先从技术问题开始， “问题”这个概念就是从那里产生的。 你有了一个挑战，一件需要做到的事， 然后你说那是一个问题。
9:57 K: Yes, that is generally called a problem. 克：是的，那通常被叫做“一个问题”。
9:59 B: The word ‘problem’ is based on the idea of putting forth a possible solution and then trying to achieve it. 博姆：“问题”这个词就是基于 这个概念的：提出一个可能的解决办法 然后再努力去实现。
10:07 K: Or, I have a problem but I don’t know how to deal with it. 克：或者，我有一个问题，但我不知道如何去处理它。
10:11 B: That’s second. If you have a problem and you have no idea of how to deal with it, then... 博姆：那是第二种情况。如果你有一个问题， 而你对如何解决它没有概念，那么
10:17 K: So I go round asking people, getting more and more confused. 克：所以我四处询问别人， 变得越来越困惑。
10:23 B: That's a change from the simple idea of a tecnical problem where you usually have some notion of what to do. 博姆：那已经从一个单纯技术问题的概念发生了变化， 技术问题你通常对于怎么办是有想法的。
10:35 K: I wonder if we do.

B: What? Technical problems? 		克：我怀疑是不是这样。

博姆：什么？技术问题？
10:38 K: Technical problems are fairly simple. 克：技术问题很简单。
10:42 B: They often bring challenges requiring you to go very deeply and change your ideas. 博姆：它们经常会带来挑战，要求你 探究得更深入，并且改变你的想法。
10:48 K: Yes, that is what I am trying to get at. 克：是的，这就是我想说明的。
10:51 B: Even a technical problem might do that. But now, for a technical problem, you would say, 'I can see generally what to do to solve it.' Say there is lack of food, generally what you have got to do is produce more food, find means of doing it. 博姆：即使是一个技术问题也可能会这样。 但是现在，对于一个技术问题，你可以说， “我能大体知道怎么解决它。” 比如说食物匮乏，通常你需要做的就是 生产更多的事物，找到实施的做法。
11:08 K: We can do that! 克：那个我们可以做到！
11:10 B: Yes, and also we could discover entirely new ideas. Now we have a psychological problem, can we do the same? 博姆：是的，我们也可以发现一些全新的理念。 而现在我们有的是心理问题，我们能用同样的做法吗？
11:18 K: Yes, that’s the point. How do we deal with this thing? 克：是的，这就是重点了。 我们要怎样处理这件事？
11:28 B: What kind of problem shall we discuss? 博姆：我们要讨论哪种问题？
11:32 K: Human problems. 克：人类问题。
11:33 B: What sort of problem? 博姆：哪类问题呢？
11:35 K: Any problem which arises in human relationship. 克：人类关系中出现的任何问题。
11:39 B: Let’s say people cannot agree, they fight each other constantly. 博姆：比如说人们不能达成共识， 他们不停地互相争吵。
11:44 K: Yes, let’s take that for a very simple thing. In our discussions here with a group of people, it seems to be almost impossible to think together, to have the same outlook, the same attitude, not copying each other, but an attitude which seems so normal, healthy. And each person puts his opinion forward and he is contradicted by another. And so this goes on all the time, in the world and here. 克：好的，我们拿一件很简单的事为例。 在这里我们和一群人讨论， 看起来几乎不可能一起思考， 抱有同样的看法、同样的态度， 不是互相仿效， 而是一种看起来再正常、健康不过的态度。 可每个人都会提出自己的观点， 然后与另一个人的观点相悖。 而这种情况在全世界和这里一直在上演着。
12:30 B: All right. Now we say our problem is to work together, to think together. 博姆：是的。那么我们说我们的问题是 一起工作，一起思考。
12:36 K: Yes, work together, think together, co-operate without a monetary issue involved in it. 克：是的，一起工作，一起思考，合作， 其中不牵扯任何钱财问题。
12:48 B: That's another question, that people will work together if they are paid highly. 博姆：那是另一个问题了， 如果报酬很高，人们愿意一起工作。
12:54 K: Of course, you can see thats's happening. 克：当然，你能看到实际情况就是这样。
12:56 B: But given a situation where this is not what we want then we have a problem. 博姆：但是假设有种情况钱并不是我们想要的， 然后我们有了一个问题。
13:01 K: Yes, that is right. Now how do we solve such a problem? I offer my opinion, you offer, and he and so on, all of us are offering an opinion and so we don’t meet each other at all! 克：是的，没错。那我们要如何解决这样一个问题呢？ 我提供我的意见，你提供你的，他提供他的，等等， 我们所有人都给出了一个观点， 所以我们彼此根本就无法达成共识！
13:21 B: No.

K: So what shall we do? And it seems almost impossible to give up one’s opinions. 		博姆：没错。

克：那我们该怎么办？ 而且一个人看起来几乎不可能放弃自己的观点。
13:28 B: That's one of the difficulties. If you say, 'it is my problem to give up my opinions' it doesn’t make sense. I am not sure you can regard it as a problem, saying what shall I do to give up my opinions. 博姆：这就是困难之一。如果你说， “放弃我的观点，那是我的问题”， 那没什么意义。 我不确定你可以把它当作一个问题， 说我该怎么办才能放弃我的观点。
13:47 K: No, of course. But that is a fact. So observing that, seeing the necessity that we all should come together, when this is put forward to the others, it becomes a problem to them. 克：不，当然不是。但这是一个事实。 所以看到了这一点， 看到了我们都聚到一切的必要性， 当这个问题被提给其他人，对他们来说就变成了一个问题。
14:09 B: Because people find it hard to give up opinions. 博姆：因为人们发现很难放弃观点。
14:13 K: Opinions, preconceived ideas, their own experiences, their conclusions, their ideals, their beliefs, you know, all that. 克：观点，事先抱有的看法，他们自己的经验， 他们的结论，他们的理想，他们的信念， 你知道，那一切。
14:22 B: Even it may not seem like an opinion at that moment... 博姆：即使它当时可能看起来不像是一个观点
14:25 K: They call it fact.

B: Fact or truth. 		克：他们称之为“事实”。

博姆：事实或者真相。
14:28 K: So, what shall we do? If you see that it is important that human beings work together, not for some ideal, for some belief, or for some god, or for some principle, but the importance, the necessity of working together. I mean, in the United Nations they are not working together. In India they are not working together. No people in any country work together. 克：那么，我们该怎么办呢？ 如果我明白人类一起工作很重要， 不是为了某些理想、某些信念， 或者某个神明、某个原则，而是 一起工作的重要性、必要性。 我是说，在联合国里，他们并没有一起工作。 在印度，他们并没有一起工作。 任何国家都没有人通力合作。
15:18 B: Now some people might say we have got not only opinions, but self-interest which is very similar. 博姆：有些人可能会说我们有的 不只是观点，还有个人利益 那其实很类似。
15:28 K: All that, and it becomes a problem. 克：那一切，然后那就变成了一个问题。
15:33 B: It is called a problem. If two people have different self-interest then there is no way, as long as they maintain that, that they can work together. 博姆：被叫做一个问题。如果两个人有不同的个人利益， 那就没办法了，只要他们坚持这一点， 他们就无法合作。
15:46 K: Agreed, but suppose in a place like this, where there is a group of people, and it is important that we all work together. Even in a small village, small country, we all must work together. And apparently that becomes almost incredibly difficult. 克：同意，但是假设在一个像这样的地方， 有一群人， 我们都通力合作很重要。 即便在一个小村子、一个小国家里，我们也必须通力合作。 而显然这变得几乎不可思议地困难了。
16:09 B: Yes, now, how do you break into this? 博姆：是的，那么，你如何破解这个难题呢？
16:13 K: That is what I want to discuss.

B: Let’s discuss it. 		克：这就是我想探讨的。

博姆：我们来讨论一下。
16:26 K: If you point that out to me, that we must work together, and show to me the importance of it, and I also see it is important but I can’t do it! 克：如果你跟我指出来，我们必须通力合作， 向我说明这一点的重要性， 我也明白这很重要，可我就是做不到！
16:45 B: That’s the point, it is not enough to even see it is important and have the intention to do it. Ordinarily when we say ‘I see the importance and I have the intention to do it’ – I go and do it. 博姆：这就是症结了，甚至连 明白它很重要而且有意愿这么做都不够。 通常当我们说我明白重要性 而且我有意愿这么做，我就会去做。
16:58 K: But I can’t do it! 克：但是我做不到！
16:59 B: So a new factor comes in here that a person sees something is important, he intends to do it and he can’t do it. 博姆：所以这里出现了一个新的因素， 一个人明白了一件事很重要， 他想那么做，可他做不到。
17:06 K: And that creates a problem to him! 克：这就给他造成了一个问题！
17:08 B: Yes, and to everybody.

K: Yes, to everybody. 		博姆：是的，给每个人。

克：是的，每个人。
17:13 B: But then why can't we carry out our intentions? Seeing the importance, knowing we want to do it and yet we can’t do it. It seems puzzling. 博姆：但是我们为什么就不能实现我们的意愿呢？ 看到了重要性，知道我们想那么做， 可还是做不到。这看起来让人很困惑。
17:21 K: One can give many reasons for that but those causes and reasons and explanations don’t solve the issue. What will – we come back to the same thing – what will make a human mind change? Seeing that it is necessary and yet incapable or unwilling to change. What factor is necessary in this? Some new factor is necessary. 克：一个人可以对此给出很多原因， 但那些原因、结果和解释 解决不了这个问题。 什么能——我们又回到了同一个问题上： 什么能让人心改变？ 明白改变是必要的， 却依然无力或者不愿意改变。 这里面需要什么因素？需要某种新的因素。
18:01 B: Yes, I feel it is a perception, the ability to observe what is holding the person, preventing him from changing. 博姆：是的，我觉得那是一种洞察， 是有能力去观察什么限制了那个人， 阻碍他改变。
18:14 K: Sir, is the new factor attention? 克：先生，这个新的因素是关注吗？
18:21 B: Yes, that's what I meant, attention, but then if you are going to break into this in a group of people, what kind of attention do you mean? 博姆：是的，这就是我说的意思，关注， 但是然后如果你要在一群人中 突破这一点，你说的又是哪种关注？
18:33 K: We can discuss – what is attention – we can discuss that. 克：我们可以讨论关注是什么——我们可以讨论这个问题。
18:37 B: It may have many meanings, to different people. 博姆：它可能有多种含义，对于不同的人来说。
18:40 K: Obvious, as usual... so many opinions about attention. Could we, you and I, see what attention is? This morning, a letter came, in which the person says: where there is attention there is no problem; where there is inattention everything arises. Now, without making attention into a problem, what do we mean by that? So that I understand it, not verbally, not intellectually but deeply, in my blood, I understand the nature of attention in which no problem can ever exist. Obviously it is not concentration. 克：显然，就像通常那样……关于关注有太多的观点了。 我们，你和我，能否看看关注是什么？ 今天上午来了一封信，这个人在信中说： 有了关注，就没有了问题； 当出现了心不在焉，一切就都来了。 那么，在不把关注变成问题的情况下， 我们说的这个词是什么意思？于是我就可以懂得它， 不是从字面上、理智上，而是深深地，在我的血液里。 我明白了关注的本质， 当中没有任何问题存在。 显然它不是专注。
20:17 B: Yes, we’ve gone into that. 博姆：是的，我们探讨过这个了。
20:20 K: We have gone into that. Obviously it is not an endeavour, an experience, a struggle to be attentive. But you show me the nature of attention which is: when there is attention there is no centre from which I attend. 克：我们探讨过了。显然它不是 一种努力、一种经验，一种想要关注的努力。 但是你跟我说明了关注的本质，那就是： 有关注时，没有一个出发去关注的中心。
20:49 B: But that is a difficult thing. 博姆：但这是一件很难的事。
20:51 K: Of course. Don’t let’s make a problem of it. 克：当然。我们不要把它变成一个问题。
20:54 B: No, but we have been trying that for a long time. I think that there is first of all some difficulty about what is meant by attention, because the content of thought itself, when a person is looking at it, he may think he is attending. 博姆：没错，但是我们已经尝试去这么做很久了。 我认为首先存在的困难是 “关注”是什么意思，因为 思想内容本身是存在的。当一个人去看时， 他也许以为他是在关注的。
21:16 K: No, in that state of attention there is no thought. 克：不，在那种关注状态中没有思想。
21:19 B: Yes, but how do you stop thought then? While thinking is going on, there is an impression of attention of attention which is not attention. One thinks, one supposes that one is paying attention. 博姆：是的，但是你又如何停止思想呢？ 当思考在进行，就会有一种在关注的印象 ——对关注的印象，并不是关注。 一个人认为，一个人觉得他正在关注。
21:36 K: No. When one supposes one is paying attention that's not attention. 克：不。当一个人觉得他正在关注，那就不是关注了。
21:43 B: But that's what often happens. So how are we going to communicate what is the true meaning of attention? 博姆：但这就是经常发生的事。所以我们要如何 交流关注的真正含义呢？
21:51 K: Or would you say: to find out what is attention could we discuss what is inattention? Through negation come to the positive. When I am inattentive, what takes place? When I am inattentive... 克：或者你会不会说：要弄清楚关注是什么， 我们能否讨论一下不关注是什么？ 通过否定，正确的就出现了。 当我心不在焉，发生了什么？ 当我漫不经心
22:23 B: All sorts of things take place. 博姆：各种事情都会发生。
22:28 K: No, much more than that. In my inattentiveness – if there is such word – I feel lonely, desperate, depressed, anxious and so on. 克：不，不止如此。在我的漫不经心中 ——如果有这个词的话—— 我感到孤独、绝望、沮丧、焦虑，等等。
22:46 B: The mind begins to break up and go into confusion. 博姆：心开始破碎，然后陷入困惑。
22:50 K: Fragmentation takes place. Or, in my lack of attention, I identify myself with so many other things. 克：破碎就发生了。 或者，在我缺乏关注时， 我就让自己跟别的很多东西相认同。
23:03 B: It may also be pleasant.

K: Of course, it is always pleasant. 		博姆：那可能也是愉快的。

克：当然，一直是愉快的。
23:08 B: Well, but it may be painful too. 博姆：嗯，可是也可能是痛苦的。
23:11 K: I find, later on, that that which was pleasing becomes pain. 克：我发现，随后，之前愉快的变成了痛苦。
23:21 So all that is a movement in which there is no attention. Right? Are we getting anywhere?

B: I don’t know. 		所以这些都是一种没有关注的运动。 对吗？ 我们走到哪里了吗？

博姆：我不知道。
23:42 K: I feel that attention is the real solution to all this. A mind that is really attentive, which has understood the nature of inattention and moves away from it. 克：我认为关注是这一切真正的解决之道。 一颗真正全神贯注的心 懂得了漫不经心的的本质 并且从中脱离了出来。
24:07 B: What is the nature of inattention, then? 博姆：那么漫不经心的本质是什么呢？
24:10 K: The nature of inattention? Indolence, negligence, this self-concern, the self-contradiction, all that is the nature of inattention. 克：漫不经心的本质？ 懒惰，懈怠， 这种只顾自己，自相矛盾， 这些都是漫不经心的本质。
24:33 B: Yes. But a person who has self-concern may feel that he is attending to the concerns of himself. He feels, I’ve got problems, I am paying attention to them. 博姆：是的。但是一个只顾自己的人可能会觉得 他在关注自己的某些担忧。 他觉得，我有问题，我在关注它们。
24:46 K: Ah, I see how you are using it. Quite. If there is self-contradiction in me, and then I pay attention to it in order not to be self-contradictory, that is not attention. 克：啊，我明白你的用法了。没错。 如果我内心自相矛盾， 然后我关注它， 为了不再自相矛盾——那不是关注。
25:03 B: Can you make it clear, ordinarily one might think that is attention. 博姆：你能把这点说清楚吗，通常一个人会认为那是关注。
25:07 K: No, it is merely a process of thought which says, ‘I am this, I must be that.' 克：不，那只是一个思想过程， 说：“我是这个，我必须成为那个。”
25:18 B: You are saying this attempt to become is not attention. 博姆：你是说这种成为的企图不是关注。
25:24 K: That’s it. Psychological becoming breeds inattention. 克：没错。心理上的成为滋生了漫不经心。
25:36 B: The person may think he is attending to something but he is not, when he is engaged in this process. 博姆：这个人可能会认为他在关注着某件事， 但他没有，当他陷入了这个过程之中。
25:46 K: Isn’t it very difficult, sir, to be free of becoming? That is the root of it, isn’t it? 克：要摆脱成为，先生，难道不是很困难吗？ 这就是它的根源，不是吗？
25:54 B: To be free of what?

K: To end the becoming. Does this convey anything? Come and join us. Are we getting anywhere, sir? Or are we going round and round in circles? Most human beings have problems of some kind or another. Apart from technological problems which can be solved, apparently human problems are not soluble. And I say, why? 		博姆：摆脱什么？

克：终结“成为什么”。 这说明了些什么吗？来，加入我们。 我们走到哪里了吗，先生？ 还是说，我们在来来回回兜圈子？ 大多数人都有这种或那种问题。 除了可以解决的技术问题， 显然人类的问题并没有解决。 而我说，为什么？
26:42 B: Well, we have just answered it: because they are not really paying attention to them. 博姆：哦，我们刚才已经回答了： 因为我们并没有真的关注它们。
26:46 K: No, but then paying attention becomes a problem. 克：没错，但是然后关注就变成了一个问题。
26:49 B: I know it does. But I am saying there is no attention and that is why these problems are there. 博姆：我知道是这样。但是我说实际上没有关注， 这就是为什么这些问题还在那里的原因。
26:54 K: Yes. And then you point that out and it becomes a problem. How am I to be attentive? 克：是的。然后你把它指了出来，于是它变成了一个问题： 我要如何才能关注？
27:01 B: The question is to stop it. The difficulty is that the mind plays tricks and in trying to deal with this it does the very same thing again. 博姆：问题是要停下它。 困难就在于心会耍花招， 而为了对付这个问题，它又做了一模一样的事。
27:14 K: So let’s come back. Is the mind, which is so full of knowledge, self-importance, self-contradiction, etc., that mind, the human mind, has come to a point where it finds itself, psychologically, it can’t move. 克：所以我们得回过头来。 心装满了知识、自我重要性、 自相矛盾，等等，这颗心， 人类的心，能否来到这一步：它发现自己 心理上完全无法动弹。
27:45 B: There is nowhere to move, yes. 博姆：没地方可去，是的。
27:51 K: So what? What would I say to a person who has come to that point? I wonder if I am moving along, or are we not? 克：然后呢？ 跟一个已经来到这一步的人，你会怎么说？ 我想知道我是不是往前走了，还是说我们没有？
28:11 B: Well, I think it is beginning to focus the question. 博姆：哦，我认为是开始聚焦问题了。
28:20 K: I come to you. I am full of this confusion, anxiety, and sense of despair, not only facing what the world is, but also in myself. I come to that point, and I want to break through it. So it becomes a problem to me. 克：我来找你，我满怀着这种困惑、焦虑， 还有绝望感，不只是面对着世界的现状， 还有自己的内心，我来到了这一步， 而我想突破它。所以这对我来说变成了一个问题。
28:48 B: There is an attempt to become again. 博姆：还是有想要成为什么的企图。
28:52 K: Yes. That is what I want to get at. So is that the root of all this, this desire to become? 克：是的。这就是我想说明的。 那么，这是那一切的根源吗，这种成为的渴望？
28:59 B: It must be close to the root, it keeps on coming in without notice. The inattention is such that you say that I am looking at my problem and my problem is always becoming, so I say I want to stop becoming, which again is inattention. 博姆：它肯定离根源很近了， 它总是不知不觉地溜进来。 漫不经心就是这样的：你说我在看着 我的问题，而我的问题是总想成为什么，所以我说 我想停止成为，可那还是漫不经心。
29:18 K: Which again becomes a problem. So how do I regard, or look, without the movement of becoming, at this whole complex issue of myself? 克：而且又变成了一个问题。所以我要如何看待 或者去看，没有这种成为活动， 如何去看我自己的这整个复杂的问题呢？
29:35 B: It seems one has to look at the whole, we did not look at the whole of becoming when you said, how can I pay attention. Part of it seemed to slip out and became the observer. 博姆：好像一个人必须去看这个整体， 而我们并没有去看这整个成为的问题，如果你说 我如何才能关注的话。 它的一部分好像溜出去了，变成了观察者。
29:52 K: Look, becoming has been the curse of this – psychologically, a curse. A poor man wants to be rich and a rich man wants to be richer, it is this movement, all the time, of becoming, both outwardly and inwardly. Though it brings great deal of pain and sometimes pleasure, this sense of becoming, fulfilling, achieving psychologically, has made my life into all that is. Now I realise that but I can’t stop it! 克：瞧，成为一直是这种诅咒， 心理上的一种诅咒。 一个穷人想变得富有，一个富人想变得更加富有， 就是这种成为的活动，一直不停， 内外都是如此。 尽管它带来了大量的痛苦和某些快乐， 这种心理上的成为、满足、 实现，就把我的生活变成了现在这样。 现在我认识到了这一点，可就是停不下来！
30:40 B: Yes, but one thing is, why can’t I stop it? 博姆：是的，但有个问题是，我为什么停不下来？
30:43 K: Let’s go into that a little bit. Partly it is because I have always considered, in becoming, that there is a reward at the end of it and I am always avoiding pain – punishment and reward. And in that cycle I am caught. That is probably one of the reasons why the mind keeps on trying to become something. And the other perhaps is deep-rooted anxiety, fear. If I don’t become, be something, I am lost, and I am uncertain, insecure. The mind has accepted these illusions and says, 'I cannot end that.' 克：我们来稍微探讨一下。 一部分是因为我一直认为在成为过程的 最后将会有某种回报， 同时我一直在避开痛苦——惩罚和奖励。 我就困在这个循环之中。这可能就是原因之一 ——为什么心不停地想要成为什么。 另一个原因可能是根深蒂固的焦虑和恐惧。 如果我不变成、成为什么，我就迷失了， 我就会觉得不确定、不安全。 心接受了这些幻觉，然后说，“我无法终止这种做法。”
31:51 B: Yes, but then why doesn’t the mind end it? Also we have to go into the question of saying that there is no meaning to these illusions. 博姆：是的，但是那心为什么就不能终止这种做法呢？ 我们也得探讨一下这个问题，也就是说 这些幻觉毫无意义。
32:05 K: How do you convince me that I am caught in an illusion? You can’t, unless I see it myself. I cannot see it because my illusion is so strong. That illusion has been nurtured, cultivated by religion, by family, it is so deeply-rooted in mind that I refuse to let that go. 克：你如何说服我我困在了幻觉中？ 你说服不了，除非我亲自看到。 我看不到，因为我的幻觉太强大了。 那个幻觉被宗教、被家庭 所滋养、所培育，它在我心里如此根深蒂固 以致于我拒绝放开它。
32:42 B: Then it seems impossible.

K: That is what is happening. That is what is taking place with a large number of people. They say, ‘I want to do this but I cannot do it.' Now, given that situation, what is one to do? Is it explanations, logic, all the various contradictions in logic and so on, will that help him? Obviously not. 		博姆：那看起来是不可能的。

克：这就是实际发生的事。 这就是大把的人身上实际发生的事。 他们说，“我想这么做，但我就是做不到。” 那么，既然有这个情况，一个人该怎么办呢？ 解释、逻辑以及逻辑中 各种互相矛盾的说法，能帮到他吗？显然不能。
33:25 B: No because it all gets absorbed into the structure. 博姆：不能，因为那些都会被吸收到那个结构当中去。
33:30 K: Obviously not. So what is the next thing? 克：显然不能。那下一步该怎么办？
33:36 B: I would question If he says, ‘I want to change’, there is also the wish not to change. That’s in there. 博姆：我会质疑，如果他说“我想改变”， 其实还有不想改变的愿望。它就在那里。
33:43 K: Of course. The man who says, ‘I want to change’ has also at the back of his mind ‘Really, why should I change?’ They go together. 克：当然。那个说“我想改变”的人 内心深处还有一个声音说， “真的，我为什么要改变？”它们是一起的。
33:57 B: So then you’ve got a contradiction. 博姆：于是你有了一个矛盾。
34:00 K: That is what I mean, a contradiction. I have lived in this contradiction, I have accepted this contradiction... 克：这就是我的意思，一种矛盾。 我一直活在这种矛盾里， 我接受了这种矛盾
34:07 B: Why should I have accepted it?

K: Because it's a habit. 		博姆：为什么我接受了它？

克：因为那是一个习惯。
34:11 B: But the mind, when healthy, will not accept a contradiction. 博姆：但是心，如果健康的话是不会接受矛盾的。
34:16 K: But our mind isn’t healthy! Our minds are so diseased, so corrupt, so confused, that even though you point out all the dangers of this, it refuses to see it. 克：但是心并不健康！ 我们的心是如此病入膏肓，如此腐败，如此困惑， 乃至于即便你指出了这其中所有的危险， 它还是拒绝看到这一点。
34:41 So, suppose I am a man in that position, how do we help him to see clearly the danger of becoming? Let’s put it that way. Psychologically becoming, which implies identification with a nation, all that business. 所以，假设我是处在那个位置的一个人， 我们如何才能帮他清楚地看到 成为的危险？我们先这么表达。 心理上的成为， 意味着与某个国家相认同，诸如此类的把戏。
35:05 B: Or holding to opinions. 博姆：或者抱守各种观点。
35:07 K: Beliefs, I have had an experience, it gives me tremendous satisfaction, I am going to hold on to it. I have had knowledge, you know, all that. How do you help me, such a person, to be free of all this? Your words, your explanations, your logic, everything says, 'Quite right. but I can’t move out of that.' 克：还有信念，我有过一次经验，它给了我 极大的满足，我要紧抓住它不放。 我有了知识，你知道，诸如此类。 你如何帮助我，这样一个人，摆脱这一切？ 你的语言，你的解释，你的逻辑， 一切都在说，“很对，但我就是脱离不出来。”
35:44 I wonder if there is another factor, another way of communication, which isn’t based on words, knowledge, explanations and reward – you follow? Is there another way of communicating, which we were talking about at the table for a brief moment. You see, in that too, there is a danger. I think there is, I am sure there is, a way of communicating which is not verbal, which is not analytical, logical, – which doesn’t mean lack of sanity, but I am sure there is another way. 我想知道是不是有另一个 因素， 另一种交流的方式，不是基于语言、 知识、解释和奖励的——你明白吗？ 有没有另一种交流方式， 我们之前在餐桌前简单讨论过的那种。 你瞧，那当中也有一种危险。 我想是有的，我确定有一种 非语言的、 不是分析和逻辑的交流方式， 那并不意味着缺乏理性， 而是我确定还有另一种方式。
37:09 B: Perhaps there is. 博姆：也许是有的。
37:13 K: Now how do you communicate with me who is caught in this trap, non-verbally, so that I grasp it deeply, that breaks away everything else? Is there such a communication? My mind has always communicated with another with words, with explanations, with logic, with analysis, either compulsive, or suggestive, and so on. My mind has been caught in all that. There must be another element which breaks through all that. Otherwise it is impossible! 克：那么你要如何与我这个 困在了这个陷阱里的人用非语言的方式交流， 于是我深刻地领会了 进而摆脱了其他的一切？ 有这样一种交流吗？ 我的心一直是用语言和别人交流的， 用解释，用逻辑，用分析， 要么是强迫性的，要么是启发性的，等等。 我的心一直被困在了这一切当中。 必定存在另一种因素可以打破这一切。 否则那就不可能了！
38:21 B: So It would break through the inability to listen. 博姆：所以它将会打破无力聆听的障碍。
38:24 K: Yes, the inability to listen, the inability to observe, to hear and so on. There must be a different method! I met a man once – many men – who have been to a place with a certain saint and, in his company, they say, 'All our problems are resolved.' Just a minute. And when they go back to their life – back to the old game. 克：是的，无力倾听，无力观察， 无力听到，等等。 必定有另一种方式！ 我曾经遇到过一个人 ——有很多人跟随某个圣人 去到了一个地方，在那个圣人的陪伴下， 他们说，“我们所有的问题都解决了。” 等一下。 可是当他们回到自己的生活中就又退回到了老一套。
39:13 B: There was no intelligence in there, you see. 博姆：那里面没有智慧，你知道的。
39:17 K: No, you see the danger. That man, that saint, being quiet, non-verbal, in his very presence, they feel quiet. You follow what I am saying? And they feel their problems are resolved. 克：没错，你明白其中的危险。那个人，那个圣人， 因为很安静，不着语言，他在场的时候，他们就觉得很安静。 你明白我说的意思吗？ 他们觉得自己的问题解决了。
39:36 B: But it is still from the outside. 博姆：但那还是来自于外在。
39:39 K: Of course, that’s just it! Of course it is – like going to church. And in a good, ancient church, or a cathedral, you feel extraordinarily quiet. It is the atmosphere, it is the structure, the very atmosphere makes you be quiet. 克：当然，就是这样！ 毫无疑问那就跟去教堂一样。 在一个美好而古老的教堂或者大教堂里， 你觉得格外宁静。 是那股氛围，是那里的结构， 是那种气氛本身让你安静的。
40:04 B: It communicates what is meant by quietness, I think. It gets across a communication which is non-verbal, but not very deep. 博姆：它传达了什么叫“安静”，我认为。 它传递了一种非语言的交流， 但不是很深刻。
40:13 K: That is nothing! It is like incense! 克：那什么都不是！就跟熏香一样！
40:17 B: It is superficial. 博姆：那是很表面的。
40:19 K: Yes, utterly superficial, like incense, it evaporates. So we push all that aside. Then what have we left? Not an outside agency – God, or some saviour – push all that aside, what have I left? What is there that can be communicated, which will break through the walls which human beings have built for themselves? 克：是的，极其表面，就像熏香一样，会挥发掉。 所以我们抛开了那一切。那我们还剩下什么？ 没有一个外部的代理——上帝，或者某个救世主—— 把那一切都抛开，我还剩什么？还有什么 可以被交流，它将会打破 人类为自己建造的那些围墙？
41:23 As we said at the lunch table a couple of hours ago, is it love? Of course that word is corrupted, loaded, become dirty. But cleansing that word, is that the factor that will break through all this clever, analytical, all that. Is that the element that is lacking? 正如我们几小时前午餐时所说的那样， 那是爱吗？ 当然这个词已经被腐化了，已经变得沉重和肮脏。 但是洗干净这个词，爱是不是就是那个因素， 它能够打破聪明的分析等等那一切。 那就是缺失的那个因素吗？
42:09 B: We have to discuss it, maybe people are somewhat chary of this word. 博姆：我们得讨论一下， 可能人们对这个词有些谨慎。
42:15 K: I am chary beyond words! 克：我的谨慎都超越词语了！
42:17 B: And therefore, as people resist listening, they will resist love too. 博姆：所以，由于人们抗拒倾听， 他们也会抗拒爱。
42:25 K: That is why I said it is rather a risky word. 克：这就是为什么我说过这其实是一个有风险的词。
42:31 B: Now we were saying the other day also that love contains intelligence, which is care as well, and if we meant by love that energy which also contains intelligence and care... 博姆：我们那天也说过 爱包含了智慧，智慧也是关怀， 如果我们说的爱指的是那股 也包含了智慧和关怀的能量
42:46 K: That we went through the other day. 克：那些我们前几天说过了。
42:48 B: ...so that makes more sense. 博姆：……这样就更说得通了。
42:52 K: Now, wait a minute. You have that quality and I am caught in my misery, my anxiety, and you are trying to penetrate, with that intelligence, this mass of darkness. How will you do it? Will that act? If not, we human beings are lost! You follow, sir? Therefore they have invented Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, they love you – you follow? Which has become so utterly meaningless, superficial and nonsensical. 克：现在，请等一下。你有了那种品质， 而我困在我的困苦、我的焦虑当中， 你试着用那份智慧来穿透 这厚重的黑暗。 你会如何去做？那会起作用吗？ 如果不能，我们人类就迷失了！你明白吗，先生？ 因此他们发明了耶稣、佛陀、克里希那， 他们爱着你，你明白吗？ 这变得太没有意义、 太肤浅、太荒唐了！
43:54 So what shall I do? I think that is the factor, sir: Attention, perception, intelligence and love. You bring it to me and I am incapable of receiving it. And I say, ‘It sounds nice, I feel it, but I can’t hold it.' I can’t hold it because the moment I go outside this room I am lost. 那我该怎么办？ 我认为这就是那个因素，先生： 关注，洞察，智慧和爱。 你把它带来给我，而 我却无力接收它。 于是我说，“这听起来不错， 我能感受到它，可就是抓不住它。”我抓不住它是因为 一旦我走出这个房间，我就迷失了。
44:47 B: That really is the problem. 博姆：这实际上就是问题所在。
44:49 K: Yes sir. That's the real problem. Is love something outside? You understand? Like a saviour is outside, and heaven is outside. But is love something – I am using that word very carefully - something outside of me, which you bring to me, which you awaken in me, which you give me as a gift, or it is in my darkness, in my illusion, suffering, is there that quality? Obviously not – can’t be. 克：是的，先生。这就是真正的问题。 爱是某种外在的东西吗？你明白吗？ 就像救世主是外在的，天堂是外在的。 但爱是某种 ——我很谨慎地使用这个词—— 我之外的东西吗？你把它带来给我， 你从我身上唤醒它，把它作为礼物送给我， 还是说，它就在我的黑暗中，我的幻觉、痛苦之中， 那里就有那种品质？显然不是，不可能是。
46:07 B: Then where is it?

K: That’s just it. It must be there... Now wait a minute. Love is not yours or mine, it is not personal, it is not something that belongs to a person, and doesn’t belong to... love is there. 		博姆：那它在哪里呢？

克：就是这样。 它必须在那里……现在等一下。 爱不是你的也不是我的，它不是个人的， 它不是属于某个人的某种东西， 它不属于……爱就在那里。
46:32 B: This is an important point. In one of the discussions you were saying that isolation does not belong to any person, it is something that everybody can look at whereas we tend to think of isolation as my personal problem. 博姆：这是很重要的一点。在一次讨论中， 你说过孤立不属于 任何人，它是一种每个人都可以去看的东西， 但我们总是倾向于把孤立当成我个人的问题。
46:49 K: It is common ground for all of us. 克：它是我们所有人共同的背景。
46:51 B: But it may be a clue because, somebody is looking for love and says this must be my love, you have got it and I haven’t, that is the way of thinking. 博姆：但这可能是一个线索，因为 有人在寻找爱，然后说 这肯定就是我的爱了，你拥有了它，而我没有， 这就是通常的想法。
47:00 K: No. Intelligence is not personal. 克：不。智慧不是个人的。
47:04 B: But again it goes contrary to the whole of our thinking. Everybody says this person is intelligent and that one is not. If I have lack of intelligence, I must acquire it for myself. So this may be one of the barriers to the whole thing, that behind the ordinary everyday thought there is a deeper thought of mankind, that we are all divided and these various qualities either belong to us or don’t belong to us. 博姆：但是这又跟我们的整个想法是相反的。 每个人都说这个人有智慧，那个人没有。 如果我缺乏智慧，我就必须为自己得到它。 所以这可能就是这整件事的障碍之一， 每个普通人的思想背后 都有着人类更深层的想法， 认为我们都是彼此分开的，各式各样的这些品质 要么属于我们，要么不属于我们。
47:35 K: Quite. It is the fragmented mind that invents all this. 克：没错。是这颗支离破碎的心发明了这一切。
47:40 B: Invented, but we have picked it up verbally and non-verbally from childhood and by implication, therefore it pervades, it is the ground of our thoughts, of our perceptions. So this has to be questioned. 博姆：是发明了，但是我们从语言和非语言层面 从小通过各种暗示把它捡了起来， 因此它占据了主导，成了我们的思想、 我们感知的基础。 所以这一点必须被质疑。
47:58 K: We have questioned it. Grief is not my grief, grief is human. 克：我们质疑过它了。 悲伤不是我的悲伤，悲伤是人类的。
48:05 B: But how are people to see that because a person caught in grief feels it is his grief. Doesn’t that seem right? 博姆：但是人们如何才能看到这点， 因为一个困在悲伤中的人觉得那是他的悲伤。 难道看起来不是这样吗？
48:15 K: Yes, sir. I think it is partly because of our education, partly our society, tradition. 克：是的，先生。我认为一部分是因为我们的教育， 一部分是因为我们的社会、传统。
48:21 B: But it is also implicit in our whole way of thinking. 博姆：但是它也隐含在了我们的整个思维方式里。
48:23 K: Quite right. So we come back. 克：没错。所以我们又回来了。
48:27 B: Then we have to jump out of that. 博姆：那么我们得从里面跳出来。
48:30 K: Yes. But ‘jump out of that’ becomes a problem and then what am I to do? 克：是的。但从中跳出来又变成了一个问题， 那我该怎么办？
48:36 B: But perhaps we can see that love is not personal, love does not belong to anybody any more than any other quality does. 博姆：但是也许我们可以看到爱不是个人的， 爱不属于任何人， 就像其他任何一种品质一样。
48:43 K: Earth is not English earth or French earth, earth is earth. 克：地球不是英国的地球或者法国的地球， 地球就是地球。
48:48 B: I was thinking of an example in physics: if a scientist is studying an element such as sodium, it’s not he studies his sodium and somebody else studies his and they somehow compare notes. 博姆：我刚才想到了一个物理学里的例子：如果一个科学家 在研究一种元素，比如钠，其实并不是 他研究他的钠，别人研究他自己的钠 然后他们再交换意见。
49:01 K: Quite. Sodium is sodium. 克：没错。钠就是钠而已。
49:04 B: Sodium is sodium universally. 博姆：钠就是钠，在哪里都一样。
49:05 So we have to say love is love universally. 所以我们必须说爱就是爱，放之四海而皆准。
49:08 K: Yes. But you see, my mind refuses to see that because I am so terribly personal, terribly ‘me and my problems’ and all that. I refuse to let that go. When you say sodium is sodium, it is very simple, I can see that. But when you say to me, grief is common to all of us. 克：是的。但是你知道，我的心拒绝看到这一点， 因为我是如此严重地以个人为本， 完全就关注“我”和“我的问题”，诸如此类。 我拒绝放开这些。 当你说钠就是钠，那很简单，那个我能明白。 但是当你对我说，悲伤对我们所有人来说都是共同的。
49:38 B: It’s the same grief.

K: Sodium is grief! 		博姆：那是同一个悲伤。

克：钠就是悲伤！
49:43 B: This can’t be done with time, but it took quite a while for mankind to realise that sodium is sodium. 博姆：这点不能借助时间来理解，但它花去了人类 好长时间才认识到钠就是钠。
49:59 K: That's what I want to find out, is love something that is common to all of us? 克：这就是我想探明的， 爱是不是一种对我们所有人来说共同的东西？
50:13 B: Well, in so far as it exists it has to be common. 博姆：哦，只要它存在，它就必然是共同的。
50:17 K: Of course. 克：当然。
50:18 B: It many not exist but if it does it has to be that way. 博姆：它可能并不存在，但是如果它确实存在，就只能是那样。
50:21 K: I am not sure it does not exist. Like compassion, is not ‘I am compassionate’ compassion is there, it's something... – not 'me compassionate'. 克：我不确定它并不存在。 就像慈悲，不是我很慈悲， 是慈悲就在那里，它是某种……而不是“我慈悲”。
50:33 B: If we say compassion is the same as sodium, it is universal, then every person’s compassion is the same. 博姆：如果我们说慈悲就跟钠一样，是放之四海而皆准的， 那么每个人的慈悲都是一样的。
50:41 K: And compassion, love, and intelligence. You can’t be compassionate without intelligence. 克：慈悲，还有爱，和智慧。 没有智慧你就不可能慈悲。
50:48 B: So we say intelligence is universal too. But we have methods of testing intelligence in particular people.

K: Oh, no! 		博姆：所以我们说智慧也是普世的。 但是我们有方法来测试某个特定的人 身上的智慧。

克：噢，不！
50:59 B: But that is all part of the thing that is getting in the way. 博姆：但这些都是拦路障碍的一部分。
51:02 K: Part of this divisive, fragmentary way of thinking. And thinking is fragmentary. 克：这种分裂性的、支离破碎的思维方式的一部分。 而思想就是支离破碎的。
51:10 B: There may be holistic thinking, we are not yet in it. 博姆：也许存在整体的思考，我们还没有身处其中。
51:15 K: Yes. Then holistic thinking is not thinking, it is some other factor. So if love is common to all of us, why am I blind to it? 克：是的。那样整体的思考就不再是思考了， 而是某种别的因素了。 所以，如果爱对我们所有人来说都是共同的，我为什么对它视而不见？
51:40 B: I think partly the mind boggles, it just refuses to consider such a fantastic change of concept, of way of looking. 博姆：我认为一部分原因是心在退缩， 它就是拒绝考虑这样一种不可思议的观念的改变， 看待方式的改变。
51:49 K: But you just now said, sodium is sodium! 克：可是你刚才说了，钠就是钠！
51:53 B: You have got a lot of evidence for that in all sorts of experiments. 博姆：对那个你在各种实验中 得到了大量的证据。
52:01 K: Salt is salt, whether it is English salt or... 克：盐就是盐，它是英国盐还是
52:06 B: But that was built up through a lot of work and experience now we can’t do that here with love, right? 博姆：但那是建立在大量的工作和经验基础之上的， 而在这我们无法对爱也那么做，对吗？

克：噢，不行！你不能……爱不是知识。
52:18 B: You can’t go into a laboratory and prove that love is love. 博姆：你不能走进一间实验室去证明爱就是爱。
52:25 K: Why does one’s mind refuse to accept a very obvious factor, why? Is it the fear of letting my old values, standards, opinions, to let go? But again – you follow? 克：为什么一个人的心拒绝接受 一个非常明显的事实，为什么？ 是不是因为害怕放开我旧有的价值观、标准、 观点，害怕放手？可是又——你明白吗？
52:49 B: Probably something deeper. It's hard to get pinned down but it isn’t any of those simple things. That's partial explanations. 博姆：可能有某种更深层的东西。很难把它明确出来， 但它完全不属于那么简单的事。 这是一部分解释。
52:58 K: Superficial explanation, I know that Is the deep-rooted anxiety, or the longing to be totally secure? 克：表面的解释，这个我知道。 是不是因为根深蒂固的焦虑， 或者渴望彻底安全？
53:19 B: But that again is based on fragmentation. If we accept that we are fragmented we will inevitably want to be totally secure. Right? Because being fragmented you are always in danger. 博姆：但那还是建立在支离破碎之上的。 如果我们接受了我们是支离破碎的，我们就不可避免地 想要彻底的安全。对吗？ 因为如果是破碎的，你就一直身处危险当中。
53:31 K: So is that the root of it? 克：所以这就是它的根源吗？
53:34 This urge, this demand, this longing to be totally secure in my relationship with everything, to be certain? 想要彻底安全的这种冲动，这种需要，这种渴望， 想在自己与一切的关系中都保持确定？
53:48 B: Yes, but you have often said that the search for security could be reasonable in the sense that real security is found in nothingness. 博姆：是的，但你经常说对安全的追求 可以是合理的，说的是 可以在空无中找到真正的安全。
53:58 K: In nothingness there is complete security. 克：在空无中有着彻底的安全。
54:01 B: It is not the demand for security which is wrong but the demand that the fragment be secure. The fragment cannot possibly be secure. 博姆：并不是想要安全有什么错， 而是想让那个碎片安全。 碎片不可能是安全的。
54:09 K: Each country trying to be secure it is not secure. 克：每个国家都想要安全，那就不安全了。
54:12 B: Complete security could be achieved if all the countries got together. 博姆：如果所有的国家都走到一起，彻底的安全就可能实现。
54:17 K: No tribalism, of course there would be. 克：没有了部落主义，当然就会有安全。
54:20 B: The way you put it it sounds as if we should live eternally in insecurity. 博姆：你的说法听起来好像 我们将会永远活在不安全当中。
54:26 K: No. We made that very clear. 克：不。这个我们已经说得很清楚了。
54:30 B: It makes sense to ask for security but we are going about it the wrong way. 博姆：寻求安全是合理的， 但是我们的方式错了。
54:35 K: Yes, that’s right. How do you convey that love is universal, not personal, to a man who has lived completely in the narrow groove of personal achievement? 克：是的，是这样的。 你如何把“爱是普世的，不是个人的” 传达给一个完全活在 狭隘的个人成就的窠臼当中的人？
55:01 B: The first point is, will he question his narrow, his unique personality? 博姆：首先的一点是，他会不会质疑 他狭隘的、独特的个性？
55:10 K: They question it – I have discussed this so much – they question it, they see the logic of it, Curiously, people who have been very serious in these matters have tried to find the wholeness of life through starvation, through torture – every kind of way. They haven’t, they imagine they have. I mean you can’t apprehend or perceive or be the whole, through torture. Torture includes discipline, etc., you know all that. So what shall we do? I have a brother who refuses to see all this. And as I like him, as I have lived with him, I have a great affection for him, I want him to move out of it. And I have tried to communicate with him verbally and sometimes non-verbally, by a gesture, by a look, but all this is still from the outside. And perhaps that is the reason why he resists. Being my brother, for whom I have a great affection, if I can help him – I won’t use the word ‘help’, point out that in himself this flame can be awakened, which means he must listen to me. Back again. But my brother refuses to listen! 克：他们质疑了，这点我讨论的太多了， 他们质疑了，他们明白了其中的逻辑， 他们明白了这一切当中的道理，但依然 奇怪的是，对这些问题非常认真的人 却试着通过忍饥挨饿， 通过折磨，通过各种方式去找到生命的完整。 他们没有找到，他们想象自己找到了。 我是说，你无法 通过折磨来领会、洞察或者成为整体。 折磨包括了戒律，等等，这些你都知道。 那我们该怎么办？ 我有一个兄弟，他拒绝看到这一切。 而由于我喜欢他，我一直和他一起生活， 我对他有着深深的关爱，我想让他从中脱离出来。 我试过用语言跟他交流， 有时候用非语言的方式，用手势，用眼神， 但这一切依然是来自于外在的。 也许这就是他抗拒的原因。 因为他是我的兄弟，我对他有着深深的关爱， 如果我能帮助他——我不会用“帮助”这个词——跟他指出来 他内心可以唤醒这团火焰， 那就意味着他必须听我说。 又回来了。但是我的兄弟拒绝倾听！
57:53 B: It seems that there are some actions that are not possible. If a person is caught in a certain thought such as fragmentation, then he can’t change it because there are a lot of other thoughts behind it supposedly he doesn’t know. He is not actually free to take an action there because of the whole structure of thought that holds him. We have to find some place where he is free to act, to move which is not controlled by the conditioning. 博姆：看起来有些行动就是不可能的。 如果一个人困在某个想法 比如支离破碎当中，那么他就不能改变它， 因为那个想法背后还有很多其他的想法， 可能他并不知道。 他并不能真正自由地在那里采取行动， 因为有囚禁着他的那整个思想结构。 我们得找到某个地方，在那里他可以自由行动、活动， 而没有被制约所控制。
58:28 K: So how do I – I would use the word ‘help’ with great caution – help my brother? He knows my affection for him, he is aware of my... all the rest of it. What is the root of all this? We said becoming – all that is verbal, all that can be explained in ten different ways, the cause, the effect and all the rest of it. After explaining all this, he says, ‘You have left me where I am.' And my intelligence, my affection, love, says ‘I can’t let him go.' I can’t say, ‘Well, go to hell’ and move off. I can’t let him go. Which means, am I putting pressure on him? 克：那么，我要如何——我会十分谨慎地使用“帮助”这个词—— 帮助我的兄弟？ 他知道我对他的爱， 他明白我的……诸如此类。 这一切的根源是什么？ 我们说过成为——那些都是说辞， 那些可以用十种不同的方式来解释， 原因，结果，诸如此类。 解释了那一切之后，他说， “你把我扔在了我现在的地方。” 而我的智慧、我的关怀、爱 说，“我不能抛下他不管。” 我不能说，“好了，去死吧”然后走掉。 我不能丢下他不管。 也就是说，我是在给他压力吗？
1:00:02 I am not putting any kind of pressure, any kind of reward, none of that. Ah, yes. My responsibility is, I can't let another human being go. It's not the responsibility of duty all that filthy stuff. It is the responsibility of intelligence which says all that. 我没有施加任何一种压力、 任何一种奖励，一个都没有。 啊，对了。我的责任就是， 我不能扔下另一个人不管。 这不是义务那种责任，那些肮脏的东西。它是 说出那一切的智慧的责任。
1:00:36 B: That is clear that the whole thing would have no meaning if you would let him go. Then it would be going back into fragmentation. 博姆：很显然，整件事情 就没有意义了，如果你丢下他不管的话。 然后就会回到支离破碎中去。
1:00:47 K: There is a tradition in India, and probably in Tibet, there is the called Maitreya Buddha who took a vow that he would not become the ultimate Buddha 克：印度有一种传统，可能西藏也有， 有所谓的“弥勒佛”， 他发过誓不会成为最终极的佛陀， 除非他也解放了其他人
1:01:12 B: Altogether. 博姆：全部一起。
1:01:21 K: You see, that tradition hasn’t changed anything. How can one, if he has that intelligence, that compassion, that love, – which is not of a country, or a person or ideal, saviour, all that nonsense – but has that purity of that... Can that be transmitted to another? Or living with him, talking to him – you see, it all becomes mechanical. 克：你瞧，那个传统没有带来任何改变。 一个人如何才能， 如果他有那份智慧、那种慈悲、那份爱， 不是对某个国家、某个人或者理想、救世主 那些荒唐事的爱，而是拥有那份纯粹的 那种东西可以传递给另一个人吗？ 还是说，与他一起生活，跟他谈话，你知道，一切都变得机械了。
1:02:57 B: Would you say this question has never really been solved? 博姆：你会不会说，这个问题从来没有真正解决过？
1:03:02 K: I should think so, sir. But we must solve it. It has not been solved but our intelligence says, ‘Solve it!’ No, I think intelligence doesn’t say solve it, intelligence says, these are the facts. And perhaps some will capture it. 克：我会这么认为，先生。 但我们必须解决它。 它还没有得到解决，但是我们的智慧说， 解决它！ 不，我认为智慧不会说解决它， 智慧会说，这些是事实。 然后可能有人会领会它。
1:04:05 B: It seems to me that there are really two factors: one is the preparation by reason to show that it all makes no sense, but then, from there, possibly some will capture it. 博姆：在我看来，实际上有两个因素： 一个是通过理性做准备，说明那些都毫无意义， 但是然后，从那里出发，可能有些人就能领会它。
1:04:21 K: We have done that sir. You started telling me all this, you laid the map out very clearly and I have seen it very clearly, all the rivers, the conflicts, the misery, the confusion, the insecurity, the becoming, all that is very, very, very clear. At the end of the chapter I am back at the beginning. Or I have got a glimpse of it and that becomes my craving to capture that glimpse, hold on to it and not lose it. Then that becomes a memory All the nightmare begins. 克：我们这么做了，先生。你开始告诉我这一切， 你非常清楚地摊开了地图， 我也看得很清楚， 所有的河流，所有的冲突，痛苦，困惑， 不安全，成为，这些都非常非常清楚了。 可到了这一章的最后，我又回到了开头。 要么，我瞥到了一眼，然后那就变成了我的渴望， 想要捕获哪一瞥，紧抓住它不放。 然后它就变成了一个记忆， 所有的噩梦就都开始了。
1:05:09 In your showing me the map very clearly you have also pointed out to me something much deeper than that, which is love. And by your person, by your reasoning, by your logic, I am groping, seeking after that. But the weight of my body, my brain, my tradition draws me back. So it is a constant battle. You follow sir? And I think the whole thing is so wrong. 在你非常清楚地把地图跟我展示出来的同时，你也 向我指出了某种深刻得多的东西， 那就是爱。 而通过你这个人，通过你的说理、你的逻辑， 我在探索着、寻找着那个东西。 但是我的身体、头脑和传统的重负 拖了我的后腿。 所以这是一场不停的战斗。你明白吗，先生？ 我认为这整件事情都错得离谱。
1:06:04 B: What is wrong? 博姆：怎么错了？
1:06:06 K: The way we are living, the whole thing is so wrong. 克：我们的生活方式，这整件事都如此错误。
1:06:12 B: I think many people must see that by now. At least a fair number. 博姆：我认为很多人现在肯定已经看到这一点了。 至少有不少人了。
1:06:19 K: We were talking once in Ojai whether man has taken a wrong turn, entered into a valley where there is no escape. That can’t be, sir, that is too depressing, too appalling. 克：我们之前在欧亥谈到了 人类是不是转错了一个弯， 进入了一条没有出路的山谷。 不能这样，先生，这太令人沮丧，太可怕了。
1:06:48 B: Some people might object, if you say that, the mere fact that it is appalling does not make it untrue. I think you would have to say some stronger reason why you feel that to be untrue. 博姆：有些人可能会反对，如果你那么说的话， “那很可怕”这个事实本身并不会让它显得不对。 我认为你必须说出 一些更强有力的原因，你为什么觉得那是不对的。
1:07:03 Do you perceive, in human nature, some possibility of a real change? 你认为人类的本性中存在发生真正改变的可能性吗？

克：当然，先生，否则……

博姆：那将毫无意义。
1:07:11 K: Monkeys, machines! You see, that faculty to radical change is attributed to some outside agency and therefore we look to that and get lost in that. If we don’t look to anybody and be completely free from all that that solitude is common to all of us. It is not an isolation, it is an obvious fact when you see all this and say, this so ugly, unreal, so stupid, you are naturally... you are naturally alone. And that sense of aloneness is common. 克：猴子，机器！ 你瞧，彻底改变的能力 被认为属于某些外部的代理， 所以我们指望他们，然后迷失在了其中。 如果我们不指望任何人， 然后彻底摆脱了那一切， 这种独自就是我们所有人共有的。 它不是一种孤立，这是一个显而易见的事实： 当你看清了这一切，然后说，这太丑陋了，太不真实了， 太愚蠢了，你自然就 你自然就独立。 这种独立也是共同的。
1:08:26 B: In the ordinary sense of loneliness each person feels it is his own loneliness. 博姆：在“孤独”通常的含义下， 每个人都觉得那是他自己的孤独。
1:08:33 K: Loneliness is not solitude, not aloneness, good Lord! 克：孤独不是独自，不是独立，我的天哪！
1:08:37 B: One could say that all the fundamental things are universal and therefore you are saying that whether you call it absolute, divine... 博姆：一个人可以说，所有这些根本的东西都是普世的， 所以你说， 当心灵深入探索，它就会进入某种普世的东西 无论你称之为“绝对”、“神圣”
1:08:53 K: That's right. And that is the problem, to make the mind go very, very deeply into itself. 克：没错。而这就是问题所在了， 让心灵非常非常深入地探究它自己。
1:09:01 B: One thing that occurred to me. When we start with our particular problem it is very shallow, then we go to something more general – you see, the word ‘general’ has the same root as to generate, the ‘genus’ is the coming generation. So as you go to something more general you are going to the depth of what is generated. Then, going from that, still further, the general is still limited because it is thought. 博姆：我想起了一件事。 当我们从我们特定的问题入手，那是非常肤浅的， 然后我们来到了某些更为总体的问题 ——你瞧，“总体”（‘general’）这个词的词根和“产生”（ generate）是一样的， “种属”（genus）指的是下一代。 所以当你来到某个更为总体的问题， 你就来到了问题产生的深层根源。 然后，从那里继续往下进行， 总体依然是局限的，因为它还是思想。
1:09:35 K: Thought, quite right. But sir, to go so profoundly it requires tremendous, not only courage, but the sense of constant pursuing the same stream. ‘diligence’, that is still too limited, right? 克：思想，没错。但是先生，要如此深入地探究， 需要巨大的——不只是勇气， 还有始终沿着同一条线索深入下去。

博姆：你可以称之为 “勤奋”，可那还是太局限了，对吗？
1:10:01 K: Yes, diligence is too limited. That goes with a religious mind in the sense that it is diligent in its action, in its thoughts, in its activities and so on, but that is still limited. I think that is right, sir. If the mind can go from the particular to the general and from the general... 克：对，勤奋太局限了。 这和宗教心灵是一起的，也就是说 它是勤奋的，在它的行动中、思想中、 行为中等等，但那依然是有限的。 我认为这是对的，先生。 如果心能够从 个别的走向总体的，然后从总体的
1:10:29 B: To the absolute, to the universal. 博姆：走向绝对的，走向普世的。
1:10:31 K: ...move away from that. 克：……然后再从那里离开。
1:10:35 B: Many people would say that is all very abstract and has nothing to do with daily life. 博姆：很多人会说这些都太抽象了， 跟日常生活没什么关系。
1:10:42 K: I know. It's the most practical thing, not an abstraction. 克：我知道。这是最实际的事，而不是一个抽象的概念。
1:10:47 B: In fact the particular is the abstraction. 博姆：实际上个别的才是抽象的。
1:10:49 K: Yes, the particular is the most dangerous. 克：是的，个别的是最危险的。
1:10:52 B: It is also the most abstract because you only get to the particular by abstracting from the whole, right? But that may be part of it, we want something that really affects us in daily life, we don’t just want to get ourselves lost in talking. They say all these vaporous generalities don’t interest us. 博姆：它也是最抽象的， 因为你只有从整体中抽取 才能来到个别问题，对吗？ 但那可能只是问题的一部分， 我们想要的是能真正影响我们日常生活的东西， 我们不想只是让自己迷失在高谈阔论里。 他们说这些虚头巴脑的普遍性我们不感兴趣。

克：这是些抽象的东西
1:11:19 B: Abstractions, and we are getting into the real solid concrete facts of daily life. Now it is true that it must work in daily life, but daily life does not contain the solution of its problems. 博姆：抽象的东西，而我们要进入到日常生活 那些具体实在的事实中去。 确实这些必须在日常生活中发挥作用， 但是日常生活并不包含其自身问题的解决之道。
1:11:32 K: No. Daily life is the general life. 克：没错。日常生活就是总体的生活。
1:11:36 B: The general and the particular. The problems which arise in daily life cannot be solved there, as the human problems. 博姆：总体的和个别的。 日常生活中出现的问题 也就是人类的问题，无法在那里得到解决。
1:11:44 K: That’s right, sir. From the particular move to the general, from the general move away, still deeper, and there perhaps is this purity of that thing called compassion, love and intelligence. But that means giving your mind to this, your heart, your whole being must be involved in this. 克：没错，先生。 从个别的来到总体的， 再离开总体的来到更深层， 那里也许就有那个纯粹的事物， 叫做慈悲、爱和智慧。 但那意味着对此付出你的头脑、你的心， 你的整个存在必须都投入其中。
1:12:23 Well, we better stop – quarter past five. Sorry. We have gone on for a long time. Have we reached somewhere? 好了，我们最好停下了，五点一刻了。 抱歉。我们已经谈了很长时间了。 我们有所进展了吗？
1:12:33 B: Possibly so, yes.

K: I think so. 		博姆：可能是这样，是的。

克：我想是的。