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SA77T2 - 在心理的权威中,有保障的存在吗?
公开讲座 2
萨能, 瑞士
1977年 7月 12日



0:20 Krishnamurti: May we go on with what we were talking about yesterday morning? I hope you aren't too hot. 克里希那穆提:我们能继续 昨天早上谈论的话题吗? 我希望你们不会太热。
0:47 We were concerned in the last talk about the awakening of intelligence, that intelligence which is not yours or mine. We arrived at that point logically, sanely, and holistically. We said that all thought – however divine the thought may be, or it may think itself totally divine – is still the movement of the past: the past being experience, knowledge, stored up in the brain as memory. And our lives are dictated by the past. Thought tries to find security in the things that it has created – we talked about that – that is, in belief, in ideological, philosophical projections, in conclusions which invariably are the result of an experience retained by memory and making them more and more definite. I hope we are communicating with each other about all these matters. 在上一次谈话里,我们探讨了 智慧的觉醒, 那智慧并不属于你或我。 我们逻辑清晰地、明智地、整体地探究到了那一点。 我们说,所有的思想 ——无论思想可能有多么神圣, 或者它认为自己是完全神圣的—— 它都仍旧是过去的运动: 过去就是经历、知识, 以记忆的形式储存在大脑里。 我们的生活是被过去所主宰的。 思想试图在它所创造的事物中找到安全 ——我们已经谈过那个了—— 也就是,在信仰里, 在意识形态和哲学化的投射里, 以及在结论里——结论无一例外都是 由记忆所维持的经验的结果, 并且使得这些结论愈来愈确定。 我希望我们正在与彼此交流着 所有的这些事情。
2:51 We said also that thought can never solve our human problems, psychological problems. It may solve the problems of food, shelter and so on – physical comforts for the whole of mankind. But that's not possible when there is nationalistic, ideological divisions, which we've talked about that too. So we are concerned with the desire to be secure, psychologically as well as physiologically, and in that desire to be secure we create all kinds of illusions, which we talked about. Illusions in the future, there is the old theory that God, divinity, descends on earth and helps man to grow, to evolve, to live nobly. That is the old tradition of the countries in the East, and also in a different way in the West. In that there is a great deal of comfort, a great deal of feeling that you are at least secure in something, that there is somebody who is looking after you and the world. This is a very old theory and you know all about it. It has no meaning whatsoever. Because the future, whether the teachings are the future or for some kind of utopian outlook for the future, is made by the present, obviously. What one is now, unless there is a radical transformation, the future is a modified continuity of 'what is'. We talked about that. 而我们也说了:思想 永远不可能解决我们人类的问题, 那些心理上的难题。 它可能会解决 食物、住房等等问题, 为人类带来身体上的舒适。 可是,当有了国家主义、意识形态的分裂,那便不可能了, 这我们也已经讨论过了。 因此,我们谈到了那种想要安全的欲望, 既包括心理上的安全,也包括生理上的安全, 而在那种想要安全的欲望中, 我们创造出了各种各样的幻想, 我们已经讨论过这个了。 对未来的种种幻想, 有种古老的理论说,上帝、神明会降临到地球上, 来帮助人类成长、进化、高尚地生活。 那是东方国家的古老传统, 西方也有,只不过稍有不同。 在那之中,有着一种巨大的慰藉, 有种强烈的感受:你至少可以在某些东西中得到安全, 有某个人在照看着你和这个世界。 这种一种非常古老的理论,你们对此都很熟悉。 但它是没有任何意义的。 因为未来 ——不管那些教导是不是属于未来的, 还是为了未来的某种乌托邦式的展望—— 很显然,未来是被当下塑造出来的。 你现在是什么,除非有一种彻底的转变, 否则,未来就是“现状”稍加修改以后的延续。 我们讨论过这个了。
5:23 To realise that the things that thought has put together, in those, there is no security whatsoever. I wonder how many of us really understand this. How many of us have gone into it sufficiently, intelligently, rationally and sanely to find out for ourselves if there is really any structure, either in the future, or in the past, or in the present, if there is any structure whatsoever, philosophical, religious, or ideological or economic, whether there is any kind of security in that. To find that out there must not only be the clear thinking, logically, sanely, rationally, objectively, but also that very thinking, that very reasoning, if it is pursued very deeply begins the awakening of that intelligence we talked about yesterday. 要认识到在那些思想堆砌起来的事物中, 是不存在任何安全的。 我想知道我们中有多少人真正明白了这一点。 我们中有多少人已经充分探究了这点? 智慧、理性而明智地探究, 亲自去发现是否在任何结构中 ——不管是在未来、过去还是现在, 在任何结构中 ——无论是哲学、宗教、意识形态还是经济结构, 在那些结构中是否有任何安全可言。 为了查明这一点, 我们必须不仅仅有清晰的思考, 逻辑的、明智的、理性的、客观的思考, 同样的,对于那种思考和理性本身, 如果你对它深入探究的话, 就会开始唤醒我们昨天谈到的 那种智慧。
6:58 Also, thought seeks security in authority. There is the authority of the surgeon, and there is the authority of tradition, the guru, the bishop, the pope and so on. They are the two authorities well established in the world. The authority of the dictator, the totalitarian authority and all that. We must go into this very carefully because we are going to find out if there is any kind of security in authority – religious, economic or psychological. 同时,思想也在权威中寻求安全。 我们有外科医生的权威、 传统的权威、 宗教领袖、主教、教皇等等的权威。 它们是这个世界上两类根深蒂固的权威。 独裁者的权威, 极权主义的权威,等等。 我们必须非常小心地探究这个问题, 因为我们要去查明, 在权威中是否存在任何安全? ——不管是宗教上的、经济上的还是心理上的权威。
7:59 It's pretty hot, isn't it. 天气真热,不是吗?
8:12 We accept very easily the path that is the most satisfying, the most convenient, the most pleasurable. It's very easy to move into that groove. And authority dictates, lays down religiously and psychologically a system, a method by which, or through which you will find security. This is well known. And so we are going to go into this question whether there is any kind of psychological authority, apart from technological, medicine and so on, if there is any kind of psychological authority whatsoever. Because if we see that there isn't any security in any authority, including the speaker's, then we are going to find out whether it is possible to live without any guidance, without any control, without any effort. This is asking a tremendous lot. We are educated, conditioned to accept authority because that's the most convenient and the easiest way to live. Put all our faith, all our trust in somebody, or in some idea, or in some conclusion, or in some teaching, and give ourselves to that hoping that we shall find some deep satisfaction, deep security. The guru, the teachings have done all the work and you just have to follow. An intelligent person, fairly aware, awakened in the normal sense, objects to that, totally. Living in a free country like this where there is freedom of speech you would object tremendously to a totalitarian state, but you would accept the authority of psychologists, the guru, the teachings that will promise you something marvellous in the future, but not now, you'd accept all that because it's very satisfactory. So we are going to demolish all that – if you are willing. Otherwise you will not be able to awaken that intelligence of which we are talking about 我们非常轻易地接受了 那条最令人满足的道路, 那条最方便、最令人愉快的道路。 进入那个窠臼是非常容易的。 然后权威便会命令我们, 设定宗教上和心理上的体系、 方法,你可以借助或通过它们来找到安全感。 这是众所周知的。 所以我们这就来探讨这个问题: 是否存在任何心理上的权威? 除了科技上、医学上的权威等等, 是否存在任何心理上的权威? 因为,如果我们认识到在任何权威中 ——包括讲话者的权威——都不存在安全时, 那时我们就会去查明 是否可能过一种没有任何指引的生活, 没有任何控制, 也没有任何努力。 这确实是非常高的要求。 我们被教育着、制约着去接受权威, 因为那是最方便、最简单的生活方式。 把我们所有的信念、所有的信任都投注于某人身上, 或是投注于某个思想里、某个结论中, 又或是某种教导里, 然后将自己献给它,希望我们能够由此找到 某种深刻的满足和安全感。 宗教领袖、那些教导已经完成了一切工作, 你只需要跟随即可。 而一个在通常意义上智慧的、高度觉察的、觉醒的人, 他会完全反对这种做法。 生活在这样一个自由的国家里, 这里有言论自由, 你会极力反对一个极权政府, 然而你却接受了心理学家的权威, 接受了古鲁、教义的权威,它们承诺 可以在未来给你带来某种美好的东西, 但不是现在, 你会对其全盘接受,因为那是非常令人满意的。 而我们要做的是拆毁这一切 ——如果你愿意的话。 否则,你将无法 唤醒我们所谈的那种智慧。
12:01 So where there is authority, psychologically, there is conformity. To conform to the pattern set by another through various sanctions or the authority of your own which you have experienced, which you have felt and from that conclude and have security in that conclusion. So is there any security in psychological authority, in any teaching? In any teaching including the speaker's teachings, the so-called various religious teachings and the top gurus, all that stuff. So is there any security in all that? And yet if you observe, millions and millions are following that path, that way of thinking, hoping eventually some day, in some future life, or somewhere there is going to be security. We are going to question and ask ourselves if in it, there is any kind of truth. 哪里有心理上的权威,哪里便会有遵从。 去遵从别人通过各种条规设下的模式, 或者遵从你自己的权威——那些你经验过的东西, 你的感受, 并由此得出结论,然后在那个结论中得到安全。 那么,心理权威中是否存在任何安全, 任何教导中可有安全存在? 任何的教导 ——也包括讲话者的教导, 所谓的各种宗教教导, 顶级宗教领袖,等等这些。 在这一切中,是否存在任何的安全? 然而,如果你去观察,你便会发现, 千千万万的人正跟随着这条道路, 跟随着这种思维方式,希望最终会有一天, 在某个来生或者某处 将会有安全存在。 我们要质疑并询问我们自己: 这种想法是否具有任何的真实性。
13:48 We are working together. We are exploring together. We are really thinking out this problem together, so that I am not thinking and you are merely listening, but we are sharing the thing together to find out the truth of this enormous weight that man has carried hoping thereby to find somewhere some security and happiness. So please, it is your responsibility as well as the speaker's to go into this question very, very carefully, to find out whether one can live a daily life, a non-conforming life, a non-imitative life, not following any particular tradition, because if you have got a tradition, a sanction, a pattern, you will invariably conform to that, consciously, or unconsciously. So we are asking whether it is possible for a human being, fairly awake, fairly intellectually alive, seeing the problems of the world, because the world is based on this, on authority, whether the authority of Lenin or Marx, or... the authority of some extraordinary self-assuming guru. 我们将一同努力, 一同探索。 我们真的是一同在思考这个问题, 所以不是我一个人在思考,而你只是听我讲, 而是我们在一同分担这件事, 来发现人类所背负重担的真相, 希望由此可以在某处找到某种安全与幸福。 所以,请注意,这既是你的责任,也是讲话者的责任, 那就是非常非常仔细地去探究这个问题, 去发现人是否可以过这样一种日常生活, 一种没有遵从的生活, 一种不模仿的生活, 不去跟随任何特定的传统。 因为,如果你有了一种传统、 一套条令、一种模式的话, 你就必然会去遵循它, 有意识或无意识地遵循它。 因此,我们问道: 对一个高度清醒、心智活跃的人而言, 他能否看到这个世界的问题? 因为,这个世界是基于权威之上的, 无论是列宁、马克思的权威,还是 某些奇怪的自称为“古鲁”的人的权威。
15:54 We are going to investigate into this, so the mind can be free to find out the truth of this matter, so that you never, under any circumstances, conform to any pattern – psychologically. When you are conforming to a pattern, religious, psychological, or the pattern which you have set out for yourself, there is always a contradiction, the pattern and what you are. The pattern and what you actually are, and so there is always a conflict. And this conflict is endless. If you haven't got one pattern you go to another pattern. We are educated in the field of conflict because we have got ideals, we have got patterns, we have got conclusions, beliefs and so on. So there is always conflict when there is any kind of pattern. The pattern which you have created for yourself, or the pattern given by some so-called illumined person. An illumined person, if he is at all illumined, will never have a pattern – right? If you have a pattern you are never free, if you have a pattern you don't know what compassion is. If you have a pattern you are always battling, and therefore giving importance to yourself, then the self becomes extraordinarily important, the idea of self-improvement. 我们来探究这个问题, 于是心可以自由地找出这件事的真相, 进而无论在任何环境下,你都绝对不会 遵循于任何 心理上的模式了。 当你在遵循一个模式时 ——无论是宗教的、心理上的模式, 还是你为自己设定的模式—— 总是会有一种矛盾存在 ——模式和你真实模样之间的矛盾。 模式和你实际样子的矛盾, 因此总是存在一种冲突。 而这种冲突是无止境的。 如果你没有进入这种模式,你便会进入另一种模式。 我们在冲突的氛围中被教育长大, 因为我们有了理想,有了模式, 我们有了结论、信仰等等东西。 因此当有任何一种模式存在时,冲突就肯定会存在。 那个模式是你为自己创造的, 或者是某个所谓的“开悟人士”教给你的。 那个“开悟之人”,如果他真的觉悟了, 就绝不会持有一种模式, 对吗? 如果你有模式,你就永远无法自由; 如果你有模式,你就不会懂得什么是慈悲; 如果你有模式,你就会一直争斗, 由此而强调了你自己, 然后自我就会变得异乎寻常的重要, 你会想着要去提升自己。
18:34 So, is it possible to live without a pattern. The pattern being tradition, a conclusion, an ideal, a future assumption that there is a divinity which will help you in the future to evolve and so on, all that business. How are you going to find out the truth of this? Not accept what the speaker is saying but for yourself as a human being, who is the total representative of all mankind, how are you going to find out the truth of this matter? Because if your consciousness is changed radically, profoundly – no, revolutionised rather than changed – then you affect the consciousness of the whole of mankind. Please see this! If your consciousness, which is the consciousness of man – not the European man or the Chinese man, but a human being – when there is a radical transformation in that consciousness then you affect the whole consciousness of mankind, which is a fact. Stalin affected the whole of mankind. So has Hitler. The various preachers, or prophets, or priests have affected the whole of the consciousness of mankind. The whole Christian world is affected by the dictums, beliefs, rituals of a Catholic structure, the whole of the European world is modified and continued in that structure. Please see the truth of this, then you become tremendously responsible, then you are not just worrying a little bit about your own particular little worry, whether you have a little sex, or no sex, or should smoke, or not smoke, all those kinds of petty little affairs. 所以,是否可能没有模式地生活? 模式是传统,是一个结论、一种理想、 一种对未来的假设, 也就是说,有一个神明会在未来帮助你 成长进化等等。 你将如何查明这其中的真相? 不要接受讲话者所说的, 而是你自己,作为人类的一员, 你代表了全人类, 你将如何查明这件事的真相? 因为如果你的意识彻底地、深刻地改变了 ——不是改变,而是发生了一场革命—— 那么你就能影响全人类的意识。 请看到这一点! 如果你的意识 ——也就是人类的意识, 不是欧洲人或中国人的意识,而是人类的意识—— 如果那个意识发生了彻底的转变, 那么你便会影响整个人类的意识, 这是事实。 斯大林曾影响了全人类, 希特勒也是。 各种传教士、先知或牧师 都对人类的整体意识产生了影响。 整个基督教世界都被 天主教体系中的箴言、信仰和仪式所影响, 整个欧洲世界都是 那种体系中的修改和延续。 请看到这个事实, 然后你就会变得极度负责, 你就不会只是担忧 你自己的那一点点琐碎的烦恼, 比如你是否可以有点性生活,还是不能有性生活, 是应该吸烟,还是不吸烟, 所有那些琐碎的小事。
21:24 We are going to see, investigate together, whether there is a life in which there is not a spark of authority. How are we going to investigate it? Because all our educated background, consciously, or unconsciously, is bound by this tradition of obedience – '0bey!' They know better than you do, therefore the wise, the aristocracy of the wise is the salvation of the foolish. It's the good old... You have heard about this. So, how are we going to go into this problem? Which is your problem, a human problem. With what capacity do you investigate? Investigation implies the mind must be free of cause and effect. To investigate there must be freedom from motive. No? I want to investigate into the question of authority. My background says you must obey, you must follow. And in the process of investigation my background is always projecting, is always distorting my investigation. So can I be free of my background so that it doesn't interfere in any way in my investigation? My urgency to investigate, to find the truth, my urgency, my immediacy, my demand to find out the truth of it puts the background in abeyance, because my intensity is so strong to find out, the background doesn't interfere. The background is so strong: my education, my conditioning is so intense, it has accumulated for centuries, consciously I can't fight it, I can't push it aside, I can't battle with it. I have no time to take it through analysis, step by step. Life is too short. So my very intensity to find out the truth of authority makes my background much further away. It is not impinging on my mind. Do you see that? It is reasonable, isn't it? It is logical, it is sane. To fight the background intensifies the background. But the urgency to find out the truth of authority, the urgency, because it is tremendously important to discover the truth because then there is a freedom to look, to investigate, to find out. I hope I am not pushing you through my intensity. 我们将一起去看、去探究, 是否存在一种生活, 在那种生活中没有任何一点权威。 我们要如何来探究? 因为我们所有的教育背景——有意识的或无意识的—— 都是被这种顺从的传统所束缚的, ——“你要顺从!” 他们懂的比你多,因此有智慧的人, 智者中的精英就是愚昧者的救赎。 古话就是这么说的……你们应该都听过这样的话。 那么,我们该如何探讨这个问题呢? 这是你的问题,人类的问题。 你将以什么样的能力来探究呢? 探究意味着 心必须脱离原因和结果。 探究必须没有动机。 不是吗? 我想要去探究关于权威的问题。 可我的背景说,你必须顺从、你必须跟随。 而就在我探究的过程中,我的背景一直在投射, 一直在扭曲着我的探究。 那么,我能摆脱我的背景吗? 这样它就不会再以任何方式来干扰我的探究了。 我迫切地想要去探究,去查明真相, 我对于找出其中真相的 迫切性、紧急性以及需要 让背景失效了, 因为我想要去查明的热情是如此强烈, 以致于背景无法干涉我。 背景是如此的强大: 我的教育,我的局限是如此的强大, 它们已经累积了数个世纪, 我无法有意识地与之斗争,我无法将其推开, 我无法与之作战。 我没有时间通过分析一步步理解它。 人生太过短暂了。 因此,我渴望查明权威真相的热情本身 就使得背景的影响远离了。 它不再冲击我的心灵。 你认识到这点了吗? 这是合理的,不是吗? 这是符合逻辑的、明智的。 与背景斗争,反而强化了那个背景。 然而,查明权威真相的迫切性,这份迫切性是你需要的, 因为发现真相是无比重要的, 因为那时你才能自由地去看, 去探究,去发现。 我希望我不是在用我的热情来推着你前进。
26:29 So are you prepared to investigate this whole question of psychological, external or imposed authority of human beings by other human beings, to find the truth of it? Which means to find the truth there must be no motive, no cause for the investigation into the truth of authority. This is asking a tremendous lot, isn't it? Are we prepared for this, or are we all too old? Doesn't matter. If you are too old it's your affair, if you are not intense it's your affair. I want to find out the truth of it, as a human being. Not now, I have gone through all this for the last fifty years so I'm out. It doesn't mean a thing to me, any authority. But I am assuming, as a representative of the human being, I say to myself I want to find the truth of this matter, which is: whether one can live a life without any conformity, without any conflict, without having a goal, a purpose, a projected ideal, which all bring about conflict. The intensity of the investigation depends on the urgency to find the truth of it. To have tremendous energy to find out. 所以你是否已准备好去探究 这心理上的、外在或 被别人所强加的权威的整个问题, 去找出其中的真相? 这意味着,深入权威真相的探究 必须是没有动机、没有起因的。 这要求的太多了,不是吗? 我们为此准备好了吗?还是我们都太老了? 没有关系。如果你太老了,那也是你自己的事, 如果你没有强烈的热情,这是你自己的事情。 作为人类的一员,我想要探明它的真相。 不是现在,在过去的五十年里我早就看透了这些,所以我已经摆脱了它。 任何的权威对我而言都没有任何意义。 但是假设我是人类的一个代表, 我对自己说,我想要找出其中的真相, 也就是: 人是否可以过这样一种生活,其中没有任何遵从, 没有任何冲突, 也没有一个目标、目的和投射出来的理想, 因为这些都会带来冲突。 探究的强度 取决于找出其中真相的迫切性。 要查明它需要巨大的能量。
28:59 Most of us dissipate this energy – goodness, how hot it is – most of us dissipate this energy through conflict. 'What is' and 'what must be'. If we see 'what must be' is an escape or an avoidance of the fact of 'what is', or thought, incapable of meeting 'what is', projects 'what should be' and uses that as a lever to remove 'what is'. Obviously. So is it possible to look, observe what is without any motive to change it, to transform it, to make it conform to a particular pattern that you or another has established? Are you following all this, or is it getting too much? I wonder why you are all here. I would like to find out, if I may, why you are all here. You can't answer me, naturally, each one. But are you here out of curiosity, or to listen to some Asiatic person with some peculiar philosophy, or are you here because he has a reputation, or you have read some books and say, by reading books I can't understand the man, but I will go and listen to him and find out if I can understand. So you should ask yourself, if one may point out, why you are here. Because as we said, this is a very, very serious matter. It is a matter of life and death, and I mean it. In a world that is totally disintegrating, in a hypocritical, monstrous world, immoral world, where they are preparing for war through all kinds of instruments. You know all this. Is it you want to escape from all that and listen to somebody who is talking something which you hope to understand? Or seeing all that, seeing what the world is: the divisions, the conflicts, the corruption, the pollution, the horrors of killing each other – all that is going on in the world – seeing all that you say, there must be a way out of all this, an intelligent, rational, sane way out of all this mess. If that is your intention, then you are serious. But if you just come here casually and listen casually agreeing or disagreeing, that has no meaning whatsoever. 而我们大多数人浪费了这种能量 ——天哪,天气真热!—— 我们大多数人在冲突中浪费了这种能量 ——“真实模样”和“必须怎样”之间的冲突。 我们能否看清“必须怎样”是一种逃避, 或者用它来回避我们“真实模样”的事实, 或者说思想因为无力面对“现状”于是投射出了“应该怎样”, 并且用它来作为一种移除掉“真实模样”的杠杆。 这是显而易见的。 那么,我们能否去看、去观察“真实模样”而没有任何动机 想要去改变它、转变它 或者让它符合某个 你自己或他人建立起来的模式? 这些你们都跟上了吗,还是太难理解了? 我想知道你们为什么来这里。 我想搞清楚——如果可以的话——为什么你们都来到这里。 当然了,不可能每个人都来回答我。 可是,你们来这儿是出于好奇心吗? 还是,为了来听某个亚洲人讲些奇怪的哲学, 或者你来这儿是因为这个人名声在外, 或者,你已经读了他的一些书, 然后说,通过读他的书,我还是无法理解这个人, 所以我要去听他的演讲,看看我能不能够理解他。 所以如果我可以指出的话,你应当问问你自己 你为什么来到这里? 因为,正如我们所说,这是一件非常严肃的事情。 这是生死攸关的事情,我是说真的。 在一个正在彻底瓦解的世界里, 在一个虚伪、丑陋的世界、 一个道德沦丧的世界里, 人类正在通过各种军事装备来准备战争。 你们知道这一切。 是不是因为你想要逃离这一切, 于是你去聆听某人的演讲,并且希望 了解他所说的东西? 还是说看到了这一切后,看到了这个世界的现状: 分裂、冲突、腐败、污染, 互相残杀的可怕暴行 ——这一切正在世界上发生着—— 看到这一切后,你说,必须有一种摆脱这些东西的途径, 以一种智慧、理性、健全的方式来脱离所有这些混乱。 如果这就是你的目的,那么你就是认真的。 可是,如果你只是随随便便地来到这里, 随意地听一下,然后表示赞同或反对的话, 那么这就没有任何意义了。
32:49 So let's proceed. The speaker is assuming that you are really desperately serious – in a nice, humouristic way serious. And being serious, together we are going to investigate into the question of authority and see the truth of it, not opinions, not judgements, not it is necessary or it is not necessary, see the truth of it and therefore be totally free of authority. Authority of a book, authority of a priest, authority of psychologists with their latest desperate inventions. 好了,让我们继续。 讲话者假设你是无比认真的 ——一种优雅而又幽默的认真。 由于你是认真的, 所以我们就可以一起去探究关于权威的问题, 去看清它的真相,不是观点、不是判断, 不是权威是否必要, 而是观察其中的真相,从而完全摆脱权威的影响。 不管是书本的权威、牧师的权威, 还是心理学家和他们最新发明的那些破玩意儿的权威。
33:53 I said to investigate there must be no motive, because the motive will dictate what you will discover. If there is a cause, the effect is dependent on the cause. So the effect is not the truth, it is a reaction. So can your mind be free of every motive to investigate, whatever will happen at the end of it? Which means can you be free of this authoritarian education that one has received from childhood, and that freedom can only come into being when there is the present necessity and the urgency to find out the truth of the matter. Therefore the background fades away. Because if I am very intent to understand what you are saying, I forget myself. I forget I am a Hindu, a Christian, a Buddhist, all my background, I am really interested to understand fully what you mean. Therefore the whole thing disappears, the background, the motive is not, because I am interested to find out. You get what I am talking about, some of you? 我刚说过,探究必须没有动机, 因为动机会主宰你的探索。 如果有个原因,结果就是取决于那个原因的。 因此,结果并不是真相,它是一种反应。 所以你的心能否摆脱一切动机而去探究, 无论最终会发生什么? 也就是说,你能否摆脱从孩童时期就已经接受的 这种权威教育? 而那种自由只能降临于 你此刻迫切地渴望 发现事情的真相时。 因此,那个背景就逐渐消失了。 因为,如果我非常想理解你所说的东西, 我会忘记自我。 我会忘掉我是印度教徒、基督教徒、佛教徒,忘掉我所有的背景, 我真的非常有兴趣充分了解你的意思。 因此,一切都消失了,背景消失了, 动机也不在了,因为我有兴趣去发现。 你理解我所说的吗?有没有人理解了?
35:38 So the intensity is necessary to investigate. And that intensity can only come into being when there is no cause and no effect and therefore no reaction. Are you doing this with me? Not you must, but together we said, and that is why you are here, you have taken a journey, you have taken a lot of trouble, expense and all the rest of it, you are here to find out the truth of the matter. Not what you think, or what I think, which has relatively no value at all, but the truth of something so that you are free forever from this beastly authority. Sorry to use an adjective. You understand what it implies? It implies that you must be completely alone in your investigation. Alone. The word alone means all one. Isn’t that strange? I will repeat it so that you will get it. Alone, the meaning of that word, the root meaning of that word means 'all one'. Aloneness doesn't mean isolation, doesn't mean you have withdrawn, you have built a wall around yourself. Alone means you are all one. Ah, you don't see all this. 因此,热情对于探究而言是必要的。 而那种热情只有在 没有了原因和结果 从而不再有反应时才会出现。 你正在和我一同这么做吗? 不是“你”必须做,而是我们说了要一起做,这也是你来这儿的原因, 你不远万里来到这里,旅途劳顿, 也花了不少钱等等, 你到这里来是为了找出事情的真相。 重要的不是你的想法,或者我的想法, 它们和真相相比没有任何价值,有价值的是事情的真相, 真相可以让你永远摆脱这无耻的权威。 抱歉,我用了“无耻”这个词。 你明白这意味着什么吗? 这意味着你必须 完全独立地去探究。 独自一人。 独自这个词意味着完全一个人。 这听起来是不是有点奇怪? 我会再来解释一下,然后你就明白了。 “独自”这个词的意思, 它的词根义是“完全一个人”。 独自并不意味着孤立, 并不意味着你缩退回去, 然后在自己周围建起围墙。 独自意味着你是完全一个人。啊,你没有明白这一点。
37:54 As humanity, general humanity has a background, a motive, a purpose, a goal, a pattern to live by and therefore they never find out the truth of authority, here we are trying to find out the truth of it. So, if you are at all serious to find the truth of it, you must observe. Observe not outside as it were, but observe why you have authority, why you accept to obey somebody, with a beard, with garlands, all the hoola around it. Why you obey psychologically. You obey a surgeon, when he tells me I have got cancer and he says, look, you have got to go under the knife, and he has taken X-rays and all the rest of it and shows me how dangerous it is, I naturally obey. That is a natural, self-preserving instinct. But the other is not a self-preserving instinct, it is a cultivated instinct, it is an educated instinct, it is a conditioned instinct. 我们都是人, 而一般的人都会有一个背景、动机、目的、目标, 一种生活的模式, 因此他们从未发现权威的真相, 我们在这里试图找出其中的真相。 所以如果你是很认真地想要发现它的真相, 你就必须观察。 不是只观察它的表象, 而是去观察为什么你会有权威, 为什么你会同意去顺从他人, 顺从那个留着胡子、戴着花环、被喧闹人群所包围的人。 你为什么 要从心理上顺从? 你会听从一个外科医生的话, 他告诉我我已经得了癌症, 然后他说,瞧,你必须得动手术了, 他给我做了X光检查等等, 然后告诉我癌症是多么的危险, 我毫无疑问会听从他的话。 这是一种自然的、自保的本能。 可是,另一种却不是自保的本能, 它是一种被培育出来的本能, 一种被教育出来的本能, 它是一种局限化的本能。
39:56 So why do we grown-up human beings, so-called civilised, obey? I am not talking about law, the policeman, etc. Psychologically, why is it that we obey? Is it because in that obedience to an authority there is deep rooted desire for security, or we think there is security in that? Otherwise you wouldn’t be here, would you? Would you, honestly? 那么为什么我们这些成年人,所谓的“文明人”要去遵从呢? 我不是在讨论法律、警察等等这些东西。 从心理上而言,我们为什么要顺从呢? 是不是因为在那份对权威的顺从之中, 存在着根深蒂固的对于安全的渴望, 或者我们认为在那之中存在着安全? 否则你们就不会在这儿了,不是吗? 说实话,你们会吗?
40:55 So, in obedience to some person, idea, authority and so on psychologically, we hope to live a life without conflict, without any kind of uncertainty, which is very, very disturbing, leading to neuroticism. So being already psychologically neurotic one gives oneself over to somebody and be dictated what to do. Aren’t you doing that? So in that obedience there is the root of the desire for satisfaction and security. Please see this. And is there security in any teaching teaching – in any idea or in any person? You have to find out. A speaker like me comes along and says, there is truth, there is an ecstasy. The word ecstasy means to be outside of oneself not inside of yourself and then have a great feeling of happiness, but ecstasy implies, the root meaning implies that you are completely outside of yourself. There is no self. So when one comes along, a person like me and says, there is a state of mind which is beyond death and conflict and sorrow and therefore a mind that is full of compassion and intelligence. He says that, the speaker says that. And you come along and say yes, what a marvellous idea, I wonder how he got it. And he says, if he is silly enough – I am not – he says, well, obey what I say, obey completely, the more totally you obey, the greater your likelihood of having it. And in your eagerness to have this extraordinary state, you obey. 所以我们在心理上服从于某个人、某个理念 或者某种权威等等这些东西, 由此希望过上一种没有冲突的生活, 没有任何不确定性的生活, 不确定性是非常令人不安的, 会导致神经质。 因此由于在心理上已经处于神经质了, 于是我们将自己交给某人,让他来命令我们该怎么做。 你们难道没有在那么做吗? 因此,在那份顺从里, 就存在着对满足感和安全感渴望的源头。 请认识到这一点。 安全是否存在于任何的教导中, 存在于任何观念中 或者存在于任何人身上? 你必须搞清楚这一点。 一个像我一样的讲话者来到这里,然后说 存在着真理,存在着一种“极乐”。 “极乐”这个词意味着超脱于自我, 不是处于“自我”之中然后拥有那种巨大的快乐, 而是“极乐”意味着——这个词的词根义是 你是完全处于自我之外的。 不再有“自我”。 所以当一个像我这样的人过来说, 存在一种心灵状态, 它是超越死亡、冲突以及悲伤的, 因而它是一个充满了慈悲与智慧的心灵。 他这样说了,讲话者这样说了。 然后你过来说,是的,多么了不起的想法, 我想知道他是如何达到这种状态的。 于是讲话者说——如果他有这么蠢的话,我不会那么蠢—— 他说,来吧,听从我说的话,完全听从, 你顺从得越彻底,你就越可能得到它。 于是,由于你急切地要得到这非同寻常的状态,你便顺从了。
43:51 The other day on the BBC I heard one of the disciples of one of these people, a European girl, saying to the interviewer that she has left her family, her friends, all the past and joined this particular group of ideas and she said, 'My guru will tell me exactly what I should do: when to marry, when to have children, when to have sex, when to have babies. I have given myself over to him.' This is what the Catholic church has done for centuries. Only this new thing is rather attractive because it comes from the Orient, slightly romantic, scented and chants and songs and dance, and you fall for it. Because there is the desire inside you to have this extraordinary sense of security so that you are never, never, never disturbed, never uncertain – right? 有一天,在BBC上, 我听到这些人的其中一个门徒, 一个欧洲女孩对采访者说 她抛弃了她的家庭、她的朋友、她所有的过去, 加入了这个特别的思想团体, 然后她说:“我的古鲁(宗教领袖)会准确地告诉我应该做什么: 什么时候结婚,什么时候有孩子,什么时候做爱,什么时候生孩子。 我已经完全将自己交给了他。” 那正是天主教会无数世纪以来所做的。 只不过这个东西是新的,它更加吸引人, 因为它源于东方,稍微浪漫一些, 香薰、圣歌、乐曲以及舞蹈,你为之沉醉。 因为你内心有种欲望, 渴望得到这种非同寻常的安全感, 这样你就永远永远不会被打扰了, 也永远不会感到不确定——不是吗?
45:19 In investigating rationally into the question of authority, if there is any form of obedience – because in obedience there is security – when you see that in that very obedience there is great illusion, then you drop obedience instantly. Do you actually observe, are you aware, as you are aware of your heart beat or your pulse, are you so deeply aware that in any form of obedience there is not only division but there is conflict, there is imitation, conformity, and therefore endless struggle, which ultimately leads to various kinds of illusion. Do you see this? If you see this this morning, then it is over. Then you have dropped it. Then you will never under any circumstances obey anybody, including Jesus, or the Buddha or Krishna or whoever it is, including the speaker. As then you are a total human being representing all humanity, your consciousness has undergone a change, undergone through the perception, which is the awakening of intelligence. That intelligence says, finished forever with this authority. Because you have finished with authority the awakening of that intelligence comes. And therefore it affects your consciousness. 在理性地探究权威问题的过程中, 如果有任何形式的顺从 ——因为在顺从里有安全感—— 然而当你看到在顺从之中 有着巨大的错觉时, 你就会立刻丢弃那份顺从。 你是真的在观察吗?你是否在觉察, 就像你觉察到你的心跳和脉搏那样? 你是否深切地意识到了在任何形式的顺从之中, 不仅有分裂, 还有冲突、模仿、遵循, 由此产生了无止境的斗争, 它最终导致了各种错觉。 你认识到这点了吗? 如果你在今天早晨认识到了它,那么它就结束了。 然后你就丢弃它了。 然后你在任何情况下都绝对不会去顺从任何人, 包括耶稣、 佛陀、克里希纳,或是任何别的什么人, 包括讲话者。 因为那时你是一个代表着全人类的完整的人, 你的意识已经发生了一种改变, 它经历过了洞察的过程, 而这就是智慧的觉醒。 智慧说,与这权威永远地了结。 因为你已经结束了权威, 于是智慧的觉醒便会到来。 因此它会影响你的意识。
47:42 From that one asks: 从这里我们问:
47:46 is it possible to live a life without any pattern, without any goal, without any idea of the future, to live without conflict. Is it possible? Because we are educated to conflict: if I am this, I must fight it, I must suppress it, I must control it. Please listen. Is it possible to live without any conflict? The speaker says yes. And you might say, don't be silly, you are deceiving yourself. Or you like to think you are living without conflict but you actually are. And it is no good arguing with such a person because he has made up his mind. But when the speaker says it is possible to live without any conflict whatsoever, either he is speaking the truth, or he is indulging in some kind of hypocritical illusion. So we have to examine not only the illusion, the hypocrisy of oneself, and also find out if it is possible to live a life without conflict. The speaker says, I will tell you about it. Don't accept it, because then if you accept it that becomes the authority and you are back in the old game. He says it is possible. It is only possible when you live completely with what is. 'What is' being what actually is taking place, live with it. Don't try to transform it, don't try to go beyond it, don't try to control it, don't try to escape from it, just look at it, live with it. Will you do it now? Do it now, for God's sake, not tomorrow. There is no tomorrow. To live with what is, if you are envious, or greedy, or jealous, or you have problems, sex, fear, whatever it is, to live with that without any movement of thought that wants to move away from it. You understand? Am I communicating something? That is, I am envious of you because you are intelligent, you are bright, you look nice, you speak so intelligently, I am envious of you. You have got a big car, a big house, whatever it is, I want that, I am envious. My education has been to deny it, which means I must control it, I must suppress it, I must try to go beyond it. That has been my background, my education. You come along and tell me, there is a different way of living, which is, don't condemn it, don't evaluate it, don't throttle it, don't run away from it, just look at it. Like a newborn child, terribly ugly – the baby, the actual baby, you have seen them, terribly ugly – but the mother says, it is my baby, I am living with it, it is not ugly, it is the most beautiful child I have. So in the same way live with it, which means what? You are not wasting your energy – please listen to this – you are not wasting your energy in control, in suppression, in conflict, in resistance, in escape, all that energy has been wasted. Now you have gathered that, because you see the absurdity of it, the falseness of it, the unreality of it, you have now got the energy to live with what is. Am I making myself clear? Very clear? Good. Then do it. Then you have that energy to observe without any movement of thought. It is the thought that has created jealousy, and thought says, I must run away from it, I must escape from it, I must suppress it. That is my education, my background, my conditioning. But somebody says to me, don't do that, that's too childish, you can't solve this problem of envy that way. Live with it. Don't move away from the thing which thought has created. Don't let another kind of thought say, run away from it, resist it. After all, envy is created by thought, thought, awakening a reaction which is emotional, sentimental and romantic, etc. That thought has created this reaction which is called envy. Thought has created it. And thought says also, I must run away from it, I don't know what to do with it. I must escape, resist, swallow. So we are saying if you see the falseness of escape, resistance, suppression, then that energy which has gone into suppression, resistance, escape, is gathered to observe – you see? Then what takes place? You do it, please do it with me as we go along together, otherwise there is no point in my talking. 是否可能过一种生活, 这种生活没有任何模式、没有任何目标、 没有任何关于未来的想法, 在这生活中没有冲突。 这可能吗? 因为我们所接受的教育就是指向冲突的: 如果我是这样的,我必须与之斗争, 我必须压制它,我必须控制它。 请听好。 是否可能没有任何冲突地生活? 讲话者说这是可能的。 而你也许会说,别傻了,你只是在欺骗自己罢了。 或者你觉得你正在过着没有冲突的生活, 可事实并非如此。 而与这样的人争论是毫无益处的, 因为他已经认定了这个想法。 然而,当讲话者说, 过一种没有任何冲突的生活是可能的, 要么他讲的是实话, 要么他沉迷于某种虚伪的幻觉之中。 所以我们要审视的不仅仅是幻觉、 自我的虚伪, 还要去搞清楚是否可能过一种没有冲突的生活。 而讲话者说,我会来细细解释的。 但不要就此接受, 因为如果你接受了它,它就会变成权威, 于是你又走回老路了。 他说这是可能的。 这只有当你完全与“真实现状”共处时才可能。 “真实现状”就是实际在发生的事情, 与之共处。 不要试图转变它, 不要试图超越它,不要试图控制它, 不要试图逃离它,只是去观察它,和它共处。 你能现在就这样做吗? 现在就做,看在上帝的份上,别等到明天。 不存在什么“明天”。 和“真实现状”共处, 如果你是妒忌的、贪婪的或嫉妒的, 或者你有着诸多问题:性问题、恐惧,无论什么问题, 都与之共存,不要掺杂任何的思想活动, 那种想要逃离它们的想法。 你明白了吗?我是否传达了一些东西? 比如说,我妒忌你, 因为你很智慧,你很聪明,你长得好看, 你谈吐不凡,所以我妒忌你。 你有一辆豪车、一幢大房子,无论什么东西, 我也想要这些东西,于是我心生妒忌。 我的教育一直让我拒绝妒忌, 也就是说,我必须控制它, 我必须压抑它, 我必须努力去超越它。 那就是我的背景、我的教育。 而你来到这儿告诉我说,有一种不同的生活方式, 那就是,不要谴责它、不要评价它, 不要扼杀它,也不要逃离它, 而只是去观察它。 就像一个新出生的婴儿,他非常丑陋 ——如果你见过刚出生的婴儿就会知道很难看—— 可母亲会说,这是我的孩子,我将与之生活,他并不丑陋, 他是我最美的孩子。 所以用同样的方式和妒忌共处, 这意味着什么? 这时你没有浪费你的能量——请听好—— 你没有把自己的能量浪费在控制、 压抑、冲突、抵抗和逃避上 ——而之前你所有的能量都浪费在了这些东西上。 现在,你已经将能量聚集起来,因为你认识到了之前做法的荒谬, 它的错误、它的虚幻, 你现在已经有能量与“真实现状”共处了。 我表达清楚了吗? 清楚了?好的。那就这样去做吧。 然后你就有能量去进行没有思想活动的观察了。 是思想制造了嫉妒, 然后思想说,我必须逃离它, 我必须逃避它,我必须抑制它。 这就是我的教育、我的背景、我的局限。 然而,有人对我说,别那样做,那样太幼稚了, 那样你无法解决嫉妒的问题。你要与之共处。 别离开思想所创造出的事物。 别让另一种思想说,去逃离它、抵抗它吧。 毕竟,妒忌是思想所创造的, 思想唤醒了一种情绪化的、 多愁善感的、浪漫的等等这一类的反应。 思想制造了被称之为妒忌的反应。 是思想造出了它。 而思想同样也说,我必须逃离它, 我不知道该拿它怎么办。 我必须逃离、抵抗或忍受它。 所以我们说,如果你看到了逃避的错误, 看到了抵抗、压抑的错误, 那么那些原本花在压制、抵抗和逃避上的能量, 就被聚集起来用于观察了,你明白了吗? 然后会发生什么呢? 请你这么做,随着我们一起探究,请和我一起这么做, 否则,我的谈话就没有意义。
55:28 So now you are not escaping, not resisting, and you are envious, which is the result of the movement of thought. Envy is comparison, is measurement – I have not, you have. So thought has brought about this feeling of envy. And thought itself says, I must run away from this enormous thing I don't know. I have been educated to run away. Because you see the falseness of it you stop. And you have this energy to observe this envy. The very word envy, the very word is its own condemnation. When I say I am envious, there is already a sense of pushing it away. So the word – the word – one must be free of the word to observe. All this demands tremendous alertness, tremendous watchfulness, awareness, so not to escape and see the word envy – has the word created the feeling ? Without the word is there a feeling? If there is no word and therefore no movement of thought – right ? You understand what I am saying? then is there envy? I am envious, envy implies comparison, measurement, desire to be something other than what is, or to have something which I have not got. My education has been to run away from it, suppress it. Now, by listening to what you are saying very, very carefully, I see the absurdity of it, therefore the very perception of it puts it all away from me, therefore there is a gathering of energy. 所以现在你没有逃避,没有抵抗,你就是妒忌的, 而这是思想运动的结果。 妒忌就是比较与衡量 ——你有,我没有。 因此,是思想带来了这种妒忌的感觉。 而思想本身说, 我必须逃离这个我不了解的可怕事物。 一直以来,我都被教育着去逃避。 因为你看到了这其中的错误,于是你停了下来。 然后你便有了这份去观察妒忌的能量。 妒忌这个词本身, 这个词本就带有自身的谴责意味了。 当我说我很妒忌时,就已经有了一种想去除它的意味。 所以对于词语——词语—— 我们必须脱离它才能观察。 这一切都需要高度的警觉、 注意和觉察, 因此不要逃避,而是去观察“妒忌”这个词 ——是不是词语造成了感觉? 没有词语,还会有那种感觉吗? 如果没有词语,便不会有思想活动 ——对吗?——你理解我所说的吗? 那时还会有妒忌吗? 我妒忌, 妒忌意味着比较与衡量, 渴望成为一个“不一样的自己”, 或者得到某个我没有的东西。 而我的教育就是教我去逃离它、抑制它。 现在,通过非常仔细地倾听你所说的, 我观察到了其中的荒谬, 因此对这一点的洞察就让我把它彻底抛弃了, 因此能量被聚集了起来。
58:25 Then, I am investigating envy. Has the word created the feeling? Because the word is associated with the feeling. Communism is associated with a certain pattern of life. So the word is dictating my feeling. Can I observe without the word? Do it, do it! Can you observe your envy without the word? Which means, the word is the movement of thought used to communicate, communicate with itself or with another. So when there is no word there is no communication between the fact and the observer. Therefore, the movement of thought as envy has come to an end, come to an end completely, not temporarily. You can look at a beautiful car and observe the beauty, the line, and there is the end of it. 然后我去探究妒忌。 是不是词语制造出了那种感觉? 因为词语与感受是息息相关的。 共产主义和一种特定的生活模式是紧密联系在一起的。 因此,词语正在主宰我的感受。 我能不带词语地去观察吗? 去这么做,就这么做! 你能不带着词语去观察你的妒忌吗? 也就是说,词语是思想的运动, 它被用来交流, 与其自身交流,或与其他人交流。 因此,当没有词语的存在时,也就没有了 事实与观察者间的交流。 因此, 妒忌作为一种思想活动就停止了, 彻底地停止了,而不是暂时地。 你可以欣赏一辆漂亮的车,观赏它的美丽、它的线条, 然后就到此为止。
1:00:06 So, to live with what is completely implies no conflict whatsoever. Therefore there is no future as transforming it into something else. The very ending of it is the gathering of supreme energy which is a form of intelligence. So at the end of this talk, communication with each other, are you really free from all authority, free from all conclusions, free from all sense of going towards something? Which doesn't mean you live in despair, on the contrary. There is only despair when there is a projection of hope, when you are living with what is, there is neither future nor past, there it is. 所以完全和“真实现状”共处 意味着没有任何的冲突。 因此也就不存在一个未来说要把现状转变成其他样子。 而这种结束本身就能够聚集起至高的能量 ——这就是一种智慧。 所以在这次讲话、这次彼此交流的最后, 你是否真的摆脱掉了所有的权威, 摆脱掉了所有的结论, 摆脱了所有朝着某个目标前进的感觉? 这并不意味着你生活在绝望中,正相反, 只有当投射出希望时,才会有绝望, 当你与“真实现状”共处时,既没有未来也没有过去, 就是这样。
1:01:39 What time is it? 现在几点了?
1:01:49 So can you, by having listened seriously, with care I hope, have you discovered for yourself the truth that authority is the most destructive psychological factor? And therefore, when there is no authority of any kind, which is pattern, idea and so on, you are living entirely in the world – actually, of timelessness which is living with what is, in which there is no time. Therefore there is an awakening of intelligence with which we are concerned, at least with which the speaker is concerned. And that by talking, by discussing with you, by going into it step by step with you, it is the intention of the speaker, it is the urgency of the speaker to awaken that intelligence in you. He is not awakening it in you – by working together, listening over the thing together it is naturally awakened, right ? 所以通过认真的、 细心的倾听——我希望是如此—— 你是否已经亲自发现了真相, 即权威是最具破坏性的心理因素? 因此当没有了任何权威时 ——权威就是模式、观念等等—— 你才是完完全全地活在这个世界上——真实、永恒地活着—— 也就是和“真实现状”共处,其中是没有时间的。 于是智慧被唤醒了, 而这一点正是我们所关心的 ——至少是讲话者所关心的。 通过和你谈话、与你讨论, 通过和你一步一步地探究, 讲话者的目的, 讲话者的当务之急正是去唤醒你内心的智慧。 不是他唤醒了你内在的智慧,而是通过我们一起努力、 一起倾听,智慧就自然而然地被唤醒了,对吗?