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SA77D4 - 事实,现实以及真相
公共讲座 4
萨能, 瑞士
1977年 7月 30日



0:23 Krishnamurti: What shall we talk over this morning? 克里希那穆提:今天早上我们应该探讨些什么呢?
0:31 Questioner: We had a very deep investigation into death and meditation yesterday, and the other day we went into awareness. So if we could go on, that is, is there an awareness of truth, whether that exists beyond the word and if it does, can this awareness happen here? 提问者:我们昨天已经深入探究了 死亡和冥想, 前几天,我们还探讨了觉知。 那么,我们是否可以继续探讨 是否存在一种对于真相的觉知? 那种真相的存在是否超越了文字? 以及,如果真是这样,这种觉知能在这里发生吗?
1:02 K: Yes. 克:好的。
1:06 Q: Could we talk about abreaction and the effect on personal growth, catharsis and the effect on personal growth. 问:我们能否讨论一下“精神疏泄”,及其对个人成长的影响, 以及“精神宣泄”及其对个人成长的影响。
1:21 K: I couldn't hear, sir. 克:我听不见,先生。
1:24 Q: Could we talk on abreaction and the effect on personal growth, on experiences such as 'the process' you experienced on August 20th 1922, and the development for personal growth. 问:我们能否讨论一下“精神疏泄”,及其对个人成长的影响, 比如你在1922年8月20日所经历的 “过程”, 以及,这对于个人成长的促进。
1:50 K: I am not quite clear about that question. 克:我对于那个问题不是很清楚。
1:55 Q: Abreaction. In essence it is the effect of 'the process' of what you experienced on August 20th 1922, and the effect of such experiences on personal development. 问:“精神疏泄”。 从本质上来说,就是 你在1922 年8月20日所经历的 ”过程“的影响, 以及,这种经历对于个人成长的影响。
2:28 K: Sorry. What language do you speak, sir? 克:抱歉。 先生,你的母语是什么?
2:34 Q: Italian.

K: Speak in Italian.
问:意大利语。

克:那用意大利语说。
2:38 Q: (Italian) The effect of abreaction on living in the past, and is it in accordance with the experience you had on August 20th 1922. 问:(意大利语)“精神疏泄”对于过往生活的影响, 以及,这是否 与你在1922年8月20日那天的经历一致呢?
3:06 K: Oh, zut! I've understood, yes. 克:噢,见鬼! 我已经理解了,好的。
3:30 Q: Is thought employed to realise this radical transformation, and can we know anything which is not in the field of thought, including this awareness? If we employ thought through investigation and through enquiry then is that thought, is that process going to promote this change, this dimension which we speak of in which there is no movement of thought? 问:思想是否被用来实现这种彻底的转变, 以及,我们是否能了解任何不在思想领域里的事物? 包括这种觉知。 如果我们利用思想去探查和探询, 那么思想,这个思想过程是否会推动这种改变, 这种我们所谈及的 其中没有思想运动的维度呢?
4:18 Q: Why has thought become such a deeply rooted habit? 问:为什么思想变成了一种如此根深蒂固的习性?
4:23 Q: No, that is not what I am asking.

Q: No, that's what I am asking.
问:不,那不是我问的问题。

问:没错,那是我的问题。
4:37 K: Would you make your question short? 克:你的问题能简洁点吗?
4:39 Q: OK. Is thought used, is thought employed to realise, to bring about, to comprehend this radical transformation? 问:好的,思想是否是用来 我们是否可以用思想来实现、来引发、 来了解这种根本的转变呢?
4:52 K: What? I am afraid I haven't understood. Would you speak louder? 克:什么? 恐怕我还是没能理解。 你可以说大声点吗?
5:01 Q: I don't know how to make it clearer. I am asking: if it is thought that does the investigation, that does the enquiring? 问:我不知道如何才能表达得更清楚。 我在问:是否是思想 在调查,在探询?
5:10 K: I see. Is it thought that enquires, is it thought that observes, is it thought that explores. 克:我明白了。 是否是思想在探询, 是否是思想在观察, 是否是思想在探索。
5:22 Q: Yes. And does the process of that bring about this transformation? 问:是的。并且,是否是思想的过程 促成了这场转变?
5:30 K: Ah. Does that process bring about change, transformation. Right. 克:啊。 是否是思想过程带来了改变、转变。好的。
5:35 Q: Thank you. 问:谢谢你。
5:40 Q: Sir, I am sorry to repeat the question again. The other day you were kind enough to explain to me but I have confused it. How can thought see its movement? 问:先生,我很抱歉,我要再重复一遍问题。 前些天,你曾非常耐心地向我解释, 可是,我却将其混淆了。 思想如何能看到它自身的运动呢?
5:56 K: How can thought see its own movement. Right. 克:思想如何能看到它自身的运动。 好的。
6:03 Q: Please, in the western tradition there has been a question that all philosophers and thinkers have written about and thought deeply about, and that is: what is man's place in nature. Now, with regard to what you have talked about, in the total awareness where there is love, silence and total space, what is nature, and what is man's place in nature? Thank you. 问:请问,在西方的传统中, 一直都有一个问题是所有哲学家和思想家 著书立说和深入思考的, 那就是:人在自然中的位置是什么? 而根据你所谈论的, 在全然的觉知中,才存在爱、 寂静以及整体的空间, 那么,什么是自然?人在自然中有何地位?谢谢你。
6:31 K: What is nature... I can't make it out. Would you repeat it slowly, don't make the question too long. 克:什么是自然 这个我说不出来。 你能慢慢地重复一遍问题吗? 别把问题弄得太冗长了。
6:45 Q: In that total awareness that you have spoken about where there is love, etc., in regard to that, what is nature, what is our perception of nature, what does nature become, and what is our place in that? 问:在你所论及的那种全然的觉知中 才存在爱等等, 就这而言,什么是自然?我们对自然的感知是什么? 自然会变成什么?我们在其中的位置又是什么?
7:01 K: In this total awareness, in which there is love and so on, what is the relationship between that awareness and nature? 克:在这全然的觉知中, 有爱的存在以及其他等等。 那么,觉知和自然之间的关系是什么?
7:14 Q: Yes.

K: All right.
问:是的。

克:好的。
7:17 Q: I have discovered something yesterday, and I would just like to know if you think it is OK. 问:昨天,我发现了一些东西, 我只想知道你是否认为那是对的。
7:24 K: Make it short, please. 克:请简洁地表达。
7:26 Q: I am lonely because I live with motivation. When I drop motivation I have love. But you can't have love when you still have motivation, so I won't be lonely anymore when I drop motivation. 问:我是孤独的,因为我带着动机生活。 当我摒弃了动机,我便拥有了爱。 然而,当你仍有动机时,你便无法拥有爱, 所以只要我摒弃了动机,我便不再孤独。
7:40 K: What? Sorry I haven't got it. 克:什么? 抱歉,我还没能理解。
7:47 Q: Shall I do it again slowly? 问:我需要再慢慢讲一遍吗?
7:49 K: Please, make it short. 克:请长话短说。
7:54 Q: I am lonely because I live with motivation. When I drop motivation I have love, because you can't have love when there is still motivation. So I can't be lonely when I drop motivation. Do you understand? 问:我是孤独的,因为我带着动机生活。 当我摒弃了动机,我便拥有了爱, 因为当动机仍然存在时,你是无法拥有爱的。 所以,当我摒弃了动机,我便不再孤独。 你理解了吗?
8:20 K: When I drop motivation, there is love and... 克:当我摒弃了动机,便有爱的存在并且
8:29 what? 什么?
8:31 Q: Well, I just discovered for myself if I drop all motivation I am left with love. So if I have only love I can't be lonely. And loneliness is having motivation. 问:哦,我只是自己发现了如果我摒弃了所有动机, 我就与爱同在了。 所以如果我拥有的仅仅是爱,我便不会孤独。 孤独之中就有动机。
8:46 K: I see. I think we'll go into that. Right. There have been so many questions. The first one was: in this awareness what is truth, why does thought have such an extraordinary, deep-rooted importance in our life, and the gentleman asked also – I have forgotten. May we take one question out of all this, and go into that one question perhaps which will answer all the other questions. Can we do that madame, can we do that sir? 克:我明白了。我想我们会探究那个问题的。好的。 已经有如此多的问题了。 第一个是: 在这觉知中,真相是什么? 为什么思想在我们的生活中具有如此非凡 且根深蒂固的重要性, 以及,这位先生也提问了 ——我忘了。 恕我们仅选取其中一个问题, 并深入讨论那一个问题, 或许,这将能解答其他的所有问题。 先生们,女士们,我们能这么做吗?
9:54 Q: I don't think you can do it. There are eight different questions, and it's impossible to orientate all these into one question. I can't see that you can do it. It is simpler to answer them, than to put eight questions into one. They're all different questions. 问:我认为你不能这么做。这里有八个不同的问题, 而且,将所有问题都引向同一个问题是不可能的。 我不认为你可以办到。 一个个地解答它们要比把八个问题都归为一个容易。 它们都是不同的问题。
10:21 Q: (In Italian) He said, it is very difficult to respond to such different questions. 问:(意大利语)他说:“这样去回答如此不同的问题 是非常困难的。”
10:36 K: Bien. I think if we can take one question you will see it. I think the gentleman who asked the first question, which was: what is the relationship of awareness and truth? I think if we could take that one question, though there are contradictory questions, personal, and that which we talked about the other day, so I think if we take this one question we will see we can get all the others in, however contradictory they are. May we try it? 克:好的。我认为,如果我们可以选一个问题来讨论,你就会明白。 我想这位先生问了第一个问题,他的问题是, 觉知与真相之间的关系是什么? 我认为如果我们可以选取那一个问题, 尽管有着一些相互矛盾的问题, 个人的问题,以及我们前几天谈到过的问题, 我认为如果我们选这一个问题来讨论, 我们便会发现我们可以把所有别的问题都纳入其中, 无论它们之间是多么的相互矛盾。 我们能试一试吗?
11:14 K: May we, sir?

Q: Yes.
克:我们可以吗,先生?

问:可以。
11:21 K: He asked a question, which was: what is the relationship between truth and awareness? Would you like to put that question in a different way? What is the relationship of actual facts and truth? Would that be right? 克:他问了一个问题,那就是: 真相和觉知之间的关系是什么? 你们想换个方式来表达这个问题吗? 实际的事实 与真相之间的关系是什么? 那样可以吗?
11:59 K: I am asking you.

Q: Yes, that would be right.
克:我在询问你们。

问:是的,那样是可以的。
12:04 K: What is the relationship of violence, which is an actual fact, to truth? What is the actual relationship to a recognised, well-known factor in oneself as envy, greed, fear, to truth? What is truth? We'll come to that. I daren't touch it for the moment. But we can go into this question by being aware of what reality is. Fact – facts, 'what is', reality, truth. 克:暴力 ——这是一种实际的事实—— 和真相之间的关系是什么? 实际的关系是什么 ——我们内心公认的、众所周知的因素, 例如艳羡、欲望、恐惧等,和真相之间的实际关系。 什么是真相?我们会讨论这个。 我暂时还不敢触碰这个问题。 可是,我们可以探究这个问题, 通过觉知什么是现实。 事实——事实,“现状”, 现实,真相。
13:07 What would we call facts, 'what is'? What would you say, or describe, or talk about 'what is', actually what is, not theoretical, not abstract, not an abstraction or a supposition. When we say fact, what is, what do we mean by those two words? Right, facts? The fact is that there is war. The fact is that human beings are violent. The fact is there are national divisions, political divisions, religious divisions, ideological divisions. Right? You and me division, the woman and the man division. And the fact is, where there is division there is conflict. The Jew, the Arab and so on and so on, the Muslim and the Hindu, and so on. So where there is division there is conflict. That is a fact. That is a law. Right? 我们称什么为事实、 “现状”? 你会如何认为, 或者如何描述、如何谈论“现状”, 真实的“现状”, 这并非理论性的, 并非抽象性的, 也不是一种抽象概念或一种假设。 当我们说事实、“现状”时, 我们所说的这两个词是什么意思? 对吧,事实? 事实就是有战争的存在。 事实就是人类是暴虐的。 事实就是存在着种族、 政治、宗教 以及意识形态的分裂。对吗? 你和我之间的分裂,女人和男人之间的分裂。 事实是,哪里有分裂,哪里就有冲突。 犹太人,阿拉伯人等等,等等。 穆斯林和印度教徒,等等。 因此哪里有分裂,哪里就有冲突。这就是一个事实。 这是一条定律。 对吗?
14:56 Now, what is reality then? Is fact different from reality? And is reality different from truth? Please, this needs a little bit of enquiry into this. The questioner asked also: in observation is there transformation, morally, if I understood that question rightly. Now we are going to observe together this problem, this question. Fact: what actually is going on, reality, and truth. We said facts, or what actually is – short, tall, broad, brown, white hair, pink and so on, black. Those are facts. The conclusions from those facts – like and dislike – they are reality as illusions. Reality – no, I must go slowly, I mustn't go quickly. So, let's go. 那么,什么是现实呢? 事实是不同于现实的吗? 现实是不同于真相的吗? 拜托,这需要深入一点的探索。 提问者同时问道: 在观察的过程中, 会有道德上的转变吗, 如果我正确地理解了那个问题的话。 现在,我们将一起观察这个难题,这个问题。 事实: 正在切实发生的事, 现实,以及真相。 我们说事实,或者说“实际的情况” ——矮,高,宽,棕色、白色的头发,粉红色等等,黑色。 那些便是事实。 源自于那些事实的结论 ——喜欢以及不喜欢—— 它们是作为幻象存在的现实。 现实?不,我必须慢慢探讨,我不能讨论得太快了。 那么我们继续。
16:37 Fact, what is, reality and truth. What is the relationship between these three? Is this clear? Let's move. Don't be impatient, please. 事实——即现状,现实以及真相。 什么是这三者间的关系? 这清楚了吗?让我们继续。 请耐心点。
16:58 Q: Is the fact that without words? 问:事实是不是不带言语的?
17:04 K: Is a fact without words. I make a gesture that is without words, but it is a fact. I look at you, friendly, or with antagonism. That's a fact, there is no word. That's one point. 克:是否事实是没有言语的。 我做了个手势, 其中没有言语,可它是一个事实。 我友好地或是敌对地注视着你。 那是一个没有言语的事实。 那是一点。
17:34 What is reality – let's come to the next – what is reality? The real, actual. Would you say everything that thought has created is reality? Thought has created this tent. It is a reality. Thought has created this microphone, it is a reality. Thought has created the various illusions, which is a reality. Because it is created, one lives with it. You are following? Whatever thought creates is a reality – the building, the things that thought has produced technologically: computers, televisions and so on. Everything that thought has created is a reality, including the illusions that thought has created. Nationality is an illusion. And God is an illusion, thought has created it. Right? But thought has not created nature, the tree, the things that are outside. But the chair, made out of the wood of a tree is a reality. Right? Thought has not created nature, but thought making a chair out of a tree is a reality. So thought has not created nature. One of the questions was: what is the relationship of man and nature. 什么是现实?——我们来看第二个—— 什么是现实? 真实的,实际的。 你是否认为,思想所造的一切都是现实? 思想造出了这个帐篷。 这是一个现实。 思想造出了这个麦克风,这是一个现实。 思想造出了各种各样的幻象, 这是一个现实。 因为我们与这被造出的东西生活在一起。 你跟上了吗? 思想所造的任何东西都是一种现实——建筑物, 思想在技术上造出的那些东西: 电脑,电视等等。 思想造出的一切都是一种现实, 包括思想制造出的幻象。 国籍就是一种幻象。 上帝也是思想造出的一种幻象。 对吗? 可是,思想并没有创造出自然, 树木,外在的那些事物。 但是,用一棵树的木头制成的椅子是一个现实。 对吗? 思想没有创造出自然, 可思想由一棵树制作出一把椅子,这是一种现实。 因此,思想没有创造出自然。 其中一个问题是: 什么是人与自然的关系。
20:10 So there are these things: facts, which thought has created also, I am and I am not, I must be, I will be, I have been, or I will evolve slowly, or that there is no evolution at all psychologically, and so on. The building, the instruments of war, the churches and the things that are in the churches, all the rituals, all the adorations of images made by the mind or by the hand, are still the product of thought. Right? And the illusions surrounding these churches, the gods within, the saviours within, are all created by thought, which are illusions. Is this clear? Are we all together in this? I think it is not very difficult. 那么,有着这些事物:事实, 这也是思想所创造的: “我是”以及“我不是”, “我必须”,“我将是”,“我曾是”, 或者,我将缓慢地进步, 又或者,根本就不存在心理上的进化,等等。 建筑物,战争的工具, 教堂以及教堂中的东西, 所有的仪式, 思想和手工制作出的受尊崇的所有形象, 都仍旧是思想的产物。 不是吗? 围绕着这些教堂的所有幻象, 里面的众神、救世主,都是思想创造出来的, 这些都是幻象。 这清楚了吗? 我们都明白这点了吗? 我认为这并不是非常难懂。
21:34 So what is the relationship then of reality to truth, or is there no relationship at all? Does all this interest you? 那么,什么是现实与真相的关系, 还是根本就不存在任何关系? 你对这一切感兴趣吗?
22:03 Q: Somebody asked the question: what is man's place in nature, and I would like to know what sort of work we should be doing. That's a very important thing, what is man's place in nature. 问:有人问过这个问题:人在自然中的位置是什么, 以及,我想知道我们应该做些什么。 人在自然中的位置是什么,这是一个非常重要的问题。
22:24 K: Would you make it short, we can't hear. 克:你能说得简洁一点吗?我们听不清。
22:35 Q: He asks, what kind of work should we be doing. 问:他问,我们应该做什么。
22:40 K: What kind of work or action should be doing. If we understand what kind of life we are, what we are, from self-knowledge, action takes place. We have divided action as though it was something totally different from ourselves. Right? We are investigating into what really is total action, – which we are coming to – what is total action in our daily life? Look, what shall I do – let me put it this way – what shall I do confronted with all this confusion, misery, suffering, uncertainty, what shall I do? The country is demanding one thing of me, society wanting me to do something else, the priest asks me something else. Amidst all this immense confusion, what is the right action? That is the question he is asking. What is the right action? Is there right action if I am caught in an illusion? I am in some kind of illusion, such as, I love my God. That is an illusion, because God – if you don't mind, I hope you will not think me blasphemous or absurd – God is created by thought. No? 克:应该做些什么或有什么样的行动。 如果我们了解我们实际的生活,了解我们真实的状况, 通过自我了解,行动便会产生。 我们已经将行动划分出去, 就好像它是完全不同于我们自身的事物。 对吗? 我们在深入探究什么是真正完整的行动, ——这是我们马上要探讨的—— 在我们的日常生活里什么是完整的行动? 瞧,我应该做什么——让我用这种方式来表述—— 我应该做什么,当我面对这一切混乱、 不幸、苦难、不确定性时,我应该做什么? 国家在要求我做这件事, 社会想要我去做另外一些事, 牧师则让我去做别的一些事。 在这巨大的混乱之中, 什么是正确的行动? 那就是他提出的问题。 什么才是正确的行动? 如果我受困于一个幻象之中,那么正确的行动还是否存在? 我身处于某种幻象之中,例如,我爱我的上帝。 那是一种幻象,因为,上帝——如果你们不介意的话, 我希望你们不会认为我在亵渎神明或者无理取闹—— 上帝由思想所造。 不是?
24:54 Q: Thought is created by what? 问:思想是被什么创造出来的?
25:02 K: I am afraid. I am afraid of the future, there is nobody upon whom I can depend, there is somebody who must protect me, the father figure. And I want to feel consoled by the image which I have created, and I say that's God. Thought has created it. Sorry, I hope you don't mind. Which doesn't mean I am an atheist, on the contrary. That is not God, something else is God. So, I am caught in this illusion that somebody is going to look after me, some superior entity, an outside agency, a god, a guru, or whatever it is, the State. Now in that illusion – which is an illusion – what is right action? Right action can only take place when I have no illusion. When I have no illusion that I am much more superior than anybody else. So action can only take place when the mind is totally free from all illusion. That's obvious. If I am neurotic I can't act rightly, that's obvious. If I am confused I can't act rightly, If I am caught in a particular form of prejudice with its conclusions, I can't act rightly. So there must be freedom from all this to act rightly in daily life, whether it's politics, religion, my wife, children, everything. As long as there is an illusion of any kind, action, total action is not possible. That's actually what we are examining: fact, thought creating the microphone which is a reality, it is not an illusion, the building, the tent is not an illusion, the chair is not an illusion, and nature – the tree, the mountains, the skies, the moon, the everlasting stars and the beauty of stars, that is not created by thought. But thought has created illusions which are realities. You follow? 克:假设我很恐惧。 我恐惧未来, 我没有人可以依靠, 可是,必须要有人来保护我, 父亲那般的。 我想通过我造出的形象来感受到慰藉, 于是,我说那就是上帝。 是思想创造出了它。 抱歉,我希望你们不要介意。 这并不意味着我是一个无神论者,恰恰相反。 那并不是上帝,某种别的事物才是上帝。 因此,我困在这个幻象之中: 有人会来照顾我, 某个高级的存在体,一个外在的机构、神、古鲁, 政府,又或是别的什么。 现在,在那幻象之中——这就是一种幻象—— 什么是正确的行动? 正确的行动只有在我没有幻象时才会发生。 当我没有幻象时, 没有我比别的任何人都要更高级的幻象时。 所以行动只会发生在 头脑摆脱了一切幻象时。 那是显而易见的。 如果我很神经质,我就无法正确地行动, 那是显然的。 如果我是混乱的,那么我就无法正确地行动, 如果我受困于某种特定的偏见 以及它的结论,我就无法有正确的行动。 因此,必须要有摆脱这一切的自由, 在日常生活里才会有正确的行动, 无论是政治、宗教,我的妻子、孩子,所有方面。 只要存在任何一种幻象, 行动,全然的行动便是不可能的。 那实际上正是我们正在研究的:事实, 思想创造出了麦克风, 这是一个现实,不是一种幻象, 建筑物、帐篷不是一种幻象, 椅子的存在不是一个幻象, 还有自然 ——树木、山川、蓝天、明月, 永恒的繁星以及星辰的美丽, 那都不是思想的产物。 可是,思想制造了那些成为了现实的幻象。 你明白吗?
28:09 So by investigating very carefully, as we are doing now, what is illusion, and what is reality? If thought has created the tent, and thought also creates various forms of illusion, so both are realities. But there must be recognition, or perception, or awareness, or observation that the church – the building – is not an illusion, but what is contained within the church, or in the mosque, or in the temple, is the illusion created by man. This is all very simple. Once you see this it becomes extraordinarily clear. Are we meeting each other? Are we? 因此,通过非常细致的探究,正如我们现在所做的, 什么是幻象? 以及什么是现实? 如果思想创造了帐篷, 并且,思想同样创造了各种各样的幻象, 那么,两者皆是现实。 可是,必须要识别,或洞悉,或觉知, 又或观察到:教堂——建筑物——并不是幻象, 然而,蕴含在教堂之中的, 或在清真寺之中的,又或在寺庙之中的东西, 才是人所制造出来的幻象。 这些都是非常简单的。 一旦你看到了这一点,一切便会变得豁然开朗。 我们懂得了对方吗? 有吗?
29:23 So to find out what truth is, to let it happen, like spring, like a flower, like the waters flowing, let it happen, that can only come about when the mind has put everything in order. 因此,为了找出真相是什么,为了让其发生, 如同春天的到来,如同一朵鲜花的绽放, 如同溪水的流淌般,让其发生, 那仅发生于 心灵将一切安置有序时。
29:49 Q: How do you define the word truth? 问:你如何定义真相这个字眼?
29:54 K: I don't define truth. Sir, you haven't even listened to what I am saying. 克:我不会定义真相。 先生,你甚至没有在听我说。
30:01 Q: I have. 问:我听了。
30:03 K: I am sorry, you are not, when you are asking a question, what is truth, describe truth, I haven't come to it yet. You are asking something which I am not even enquiring yet. We are enquiring into facts, into reality – reality, as we said, everything that thought has created including the illusions. But thought has not created the mountain, the rivers, the trees, nature. So what is the relationship of man to nature? Which was one of the questions. If man lives within the illusion which he has created, he has no relationship. Right? But man without illusion, and seeing what thought has created, and thought has not created nature, and therefore puts thought in its right place, then he has a relationship to nature. I wonder if you get this. 克:我很抱歉,你没有,当你在问这个问题时, 什么是真相,描述真相,这是我还没有探讨的问题。 你在询问我还没探讨的事。 我们在探讨事实、现实 ——现实,如我们所说, 思想所造的一切 包括幻象。 可是思想并没有创造出山川、河流、树木, 自然。 那么,人与自然的关系是什么? 这是其中一个问题。 如果人生活在他自己制造的幻象中, 那么,他与之是没有关系的。 对吗? 然而,不抱幻象的人, 他看到了思想所创造的一切 也看到了思想并没有创造出自然, 因此,他会把思想放置在正确的位置上, 于是,他便与自然有了关系。 我想知道这点你们是否明白了。
31:36 Q: To give up those illusions is a very painful experience. 问:放弃这些幻象是一种非常痛苦的经历。
31:50 K: Ah, to give up illusions is a very painful process. We are not giving up anything. There is no sacrifice, there is no, I must give up this in order to get that, but to observe this. To observe – please, this is very important, if you would just follow this – to observe what thought has created, and what thought has not created. To observe the illusion – to observe, not say it is right or wrong, I must give it up – to see that thought has created illusion as well as the building. The building is necessary, illusions are not necessary. To see that, to observe it. There is no fear, it is a fact. So when you observe the fact there is no fear. I wonder if you see it. Wait, have you understood what I said just now? 克:噢,舍弃幻象是一个非常痛苦的过程。 我们没有在舍弃任何东西。 并没有任何牺牲, 也不存在说,我必须放弃这个以便得到那个, 而是去观察这点。 去观察 ——拜托,这非常重要,如果你能明白这些—— 观察思想创造出了什么, 以及思想没有创造出什么。 去观察幻象 ——去观察,不说它是对是错,我必须舍弃它—— 而是看到是思想创造出了幻象和建筑物。 建筑物是必要的,幻象是不必要的。 看到它,观察它。 不存在恐惧,这是一个事实。 所以,当你观察事实时,惧怕是不存在的。 我想知道这点你们是否看到了。 等等,你们理解我刚刚所说的了吗?
33:11 Q: So far, yes. What I don't see is what does the observing. Is thought observing the illusions that it has created? 问:到目前为止,是的。我没看到的是,是什么进行的观察? 是思想在观察它自己所造的幻象吗?
33:20 K: No. So we have to discover, we have to find out what it is to observe. Right? Train coming. We are now going to enquire together into: what does it mean to observe. I can observe you with thought. Right? Thought can observe you, say yes, he is an Irish man, he is a German, long hair, short hair, like and dislike. And being conditioned – I don't like Irishmen, or I love Irishmen and not the Englishman and so on. Now, is that observation? It is one form of observation. A very limited form of observation. But if I want to observe there must be no movement of thought. I wonder if you see that. I want to observe you, just look at you. But if I am prejudiced, I can't look, my prejudice is looking. So, is there an observation of my prejudice, not that I observe my prejudice, because prejudice is the 'I'. I wonder if you see that. So, is there an awareness of prejudice, saying yes, I am prejudiced? That is an awareness of your prejudice. 克:不。所以我们必须去探索, 我们必须要找出,观察是什么。 对吗? 火车来了。 我们现在要一起探究: 观察意味着什么。 我可以用思想来观察你。 对吗? 思想可以观察你, 说:是的,他是个爱尔兰人,他是个德国人, 长头发,短头发,喜欢或是讨厌。 由于受到了局限 ——我不喜欢爱尔兰人, 或者我喜欢爱尔兰人,但不喜欢英国人等等。 那么,那是观察吗? 这是一种形式的观察。 一种非常局限的观察形式。 可是,如果我想要观察, 那就必须没有思想的活动。 我想知道,你是否看到了这个。 我想要观察你, 只是看着你。 可是,如果我怀有偏见, 我便无法观察,是我的偏见正在观察。 那么,有没有一种对我的偏见的观察, 而不是我观察我的偏见, 因为,偏见就是“我”。 我想知道这点你是否明白了。 那么,是否有一种对于偏见的觉知, 说“是的,我是抱有偏见的”? 那是一种对于你所持偏见的觉知。
35:50 So there is an observation without thought, without the movement of thought with its prejudices, with its like and dislike. In this context there is another problem, which is: in observation there is a certain sensitivity. If you observe very closely without any prejudice the sensory activity becomes much more acute and therefore there is more sensitivity. Now the question is, if I may go into it a little bit, when you are sensitive do you have more pain, more suffering? Go on, answer it. I am asking a question, which is, when there is sensitivity, not that you become sensitive – see the difference, please. I said through observation, without prejudice and so on, there is the sharpening of all the senses, therefore there is greater sensitivity to smell, to taste, seeing the trees, the mountains, the rivers, the faces. And being sensitive acutely – when there is sensitivity is the suffering much greater? Or when I am sensitive then everything affects me, either greater pleasure or greater suffering. I wonder if you see the difference? 所以有一种没有思想的观察, 没有思想的活动 以及思想的偏见和喜恶。 在这种情况下,还有另一个问题,那就是: 在观察的过程中,有某种敏感性。 如果你非常密切地、没有任何偏见地观察, 感官的活动就会变得更加灵敏, 因此会有更高的敏感度。 现在,问题是,如果我能再深入一点, 当你很敏感时,你是否会有更多的痛苦, 更多的苦难? 继续,回答它。 我在问一个问题, 也就是,当你很敏感时, 不是你“变得”敏感了 ——请认清其中的区别。 我说过,通过不带偏见的观察等等, 所有的感官都会更加灵敏, 因此敏感度会加强, 包括嗅觉、味觉,看见树木、 山川、河流、脸庞。 而具备灵敏的感知 ——当你敏感时,是否所受的苦难会更大呢? 或者,当我很敏感时, 一切事物都会影响我, 无论是巨大的快乐还是巨大的痛苦。 我想知道,你们是否明白其中的区别?
38:13 So we are saying now, to observe the reality. Reality is everything that thought has created, including the various neurotic activities, neurotic behaviour, neurotic assumptions and illusions. Those are all creations of thought – to observe it, not thought observes it. Are we getting somewhere, am I meeting you? 那么,我们现在谈的是观察现实。 现实是思想所创造出的一切, 包括各种各样神经质的活动, 神经质的行为,神经质的假设和幻想。 那些都是思想的产物 ——去观察它而不是让思想观察它。 我们的探讨抵达某处了吗?我们的理解交汇了吗?
38:54 Q: No.

K: No?

Q: Not at all.
问:没有。

克:没有?

问:一点也没有。
38:59 K: Sir, can you look at this tent without thought? Thought being: naming it as tent, seeing the structure, how the arch, the cross bars, without using the word, without thought saying, it is a tent, just to observe? Isn't that possible? 克:先生,你是否能不带思想地观察这个帐篷? 思想就是:把它命名为帐篷。 能不能看它的结构, 拱门和横梁是怎样的, 不使用文字, 没有思想在说,这是一个帐篷, 而只是去观察?那难道不可能吗?
39:36 Q: Is that a kind of hypnotism? 问:那是一种催眠术吗?
39:41 K: Oh, for God's sake. Just to observe, sir, it is not hypnotism. You know what that word means? I don't know, either we are talking English, or not. 克:噢,看在上帝的份上。 只是观察,先生,这不是催眠术。 你知道那个词是什么意思吗? 我不知道,我们是不是在说英语。
40:12 K: What, sir? 克:什么,先生?
40:13 Q: There is observing, or no observing at all. When we observe the tent, the idea, through the thought, we are not observing the tent. 问:要么有观察发生,要么根本就没有任何观察。 当我们通过思想来观察帐篷这个概念时, 我们并没有在观察帐篷。
40:23 K: Of course not. When you are observing a word called 'tent' you are not actually observing the tent. You are only observing the word. I wonder if you see that. 克:当然没有。 当你在观察一个叫做“帐篷”的词时, 事实上你没有在观察帐篷。 你只是在观察那个词。 我想知道这点你是否明白了。
40:39 Q: Well, the eyes are functioning, aren't they? 问:可是,眼睛是在运作的,不是吗?
40:44 K: Sir, look at yourself. 克:先生,观察你自己。
40:49 Q: It is not a personal thing. The talks that you are having, it's like reading the speedometer on the car when you're driving, it doesn't involve any prejudice. But when it concerns human beings, relationships between people – say I have an idea or an impression that you are being prejudice towards me – that is much more complicated than just looking at the tent. 问:这不是一件个人的事情。 你正在进行的谈话, 就好像你一边在开车,一边看时速表, 这不包括任何偏见。 可是,当这关系到人类, 人与人之间的关系 ——好比说,我有一个观念或是一种印象, 你对我抱有偏见—— 那要比只是观察帐篷复杂多了。
41:27 K: We have said that before. 克:我们之前已经探讨过那个了。
41:29 Q: It involves relationship, reactions on different levels that are going on all the time. And I see that is going on in your being as it is going on in my being. 问:这涉及到关系, 不同层面上的反应一直进行着。 并且,我看到,这一直都在你身上进行着, 正如在我的存在中进行着一样。
41:42 K: We said it is easy to observe a tent, but it is much more complex to observe another human being. We have been into that very, very carefully in the talks and the discussions, I won't go into it again. Yes? 克:我们说过,观察一个帐篷很容易, 可是,去观察另一个人要复杂得多。 我们已经在谈话和讨论中非常非常仔细地探究了这个, 我不会再讲这个话题了。 好吗?
42:05 Q: Observation without memory is completely different from observation with memory. 问:没有记忆的观察 与有记忆的观察是完全不同的。
42:16 K: Sir, this becomes so impossible, each man interprets it in his own way. Just find out for yourself whether you can observe another human being, your wife, your husband, or your girl, or that man who is speaking, can you observe that person without any image? That's all. Look, if you are married, or if you have a girlfriend, or a boyfriend, you have created an image about him or her, haven't you? That is a fact, isn't it? Fact. The fact which is the product of thought, the image. Right? Oh lord, come on. 克:先生,这就变得无法探讨了,因为每个人都用自己的方式去解读。 自己去搞清楚你是否可以观察另一个人, 你的妻子、你的丈夫、你的女朋友,又或者正在说话的那个人。 你能否不抱任何形象地去观察那个人? 如此而已。 瞧,如果你已婚, 或者,如果你有个女朋友,或者男朋友, 你创造了一个有关他或者她的形象,不是吗? 那是一个事实,不是吗? 事实。 事实是这个形象是思想的产物。 对吗? 噢,上帝,拜托。
43:09 Look, I am married, or I have a girl, and through various activities, interrelationships, she has created an image about me, and I have created an image about her. This is an absolute fact. So our relationships are between these two images. These images, or pictures or ideas, or our conclusions, are the product of thought. So can there be a relationship without images? I am asking. 瞧,我结婚了,或者我有个女朋友, 并且,通过各种各样的活动、相互关系, 她创造了一个关于我的形象, 同时,我也创造出了一个关于她的形象。 这是一个绝对的事实。 因此,我们的关系是这两个形象之间的关系。 这些形象,或是图像、想法,又或是我们的结论, 都是思想的产物。 那么,能否有一种没有形象设定的关系? 我在询问。
44:02 Q: Does that mean that you can be sensitive to me without being prejudiced? 问:那是否意味着,你可以 不带偏见地感知我?
44:08 K: You haven't understood what I have said. 克:你还没有理解我所说的。
44:11 Q: That is exactly what you are asking. 问:这恰恰是你正在问的。
44:14 K: No, I am not. 克:不,这不是。
44:16 Q: You are talking about observing without prejudice. 问:你在谈论不带偏见的观察。
44:23 K: No sir, would you listen first. 克:不,先生,你能先聆听吗?
44:26 Q: I am asking, are you able to do it? 问:我在问,你是否能那样做?
44:40 K: So I am asking, if we have an image about another, that image is created by thought, that image is a reality created by thought, and relationship then is between two thoughts, two images, two pictures, two ideas, two conclusions. So we are asking: is that relationship at all? Or relationship exists only when there is no image. Right? Is that possible? My wife calls me a fool, and that is immediately registered in the brain, the picture is formed, and there is antagonism, or anger, or irritation. She may be telling the truth, or she may not be telling the truth. But there is an image formed. Now, is it possible to let the machinery of making the images end? 克:那么,我在问,如果我们对别人抱有形象, 那形象由思想所造, 那形象是思想所造的一种现实, 那么,关系就是两种思想、 两种形象、两种图像、两种观念、两种结论之间的关系。 因此,我们问:那究竟还是关系吗? 还是,关系只有在没有形象时才存在。 对吗? 那是可能的吗? 我的妻子称我傻子, 然后那立即被大脑记录下来, 一个画面形成了,于是有了敌意、 愤怒或者气恼。 她说的也许是实话,也许不是。 可是,一个形象形成了。 那么,是否可能 让制造形象的机制终止呢?
46:07 Q: The answer is yes. Because when you observe without thought and without image, then you have the truth. This is what is truth, to observe without image and without thought. 问:答案是可以的。 因为,当你不带思想、不持形象地观察时, 你便会拥有真相。 这就是真相的本质, 不设定形象、不带思想地观察。
46:26 K: Now is that a reality, a fact, or a supposition? Any supposition of what is not, is an illusion. 克:那么,那是一个现实、一个事实,还是一个假设? 任何对于“非事实”的假设都是一种幻想。
46:49 Q: It seems to me, without the thought process there is no perception whatsoever. 问:对我而言,没有思想的过程, 便没有了任何的洞察。
46:54 K: Try it. I say there is. What shall we do? I happen to be sitting on the platform, and you are sitting down there. Therefore people will listen to me, people won't listen to you. But we are saying, have you tried to look at something without thought? Find out, go into it. 克:试一试。我认为会有。我们应该做什么? 我碰巧坐在讲台上, 而你们坐在下面。 因此,人们会听我讲,而非听你讲。 但是,我们问, 你是否尝试过不带思想地观察某物? 去弄清楚,探究一下。
47:32 So what we are saying now is – again let's repeat – thought, which is experience, knowledge, stored up in the brain as memory, and the response of memory is thought, which is a material process. A material process. So, whatever thought has created is reality, the image between man and woman, the image I have about the tent, the word that creates the meaning, and is there a meaning without the word. Go into it all. And as nature is not created by thought, then what is the relationship of man who is full of thought, full of his images, his conclusions, his fears, what is the relationship between reality and that which is not created by thought? None at all, obviously. I may talk about nature, I may talk about the beauty of the mountains and the rivers, etc., but if one is enclosed within oneself, with one's problems, with one's ideas, with one's conclusions, illusions, and all that, there is no relationship at all. 因此,我们现在说的是 ——让我们再一次重申—— 思想,也就是经历、知识, 以记忆的形式囤积在大脑里, 而对于记忆的回应便是思想, 这是一个物质过程。 一个物质化的过程。 因此,思想所造的任何东西都是现实, 男人与女人之间所持的形象, 我对帐篷所持的形象, 创造出意义的文字, 那么,是否存在一种不着文字的意义? 深入探究这一切。 因为,自然并不是思想所造, 那么,一个充满了思想、 形象、结论和恐惧的人,他和自然的关系是什么? 现实与 那些并非源自思想的事物之间的关系又是什么? 一点关系也没有,显然的。 我可能谈论自然, 我可能谈论山川以及河流的美丽,等等, 可是,如果人封闭自己, 封闭在他的问题、他的观念、 他的结论、幻想,以及那一切之中, 那么,就根本没有任何关系存在。
49:22 Q: Thought is the product of what? Is thought a product of nature? I think it's an important question. 问:思想是什么的产物? 思想是自然的一种产物吗? 我认为,这是一个重要的问题。
49:49 K: Are you asking, how does thought arise? Are you asking, how does thought arise? 克:你是在问,思想是如何出现的吗? 你是在问,思想是如何出现的吗?
50:01 Q: Yes. 问:是的。
50:02 K: I will show it to you. If I may, if you will listen kindly, I will show it to you. I say to you, or to somebody, you are a fool. Now what is your reaction? You have an image about yourself that you are not a fool and you get annoyed. Right? So experience of various kinds is registered in the brain, which is knowledge, and that knowledge with its memory is thought. The origin of thought is from the very beginning of time. Right? Every incident, every experience, every pain, physical or biological, as well as psychological is registered in the brain, and that becomes a memory, and from that memory you act. So thought began with the origin of man. When is the origin of man? The scientists say twenty-five million years and so on and on. If you want to investigate into that, go into it. 克:我会向你说明的。 如果我可以,如果你愿意耐心聆听, 我会向你说明。 我对你说,或对某人说,你是一个傻瓜。 那么你的反应是什么? 你有一个关于自己的形象:你不是一个傻瓜, 然后,你变得恼怒。 对吗? 因此,各种各样的经历 会被大脑记录下来, 这就是知识, 并且,那知识伙同它的记忆便成了思想。 思想起源于时间伊始。 对吗? 每个事件,每段经历, 每次伤痛,身体上的或是生理上的, 以及心理上的,都被大脑记录下来, 然后变成了记忆,然后你根据这份记忆行动。 因此,思想开始于人类的起源。 人类起源于什么时候? 科学家们说, 两千五百万年前等等,等等。 如果你想探究那个,就去探究吧。
51:49 Q: Man is part of nature. 问:人类是自然的一部分。
51:51 K: Man is part of nature. Are you? Biologically you may be, but are you part of nature? Go on, answer it yourself, are you? Nature is all that: the rivers, the trees, the mountains, the birds, the endless seas, and so on. Are you all that? Or are you a Catholic, Protestant, Communist, Socialist? 克:人类是自然的一部分。你是吗? 生理上来说,你可能是, 可你是自然的一部分吗? 继续,你自己来回答它,你是吗? 自然就是那一切: 河流,树木,山川,群鸟, 绵延无尽的大海,等等。 你是那一切吗? 还是说,你是一个天主教徒、新教徒、共产主义者、社会主义者?
52:39 So, you are not going forward with this. Now let us ask: we know what thought is, we know what thought has done, the most extraordinary things technologically, surgically, medicine, extraordinary things. And thought has also created lots of illusions, which we all know, which we don't have to go into. All that is reality. Right? Is that clear? Then what is the relationship of reality to truth? When you ask that question it signifies that there is a truth. Right? Please listen carefully. We know now and have very clearly established between ourselves what reality is sorrow, pain, insult, neurotic behaviour, all that is created by thought. So whatever thought creates is reality. Why doesn't man stay there? You understand my question? He is always probing. He says, I acknowledge this, this is fairly clear, but there must be something more. Are you following this? So thought begins to investigate. Is this clear or not? Thought then, whatever it creates, is a reality. You understand this? One sees very clearly what is reality. Thought says yes, I am very clear about that. But thought also says, that is not enough, there must be something much more. So either it projects a god, an eternity, a timeless state, but it is still the product of thought. Right? So it is still reality. I wonder if you see this. Do we see this a little bit, may we go on? It is only when thought realises its own limitation, then it won't investigate into that, if there is or if there is not. This is logic isn't it, fairly clear, no? Come on, sirs. We said whatever thought creates is reality. When thought investigates into what it wants, hoping something greater, it is still reality. So it is always moving in its own limitation, in its own area – it may extend it, it may contract it, it may say, well I am the universe, I am the cosmos, I am God, but it is still thought. Right? So thought cannot investigate into that, if there is that. 因此,你并没有与自然同行。 现在,让我们来问问: 我们知道思想是什么,我们知道思想做了什么, 它做了最非凡的事, 从科技上、外科手术上、医药上来说,都很非凡的事。 同时,思想也制造了大量的幻象, 这是众所周知的,我们不需要再探讨。 所有那一切都是现实。 不是吗? 这点清楚了吗? 那么,什么是现实与真相间的关系? 当你提出这个问题时, 这意味着有一种真相存在。 对吗? 请仔细听。 我们现在知道了,我们之间也非常明确地定义了 现实是什么, 悲伤,痛苦, 侮辱,神经质的行为, 所有的那些都是思想所造。 因此,思想所造的任何东西都是现实。 为什么人不停留在这里? 你理解我的问题吗? 人总是在探索。 他说,我承认这个,这是非常清楚的, 可是,必定还有另外的东西。 你能理解这点吗? 因此,思想开始探究。 这点是否清楚了? 那么,无论思想创造了什么,它都是一种现实。 你理解这个了吗? 我们非常清晰地看到了什么是现实。 思想说,是的,我对那点非常清楚。 可是,思想还说,那是不够的, 必定存在另外的东西。 因此它要么投射出一个神, 要么是一种永恒,一种超越时间的状态, 可是,这都仍然是思想的产物。 对吗? 因此,这仍是现实。 我想知道你是否明白了这点。 我们明白一点了吗, 我们能继续吗? 只有当思想意识到它自身的局限时, 它才不会去探究那个, 是否存在另外的东西。 这是符合逻辑的,不是吗,非常清楚,不是吗? 拜托,先生们。 我们说过思想所造的任何事物都是现实。 当思想探究它想要什么时, 它期待着更伟大的事物,这仍旧是现实。 因此,它总是在它自身的局限中、 在它自己的领域中活动 ——它可能会扩展这个领域,也可能会使其缩小, 它可能会说,我就是世界,我就是宇宙,我就是上帝, 可是那仍然是思想。 不是吗? 因此,思想无法探究“那个东西”, 如果“那个东西”存在的话。
57:42 Q: That is the only instrument we have. 问:那是我们唯一拥有的工具。
57:47 K: That's the only instrument we have. Our Italian friend says, that's the only instrument we have. But if that instrument says, I cannot penetrate into something I don't know, it stops. Wait a minute, see the fact of this. It can create, saying, I know there is something, but it is still within the area of thought. I wonder if you see this simple thing. No? So thought, however sharp, however intelligent, however erudite, learned, experienced, it is still thought, a reality, as the building, as the microphone, and so on. So thought being the past, the outcome of the past, is limited by time. Right? 克:那是我们唯一拥有的工具。 我们的意大利朋友说,那是我们唯一拥有的工具。 然而,如果那工具 说,我无法洞悉我不了解的事物,它便会停下来。 等一等,看看这其中的事实。 它能够臆造,说,我知道存在某种东西, 可是,这些依然在思想的领域中。 我想知道你是否看到了这件简单的事。没有? 那么,无论思想多么敏锐、 多么聪慧、多么渊博、 多么有学问、富有经验, 它仍旧是思想,是现实, 就像建筑物、麦克风一样,等等。 而且,思想是过往, 是过往的产物, 受时间的限制。 对吗?
59:13 Q: You have said that the building is necessary, and thus limited yourself. You have said, that which is in the building is illusion, is not necessary. 问:你曾说过,建筑物是必要的, 从而限制了你自己。 你曾说过,建筑物里的东西是幻象, 都是不必要的。
59:26 K: I did not say that, sir. 克:我没那样说过,先生。
59:29 Q: The fact is that every building contains something, and that which the building contains, is illusion. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have the dangers of technology and still say that technology is necessary. 问:事实是每一座建筑都蕴含着某些事物, 而那里所蕴含的都是些幻象。 你无法在享用蛋糕的同时还能拥有它。 你无法在遭受科技的危害时 还仍旧说科技是必要的。
59:56 K: I said, sir, you see, I don't want to go back to this, we have already explained it ten times. So if you don't mind, I won't go back into it. 克:我说过,先生, 你瞧,我不想回到这个话题上, 我们已经解释过十多次了。 因此,如果你不介意,我不会回到这个问题。
1:00:14 See what thought does. Thought recognises itself as a movement in time. That is, thought being the outcome of the past knowledge, knowledge is always the past, so it is time-bound, so it is limited, so it is fragmentary. Now, having been time-bound it says, there must be something timeless, because it wants that state. Because it says, this is too limited. Right? So thought, which is the movement of time, tries to investigate into something which is timeless. Therefore that is impossible. 看看思想做了什么。 思想认识到自己是一种时间之中的活动。 也就是说,思想是过往知识的产物, 知识总是过去的, 因此,它是受时间限制的, 它是受限的, 它是支离破碎的。 那么,既然受时间限制, 思想说,必定存在某种不受时间限制的事物, 因为,它想要那样的状态。 因为思想说,这太受限制了。 对吗? 所以,思想——也就是时间的运动—— 试图探查某种不受时间限制的东西。 因此那是不可能的。
1:01:20 Q: (Italian) If thought is not the instrument to recognize this, then what instrument is? 问:(意大利语)如果思想不是认识到这一点的工具, 那么,什么工具才是呢?
1:01:29 K: You will find out. 克:你会弄清楚的。
1:01:33 Q: (Inaudible) 问:(听不清)
1:01:48 Q: (Italian) You have said, 'There is an alternative instrument to thinking.' 问:(意大利语)你曾说过, 有一种替代思想的工具。
1:01:55 K: There is. What good does that make to you? I say yes, there is. You say, what nonsense, it might be an illusion. 克:是有的。 这么说对你有什么好处吗? 我说是的,有替代工具。 你说,无稽之谈,那或许是一种幻想。
1:02:07 Q: May I ask the same question in a different way: what is the capacity of thought, seeing its limitation? 问:我能用另一种方式来问同一个问题吗? 当看到了自身的局限时,思想又能做些什么呢?
1:02:16 K: Sir, thought has no place in meditation. 克:先生,思想在冥想中是没有位置的。
1:02:20 Q: No, the capacity of seeing its limitation. 问:不是,我是说思想看到其自身局限的能力。
1:02:30 K: Look sir, as a human being living in this world there must be some kind of action, mustn't there? Action, to act. I must do, action is life. And one human being who is fairly intelligent, fairly observing, knows what is happening in the world and so on, and also knows what is happening in himself. He says, what is the right action, what am I to do? With all the surrounding misery. That's what we are investigating – what am I to do? Not all your theories, speculations. To find out what is the total action, so that I have no regrets, no pain, no saying, my God, I wish I hadn't done that. To find that out we say, look, you must put everything in its right place. Say, put thought in its right place, let thought put itself in its right place. Which is, thought has its right place, which is not only the world of technology, but also in the world of language, etc., and thought being the outcome of the past, knowledge, is time-bound, therefore very limited. Right? And that is the only instrument we know. Is there another instrument which is not of this quality? But before we put that question you must find out exactly the limitation of thought, discover it, be aware of it, not just put, is there something else? Are you aware totally of the limitation of thought? 克:瞧,先生,作为一个生活在这个世界上的人, 必须要有某种行动,不是吗? 行为,去行动。 我必须行动,行动就是生活。 并且,一个非常智慧、非常善于观察的人 知道这个世界上正发生着什么,等等, 也同样知道他内心发生着什么。 他问,什么是正确的行动? 我应该做什么? 对于周围这一切的不幸。 那就是我们正在探究的——我应该做什么? 并非你持有的所有那些理论、揣测。 去找出什么是全然的行动, 从而,我便不会有悔恨、痛苦, 不会说,我的上帝,我希望我没那么做过。 要发现全然的行动,我们说, 瞧,你必须将一切事物放置在正确的位置上。 例如,将思想放在其正确的位置上, 让思想将其自身置于正确的位置上。 也就是,思想有它正确的位置, 并不仅仅是在科技的世界里, 在语言的世界里也是如此,等等, 而且,思想是过往、知识的产物, 是受时间限制的,因此是非常局限的。 对吗? 并且,那是我们所知的唯一工具。 是否存在另一种具备不同品质的工具? 可是,在我们问这个问题之前 你必须弄清楚思想的局限性, 探索它,觉知它, 而不只是去问,是否还有另外的东西存在? 你是否能完全觉知到思想的局限性?
1:04:50 Q: Partially.

K: Oh, no. Is it partial, being pregnant?
问:部分觉知。

克:噢,不。 怀孕能是部分的吗?
1:05:09 So, what we are trying to find out is, what is man to do surrounded by this extraordinary confusion, uncertainty, poverty in every direction, what is one to do? You don't ask that question, you don't burn with that question. So we are trying to find out what to do totally. So, all action has been based on thought, either the thought which has said, I have done this, which has brought me pain, I will not do that, but if I do the other thing it will give me pleasure, I will do that. That has been our action. Our action is based on reward and punishment, obviously. And that is the world we have lived in. And that world has no answer. It can keep on going round and round in that world saying, there is an answer, there is an answer, but it will always remain there. That's obvious. 因此,我们正在试图探究的是, 人该做什么, 当每一个方向上都被极度的困惑、 不确定性 和贫乏所围绕时, 人该做什么? 你不问这个问题,你没有觉得这个问题十万火急。 因此,我们在试图找出要怎么全然地行动。 所有的行动一直都是基于思想之上的, 思想要么说过, 我这么做了,给我带来了伤痛, 我不会再那样做, 但是,如果我做别的,就会带给我欢愉, 所以我会那样做。 这一直都是我们的行动。 我们的行动是基于奖励和惩罚之上的, 显而易见。 那便是我们所生活的世界。 并且,那个世界没有答案。 思想可以在那个世界里一遍又一遍地绕圈子, 宣称,有答案,有答案, 可是,它始终都在原地踏步。 那是显而易见的。
1:06:38 So, when there is an understanding of thought, and therefore putting thought in its right place, then what is the instrument, if there an instrument, which is not of thought? But you must put it in the right place, not say, let me investigate the other. That is what you are trying to do. You say, I want to find the other before I give this up. I will give this up if that is much more profitable, if that is much more pleasurable. I say, sorry, thought, whatever it does is limited. So what is there which is not of thought? If somebody has gone into it sufficiently deeply, you will see, then you will ask the question: is love thought? Go on. Can thought cultivate love? And when it cultivates love, is it love? A man who is full of vanity cultivates humility, and he says, I am very humble, that humility is still vanity. 所以,当有了一种对思想的了解, 进而将思想置于其正确的位置之上, 那么,这个工具是什么呢——如果存在一种工具的话, 而且不属于思想的范畴? 可是,你必须把思想放置在正确的位置, 而不是说让我探查“另一个”。 那正是你们在试图做的。 你说,在我放弃这个之前,我要找到另一个。 我会放弃这个——如果另一个更有利可图的话, 如果那更令人愉悦的话。 我会说,抱歉, 思想,无论它做什么都是受制约的。 那么,那不属于思想领域的到底是什么? 如果有人已经充分深入地探究了它, 那么你就会明白, 然后,你会问: 爱是思想吗? 继续。 思想能培育爱吗? 当它培育爱时,那还是爱吗? 一个满是虚荣心的人 培养谦逊, 然后他说,我非常谦卑, 那么,那谦逊仍旧是虚荣。
1:08:28 Is love the product of thought? Answer it, sirs. If it is not, there is the action. Right? So, as love is not manufactured by thought, then what is love? Is there such a thing at all? 爱是思想的产物吗? 回答它,先生们。 如果不是,便会有行动。 对吗? 所以,既然爱不是为思想所造, 那么,什么是爱呢? 到底存在这么一个事物吗?
1:09:19 Q: Love is energy. 问:爱是能量。
1:09:21 K: Oh, madame, asseyez-vous, je vous en prie! 克:噢,女士,恳请你坐下!
1:09:24 Q: But this is a dialogue, I thought you said it is a dialogue. 问:可是,这是一次对话,我记得你说过这是一次对话。
1:09:27 K: But it is not just answer like that, love is energy. That doesn't mean anything. 克:可是对话并非就像那样来回答:爱是能量。 那没有任何意义。
1:09:31 Q: It means something to me.

K: All right. Is love thought? Go on, sir. You say it is not. Then that may be the new instrument.
问:这对我是有意义的。

克:好吧。 爱是思想吗? 继续,先生。 你说它不是。 那么,那可能是新的工具。
1:09:58 Q: Love is the product of reward and punishment. 问:爱是奖赏与惩罚的产物。
1:10:06 K: Love is the product of...

Q: Reward and punishment, you said.
克:爱源于……

问:奖赏与惩罚,你说过的。
1:10:11 K: Oh no, I did not. No, I am afraid we don't understand English either, perhaps I may not understand English. I said our life is based on reward and punishment. Right? And that is the movement of thought. If I do this I will get that, which will be better. If I don't do this I may be punished – punished in the sense I will be unhappy, etc. We have gone beyond that, please. 克:噢,不,我没有。 不,恐怕我们都没能很好地理解英语, 或许,可能我不懂英语。 我说过我们的生活是基于奖赏与惩罚之上的。 对吗? 而那是思想的运动。 如果我做这个,我便能得到别的更好的。 如果我不做这个,我可能会受到惩罚 ——惩罚的意思,就是我会不开心等等。 拜托,这些东西我们都已经探讨过了。
1:10:53 So is love the new instrument? 那么,爱是新的工具吗?
1:11:04 Q: No.

K: No?
问:不是。

克:不是?
1:11:08 Q: There is no instrument needed any more. 问:不再需要任何工具了。
1:11:14 K: You see, you are using the word instrument like a screwdriver. We are not talking of that. That is why I didn't want to use instrument – that gentleman used that word instrument, I didn't – I was just following it. It is not an instrument. Oh lord. We said everything that thought creates is reality. Is love a reality – in the sense we have used that word reality? If it is not it is something entirely different, outside of thought. Right? Have you got it? Or just verbally say yes, quite right, let's go on with it? 克:你瞧,你用"工具"这个词就像是在指一把螺丝刀一样。 我们说的不是这个意思。 那正是我不想使用“工具”这个词的原因 ——那位先生用了“工具”这个词,不是我—— 我只是跟着用了这个词。那并不是一种工具。 噢,上帝。 我们说过,思想所造的一切都是现实。 爱是不是一种现实? ——我们一直用“现实”这个词指的那个意思。 如果不是,它便是某种完全不同的事物, 是在思想之外的。 对吗? 你理解了吗? 还是,只是口头上说,是的,非常正确,让我们继续下去?
1:12:22 So we said, love is not within the realm of thought. It is not sensation, which is the realm of thought. It is not in the realm of thought as pleasure. It is not in the realm of thought as desire. Therefore love is not a remembrance. Now, does the brain, your brain see the fact of this, the reality of it? So as long as there is desire, pleasure, pursuit of pleasure, there is no love, because all these are the product of thought. When there is love, what is the action? Because we are concerned with that. Then what is the relationship between that which we call truth – which may not be – what is the relationship between something which is temporary – thought is temporary, I wonder if you see that, therefore it is time-binding. Now is there something which is not time-binding, which is not temporary, which is not based on reward and so on? We say there is, which is love. Then what is the action in our daily life when there is love? Would you ask that question? You understand what I am asking? 所以我们说过,爱不在思想的领域之中。 它并不是思想领域之中的感官感受。 它并不是思想领域之中的欢愉。 它也不是思想范畴之中的欲望。 因此,爱不是一种记忆。 现在,是否大脑,你的大脑 看到了这个事实,看到了这其中的现实? 因此,只要有欲望、 欢愉、对欢愉的追求, 便没有爱的存在, 因为所有这些都是思想的产物。 当爱存在时, 行动是什么呢? 因为我们都很关切这个。 那么,什么是 那其间的关系呢?也就是我们所谓的真相 ——也许它不存在—— 与某种暂时性事物间的关系 ——思想是暂时性的, 我想知道你们是否明白这点, 因此它是受时间限制的。 那么,是否有某种事物是不受时间限制的, 它并非暂时性的, 也不是基于奖赏等等的? 我们认为这是存在的,那便是爱。 那么,什么是我们日常生活里的行动 ——当有爱存在时? 你会问那个问题吗? 你理解我在问的是什么吗?
1:14:51 Q: You said as long as there is the product of thought there is no love. Therefore as long as there is the building, the technology, there is no love. 问:你说过,只要有思想的产物, 便没有爱。 因此,只要有建筑物、科技的存在, 便没有爱。
1:15:04 K: No sir, you are going off. It is such a waste. I'll go on. 克:不,先生,你偏题了。 这真是一种浪费。 我会继续讲。
1:15:19 What is the action of a man who has understood reality, not mentally, intellectually, but deeply. He has put reality in its right place. And perhaps he has that perfume of love. What is his action? Would you put such a question? 一个已经了解了现实的人,他的行动是什么样的? 不是从道理上、头脑上,而是很深刻地了解了。 他已经将现实放置在它正确的位置上了。 并且,或许,他拥有了那份爱的芬芳。 他的行动是什么? 你会问这样一个问题吗?
1:15:51 Q: No. 问:不。
1:15:52 K: No, don't please say no or yes. For God's sake, find out. That's a wrong question, isn't it? If there is that thing called love, then it acts without you.. Please follow this very carefully. In investigating the whole structure and the nature of all reality, and giving it its right place, the mind has become extraordinarily intelligent – not the intelligence of cunning, conspiratorial cunning – it has become extraordinarily sensitive, and alive, and therefore intelligent. Therefore that intelligence is not of thought. 克:不,请不要说不或者是。 看在上帝的份上,去弄清楚。 那是一个错误的问题,不是吗? 如果真的存在那种被称为爱的事物, 那么它就会采取行动,哪怕你没有 请仔细理解这点。 在探究所有现实的整个结构 和本质的过程中, 以及给予现实正确位置的过程中, 心已经变得出人意料的智慧了 ——并非那种狡诈的聪明、 阴谋性的狡猾—— 心已经变得超乎寻常的敏锐, 充满活力,并因此而非常有智慧。 因此,那种智慧并不是属于思想的。
1:17:01 Q: Sir, would you allow a very small experiment? 问:先生,你愿意做一个非常小的实验吗?
1:17:06 K: Just a minute, madame. Sorry, I am in the middle of a sentence. 克:等一下,女士。 抱歉,我说了一半还没说完。
1:17:10 Q: I know.

K: Sorry, I am not going to listen. I am in the middle of a sentence, madame.
问:我知道。

克:抱歉,我不会听你说, 因为我才说了一半,女士。
1:17:17 Q: I know.

K: Then please politely...
问:我知道。

克:那么,请有礼貌地
1:17:20 Q: Would you please listen to me? 问:能恳请你听我说句话吗?
1:17:25 Q: Sit down, please. 问:请坐下。
1:17:29 Q: Please. 问:请坐。
1:17:35 K: What were you going to say? 克:你刚要说什么?
1:17:37 Q: I ask you very kindly. 问:我是非常有礼貌地问你。
1:17:41 K: What were you going to say? 克:你刚要说什么?
1:17:44 Q: You've tried to make people see the concept of sensitivity as being either true or not. And more or less denied the role of the word or the image in making this clear. I would like to try to illustrate what you said. 问:你一直试图让人们明白 敏感的概念,明白它是否正确。 并且,或多或少地否定了文字或形象的作用, 为了把这点表达清楚。 我想要尝试举个例子来阐明你所说的。
1:18:11 K: I am asking a question about what you are saying. Are you French or English? 克:关于你说的内容,我问个问题。 你是法国人还是英国人?
1:18:18 Q: I was born in Holland a long time ago. 问:很早以前,我在荷兰出生。
1:18:20 K: Which language do you speak easily? 克:哪种语言你说得更溜?
1:18:23 Q: You speak English easily. Can you understand my English? Would you like to try? 问:你英语说得很溜。你能理解我的英语吗? 你想试试吗?
1:18:31 K: Are you expressing easily in English? 克:你能够轻松地用英语来表达吗?
1:18:35 Q: Yes.

K: Then please be brief.
问:是的。

克:那么,请简洁一点。
1:18:37 Q: Yes. Sensitivity, concept without the image, and without the use of words, I feel that only through the concept you cannot ask people to see. The word sensitivity would perhaps mean something if I gave you a picture. There is a kind of sensitivity that is rather like a dustbin, with the lid open and the bottom in. That's one. There is another kind that has the lid open and no bottom. 问:好的。“敏感”这个概念,如果你不使用形象、 不使用文字的话, 只是通过这个概念,我觉得你是无法让别人明白的。 如果我能给你一个画面, 那么“敏感”这个词也许就有意义了。 存在着一种“敏感”, 那更像是一个垃圾桶,盖子敞开着,你可以看到桶底。 那是一种。 还有另一种垃圾桶,盖子敞开着,但是没有底。
1:19:07 K: I don't understand.

Q: Do you see that?
克:我不明白。

问:你明白了吗?
1:19:10 Q: It keeps all that comes in, and it holds it in, and it relates it to the self, and it hangs on to that. Do you see? And if there is no bottom, then this goes right through. 问:它让一切都进入其内,并将所有都保留其中, 把一切与自我联系起来,并将其紧紧抓住。 你明白了吗? 然而如果这个桶没有底,那么这些东西就会穿桶而过了。
1:19:29 K: Right, madame.

Q: It is not an illustration you feel?
克:好的,女士。

问:你觉得这不是一个例子吗?
1:19:34 Q: Do you see what I am telling you? I think there are three elements to make things clear, and that words and images shouldn't be discarded as useless, you cannot only see things with your head. 问:你明白我在告诉你什么吗? 我认为这里有三个要素来让问题明朗化, 并且,语言文字和形象不应该被当做废物弃之, 你不能只用你的头脑来看事物。
1:19:51 K: Please sit down, you have stated what you wanted to say. 克:请坐下,你已经阐述了你想要说的东西。
1:19:54 Q: Yes. 问:是的。
1:20:16 K: So if one has, if I may point out most respectfully, if one has gone into this, as we have gone, very closely, very hesitantly into what is reality, and in seeing what is reality there is a sharpening of not only the intellect, not only your sensitivity, out of that comes a quality of intelligence which is not of thought – if you have done it. Then that intelligence is love. Then action is dictated by that intelligence, wherever we are. It may say, you become a gardener, or this or that, that intelligence is love and therefore that intelligence acts. 克:那么,如果有人已经,恕我带着敬意指出, 如果有人已经探究了这个问题,恰如我们所做的那样, 非常细致地、非常谨慎地探究了什么是现实, 并且,在看清什么是现实的过程中, 就会有一种敏锐,不仅是智力更敏锐, 不仅是你的敏感度, 那种敏锐所带来的是某种品质的智慧, 它并不属于思想的范畴 ——如果你已经探究过的话。 那种智慧便是爱。 那么,行动就由那种智慧所主导 ——无论我们在哪里。 它可能会说,你会成为一名园丁,又或是别的什么, 那种智慧便是爱, 因此,那份智慧会行动。
1:21:25 Then you can go on much further, if you want to go into it. Is intelligence, this intelligence, not the intelligence of cunning, verbal disputations, dialectical opinions and so on, but a mind that has put everything in its right place: the building, the illusion, the fear, everything, therefore through observation and putting everything in its place, there is intelligence. We are saying that is the new moment of action. 之后,你可以更加深入下去,如果你想要探究的话。 是否这种智慧 不同于狡诈的聪明、口头的辩驳、 辩证的观点等等, 而是一颗已经把一切置于其正确位置上的心: 建筑物,幻想,恐惧,一切事物, 因此,通过观察并且将一切置于其所属位置, 便有了智慧的存在。 我们认为那是行动的崭新时刻。
1:22:23 Now what is the relationship – I better not enter into that. That will be theory, won't it? I would like to ask what is the relationship of intelligence to compassion, to clarity and skill. We said skill, by itself has no meaning. If it has a meaning, that makes one more and more selfish, more and more egotistical, and limited. It becomes egotistic, limited because there is no clarity, and clarity comes with compassion. Right? 那么,什么是关系 ——我最好不探究这个。 那会成为理论,不是吗? 我想问, 智慧与慈悲、 与清明、与技能之间的关系是什么。 我们说过,技能,就其本身而言没有任何意义。 如果它有一种意义,那就是使人越来越自私, 越来越自负,越来越局限。 它变得自负、局限,是因为没有清明, 而清明源于慈悲。 对吗?
1:23:26 So in our daily life, everyday life, not a life for a few weeks at Saanen, but when you go back home, everyday of your life, can this operate, move? That is, compassion, clarity and skill. Because you must have skill in life. Skill may be with one's hand, skill may be an intellectual skill, skill may be communication, verbal communication, but when that skill is without the other two it becomes what we have made the world into cunning, deceptive, hypocrisy, using skill to achieve a status, and the moment you have status you become very proud, privileged, you know, all the rest of it. So where there is compassion, clarity and skill there is no vanity, no hypocrisy, no contradiction. 那么,在我们的日常生活里,每一天的生活里, 并不只是在萨能这几个星期的生活, 而是当你回到家后,在你生活的每一天里, 能否都这样运作、行动呢? 也就是, 慈悲,清明以及技能。 因为,你在生活里必须具备技能。 技能可能是手工性的, 技能可能是智力性的, 技能也可能是指交流沟通, 口头上的交流, 可是,当那种技能没有另外两者相伴, 它便会成为我们已经将世界变成的模样 ——奸诈、欺骗、虚伪, 利用技能来得到某种地位, 并且,一旦获得了地位,你就会变得非常骄傲,享有特权, 你知道这一切。 因此,有慈悲、清明以及技能的地方, 便没有虚荣,没有虚伪,没有矛盾。
1:24:55 I would like to go into something much deeper, which is, what is the relationship when there is this total action to meditation, meditation which is the complete emptying of all the content of one's consciousness, which we have talked about, and what is the relationship of that to total silence, emptiness? You understand? One is afraid to use the word emptiness because we think emptiness, my God, that is nothing. After all I have worked and lived, and I end up in emptiness? You follow? But when you have put everything in its right place, which is the art of living, the art of living is to give everything its proper place. That is the art of living, which is the greatest skill, and out of that orderly life one has this intelligence, which is love. And with love goes compassion, and clarity and skill. Now, what is the relationship of intelligence to that which is the outcome, the natural outcome without effort, of total emptying of the mind of its content, which is real meditation, you understand? We talked about it sufficiently. 我想要探究一件更为深刻的事, 那就是, 当有了这种全然的行动时, 与冥想的关系是什么? 冥想是完全的清空 我们意识里所有的内容, 这点我们已经谈过了, 冥想与完全的寂静和空无又是什么关系? 你明白吗? 我不太敢用“空无”这个字眼, 因为,我们认为“空无”,天哪,那是一无所有。 在历经我所有的工作和生活之后, 到最后却是一场空? 你理解吗? 可是,当你已经将一切放在了其正确的位置上时, 那是生活的艺术, 生活的艺术就是 让一切事物处在其正当的位置。 那即是生活的艺术,也是最了不起的技能, 而出自那种井然有序的生活,我们便拥有了这份智慧, 那种智慧也就是爱。 并且,与爱同行的还有慈悲、清明以及技能。 那么,智慧与 清空的结果有什么关系 ——完全清空心灵内容时 自然地、毫不费力地产生的结果—— 这便是真正的冥想,你明白吗? 我们充分讨论过这个问题了。
1:26:52 What is the relationship of intelligence to silence? You understand? When there is the right kind of meditation, silence must be the central issue, the central core of meditation is the total emptying of all the fears and so on, so that consciousness as we know it is gone, doesn't exist. And what is the relationship of this intelligence to this total silence of emptiness? You understand? No. I won't go into it. One can go into it if you have gone that far. Not verbally but actually in daily life, then it is fun to explore. What time is it? 智慧与寂静之间的关系是什么? 你明白吗? 当正确的冥想存在时, 寂静就必定是核心问题, 冥想的核心 是完全清空所有的恐惧等等, 由此,那份我们所知的意识便会消失,不复存在。 那么,这种智慧 与这种空无的全然寂静有怎样的关系呢? 你明白吗?不,我不会再讲这个问题了。 如果你已经探索了那么远,你可以自己去探究。 不是从口头上,而是真正地在日常生活之中去做, 那么,探索会非常有趣。 现在几点了?
1:28:09 Q: Twelve o'clock. 问:十二点。
1:28:11 K: Twelve. Buona sera. 克:十二点。 晚安。