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SA77D3 - 教育，冥想以及死亡
公共讲座 3
萨能, 瑞士
1977年 7月 29日



0:35 Krishnamurti: I'm sorry you have such a nasty morning. 克里希那穆提：抱歉你们有这样一个糟糕的早晨。
0:56 We are going to have a dialogue, that is, an enquiry together as two friends who know each other fairly well, talking over their problems, and therefore without any aggression, without any assertion, but as a friendly enquiry into our problems. So what shall we talk over together, have a dialogue about, this morning? 我们将进行一次对话， 也就是 两个朋友一起进行的一场探询 ——两个彼此相知颇深的朋友 讨论他们的问题， 因此，没有任何的攻击性， 没有任何的强硬主张， 而是，深入我们各种问题的一场友善探询。 那么，这个清晨，我们应该一起谈些什么， 进行一场关于什么的对话呢？
1:42 Questioner: You have said that, without self-knowledge there is no basis for action. What is the relationship between self-knowledge and education, education not only of children but of grown-ups as well? 提问者：你说过， 没有自我了解，便没了行动的依据。 那么，自我了解和教育之间存在什么样的关系？ 并不只是孩童的教育，还有成年人的。
2:02 K: A little louder, sir. 克：大声一点，先生。
2:05 Q: What is the relationship between self-knowledge and education, education not only of children but of grown-ups as well? 问：自我了解和教育之间是什么关系？ 并不只是针对孩童的教育，还有成年人的。
2:17 K: Shall we discuss that, would you like to? He says, what is the relationship between self-knowledge and education. Education not only of children, students, but also educating ourselves. What is the relationship between education and self-knowledge? Do you want to discuss that, talk it over together? 克：我们能讨论这个话题吗？你们愿意吗？ 他问，自我了解和教育之间存在什么样的关系。 并不只是孩童、学生的教育， 也包括成年人的。 教育和自我了解之间存在着什么样的关系？ 你们想要讨论这个，一起探讨这个话题吗？
2:53 Q: I was wondering if we could discuss as well the relationship between discontent and meditation. 问：我想知道我们能否也探讨一下 不满与冥想之间的关系。
3:04 K: What is the relationship between discontent and meditation. 克：不满与冥想之间存在什么样的关系。
3:16 Q: Can we talk about meditation and death in daily living? 问：我们能否讨论一下日常生活里的冥想与死亡？
3:24 K: What is the relationship between meditation and death. The Brockwood people have got together on this, I see. 克：冥想与死亡之间存在着什么样的关系。 我知道，布洛克伍德的人一同探讨过这个问题。
3:41 Q: Can you speak of the heart entering the mind? Can one speak of the heart entering the mind, as you have mentioned sometimes. 问：你能否谈谈进入头脑的心灵？ 你能否谈谈进入头脑的心灵， 正如有时侯你提到的那样。
4:10 K: Heart entering into the mind. Is there any difference between the heart and the mind? That is, affection, care, consideration, non-aggression and so on, which are supposed to be the qualities of the heart, can that enter into the mind. But both the mind and the heart, when they are really harmonious, they are one. 克：进入头脑的心灵。 心灵与头脑之间存在着任何不同吗？ 也就是说，情感、关怀、体谅、 不侵犯等等， 这些心灵理应具备的品质 能进入头脑吗？ 而头脑和心灵， 当它们十分和谐时，它们是一体的。
4:49 So shall we talk about, have a dialogue about the relationship of self-knowledge and education, not only of the students but also of the grown-ups, and what is the relationship between death and meditation, and discontent and meditation? Shall we start with those three, or have you another question? All right. 那么，我们应该来谈一谈， 进行一场对话，说说自我了解和教育之间的关系， 不仅仅是学生的教育，也同样包括了成年人的， 以及死亡和冥想之间的关系， 还有不满与冥想，好吗？ 我们就以这三个问题展开讨论还是你们还有别的问题？ 好的。
5:36 What is the relationship between self-knowledge and education? One asks, if one is talking over together, two friends, what do we mean by education, and what do we mean by self-knowledge? We must be clear before we find a relationship between the two, we must be clear what we mean by education, what we mean by self-knowledge. 自我了解和教育之间是什么关系？ 有人问，如果两个朋友正在一起探讨， 教育到底意味着什么， 以及，自我了解到底意味着什么？ 我们必须在找到两者的关系之前弄清楚， 我们必须清楚我们所说的教育意味着什么， 我们所说的自我了解意味着什么。
6:11 So what do we mean by education? Most of us know how to read and write. Most of us have some kind of degree, college, school, university, where you are acquiring a great deal of information about many subjects, or branch off into a particular subject and specialise in that subject, developing a skill so as to function in the world, if you want to function in the world. That is what we call education. That is the accepted norm, the meaning of education. But we question it. We are questioning if that is all of education. Or is education not only the cultivation of various subjects and so on, gathering knowledge, but also be concerned with the totality of man which apparently no school, no college, no university is concerned with, at least as far as I know. So what do we mean by education? If you are merely satisfied with the acquisition of knowledge, memory, the cultivation of memory, and then use that memory skilfully in a particular branch of any livelihood and so on, engineer, scientist, philosopher – the word philosopher means the love of truth, the love of life, not speculative, theoretical, verbal, intellectual expressions. So, proper education apparently would mean not only the cultivation of knowledge but also the cultivation of the whole of man. Now, is that possible in a school, in a college, in a university – the cultivation of the total human existence, human being? I believe we neglect all that field, all that side, and cultivate extraordinary capacities, technological and so on. We know this. 那么，我们所说的教育意味着什么？ 我们大多数人都知道如何阅读和写作。 我们大多数人都有着某种学位， 学校、学院、大学， 在那里，你学到有关许多学科的大量信息， 又或者，深入某个特别的学科， 然后，专门研究那门学科， 并发展出一门技术，以便能在世界上学以致用， 如果你想在这世界上发挥作用的话。 那就是我们称之为教育的东西。 那是我们公认的准则，是我们教育的意义。 可是，我们质疑它。 我们在质疑是否那就是教育的全部。 还是说，教育并不仅仅是教授各种科目 等等，也就是知识的汇集， 而且也关心人的整体， 这显然是没有任何一所学校、学院、 大学会关心的，至少据我所知是如此。 那么，我们所谓的教育意味着什么？ 如果你仅仅满足于知识的获得， 记忆，对记忆的培育， 然后，很娴熟地运用那份记忆 ——在某个特定的谋生领域里等等， 工程师、科学家、哲学家 ——“哲学家”这个字眼意味着对于真理、对于生活的热爱， 而非揣测性的、理论性的、 口头上、智力上的表达。 因此，很显然“正确的教育”意味着 不仅仅对于知识的培育， 还意味着，对人整体性的培育。 现在，是否可能在一个学校里、一所学院里、一间大学里 ——有着对于 人的整个存在的培育，对于人整体性的培育？ 我相信我们完全忽略了那个领域、那个方面， 而只培育了超凡的才智， 技术方面的才智等等。 我们知道这个。
9:42 Now, the questioner asks, what is the relationship between self-knowledge and education. So we have more or less verbally expressed what we mean by education. 现在，提问者问， 自我了解和教育间的关系是什么。 我们已经或多或少从口头上表达了我们所谓的教育意味着什么。
10:00 And what do we mean by self-knowledge? This 'know thyself' has been a catchword, or a slogan, for millennia. The Greeks said it, the ancient Indians said it. And what do we mean by that word 'know yourself'? Can you ever know yourself? Please, we are questioning, I am not laying down any law. Please, we'll discuss this. Can we know ourselves ever? Can I say to myself, I know myself? Is that ever possible? And when you say, I know myself, in it is involved a certain conceit, a certain sense of arrogance of achievement that one has really, deeply investigated into oneself and has come to a conclusion. And that conclusion gives you the assurance that you know yourself. This is what we call knowing yourself. Now, I want to question that. 那么，我们所说的自我了解又意味着什么呢？ “认识你自己”已经是一个上千年的流行语了， 又或是一个口号， 希腊人说过，古印度人说过。 那么，我们所说的 “认识你自己”意味着什么呢？ 你究竟是否能认识你自己？ 拜托，我们在一起质疑，我不是在制定任何规则。 拜托，我们要讨论这个。 我们究竟能否认识我们自己？ 我是否能对自己说，我了解我自己？ 那到底是否可能？ 而当你说我了解我自己时，有某种自负含于其中， 有一定程度的源于成就感的傲慢， 也就是，我已经很真切、很深入地探究了自身 并且已经得出了一个结论。 那结论给予了你一种你了解你自身的保证。 这就是我们所谓的自我了解。 现在，我想要质疑这一点。
11:50 So we are questioning both the self-knowledge and education, and their relationship with each other in the school, college, university, and daily life. Is that all right? I am talking, why don't you? Please, have a dialogue, let's have a dialogue about it. One sends one's children to a school, the State demands it and so on and so on. So you send them. And they are taught there something totally different from their daily life, from childhood. As they grow up the contradiction grows more and more and more. This is inevitable, you must have seen this in your own lives. That the acquisition of knowledge has become tremendously important because that gives one a social security. Social security being you can earn a livelihood, in that there is a security, a job, etc. So, the cultivation of knowledge, which is gathering information and storing it up in the brain as memory, and using that memory skilfully, which will earn us a livelihood, and neglecting the whole area of human existence. 因此，我们在同时质疑自我了解和教育， 以及，它们彼此间在学校里、 学院里、大学里以及日常生活里的关系。 这样行吗？ 我在质疑，你们为什么不呢？ 拜托，进行一次对话，让我们对此进行一次对话。 我们送自己的孩子去一间学校， 政府要求如此，以及其他等等。 因此，你送他们去上学。 然后，他们在那儿被教导 一些与他们的日常生活、 与他们的童年完全不同的事物。 随着他们的成长， 矛盾也在成倍增长。 这是不可避免的，你肯定在你们自身的生活中见证过。 对于知识的获取变得极其重要， 因为那会给人一种社会保障。 社会保障意味着，你可以挣得一份生计， 在那之中，有一份安全感、一份工作等等。 因此，知识的培育， 也就是，把汇集而来的知识以记忆的形式囤积在大脑里， 然后很娴熟地运用那份记忆，这会让我们挣得一份生计， 进而忽略掉了人类生活的整个领域。
13:55 When you send the children to the school, they are being trained to conform. Right? Would you question any of these statements? They are trained to conform, conform to the left ideologies, central ideologies or extreme right ideologies, religious, Catholic, Protestant, Hindu. So they are being very carefully conditioned both at home and at school. And as they grow up, they live within that conditioned area. Am I saying something extravagant? I hope you are going to discuss. They live in that conditioned area, they accept all the traditions of that society – wars, you know, the whole business. 当你把孩子送到学校， 他们被训练去顺从。 不是吗？你会质疑这些说法吗？ 他们被训练去顺从， 顺从于左倾意识形态、 中间意识形态或者极端右倾意识形态， 宗教信仰，天主教、新教、印度教。 因此，他们受到了非常周密的制约， 不论在家还是在学校。 当他们长大后， 他们生活在那局限的领域之中。 我是在说一些很夸张的东西吗？我希望你们会进行讨论。 他们生活在那局限的领域， 他们接受那个社会的所有传统 ——战争，你们了解这整个把戏。
15:15 Now he says to me, the questioner says, what is the relationship between self-knowledge and education. There is none as we understand what education means now. It's only when you don't quite fit into the society you are called neurotic, you have a problem. And then you go to the analysts, or the psychotherapists, and they try to somehow help you to conform. So what is the relationship between the two? When do we begin to enquire, if we do at all, into the whole structure and the nature of the self? Do we ever do that? 现在，他对我说，提问者问， 自我了解和教育之间是什么样的关系。 就我们如今所理解的教育的含义而言，它们没有任何关系。 只有当你没能很好地适应这个社会时， 你才被称作神经质，你是有问题的。 然后，你去找精神分析师，或者心理治疗师， 他们尝试着帮助你与社会保持一致。 那么，两者间的关系是什么呢？ 我们什么时候开始去探询——如果我们真想探询的话—— 自我的整个结构和本质？ 我们究竟是否那样做过？
16:26 Q: It seems to me it is possible if I don't know myself, then I begin to enquire. 问：于我而言这是可能的，如果我不了解自己， 那么，我会开始探询。
16:35 K: But do we ever say, I don't know myself? Do we ever question, ask, what is it all about? My action, my living, the wars, the conflicts, the misery, the relationship between man and woman, the everlasting struggle? We never ask, what is this human being who is caught in this? We only ask that question, to understand oneself, when we are in a tremendous crisis. 克：可是，我们究竟承认过我并不了解我自己吗？ 我们是否曾质疑、询问过它究竟是怎么回事？ 我的行为、我的生活， 战争、冲突、苦难、 男人和女人间的关系， 那持续不断的斗争？ 我们从不询问， 受困于这一切的这个人究竟是怎么回事？ 我们只有在身处一个重大危机时， 才会问那样的问题来了解自身。
17:29 Q: I think that education is developing skill, and 'know thyself' is clarity. 问：我认为，教育就是培养技术， 而“认识你自己”就是清明。
17:37 K: I understand, madame, but we are talking first about what actually is happening in the world. Not your theories or my theories, but what is going on with your children and other children. In that, in schools, there is neither compassion nor clarity, nor the communication of that clarity and compassion through skill. That doesn't exist. It only exists as a theory because you have heard me talk about it, or you might have read about it somewhere. But actually deal with facts, not what you or I think education should be. If we know what the facts are then we can move from there. But if we start with theories then we are lost. You have your theory, and somebody else has his theory, and we'll never get together. If we take what actually is happening in all the schools throughout the world, the speaker has been to many schools in the west, and here, etc., there are five schools in India with which we are concerned, and there's Brockwood and so on, Canada and Ojai, California. So please let us deal with facts. 克：我理解，女士，可是，首先，我们在谈 世界上实际正发生着什么。 而非你的理论，或我的理论， 而是，你的孩子和别的孩子都在发生着什么？ 其中，在学校里，既没有慈悲也没有清明， 也没有对那份清明的交流， 也没有通过技巧展现的慈悲。 那些都不存在。 那些只能作为一种理论存在， 因为，你听我谈起过， 或者，你可能在某处读到过。 可是，要实事求是地与事实打交道， 而不是你或我认为教育应该是什么样的。 如果我们知道事实是什么，我们便可以从那里开始行动。 然而，如果我们从理论出发，我们便会迷失。 你有你的理论，别人也有他的理论， 我们永远都无法聚在一起。 如果我们着眼真实发生在 全世界所有学校里的事情， 讲话者去过西方以及这里的许多学校， 在印度，有五所学校是和我们有关联的， 以及这里的布洛克伍德等等，加拿大和加利福尼亚的欧亥。 因此，请让我们与事实打交道。
19:24 Q: I don't see the situation as black as you've described, because there are many attempts in the world to make schools who are concerned with human development. For instance, the Waldorf School created by Rudold Steiner. 问：我并不认为情况如你所描述的那般消极， 因为世界上有许多人 在尝试建立关切人类发展的学校。 例如，鲁道夫·史代纳创办的华德福学校。
19:35 K: Sir, there are exceptional schools, please. There are one or two rare schools, perhaps in Germany, perhaps in England, one or two, who are concerned with the total education of man. Right? Don't let us say, your school is better than mine. 克：先生，确实有些例外的学校存在。 有一所或两所稀有的学校存在， 或许在德国，或许在英国，一所或是两所， 它们关切着人整体的教育。 不是吗？ 不要说，你的学校比我的好。
20:08 To educate, we said, as it actually takes place, is to cultivate memory. That memory is used skilfully – that knowledge – in earning a livelihood. So society demands that every human being have some kind of skill to earn a livelihood, or help the student to conform to a particular ideology, and so on and so on. So we are asking: what is the relationship between the two, self-knowledge and education? We know what education more or less is, except there are exceptional schools. I don't know any but there are, let's hope for humanity's sake, there are exceptional schools. When do we ask this question, that is, 'I want to know myself'? When do we ever ask, if we are at all thoughtful, when do we ask it, do we ever ask it? Do we say, I must know myself, otherwise there is no education. When do we ask it? 教育，我们说过，正如实际发生的， 就是去培育记忆。 那份记忆会被娴熟地运用 ——那份知识——来挣得一份生计。 因此，社会要求每一个人 都要拥有某种技术，从而挣得一份生计， 又或者，帮助学生遵守某种特定的意识形态， 以及等等，等等。 那么，我们问：什么是这两者间的关系？ 自我了解和教育之间。 我们或多或少知道教育是什么， 除去那些特别的学校。 我对那些学校一无所知，可是它们确实存在， 看在全人类的份上，让我们祈祷有些特别的学校存在。 我们什么时候会问这个问题， 也就是，“我想了解我自己”？ 我们究竟什么时候会问，如果我们有那么点思考的话， 我们什么时候会这么问？我们到底这么问过吗？ 我们是否认为，我必须了解自己，否则就根本不存在教育。 我们什么时候会这么问？
22:04 Q: When we suffer. 问：当我们受苦时。
22:14 K: When you suffer, no, do you ask? When do you ask? When you suffer. Then what takes place when you suffer? Do you say, why am I suffering? What is the root of suffering? Or do you say – please, I am just asking, I am not laying down law – or do you say, I want to escape from it, I want comfort, I am lonely, desperately lonely, I have lost everything, I have lost the person I thought I loved, I am left completely lonely in this world? Right? Then there is the suffering, and that suffering makes you seek comfort, rely on somebody, come to a conclusion, and so on and so on, turn to God, or whatever you prefer. So you really never ask yourself – actually, if you are truthful to yourself – never ask oneself, what am I, what is this? Right? Now we are saying, let us examine both and see their relationship, if there is such a thing as separate education and self-knowledge as something separate. I don't know if you see. Are the two things separate? You understand? We have divided it as education and self-knowledge. Then we try to find a relationship between the two. But I question very seriously whether the two are separate. 克：当你受苦时，不，你会问吗？ 你什么时候会问？当你受苦时。 那么，当你受苦时，发生了什么？ 你会不会问，为什么我在受苦？ 受苦的根源是什么？ 还是，你会说 ——拜托，我只是在询问，我不是在制定规则—— 还是，你会说，我想要逃离它， 我想要慰藉，我很孤独，极其孤独， 我已经失去了一切， 失去了我认为我深爱的人， 剩我孤身一人留在这世界上？ 不是吗？ 那么，存在着苦难， 而那样的苦难促使你寻求慰藉， 依赖某人，得出某个结论， 等等，等等， 求助于上帝，或者你所偏好的任何东西。 以至于，你从未真正质问过你自己 ——确实如此，如果你对自己诚实的话—— 你从未质问过自身，我是什么，这到底是什么？ 不是吗？ 现在，我们说， 让我们检视这两者，看看它们之间的关系， 是否有分离出来的教育这样的东西， 以及独立存在的自我了解这样的东西。 我不知道你是否明白了。 这两者是各自分离的吗？ 你明白吗？ 我们已经把它分裂成了教育和自我了解。 然后，我们尝试着找到这两者间的关系。 可是，我非常严肃地质疑这两者是否是分开的。
24:29 Q: (Italian) 问：（意大利语）
24:53 K: You yourself – our friend says – you yourself have separated the physical, the psychological and so on. So, this leads to somewhere else, that is, is the psychological enquiry, does it affect psychosomatically? That is, if there is psychologically perfect health, psychologically perfect health in the sense: no conflict, sanity, no me and you, psychologically there is no division, that does surely affect the physical, one is much more healthy, vigorous, etc. 克：你自身——我们的朋友说—— 你自身已经分裂为生理、 心理等等方面。 因此，这会导向另一个问题，那就是 是否心理上的探询 会对身心产生影响？ 也就是说，是否存在心理上的绝对健康状态， 心理上的绝对健康是指： 没有冲突，心智健全， 没有你我之分，心理上没有分裂的存在， 那的确会对生理产生影响， 人会更加健康、精力充沛，等等。
25:57 So we are now asking, please: what is the relationship between the two, and is there a division at all between the self enquiring into what is the 'me' and education? Are you meeting this question? Right. 那么，我们现在问： 这两者间的关系是什么， 以及，究竟是否有一种分别存在于 对“我”为何物的自我探究和教育之间？ 你们是否领会了这个问题？ 好的。
26:22 How am I, as a teacher – not sitting on the platform, I don't mean that – in a school, how am I to convey to the student both the acquisition of physiological facts: knowledge, mathematics, history, geography and all the rest of it, and also in the very teaching of those subjects cultivate the enquiry to look at himself as the representative of all that. I wonder if I am making myself clear. 作为一名老师 ——并非指坐在讲台上，我不是那个意思—— 在学校里，我要如何教授学生 既获取生理学知识： 知识、数学、历史、地理，诸如此类， 并且在教授那些科目的同时， 还培养他们观察自我的探询之心， 让他们视自己为人类的代表。 我想知道我是否表达清楚了。
27:16 If I am a teacher of history, how am I to help the student not only to know the meaning of history, which is the story of man, but also help him to understand himself who is the man. Are you catching what I am saying? Does this interest you? Or you say, for God's sake let's talk not about education because I have no children – just a minute sir – drop that subject, let's talk about personal problems? Which is it? Are you interested in this? 如果我是一个历史老师， 我要如何帮助学生 不仅仅了解历史的意义 ——历史就是人类的故事—— 还要帮助他了解作为人类的他自己。 你们理解我所说的了吗？ 这让你感兴趣吗？ 还是说你认为，看在上帝的份上，我们还是别谈论教育了吧！ 因为我没有孩子——请等一等，先生—— 丢掉那个话题，让我们来谈谈个人的问题？ 是哪一个？你对这个感兴趣吗？
28:08 Q: Yes. 问：是的。
28:09 K: Be sure, because this is not entertainment. 克：肯定点，因为这不是娱乐消遣。
28:17 So how am I, a teacher in a school, to help him to understand himself through the subject which I am teaching, which is history? Right? We have talked a great deal about this in various schools so I'm rather good at it. Sorry, I didn't mean that. 那么，我，作为学校里的一个老师， 要如何帮助他了解他自己 ——通过我所教的历史科目的呢？ 对吗？ 我们在各个学校里大量地探讨过这个话题， 因此，我十分擅长于此。 抱歉，我并不是那个意思。
28:53 History is the story of man: the wars, the kings, the tyrannies, the so-called cultural evolution of man from the Stone Age, etc. How am I to teach him history so that through history he is understanding himself, which is the total development of man? Right? Now how am I to do it? If you are the teacher, put yourself in the position of a teacher, and how are you to teach history that way? Mathematics, or physics, anything? That's the only way to cultivate self-knowledge and at the same time acquire knowledge of various subjects, so that they are not separate, they are always moving together, flowing together. 历史是人类的故事： 战争、国王、独裁者， 所谓的人类文化的进步， 从石器时代就开始的，等等。 我要如何教他历史， 于是通过历史他在了解他自己， 也就是人类的整个发展？ 对吗？ 那么我该如何付诸行动？ 如果你是老师，把你自己放在一名老师的位置上， 然后，你该如何那样去教历史呢？ 数学， 或是物理，任何科目？ 那是培育自我了解 同时获取各科知识的唯一方式， 从而这两者便不会分裂， 它们永远并肩同行， 共同流动。
30:18 Q: Sir, I don't know myself, can I be a teacher? 问：先生，我并不了解我自己，我可以成为一名老师吗？
30:33 K: Bene. Can I be a teacher of this kind if I don't know myself first? Right? So you are saying, let the house burn while I am... 克：好的。 如果我没有首先了解我自己，我是否能够成为这样的老师？ 对吗？ 那么，你是说， 就让屋子烧着吧，同时我正在
30:56 K: Have you understood?

Q: No. 		克：你理解了吗？

问：没有。
31:01 K: That is, I must understand myself first before I do anything. You see the falseness of it? 克：也就是，在我做任何事之前，我必须首先了解我自己。 你认识到其中的错处了吗？
31:17 Q: (Italian) 问：（意大利语）
31:21 K: No, please look at it, sir. Must I wait till I have complete knowledge of myself before I teach in a school? 克：不，请看看这点，先生。 我是否必须等到我具备了彻底的自我了解后， 才能在一所学校里教学？
31:44 Q: Not in a general school but in a school of this type. 问：并非在一所平常的学校，而是在一所这种类型的学校里。
31:47 K: I am talking, wait sir. In a school of this kind, all right, I'll accept that for the moment. Which means what? I can't teach till I know myself wholly. If that is so, then the children, the students, are being thrown to the wolves. 克：我正在讲，请等等先生。 在一所这种类型的学校里，好的，我会暂时接受这个说法。 这意味着什么？ 我不能教学，除非我完全了解了我自己。 如果真是那样的话， 那么，孩子们、学生们，都正在被送入虎口。
32:37 K: Have you understood?

Q: (Italian) 		克：你理解了吗？

问：（意大利语）
32:41 K: One moment, please. Listen to me. Not knowing the importance of self-knowledge., or what is the right kind of education, we are saying a teacher who is interested in both, in the very teaching of it he is learning himself. You've understood? In teaching history and his relationship to the student, the student and myself, in the very act of teaching I am discovering how I am acting, how I am thinking, what my motive is, so there is constant enquiry, not only into the history and teaching but also as I am teaching I am discovering myself. That's what we are trying to do in the various schools. I won't mention schools. Don't get interested, I am not doing propaganda. That is, when the teacher is really interested in self-knowledge and education, and tries to find out how to teach through history – I am taking one particular subject – through history to find out what he is and learn at the same time the whole story of man. This can be done surely, if the teacher is really interested in this. 克：请等一下，听我说。 尽管并不懂得自我了解的重要性， 以及什么是正确的教育， 但是我们认为，一名对这两者都感兴趣的老师 在教学的过程中，他就在了解他自己。 你理解了吗？ 在教授历史的过程中，在他和学生的关系中， 学生和我自己，就在教学的行动中 我发现了我是如何行动、如何思考的，我的动机是什么， 所以，会有不断的探询，这探询不仅限于历史和教学， 在教学的同时，也进行着对自我的探索。 那正是我们尝试在各个学校去做的事情。 我不会再提及学校了。 别对此提起兴趣，我不是在做宣传。 换言之， 当老师真的对自我了解和教育感兴趣， 并且尝试着去探究如何通过历史的教学 ——我只是拿某个特定学科举例而已—— 通过历史的教学去发现他自己真实的样子 同时学习人类的整个故事。 这必定是可行的， 如果老师真的对此感兴趣的话。
34:33 Q: I think a lot of people here are in the situation that they are not teaching it but they are in a school to become a teacher. And that school is not interested in knowing yourself, it is only interested in... 问：我认为在这儿的很多人 都处于这样的一种境况：他们并没有在教授这个， 不过他们在一所学校学习，将要成为一名老师。 然而，那所学校对于自我了解并不感兴趣， 它感兴趣的是
34:48 K: I know, that's why we want to have a special teachers' education centre, and so on, I am not going into all that. We are going to do it. 克：我知道，那就是为什么我们想成立一个专门的教师教育中心， 等等，我就不讲那些了。 我们正打算那么做。
34:58 Q: What I mean is I am in the situation myself. I see that in my school, there's no interest in this kind of thing. And I would like to discuss what do you do with it? Do you have to stop? 问：我的意思是，我自己就处于那种境况中。 我看到在我的学校里， 大家对这样的事并不感兴趣。 我想要讨论的是，对此你会怎么做？ 你是否不得不停下？
35:16 K: Madame, how can one answer such a question? I have a son – I haven't, but suppose I have a son. I can't afford to send him to the right kind of school because I haven't the money, my husband and I have separated. This is a common occurrence in modern society, the breaking up of the family, and I am left with two or three children. What am I to do? Go on, it's your job, enquire. I have to earn money to support them, work like a slave for these four children or two children or one child, and educate them in the right sense, because one has talked about it. As there are no such schools, except very, very few, what are you going to do? You follow, go into it. You should think before you have children, before you get married, of the whole thing, not afterwards. Right? We are always thinking what shall we do when it is a fait accompli, not before. You say, I am going to get married – if I want to marry – or have children, what is going to happen to them? That is the self-knowing. You understand? But not say, well, I have got four children, for God's sake, what am I to do. There is the State that will help you and so on. Or there are special schools where you can have scholarships, you know all that, so don't let's enter into that. 克：女士，我们要如何回答这样的一个问题呢？ 我有个儿子——其实我没有，可是假设我有个儿子。 我无法负担他去正确的那类学校， 因为我没有钱， 我的丈夫和我已经分开了。 这是现代社会一个常见的现象， 家庭的破碎， 然后，我独自带着两个或是三个孩子。 我应该怎么办？ 继续，这是你们的工作，去探询。 我不得不赚钱去供养他们，像个奴隶般地劳作， 为了这四个或是两个，又或是一个孩子， 并且要正确地教育他们， 因为有人已经谈论过这个了。 由于并不存在这样的学校，除了极少数的， 那么，你要怎么做？ 请你深入探究一下。 你应该在你有孩子前， 在你结婚前， 便开始思考这整件事，而不是在此之后。 不是吗？ 我们总是在一切既成事实后再思考 我们该做什么，而非之前。 你说，我要结婚了——如果我想要结婚的话—— 或者想要孩子了，那么，他们会怎么样呢？ 这就是自我了解。 你理解了吗？ 而不是说，好吧，我已经有四个孩子了， 看在上帝的份儿上，我该怎么办？ 有政府会帮助你等等。 又或者，有些专门的学校能给你奖学金等等， 你知道那些，因此我们就不谈了。
37:28 So what is a teacher to do? A teacher of the right kind, not who just says, I am bored with all the other work, at least I can become a teacher. And therefore he wants... you follow? Generally the teachers are those who can't get into business, who can't earn a lot of money, who this and that and that, eventually become teachers. I don't mean there are not exceptions. There are exceptions, thank God. Right? 那么，一个老师该做什么呢？ 一名正确的老师，并不是一个只会嚷着 “所有别的工作都让我感到无聊， 可至少我还能成为一名老师”的人。 因此，他想要……你明白吗？ 大致上来说，老师 就是那些做不了生意、 发不了财、 这样或是那样的人，最终成了老师。 我并不是说没有例外。 是有例外存在的，感谢上帝。 不是吗？
38:08 So what shall we do now? How shall I teach history, mathematics, if I am a teacher, so as to convey both the acquisition of knowledge and also at the same time, to know oneself? I think if the teacher is really interested in it, it is a creative thing, you discover, you don't say you are going to teach in this way or that way, then the teacher gets bored. But if he is creative, interested, it flows out of him. Right. 那么，我们现在该怎么做呢？ 如果我是一个教师的话，我应该如何教历史、数学， 才能既传授了知识 同时也了解自己呢？ 我认为，如果老师真的对此感兴趣， 这便是一件创意十足的事情，你是在探索， 你不会说，你要用这种或那种方式去教学， 随后，这个老师便感到无聊。 可是如果他充满创造力和兴趣，行动便会从他自身流淌而出。 就是这样。
38:52 Q: The best teacher is the one who knows there is no separation between him and what he teaches. So that he is the history, he is mathematics while he is teaching it. 问：最好的老师，是认识到 他自身与他所教事物之间没有分别存在的老师。 由此，他就是历史，他就是数学 ——当他在进行教学时。
39:05 K: Yes, that is what we are saying. Are we saying something different from you? 克：是的，这正是我们所说的。 我们所讨论的东西不同于你所说的吗？
39:09 Q: No.

K: Ah, all right. The other question is – is that enough, Narayan, have we discussed sufficiently that point? – the other question is: what is the relationship between discontent and meditation? We will come to you afterwards. What is the relationship between discontent and meditation? What do you think? As we said, discontent most of us have. Either it becomes an all consuming flame or it is soon satisfied, smothered by getting married, by having a job, by having children, or by joining some society, community, or becoming some ideologist. That flame which should be burning is gradually smothered. That is a fact. One is totally discontented with society, with the establishment, with short hair, grows long hair, you know the whole thing that goes on. So can discontent never be smothered? Never. Though one may have children, wife, never let that flame wither away, die, become ashes. Go on sir, investigate into yourselves as we are talking, dialogue. I don't seem to have any dialogue. That's one problem: whether it is possible to keep this discontent at its highest excellence. That is, excellence means to reach the top of the mountain. Mediocrity means to go half way. Right? We are explaining what the dictionary says. 		问：没有。

克：啊，好的。 另一个问题是 ——是不是够了，那拉扬，我们是否已经充分讨论了那一点？—— 另一个问题是：什么是 不满和冥想之间的关系？ 我们会稍后讨论你的问题。 什么是不满和冥想之间的关系？ 你们有什么想法？ 如我们所言，我们大多数人都有不满。 这不满要么变成一簇熊熊的火焰， 要么很快就满足了、熄灭了， 因为结婚，因为有了工作、有了孩子， 或者因为加入了某个社团、集体， 又或是变成了某种思想家。 那本应燃烧着的火焰渐渐熄灭了。 那是一个事实。 有人完全不满于社会、当局， 不满于短发，于是蓄了长发， 你们知道发生着的所有事情。 那么，不满可以永不熄灭吗？ 永不。 尽管我们可能会有孩子、妻子， 但绝不让那火焰委顿、 熄灭、变成灰烬。 继续，先生，去探究你自己，随着我们的谈论、 对话。 我似乎并没进行过任何对话。 这是一个问题： 是否有可能把这份不满保持在它的巅峰处。 换言之，巅峰意味着到达高山的顶峰。 平庸意味着半途而废。 不是吗？ 我们正在解释字典里的释义。
42:06 And meditation. What is meditation? Real, not all the childish stuff, not all the immature gurus with their immature disciples, but what is real meditation? We said that, we said real meditation is to empty the content of one's consciousness. That is, no jealousy, no anger, the whole content, without effort. We went into that. 还有冥想。 什么是冥想？ 真正的冥想，而非那些幼稚的东西， 也不是那些不成熟的古鲁与他们不成熟的门徒， 而是什么是真正的冥想？ 我们曾说过，我们说过 真正的冥想是清空我们意识的内容。 也就是说，没有嫉妒、没有愤怒， 清空所有的内容， 不费吹灰之力。 我们探讨过这个问题了。
42:49 So, can these two move together, or must they be separate, or the very discontent, keeping that flame alive is a form of meditation? You get it? 那么，这两者是否可以并肩前行， 还是，它们必须分开， 又或者，正是这不满， 让火焰持续燃烧的不满正是冥想的一种形式？ 你理解了吗？
43:06 Q: It seems very often that discontent is channelled against somebody or something, or some group. 问：那种不满似乎总是针对于某人 或是某事，又或是某个群体。
43:14 K: That's right. 克：是那样的。
43:15 Q: How can we see this discontent without labelling it? 问：我们如何能认识这种不满而不去给它贴标签？
43:27 K: If discontent has a cause, then the effect of it is to be satisfied, by joining this or that or doing this or that, if there is a cause. Now is there a discontent without cause? I wonder if you see this. Suppose one is discontented, not with society, with my wife, or with my group, or with my friends, but discontent. Don't you know that? No? Not with something, or I want something and I can't get it therefore I am discontent. I want to be a great man, and I can't because I haven't the capacity and I am terribly discontent, frustrated. So, there is a channelling of that particular discontent along certain lines so that it is gradually diminished and dies. So we are asking: is there a discontent without cause? 克：如果不满有一种起因， 那么，它的结果就是为了得到满足， 通过加入这个或是那个，又或者做这或是做那， 如果有个原因的话。 那么，是否有一种不满是没有起因的？ 我想知道你们是否明白了这点。 假设我是不满的，并非不满于社会、 我的妻子或是集体，又或是朋友， 而是，我就是不满。 你不知道这种情况吗？ 不知道？ 并不是对什么不满， 也不是因为我想要什么却无法得到 所以感到不满。 我想成为一个伟大的人， 可是我办不到，因为我没有能力， 于是我极度不满、 沮丧。 因此这种特别的不满有一个渠道， 沿着特定的路线，它会逐渐减弱、消失。 因此，我们问：是否存在没有起因的不满？
45:03 Q: It has to have some relation with actuality. 问：它必定和事实有某种关系。
45:10 K: The actuality is: I am discontent with my society, I am discontent with the pattern which society has given me, or I am discontent with the education I am getting, I am discontent – I don't want to have a job, go to university and I get a job, but I want to do something entirely different: wander the world with little money, or help along. So that way you will observe, if you have gone into it sufficiently deeply, that gradually this discontent withers away. Right? Haven't you noticed this? There are some people who are ardent leftists, extreme leftists, the moment they get married and a job, the thing quietens down. We happen to know many of such cases. Of course there are exceptions, don't jump on the exceptions. 克：事实是： 我不满于我的社会， 我不满于社会给予我的模式， 或是，我不满于我受到的教育， 我是不满的——我不想工作， 进入大学，然后得到一份工作。 而是，我想要做些完全不同的事： 带着很少的钱去周游世界，或是沿路帮助别人。 然后你就会发现 ——如果你已经探究得足够深入的话—— 这种不满渐渐消失了。 不是吗？ 你没注意到这些吗？ 有一些激进的左翼分子、极端的左翼分子， 从他们成家立业的那一刻起，他们便安静了下来。 我们碰巧知道很多这样的例子。 当然也有例外，不要去说那些例外了。
46:16 So, we are asking: discontent is to keep that thing alive, flaming. Which is to be discontent with tradition: the tradition of war, the tradition of belonging to a group, the tribal instinct of the tradition of saying my group and your group, we and they. Now, enquiring into all that – which is the outcome of discontent – is a form of meditation, isn't it? Which is, in enquiring why one accepts a religious authority, or even political authority, or ideological authority, in enquiring into that one discovers one accepts it because one is frightened to stand by oneself, the fear of loneliness. So, that fear of loneliness is smothered by saying, I must be with you, I must escape. So the understanding of that fear is part of meditation. So there is always... Sir, discontent comes the highest form of discontent is freedom. The excellence of discontent brings freedom. Do it, not verbally accept it. See the depth of such a thing. 那么，我们问： 不满是为了让那个东西保持鲜活、 燃烧。 也就是不满于传统： 战争的传统， 隶属于某个团体的传统， 传统的部落本能 ——声称这是我的团体和你们的团体、 我们和他们。 现在，深入探究那一切——也就是不满的产物—— 就是冥想的一种形式，不是吗？ 也就是，通过探询 为什么我们接受一个宗教权威， 甚或是政治权威，又或是思想上的权威， 在深入探询的过程中，我们发现我们接受了这些， 是因为我们都惧怕独立无依， 害怕孤身一人。 所以，对孤独的恐惧会被 “我必须和你在一起，我必须逃离孤独”的想法熄灭。 因此，对于那份恐惧的了解便是冥想的一部分。 所以永远都有 先生，不满到来 最高形式的不满就是自由。 极度的不满会带来自由。 行动起来，而不是口头上接受它。 看到这件事情的深度。
48:46 Q: I wanted to say how difficult it is to differentiate real discontent with the discontent based on self-pity. Sometimes one deceives oneself very easily. One thinks that one is really discontent but there is no cause behind it. 问：我想要说的是，区分真正的不满 和基于自哀自怜的不满，是十分困难的。 有时，人是非常容易自欺的。 有人认为他真的非常不满， 可是，在这不满背后却并没有起因。
49:02 K: Yes, sir. 克：是的，先生。
49:07 So discontent and meditation go together. If you are content with a system, a guru, or what ancient people have described, and you accept it and practise it, you are smothering discontent. But if you say, look, what do you mean by it, why should I accept any system of meditation? Who are you to tell me how I am to meditate? There are lots of teachers who are giving lessons how to meditate, which is the acceptance of authority. When you question it, the flame is keeping alive. I don't know if you understand. You understand this, of course. 因此，不满和冥想是并肩同行的。 如果你满足于一种体系、一个古鲁， 又或是古人所描述的东西， 并且你接受它、练习它， 那么，你便是在泯灭不满。 可是，如果你说，等等，你说的是什么意思？ 为什么我要接受任何的冥想体系？ 你凭什么告诉我我应该如何冥想？ 有许多教导如何冥想的老师， 这就是对权威的接受。 当你质疑它时，火焰是一直燃烧的。 我不知道你是否理解了。当然，你理解这个。
50:10 Q: (Italian) You said, discontent is freedom. 问：（意大利语）你说过，不满就是自由。
50:17 K: No, discontent brings freedom. 克：不，不满带来自由。
50:26 Q: (Italian) Discontent is a difficult position, nearly suffering. 问：（意大利语）不满是一种艰难的处境， 近似于苦难。
50:32 K: No, you see, discontent, he says, is nearly suffering. You suffer because you can't get something out of discontent. I am married to a woman I don't like, I am discontent. 克：不，你看，他说不满近似于苦难。 你受苦是因为你无法从不满中得到某些东西。 我和一个我不喜欢的女人结婚了，我是不满的。
50:54 Now, let's go on to something else, which is, he said, what is the relationship between death and meditation. Right? Are you interested in all this? Not interested, is it part of your life? Let us approach death with total discontent. Will you? That is, not accept any form of comfort, any form of explanation, approach it with any idea, or be afraid to see, understand what death is. So, is there a tremendous discontent to find out? Which means there is no fear, there is no seeking of comfort, no me, what is going to happen to me. So can we approach it that way? 现在，让我们继续探讨另一个问题，也就是， 他问的，死亡和冥想之间的关系是什么？ 对吗？ 你们对这些感兴趣吗？ 不感兴趣，可它是你生命的一部分吗？ 让我们怀揣着极度的不满来着手死亡的话题。 行吗？ 也就是说，不接受任何形式的慰藉、 任何形式的解释， 不带着任何观点去接近它， 也不要惧怕， 而是去观察、理解死亡是什么。 那么，是否存在一种为了探明真相的极度不满？ 这意味着，没有惧怕， 没有对于慰藉的追寻， 没有“我”，我身上将会发生什么。 我们能否这样去探究死亡这个话题？
52:37 One may be married, have children. The man goes out and may have an accident, killed, and the wife is left alone with children. She feels terribly lonely – don't you know all this? – lonely, desperate. And she is not really concerned about death, the whole meaning of death, but she is concerned about herself and what is going to happen to the children, who is going to support them. I have lost somebody whom one loved, and so on and so on. One never says, all right, I want to find out what death means. You understand what I am talking about? Can we go into it that way? Which is, approach it with total discontent, not knowing where it will lead me. Can you do that? There is no hope. You know, I don't know if you know what it means to have no hope, not to be depressed, not to say, my God, I am lost. But hope is born out of despair. When there is no despair there is no hope. I wonder. Why is there a despair? Because one is left alone. This sense of great loneliness. One may have a lot of money, children will be properly educated, you may have a house, or whatever it is, there is this intense feeling of desperate loneliness. Don't you know it all? Don't you know it? You may have friends, you may live with lots of people in a group, and there is occasional intimation of this extraordinary sense of isolation, loneliness, without any relationship with anybody. Haven't you had all this? You see then, especially when we are young, one doesn't know what to do. One has no sense of direction, no somebody on whom you can trust. Nothing, you are just left absolutely alone. Has it ever happened to any of you? 一个人可能会结婚生子。 他可能会在出门时遭遇意外， 被杀害了，然后，妻子孤身一人带着孩子。 她感受到强烈的孤独 ——你们难道不知道这一切吗？—— 孤独、绝望。 而她并不十分关心死亡， 以及死亡的整个意义， 但她担忧她自己， 以及孩子将来会怎么样， 谁来养活他们。 我已经失去了深爱的某人，等等，等等。 我们从不说，好的，我想探究死亡的意义是什么。 你了解我在说什么吗？ 我们能够那样探究这个问题吗？ 也就是，带着极度的不满来着手， 并不知道它将会引领我到哪里。 你能那样做吗？ 没有任何希望。 你瞧，我并不知道你是否明白“没有希望”意味着什么， 不是变得沮丧， 不是说，我的上帝，我迷失了。 而是希望源自于绝望。 当没有绝望的存在时，希望也是不存在的。 我很好奇。 为什么有绝望的存在？ 因为有人只剩自己孤身一人。 这份强烈的孤独感。 你可能拥有许多的金钱，孩子也能得到良好的教育， 你可能拥有一所房产，或随便别的什么， 但仍有这种强烈的绝望的孤独感。 你们难道不是都很了解它吗？ 你们难道不了解它吗？ 你可能有朋友，你可能在一个集体里和很多人一起生活， 却也时不时地有着 极度的孤独感与寂寞感， 感觉与任何人都没有任何关系。 你没有体验过这一切吗？ 然后，你也知道， 特别是当我们年轻时， 我们不知道该做什么。 我们没有方向感， 没有你可以信任的人。 什么也没有，你是绝对的孤身一人。 这曾发生在你们之中的任何人身上吗？
56:32 Then there is the fear of that loneliness. And fear being much stronger than loneliness, you escape from it. You know all this. You escape from it, you run away from it, you smother it, you do everything not to be frightened, or you say, I must face this loneliness. And when you force yourself to face this loneliness, there is nothing, it doesn't respond, there's no answer because you are building a wall of resistance against it. I wonder if you know all this. 随后便有了对那种孤独的恐惧。 并且，恐惧感要远远比孤独感强烈， 你会逃离它。 你知道这一切。 你躲避它，你逃离它，你抑制它， 你为了不再恐惧做了你能做的一切， 或者你说，我必须面对这孤独。 然后，当你强迫你自己来面对这孤独时， 其实什么也没有， 这孤独并不会回应，也没有任何答案， 因为你在修建一堵抵抗的城墙来反抗它。 我想知道你们知否知道这一切。
57:23 No? We are talking about something very common to every human being. 不知道？ 我们在讨论一件对于每个人来说都稀松平常的事情。
57:41 And the question then is, to understand what loneliness means. To go into loneliness, what does it mean, how does it come about? Don't we, in every day of our life, in our activity – of course there are always exceptions, so don't let's talk about the exceptions – isn't there in our daily life, in our activities, we are always isolating ourselves? No? You understand? One goes to the office, or the factory, or some kind of work, there you are climbing the ladder of success, you want to become something, higher and higher, which is a form of isolation, isn't it? No? When a local priest wants to become the archbishop it is the same pattern, or a communist, or a commune leader wants... 那么，问题是，去了解孤独意味着什么， 去探究孤独， 孤独意味着什么， 它是如何产生的？ 我们是否在我们生活的每一天里， 在我们的活动中 ——当然了，例外是永远存在的， 因此我们就别讨论例外了—— 是否在我们的日常生活里， 在我们的活动中，我们总是在孤立我们自己？ 不是？ 你明白吗？ 我们去办公室，或是工厂，又或某种工作， 在那里你攀登着成功的阶梯， 你想要成为某个越来越高端的人物， 这就是一种孤立的形式，不是吗？ 不是？ 当一位地方上的牧师想要成为大主教时， 这也是同样的模式， 或是一名共产主义者，又或是一个公社领袖想要
59:16 So, through these activities one is gradually enclosing oneself, building a wall around oneself. We are doing it. Do face this. Every day we are doing it. And one day suddenly this loneliness becomes real. One has carefully brought it about: my wife, my God, my country, my ideal, isolation. And my success, my ambition, I must be something better than what... you follow? All this is a form of bringing about isolation, which is the ultimate expression of loneliness. The sense of having no relationship with anybody, or with anything, even nature doesn't tell you, you have nothing with it. So, can one look at that loneliness, not escape from it, not try to cover it up, nor try to fill it with companionship, with knowledge, with a dozen things, but just to observe that loneliness? Observe – we went into that – without direction, without motive, without wanting to change, just to observe completely that sense of intense loneliness. Right? Are you doing it as we are talking? Ça va? 所以，通过这些行为，人在逐渐地封闭自我， 在自己周围修造了一堵围墙。 我们正在这么做。请务必面对这个事实。 每一天我们都在这么做。 然后，某一天，这孤独突然变成了现实。 我们精心营造了这一切： 我的妻子、我的上帝、我的国家、我的理想， 孤立。 以及，我的成功、我的雄心， 我必须成为强于那什么的人物，你明白吗？ 所有这一切都是一种带来孤立的形式， 也就是孤独的终极表现形式。 与任何人、任何事物都没有任何关系的感觉， 甚至和自然也没有交流，你和它毫无关系。 那么，你是否可以看着那份孤独， 而不逃离它， 不去试图掩盖它， 不用伴侣关系来填充它， 也不用知识、用一大堆东西来填补， 而仅仅去观察那份孤独？ 观察——这个我们探讨过了—— 而没有方向，没有动机，也没有改变的想法， 只是去完整地观察那份强烈的孤独感。 对吗？ 在我们讨论时，你是在这样做吗？ 是吗？
1:01:17 Q: Krishnaji, I don't think we do it as you talk. We listen to you and then think of putting it into practice. 问：克里希那吉，我不认为在你讲话时，我们会这样做。 我们聆听你所说的，之后再想着去实践它。
1:01:25 K: Oh no, we have been through all that. Don't put anything into practice, that's what we've always said, least of all what we are talking about. You can put into practice what other people say. Here, at least while you are in the tent please don't put anything what the speaker is saying into practice, then it is dead. 克：噢，不，我们已经讨论过这个了。 别去实践任何东西，那是我们一直在说的， 尤其对于我们正在讨论的事不要这么做。 你可以实践别人所说的东西。 然而，在这儿，至少当你还在帐篷里时， 请不要实践讲话者在说的任何东西， 实践会让它死去。
1:01:44 So we are saying, can you live with that loneliness, observe it without wanting to go beyond it, suppress it, run away from it, without giving it any direction, which means – listen to it carefully – which means thought has created that loneliness by your activities, and thought then says, I must escape from it. So can you look at it without any movement of thought? Without any movement of thought. Then you will see for yourself it doesn't exist at all. You have gone beyond it – not you, it doesn't exist. Then a totally different kind of thing comes about, which is you are alone. Alone is different from loneliness. Alone means, the word itself means all one. It doesn't mean all of you I am. Right? 所以我们问，你是否能与那份孤独共处， 观察它，不想去超越它， 不想去抑制它、逃离它，也不给予它任何的方向， 这意味着——听仔细了—— 这意味着，思想通过你的活动 制造出了那份孤独， 随后，思想说，我必须逃离它。 那么，你是否能观察它而没有任何思想活动？ 没有任何的思想活动。 随后，你自己便会看到那份孤独其实根本不存在。 你已经超越了它——不是你，而是它根本不存在。 然后，一种完全不同的事物出现了， 也就是，你是孑然独立的。 孑然独立是不同于孤独的。 孑然独立意味着，这个词本身的意思是“完全一个人”。 它并不意味着我孤立于你们所有人之外。 对吗？
1:03:04 Now he says, death and meditation, can you approach death without any single movement of thought? That is what it means. When one actually, physically, biologically dies that is what is going to happen. Are we clear? You may be lonely, you may be greedy, envious, etc., belonging to the right, left, centre, extreme right, extreme left, all that, but when death comes it says, don't argue with me, old boy, you are finished! 现在，他问，死亡和冥想， 你是否能探究死亡的问题 而没有任何一丝思想活动？ 那就是它的含义。 当一个人真正地从生理上、 生物学上死亡时，那就是将会发生的事情。 我们说清楚了吗？ 你可能是孤独的，可能是贪婪的、善妒的，等等， 隶属于右翼、左翼、中间派、极端右翼、极端左翼，诸如此类， 可是，当死亡来临时，它说，不要与我争辩，老家伙， 你完蛋了！
1:03:57 So can we come to it having finished all this? You understand? That means, having no fear, having no attachment. That is what death is going to tell you at the end. It says, my chap, you can't have your house, you can't carry your money with you, your bank accounts are closed, you are leaving your wife, your favourite chair, everything you are leaving behind. So can you do it now, leave your favourite chair? Now to do that, to leave no attachment of any kind, to a belief, to a dogma, to a conclusion, and leave your fears, your pleasures, your attachments now, then what is the relationship of that to meditation? Right? To leave, say for instance, to put away attachment without conflict. If you have a conflict then you cultivate detachment, which is the opposite. I wonder if you understand this? Detachment then leads to indifference, callousness. You are following this? So, being attached, not to become detached, callousness, indifference, brutality, violence, etc., but without effort to cut loose everything. That is, to loosen the threads of attachment without effort, that is part of meditation. Because the investigation of attachment shows that you are dependent on somebody, or on something. When you are dependent on something you become that. When one is attached to one's favourite chair, you are that favourite chair. So to enquire into it, without compulsion, without motive, is a form of meditation. Right? 因此，我们能结束所有那些东西然后去面对死亡吗？ 你理解吗？ 那意味着， 没有惧怕， 没有依恋。 那就是死亡到最后会告诉你的东西。 它说，我的老兄，你不能再拥有你的房子， 你不能将你的钱财带走， 你的银行账户已经关闭， 你将离开你的妻子，你最爱的那把椅子， 一切你都将弃之身后。 那么，你现在能这么做吗？离开你最爱的那把椅子？ 现在就去那样做，离开任何形式的依恋， 对于一种信仰、 一种教条、 一个结论的依恋， 并且现在就离开你的恐惧、你的欢愉、你的依恋， 那么，这与冥想间的关系又是什么呢？ 对吗？ 离开你的依恋，举例来说， 没有冲突地丢掉你的依恋。 如果你有了冲突，你便会去培养“放下”的态度， “放下”就是依恋的反面， 我想知道这点你是否明白了？ “放下”会导致冷漠， 麻木不仁。 你跟上了吗？ 因此，如果你是依恋的，不要试图去“放下”， 不要变得麻木不仁、冷漠、残忍、暴虐，等等， 而是要不费吹灰之力地摆脱一切事物的约束。 也就是说，毫不费力地解开“依恋”的捆绑， 那正是冥想的一部分。 因为，对于依恋的探究 显示出你在依靠着某人或某些事物。 当你依靠某物时，你会变成它。 当你依恋你所钟爱的椅子时， 你就是你钟爱的那把椅子。 因此，没有强迫、没有动机地去探询它 就是冥想的一种形式了。 对吗？
1:07:42 So, the understanding of death comes through meditation. Which is, death means ending of your pleasure, complete ending of your pleasure, sexual, religious, etc. And death doesn't argue with you, doesn't say, old boy, I'll give you another day, or a week. It says, look – it is there, at your door. So the investigation into attachment, fear and so on, is the movement of meditation, which is the enquiry into the whole structure of thought. They are all linked together, you understand? So when you are enquiring into attachment, you are attached because you are lonely, you are attached because you haven't solved this enormous feeling of guilt, loneliness, separation, wanting to be something, and being incapable of fulfilling what you want, therefore feeling frustration, bitterness, anger, hate, all that. To enquire into it without any motive, if you have a motive, to enquire why you have a motive. That motive is the response of your conditioning. Enquiring, you know, if you observe it will tell you everything. But we are so eager to read the book, the book of ourselves, we are so eager, we want to know everything very quickly. But if you just observe, the book, the thing will tell you instantly everything. And I really mean it. It will tell you everything about yourself. It will tell you, if you observe without direction, without motive, without fear and all the rest of it, the whole story of yourself instantly, not chapter by chapter, page by page, it shows everything, wholly. Do it. 因此，对于死亡的了解来自于冥想。 也就是，死亡意味着终结你的欢愉， 彻底地结束你的欢愉， 性爱上的、宗教上的，等等。 并且，死亡不会与你争辩，不会说， 老家伙，我再给你一天或者一周。 它会说，瞧——它就在这里，在你门前。 因此，对依恋、惧怕等等的探究 就是冥想的运动， 这也正是深入到整个思想结构的探询。 它们都是相互联系的，你理解了吗？ 所以，当你探究依恋时， 你充满了依恋，因为你是孤独的， 你满怀依恋是因为你还没有解决这份巨大的愧疚感、 孤独感、分离感，想要成为重要人物的雄心， 以及无法达成理想的无力感， 因此，你感受到了沮丧、苦涩、愤怒、仇恨， 那一切。 不带任何动机地深入探究它， 如果你怀揣着一种动机，去探询为什么你有动机。 那个动机便是你所受局限的反应。 探询，你知道， 如果你观察，它会告诉你一切。 可是，我们是如此迫不及待地去读这本书， 这本关于我们自己的书，我们是如此地急切， 我们想要非常快速地知道一切。 可是，如果你只是观察的话， 这本书、这事物会即刻告诉你一切。 我是说真的。 它会告诉你有关你自己的一切。 它会告诉你，如果你观察而没有方向、 没有任何动机、没有恐惧以及那一切， 即刻看到你自己的整个故事， 而不是一章一章地、一页一页地去看， 那么它便会完整地展示出一切。 这样去做吧。
1:10:48 Q: You've talked about death with regard to affections, released from affections. Before, we were talking about discontent that comes from a cause, and also discontent that has no cause. Could you elaborate a bit on the second form of discontent? 问：你谈到了关于“结束依恋之情”的死亡， 从依恋之情中解脱出来。 之前，我们谈到了源于某种起因的不满， 以及，没有起因的不满。 你能详细解释一下第二种不满吗？
1:11:15 K: Are you saying, if I understand it rightly – I can't hear it properly – are you saying: what is the relationship between discontent, and affection, and love. Is that it? 克：你是问，如果我理解正确了 ——我没能完全听清—— 你是否在问： 不满、依恋和爱之间的关系是什么？ 是那样的吗？
1:11:34 Q: My problem is, I understand how one becomes free of affections when these affections stem from causes, how freedom is born out of discontent that springs from causes, but when discontent has no cause, I don't inderstand where that leads or what that means. 问：我的问题是，我了解我们要如何摆脱依恋之情， 当这些依恋之情源自于一些起因时， 我也了解，有起因可循的不满是如何生出自由的， 可是，当不满没有起因时，我无法理解那会去向何处， 或者说，那意味着什么。
1:11:57 K: What is that, I don't quite follow. 克：那是什么意思？我不是十分理解。
1:11:59 Q: He doesn't understand what is discontent without a cause. 问：他不能理解什么是没有起因的不满。
1:12:06 K: The questioner says, I don't understand what is discontent without a goal. 克：提问者说，我不能理解 什么是没有一个目标的不满。
1:12:12 Q: A cause. 问：一个起因。
1:12:14 K: Without a cause. The cause is the goal. You see the truth of it? That was quick. The gentleman doesn't understand what is discontent without cause. What do we mean by a cause? You put a pin into my knee there is pain, that is the cause. Pin, pain, connects through nerves to the brain and the response is pain. There is the cause and the effect. Just follow this, two minutes. There is the cause and the effect. They are never separate. We have separated them. Do you see that? Cause, effect, the effect becomes the cause for the next effect. I wonder if you see that. Right? So it is a chain, it is one continuous chain, not cause something, and effect something else. Follow it closely, a little bit. I am coming to something, I just saw something. There is a cause and effect, the effect becomes the cause, and so it is a continuous chain in which action is always limited. So, the cause becomes the means, or is the means different from the cause? This requires a little bit... think it over with me, will you follow it? 克：没有一个起因。起因就是目标。 你认识到其中的真相了吗？ 很快就能明白。 这位先生不理解什么是没有起因的不满。 我们所说的起因意味着什么？ 你把一根针扎入我的膝盖，我会痛， 那就是起因。 针，疼痛， 经由神经系统连接到大脑，然后给出疼痛的反应。 有起因有结果。 请跟上这点，两分钟就够了。 有起因和结果。 它们是永不分开的。 但我们却分裂了它们。 你明白这点吗？ 起因，结果，这结果又成了下一个结果的起因。 我想知道你是否明白了这点。 不是吗？ 因此，这是一个连锁反应，这是一个持续性的连锁反应， 而不是原因是一个东西，而结果是另一个东西。 请稍稍跟紧点。 我在接近某种东西，我刚才看到了些东西。 有起因和结果，而结果又会变成起因， 这是一种持续性的连锁反应，在这个过程中，行动始终是受限制的。 因此，起因变成了手段， 还是说，手段和起因是不同的？ 这需要一点点的 和我一同思考，你能跟上吗？
1:14:39 One observes cause, effect. One smokes endlessly, the effect is cancer in your lung. So, the cause creates the effect, and the effect becomes the cause for the next effect. So it is a constant chain. So action is always within this field of enclosure. So the means of action is never free from the cause. Are you getting something? Oh yes, I see it. Right? One wants to create a beautiful society, a lovely society, therefore the cause is that, and to create that I must destroy lots of people because they are in the way. So the means doesn't matter, the end matters. The end matters, therefore the means doesn't matter. So the cause without means, the effect is to destroy you. Whereas there is only means, no cause and effect. I wonder if you see that. No, don't agree with me, I am not quite sure. There is only means, no cause and no effect. 我们观察起因，结果。 你不停地吸烟，结果就是你的肺部患癌。 因此，起因制造了结果， 然后结果会变成下一个结果的起因。 因此，这是一根持续不断的链条。 因此，行动永远处于这局限的圈地之中。 因此，行动的方式从未摆脱起因。 你了解到些什么了吗？ 噢，是的，我看到了。 对吗？ 我们想要创造一个美好的社会、美妙的社会， 因此，那就是起因， 而为了创造那样的社会，我必须毁灭许多人， 因为他们挡道了。 所以，方式是无关紧要的， 结局才是重要的。 结局是重要的，因此方式便无关紧要了。 所以，只有原因而不顾方式，其结果便是将你毁灭。 然而，如果只关心方式，那么便不会有起因和结果。 我想知道你是否看到了这点。 不，不要同意我所说的，我并不十分确定。 存在的只有方式，并没有起因和结果。
1:16:42 Q: What do you mean by means?

K: Wait, one moment, I'll find out. Means: the doing. Right? The doing. The very doing is the means. I have got it now, I can go. 		问：你所说的方式是指什么？

克：等一下，我会说清的。 方式，就是“正在做的事”。 对吗？正在做的事。 “正在做的事”就是方式。 我现在明白这个了，我可以继续了。
1:17:09 When there is cause the means is not important, the effect is important. So you are only concerned always with the cause and the effect, and never realising the effect becomes the cause. So, we are never concerned with the means, never. And the means is the doing, not to achieve an end, but the doing. 当有了起因，方式就会变得不重要， 结果才是重要的。 所以，你关心的永远都只是起因和结果， 而从未意识到结果会变成起因。 因此，我们从未关心过方式，从没有。 方式就是你所做的， 并不是去达成一个结果，而是所做的事本身。
1:18:00 Q: The action.

K: One moment. 		问：行动。

克：等等。
1:18:03 Q: The doing is the action? 问：正在做的事，也就是行动？
1:18:06 K: (Italian) The action. That means the doing is the means. The doing is without a cause and effect, therefore the means is all important. Yes sir, I have got it. I'll battle with you. 克：（意大利语）行动。 那意味着，“正在做的事”就是方式。 正在做的事，是没有起因和结果的， 所以，方式才是至关重要的。 是的，先生，我明白了。我会和你争一下的。
1:18:30 So the gentleman asks: I don't understand what you mean by discontent without cause. If there is a cause for discontent, then discontent is the effect, but it is not discontent at all. I wonder if you see that. If I have a cause to be angry, because you hit me or you said something to me, the cause, and the effect is always a result. I hit you back or I call you by a name, or I wait till I am stronger than you then... etc. So in that process there is no means. The means is the very fact of discontent, not the cause and the effect. I wonder if I am making myself clear? Have I explained this question to you, who asked this question? 那么，这位先生问： 我不理解你所指的没有起因的不满。 如果有一种导致不满的起因， 那么，不满即是结果， 可是这就根本不是不满了。 我想知道你是否认识到了这点。 如果我有一个愤怒的起因， 因为你打了我，或者你对我说了些什么，这便是起因， 然后，所产生的影响总会是一种结果。 我回击你，或者我辱骂你， 又或者我等待着，直到我比你强了之后等等。 因此在这个过程中并不存在方式。 方式就是不满这个事实本身， 而非起因和结果。 我想知道我是否表达清楚了？ 我是否已经给你，问这个问题的人， 解释清楚了？
1:19:51 Q: No, I still don't understood. 问：不，我仍然不理解。
1:19:53 K: I know, I have gone too far. 克：我知道，我讲得太过深入了。
1:19:56 Q: Discontent with a cause is not discontent. 问：有起因的不满不是不满。
1:19:59 K: I am saying when there is a cause for discontent it is not discontent. That's very simple. 克：我是指，当不满有一种起因时，这并不是不满。 这是非常简单的。
1:20:12 Q: Would you say that cause and effect are on the level of the ideals, and the means are on the level of time? 问：你是否认为，起因和结果存在于理想的层面上， 而方式存在于时间的层面上？
1:20:25 K: Look, what is action? Just look at it, please look at it for a minute. I must stop, what time is it? 克：你瞧，什么是行动？ 只是去看看这个问题，请观察它一会儿。 我必须停下了，现在几点了？
1:20:36 Q: Ten to twelve. 问：十二点差十分。
1:20:41 K: I must stop talking. 克：我必须停止讨论了。
1:20:44 K: What was I going to say?

Q: Action. 		克：我刚要说什么来着？

问：行动。
1:20:47 K: Action. If you are acting because you have a cause, that is, you have an idea, or a principle, or a conclusion from which you are acting, that acting is not action. Action, the meaning of the word action means doing, now. Not doing according to a principle. I wonder if you see. It is very simple. We have translated action as doing something according to a cause, a principle, an idea, a conclusion, or an ideal, a belief, a something. Either action based on the past or on the future, therefore it is not action; action means doing – active present. Verbally, in the verb, not having done, or will do, but doing. Therefore the doing is the means. Got it? All right, I must stop. 克：行动。 如果你在行动，是因为你有一个目标， 也就是说，你持有一种观念， 或者一种原则，又或一个结论，根据这些你在行动， 那样的行动并非行动。 行动，字面意思是当下在做的。 并不是依据某个原则。 我想知道你是否明白了。这是非常简单的。 我们已把行动诠释成依据一个原因、 一种原则、一个观念、一个结论 又或者一个理想、一个信仰或某个东西去做事。 行动不是依据于过往就是依据未来， 因此，这不是行动；行动意味着正在做——在活生生的当下。 就字面而言，动词的形式，不是完成时或将来时，而是现在进行时。 因此，正在做的就是方式。 了解了吗？ 好了，我必须停下了。
1:22:16 Sirs look, this is meant to be a dialogue and I am talking all the time. 先生们，请看，这本应是一场对话， 然而，却一直都是我在说话。
1:22:22 Q: What do you mean by dialogue? 问：你所说的对话是什么？
1:22:24 K: I have explained, madame, perhaps you were not here at the beginning. A dialogue means a conversation between two friends, between two people who are interested in the same subject seriously, want to find an answer, not quarrel over words, ideas, but two really good friends who say, let's talk about this. 克：我已经解释过了，女士。 或许刚开始的时候你没有在这儿。 一次对话意味着两个朋友间的一场交流， 两个对相同话题真正感兴趣的人之间的交流， 他们想要找到一个答案，而非争执于文字、想法， 而是两个非常要好的朋友，说“让我们来谈谈这个吧”。
1:22:56 K: Beg your pardon?

Q: In order for that to be possible, I think they should be sitting close together. The microphone, I feel, is in the way. 		克：请再说一遍？

问：为了让那变得可能， 我认为他们应该坐得更靠近些。 我感觉，麦克风挡路了。
1:23:13 K: If the microphone is not here I don't think you would hear. What is she saying? 克：如果没有麦克风，我觉得你会听不到。 她在说什么？
1:23:28 Q: (Italian) Perhaps she is saying, we are in a position of inferiority in the dialogue because we are not... 问：（意大利语）或许她是说， 在对话中我们处在一个劣势的位置，因为我们不是
1:23:38 K: (Italian) Andiamo. A domani! 克：（意大利语）我们走吧。明天见！