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OJBR80CB9 - 衰老与脑细胞
与大卫▪博姆的第九次对谈
1980年6月1日，英国布洛克伍德公园



0:23 Krishnamurti: Sir, I would like to talk over with you, and perhaps with Narayan too, what is happening to the human brain. I will go into it a little bit. 克里希那穆提：先生，我想和你好好探讨一番， 或许也可以和那拉扬一起， 探讨一下人类的大脑发生着什么。 我会先来稍作阐述。
0:42 You have a highly cultivated civilisation and yet at the same time barbarism, great selfishness clothed in all kinds of spiritual garbs – holy spirit, holy ghost, etc., but deeply, deep down, heightening, frightening selfishness. And man’s brain has been evolving through millennia and it has come to this point: divisive, destructive, and so on, which we all know. So, I was wondering whether the human brain, not a particular brain but the human brain, is deteriorating. Whether it is capable of revival, renewal, or it is a slow, steady decline? And whether it is possible in one’s lifetime to bring about in itself a total renewal from all this, a renewal that will be pristine, original, unpolluted? I've been wondering about it, and I thought we need to discuss it. 我们拥有一种高度教化的文明， 然而同时也有野蛮行为 和严重的自私自利，尽管披着各式各样灵性的外衣， 圣灵，圣魂，诸如此类， 但是在内心深处， 依然有着强烈的、可怕的自私自利。 而人类的大脑经过数千年的进化 已经到了这个地步： 分裂性、破坏性严重，诸如此类，这些我们都知道。 所以，我想知道人类的大脑 ——不是某个特定的大脑而是人类的大脑—— 是否正在退化。 它有没有能力焕发活力、新生， 还是只能缓慢地、逐渐地衰退？ 还有，它有没有可能在人的一生中 脱离那一切，为自身带来一场彻底的新生， 一场崭新的、原初的、一尘不染的新生？ 我一直好奇这一点， 我也认为我们需要来探讨一下这点。
3:04 I think the human brain is not a particular brain, it doesn’t belong to me or to anyone else, it is the human brain which has evolved ten million, or five million, or three million years. And in that evolution it has gathered tremendous experience, knowledge, and all the cruelties and the vulgarities and the brutalities of selfishness. Is there a possibility of it... sloughing off, throwing off all this and becoming something else. Because apparently it is functioning in patterns, whether it is a religious pattern or a scientific pattern or a business pattern or a family pattern, it is always operating, functioning in a very small narrow circle. And those circles are clashing against each other. And there seems to be no end to this! 我认为人类的大脑并不是一个个别的大脑， 它不属于我或者别的任何人， 它是人类的大脑，经过了一千万年、 500万年或者300万年的进化。 而在这场进化中它积攒了 海量的经验、知识和各种残忍、 粗鄙的特性以及自私的暴虐行径。 它有没有可能 蜕去、丢掉这一切然后变成另一种东西。 因为显然它运转于各种模式当中， 无论是宗教模式、科学模式 还是商业模式、家庭模式，它始终 在一个非常狭小的圈子里运行、运转。 而那些圈子之间也在相互冲撞。 而且这种状况似乎看不到尽头！
4:50 So, what will break down this forming of patterns, not falling into other new patterns, but breaking down the whole system of patterns, whether pleasant or unpleasant? After all, the brain has had so many shocks, so many challenges, so many pressures on it and if that brain is not capable, in itself, to renew, to rejuvenate itself, there is very little hope. 那么，什么能打破形成模式的这种机制， 不是落入另一些新模式当中， 而是打破模式的整个体系， 无论那些模式令人愉快还是不快？ 毕竟，大脑经受了如此之多的打击、 如此之多的挑战、如此之多的压力， 如果大脑本身没有能力更新自己、 让自己恢复活力，那就没什么希望了。
5:58 B: One difficulty is that if you are thinking of the brain with its structure, we cannot get into the structure, physically. 博姆：困难之一就在于 如果你从大脑自身的结构来考虑， 我们是无法从生理上进入那个结构内部的。
6:11 K: Physically you cannot. I know, we have discussed this. So what is it to do? The brain specialists can look at it, take a dead brain of a human being and examine it, but it doesn’t solve the problem. Right?

B: No. 		克：从生理上你做不到。我知道，这点我们已经讨论过了。 那它该怎么办呢？ 大脑专家可以查看它， 取一个人已经死亡的大脑来研究， 但那解决不了问题。对吗？

博姆：对。
6:34 K: So what is a human being to do, knowing it cannot be changed from outside? The scientist, the brain specialist, the nerve specialist, neurologist, explain the thing but it is there, their explanation, their investigation, is not going to solve this. Right? 克：那一个人该怎么办， 既然知道无法从外在来改变大脑？ 科学家、脑科专家、神经专家、神经病学家 解释了这样东西，可问题还在，他们的解释、 他们的研究解决不了这个问题。对吗？
7:02 B: There is no evidence that it can. 博姆：没有能够解决的证据。
7:05 K: All right. I’ll put it a little more congenially. 克：好的。我会用更好理解的方式来阐述。
7:11 B: Some people may have thought so. 博姆：有些人可能认为能解决。
7:14 Some people who do bio-feedback think that they can influence the brain by connecting an instrument to the electrical potentials in the skull and look at the result. And you can change your heartbeat and your blood pressure, etc. So, they have raised the hope that something could be done. 有些研究生物反馈的人 认为他们能影响大脑， 通过仪器接驳颅内的电位， 然后观察结果如何。 而你确实可以改变你的心跳和你的血压，等等。 所以，他们带来了一些希望：还是可以做些事情的。
7:35 K: But they are not succeeding. 克：但他们并没有成功。
7:36 B: They are not getting very far. 博姆：他们并没有取得太大的进展。
7:39 K: But we can’t wait for these scientists and bio-feedbackers, sorry to put it that way, to solve the problem. So what shall we do? 克：可是我们等不及那些科学家 和生物反馈研究者——抱歉这么说—— 来解决这个问题了。那我们该怎么办？
7:54 B: The question is whether the brain can be aware of its own structure. 博姆：问题在于大脑能否意识到它自身的结构。
7:59 K: Yes, that is the first question. Can the brain be aware of its own movement? And the other question is: can the brain, not only be aware of its own movement, can the brain itself have enough energy to break all patterns and move out of it? 克：是的，这是第一个问题。 大脑能否觉知它自身的活动？ 另一个问题则是，大脑能否 不仅觉知它自身的活动， 而且，大脑本身有没有足够的能量 打破所有的模式然后从中脱离出来？
8:40 B: You have to ask whether the brain can do that. To what extent is the brain free to break out of patterns? 博姆：你得问一问大脑能不能做到这一点。 大脑有多大程度上的突破各种模式的自由呢？
8:49 K: What do you mean? 克：你的意思是？
8:52 B: If the brain is caught in a pattern, it may not be free. 博姆：如果大脑困在模式中，它就不会是自由的。
8:57 K: Apparently it is, apparently!

B: As far as we can see. But, it may not be free to break out. It may not have the power. 		克：显然是这样，显然！

博姆：据我们所见是这样的。 但是，它可能就没有突破的自由了。 它也许没有那个能量。
9:06 K: That's what I said, not enough energy, not enough power. 克：这就是我刚才说的，没有足够的能量，没有足够的力量。
9:12 B: It may not be able to take the action needed to get out, whatever that means. 博姆：它也许无力采取脱离出来 所需要的行动，无论那是什么样的行动。
9:17 K: So, it has become its own prisoner. Then what? 克：所以，它变成了自己的囚徒。然后呢？
9:24 B: Then that's the end.

K: Is that the end? 		博姆：然后就完了。

克：这就完了吗？
9:27 B: If that is true that's the end. If the brain cannot break out perhaps people would choose another way, to solve the problem. 博姆：如果真是这样，那就是完了。如果大脑无法突破， 也许人们就会选择另一条路来解决这个问题。
9:38 Narayan: When we speak of the brain, in one sense the brain is connected to the senses and the nervous system, the feedback is there. Is there another instrument to which the brain is connected which has a different effect on the brain? 那拉扬：当我们谈到大脑， 一个意思是说大脑是与各个感官 和神经系统相连的，生理反馈就发生在那里。 有没有另外一种工具是和大脑相连的 同时对大脑具有不同的作用？
9:58 K: What do you mean by that? Some other factor? 克：你那么说是什么意思？另一个因素吗？
10:02 N: Some other factor in the human system itself. Because obviously through the senses the brain does get nourishment – seeing, various factors – but still that is not enough. Is there another internal factor which gives energy to the brain? 那拉扬：人体系统本身具有的另一个因素。 因为显然通过各个感官 大脑确实得到了滋养——视觉，各个因素—— 但仍然是不够的。 有没有另外一种内在的因素可以给大脑带来能量？
10:31 K: I think there is a... – I want to discuss this. The brain is constantly in occupation: worries, problems, holding on, attachment and so on, so it is constantly in a state of occupation. That may be the central factor. And if it is not in occupation does it go sluggish? That is one factor. If it is not in occupation can it maintain the energy that is required to break down the patterns? I don’t know if I am making myself clear. 克：我认为存在一种……我想讨论一下这个问题。 大脑一直是被占据的： 各种焦虑、问题、执着、依恋，等等， 所以它一直处于一种占据状态。 也许这就是那个核心因素。 而如果它不被占据，它会变得懒散吗？ 这是一个因素。如果它不被占据， 它能否保持所需的能量 来打破各种模式？ 我不知道有没有表达清楚。
11:24 B: Now, the first point is that if it is not occupied, somebody might think that it would just take it easy. 博姆：那么，第一点就是如果它不被占据， 有人可能就会认为它会掉以轻心。
11:33 K: No, then it becomes lazy. I don’t mean that. 克：不，那样的话它就变懒惰了。我说的不是那个意思。
11:37 B: If you mean not occupied but still active... then we have to go into what is the nature of the activity. 博姆：如果你是说不被占据可依然很活跃 那我们就得探讨一下那种活动的本质是什么了。
11:44 K: That’s what I want to go into. I mean, if this brain which is so occupied with conflicts, struggles, attachments, fears, pleasures, etc., and this occupation gives to the brain its own energy. If it is not occupied, will it become lazy, drugged, and so lose its elasticity as it were? Or if it doesn’t become lazy will that unoccupied state give to the brain the required energy to break? 克：那正是我想探究的。我的意思是， 如果这个大脑如此严重地被冲突、 挣扎、依恋、恐惧、快感等等所占据， 这种占据就给了大脑自身以能量。 如果它不被占据，它会变得懒惰、麻木 进而在一定程度上丧失自身的弹性吗？ 或者，如果它没有变懒惰， 那种未被占据的状态 会带给大脑突破所需的能量吗？
12:45 B: What makes you say that this will happen? Let's say something about the brain. We were discussing that when the brain is kept busy with intellectual activity and thought, then it does not decay and shrink. 博姆：是什么让你说这种情况会发生的？ 我们来说说大脑的情况。 我们之前探讨过，当大脑 因智力活动和思想而忙碌时， 它就不会衰败和萎缩。
13:04 K: As long as it is thinking, moving, living. 克：只要它在思考着、运动着、活着。
13:07 B: Thinking in a rational way, then it remains strong. 博姆：以理性的方式思考，它就会保持强健。
13:12 K: That is what I want to get at too. As long as it is functioning, moving, thinking rationally… 克：那也是我想说明的。 只要它在理性地运转、活动、思考
13:20 B: It remains strong. If it starts irrational movement then it breaks down. Also, if it gets caught in a routine it begins to die. 博姆：它会保持强健。 如果它开始进行不理性的活动，那么它就会损坏。 同样，如果它陷在例行公事里，它也会开始衰亡。
13:29 K: That’s it. If the brain is caught in a routine either the meditation routine, or the routine of the priests... 克：就是这样。如果大脑陷在例行公事里， 无论是冥想的惯例，还是牧师的惯例
13:40 B: Or the daily life of the farmer. 博姆：或者农民的日常生活。
13:42 K: …the farmer and so on, it must gradually become dull. 克：……农民以及其他人，就必然会逐渐变得迟钝。
13:50 B: Not only that but it seems to shrink physically. Perhaps some of the cells die. 博姆：不仅如此，它生理上似乎也在萎缩。 也许有些细胞会死掉。
13:57 K: That's what we discussed. Shrink physically. And the opposite to that is this eternal occupation, with business, as a lawyer, as a doctor, as a scientist, thinking, thinking, thinking – and we think that also, that prevents shrinking. 克：那就是我们之前探讨过的。生理上会萎缩。 而与之相反的情况则是这种永远 被事务占据的情况，作为一名律师、医生、科学家， 不停地思考、思考、思考， 我们也是这么认为的，认为那样能防止萎缩。
14:24 B: It does. At least experience seems to show it does, the measurements they made. 博姆：确实如此。至少经验似乎证明了确实如此， 他们的观测结果确实如此。
14:31 K: It does too. That’s it. Excuse the word ‘farmer’, we are not... 克：也确实如此。就是这样。 抱歉用到了“农民”这个词，我们并不是
14:38 B: Also the routine clerical worker, anybody who does a routine job. His brain starts to shrink after a certain age. That is what they discovered, and just as the body not being used the muscles begin to lose their… 博姆：例行公事的办公室职员也一样，做例行工作的任何人都一样。 他的大脑到了一定年纪就开始萎缩。 这是他们研究发现的，就跟身体的情况一样， 肌肉如果得不到使用就会开始失去它们的
14:55 K: …so take lots of exercises! 克：……所以要进行大量的锻炼！
15:00 B: They say exercise the body and exercise the brain. 博姆：他们说要锻炼身体，同时也要锻炼大脑。
15:10 K: If it is caught in any pattern, any routine, any directive too, it must shrink. 克：如果它陷入了任何模式、任何例行公事， 也包括任何指令，就必然会萎缩。
15:23 B: It is not clear why. Could we go into what makes it shrink? 博姆：为什么会这样并不清楚。我们能探究一下是什么让它萎缩的吗？
15:27 K: Ah, that is fairly simple. Because it is repetition. 克：啊，这很简单。因为那是重复。
15:32 B: Repetition is mechanical and doesn’t really use the full capacity of the brain. 博姆：重复是机械的，并没有真正 用到大脑的全部能力。
15:38 K: I have noticed the people who have spent years in meditation are the most dull people on earth! And also, those lawyers and professors, you can see them, there is ample evidence of all that. 克：我注意到花了无数个年头用来 冥想的那些人是世上最迟钝的人了！ 同样，那些律师和教授， 你能看到他们，这种情况有太多的例证了。
16:00 N: The only thing that article seems to say is that rational thinking postpones senility. But rational thinking itself becomes a pattern at some time. 那拉扬：那篇文章似乎只说了一件事： 理性思考能够延缓衰老。 但是理性思考本身在某些时候也会变成模式。
16:11 B: Well, it might. They didn’t carry it that far but that rational thinking pursued in a narrow area might become part of the pattern too. But, if you say there is some other way... Suppose we clear it up about the body first. If somebody does a lot of exercise with the body it remains strong, but it might become mechanical and therefore it would have a bad effect. 博姆：哦，也许会的。他们并没有讲到那个层面， 但是在一个狭窄的范围内进行的理性思考 有可能也会变成模式的一部分。 但是，如果你说还有别的方式 假设我们先来澄清身体方面的问题。 如果有个人进行了大量的身体锻炼， 身体保持强健，但那可能也会变得机械 因此也会产生不良影响。
16:46 K: You see, yoga... 克：你瞧，瑜伽
16:51 N: That’s what I was about to say. What about the various – if I may use the word – religious instruments the traditional religious instruments, yoga, tantra, kundalini, etc. 那拉扬：这正是我刚才打算说的。那各种宗教方法呢？ ——如果我可以使用“宗教”一词的话—— 传统的宗教方法，瑜伽，密宗，昆达里尼，等等。
17:06 K: Oh, they must shrink. Because you can see what is happening. Yoga, take for example, used to be… It was not vulgarised, if I may use that word. It was kept strictly to the very, very few, who were not concerned about kundalini and all that stuff, concerned with leading a moral, ethical, so-called spiritual life, with ordinary exercise, but not this fantastic gymnastics. You see I want to get at the root of this. 克：噢，它们必定会造成萎缩。 因为你可以看到如今发生的事。 以瑜伽为例，它过去 并没有如此粗俗化，如果我可以用这个词的话。 过去它只被非常严格地传授给极少数人， 那些人并不关心昆达里尼之类的东西， 他们只关心过一种道德的、所谓的精神生活， 通过普通的练习， 而不是这种奇形怪状的体操。 你瞧我想说明这个问题的根本。
18:02 B: I think there is something related to this. It seems to me that before man organised into organised societies, he was living close to nature and it was not possible to live in a routine, but it was insecure, completely insecure. 博姆：我认为有件事跟这个问题有关。 在我看来，人类在建成 有组织的社会之前，他的生活是接近大自然的， 因而不可能生活在惯例中， 但那种生活不安全，完全没保障。
18:17 K: So, are we saying - that's what I want to get at - are we saying the brain becomes extraordinarily... No, it is not caught in a pattern, because... if the brain itself lives in a state of uncertainty, without becoming neurotic. 克：所以，我们是不是说——这就是我想说明的—— 我们是不是说大脑变得格外……不， 它没有困在模式中，因为 如果大脑自身 活在一种不确定状态中，同时又没有变得神经质。
18:43 B: That has to be more clear - not becoming neurotic - as uncertainty becomes a form of neurosis. I would rather say the brain lives without having certainty, without demanding certainty, without demanding certain knowledge. 博姆：这一点得说得更清楚些——没有变得神经质—— 因为不确定性会变成一种神经质。 我宁愿说成大脑活着但不抱有确定性， 不想得到确定性，也不想得到某些知识。
19:04 K: So are we saying that knowledge also withers the brain? 克：那么我们是不是说 知识也会让大脑萎缩？
19:14 B: When it is repetitious and becomes mechanical, yes. 博姆：当它是重复的并且变得机械的时候，是的。
19:18 K: But knowledge itself?

B: We have to be careful there. I think that knowledge has a tendency to become mechanical, that is, to get fixed. But we could be always learning. 		克：但是知识本身呢？

博姆：这里我们得小心了。 我认为知识有一种 变得机械也就是变得固化的倾向。 但是我们可以一直在学习。
19:37 K: But learning from a centre, learning as an accumulative process. 克：但那是从一个中心学习， 那种学习是一个积累过程。
19:45 B: Learning with something fixed. You accept something as fixed and you learn from there. But if we were to be learning without holding anything permanently fixed... 博姆：带着固定的东西来学习。 你把某些东西当作固定的接受下来，然后从那里开始学习。 但是，如果我们要学习却不抓住 任何永远固定的东西
19:57 K: That is, learning and not adding. Can you do that? 克：也就是，学习却不添加。你能这么做吗？
20:03 B: I think that to a certain extent we have to lose, we have to drop our knowledge. Knowledge may be valid up to a point and then it ceases to be valid, it gets in the way. You could say that our civilisation is collapsing from too much knowledge. 博姆：我认为到了一定程度我们必须得丢弃， 我们必须抛下我们的知识。 知识到某个程度可能是有效的， 然后就不再有效，而是变成了障碍。 你可以说我们的文明 正在崩塌，就是因为有过多的知识。
20:22 We don’t drop what is in the way. 我们没有抛开那些变成了障碍的东西。
20:26 N: Many forms of knowledge are additive. Unless you know the previous thing you can’t do the next thing. Would you say that kind of knowledge is repetitive? 那拉扬：很多种形式的知识都是累加的。 除非你知道之前的事情，否则你没法做下面的事情。 你会说这种知识是重复性的吗？
20:36 B: No. I think as long as you are learning. But if you hold some principle fixed and say it cannot change, if you hold the centre fixed, yourself, or anything, fixed, then that knowledge becomes mechanical. But if you say you have got to keep on learning. 博姆：不会。我想只要你还在学习就好。 但是如果你抓住某些固定的原则不放 并且说它不能改变，如果你抓住那个固定的中心、 你自己或者任何固定的东西不放， 那种知识就变成机械的了。 但是，如果你说你得继续学习
20:57 K: Learning what?

B: Whatever you are doing. 		克：学习什么？

博姆：你在做的任何事。
20:59 B: For example, suppose you have to make a living. People must organise the society and do all kinds of things, they need knowledge. 例如，假设你得谋生。 人们必须组织起社会，然后做各种各样的事情， 他们就需要知识。
21:09 K: That’s knowledge. But there you add more and more. 克：那是知识。但是在那里你可以添加越来越多的知识。
21:11 B: That’s right, but you may also get rid of some. If you don’t need it. Some gets in the way. So, it is continually moving, right? 博姆：没错，可是你可能也会丢掉一些。 如果你不再需要它的话。有些知识变成了障碍。 所以，它是一直在变动的，对吗？
21:20 K: But apart from that, knowledge itself. 克：但是除此之外，还有认识本身。
21:28 B: You mean knowledge without this content? 博姆：你是说没有这些内容的认识吗？
21:33 K: Yes, the knowing mind. 克：是的，正在认知的心。
21:35 B: Mind which merely wants knowledge, just for its own sake? 博姆：只是为了自身的缘故而想要认知的心？
21:47 K: I want to question, if I may, the whole idea of having knowledge. 克：如果可以，我想质疑 这整个拥有知识的想法。
21:56 B: Yes, but again it is not too clear because you accept that we need knowledge. 博姆：好的，但这点还是不太清楚， 因为你也接受我们需要知识。
22:00 K: Of course, at a certain level. 克：当然，在一定层面上。
22:01 B: What kind of knowledge is it that you are questioning? 博姆：那你质疑的是哪种知识呢？
22:08 K: I am questioning the experience that leaves knowledge, leaves a mark. 克：我质疑的是会留下知识、 留下痕迹的经验。
22:17 B: The experience of driving a car – we want to make clear... Leaves a mark psychologically, you mean? 博姆：开车的经验——我们只是想澄清 留下了心理印记，你是这意思吗？
22:26 K: Psychologically, of course. 克：心理上，当然。
22:27 B: Rather than knowledge of technique and matter. When you use ‘knowledge’ by itself it tends to include the whole. 博姆：而不是关于技术和物质的知识。 当你说使用知识的时候，似乎就包含了全部的知识。
22:37 K: We have said knowledge at a certain level is essential, there you can add and take away and keep on changing, moving – there. But I am questioning whether psychological knowledge is not in itself a factor of the shrinking of the brain. 克：我们说了知识在某个层面上是必要的， 在那里你可以增增减减， 然后在那里继续改变、前进。 但我质疑的是心理上的知识 本身是不是一个让大脑萎缩的因素。
22:59 B: What do you mean by psychological knowledge? Knowledge about the mind, knowledge about myself? 博姆：你说的“心理上的知识”是什么意思呢？ 关于心灵的知识，关于我自己的知识？
23:05 K: Yes. Knowledge about myself and living in that knowledge, and accumulating that knowledge. 克：是的，关于我自己的知识， 活在那种知识里，并且积累那种知识。
23:14 B: Yes. So if you keep on accumulating knowledge about yourself or about relationships... 博姆：是的。所以，如果你继续积累关于 你自己或者关系的知识
23:21 K: Yes, about relationships. So, that's it, sir. Would you say such knowledge makes the brain somewhat inactive makes the brain shrink? makes the brain somewhat inactive makes the brain shrink? 克：对，关于关系。所以，就是这样的，先生。 你会不会说这样的知识 会在一定程度上让大脑变得不活跃、 让大脑萎缩？会让大脑变得有些不活跃、 让大脑萎缩？
23:43 B: Puts it into a rut. But, one should see why, what is it about this knowledge that makes so much trouble? 博姆：会把大脑纳入窠臼。但是，我们应该明白为什么， 会造成这么多麻烦的这种知识，究竟是怎么回事？
23:54 K: What is in this knowledge that makes so much trouble. In relationship that knowledge does create trouble. 克：这种知识里面有什么会造成这么多的麻烦。 在关系中，那种知识确实制造了麻烦。
24:04 B: It gets in the way because it fixes. 博姆：它变成了障碍，因为它固化了。
24:09 K: If I have an image about him and I am related to him, that knowledge is obviously going to impede our… it becomes a pattern. 克：如果我对他抱有意象，而我又跟他有关系， 那种知识显然会妨碍我们的 那就会形成一个模式。
24:22 B: The knowledge about myself and about him and how we are related, it makes a pattern. 博姆：关于我自己和关于他的认识 以及我们的关系怎样，就形成了一个模式。
24:28 K: And therefore that becomes a routine and so it loses its... 克：于是那就变成了一种套路， 从而失去了它的
24:34 B: It occurred to me that, routine in that area is more dangerous than routine in the area of daily work. If routine in ordinary work can shrink the brain then in that area it might do something worse because it has a bigger effect. 博姆：我刚才想到了那个领域中的套路 比日常工作领域中的套路要更加危险。 如果日常工作中的套路会让大脑萎缩， 那么在那个领域中它的影响可能会更坏， 因为它具有更大的作用。
24:51 K: So, can the brain, in psychological matters, be entirely free from knowledge, from this kind of knowledge? Look: I am a businessman and I get into the car, or bus or a taxi, or the tube, and I am thinking what I am going to do, whom I am going to meet, a business talk, and my mind is all the time living in that area. I come home, there is a wife and children, sex and all that, that also becomes a psychological knowledge from which I am acting. So, there is the knowledge of my business and contacts, and also there is the knowledge with regard to my wife, and myself and my reactions: so these two are in contradiction. Or I am unaware of these two and just carry on. If I am aware of these two it becomes a disturbing factor. 克：那么，大脑，在心理问题上， 能否彻底摆脱知识，摆脱这种类型的知识？ 比如说：我是个商人， 我坐上汽车、巴士或者出租车，或者地铁， 我在想接下来我要做什么， 我要见谁，进行商务谈话， 我的心一直生活在那个领域里。 我回到家，那里有妻子和孩子们， 还有性行为，等等，那些也变成了 我借以行动的心理知识。 所以，既有我生意上和联系人的知识， 也有另一种知识 是和我妻子、我自己和我的反应有关的： 于是这两者就产生了矛盾。 或者我完全没意识到这两者然后只是照常生活下去。 如果我意识到了这两者，这就变成了一个令人不安的因素。
26:16 B: Also people find that it is a routine and they get bored with it and they begin to... 博姆：人们也会发现那是例行公事， 然后他们对此感到厌倦，于是就开始
26:21 K: ...divorce and then the whole circus begins. 克：……离婚，然后整场闹剧就开始了。
26:25 B: They may hope that by becoming occupied with something else they can get out of their... 博姆：他们也许希望通过被别的东西占据 他们就能摆脱自己的
26:30 K: Go to church, etc. Any escape is an occupation. So I am asking whether this psychological knowledge is not a factor of the shrinkage of the brain. Sorry! 克：上教堂，等等。任何逃避都是一种占据。 所以我在问，这种心理知识 是不是大脑萎缩的一个因素。抱歉！
26:50 B: It could be a factor. Evidently it is. If knowledge of your profession can be a factor, this knowledge is stronger.

K: Of course. Much stronger. 		博姆：它可能是一个因素。显然是的。 如果你的专业知识可以成为一个因素的话， 那这种知识还要更强大。

克：当然，强大多了。
27:02 N: You are making a distinction between psychological knowledge and, let us say, scientific knowledge or factual knowledge. 那拉扬：你在区分心理知识和 ——比如说，科学知识或者事实类的知识。
27:12 K: Of course, that’s what we have said. 克：当然，这就是我们刚才说的。
27:17 N: But I am a little wary about this article and the fact that scientific knowledge and other types of factual knowledge helps to extend or make the brain bigger. That in itself doesn’t lead anywhere. 那拉扬：但我对这篇文章有点儿质疑， 也质疑这个事实：科学知识 和其他类型的事实类知识能够帮助扩展 或者让大脑变大。 这种事情本身并没有什么意义。
27:34 K: What do you mean?

N: Though it postpones senility. 		克：你的意思是？

那拉扬：尽管它能延缓衰老。
27:37 K: What?

N: Well, exercising rational thinking. 		克：什么？

那拉扬：哦，我是说运用理性思考。
27:43 K: No, as Dr Bohm explained very carefully, if rational thinking becomes merely routine: I think logically, therefore I have learned the trick of that and I keep on repeating it. 克：不，就像博姆博士之前详细解释的那样， 如果理性思考变成了例行公事： 我用逻辑来思考，所以我学到了这个窍门 然后不断地重复使用。
27:58 N: That is what happens to most forms of rational thinking. 那拉扬：这恰恰就是大部分理性思维的形式。
28:03 B: I think that they depend on being continually faced with unexpected problems. They said, lawyers... their brains last longer because they are faced with constantly different problems and therefore they cannot make it entirely routine. Perhaps eventually they could but it would take a while. 博姆：我认为他们依赖于需要不断面临 各种不期而遇的问题。 他们说，律师……他们的大脑寿命更长，因为 他们不断面临不同的问题， 因此他们无法完全把思考变成例行公事。 可能最终他们也会那样，但那得花上一阵子。
28:27 K: Just a minute. They may have different clients with different problems, but they are acting from knowledge! 克：等一下。他们也许会有不同的客户 带着不同的问题，但他们也是根据知识行动的！
28:42 B: They would say, not entirely, they have got to find new facts and so on. 博姆：他们会说，不完全是这样， 他们必须发现新的事实，等等。
28:48 K: Of course not entirely, but the basis is knowledge: precedents, and book knowledge, and various experiences with various clients. 克：当然不完全是，但基础依然是知识： 判例和书本知识， 以及处理各种客户的各种经验。
28:59 B: Then you would have to say that some other more subtle degeneration of the brain takes place, not merely shrinkage. 博姆：那你就得说大脑有另一种 更加微妙的退化发生了， 而不只是萎缩。
29:08 K: That’s right. That’s what I want to get at. 克：没错。这就是我想说明的。
29:18 B: When a baby is born the brain cells have very few cross-connections, then they gradually increase in number, then as a person approaches senility they begin to go back. So, the quality of those cross-connections could be wrong. As another example – it would be too subtle to show up in these measurements – but for example, if you repeated them too often, they would get too fixed. 博姆：当一个婴儿出生时，脑细胞的交叉连结非常少， 然后它们的数量逐渐增加， 然后当一个人步入老年，它们的数量又开始回落。 所以，那些交叉连结的品质可能有误。 还有另一个例子，可能由于太过细微 所以很难从观测中证明，但是比如说， 如果你过于频繁地重复它们，它们就会变得过于固定。
29:50 N: Are all the brain functions confined to rational forms, or are there some functions of a different quality? 那拉扬：大脑所有的功能都局限于理性思考的形式吗， 还是说有另一些功能具备不同的品质？
30:04 B: It is known, for example, that a large part of the brain deals with movement of the body and so on, with muscles and with various organs, and this part does not shrink with age, but the part that deals with rational thought if it is not used, does shrink. There may be other functions that are totally unknown, very little is known actually about the brain. 博姆：例如说，众所周知大脑有很大一部分 处理的是身体等方面的活动， 还有肌肉和各种器官， 而这一部分并不会随着年龄萎缩， 但处理理性思维的那部分， 如果不被使用的话，确实会萎缩。 也许还有其他的一些功能目前还完全不为人所知， 实际上关于大脑目前人们所知甚少。
30:29 N: Which we don’t touch. Is there a possibility of that sort? 那拉扬：我们还没触及的部分。 那类东西有可能吗？
30:33 K: Narayan, what I am trying to explain is we are only using one part, or very partially the brain, and that partial activity is the occupation, either rational or irrational, or logical, and so still using the part. And as long as the brain is occupied it must be in that limited area. Would you say that? 克：那拉扬，我想解释的是 我们只使用了大脑的一部分， 或者非常偏颇的局部，而那种局部的活动 就是占据，无论理性还是不理性， 或者是不是符合逻辑，都依然只使用了一部分。 而只要大脑被占据， 它就必然处在那个有限的范围内。你们会这么认为吗？
31:17 B: Then what will happen when it is not occupied? 博姆：那当它不被占据，又会怎样呢？
31:21 K: We’ll go into that in a minute. 克：哦，我们很快就会谈到。
31:24 B: But we can say that it may tend to spend most of the time occupied in that limited set of functions which are mechanical, and that will produce some subtle degeneration of the brain tissue, since anything like that will affect the brain tissue. 博姆：但是我们可以说它也许倾向于把 大部分时间都花在被那些有限的功能所占据上， 那些功能是机械的，因而会造成 大脑组织某种不易察觉的退化， 因为任何那类事情都会影响大脑组织。
31:46 K: Are we saying that senility is the result of mechanical way of living, mechanical knowledge and so the brain has no freedom, no space, no sense of... 克：我们是不是说衰老是 机械的生活方式、机械的知识的产物， 所以大脑没有自由，没有空间，没有
32:13 B: That is the suggestion. It is not necessarily accepted by all the people who work on the brain. They have shown that the brain cells start to die around the age of thirty or forty and at a steady rate...

K: Be careful, you listeners! 		博姆：确实隐含了这个意思。 这一点不一定能被所有 研究大脑的人接受。他们证明了 脑细胞在30或者40岁左右开始死亡， 并且以非常稳定的速度……

克：当心了，你们这些听众！
32:29 B: This may be a factor. I don’t think their measurements are so good that they could test for the effect of how the brain is used. They are merely rough measurements made statistically. So, you want to propose that this death of the brain cells, or the degeneration, will come from the wrong way of using the brain. 博姆：这可能是一个因素。 我认为他们的观测还不够准确， 不足以测试大脑的使用方式产生的影响。 他们只是粗略地从统计学上加以测算。 所以，你想提出 脑细胞的这种死亡或者退化 来自于大脑错误的使用方式。
32:53 K: That is what I am trying to get at. 克：这就是我想说明的。
32:55 B: There is some evidence in favour of it from the science.

K: Thank God! 		博姆：科学上有些证据是支持这一点的。

克：感谢上帝！
33:02 B: The brain scientists don’t know very much about it, though. 博姆：尽管脑科专家们对此知道的并不多。
33:09 K: Scientists, brain specialists, are, if I may use rather easy words, they are going out, examining things outside, but not taking themselves as... guinea pigs and going through that. 克：科学家，脑科专家， 恕我使用些简化的说法，他们向外探索， 研究外在的事物，却不把他们自己当作 小白鼠来仔细研究。
33:37 B: Mostly. Except for those who do bio-feedback, they try to work on themselves in a very indirect way. 博姆：多数是这样的。除了那些研究生物反馈的人， 他们试图用一种非常间接的方式来研究他们自身。
33:45 K: I feel we haven’t time for all that kind of stuff! 克：我觉得我们没有时间去研究那些东西了！
33:49 B: No, that is too slow and it isn’t very deep. 博姆：没错，那些都太慢了，而且也不够深入。
33:52 K: So, let’s come back to the point. I realise that any activity which is repeated, any action that is directed - in a narrow sense - any method, any routine, logical or illogical, does affect the brain. We have understood that very clearly. And knowledge at a certain level is essential, and also psychological knowledge, about oneself, one’s experiences, all that, has also become routine. The images I have about myself obviously it’s a routine, so that helps to bring about a shrinkage of the brain. I have understood all that very clearly. And occupation, any kind of occupation. Of course, we’ve said that. Any kind of occupation apart from the mechanical... physical occupation the occupation with oneself, that obviously does bring about shrinkage of the brain. Now, how is this process to stop? And when it does stop will there be a renewal? 克：所以，让我们回到重点上来。 我认识到任何重复的行为， 任何指令之下的行动——狭义上的—— 任何方法、任何套路，无论是否符合逻辑， 确实会影响大脑。我们已经非常清楚地了解了这一点。 而知识在一定层面上是必要的， 同时关于自己的心理知识， 自己的经验，所有那些东西，也变成了套路。 我对自己抱有的形象显然是个套路， 从而促成了大脑的萎缩。 我非常清楚地懂得了这些。 还有占据，任何类型的占据。 当然，那些我们已经说过了。 任何类型的占据，除了技术上的……身体上的占据之外， 被自己所占据， 显然确实会造成大脑的萎缩。 那么，这个过程如何才能停止？ 当它真的停止了，是不是会有一种新生？
35:40 B: I think, again, some brain scientists would doubt that the brain cells could be renewed, but I don’t know that there is any proof, one way or the other. 博姆：我还是认为有些大脑科学家 会怀疑脑细胞能否新生， 但我不知道对于无论哪一方是否存在任何证据。
35:50 K: I think they can be renewed. That's what I want to discuss with you. 克：我认为它们是可以新生的。那正是我想和你们讨论的。
35:55 B: So we have to discuss that. 博姆：那我们就必须来讨论一下。
36:02 N: I want to put this question, because in one discussion between you in Ojai you are implying that mind is different from the brain, mind is distinct from the brain. 那拉扬：我想提出这个问题，因为在欧亥和你的一次讨论中 你说到 心灵与大脑是不同的，心灵是区别于大脑的。
36:17 K: Not quite. Did I?

N: Yes, the possibility of mind as distinct from the brain. 		克：不一定。我说过吗？

那拉扬：是的，说过心灵 有别于大脑的可能性。
36:25 B: It was universal mind. 博姆：那是普世心。
36:27 N: Mind in the sense one has access to this mind and it is not the brain. Do you conceive of that possibility? 那拉扬：那种心灵指的是一个人可以进入这种心灵， 而它并不是大脑。你认为有那种可能性吗？
36:40 K: I don’t quite follow this. I would say the mind is all-inclusive. When it is all-inclusive – brain, emotions, etc. - when it is totally whole, not divisive in itself, there is a quality which is universal. 克：我不太明白你的意思。 我会说心灵是无所不包的。 当它是无所不包的——大脑，感情，等等—— 当它完全是完整的，自身没有分裂， 就会有一种普世的品质。
37:12 N: Yes. One has access to it. 那拉扬：是的。你可以进入它。
37:18 K: You can’t reach it. You can’t say, 'I have access to it.' 克：你可以触及它。你不能说：“我可以进入它。”
37:22 N: No, I'm saying one doesn’t possess it, but one has access to it. 那拉扬：不，我是说你并不是拥有它， 但你可以进入它。
37:27 K: You can’t possess the sky! 克：你不能拥有天空！
37:29 N: No, my only point is: is there a way of being open to it, and is there a function of the mind, the whole of it, which is accessible through education? 那拉扬：不，我唯一想说的是：有没有一种对它保持开放的方式， 心灵，整个心灵，有没有一种功能 是可以通过教育企及的？
37:48 K: I think there is. We will come to that presently if we can stick to this point. We have reached a certain point in our discussion. We won’t go back to repeat it again. We are asking now, having understood all that, after this discussion, can the brain itself renew, rejuvenate, become young again without any shrinkage at all? I think it can. I want to open a new chapter and discuss it. Psychologically, knowledge that man has acquired is crippling it. The Freudians, the Jungians, or the latest psychologist, the latest psychotherapist, are all helping to make the brain shrink. Sorry! I hope there is nobody here. 克：我认为是有的。我们稍后就会谈到那个问题， 如果我们可以先紧扣这一点的话。 我们在刚才的讨论中已经来到了某个点上。 我们就不再回过头去重复了。 我们现在问的是，已经了解了这一切， 在这些讨论之后， 大脑自身能不能新生， 焕发青春，再次变得年轻，没有丝毫萎缩？ 我认为是可以的。我想开启一个新篇章来讨论一下。 心理上，人类获得的知识严重地损害着大脑。 弗洛伊德派、荣格派，或者最现代的心理学家， 最现代的心理治疗师， 都在促使大脑萎缩。 抱歉！我希望这里没这样的人。
39:28 N: Is there a way of forgetting this knowledge then? 那拉扬：那有没有办法忘掉这种知识呢？
39:31 K: No. Not forgetting. I see what they are doing and I see the waste, I see what is taking place if I follow that line. I see it, obviously. So I don’t follow that avenue at all. So I discard altogether analysis. That is a pattern we have learnt, not only from the recent psychologists and psychotherapists it is the tradition of a million years, to analyse, introspect, say, ‘I must’ and ‘I must not’, ‘This is right, this is wrong’, you know, the whole process. I personally don’t do it and so I reject that whole method. 克：不，不是忘掉。 我看到了他们在做什么，我也看到了浪费， 我明白如果我沿着那条路走下去会发生什么。 我看到了，那显而易见。所以我根本不会走上那条路。 于是我彻底抛弃了分析。 那是我们学到的一个模式， 不只是从新近的心理学家和心理治疗师， 那是一百万年来的传统，也就是去分析、 内省，说“我必须怎样，我不可以怎样， 这是对的，那是错的”，你知道这整个过程。 我个人不会这么做，所以我摒弃了那整个方法。
40:39 We are coming to a point, which is: direct perception and immediate action. Because our perception is directed by knowledge. The past perceives. So the past, which is knowledge, perceiving and acting from that, is a factor of senility – better use the word – shrinking the brain. 我们来到了这个点上，那就是： 直接的感知和即刻的行动。 因为我们的感知是被知识所主导的。 是过去在感知。 所以是过去，也就是知识， 在感知并据此行动，这就是衰老的因素 ——最好还是用会让大脑“萎缩”这个词。
41:38 So is there a perception which is not time-binding? And so, action which is immediate! That is, the brain has evolved through time, and it has set the pattern of time in action. And as long as the brain is active that way, it is still living in a pattern of time, and so becoming senile. If we could break that pattern of time, then the brain has now broken out of its pattern and therefore something else takes place. I don’t know if I am making myself clear. 所以有没有一种感知是不受限于时间的？ 因而就会有即刻的行动！ 换言之，大脑在时间中得到了进化， 于是它就把时间的模式设定到了行动当中。 而只要大脑以那样的方式活跃，它就 依然活在时间的模式中，所以才会变得衰老。 如果我们可以打破那个时间的模式， 那么大脑就突破了它自身的模式， 于是就会有另一些事情发生。 我不知道是不是说清楚了。
42:50 N: How does it break out of the pattern? 那拉扬：它是如何突破那个模式的？
42:54 K: I will come to that, but let’s first see if it is so. 克：我会讲到那点的，但是我们先来看看是不是这样。
43:01 B: You are saying that the pattern is the pattern of time perhaps this should be clarified. What you mean by analysis is some sort of process based on past knowledge, which organises your perception and you take a series of steps to try to accumulate knowledge about the whole thing. Now you say it's a pattern of time and you have to break out of it. 博姆：你说那个模式是时间的模式 可能这一点需要澄清一下。 你所说的分析是某种 基于过往知识的过程，是它在左右你的感知， 然后你采取一系列的步骤 想要积累关于整件事情的知识。 现在你说那是一种时间模式，你必须突破它。
43:33 K: If we agree to that, if we say that is so: the brain is functioning in a pattern of time. 克：如果你同意这一点，如果我们说确实如此： 大脑在一种时间模式中运转。
43:39 B: Then I think most people would ask: what other pattern is possible? What other movement is possible? 博姆：然后我想大多数人会问： 可能有别的什么模式吗？可能有别的什么活动吗？
43:47 K: No! I’ll say first let’s understand this. Not verbally, actually see that it is happening. That our action, our way of living, our whole thinking, is bound by time. Or comes with the knowledge of time. 克：不！我会说我们先来理解这个过程。 不是从字面上，而是实际看到它在发生。 那就是，我们的行动，我们的生活方式，我们的整个思维 都受制于时间。 或者伴随着时间的知识而产生。
44:09 B: Certainly our thinking about ourselves, any attempt to analyse yourself, to think about yourself, involves this process.

K: Process which is of time. 		博姆：毫无疑问，我们关于自身的思考， 分析你自己、琢磨你自己的任何尝试 都包含了这个过程。

克：属于时间的过程。
44:19 N: That is a difficulty: knowledge and experience, have a certain cohesive energy, force, it binds you. 那拉扬：这是一个难点：知识和经验， 具有某种内聚的能量、凝聚力，它捆绑着你。
44:28 K: Which is what? Time-binding... and therefore the pattern of centuries, millennia, is being repeated. 克：那是什么意思？受制于时间 所以千百年来的模式 一直在重复着。
44:40 N: What I am saying is, this has a certain cohesive force. You can’t run away from it. 那拉扬：我想说的是，这种东西具有一定的凝聚力。 你无法逃离它。
44:46 K: No. All illusions have an extraordinary vitality. 克：没错。所有的幻觉都有一种非同寻常的活力。
44:52 N: Very few break through.

K: Look at all the churches, what immense vitality they have. 		那拉扬：很少有人能突破。

克：看看所有的教会， 他们拥有多么巨大的活力。
45:01 N: Apart from these churches, one’s personal life has a certain cohesive... it keeps you back. You can’t break away from it. 那拉扬：除了这些教会，一个人的个人生活 也有某种粘着力……让你止步不前。 你无法脱离它。
45:10 K: What do you mean it keeps you back? 克：“让你止步不前”，你这么说的意思是？
45:15 N: It has a magnetic attraction, it sort of pulls you back. You can’t free yourself of it unless you have some instrument with which you can act. 那拉扬：它具有一种磁铁般的吸引力， 好像在把你拉回来。你无法让自己摆脱它 除非你有某种能够借以行动的工具。
45:25 K: We're going to find out if there is a different approach to the problem. 克：我们这就来搞清楚有没有另一种着手这个问题的方式。
45:33 B: When you say a different instrument, that brings time in again. The whole notion of an instrument involves time, because you use an instrument to... any instrument is a process which you plan... 博姆：当你说另一种工具， 那就又引入了时间。 整个“工具”的概念都包含了时间， 因为你用一种工具来 任何工具都是一个你做计划的过程
45:50 N: That is why I use the word ‘instrument’, to mean it is effective. 那拉扬：那就是为什么我要用“工具”这个词， 意思是它是有效的。
45:56 K: This has not been effective. On the contrary, it is destructive. So, do I see the very truth of its destructiveness? Not just theories, ideas, but the actuality of it. If I do, then what takes place? The brain, which has evolved through time, and has been functioning, living, acting, believing, all that in that time process, and when one realises that it helps to make the brain senile – and most... I won’t go into all that. Now, if you see that as true, then what? Next step? 克：这可一直都没效果。 正相反，它是破坏性的。 所以，我真的看到它的破坏性这个真相了吗？ 不是只是理论、概念，而是这个事实。 如果我看到了，那会怎样？ 大脑，经过了时间的进化， 一直在运转、生活、行动、相信， 那一切都在那个时间过程当中， 当一个人认识到它在促使大脑衰老， 而大部分……我不再详细讲那些了。 那么，如果你看到了这个事实，那会怎样？有下一步吗？
47:02 N: Are you implying that the very seeing that it is destructive is a releasing factor?

K: Yes. 		那拉扬：你是不是说看到 它的破坏性本身就是解放的因素？

克：是的。
47:09 N: And there is no need for an extra instrument? 那拉扬：于是就不需要一个额外的工具了？
47:12 K: No. Don’t use the word ‘instrument’. He keeps on repeating the word ‘instrument’. 克：不需要。不要用“工具”这个词。 他一直在重复“工具”这个词。
47:21 There is no other factor. I am concerned – I am using the word not personally – I am concerned to end this shrinkage and senility asking whether the brain itself, the cells, the whole thing, can move out of time. Not immortality, I am not talking about that. Move out of time, altogether. Otherwise, deterioration, shrinkage, senility is inevitable. Senility may not show but the brain cells are becoming weaker. 没有其他的因素了。 我关心的是——我用这个词并没有个人色彩—— 我关心的是终止这种萎缩和衰老， 所以才会问大脑本身，脑细胞， 这个整体能否从时间中脱离出来。 不是要实现永生，我说的不是那个。 脱离时间，彻底脱离。否则，退化、 萎缩、衰老就是在所难免的。 衰老可能并不会表现出来，但是脑细胞 在变得越来越虚弱。
48:29 N: If brain cells are material and physical, they have to shrink through time and age, it can’t be helped. The brain cell, which is tissue cannot be, in physical terms, immortal. 那拉扬：如果脑细胞是物质的、生理上的，它们必定会 随时间和年龄而萎缩，这是不可避免的。 脑细胞，也就是肌体组织 从生理上讲是不可能永生的。
48:47 B: But perhaps the rate of shrinkage would be greatly slowed down. If a person lives a certain number of years and his brain begins to shrink long before he dies, he becomes senile. Now if it would slow down, then... 博姆：但也许衰老的速度 会大大减缓。 如果一个人能活到某个年纪 而他的大脑在他死前很久就开始萎缩了，那他就会变得衰老。 如果衰老能够减缓，那么
49:06 K: Not only slow down.

B: ...but, regenerate, if you wish. 		克：不只是减缓。

博姆：……而且是新生，如你所说。
49:09 K: Be in a state – I am putting it quickly – in a state of non-occupation. 克：会处于一种状态——我会简短结说—— 处于一种不被占据的状态。
49:16 B: I think Narayan is saying that it is impossible that any material system could last for ever. 博姆：我想那拉扬说的是 任何物质系统都不可能永远存活下去。
49:23 K: I am not talking about lasting for ever. I am not sure if it can’t last for ever. No, this is very serious, I am not pulling anybody’s leg. 克：我说的不是永远存活下去。 我不确定它能否永远存活下去。 不，这个问题真的很严肃，我不是在拖谁的后腿。
49:44 B: If all the cells were to regenerate perfectly in the body and in the brain, then the whole thing could go on indefinitely. 博姆：如果所有的细胞都得到了完美的新生， 无论是身体细胞还是脑细胞， 那么这个整体就能无限期地存活下去。
49:52 K: Look sir: we are now destroying the body, drink, smoke, over-indulgence in sex, and all kinds of things. We are living most unhealthily. If the body were in excellent health, maintained right through, which is, no heightened emotions, no strain on the body, no sense of deterioration in the body, the heart functioning healthily, normally – why not? Which means what? No travelling! No travelling... If the body remains in one quiet place, I am sure it can last a great many more years than it does now. 克：你瞧先生：现在我们破坏着身体， 喝酒，抽烟，过度沉溺于性， 凡此种种。我们活得极其不健康。 如果身体处于极佳的健康状况下，始终保养得当， 也就是没有激烈的情绪，身体上没有紧张感， 身体没有退化， 心脏健康地、正常地跳动，为什么就不能永远活下去呢？ 那是什么意思呢？不旅行！不旅行 如果身体待在一个安静的地方，我确信 它能够比现在多活上好多年。
51:00 B: I think that's true, there have been cases of people living to one hundred and fifty in quiet places. But, I think that is all you are talking about. You are not talking of living forever really.

K: No, no! So, the body can be kept healthy. Since the body affects the mind, nerves, senses, all that, that also can be kept healthy. 		博姆：我认为确实如此，确实有些人的例子是 在安静的地方活到了150岁。 但是，我想这就是你说的全部意思。 你实际上并不是说要永远活下去。

克：没错，不是！ 所以，身体是可以保持健康的。 因为身体会影响头脑、神经、感官，等等， 那些也能保持健康。
51:30 B: And if the brain is kept in the right action... 博姆：如果大脑能够保持正确的活动
51:34 K: Yes, without any strain. 克：是的，没有任何紧张感。
51:37 B: The brain has a tremendous effect on organising the body. The pituitary gland controls the entire system of the body glands and also all the organs of the body are controlled in the brain. If the brain deteriorates the body starts to deteriorate. It works together.

K: They go together. So can this brain, which is not my brain, but the brain which has evolved through millions of years, which has had all kinds of destructive experiences, pleasant, etc. - can that brain... 		博姆：大脑对照料身体具有相当大的影响。 脑垂体控制着整个身体的腺体系统， 身体的所有器官也受到了大脑的控制。 如果大脑退化了，身体也会开始退化。 它们是协同工作的。

克：它们是一起工作的。 所以，这个大脑能否——它不是我的大脑， 而是经过几百万年进化而来的大脑， 它有过各种破坏性的经验， 快乐经验，等等——这个大脑能否
52:18 B: You mean that it is a typical brain not a peculiar brain, peculiar to some individual. When you say not mine, any brain belonging to mankind. 博姆：你是说它是一个典型的大脑， 而不是一个特殊的大脑，某个个体所特有的。 如果你说不是我的，那任何大脑都属于全人类。
52:27 K: Any brain.

B: They are all similar. 		克：任何大脑。

博姆：它们都是相似的。
52:30 K: Similar, that's what I said. Can that brain be free of all this, of time? I think it can. 克：相似的，这就是我说的意思。 这个大脑能够摆脱那一切，摆脱时间吗？ 我认为可以。
52:47 B: If we could discuss what it means to be free of time. At first sight that might sound crazy, because obviously we all know you don’t mean that the clock stops. 博姆：我们是否可以讨论一下摆脱时间是什么意思。 乍一听上去这个说法显得很疯狂，因为显然 我们都知道你并不是说钟表停走了。
53:02 K: Science fiction and all that nonsense. 克：科幻小说之类的无稽之谈。
53:05 B: The point is what does it really mean to be psychologically free of time? 博姆：关键在于究竟什么叫 从心理上摆脱时间？
53:12 K: That there is no tomorrow. 克：也就是说不存在明天。
53:14 B: But you know there is tomorrow.

K: But psychologically. 		博姆：但是你知道明天是存在的。

克：但是心理上不存在。
53:19 B: Can you describe better what does it mean, ‘no tomorrow’? 博姆：你能把意思解释得更清楚一些吗：没有明天？
53:24 K: What does it mean to be living in time? Let’s take this side first before we come to the other What does it mean to live in time? Hope, thinking, living in the past, and acting from the knowledge of the past, the images, the illusions, the prejudices, they are all an outcome of the past, all that is time. And that is producing in the world chaos. 克：活在时间里是什么意思？ 我们先来看看这一面，然后再说另一面。 活在时间里是什么意思？ 希望，思考，活在过去， 根据过去的知识来行动， 根据意象、幻觉、偏见行动， 它们都过去的产物，那一切都是时间。 而这在世界上造成了混乱。
54:09 B: Suppose you are not living psychologically in time, then you may still order your actions by the watch. The thing is a little puzzling, suppose somebody says, ‘I am not living in time, but I must make an appointment.' 博姆：假设你心理上并没有活在时间里， 那你可能依然会按照钟表时间来安排你的行动。 这件事情有点儿让人迷糊，假设有个人说， “我没有活在时间里，但我必须定个约会。”
54:27 K: We can’t sit here for ever, it’s nearly five o’clock! 克：我们不能一直在这儿坐下去，都快五点钟了！
54:30 B: So I'm looking at the watch but I'm not psychologically extending how it is going to feel in the next hour, when I'll have fulfilment of desire, or whatever. 博姆：所以我在看表，但是 心理上我并没有延伸到 下一个小时会有什么感觉，那会儿我该满足我的欲望之类的。
54:41 K: So the way we are living now is in the field of time. There, we have brought all kinds of problems, suffering, right? 克：所以说我们现在的生活方式是处于时间领域之内的。 在那里，我们造成了各种各样的问题、痛苦，对吗？
54:56 B: Why does this produces suffering necessarily? If you live in the field of time, you are saying that suffering is inevitable. But could you make it clear, simply, why? 博姆：这为什么一定会造成痛苦？ 如果你活在时间领域内， 你说痛苦就是在所难免的。 但是你能否把这点说清楚，简单说，为什么？
55:11 K: It is simple. Time has built the ego, ‘me’, the image of me, sustained by society, by parents, by education, that is built... after million years, that is the result of time. And from there I act. 克：很简单。时间造就了自我、我， 我的形象，被社会、父母、 教育所维系，在一百万年后被构建起来 它是时间的产物。然后我从那里行动。
55:36 B: Towards the future. Towards the future, psychologically, that is, towards some future state of being. 博姆：朝向未来。 朝向心理上的未来， 也就是，朝向未来的某个存在状态。
55:44 K: Yes, which is, the centre is always becoming. 克：是的，也就是，那个中心一直在成为什么。
55:49 B: Trying to become better. 博姆：努力变得更好。
55:50 K: Better, nobler, or the other way round. So this constant endeavour to become something, psychologically, is a factor of time. 克：更好，更高尚，或者反过来。 所以，这种不停想成为什么的努力， 从心理上成为，就是一个时间因素。
56:05 B: Are you saying that that produces the suffering? 博姆：你是说那就造成了痛苦？
56:07 K: Obviously. Why? Oh, my Lord, why? Because – it is simple – it is divisive. It divides me, so you are different from me. And me, when I depend on somebody and that somebody is lost, or gone, I feel lonely, miserable, unhappy, grief, suffering. All that goes on. So, we are saying any factor of division which is the very nature of the self, that must inevitably suffer. 克：显然是的。为什么？噢，我的天，为什么？ 因为，很简单，那具有分裂性。 它把我分离开来，所以你有别于我。 而我，当我依赖某个人时，那个人却不见了， 或者离去了，我就觉得孤单、凄惨、不开心、悲伤、痛苦。 那一切就发生了。 所以，我们说任何分裂的因素， 也就是自我的本性，必然会带来痛苦。
57:09 B: So, are you saying that through time the self is set up, is organised, and the self introduces division and inner conflict? But, if there were no psychological time, then maybe this entire structure would collapse and something entirely different would happen. 博姆：所以，你是说自我通过时间被建立起来， 被组织起来，而自我就会引发分裂和内在的冲突？ 但是，如果没有心理时间， 那么也许这整个结构就会崩塌， 某种完全不同的事情就会发生。
57:29 K: And therefore, the brain itself has broken... 克：所以，大脑本身就打破了
57:33 B: Next step is to say that the brain has broken out of that rut and maybe it could regenerate. It doesn’t follow logically, but still it could. 博姆：下一步就得说大脑突破了那个窠臼， 然后也许它就能够新生。 从逻辑上讲不一定会这样，但那依然是可能的。
57:42 K: I think it does follow logically, rationally. 克：我认为逻辑上是行得通的，是合理的。
57:45 B: Logically it would stop degenerating. Then you're adding further that it would start to regenerate. 博姆：从逻辑上讲它会停止退化。 然后你又进一步补充说它会开始新生。
58:00 K: You look sceptical. 克：你看起来很怀疑。
58:02 N: Yes, because the whole human predicament is bound to time. 那拉扬：是的，因为整个人类的困境就是受制于时间的。
58:11 K: Yes, we know that. 克：是的，这点我们知道。
58:12 N: Societies, individuals, the whole structure. And it's so forceful that anything feeble doesn’t work here. 那拉扬：社会、个人，这整个结构。 这些东西太强大了，以致于任何微弱的东西在那里都不起作用。
58:30 K: What do you mean ‘feeble’? 克：你说的“微弱”是什么意思？
58:32 N: The force of this is so great that if you have to break through, whatever comes must have greater energy. And no individual seems to be able to generate this energy to be able to break through. That’s one of the difficulties. 那拉扬：这些东西的力量是如此强大，以致于如果你要突破 那么到来的无论什么东西就必须具备更大的能量。 然而没有哪个个人看起来能够产生这种能量 能够突破出来。这就是困难之一。
58:51 K: You've got the wrong end of the stick, if I may point out. When you use the word ‘individual’...

N: A human being. 		克：你本末倒置了，如果我可以指出来的话。 当你使用“个体”这个词……

那拉扬：一个人。
59:00 K: ...but you have moved away from the fact that our brain is universal. 克：……但是你已经脱离了这个事实： 我们的大脑是普世共享的。
59:06 N: Yes, I admit that.

K: There is no individuality. 		那拉扬：是的，这个我承认。

克：个体性并不存在。
59:10 N: That brain is conditioned this way. 那拉扬：大脑就是那样被制约的。
59:14 K: Yes, we have been through all that. It is conditioned this way through time. Time is conditioning! Right? It's not: time has created the conditioning. 克：是的，那些我们都说过了。 通过时间它受到了那样的制约。 时间就是制约！对吗？ 而不是：时间造成了制约。
59:30 N: Its very structure is inherent in it. 那拉扬：它本身的结构是内在固有的。
59:33 K: Time itself is the factor of conditioning. So, can that time element not exist? Psychologically, not in the ordinary physical time. I say it can. And we said the ending of suffering comes about when the self, which is built up through time, is no longer there. For a man who is actually going through agony, going through a terrible time, he might reject this, he is bound to reject it, but when he comes out of the shock of this and somebody points out to him, if he is willing to listen, if he is willing to see the rationality of it, not build a wall against it, but see for himself the sanity of it, he is out of that field! The brain is out of that time-binding quality. 克：时间本身就是制约的因素。 那么，那个时间因素可以不存在吗？ 心理上，而不是通常说的物理时间。 我说是可以的。 我们也说了痛苦的终结 到来于通过时间构建起来的自我 不复存在之时。 对于一个正在经历切身的痛苦， 经历一段艰难时期的人来说， 他可能会排斥这些，他必定会排斥这些， 但是当他从这种打击当中走了出来， 然后有人跟他指出来，如果他愿意听的话， 如果他愿意去看这当中的合理性的话， 不是建起一道抵抗的围墙，而是亲自看清其中包含的理性， 那他就走出了那个领域！ 大脑就摆脱了那种受制于时间的特性。
1:01:07 N: Temporarily. 那拉扬：暂时摆脱了。
1:01:08 K: Ah! Again, when you use the word ‘temporary’, it means time. 克：啊！当你使用“暂时”一词，那还是意味着时间。
1:01:17 N: No, he slips back into time. 那拉扬：不是，他还会退回到时间中去。
1:01:19 K: No, you can’t. You can’t go back, if you see something dangerous, go back to it? You can’t. Like a cobra, whatever danger, you cannot! 克：不，你不会的。你不可能回去， 如果你看到了危险的东西，你还会回去吗？你不会的。 就像看见一条眼镜蛇，无论什么危险，你不可能回去！
1:01:36 N: The analogy is a bit difficult because your structure is that. You inadvertently slip into it. 那拉扬：那个类比有点儿难理解，因为你的结构就是那样的。 你是不经意滑进去的。
1:01:45 K: Look, Narayan, when you see a dangerous animal, there is immediate action. It may be the result of past knowledge, past experience, but there is immediate action, self-protection. Psychologically we are unaware of the dangers. And if we become as aware of the dangers as we are aware of a physical danger, there is an action which is not time-binding. 克：瞧，那拉扬，当你看到一个危险的动物， 就会有即刻的行动。 那也许是过去的知识、过去的经验的结果， 但会有立刻的行动，自我保护。 心理上我们没有意识到那些危险。 然而如果我们觉察到了那些危险， 就像觉察到身体上的危险一样， 就会有一种不受制于时间的行动。
1:02:27 B: I think that you could say, as long as you could perceive this danger you will respond immediately. But, if you were to use this analogy of the animal, there might be an animal that you realise is dangerous, but he might take another form that you don’t see as dangerous. 博姆：我想你可以说， 只要你能够感知到这种危险， 你就会立刻做出反应。 但是，如果你用动物来类比， 也可能有个动物你意识到是危险的， 但他可能会换个形式出现你就看不出那是危险了。
1:02:44 K: Yes, I saw that too. 克：是的，我也看到了这一点。
1:02:47 B: Therefore, there would be a danger of slipping back if you didn’t see that illusion might come in some other form. But, the major point that you are saying, is that the brain is not belonging to any individual. 博姆：所以，是可能存在退回去的危险的， 如果你没有发现那个幻觉可能会改头换面再回来。 但是，你说的重点是， 大脑并不属于任何个人。
1:03:10 K: Yes, sir. Absolutely. I am clear on that. 克：是的，先生。绝对是这样。这一点我很清楚。
1:03:13 B: Therefore it is no use saying that the individual will slip back. That already denies what you are saying. But rather, the danger might be that the brain might slip back. 博姆：所以，说个人会退回去就没有意义了。 那已经否定了你说的意思。但是，不如说， 危险也许在于大脑可能会退回去。
1:03:27 K: The brain might get back because it itself has not seen the danger. 克：大脑可能会退回去，因为它本身没有看到危险。
1:03:34 B: It hasn’t seen the other forms of the illusions. 博姆：它没有看出另一些形式的幻觉。
1:03:37 K: Holy Ghost taking different shapes. 克：形态各异的圣灵。
1:03:51 B: I think that's the point. 博姆：我想这就是关键所在了。
1:03:55 K: That is the real root of it – time. 克：这就是问题真正的根源：时间。
1:04:05 B: Time and separation as individuality are basically the same structure, although it is not obvious in the beginning. 博姆：时间和个体性的分裂 本质上是同样的结构， 尽管一开始没有那么显而易见。
1:04:15 K: I wonder if you see that. 克：我想知道你是不是明白了这一点。
1:04:17 B: Why is time the same illusion, the same structure as individuality? That is, psychological time. Individuality is the sense of being a person who is located here somewhere. 博姆：为什么时间和个体性是同一个幻觉， 是同样的结构？ 也就是，心理时间。 个体性是作为一个人 位于某个地方的那种感觉。
1:04:33 K: Located and divided.

B: Divided from the others. His domain extends out to some periphery, and also he has an identity which goes over time. He wouldn’t see himself as an individual unless he had an identity. If today he is one person, tomorrow another, he would not be called an individual. So we mean by ‘individual’ somebody who is in time. 		克：位于某个地方并且是分离的。

博姆：与他人相分离。 他的领地延伸到某个边界， 同时他也有一个随时间产生的身份。 他不会把自己当作一个个体除非他有个身份。 如果他今天是一个人，明天是另一个人， 他就不会被叫做“一个个体”。 所以我们说的“个体”是指处在时间中的某个人。
1:04:58 K: I think that is such a fallacy, this idea of individuality. 克：我认为这真是大错特错，个体性这个概念。
1:05:06 B: On the other hand, many people may find it very hard to be convinced that it is a fallacy. 博姆：另一方面，很多人 可能会觉得很难相信这是一个错误的认识。
1:05:12 K: Many people find everything very hard. 克：有很多人觉得无论什么都很难。
1:05:15 B: But, there is a common feeling that as an individual I have existed at least from my birth if not before, and go on to death and perhaps later. The whole idea of being an individual is to be in time and to be in psychological time. 博姆：但是，人有一种共同的感觉：作为一个个体， 至少从出生起我就已经存在了，如果不是更早的话， 然后继续存在到死，可能到死后还存在。 这整个作为个体存在的想法就是处在时间之中的 而且是处在心理时间之中。
1:05:32 K: We are saying that.

B: Not just clock time. 		克：我们说的就是那个。

博姆：而不是钟表时间。
1:05:35 K: No. So, if that illusion could be broken, time has created individuality, which is erroneous. 克：不是。所以，那个幻觉能否被打破， 是时间产生了个体性，而这是个错觉。
1:05:52 B: Through time the notion of individuality has arisen. You say - through time, through psychological time, the idea of individuality has arisen. 博姆：个体性的概念通过时间产生了。 你说——通过时间，通过心理时间， 个体性的概念产生了。
1:06:08 K: Can this brain understand that? 克：这个大脑能明白这一点吗？
1:06:11 B: As Narayan said, there is a great momentum, in any brain, of the whole past which keeps rolling, moving along. 博姆：就像那拉扬说的，任何一个大脑中都有一种巨大的动力 是来自于整个过去的，并且一直在往前滚动、运动。
1:06:25 K: Can that momentum stop, for a minute? Not a minute. Can that stop? Not for a minute. 克：那股动力能否停止，停下一分钟？不是一分钟。 它能停止吗？不是停下一分钟。
1:06:37 N: The difficulty comes actually in this: it is intrinsic to you – the genetic coding – and you seem to function more or less unconsciously, you are driven by this kind of past momentum. And suddenly you see, as it were, like a flash, something true. But the difficulty is, it operates for some time – in the sense it may operate for a day, but then there is the fact that you are again caught in the old momentum. It is a human experience. 那拉扬：困难实际就来自于此： 你内在固有的就是遗传密码 和你似乎或多或少是在无意识地运转的， 你被这种过去的动力所驱使。 然后突然，就像一道闪电一样，你看到了某种真实的东西。 但是困难就在于，它只在一段时间内起作用， 也就是说，它可以运作一天时间， 但是然后就出现了这个情况：你又困在了 旧有的动力中。这是人常有的体验。
1:07:18 K: I know that. But I say it will not be caught. 克：这个我知道。但是我说它不会再被困住。
1:07:23 N: That is why I say this can’t be a feeble thing. 那拉扬：那就是为什么我说那不可能是一种微弱的东西。
1:07:27 K: Don’t use the word ‘feeble’ or ‘strong’. Once you see, the mind, the brain, is aware of this fact, it cannot go back. How can it! 克：不要用‘“微弱”或者“强大”这些词。一旦你看到了， 一旦心灵、大脑觉察到了这个事实， 它是不可能回去的。它怎么可能回去！
1:07:45 N: That’s why I said there must be another way of preventing it from going back. 那拉扬：那就是为什么我说必定有 另一种方式可以防止它退回去。
1:07:53 K: Not preventing, that means also time. You see, you are still thinking in prevention. 克：不是防止，那也意味着时间。 你瞧，你还在想着防止。
1:08:00 N: Prevention in the sense, as a human factor. 那拉扬：防止的意思是指人的一个因素。
1:08:06 K: The human being is irrational. Right? And as long as he is functioning irrationally, any other rational factor, he says, ‘I refuse to see it.' 克：人本来就是不理性的。对吗？ 而只要他在不理性地运转， 有其他任何理性的因素，他都会说，“我拒绝看到它。”
1:08:25 N: From what you are saying, you are suggesting that the very seeing prevents you also from going back, from slipping. No, this is a human condition. 那拉扬：根据你说的这些，你的意思是 看到本身就能防止你退回去、 滑回去。不，这是人的一种境遇。
1:08:38 B: I wonder if we should ask this question about prevention. It may be a question... 博姆：我怀疑我们是否应该提出防止这个问题。 它可能是个问题
1:08:45 N: It has both the aspects. You see the fallacy of something and the very seeing prevents you from slipping back. Because you see the danger of it. 那拉扬：它有两个方面。你看到了某种谬误， 这个看到本身就会防止你滑回去。 因为你看到了它的危险。
1:08:59 B: Nothing prevents you. In another sense you'd say you have no temptation to slip back, therefore you don’t have to be prevented. If you really see it, there is no need to be prevented… 博姆：没什么东西在阻止你。 换句话说，你会说你没有滑回去的诱惑， 因此你不需要被阻止。 如果你真的看到了这一点，就没有必要再防范什么
1:09:08 N: I understand, yes, you are not tempted to go back. 那拉扬：我明白，是的，你没有退回去的诱惑。
1:09:12 K: I can’t go back. If I see the fallacy of all the religious nonsense, it is finished! 克：我不可能退回去。如果我看到了 所有宗教类胡言的谬误，它就结束了！
1:09:20 B: The only question which I raise is that you may not see it in another form... 博姆：我提出的唯一一个问题就是 你可能并没有发现它还有另一种形式
1:09:25 N: It may come in different shapes and forms. 那拉扬：它也许会以不同的外貌和形式出现。
1:09:27 B: ...and then you are tempted once again. 博姆：……然后你就再一次被诱惑了。
1:09:30 K: The mind is aware, it is not caught. What, you are saying it does? 克：心是警觉的，它不会再被困住。 你们说它会做什么？
1:09:35 N: In other shapes and forms, you can see through. 那拉扬：换一些外貌和形式，你也能看穿。
1:09:38 K: That’s it. 克：就是这样。
1:09:39 N: There is another thing I want to ask: is there a faculty in the human system which has this function as it were, so it has some effect, some transforming effect on the brain. 那拉扬：还有另一件事我想问问： 人体系统中有没有一种能力 可以说具备这种功能，所以具有某种作用， 对大脑具有某种转化作用。
1:10:03 K: We said that.

N: No, we have not said that… 		克：这个我们说过了。

那拉扬：不，我们没说过这个
1:10:07 K: Wait sir. We said that. Perception is out of time. Seeing immediately the whole nature of time. Which is to have - to use a good old word - to have an insight into the nature of time. If there is an insight into the nature of time the very brain cells which are part of time break down. The brain cells mutate, bring about a change in themselves. That is what this person is saying. You may disagree, you may say ‘Prove it’. I say this is not a matter of proof, it is a matter of action. Do it, find out, test it. 克：等一下，先生。这个我们说过了。 洞察是在时间之外的。 即刻看清时间的整个结构。 也就是拥有——还用这个好用的老说法—— 拥有对时间本质的洞察。 如果洞察了时间的本质， 作为时间的一部分的脑细胞本身就瓦解了。 脑细胞发生了突变，为自身带来了一种改变。 这就是这个人说的意思。 你可能会不同意，你可能会说“证明一下”。 我说这不是一个证明的问题， 这是一个行动的问题。去做，去弄清楚，去检验它。
1:11:26 N: You were also saying the other day that when the consciousness is empty of its content... 那拉扬：前几天你也说过 当意识清空了它自身的内容
1:11:40 K: The content is time! 克：那个内容就是时间！
1:11:42 N: You said that leads to the transformation of the brain cells. When you say consciousness is empty of the content... 那拉扬：你说过那会导致 脑细胞的转变。 当你说意识清空了内容
1:11:52 K: ...there is no consciousness as we know it. 克：……就没有我们所知的意识了。
1:11:56 N: Yes. And again you are using the word ‘insight’. What is the connection between the two? There is an obvious connection. 那拉扬：是的。然后你又用了“洞察”这个词。 这两者之间有什么联系？ 显然有一种联系。
1:12:06 B: Between what, consciousness and insight? 博姆：什么之间的联系，意识和洞察吗？
1:12:08 N: Consciousness. When you have suggested that consciousness is empty of its content... 那拉扬：意识。当你说到 意识清空了它的内容
1:12:18 K: Careful! Consciousness is put together by its content. The content is the result of time. 克：当心！意识是由它的内容构成的。 这个内容是时间的产物。
1:12:33 B: The content also is time. It is about time as well. It is also actually put together by time. 博姆：这个内容也是时间。它也是关于时间的。 它实际上也是由时间构成的。
1:12:43 K: Actually put together by time, and also it is about time, as he pointed out. Now, if you have an insight into that the whole pattern is gone, broken. The insight, which is not of time, which is not of memory, which is not of knowledge, etc. 克：实际上是由时间构成的，它也是关于时间的， 就像他指出的那样。那么，如果你对此有了洞察， 那整个模式就消失了，瓦解了。 这份洞察，不属于时间，不属于记忆， 也不属于知识，等等。
1:13:07 N: Who has this insight? 那拉扬：那是谁拥有了这份洞察？
1:13:10 K: It’s not me. There is an insight. 克：不是我。只是有了洞察。
1:13:14 N: There is insight, and the word ‘insight’ has a positive connotation - you have an 'insight', and then 'the consciousness is empty of its content' has a negative kind of...

K: No, sir! 		那拉扬：有了洞察，而“洞察”这个词 有一种肯定的含义——你有了一种“洞察”， 然后“意识清空了它的内容” 又有一种否定的……

克：不，先生！
1:13:33 N: You are implying that the very emptying of the content, the emptiness of the content, is insight. 那拉扬：你说清空内容本身， 内容的清空就是洞察。
1:13:42 K: No. We are saying time is a factor which has put the content, which has made up the content. It has made up and it also thinks about. All that is a bundle, is the result of time. Now, an insight into this whole movement. It is not my insight.

N: No, it is insight. 		克：不。我们说的是 时间是一个因素， 是它放入了内容，是它构成了那个内容， 它造出了内容，它又思考那些内容。 这一切是一大捆东西，是时间的产物。 现在，对这整个运动有了一种洞察， 它并不是我的洞察。

那拉扬：对，只是洞察而已。
1:14:16 K: Insight, that brings about transformation in the brain. Because it is not time-binding, that insight. 克：洞察，带来了大脑的转变。 因为它不受制于时间，那份洞察。
1:14:30 B: If you say that this content, the psychological content, is a certain structure physically in the brain, you may say that in order for this psychological content to exist, the brain over many years has made many connections of the cells, which constitute this content. And then there is a flash of insight which sees all this and sees that it is not necessary, and therefore all this begins to dissipate. And when that has dissipated there is no content – then you say whatever the brain is doing is something different. 博姆：如果你说这个内容，这些心理内容， 是大脑中的某种生理结构，那么你就可以说 要让这些心理内容存在， 大脑多年来在细胞间建立了很多连结， 这就构成那些内容。 然后有了电光火石般的洞察就看清了这一切， 看清了那些是不必要的， 于是那一切就开始散去。 当那些都消散了，内容就不存在了， 然后你说无论大脑做什么，都是完全不同的事情了。
1:15:08 K: Which is, to go further, then there is total emptiness. We won’t go into it. Which we went into the other day. 克：也就是，更进一步地说，于是就有了彻底的空无。 我们就不讲这些了。前些天我们讲过了。
1:15:21 B: Emptiness of that content? But when you say total emptiness you don’t mean you don’t see the room, but you mean emptiness of all this inward content. 博姆：清空了那些内容吗？ 但是当你说彻底的空无， 你的意思并不是你看不到这个房间了， 而是清空了里边所有的内容。
1:15:31 K: That’s right. That emptiness has tremendous energy. It is energy! 克：没错。 这种空无具有巨大的能量。它就是能量！
1:15:47 B: So, could you say that the brain having had all these connections tangled up, has locked up a lot of energy? 博姆：所以，你是不是可以说 因为大脑之前有各种互相纠缠的连结， 所以锁住了很多能量？
1:15:53 K: That’s right. Wastage of energy. 克：没错。浪费了能量。
1:15:55 B: Then when they begin to dissipate, that energy is there. Now, would you say that is as much physical energy as any other kind, nervous energy? 博姆：然后当它们开始消散，那股能量就有了。 那么，你会不会说那既是身体能量， 也是另一种能量，神经能量？
1:16:07 K: Of course, of course. Now you have heard all this, Narayan. We can go on more in detail, but you have heard 'en principe', the principle, the root of it: is it an idea or a fact? 克：当然，当然。 现在你已经听到了这些，那拉扬。 我们可以继续探讨更多的细节，但是你已经听到了“大原则”， 其中的原理、根本： 那它是一个概念呢还是一个事实？
1:17:06 N: An idea of it has no... 那拉扬：概念就没有
1:17:08 K: No, I am asking you, don’t dodge it. Is it an idea or a fact? I hear all this. I have heard it with the hearing of the ear, so I make it into an idea. But if I hear it, not only with the hearing of the ear but hear it in my being, in the very structure of myself I hear this statement, what happens then? If that doesn’t take place it becomes merely an idea and we can spin along for the rest of one’s life playing with ideas. But if that sense of ‘Yes, I have…’ - you know? So, we are more or less, you and I, and Narayan perhaps, more or less a captured audience. If there was a scientist, bio-feedback or another brain specialist, would they accept all this? Would they even listen to all this? 克：不，我在问你，别回避问题。 它是一个概念还是一个事实？ 我听到了这一切。 我用耳朵的听力听到了这些， 然后把它变成了一个概念。 但是如果我听到了它， 不只是用耳朵的听力，而是用我的整个存在听到了， 用我自己的整个结构，我听到了这个说法， 然后会怎样？ 如果这没有发生，它就只会变成一个概念， 然后我们在余生里可以继续绕圈子 玩弄概念。 但是，如果“是的，我有……”那种感觉——你知道吗？ 所以，我们或多或少，你，我，还有那拉扬，可能 或多或少 属于被吸引的听众。 如果有个科学家，生物反馈或者 另一个脑科专家，他们会接受这些吗？ 他们哪怕会来听一听这些吗？
1:19:01 B: Maybe a few would but obviously the majority would not. 博姆：也许有少数几个会，但是显然大部分人不会。
1:19:04 K: No. So what? How do we affect – I am using the word ‘affect’ – how do we touch the human brain? 克：不会。然后呢？ 我们如何影响——我用了“影响”这个词—— 我们要如何触动人类的大脑？
1:19:25 B: Let me say the way it will sound to most scientists is it will sound rather abstract. They will say it could be so, it is a nice theory. 博姆：我会说，这些在大部分科学家听起来 会觉得太抽象了。 他们会说可能是这样的，这个理论不错。
1:19:33 K: Good boy, it is nice to have heard you. 克：“老兄，很高兴能听你讲。”
1:19:36 B: We have no proof of it. Therefore they would say OK, it doesn’t really excite me much because I don’t see any proof. I think that is the way...

K: ...they would operate. 		博姆：对此我们没有证据。所以他们会说，好吧， 这不会让我太激动，因为我没有看到任何证据。 我想这就是……

克：……他们的运作方式。
1:19:50 B: The more favourable ones would look at it that way. Let’s say if you have some more evidence then… 博姆：那些更讨喜的人会这样看待这件事。 比如说，如果你有更多的证据，那么
1:19:56 K: We will come back later.

B: …we will become very interested. You see, you can’t give any proof because whatever is happening nobody can see it, with their eyes. 		克：我们过后还会回来。

博姆：……我们会变得饶有兴致。 你瞧，你无法提供任何证据，因为无论发生了什么， 没人能亲眼看见。
1:20:14 K: Of course. I understand. But I am asking, what shall we do? What is... How do you affect... Our mind, our brain, is not my brain, it is the human brain which has evolved through a million years. One freak, or one biological freak, can move out of it – perhaps, or does. How do you get at the human mind to make him see this? 克：当然。我明白。 但我问的是，我们该怎么办？ 什么是……你如何影响 我们的心，我们的大脑，并不是我的大脑，它是人类的大脑， 它经过了一百万年的进化。 一个怪胎，或者一个生物学上的怪胎 也许可以从中脱离出来，或者确实脱离了出来。 你如何才能触动人心让他明白这些呢？
1:20:57 B: I think you have to communicate the necessity of what you are saying, that it is inevitable. You have to communicate the necessity of what you are saying, that it is inevitable. If you explain it to somebody and he sees it happening before his eyes he says, ‘That’s so’. 博姆：我认为你得跟人沟通 你所说内容的必要性，说那是无法回避的。 你必须跟人沟通你所说内容的必要性， 说那是无法回避的。 如果你跟某个人解释了它，他看到它就发生在 自己的眼前，他会说，确实如此。
1:21:18 K: But sir, that requires somebody to listen! Somebody who says, really I want to capture this, I want to understand this, I want to find out. Apparently, that is one of the most difficult things in life. 克：但是，先生，这得需要有人听啊！ 需要有人说，我真的想领会这些， 我想了解这些，我想弄清真相。 显然，这是生命中最困难的事情之一。
1:21:38 B: That’s the function of this occupied brain, that it is occupied with itself and doesn’t listen. 博姆：这就是这个被占据的大脑的功能， 它被自己占据，不肯倾听。
1:21:47 N: In fact one of the things is, this occupation seems to start very early. When you are young it is very powerful and it continues through all your life. How do you through education make this... 那拉扬：实际上问题之一就在于 这种占据似乎很早就开始了。 你年轻的时候这种占据就已经很严重了， 然后再持续你的整个一生。 你如何才能通过教育让这种
1:22:05 K: Oh, that is a different matter. I would say, I would work at it differently, if you are asking how to set about it I will tell you. The moment you see the importance of not being occupied, you yourself see that as a tremendous truth, you will find ways and methods to help them. That is creative, you can’t just be told, and copy and imitate, then you are lost. 克：噢，那是另一个问题了。 我会说，我会用另一种方式入手， 如果你问如何开始的话，我会告诉你的。 你一旦看到不被占据的重要性， 一旦你亲自看到那个非同寻常的真相， 你就会找到方式方法来帮助他们。 那是有创造性的，你不能只是被教导 然后拷贝和模仿，那样你就迷失了。
1:22:48 B: Question is, how is it possible to communicate to the brain, which rejects, which doesn’t listen? 博姆：问题是，怎么可能跟大脑去沟通， 毕竟它在抗拒，它不肯倾听？
1:22:55 K: That is what I am asking.

B: Is there a way? 		克：这正是我的问题。

博姆：有办法吗？
1:23:00 K: No. If I refuse to listen, what... Go to the Pope and tell him all this he will say – well! Sir, I think we better stop, don’t you? I think meditation is a great factor in this. I feel we have been meditating. Ordinary people wouldn’t accept this as meditation. 克：没有。 如果我拒绝倾听，什么 去找教皇，然后告诉他这些，他会说，哦！ 先生，我想我们最好得打住了，好吗？ 我认为冥想在这当中是一个非常重要的因素。 我认为我们刚才就一直在冥想。 普通人不会接受这是冥想。
1:23:59 B: They have used the word so often in a routine way. 博姆：他们通常用一种常规的含义来使用这个词。
1:24:01 K: It is really lost, that is one of the things... Something real made vulgar, common, is gone. Yoga, as I was pointing out, was something extraordinary, only, if I may use the word, without being misunderstood, for the very few. Now it has become common, a way of earning a livelihood. It’s gone! So, meditation is this, the emptying of consciousness. 克：它真的已经丧失了原有的意义，这是那些东西之一 某种真实的东西被变得粗俗、寻常，消失不见了。 瑜伽，就像我之前指出的，以前是一种非同寻常的东西， 是只为——如果我可以用这个词而不导致误解的话—— 极少数人准备的。 现在它已经变得太过寻常了，变成了一种谋生手段。 它已经不见了！ 所以，冥想就是这个，是意识的清空。
1:24:48 B: Yes, but let’s get it clear, because before you said it would happen through insight. Now, are you saying meditation is conducive to insight? 博姆：是的，但是我们来把它说清楚， 因为之前你说过它会通过洞察发生。 那么，你是不是说冥想是有助于洞察的？
1:24:57 K: Meditation is insight.

B: It is insight already. Then it is some sort of work you do. Insight is usually thought of as the flash. 		克：冥想就是洞察。

博姆：它已经是洞察了。 那它就是你做的一种工作了。 洞察通常被认为是一瞬间的闪光。
1:25:06 K: Yes, insight is a flash. 克：是的，洞察是一道闪光。
1:25:07 B: But also meditation is a more constant... 博姆：但冥想又是一种更加持续
1:25:13 K: Now, we must be careful in the usage of what we mean by meditation.

B: That’s the question, yes. 		克：现在，我们就必须小心用词了， 我们说的“冥想”是什么意思。

博姆：就是这个问题，是的。
1:25:22 K: We can reject the systems, the methods, the authorities, the acknowledged Zen, Tibetan, Hindu, Buddhist, we can reject all that, because it is obviously mere tradition, repetition, and time-binding nonsense. 克：我们可以摈弃各种体系、方法、 权威，世人公认的禅宗、藏传佛教、 印度教、佛教徒，我们可以抛开那一切， 因为显然那些只是传统、重复， 是受制于时间的无稽之谈。
1:25:41 N: Don’t you see some of them could have been original, some of them could have had original insight? 那拉扬：你难道不认为他们当中有些人可能曾经具有初创性， 有些人可能曾经有过原初的洞察？
1:25:52 K: If they had they wouldn’t be in it, wouldn’t belong to Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, they wouldn’t be anything. 克：如果他们有过，他们就不会投身其中，就不会属于 基督教、印度教、佛教徒，他们不会成为任何身份。
1:25:59 N: In the past. 那拉扬：活在过去。
1:26:01 K: Chi lo sa… I mean, who knows? I am also clever at this. Now, meditation is this penetration, you follow? I don’t know if I am using the right word. It is this sense of moving without any past. I can't... 克：Chi lo sa……我是说，谁知道呢？ 这方面我也很聪明。 那么，冥想就是这种洞察，你明白吗？ 我不知道我是不是用词恰当。 那是一种 不带着任何过去的活动。我无法
1:26:46 B: The only point to clear up is, when you use the word meditation, do you mean something more than insight. It seems to mean something a bit more... 博姆：唯一要澄清的一点是， 当你使用“冥想”一词， 你是不是指某种超越了洞察的东西。 它的含义似乎还要更多一些
1:26:57 K: A bit more. Much more. Because insight has freed the brain from the past, from time. That is an enormous statement. Meditation, as we know it, is becoming, and any sense of becoming is still time, therefore there is no sense of becoming. 克：多一些。多很多。因为洞察 让大脑摆脱了过去，摆脱了时间。 这是一句非同小可的话。 我们通常所知的冥想，是成为什么， 而任何一种成为都依然是时间， 因此没有丝毫的成为什么。
1:27:34 B: But that seems to mean that you have to have insight if you are going to meditate. You cannot meditate without insight. 博姆：但那似乎是说你必须拥有洞察 才能去冥想。 没有洞察你就无法冥想。
1:27:43 K: Of course. 克：当然。
1:27:44 B: You can’t regard it as a procedure by which you will come to insight.

K :No! That immediately implies time. A procedure, a system, a method to have insight sounds so nonsensical. Insight into greed, into fear, into all that, frees the mind from all that. Then meditation has quite a different quality. It has nothing to do with all the guru's meditations. Right? So, that, is what? Would we say, sir – it's wrong words, all this – to have insight there must be silence. 		博姆：你不能把它当成一个 借以实现洞察的步骤。

克：当然！ 那样立刻就引入了时间。 拥有洞察的一个程序、一个体系、一个方法 听起来都太荒唐了。 对贪婪、对恐惧、对那一切的洞察 就把心灵从那一切中解放了出来。 然后冥想就有了一种截然不同的品质。 它跟所有那些古鲁的冥想没有丝毫关系。 对吗？那么，那又是什么呢？ 我们能不能说，先生——这些话全都辞不达意—— 拥有洞察，就必须安静。
1:28:53 B: It’s the same, we seem to be going in a circle. 博姆：都是一回事，我们好像在兜圈子。
1:28:55 K: No, for the moment. 克：不，暂且这么说。
1:28:57 B: For the moment, yes, my mind has silence. 博姆：暂且，好的，我的心是安静的。
1:28:59 K: Silence. So the silence of insight has cleansed, purged, all that. 克：寂静。所以洞察的寂静 就清除了、涤净了那一切。
1:29:12 B: The structure of the occupation. 博姆：那个占据的结构。
1:29:18 K: Then meditation - oh Lord, what is it? There is no movement as we know it. Movement means time, all that. It is not that kind of movement. 克：然后冥想——噢，天哪，它是什么？ 没有我们所知的任何运动。 运动就意味着时间，那一切。不是那种运动。
1:29:44 B: Some other kind? 博姆：是另外的某种运动？
1:29:53 K: I don’t see how we can measure that by words. That sense of limitless state. 克：我不知道我们怎么能用语言来衡量它。 那种无限的状态。
1:30:16 B: But, in Ojai you were saying that nevertheless it is necessary to find some language. In Ojai you were saying that it is still necessary to find a language, even though it is unsayable. 博姆：但是，在欧亥你说过无论如何 还是有必要找到某些语言来表达的。 在欧亥你说过还是需要 找到一种语言，即便那是不可说的。
1:30:26 K: Yes. We will find the language. We better stop, it is too late. Shall we continue next Sunday? Right, sir. 克：是的。我们会找到语言来表达的。 我们最好打住了，太晚了。 我们下周日再继续好吗？好的，先生。