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SA77D5 - 关系和智慧
公共讲座 5
萨能, 瑞士
1977年 7月 31日



0:24 Krishnamurti: I am so sorry it is such bad weather. This is the last dialogue, or discussion, or whatever one likes to call it. I wonder how much one has got out of all these talks and discussions. Whether one has deeply understood and changed, transformed oneself, or do we still remain half way up the hill. Because I think we ought to ask this question of ourselves. We said the other day, the word mediocrity means going up the hill only half way, and excellence means going all the way up. And I wonder whether we are moving, or staying only half way, frightened, anxious, uncertain, not knowing what to do, and remain there. 克里希那穆提:天气这么糟糕,我实在抱歉。 这是最后一次对话, 或者讨论,又或者随便什么我们喜欢的称呼。 我想知道 我们从所有的这些谈话和讨论中明白了多少。 是否有人已经 深刻地了解并转变了, 转化了自我, 还是,我们仍然待在半山腰上。 因为我认为,我们应该问问自己这个问题。 前些天,我们说过, “平庸”这个字眼意味着仅仅攀登至半山腰, 而“优秀”意味着攀登到了顶峰。 那么,我想知道,我们是正在前进, 还是仅仅停留在了半山腰上, 内心充斥着恐惧、焦虑、不确定, 不知道该做什么,于是只能停留在那里。
2:02 So I think it would be rather interesting and worthwhile if one could go into this question for yourselves. But before I go into all this, are there any things to talk over together? 所以我认为,这会是相当有趣和值得的 ——如果我们能够亲自探究这个问题的话。 可是,在我开始探究这一切之前, 是否有什么要我们一起来探讨的事呢?
2:23 Questioner: Could we discuss the importance of relationship and self-knowing? 提问者:我们能否讨论一下关系 与自我了解的重要性?
2:31 K: Oh, yes. 克:噢,好的。
2:33 Q: When thought stops, what is that which is aware, and what is the relationship of this awareness to the sacred? 问:当思想停止时,那份觉知是什么, 这份觉知与神圣之间的关系是什么?
2:46 Q: Sacred. 问:神圣。
2:49 K: To the sacred. 克:与神圣的关系。
2:57 Q: (French, inaudible) 问:(法语,听不清)
3:01 K: (French) Vous voulez parler dix minutes? Soyez bref, je vous prie. Please be very short, not ten minutes, a minute. 克:(法语)你是想说十分钟吗?请简短点,谢谢。 请非常简短,不是十分钟,而是一分钟。
3:30 Q: (inaudible) 问:(听不清)
5:03 K: Sir, I have to translate what you say in English because many of them don't understand French. 克:先生,我必须用英文翻译你所说的, 因为他们大多数人都不懂法语。
5:19 Q: (inaudible)

K: (French) Non, je vous prie. Qu'est-ce que vous voulez dire ? En deux mots. Dites en deux mots, je vous prie, ce que vous voulez.
问:(听不清)

克:(法语)不,拜托。 你所指的是什么?请用两句话表达。 请用两句话概述你所想的,拜托。
5:42 Q: (inaudible) 问:(听不清)
6:44 K: (French) C'est très difficile de traduire tout ça en anglais 克:把这些都翻译成英文是非常困难的。
6:51 Q: (inaudible)... parce que vous êtes un Dieu pour ces gens. 问:(听不清)……因为你对于这些人而言,是像神一般的存在。
7:16 K: (French) Je vous en prie, non, non. C'est une blague, tout ça. 克:(法语)不,不,拜托,那只是一个玩笑。
7:31 Q: (inaudible) 问:(听不清)
8:23 K: I think the gentleman is asking, if I can understand him properly – and if I am mistaken, I am sorry – he is asking, why do you speak, you are a god to these people, and so on and so on. Right? That's the real meaning of what he is trying to say. 克:如果我理解恰当的话,我认为,这位先生是在问 ——如果我弄错了,很抱歉—— 他是在问,你为什么要演讲, 对于这些人,你是一个神,等等,等等。 对吗? 这是他想表达的真正意思。
8:46 Q: (Italian) There is another more important thing (inaudible) 问:(意大利语)还有另一件更加重要的事(听不清)
9:06 K: Ah, I understand. Why isn't there after so many years of talking, one person who can take your place on the platform. 克:啊,我明白。 为什么在这么多年的演讲后 仍然没有一个可以取代你坐在演讲台上的人。
9:21 Q: No, with you.

K: Or who can sit beside me. You come over and sit beside me, all of you.
问:不,是与你一起。

克:或是可以与我并肩而坐的人。 你们都过来坐在我身边,你们所有人。
9:31 Q: If there is. 问:如果有的话。
9:33 K: If there is one who really understood what the speaker has said then why doesn't he sit here and help me to convey? Then I invite all of you to come and sit here. 克:如果有一个人真正地懂得了讲话者所说的, 那么,他为什么不坐在这里来帮我传达呢? 那我邀请你们所有人都过来坐在这里。
9:55 Q: (Inaudible) 问:(听不清)
10:13 K: Look, what is this? This is not a political meeting! Would you please sit down? Madame, what would like to ask? 克:瞧,这是什么? 这不是一场政治会议! 能请你坐下吗? 女士,你想要问什么?
10:52 Q: Can love go beyond death? 问:爱可以超越死亡吗?
10:59 K: Can love go beyond death. Please sit down. 克:爱是否可以超越死亡。请坐下。
11:07 Q: I have this process in myself and I wish to open myself. How can I do that without inventing a god? A god, Atman and so on. 问:我内心有这个过程,并且我想要打开我自己。 如果不发明一个上帝,我如何才能那样做呢? 一个上帝、真我等等。
11:28 K: How can I open myself without inventing a god. What was your question, sir, first question? 克:如果不发明一个上帝,我如何能敞开我自己? 你的问题是什么,先生,第一个问题?
11:43 Q: Could we discuss the importance of relationship and self-knowledge. 问:我们能讨论一下关系与自我了解的重要性吗?
11:50 K: Shall we start with that? 克:我们能以那个问题开始吗?
11:57 Q: When I try to investigate deeper questions often there is a feeling of isolation like an invisible wall around myself. And I'm not able to face that wall. Can we also go into that? 问:当我尝试去探究更加深刻的问题时, 常常会有一种孤立无援的感觉, 像有一堵无形的墙围绕着我自己。 而且,我无法面对那堵墙。 我们也可以探讨一下这个吗?
12:19 K: I think by taking that question of what he said: relationship to self-knowledge. Right? I think we will stay with that because otherwise we will get lost. And also I think we will finish with what we were talking about yesterday. 克:我想可以探讨他所说的那个问题: 关系和自我了解。 对吗? 我认为我们要紧扣这个问题,否则我们会迷失的。 同时,我想我们要先了结 我们昨天谈到的话题。
12:42 Let's be very clear about one or two things – I am not your god. 我们先要弄清楚一两件事——我不是你们的神。
12:50 Q: Thank God.

K: Thank God. And I am not your leader or your guru. Please, for God's sake do listen to what we are saying. We are not trying to impress you, influence you, to tell you what to do – nothing of the kind. But I think it is very important for human beings to communicate with each other. To communicate implies we must both be interested in the same thing, at the same level, with the same intensity, otherwise you can't communicate. If you are not interested in this question of self, and the relationship of that self with another, which is very important – of sociological as well as psychological importance – I don't think any talking about it becomes clear. Unless one wants to go into these things very carefully I think we had better stop talking to each other.
问:感谢上帝。

克:感谢上帝。 而且,我也不是你们的领袖、你们的古鲁。 拜托,看在上帝的份上,务必倾听我们正在说的这些。 我们没有在试图给你留下深刻印象、影响你, 或者告知你该做什么——完全不是那样的。 而是我认为,对于人类而言,非常重要的是 要与彼此交流。 交流意味着,我们双方必须都对同一件事感兴趣, 在相同的层次上,有着相同的热情, 否则,你就无法交流。 如果你对“自我”这个问题 以及自我与他人关系的问题都不感兴趣 ——这些非常重要, 有着社会学以及心理学上的重要性—— 那么,我认为对它的任何讨论都不会令你明了。 除非你想要非常细致地探究这些事物, 否则,我认为我们最好停下与彼此的谈话。
14:07 First of all, yesterday we were talking about something very important, it seems to me at least. We were saying, what is love in relationship with each other. That was the thing we were talking about yesterday – the love that exists between man and woman, the love of a mother with her baby, the love of one's country and so on. We were going to go into that question, we said: can there be love if there is no total comprehension or self-knowledge? Right? We were exploring that question. And that question also can be answered this morning when he put that question: what is the relationship between human beings who have self-knowledge, or who are understanding themselves? That's the first question raised. 首先, 昨天我们谈了一件非常重要的事情, 至少于对我而言是这样的。 我们说, 彼此间关系里的爱是什么? 那是我们昨天在讨论的问题 ——存在于男人和女人间的爱, 母亲与她孩子间的爱, 某人对于国家的爱等等。 我们探究了那个问题,我们说: 如果没有完整的了解或是自我了解,会有爱存在吗? 对吗? 我们探索了那个问题。 而那个问题同样也可以在今天早上得到回答 ——当他提出了那个问题时: 对有自我了解的人, 或是在了解自己的人,他们彼此之间的关系是什么? 这是提出的第一个问题。
15:33 Are you all quiet now, after all the morning disturbance? I would like if I may, to go into this question with you – a dialogue, this is communication between us, both verbally and non verbally – go into this question. Because most of us, as far as one sees throughout the world, have no real understanding, or the depth of this extraordinary word called love. And it is worthwhile, I think, to go into it very quietly, not offering opinions, – your opinion against my opinion, or your ideas of what love is and so on – exploring, which is quite different from offering opinions. 在早上的一阵纷扰过后,现在你们都安静了吗? 如果可以的话,我想和你们一同探究这个问题 ——一次对话,这是我们之间的一场交流, 既借助语言,又不仅限于语言—— 探究这个问题。 因为我们大多数人 ——据我在全世界看到的—— 没有真正地了解 “爱”这个非凡的字眼或者它的深度。 然而,我认为,非常安静地探究它是值得的, 而不是提供意见——你的意见反对我的意见, 或者你对于什么是爱的看法等等—— 探索与提供意见是非常不同的。
16:38 So can we go into that question, which is related to self-knowledge. We said self-knowledge, knowing oneself, must begin knowing the world outside, knowing what is happening in the world – politically, religiously, economically, socially, racially, the class differences, the totalitarian states, leftist, right and centre, all that one must observe. It is not possible to observe if one is prejudiced. That is very simple and very clear. If I stick to my nationality, to my belief, to my race, and say, I cannot possibly investigate, explore, observe the world. So through the observation of what is taking place outside of each human being – Oh, lord – without observing what is going on around us, socially, morally, religiously and so on, merely to investigate oneself leads to insanity, because there, the object can be observed, very clearly – what is going on. From there you begin. Move from the outer to the inner, not the inner and then the outer. You can deceive yourself enormously if you begin with yourself. Whereas if one begins from the outer, then goes deeply within oneself, then you will see there is no difference between the outer and the inner. It may be like the sea, the ebb and flow, going out and coming in all the time. 因此, 我们能否探究那个 有关自我了解的问题。 我们所说的自我了解,了解自己, 必须开始于了解外在的世界, 了解这个世界上正在发生着什么 ——政治上,宗教上,经济上, 社会上,种族上,阶级差别, 极权政府,左翼,右翼以及中间派, 我们必须观察那一切。 如果我们带有偏见,那就无法观察。 这是非常简单明了的。 如果我坚守我的国籍、我的信仰、我的种族, 并且说……我就完全无法去探查、 探索、观察这个世界。 那么,通过观察 每个人之外的世界都在发生些什么 ——噢,上帝—— 若没有对于我们周围正在发生的事的观察 ——社会上、道德上、宗教上等等, 而只是去探究自己,这会导致精神错乱, 因为在那里,事物可以被非常清晰地观察 ——正在发生着什么。 你可以从那里开始。 从外在转入内在, 而不是先内在后外在。 否则,你会严重地欺骗你自己, 如果你从你自身开始的话。 可是,如果我们从外在开始, 然后深入我们自己的内在,那么,你将会看到 外在与内在之间是没有任何不同的。 可能就像大海一样,潮起潮落, 总是在不断地进进退退。
19:06 Now to observe oneself, we said, one must be free to look. Freedom implies freedom from prejudice, belief, dogma, conclusion, so that you can observe yourself, otherwise you will see what you want to see, or deny what you see. Right? So to observe there must be freedom. That's simple. Now, can we do this as we are talking? Can we, wanting to understand the extraordinary complex structure and the nature of the self, the 'me', observe that structure and that nature of this self without any conclusion? If you say, that is very difficult, one cannot do that, then you have blocked yourself. That's simple. Whereas if one is really involved in it, because what one is, the society, the religions, all that is the result. If you are envious, greedy, seeking power, position, you create a society which will bring about what you are – greed, power, position and all the rest of it. 那么,为了观察自身,我们曾说过, 我们必须自由地去观察。 自由意味着 摆脱偏见、信仰、教条、结论, 于是你能够观察你自己, 否则你就会看到你想要看见的东西, 或者否定你所看到的东西。 对吗? 因此,观察必须要有自由。 这很简单。 那么,我们能如我们所说的那样去做吗? 我们渴望了解这复杂得超乎寻常的自我结构, 以及它的本质,那么,我们能否 观察那个结构,以及这自我的本质, 而不持有任何结论呢? 如果你说,那非常困难,我无法做到那样, 那么你已经阻碍了你自己。 这很简单。 但是,如果我们真的关心这个问题, 因为我们实际的样子是什么, 社会、宗教,等等一切不过是随之而来的结果。 如果你嫉妒、贪婪,寻求权力、地位, 你创造出的社会便会呈现为你的样子 ——贪婪,权力,地位以及诸如此类。
20:59 Is it possible to observe oneself without any distortion? Please follow it step by step, we say it is possible only when there is no direction, when there is no motive. Because the motive dictates the direction, and distorts the observation. That's clear. Then you will say, how can I observe myself without a motive because I am full of motives. motives being reward and punishment essentially. Isn't it? So can one look at oneself freely without this tremendous tradition of man seeking reward and avoiding punishment, but just to be free to look? Let's do this as we are talking. 是否可能观察自身而不做任何的歪曲? 请一步步地跟上, 我们认为,只有在没有方向、 没有动机时,这才可能。 因为,是动机主宰了方向, 并且扭曲了观察。 这是一目了然的。 然后你会说,我如何能不带任何动机地观察我自己, 因为我充满了动机, 主要是奖惩的动机。 不是吗? 那么,你能否自由地观察自身 而没有这种 寻求奖赏、避免惩罚的巨大传统, 仅仅去自由地观察? 在我们谈话时,我们就来这么做。
22:18 And in observing, one of the most fundamental questions is: what is a relationship between human beings – relationship – man, woman, husband, wife, mother and baby, and so on? Because if our relationship is not correct – I am using the word 'correct' in the English sense: actual, truthful, right – then we create a society, either a society which is disintegrating, which is so appalling, or a world of totalitarianism. We create it, and accept it. We will go into that, leave it for the moment. 并且,在观察的过程中, 其中一个最基础的问题就是: 人与人之间的关系是什么? ——关系—— 男人,女人,丈夫,妻子,母亲以及孩子,等等。 因为,如果我们的关系是不恰当的 ——我是从英语的释义上来使用“恰当” 这个字眼的—— 实际的,真实的,正确的—— 那么,我们所创造的社会 要么是一个分裂的社会, 它是如此的可怕, 要么是一个极权主义的世界。 我们创造了它,接受了它。 我们回头再探讨那个,暂时先把它搁下。
23:23 So, it is very important to understand relationship. Right? Relationship implies, the meaning of the word is to be related, actually to be related, to be in contact, to have empathy, sympathy, a sense of sensitivity that understands each other completely, not partially. So as most human beings have not that relationship at all, their relationship is based on conflict, how does this conflict arise? Please, this is important if you will go together into this because our life is involved, don't let's waste our life, we have only got this life – good enough. What the future life may be, it doesn't matter, what we are now, if we don't change what we are, we will continue in a different form – I won't go into that. 因此,去了解关系是非常重要的。 对吗? 关系是指, 这个词的意思是指互相关联, 真正地互相关联,有联系, 有同情心,有共鸣, 一种理解彼此的敏感性 ——完整地,不是局部地。 那么,因为大多数的人类根本没有那样的关系, 他们的关系是基于冲突的, 这种冲突又是如何产生的呢? 拜托,你一同来探究这些是非常重要的, 因为我们的生活都牵涉其中,别浪费了我们的生命, 我们只有这一生——足够好了。 来生可能是什么样的并不重要, 重要的是我们现在是什么, 如果我们不改变我们现在的样子,我们只会 换个形式继续——我不会讲那些了。
24:39 So it is very important to understand this question of relationship because that is part of self-knowledge, part of knowing oneself. Through relationship, which is the outside, from the understanding of relationship, you can then move inwardly. So it is important to understand relationship. Which is, are we related at all to anything – nature, to each other, private intimate relationship, sexual, the mother and the baby, and so on – relationship? Now, what is this relationship based on? Please follow it for yourself. You have your husband, you have got your girlfriend or boyfriend, a mother with a baby, all that is part of our life, so please follow this, if you will, be serious enough for once in your life. 所以,了解关系这个问题非常重要, 因为那就是自我了解的一部分, 了解自己的一部分。 通过关系, 关系是外在的, 通过对于关系的了解, 你便可以转向内在了。 因此,了解关系很重要。 也就是说,我们与无论什么东西真的有关系吗? ——与自然, 与彼此, 私人的亲密关系,性关系, 母亲和孩子,等等——有关系吗? 那么,这种关系是基于什么之上呢? 请你自己去了解。 你有丈夫, 你有女朋友,或是男朋友, 一个有小孩的母亲,那一切都是我们生活的一部分, 因此,拜托,跟上这个,如果你愿意的话, 在你的人生中就这一次足够严肃。
26:04 What is this relationship based on? Is it two entities, two human beings deeply concerned with themselves, deeply occupied with their own ambitions, with their own worries, with their own anxieties, uncertainties, confusion, these two people meet – boy and a girl and so on. And then there is all the problem of sex, and in this relationship because each is separate inwardly there is conflict. Obviously. Right? Can we go on with it? 这关系是基于什么之上的呢? 是不是两个存在体, 两个牢牢关注自身的人, 被自身的野心深深占据, 被自身的担忧、自身的焦虑、 不确定性以及困惑所占据的人, 这两个人遇见了——男孩和某个女孩等等。 然后,便有了性爱等各种问题, 并且,在这个关系中,因为彼此内在是分离的, 冲突便出现了。 显而易见。 对吗? 我们能接着讲吗?
27:02 So, conflict becomes inevitable when each one of us is occupied so entirely with himself. Which we are. And we need to be, in exploring this, tremendously honest otherwise the game is not worth playing. Now the problem is: can this relationship exist without effort, without this constant strife between human beings, and what then is that relationship in which there is no conflict at all? You are following? So why does this conflict exist, first? It seems that this conflict exists because each one is centred within himself: from himself he goes out, from himself he acts, from himself he says, I love you, but the centre is the me, the self. This is clear, isn't it? We are describing what is very obvious. 于是,冲突变得不可避免, 当我们每一个人都是如此完全地被自身所占据时。 我们实际就是这样的。 而在探索这些的过程中,我们需要极度诚实, 否则,这游戏就不值得玩。 现在,问题是:这关系能否不费力气地存在, 没有人与人之间持续不断的纷争, 还有,那种完全没有冲突的关系又是什么? 你们理解吗? 首先,为什么这种冲突会存在? 这种冲突的存在似乎是 因为每个人都以自己为中心: 从他自身出发与人交往, 从他自己的角度去行动, 从他自己的角度说,我爱你, 然而,这中心就是“我”,自我。 这很清楚,不是吗? 我们在描述非常明显的东西。
28:40 Now the question is: can that centre be understood and dissolved? Otherwise life, which is relationship, must inevitably be a series of incidents and conflicts. That's clear. So we are asking: can this centre be understood, watched, see the nature of it, the structure of it, and end it – not verbally, but actually end it? That is our question. Therefore one must observe freely the nature and the structure of the self. May I go on? 那么,问题是: 那个中心是否能被了解和消除? 否则,生活,也就是关系, 会不可避免地成为一系列的事件和冲突。 这很清楚。 因此,我们问:是否这中心 可以被了解、观察, 看到它的本质、它的结构,从而终结它 ——不是从口头上,而是真正地终结它? 这就是我们的问题。 因此,我们必须自由地观察 自我的本质和结构。 我能继续吗?
29:52 So various questions are put: what am I, who am I, accept what the psychologists say, and the latest psychologist with his peculiar ideas, and new way of thinking, you say, by Jove, I will accept that. We are saying don't accept anything because then you are merely copying what the psychologist says you are. Right? So there is no authority in the observation of oneself – Freud, Jung and the whole bally lot of them. Wipe it out, and begin. Because then what you discover is original, not second-hand. 由此,各种问题都被提了出来:我是什么,我是谁, 接受心理学家所说的, 以及持有奇特想法 和新颖思考方式的最时新的心理学家, 你说,老天,我会接受那个。 我们说,不要接受任何东西, 因为那样的话,你仅仅是在复制心理学家对你的说法。 对吗? 因此,没有权威存在于 对自我的观察中 ——弗洛伊德、荣格,以及所有那群讨厌的人。 把他们都抹掉, 然后开始。 因为,那样你所发现的才是原创的, 而不是二手的。
31:07 So, it is only possible to observe oneself in relationship, how one reacts to another, how one looks at another, what are the verbal and non-verbal communications with each other. So it is only in relationship that one sees what one is, actually, not theoretically, not subjectively, but seeing in relationship your responses. Now, the responses are the expression of what you have remembered. Are you following? You have remembered certain incidents, certain expressions, verbal, gestures, it is stored up, you have registered them, the brain has registered them. And what you have registered becomes a memory and with that memory you observe. That's fairly clear, right? You observe your relationship with another with the past memories, therefore you are not observing, right? So is it possible not to register at all? Please, this is really a very, very complex question. Unless you give your mind, intelligence, your capacity to think clearly you won't capture this. And you must be serious because this is one of the most fundamental questions: whether the brain, which is registering all the time, which is consciously or unconsciously absorbing, which is registering, and this registration is like a tape which is being played over and over and over again. Right? So we are asking: is it possible for that tape, that machinery, which registers, to stop? Are we meeting each other? Somebody tell me, please. Are we together? 因此,这只有在关系中去观察自己才可能实现, 观察我们是如何对别人做出反应的, 我们是如何看待别人的, 什么是彼此间语言和非语言的交流。 因此,只有在关系中我们才能看到自身真实的样子 ——真正地看到,并非从理论上、从主观上, 而是看到你自己在关系中的各种回应。 而这些回应便是你所记住事物的表达。 你理解吗? 你记住了某些事件、 某些表达,语言的,动作的, 这些都存储了起来, 你已经将它们登记在案,大脑已经记录了它们。 然后,你所记录的变成了记忆, 然后你带着那些记忆去观察。 这非常清楚,对吗? 你用过往的记忆来观察你与别人的关系, 因此,你并没有在观察,对吗? 那么,是否可能完全不去记录呢? 拜托,这真的是一个非常非常复杂的问题。 除非你付出自己的心灵、智慧、 自己的能力去清晰地思考, 否则你无法领会它。 而且,你必须认真, 因为这是最根本的问题之一: 是否大脑——一直在记录的大脑, 有意识或无意识地在吸纳的大脑, 一直在记录的大脑, 并且,这记录就像一盘在播放的磁带, 一遍又一遍地重复着。 对吗? 所以我们问:那个记录的磁带、机器 是否可能停止运作呢? 我们互相理解了吗? 有人能告诉我一下吗,拜托。 我们达成共识了吗?
34:01 Q: Yes.

K: Bene. Please, I am not your god. You are not my followers, I am not your guru – we are together taking the journey into something tremendously important in life. If you are not doing it, don't listen, think of something else. But if you do pay attention, give your whole attention to it.
问:是的。

克:好的。 拜托,我不是你们的神。 你们不是我的追随者,我不是你们的古鲁 ——我们在一起踏上一段 探索生命中某些极其重要的事物的旅程。 如果你没有这样做, 就别听了,去想些别的什么吧。 可是,如果你确实是关注的, 那就对它赋予全身心的关注。
34:38 The brain, its function is to register. It registers because in that registration there is security. Right? It feels safe because it says, I know, I remember, and in that remembrance, in the conclusions which I have, I am secure. Right? 大脑,它的功能就是去记录。 它记录是因为 在记录的过程中有安全感的存在。 对吗? 它感到安全, 因为它说,我知道, 我记得,在那份记忆里, 在我抱有的结论里,我是安全的。 对吗?
35:16 So the brain demands security, like a baby, it must have security right from the beginning, otherwise it becomes neurotic, all kinds of things happen to the baby. Now, the brain is seeking security because having security implies it can function effectively. If it is uncertain, unclear, then its efficiency is lost. This is clear, isn't it? I am not saying anything very strange, so please. I am going to say something very strange a little later on, so go into it. So the brain demands security. Then only it can function effectively, sanely, rationally. If there is any kind of uncertainty then its actions become neurotic. That's clear. So it must register. So when in relationship there is constant registration and remembrance, then relationship becomes a conflict because you are remembering your incidents, accidents, what has been accumulated, and the other is also doing the same, so the centre is being strengthened. Right? The 'me' is strengthened in me and in you. So the question is: is it possible only to register what is essentially important? What is important – not essentially, remove that word – what is absolutely important. Because as the brain demands security, it will find security in what is absolutely necessary. Right? It must have security in food, clothes and shelter – absolute – in technological knowledge and so on and so on. But what is the need of registering any other factor? You understand what I am saying? Please go into it with me, if you don't mind. Don't offer opinions and judgements, we are investigating. The brain is accustomed through millennia to register – my tribe, I live with my tribe I am safe, outside my tribe I am unsafe, outside my class, outside my group, outside my belief I am uncertain, there is fear. So the brain through millennia has developed this quality of registering because in that there is safety. Right? Now we are saying, is there safety in the registrations that are going on psychologically? You understand what I am saying? 因此,大脑是需要安全感的, 就像婴儿一样,它必须从一开始就拥有安全感, 否则它就会变得神经质, 各种各样的事就会发生在那个孩子身上。 那么,大脑在寻求安全感, 因为拥有安全感意味着它可以有效地运作。 如果它不确定、不清晰, 那么它就会丧失效能。 这很清楚,不是吗? 拜托,我并不是在说什么奇怪的事, 稍后我会说些相当奇怪的事, 所以去探究它。 因此大脑需要安全感。 只有这样它才能有效地运作, 理智而健全地运作。 如果存在任何的不确定性, 它的行动就会变得神经质。 这是很清楚的。 所以它必须记录。 因此,当关系中 存在着持续不断的记录和记忆时, 关系便成了一种冲突, 因为你在记住你的事件、意外, 这些你积累起来的东西, 而别人也在做着相同的事, 由此,中心就得到了强化。 对吗? 这个“我”在你我心中都被强化了。 那么,问题是: 是否可能只去记录实质上重要的事? 重要的东西——不是实质上,去掉那个词—— 那些绝对重要的东西。 因为既然大脑需要安全感, 它就会在绝对必要的事物中找到安全感。 对吗? 它必须在衣食住行中 ——绝对必要的事物—— 在科技知识等等中得到安全感。 可是,为什么还要去记录其他的东西呢? 你了解我在说什么吗? 请和我一起探究,如果你不介意的话。 不要提供意见和评判, 我们在探查。 大脑数千年来 习惯了去记录 ——我的宗族,我和我的宗族一同生活,我是安全的, 在我的宗族以外,我就不安全, 在我的阶层、我的群体、我的信仰以外 我觉得不踏实,便有了恐惧的存在。 所以大脑在历经数千年后, 已经发展出了记录的能力, 因为其中有安全感的存在。 对吗? 现在,我们问, 在对心理上发生事情的记录中,是否存在安全? 你了解我所说的吗?
39:23 Q: (Italian) 问:(意大利语)
39:26 K: Wait, one moment. Listen to me. I am going to go into it. 克:等等,稍等片刻,听我说。 我正要探讨这点。
39:37 Q: (Italian) 问:(意大利语)
39:47 K: Sir, I said please, for ten minutes listen to me to the very end and then you can jump on me as much as you like, but please listen to what I have to say first. Because you are disturbing, I am going on with something, let me finish to the end of it. I am not being impatient or trying to prevent you from talking, you'll have your opportunity afterwards. 克:先生,我说了拜托, 请听我说十分钟,等我说完之后 你可以批评我, 随你喜欢, 可是,请先听听我要说的东西。 因为你在干扰我,我正要继续说, 让我把它讲完。 我不是失去了耐心,或是试图阻止你说话, 稍后你会有机会说话的。
40:30 We are asking: is there security in registering all the psychological hurts, all the psychological fears in relationship, the attachments? So take one thing: in relationship psychologically we are hurt. Hurt, wounded from childhood. And the results of that hurt are violence, wanting to hurt others, or withdrawing not to be hurt anymore, and therefore isolating oneself, and being isolated act neurotically, and so on and so on. So I am looking at that one thing for the moment, which is that we hurt each other in our relationship. The more intimate it is, the more we get hurt. And is it possible not to be hurt at all? Which is, not to register the things said by another which may wound? You are following this? Do it in yourself as we are talking. In our intimate relationship with each other we say things casually, we say things rather brutally, you know, friction. And in that friction there is a great deal of hurt. Now we are asking, is it possible in that relationship with each other not to register and therefore not to be hurt? All right? 我们在问: 安全是否存在于 对所有心理伤害、 关系中所有的内心恐惧 以及依赖的记录之中? 我们拿一件事来说: 在关系中,我们心理上受伤了。 始于童年的伤痛。 而那份伤痛导致的结果便是暴力, 想要去伤害别人, 或是退避起来以免再次受伤, 由此孤立自己, 因为孤立,所以会有神经质的行为, 等等,等等。 那么,我就观察这一件事一会儿, 也就是,我们 在关系中伤害彼此的事实。 关系越是亲密,伤害就越深。 那么,是否可能完全不受伤呢? 也就是说,不去记录 别人所说的可能会使你受伤的事情? 这点你跟上了吗? 在我们谈话时,在你自己身上这么做吧。 在我们彼此间的亲密关系中, 我们说话漫不经心, 我们说话口无遮拦, 你知道的,摩擦。 在那摩擦中,会有很多的伤害。 现在,我们问, 在与别人的关系中,是否可能 不去记录,并由此不受伤害? 可以吗?
43:14 We are saying it is possible. And I will go into it. Don't say it is impossible and then block yourself. Right? We are going into it. Don't say it is not possible, or it is possible. We are moving together, like a river going round, going, moving, flowing and any difficulties that come we will go round it, but keep going. 我们认为这是可能的。 我会来探究它。 别说这是不可能的,那样就限制了你自己。 对吗? 我们这就来探讨。 别说这是不可能或可能的。 我们一起往前走, 就像一条河流四处环绕,流动, 川流不息,我们会绕过遇到的任何困难, 继续前行。
43:56 So we say it is possible not to register in relationship because love is not remembrance. Right? Love is not something that you say, 'Darling, you were so good to me the day before yesterday.' So love is not a thing of the past, a thing cultivated by thought, it is not a thing that can possibly happen when there is conflict in relationship. So we are trying to find out what is love, in relationship, in which there is no conflict. We are saying that it is possible only when you begin to understand yourself in relationship. In relationship there is hurt, many, many hurts. And those hurts can never heal completely because they are all the time happening. So, is it possible in relationship not to get hurt? Please, this is a tremendous question, you understand? We are saying it is possible. And it is possible only when there is the realisation, when there is the realisation, which means the observation that any form of registration in relationship psychologically is hurting, and it is essential to register at a certain level, not at the psychological level. When you see that, when you observe it, when you know it, then you don't register. Say for example, in our relationship I call you a fool, or you are terrible this morning, I want to read the newspaper and you come and take it away. I get irritated. 所以我们说,在关系中不去记录是可能的, 因为爱不是记忆。 对吗? 爱并不是你说 “亲爱的,你前天对我真好。” 因此,爱不是一件过去的事、 一件可以由思想来培育的事, 爱不可能发生在 关系里有冲突时, 因此我们在试着弄清什么是 关系中的爱,在这种关系中不存在冲突。 我们说,这种可能性只存在于 你开始在关系中了解你自身时。 关系中有伤痛, 许许多多的伤痛。 并且,那些伤痛永远也无法完全愈合, 因为它们一直在发生。 那么,在关系中是否有可能不被伤害呢? 拜托,这是一个极其重要的问题, 你了解吗? 我们认为这是可能的。 而这种可能性只存在于 有了领悟之时, 当有了领悟,也就是,观察到了 关系中任何心理上的记录 都会造成伤害, 在某些特定的层面上,记录是必要的, 但不是在心理层面上。 当你看到了这点, 当你观察到它,当你了解了它, 你就不会记录了。 举个例子,在我们的关系中,我称你为傻子, 或者今天早上你很糟糕, 我想要看报,你却过来把它拿走了。 我很恼火。
46:46 So at that moment, which is at the moment when you are being called a fool, or whatever you are, at that moment to be attentive. You understand? Attention implies, as we said the other day, there are three types which is concentration, awareness and attention. Concentration implies focusing with your whole energy on a certain point, therefore excluding, and there is constant resistance to other forms of thoughts coming in. We said choiceless awareness is to observe without any choice – we went into that. Now attention is when you attend completely, as I hope you are doing now, completely attentive, there is no centre. Right? Have you noticed it? So when another calls you an idiot in relationship, when you are so attentive it doesn't register. Don't ask, how am I to be so attentive. That is a silly question. There is no practice, there is no method, there is no system. But when you see the real importance, the truth of this fact, that any form of psychological registration will inevitably end in conflict and hurt, and all the rest of it, when you see the truth of it clearly, you don't register. Therefore at the moment when a person calls you an idiot when you are attentive there is no registration. Are you doing it? Will you do it? Not in the future, actually sitting next to your boyfriend, or your husband, wife, or whatever it is, see the whole machinery of it, not just a single part but the whole structure of this thing. 那么,在那个时刻, 也就是在那个你被唤作傻子 或者别的称呼的时刻, 在那一刻全神贯注。 你明白吗? 关注意味着,正如我们前些天说过的, 有三个类型, 也就是专注、觉知和关注。 专注是指把你的整个精力都集中在某一特定的点上, 因而是排他性的, 存在着对于其他形式的念头的持续抵抗。 我们说过,无选择的觉知就是不作选择地观察 ——我们探讨过那个了。 那么,关注就是指当你全神贯注, 恰如我现在希望你们做的, 完全地关注,这时中心是不存在的。 对吗?你注意到这点了吗? 因此,当别人在关系中叫你傻子, 当你如此关注时,大脑就不会记录。 别问我要如何才能这般关注。 那是一个愚蠢的问题。 没有练习,没有方法,没有体系。 然而,当你看到了其中真正的重要性, 看到这个事实的真相时, 也就是,任何形式的心理记录 都将不可避免地以冲突、伤痛以及等等这一切收场, 当你看清这个真相时, 你便不会记录了。 因此当有人叫你傻子,在那一刻, 当你如此关注时,就不会有记录。 你正在这么做吗? 你会这么做吗? 不是在未来,实际就坐在你男朋友身边, 或是你的丈夫、妻子,或者无论什么人身边时, 看到它的整个运作机制, 不仅仅看到一个单独的部分, 而是看到这件事的整个结构。
49:27 We said, registration is the means of acquiring security. It has sought security in the images that it has built in relationship, in the image. Right? That image ceases to exist when there is complete attention. 我们说过, 记录 是获取安全感的方式。 它一直寻求安全感 ——从它在关系中建立的各种形象之中, 在形象里寻求安全。 对吗? 当有完全的关注时,形象便不复存在了。
50:08 Now, wait a minute, the gentleman asked: what is it that divides that which is to be registered and that which is not to be registered. Right? Now, when you see the nature and the structure of relationship, what happens – right? – actually observe it with your heart, with your mind, with your blood, what happens out of that observation? There is not only attention there is intelligence, isn't there. No? Because you have seen something which is true. That is, when you are not attentive hurts begin, when you are attentive there is no image forming. If you see the truth of that, the perception of that is intelligence. You have an insight into it. You have insight into the nature of registration of the brain, and that insight you can only have when you are free to observe. That is, insight can only take place when there is emptiness, not your prejudices, your hopes, your fears. That intelligence says, this is where registration is necessary. Right? Therefore there is security for the brain in intelligence. 现在,等一等, 这位先生问过:是什么在区分 什么是要记录的以及什么是不要记录的。 对吗? 当你看到关系的本质和结构时, 会发生什么?对吗? 用你的心、你的头脑、你的血液去真切地观察它, 由那样的观察会带来什么呢? 不仅有关注,还有智慧,不是吗? 不是? 因为你已经看到某些真实的东西。 也就是说,当你不关注时,伤痛便开始了, 当你关注时,便没有形象的形成。 如果你看到了其中的真相, 对它的觉知就是智慧。 你有了一种对它的洞察。 你洞察到了大脑进行记录的本质, 而只有在你自由观察时,你才会拥有那种洞察。 也就是说,洞察只能发生在 空无一物的时候, 而非持有你的偏见、你的希望、你的恐惧时。 那份智慧说,这里是有必要记录的地方。 对吗? 因此,智慧中有大脑所需的安全感。
52:05 K: You understand?

Q: Yes.

K: Good. Nonverbally? I hope. Not verbally, but in your blood. It is like seeing something tremendously dangerous, it is finished, you don't approach it. In the same way when you see the extraordinary fact that hurts, all these conflicts exist between human beings because – I have said it all.
克:你明白吗?

问:是的。

克:很好。 我希望不是字面上明白了。 不是字面上,而是从你的血液里懂得了。 就像是看见某个极度危险的东西一样, 看见了就到此为止了,你不会再去靠近它。 同样的,当你看清了那些造成伤害的惊人事实, 所有这些冲突存在于人与人之间,是因为 这些我都已经说过了。
52:48 Q: (Inaudible) 问:(听不清)
53:12 K: What are you saying? I can't understand it. Has somebody understood it? Please repeat it if you have heard it right. 克:你在说什么? 我不明白。 有人听懂了吗? 如果你听对了,请重复一下。
53:28 Q: He is wondering about will in the hurts of relationship. 问:他想了解关系里的伤害中的意志。
53:35 K: Ah, will in relationship. I must do this and you want to do something else. Right? I want to become the chief executive of some business, and you want to do something else. Desire, which is the essence of will, pushes me in one direction and pushes you in another direction. That is one of the factors in relationship. No? But that's very simple. 克:噢,关系之中的意志。 我必须做这个而你想要做别的。 对吗? 我想要成为某个公司的首席执行官, 而你想要去做别的什么。 欲望,也就是意志的核心, 把我推向一个方向,把你推向另一个方向。 这是关系里的要素之一。不是吗? 可是这非常简单。
54:16 Q: It is not simple at all, not for me. 问:这一点也不简单,于我不简单。
54:21 K: Sir, it is very simple when you have got this intelligence. It is extraordinarily simple to understand the activity of will, which is the activity of desire. Please have an insight into it, not a verbal argument, saying, this is tremendously difficult, or not difficult, but have an insight into the whole movement of will, which is desire. I desire to play golf, to be a first-class golfer. My wife wants to be a social leader. And there is conflict between us. I want that, and she wants that. Now how will you avoid the conflict? To avoid the conflict, to wipe away all conflict you must understand desire, why there are separate desires. You are following this? Why you have a particular desire, and another a totally different desire. Desire being for an object, for a position, for an idea, for something. You have a desire for that, and she has a desire quite the opposite. If the two desires go together, both of us wish the same thing we think there is perfect harmony. But when there is contradiction between the two then there is trouble. And the gentleman says, this is one of the principal causes of conflict. 克:先生,当你有了这种智慧,那就非常简单了。 了解意志的活动极其简单, 也就是欲望的活动。 请洞察它,而不是口头上辩驳, 说这极其困难,或者不困难, 而是深入洞悉意志的整个活动, 也就是欲望。 我想要打高尔夫,成为一个一流的高尔夫球手。 我的妻子想要成为一名社会领袖。 于是,我们之间便有了冲突。 我想要这个而她想要那个。 那么,你将如何避免冲突? 为了避免冲突, 为了免去所有的冲突,你必须理解欲望, 为什么会有不同的欲望。 这点你跟上了吗? 为什么你会有一种特别的欲望, 而别人会有一种完全不同的欲望。 对一个目标的欲望,对一个职位的欲望, 对某个理念、对某种东西的欲望。 你对那个东西有欲望, 而她对相反的东西有欲望。 如果两种欲望正好齐头并进, 我们俩都期望着同样的东西,我们就认为存在着完美的和谐。 可是当两者之间有了矛盾,麻烦便出现了。 这位先生也说了, 这是冲突的主要成因之一。
56:47 Now, is desire different? The object of desire may vary. I may want a car, you may want a baby. And so there is conflict. But we are saying, is desire in itself different? You have understood? The objects of desire may vary – we will leave that – but is desire in itself different? Or is it essentially desire? If we understand what is the nature and the structure of desire, the essence of it, then what will happen? We will go into it. 那么,欲望有什么不同吗? 欲望的对象可能不一样。 我可能想要一辆车,你可能想要一个孩子。 于是,便有了冲突。 但是,我们问,欲望本身有什么不同吗? 你理解了吗? 欲望的目标可能会不同 ——我们暂不讨论这个—— 可是,欲望本身有什么不同吗? 还是,本质上它就是欲望? 如果我们了解了欲望的本质和结构是什么, 了解了它的实质,那么会发生什么? 我们来探究这些。
57:54 No, because I want to move to something else. We'll have patience. Is desire love? We said not. We were very clear on that matter when we talked about love. And the nature and the structure of desire, we went into it very carefully some time ago, during this gathering here. Which is, perception, seeing, contact, sensation. Then thought taking it over, making it into desire and creating the image which is to be fulfilled through the will of desire. This is simple, I am not going to go into all that. No, because there is something else we must talk about. 不,因为我想要讨论别的东西。 我们要有耐心。 欲望是爱吗? 我们说过不是。 我们对那一点已经说得非常清楚了 ——在我们讨论爱的时候。 还有欲望的本质和结构, 我们不久前非常细致地探讨过了, 就在这里的集会期间。 也就是,感知,看到,接触,感受。 然后,思想接管了, 将其变成欲望,并制造出形象, 这形象经由欲望的意志力得以实现。 这很简单,我不会再讲那些了。 不讲,因为还有别的内容是我们必须要讨论的。
58:54 So if we understand desire, really, basically, have an insight into desire, you will have your object and I will have mine, there will be no conflict. It is only when we don't understand desire fundamentally then there is conflict. Leave that alone. 那么,如果我们了解了欲望 ——真正地、从根本上了解, 能深入洞悉欲望的话, 那么你会有你的目标,我会有我的, 但不会有冲突。 只有在我们没有从根本上了解欲望时, 才会有冲突的存在。先别管这个了。
59:17 Now I want to go on into it. That is, we said registration in which thought has found security – the brain – now finds that psychologically there is no security at all, therefore there is no registration. But the discovery of that is intelligence. And in that intelligence there is complete security. Complete security. Have you got that intelligence after listening to all these talks, and words and words and words? Have you captured that intelligence, has that intelligence been awakened? 现在,我想继续探究下去。 那就是,我们谈到了记录, 在记录中思想找到了保障 ——大脑—— 现在发现根本不存在心理上的安全, 由此,便不再记录。 而那样的发现就是智慧。 并且,在那样的智慧中会有绝对的安全。 彻底的安全。 你是否已经有了那样的智慧,在聆听了所有的这些谈话 以及一段又一段的词句之后? 你是否已经捕捉到了那样的智慧, 那样的智慧是否已经被唤醒了?
1:00:27 And that intelligence can only be awakened when there is an observation which is to observe freely, without any distortion, without any motive in relationship, to observe. Out of that comes intelligence. So intelligence gives complete security, therefore it registers what is necessary and what is not necessary. So we are saying then, is love a remembrance? Right? Is love something to be thought about? Or can love be cultivated by thought? We said no. And that is fairly simple, everyone agrees to that. Then what place has love in relationship? If love is not desire, if love is not the pursuit of pleasure, then what is love in relationship? Go on, work it out, sirs. Would you ask that question when there is that sense of love? The problem is this: you have that love, which is not desire, which is not pleasure, etc., which is the essence of intelligence. I wonder if you see it. Suppose you have that extraordinary essence of intelligence, which is love, and I haven't got it. In our relationship – fortunately or unfortunately I am married to you – and you have got it, I haven't got it, then what is our relationship? You understand my question? No? 唤醒那样的智慧只能发生于 能够自由观察的时候, 关系中没有任何歪曲 和动机, 只是去观察的时侯。 从中就会出现那份智慧。 智慧能带来绝对的安全, 所以它会记录需要记录的,也知道什么是不必记录的。 那么,我们问,爱是一种记忆吗? 对吗? 爱是可以拿来思考的东西吗? 或者,爱可以由思想培育吗? 我们说过不可以。 这相当简单,每个人对此都同意。 那么,爱在人际关系里处于什么位置呢? 如果爱不是欲望, 如果爱不是对欢愉的追求, 那么关系中的爱是什么呢? 继续,解答它,先生们。 当有爱的那种感觉时,你会问那样的问题吗? 问题是这样的:你拥有那种爱, 它不是欲望,也不是欢愉,等等, 而是智慧的精华。 我想知道你是否明白了。 假设你拥有那份非同寻常的 智慧的精华,也就是爱,而我还没有得到它。 在我们的关系中 ——幸运或不幸地,我与你结婚了—— 你拥有了这份爱,可我还没有,那么,我们的关系是什么呢? 你理解我的问题吗? 不?
1:03:21 Q: I would like to ask a question. 问:我想要问一个问题。
1:03:25 K: It is raining very heavily. 克:现在雨下得很大。
1:03:30 Q: I really appreciate these talks and discussions. And in discussing, is there also a logical principal still valid? That everyone can find out for himself if there is some truth in what you have said, or not. Or is it just the principle that one has to suffer in life when one doesn't live truthfully? Or is there also in the words a logical principal? Like, I had some logical questions that may seem almost insane, Like asking you or somebody else if you could imagine that I, for instance, am there if you are not there. 问:我非常欣赏这些谈话和讨论。 那么在讨论中,是否也有个逻辑原则仍然是有效的? 也就是每个人自己可以去发现 你所说的是不是包含了某些真理。 或者它就是一个法则,那就是当我们没有如实地生活, 我们就必然会在生活中受苦? 又或者,这些文字之中是不是也有个逻辑原则? 例如,我曾有一些逻辑上的问题,它们可能听起来近乎疯狂, 比如问你或者别人:如果你不在那个地方, 你能否想象一下——比如说——我在那个地方。
1:04:19 K: No sir, this is all theoretical. 克:不,先生,这全是理论。
1:04:22 Q: Do you not understand this? 问:你没有理解这个问题吗?
1:04:23 K: Yes. This has been an old question, I know this. But we are not discussing that at the moment, if you don't mind. What we are talking about is, when there is that quality of love which is not desire, which is not merely pleasure, then what is the action of that love in relationship? Which is, we said, in relationship each one is concerned with himself. Right? 克:我理解。这已经是一个老问题了,我知道这个。 可我们现在没有讨论那个问题,如果你不介意的话。 我们在讨论的是, 当有了那种品质的爱时, 它不是欲望,它不仅仅是欢愉, 那么,那种爱在关系中会有什么行动? 我们曾说过,在关系中,每个人都关心自己。 对吗?
1:04:59 Q: Compassion. 问:慈悲。
1:05:08 K: No, wait sir. Don't jump to anything, don't jump to any conclusion. Don't use words yet. We said in relationship you discover what you are. Your reactions, your pride, your envy, your this, and that. And through relationship you begin to dissolve all that. Then you are beginning to understand yourself as deeply as possible, because in relation it shows it. And you begin to realise that where there is attention there is no registration. We went through that. And then the problem arises, what is love in this relationship? Right? If there is no desire, if there is no pursuit of pleasure in this relationship, what is then relationship? You understand? Go on, sir, think it out. I am not going to think it all out for you and then you accept it or reject it. Go into it – I love you. 克:不,等等先生。 不要跳到任何东西上去,也别跳到任何结论上。 暂时不要使用文字。 我们曾说过,在关系里你会发现你真实的样子。 你的反应,你的骄傲,你的嫉妒,你的这和那。 并且,通过关系,你开始消解那一切。 然后,你开始尽可能深入地了解你自己, 因为,在关系中它会展现它自己。 然后,你开始认识到 有关注的地方,就没有记录。 我们已经探讨过那点了。 然后,问题出来了,在这样的关系里,爱是什么呢? 对吗? 在这个关系里,如果没有欲望, 如果没有对欢愉的追求, 那么,关系是什么呢? 你理解吗? 继续先生,把它想清楚。 我不会为你思考这一切 然后你去接受或拒绝。 去深入探究它——什么是“我爱你”?
1:06:38 Q: Attention. 问:关注。
1:06:42 K: Oh, gee whillikins. Not attention, madame, we have gone into that. I love you – do watch yourself, you love somebody, don't you? You love somebody and that love is not controlled by desire, that love is not the pursuit of pleasure – we went into all this before. Then what is the relationship between two human beings, man, woman, when there is this love? 克:噢。 不是关注,女士,我们已经探究过那个了。 “我爱你”——务必观察你自己,你爱着某个人,不是吗? 你爱着某个人, 并且,那份爱 不是由欲望所掌控, 那份爱也不是对欢愉的追求 ——这些我们之前都探讨过了。 那么介于两个人,男人,女人之间的关系是什么, 当有了这样的爱?
1:07:43 Q: It is not self-centred and therefore not apart, it is whole. 问:爱不是以自我为中心进而相互分离的,它是一个整体。
1:07:49 K: That is a conclusion, that's a theory. The lady says, there is no centre therefore we are one. Is that it? You see none of you – forgive me for saying this – none of you do it, go into it. 克:那是一个结论,那是一个理论。 这位女士说,没有中心的存在,因此我们都是一体的。 是那样的吗? 你看,你们没人——原谅我这么说—— 你们没人这么做,没人探究它。
1:08:17 Q: How do you know?

K: How do I know? If you did it you wouldn't be here.
问:你怎么知道?

克:我怎么知道? 如果你已经这么做了,你就不会在这儿了。
1:08:23 Q: Not necessarily. 问:不一定。
1:08:27 Q: You're here. 问:你也在这里。
1:08:35 K: God, it's raining hard, isn't it? I hope you have got warm clothes afterwards. 克:天哪,雨下得很大,不是吗? 我希望结束谈话后,你们有温暖的衣服可以添加。
1:08:49 We are asking: what is the place of this quality of love in relationship? Do you understand? We said there is the operation of intelligence, the awakening of intelligence, which is the essence of love, right? And this intelligence is also compassion. This intelligence is also clarity, which we talked about. And also this intelligence acts skilfully. Skilfully – got the meaning of it now? You are understanding it? Not this. 我们问: 这种品质的爱在关系之中有什么样的位置? 你了解吗? 我们说过,有智慧的运作, 智慧的觉醒, 也就是爱的本质,对吗? 并且,这种智慧同时也是慈悲。 这种智慧同时也是清明, 这些我们谈过了。 同时,这种智慧会很有技巧地行动。 有技巧地去行动 ——现在明白它的意思了吗? 你理解这点了吗? 不是这样。
1:09:54 Q: Like a river.

K: That's all. You understand? Go into it for yourself, you will see this extraordinary thing that will happen in your life if you do it. Not verbally, not theoretically, not come to some conclusion, but actually have an insight into all this. And you can only have insight when there is freedom, psychological freedom, freedom from choice, freedom from direction so that you can look.
问:就像一条河流。

克:就是那样。 你明白吗? 自己去探究它, 你会发现这件非同寻常的事 会在你的生活中发生——如果你那么做的话。 不是口头上,不是理论上,也不是得出某个结论, 而是真正地洞察这一切。 然而,只有当自由存在时,你才会具有洞察力, 心理上的自由, 摆脱了选择的自由, 摆脱了目的性的自由,由此你才可以观察。
1:10:34 So we talked about compassion, clarity, and skill. We said, in that quality of love there is intelligence, right? Intelligence is compassion, isn't it? Because you can't have compassion without clarity. So in one's relationship with another, when there is compassion – love, compassion, intelligence, clarity – you will act in most excellent skill in relationship. I wonder if you see this. Do you see it, or is it all Greek still? 所以,我们已经讨论了慈悲、 清明,以及技能。 我们说过,在那种爱的品质里存在着智慧,对吗? 智慧就是慈悲,不是吗? 因为,没有清明你就无法拥有慈悲。 因此,在我们与别人的关系里, 当慈悲存在时, ——也就是爱、慈悲、智慧、清明—— 你就会以最完美的技巧 在关系中行动。 我想知道这点你是否看到了。 你明白了吗?还是说它依然是天方夜谭?
1:11:42 As we said, we have great skill, we have acquired enormous skill in every direction: in the air, in the sea, on the earth, skill in being cunning in our relationship – right? – deceptive, hypocritical, act in a skilful manner to avoid getting hurt, getting my own way and hoping you will follow me and therefore not creating conflict. We have learned all this. But that skill is not out of clarity. That skill only emphasises the more 'me'. We went into that. 如我们所言,我们拥有卓越的技术, 我们在各个领域都已经得到了 大量的技术:在天上,在海里,在陆地上, 在我们的关系里,技巧就是狡猾——对吗? 欺骗、虚伪, 用一种技巧性的方式来行动,从而避免受到伤害, 从而能随我所愿, 并且,希望你会跟从我,由此便不会制造冲突。 我们都熟知这一切。 可是,那种技巧不是出自于清明。 那种技巧只会强调更多的 “自我”。 我们探讨过那些了。
1:12:42 So see what takes place. Just briefly I will go into it, what takes place logically. We said you can know yourself without distortion by observing what is outside, what is happening in the world. And from the world move inwardly, and then whatever you see will be correct because you have learned to observe correctly, truthfully, accurately, what is going on around you. So in observing yourself, one of the major factors in relationship is conflict: hurt, expression of will, desire. Getting hurt, conflict, and each one desiring his own particular way or her way. Now all that emphasises separation, division. So wherever there is division created by will, created by idea, created by desire, objects of different desires, pursuit of particular ideology, divides people, and therefore there is tremendous conflict. My wife may be Catholic, and I may not be Catholic, and there is conflict. I want her to become non-Catholic and she wants to make me Catholic, so there is battle. 那么,看看会发生什么。 我只会简短地从逻辑上说说会发生什么。 我们说过,你可以不做歪曲地了解你自己, 通过观察外在的事物,观察这个世界所发生的事。 并且,从外在世界转入内在世界, 然后,你观察到的任何东西都会是正确的, 因为你已经学会了去正确地、真实地、准确地观察 发生在你四周的事物。 那么在观察你自己的过程中,关系中主要的要素之一 就是冲突: 伤害,意愿的表达,欲望。 受到伤害, 冲突, 每一个人都想按他或她自己特定的方式行事。 那么,那一切都在强调分离、分裂。 因此,凡是有分裂的地方 ——这分裂由意志、观念、欲望所造—— 各种不同欲望的目标, 对特定意识形态的追求 分裂了人群, 因而就会有巨大的冲突。 我的妻子可能是天主教徒,我可能不是天主教徒, 冲突便存在了。 我想要她变成非天主教徒,而她想让我变成天主教徒, 由此便有了战争。
1:14:54 So we said, the brain registers because in registration there is security. And the security it has created is in the image that we have made about each other. And because there is the image of each other, which is different, there is conflict. So we are having an insight into oneself, through relationship. That insight can only take place when there is freedom and emptiness to look. You can't look if your mind, if your brain is full of prejudices, this and that. So there must be emptiness to look. That is, the observer ceases to be. We have gone into all that. 那么,我们说过 大脑会记录, 因为,记录里存在安全感。 而它所创造的安全感 存在于我们给彼此制造的形象里。 又因为有着彼此形象的存在, 不同形象的存在,冲突便应运而生。 然而,通过关系,我们正在洞察我们自身。 那种洞察只有在 观察的自由和空间存在时才会发生。 如果你的心灵,如果你的大脑充斥着偏见, 充斥着这和那,你就无法观察。 因此,必须空无才能观察。 换言之,不再有观察者的存在。 我们已经探究了那一切。
1:16:07 So we said non-registration psychologically is possible only when there is that intelligence. That intelligence comes about when there is an insight, right? So that intelligence registers what is necessary and what is not necessary. 我们说过心理上的零记录只可能发生于 那种智慧存在时。 当有了洞察时,那种智慧便会出现,对吗? 那么,智慧就会记录哪些是必要的, 哪些是不必要的。
1:16:27 Then we went into the question of what is love. Is love desire, etc.? If it is not, then love is intelligence in relationship. Right? And that intelligence is part of compassion. And that compassion can only be when there is clarity. Clarity which comes through freedom, and freedom of observation and insight. And compassion, clarity, will function with great skill in relationship. Right? 然后,我们探究了什么是爱这个问题。 爱是欲望吗?等等。 如果爱不是欲望, 那么在关系里,爱就是智慧。 对吗? 并且,那种智慧就是慈悲的一部分。 而且,只有当清明存在时,慈悲才会存在。 清明源于自由, 观察和洞悉的自由。 并且,慈悲、清明 在关系之中都会以极佳的技巧来运作。 对吗?
1:17:27 Now have you, at the end of all these talks and dialogues – if we had dialogues, we haven't had dialogues at all, the speaker has talked all the time, but we must do it differently next year if we are here – we will be here. Now at the end of all this, where are we? Have we together taken the journey, together all the way, flowing together, passing, like a river that passes obstacles, goes round it, have we moved that way? Or are we still part of the bank and looking at the river? You understand what I am saying? Are we sitting comfortably on the bank with our ideas, with our hopes, with our securities, etc., and watching the river go by? Which is it that we are doing? To be part of the river, to flow with the river you must leave the bank, naturally. I wonder – please don't answer – I wonder how many are flowing with all this. Then it becomes very important that there isn't only one speaker like me. You understand? It becomes very important that you come and sit here instead of me. That you become the one that is enlightened, who has clarity, compassion, skill. Because the world is getting madder and madder, insane, and some of you must go psychologically through tremendous revolution to come and sit here and talk, go outside. Will you do all this? Or we are too old? So at the end of this talk... 现在,在这些讨论和对话的尾声 ——如果我们有过对话的话——我们还未曾有过任何对话, 是讲话者一直在说, 可是明年如果我们还在这里的话,我们必须换种方式 ——我们会在这里的。 现在,在这一切的尾声,我们现在身处何处? 我们是否一同经历了这次旅行, 一路相伴, 一同流动, 一路经过,就像河流经过各种障碍物, 它绕过了那些障碍, 我们是那样流动的吗? 还是说,我们依旧是河岸的一部分,只是注视着河流? 你理解我所说的吗? 我们是否舒适地坐在岸边,怀揣着我们的想法、 我们的希望、我们的安全感,等等, 同时注视着流淌的河流? 这就是我们在做的吗? 为了成为河流的一部分, 为了与河流一同流动,你必须离开河岸, 这很自然。 我想知道——请不要回答—— 我想知道有多少人是与这一切一同流动的。 那么,非常重要的就是 不是只有一个像我这样的讲话者。 你理解吗? 重要的是你来坐在这里 而不是我。 也就是你彻悟了, 拥有了清明、慈悲、技巧。 因为,这个世界正变得愈发疯狂, 而你们中的一些人必须经历心理上的 重大革命才能坐在这里谈话、才能出去演讲。 你们会做这一切吗? 还是说,我们已经太老了? 那么,在这场谈话的尾声
1:20:19 Q: (Inaudible) 问:(听不清)
1:20:26 K: It's too late. What is the time? I must stop. I can't talk any more. So I hope – not hope – that you have walked along together, together we have walked very far. Not stopped half way and say, well, it is too difficult, I don't understand, I must understand him, not myself. You know that game we play with each other, and play with lots of ideas and cunning logic and all that. Dropping all that, have we gone very far together? 克:现在太晚了。几点了? 我必须停下了。我不能再讲了。 那么,我希望——不是希望——你们在这场旅行中并肩前行, 我们已经一起走得非常远了。 不要半途而废,然后说,算了,这太难了, 我不理解, 我必须理解他,而不是我自己。 你们都知道,我们彼此玩的这种游戏, 我们玩弄着大量的观念、狡猾的逻辑等等诸如此类。 丢弃了那一切,我们是否已经一起走得很远了?