Krishnamurti Subtitles
|
SA78T7 - 如果你没有忙个不停，你就什么都不是了吗？
|
|
| 0:23 I believe this is the last talk. There’ll be discussions, or dialogues, or conversations – whatever you may like to call it – on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Then we can bombard each other with a lot of questions and try to find answers for them! | 0:23 我想这是我们最后的一次演讲了。 之后我们会进行讨论、或者说对话， 或者说是“交谈” ——无论你们想怎么称呼它都行—— 在星期三、星期四、 星期五、星期六、星期天的时候。 到时候我们就可以 带着一大堆问题“互相轰炸”， 然后试着去找到这些问题的答案了！ |
| 1:02 During the last six talks we have talked over, together, a great many things. We’ve talked over how we are influenced by institutions, controlled and shaped by them. | 1:02 在过去的六次演讲中， 我们一起讨论了很多的东西。 我们讨论了 我们是如何被机构团体所影响的， 是如何被它们所控制和塑造的。 |
| 1:33 We also went into the question of ideals, how they distort our lives, making us violent, ineffectual, not dealing with realities of life. And also, we talked about the pressure of knowledge: knowledge, we said, is always in the past, how that knowledge controls, shapes our thinking, our action, and we are influenced by that greatly, by the past, the past being experience, accumulated as knowledge in the brain and the response of that is memory. We also talked about the pressure of ideas – ideas in our relationship with each other, what must be, what should be and so on. 3:02 We also talked about the various forms of illusion in which we live. And we talked about fear, whether fear can end, completely, totally, eradicated from our very depth, so that a human being is totally free from that darkness. We also talked about the pursuit of endless pleasure, pleasure being the response of the senses as desire and the expression of that desire in the present, from the past, and to the future. We also went into the question of whether human beings can ever end their sorrow, not only their momentary, passing grief, but also the deep sorrow of man who has faced wars, destruction, endless conflict, without any meaning to life. 4:50 And we also went into the question of what is love, whether a human being can love another without all the problem that is involved in it: ambition, personal concern, jealousy, antagonism, domination, attachment and so on. We went into all that. And where these things exist, we said, there is no love. And when our action is based on merely thought, which is memory, then that action is incomplete, and being incomplete it must, invariably, bring about conflict. 6:06 Any action that is not total, whole, holistic, complete, must breed contradiction. We went into that, very carefully. | 1:33 我们同样也探讨了关于「理想」的问题， 理想是如何扭曲我们的生活， 使我们变得暴力、无能， 无法应对现实生活的。 我们同样也谈论了 知识的压力： 我们说了：知识永远都是过去的东西， 知识是如何控制和塑造 我们的思考与行动的， 而我们受到了它极大的影响， 被「过去」所影响， 「过去」就是经验，它作为「知识」积累在大脑中， 而它所产生的反应就是「记忆」。 我们还探讨了「观点看法」的压力 ——存在于我们彼此关系中的「观点看法」： 必须要怎么样，应该要怎么样，等等。 3:02 我们也谈论了 我们所生活于其中的各种错觉幻想。 我们还谈论了恐惧：恐惧是否能够结束？ 完全地、彻底地根除掉 我们内心深处的恐惧， 由此一个人便能够 完全地摆脱掉那种「黑暗」了。 我们同样也谈论了 对于无尽快感的追求， 快感就是作为「欲望」的感官反应 而当下的这种欲望的表达， 它来自于「过去」，并延续至「未来」。 我们也探讨了这个问题： 那就是人类是否能够 结束他们的苦难 ——不只是他们短暂的、转瞬即逝的悲伤， 也包括人类内心深处的痛苦， 人类面对着战争、毁灭、无尽的冲突， 生活毫无意义。 4:50 我们同样也探究了 关于“什么是「爱」”的问题， 一个人是否能够去爱另一个人 ——而没有所有这种“爱”中所牵涉到的问题： 野心、个人的关注、嫉妒、对立、 支配、执著依恋，等等。 我们探讨了所有这些。 而我们说了：当存在这些东西， 那就不会有「爱」了。 当我们的行动仅仅是建立在「思想」 ——也就是「记忆」——之上时， 这种行动就是不完整的， 而由于这种行动是不完整的， 那它必然总是会带来冲突。 6:06 任何不完全、不完整、 不全面、不彻底的行动 都必然会滋生出「矛盾」。 我们已经非常小心仔细地探讨了它。 |
| 6:23 And the other day, we talked about the ending of sorrow, and with that ending, compassion. And I think we ought to talk about various other things, too this morning. I hope you’re all comfortable – it’s pretty hot! | 6:23 而前几天，我们则谈论了「苦」的终结， 以及伴随着「苦」的结束，就会有「慈悲」。 而今天早上，我认为我们也应该来探讨一下 各种其他话题。 我希望你们都还舒服 ——天气实在有点热！ |
| 6:59 We ought to ask ourselves, I think, why we follow another, which, apparently, you’re doing. Why we become disciples of somebody. If there were no disciples, there would be no teachers and because of disciples the teachers multiply and the disciple then destroys that which he started out to look for. He wants to find out, if he’s a really serious person, he wants to find out what truth is, if there is freedom, if there is a sense of timeless existence. 8:16 And if you follow another, whether it be the priest, a book, a guru, an authority, then you’ll never, under whatever circumstances, find all that. So, can one ask oneself, seriously, why we follow another? This is really very important because it denies freedom. And one has followed the priest in Western Europe as well as in Asia for thousands and thousands of years. We are still in agony, uncertainty, miserable, unhappy, in conflict, endless travail. And it may be, essentially, the fault of the disciple, of the one who follows, either the book, the word, or the person. 9:43 And when you follow, you deny your own investigation, exploration into truth. And so, if one may suggest, don’t follow anybody, including the speaker. I’ve made that very clear from the very beginning, that we are talking to each other, that the speaker is not here, that you are looking at yourself, and discovering all the problems, the confusion, the uncertainty, the extraordinary demand of desire and so on. You are asking these questions of yourself, therefore, there is no teacher and no disciple, only learning – not learning from another, but learning about yourself, looking into yourself. 11:10 You cannot possibly look into yourself, objectively, without any direction and motive if you’re all the time consumed with your own importance, with your own ambitions, with your own problems. | 6:59 我认为，我们应该问问我们自己： 为什么我们要追随他人 ——很显然，这就是你们正在做的事。 为什么我们要变成某人的弟子。 如果没有了“弟子”，那么也就不会有“导师”了， 正是因为众多“弟子”的存在， “导师”才会越来越多， 于是弟子便摧毁了 他最开始准备去寻找的东西。 他想要去发现 ——如果他真的很认真的话—— 他会想要去发现 什么是「真理」， 「自由」是否存在， 以及是否能感受到那个「永恒的存在」。 8:16 而如果你追随他人的话 ——不管那个人是牧师、 是一本书、一个古鲁、还是一个权威， 那么无论在任何情况下， 你都永远无法找到所有那些东西了。 所以，我们能否认真严肃地问问自己： 为什么我们要去追随别人？ 这真的很重要， 因为 追随他人 否定了「自由」。 成千上万年以来， 在西方欧洲世界，人们会追随牧师， 在亚洲地区，人们也会追随某人。 然而如今我们却仍旧陷入于苦难、不确定、 痛苦和不快乐之中， 陷入于冲突和无尽的艰辛痛苦中。 而这从根本上来说，也许是「弟子」们的错， 是追随者的错，不管他追随的是 一本书、一个咒语、还是一个人。 9:43 因为当你追随的时候，你便否定了 你自身对于真理的探究 与探索。 因此，如果某人（指克氏自己）可以建议下的话， 请不要去追随任何人 ——包括演讲者本人。 这一点我从一开始的时候， 就说得很清楚了， 那就是：我们正在彼此交谈， 这里并没有“演讲者”，你正在观察你自己， 然后去发现所有的问题、困惑、不确定， 以及欲望的奇特要求，等等。 你正在向你自己提出这些问题， 因此，这里没有老师，也没有弟子， 只有「学习」 ——不是从别人那里学习， 而是学习关于「你自己」的知识， 去审视你自己。 11:10 你不可能客观地、 没有任何方向与动机地审视你自己 ——如果你一直都忙碌专注于 你的自我重要性、 你的野心和问题的话。 |
| 11:29 I wonder if you’ve ever asked yourselves why you have a problem of any kind – perhaps a mathematical problem, scientific problem, problems of knowledge but, psychologically, why do you have problems? And if you have a problem, why do you not end it, immediately and not carry it over and over and over again for the rest of your life? You see, when a problem presents itself to you and you do not solve it, instantly, and you think about the problem, worry about the problem, that deteriorates the brain cells, obviously. 12:37 To solve a problem, human problem, psychological problem, the problem of relationship, it matters, enormously, how you approach it. Do you understand? Please, we are talking to each other. There is no guru, there’s no teacher, here, there’s only the problem, and how you approach the problem, because in the approach to the problem may be the solution. You understand what we’re saying? | 11:29 我不知道你们是否曾经问过自己： 为什么你会有某种问题呢 ——它也许是一道数学难题、一个科学上的问题、 各种知识层面的问题， 然而在心理层面，为什么你们会有各种问题？ 此外，如果你有了一个问题， 为什么你不立即就结束掉它呢？ 而不是在你余生里，一遍又一遍地重蹈覆辙。 你瞧，当一个问题摆在你的面前时， 如果你没有立即就解决它， 而是去思考那个问题、担忧那个问题， 那么很显然，这便会让大脑细胞堕落退化。 12:37 要解决问题，一个人类的问题， 心理上的问题， 关系的问题， 那么你处理问题的方式 将是至关重要的。 你们能理解吗？ 请注意，我们是在彼此交谈。 这里并没有什么古鲁，也没有老师， 存在的只有「问题」， 那么你是如何去处理问题的呢？ 因为在处理问题的方式中， 也许就有着问题的解答。 你能理解我们正在说的东西吗？ |
| 13:38 Suppose I have a problem: if I approach it with a desire to end it, I’m already coming to it with a determined purpose, which may distort the problem, itself. If I come to it with a motive, the motive will dictate the answer of the problem. We are following each other, I’m not talking to myself, we are talking to each other. We are sharing this thing, together. Or rather, you are investigating and discovering this thing, for yourself, that you cannot solve a human problem if you approach it, wrongly. 14:40 There is a correct approach, which is: without a motive, without trying to end the problem, you then are approaching it with a conclusion, with already premeditated intention, so the problem remains. Whereas, if you can free yourself from the motive, from the direction, the desire to find an answer, then you come to it, freely, whatever that problem is, even if it be the most scientific, complex problem. Because the free mind doesn’t create a problem, it meets a problem, then answers it, but it doesn’t create a problem. 15:52 But, whereas, we create problems, and having created it, we approach it with fear, with anxiety to solve it, consult others, you know, go through all the movements of trying to solve it. Or, you investigate the problem, very thoroughly, observing it, let the problem tell you the whole story of itself. Then perhaps during the day, you find a complete freedom from that problem. | 13:38 假如我有了一个问题： 如果我是带着想要消除这个问题的渴望 去处理问题的话， 那我就是带着一个既定的目的 去接近问题了 ——而这也许就会扭曲问题本身。 如果我是带着一个动机去面对处理问题， 这个动机就会决定问题的答案。 我们正在彼此跟上对方的思路， 我并不是在自言自语， 我们正在互相交谈。 我们正在一起分享这个主题。 或者更确切地说：你正在为自己 去探究和发现这件事情， 那就是：如果你以错误的方式去处理问题， 你就无法解决人类的问题了。 14:40 存在着一种正确的处理方式，那就是： 不要带有动机，不要试图去终结那个问题 ——因为如果你这样做，那你就是带着结论、 带着预谋好的意图在处理问题了， 于是问题就会继续存在下去。 然而，如果你可以让自己摆脱掉动机， 摆脱掉方向和想要找到答案的渴望， 那么你就可以自由地去面对处理问题了 ——不管那是什么样的问题， 即使它是最复杂的科学问题。 因为一个自由的头脑是不会制造出问题的， 它会面对问题，然后解答它， 但它并不会创造出问题。 15:52 然而我们却在创造出各种问题， 而在制造出问题后， 我们带着恐惧去处理它， 带着焦虑去解决它，去向别人咨询请教， 你知道的，用尽一切办法 试图去解决那个问题。 或者你会非常彻底地去探究这个问题， 去观察它，让这个问题向你讲述它全部的故事。 那么，也许在白天的时候， 你就会发现自己已完全摆脱了那个问题。 |
| 16:39 So, what we are saying is, our human minds, the brain, the mind, the thought, the emotions, the senses are millions and millions of years old. It’s heavily conditioned and that is creating the problems. And as long as the brain is still thinking of ways out of it, it is still furthering the problems, enlarging the problems. I hope… Are we making this clear, for ourselves? | 16:39 所以，我们正在说的是： 我们人类的头脑、大脑，心智、 思想、情感、感觉， 它们已经存在了有数百万年之久了。 它们是深受制约的， 正是它们在制造着各种问题。 而只要大脑仍旧在思考着 摆脱问题的途径， 它就仍然是在进一步 加剧那些问题、放大那些问题。 我希望 我们自己有没有清楚这一点呢？ |
| 17:28 So, we are going to discuss, non-problematically – you understand, it’s not a problem, nothing is a problem until we make it. We are going to investigate, not make it as something that you have to solve. And please understand this. This is very important because we’re going to enquire into this whole question of what is a religious life, whether it is tenable, possible to live that religious life in this world. That’s one of the problems – I won’t call it a problem – that’s one of the things that we’re going to look into. 18:34 And we are also going to enquire into the whole movement of the mind, the brain, not only during the day but when it is asleep. We’re also going to enquire – and not make an issue of it – into the question of time, the question of space, distance, and the very complex problem – not problem – the very complex state of mind that is capable of real meditation. | 17:28 所以，我们将要来讨论…… 不是讨论什么“问题” ——你知道的，这并不是一个“问题”， 没有任何东西是“问题”——除非直到我们把它变成问题。 我们将会来探究它， 而不是把它变成某种 你必须要去解决的东西。 请你们理解这一点。 这是非常重要的， 因为我们将要来探询 那整个关于“什么是宗教生活”的问题， 以及在这个世界上去过一种「宗教生活」 它是否是站得住脚的，它是否可行。 这是一个问题——我不会把它称为“问题”—— 这是我们将要去探究的东西之一。 18:34 此外，我们也要来探询一下 心灵和大脑的全部运动， 不只是在白天时候的运动， 也包括它睡眠时候的运动。 我们还会探询一下…… ——但不会把它变成一个问题—— 来探询一下关于「时间」的问题， 以及「空间」和「距离」的问题， 以及那个非常复杂的问题 ——不是“问题”—— 而是那种非常复杂的 能够进行真正冥想的心灵状态。 |
| 19:36 We are going to go into all that, and as we said, let us approach it without wanting to find a solution for any of that. You understand? Then it becomes fun. Then there is a certain sense of joy in enquiry. | 19:36 我们将会来探讨所有这些， 而就如我们说过的： 我们要以这样的方式去处理它： 那就是 不要渴望寻求任何问题的解决。 你们懂了吗？ 由此它就会变成一件乐事。 那时在那种探询中就会有某种「喜悦」感。 |
| 20:21 First of all, let us enquire, look, observe, what is the movement of our life when we are awake during the day, and what is that movement when we are asleep. We have divided sleeping and waking, which may be entirely wrong. One must sleep, darkness is necessary for nature, so we need to have sleep. But we have separated sleeping and waking. And we have never enquired into the state of the mind that is not sleeping, that’s awake – I won’t use the word ‘awake,’ that is not sleeping, let’s put it that way. 21:36 And the state of the mind that is asleep during the night. Right? Because it’s important to understand this because – not because, sorry – it’s important to understand. Phew! Very hot. What is the state of the mind in which is included the senses, the desires, thought, memory, experience, knowledge and all the movement during our waking hours, what is that state of mind? – not how to get out of it, or how to resolve it, but to look at it. You understand? You look at a flower by the roadside. 23:06 There, you’re looking at it, seeing the beauty of it, the quiet state of its existence, the colour of it and the perfume of it. And you just look and you go by. In the same way, let’s look at the movement of our life during the waking hours, just like that, without wanting to resolve any of the complexities, any of the issues that are involved during our day. During our day in which there is constant relationship, whether in a factory, in the office, whether in the house, everything, it is based on relationship. 24:03 And why has everything become a problem? I hope you’re asking this question of yourself: why we take on certain robes, follow certain people, put on their… carry on their message or whatever, their – all that filth – I call it filth because it’s not reality, it’s not truth, it’s just an evasion from enquiring into the enormous complexity of our existence. | 20:21 但首先，让我们去探询、去审视、去观察 我们生活的运动是什么， 也就是当我们白天醒着的时候的活动， 以及当我们睡着以后的活动。 我们已经划分了「睡眠」与「清醒」这两者 ——而这种划分也许是完全错误的。 我们必须要睡觉，对自然界来说 「黑夜」是必不可少的元素。 所以我们需要睡觉。 但我们却把「睡眠」和「清醒」这两者分开了。 我们从来没有去探询过那种 并非「沉睡」的心灵状态， 那种“觉醒”的状态 ——我还是别用“觉醒”这个词了 应该是那种没有沉睡的状态 ——让我们先这么说吧。 21:36 也没有去探询过 晚上睡着时的心灵状态。 对吧？ 但了解它是很重要的，因为 ——不是“因为”，不好意思说错了—— 了解这一点很重要。 唉！ 天太热了。 那种心灵状态包含了各种感官感觉、 欲望、思想、记忆、经验、知识， 以及我们醒着的时候的所有活动 ——这种心灵状态是什么呢？ 不是如何脱离这种状态 或者如何去消解它， 而是去观察它。 你们懂了吗？ 你会去看路边的一朵花。 23:06 你会驻足观赏它，欣赏它的美、 它宁静的存在状态、 它的色彩、它的芬芳。 但你只是看了一下它，然后就走掉了。 所以让我们也以同样的方式 去看一下我们自己生活中的活动 ——在我们醒着的时候的那些活动， 就这样子去看， 不再渴望去解决我们白天时候遇到的 任何复杂难题、 与任何问题。 在白天的时候， 我们会持续不断地处于「关系」之中 ——不管是在工厂里、在办公室里、 还是在家里，任何地方， 我们的生活是建立在关系之上的。 24:03 那为什么每一样事物 都会变成一个问题呢？ 我希望你正在问自己这个问题： 为什么我们要穿上特定的长袍， 然后去追随某人， 穿上他们的……去传递他们的讯息， 或者无论他们的什么东西 ——所有那些污秽之物—— 我之所以把它称为“污秽”， 是因为它并不是真实的，它并不是真理， 它只是我们在回避 而不愿去探询 我们自身「存在」的巨大复杂性。 |
| 24:56 And does that same movement, which is during the day, carry on when we’re asleep? You understand my question? Please, put this question to yourself, though I’m putting it to you, you are putting it to yourself. Does the daily movement of reactions and responses, and anxious, all the things that are going on in our daily activity, both technological, as well as in human relationships: the observation of the beauty of a mountain, the running waters, the still sky, and the majesty of a mountain, and the solitary tree in a vast field, all that movement, does it go on when we are asleep? 26:18 How will you find out? It’s important to find out. Obviously, if you have an issue, a problem, something that has not been resolved, you carry on that problem during the day to the next day, and so on. That problem goes over and over and over, during the day and during the next day and so on, which means that problem is carried over during the sleep, obviously. A problem implies disorder. Right? Any problem you have, human, specially human problem, implies that there is a state of disorder in your mind, in your way of thinking, looking, and so that disorder is carried over during the sleep and continues the next day. Right? 27:55 I’m not stating this, you are discovering this for, yourself. Bene? | 24:56 而白天时候的那些活动， 它们会在我们睡觉的时候继续下去吗？ 你们明白我的问题吗？ 请你们问问自己这个问题吧， 尽管是我在向你们提问， 但你们也正在问自己这个问题。 我们日常生活中的那些反应、回应与焦虑， 所有那些我们日常活动中所发生的事情 ——不管是技术上的活动、 还是人类关系中的活动： 观赏一座高山的美， 欣赏奔腾的流水、寂静的天空、 雄伟壮丽的山川， 以及广袤田野中的那棵孤树， 所有这些活动…… 它们会在我们睡着以后继续下去吗？ 26:18 你要如何才能发现它呢？ 去搞清楚它是很重要的。 显而易见，如果你有了 一个问题、一个难题， 某个尚未解决的东西， 那你就会将这个问题从今天拖到明天，以此类推。 那个问题在白天的时候反反复复地出现， 而在第二天，它又会出现，等等。 这就意味着这个问题 在睡眠的时候也在延续着——这是很显然的。 问题就暗示了「失序」。 对吧？ 你所遇到的任何问题，人类的问题…… 尤其是人类的问题， 就暗示在你的头脑中、 在你的思维方式和观察方式中 存在着一种混乱失序状态， 而这种「失序」也会在睡眠的时候 延续下去， 由此才会在第二天继续出现。是吧？ 27:55 并不是我在声明这一点， 而是你正在自己去发现这一点。 （意大利语）好吗？ |
| 28:09 Now, the brain is constantly active with one or a dozen problems, and the brain can only function clearly, efficiently, intelligently, with all its energy, when there is order. That’s obvious, too. When you have order in your life or even for a day, or even for an hour, you feel full of energy. So, the brain demands order. Right? But during the day we have problems, we have disorder, and the brain, during the sleep, has to bring about order, otherwise, it can’t function the next day, properly. The speaker is not a brain specialist, thank God! But he has observed this phenomenon in himself, watched it. | 28:09 你瞧，我们的大脑持续不断地忙碌于 某个问题或者一大堆问题， 而要让大脑 清晰地、高效地、明智地、全力以赴地运转 ——这只有当有了「秩序」以后才行。 这也是很显然的事。 当你在生活中有了「秩序」，哪怕只有一天时间， 或者甚至只有一个小时， 你也会感到充满了能量。 所以，大脑需要「秩序」。 对吧？ 然而在白天的时候， 我们有着各种问题，我们混乱失序， 于是大脑在睡眠中必须要带来秩序， 否则的话，第二天它就无法正确合理地运转了。 演讲者并不是一个大脑专家，谢天谢地！ 但他已经在自己身上注意到了这种现象， 他观察了它。 |
| 29:44 So, can there be order during the day? Order being, any problem that arises, dissolved instantly. If you are jealous, solve it, get free of it, immediately, as it arises. To be so totally free of it, look at it. That is, look at it, not as an observer separate from the thing he has observed, as jealousy, but the observer himself is jealous, otherwise he couldn’t recognise it. You’re following all this? I hope you are. It doesn’t matter if you don’t. It’s your own life. If you are envious, as most people are and, in being envious there is comparison, imitation, conformity – and to end envy, immediately. 31:39 Which means, to look at it and not run away from it, translate it, justify it. Just look at it as you would look at that wayside flower, with its colour, with its beauty, with its life, with its extraordinary strength, growing out of poor soil. In the same way, look at it. But you cannot look if you say, ‘That is jealousy, that’s envy’ – which means you are looking at it with the word, which is a means of remembering that you have been jealous, when you have been greedy, envious. So, you’re looking at it with the eyes of the past. Right? You’re getting all this? | 29:44 所以，我们是否可能 在白天的时候就拥有秩序呢？ 这里「秩序」的意思就是： 在任何问题出现时，立刻就化解掉它。 如果你感到嫉妒了，那就化解掉它、 摆脱掉它， 在嫉妒心升起的时候，立即解决它。 完全彻底地摆脱掉它，去观察它。 换句话说：去观察它——但不是作为一个 与你所观察的事物——即「嫉妒」—— 相分离的“观察者”去观察它， 而是说这个“观察者”——他本身就是嫉妒， 否则的话，他是无法识别嫉妒的。 你们理解这一切了吗？ 我希望你们都理解了。 但如果你不理解 那也没关系。 毕竟这是你自己的生活。 如果你有嫉妒心——大多数人都会有嫉妒心 在那种嫉妒中，有着比较、模仿、遵从 ——那就立即结束掉这种嫉妒。 31:39 它的意思就是：去观察它，而不要逃离它、 不要去翻译诠释它，也不要把它合理化。 只是去看它，就像你会去看路边的野花一样， 去观赏它的色彩、它的美、它的生命活力、 它那种从贫瘠土壤中生长出来的非凡力量。 请你以同样的方式去看「嫉妒」。 但如果你说，“这是嫉妒、那是妒忌”， 那你就无法去看它了 ——因为这意味着你是通过这个「词语」在看它， 而这个词语本身是一种承载记忆的方式 ——让你记起你曾经嫉妒过， 你曾经贪婪过、妒忌过。 所以，你是用「过去」的眼光在看它。 对吧？你们领会这一切了吗？ |
| 32:38 So, when there is complete order during the day, the brain then hasn’t to work, work while you are asleep to bring order. Then, when there is complete order – I mean absolute order, not relative order – then the brain is renewing itself and the dreams, which for so many people become so extraordinarily important, do not take place, except very, very physical, superficial dreams. You understand all this? Unless you test this, test it, go into it, find out for yourself. If you accept this, then you become a disciple, then you become something utterly useless. | 32:38 因此，当白天的时候有了完全的秩序， 那么大脑就用不着一直不停地工作、工作 哪怕在你睡着时仍要工作以带来秩序了。 而那时，当有了完全的秩序 ——我的意思是那种「绝对的」秩序， 而不是「相对性」的秩序—— 那么大脑就会自我更新了， 于是，那些「梦」 ——「梦」对很多人来说 已经变得如此至关重要—— 那时，就不会做梦了——除了那些 完全是外在身体层面的、非常肤浅表面的梦。 你们能听懂所有这些吗？ 除非你去试验一下，去测试一下它、 探究它、亲自去发现它，否则你是不会理解的。 如果你只是接受了它， 那么你就变成了一个“弟子”， 因此你就变成了某种 完全没用的东西了。 |
| 34:04 So, the brain, which is very old, so heavily conditioned, in disorder. Right? Look, if you have seen those ancient pictures in the caves, or seen the pictures of them, the problem exists between good and bad, evil and right, fighting, fighting, fighting, symbolised, and so on. Man, throughout the ages, has lived with enormous problems and, therefore, there is never a renewal of the brain. We are talking about the transformation, the mutation of the brain cells, themselves, which can only happen, as we went into the other day, when there is direct perception and action, not perception, then later on action, which only creates a problem. 35:35 The insight into any problem, into any issue – insight, which is not memory, which is not an intuition, which is not a something that you have stored up and act, insight is not a continuous thing. It’s only from moment to moment. When it happens, there’s an insight into it there’s action in it and – resolve. | 34:04 所以，人类的大脑是非常古老的， 它是如此深受制约，这个大脑处于混乱之中。 对吧？ 你瞧，如果你曾经看过那些洞穴里的古老壁画， 或者曾经看过这些壁画的图片， （你就会发现）那些善与恶之间的问题、 正义与邪恶的问题， 不停地战斗、战斗、战斗， 它们以象征符号等形式呈现。 人类世世代代以来 一直带着大量的问题而生活着， 因此，大脑从来就没有「更新」过。 我们这里在说的是 脑细胞本身的转变、突变。 而要这种「突变」发生 ——就如我们前几天所探讨过的—— 它只有当有了直接的洞察与行动才行， 但不是先有洞察，之后再去行动 ——这样做只会制造出问题。 35:35 而是去洞察任何问题、任何议题 ——这种「洞察」并不是记忆、也不是“直觉”， 它不是某种你储存积累起来、 然后再据此行动的东西， 「洞察」并不是一个「延续」的东西。 它只是一刻接一刻地出现。 当某事物发生了，立即就洞察它， 在这之中就会有「行动」——然后问题就解决了。 |
| 36:25 So, we are talking about the nature of our action during the day and that same action taking place during the night. When there is complete action during the day, which means no disorder, then the brain becomes, during the night, you know, it can function totally differently. We’re going to go into that when we talk about meditation. | 36:25 因此，我们正在谈论 我们白天时候的行动的本质， 而同样的行为活动 也会在夜晚（睡眠时）发生。 然而当白天的时候有了完全彻底的行动 ——它意味着我们没有「混乱失序」， 那么在夜晚（睡眠时），大脑就会变得 你懂的，它就会以截然不同的方式运作了 ——我们会在探讨「冥想」的时候 来深入探究这一点。 |
| 37:02 Then, also, we should understand the whole nature, the whole concept man has of time. There’s not only the time according to the sun, but also, psychologically, inwardly, we have developed time. Right? ‘I will do this tomorrow. I will arrive at a state of beatitude, or happiness, or enlightenment’ – or whatever you like to call it – ‘Give me time, give me a sense of practice, discipline and I will have it.’ Time, which is to evolve. You understand? ‘I am this. I will, through time, evolve.’ 38:23 So, there is the question of evolution, which means time. Perhaps, man has developed this idea of evolution from watching a little bush grow into an enormous tree, the baby into manhood, the developing of a muscle – that muscle is weak but practice, exercise and it gets strong. So, this idea of evolution, growing, psychologically, thought has taken it over and said, ‘I need time to become something.’ I don’t know if you are following this. Not me, you’re watching yourself. Is that a fact? 39:41 We have accepted it. We live by it. We are accustomed to it. It’s our habit: ‘I can’t do this,’ psychologically, ‘Tomorrow, I’ll work at it. I will try,’ which means, you have developed a duality: ‘I am this, but I will be that. ’ Right? ‘I am angry, but I’ll get over it,’ which is, the little seed growing into an enormous tree, the baby growing to manhood, the little bird or the little animal which hasn’t the strength to walk, run, will take time. So, that same observation has entered into the psychological field and there we say we’ll evolve, we will become. 41:00 Is that so? You understand? That is, there is physical time and we have cultivated the psychological time. Now, why have we created psychological time? You’re following all this? You know, the baby is crying in the nursery and you’re half asleep and you instantly wake up and run to the baby. Right? The mothers and the fathers know about this. You might say, ‘How do you know about it?’ Because I’ve watched, I’ve taken care of a baby for a couple of weeks, for four or five days, I know about it. 42:11 Not my baby, somebody else’s baby. Probably, when you are looking after a baby, you do it much more attentively than the mother! So, in the same intensity, with the same urgency, with the same immediate action – you don’t let the baby cry, keep on, you jump out of bed and run, change its diaper – so, in the same way, look at this problem, with the same urgency, at this question. Which is, why has man created, cultivated this psychological time, which he calls ‘evolution,’ which is, ‘I will be better. I will attain’ 43:22 – why? And when you have that spirit everybody is willing to exploit it. Right? The gurus are excellent at this exploitation, the priests are excellent. And, of course, the politicians love this – why? What is the truth about it? Please, listen to what I am suggesting. What is the truth about it? Is truth a matter of argument? Is truth a matter of opinion? Is truth a matter of experience, arguing, opinion, knowledge, hoping you will find truth? Will these things point out what truth is? 44:45 Or is truth not related to thought, not related to memory, not related to past experiences – and so on and so on? You understand my question? Because if truth is related to the past, it is time-binding. Right? I wonder if you understand all this. Or is truth something entirely different? And to find out the truth, whether there is psychological time at all, will you argue about it, the pros and cons, and the clever quotations, people saying, ‘It is,’ people saying, ‘It’s not.’ 45:42 Or you want to find the truth of it, so you come to it without any prejudice – right? – without any conclusion, without being attached to this idea of evolution, which means truth can only take place when there is absolute freedom to observe. Naturally. | 37:02 此外，我们同样也要来了解一下 「时间」的全部本质， 以及人类对于「时间」的整个概念。 存在的不仅仅只有 依据太阳位置而来的「时间」， 我们同样也在心理层面、在内心 发展出了“时间”的概念。 是吧？ “我明天将会去做这件事。 我将会达到那种至福、喜乐或开悟的境界” ——或者无论你喜欢把那种境界称为什么—— “给我时间，让我去练习、去戒律约束自己， 然后我就会拥有它。 ” 时间——它就是去“进化”。 你们能理解吗？ “我现在是这个样子的。 但随着时间的推移，我会发展进步。” 38:23 所以这里存在着一个关于“进化”的问题 ——而“进化”就意味着「时间」。 人们之所以会发展出这种“进化”的理念， 或许是因为他们看到了一丛小灌木 成长为了一棵参天大树， 婴儿也会长大成人， 以及肌肉会变得发达 ——肌肉一开始很羸弱，但通过训练、 锻炼，肌肉就会变得强壮。 所以，这种关于「进化」 和「成长」的想法， 或许在心理上已经…… 思想已经借用了它，然后说， “我需要时间来变成某某东西。 ” 我不知道你们是否理解了这些。 不是理解我，你正在观察你自己。 这是不是一个事实？ 39:41 我们已经接受了它。我们以它为准则而生活。 我们已经习惯了它。 它成了我们的习惯： 我们内心会认为“我不能这么做”， “明天我将会去处理解决它，我会努力的”， 这意味着：你已经发展出了一种「二元性」： “我是这样的，但我将会成为那样的。 ” 对吧？ “我很愤怒，但我将会克服这种愤怒”， 也就是说：一颗小种子成长为了一棵大树， 婴儿长大成人了，小鸟或者小动物 它们没有什么力量，从走路到奔跑， 这需要花费时间。 所以，同样的这种「观察」 也进入到了心理领域， 在这个领域中，我们也说： 我们将会发展进步，我们将会成为某某某。 41:00 然而是这样的吗？ 你们理解了吗？ 换句话说：存在着物理上的时间， 然后我们又发展培养出了「心理上的时间」。 那么，为什么我们要创造出 心理上的时间呢？ 你们跟上所有这一切了吗？ 你瞧，小宝宝在育儿室里哭了， 这时半睡半醒的你就会立刻醒来， 然后冲到宝宝身边。 是这样吧？ 为人父母的都知道它。 但你也许会问，“你又是怎么知道它的？ ” 因为我曾经观察过，我曾经照顾了一个宝宝 好几周的时间 应该是四五天的时间，所以我很清楚它。 42:11 不是我的宝宝，而是别人家的宝宝。 也许当你照顾宝宝的时候， 你也许会照顾得比他（她）妈妈还用心！ 所以，我们要以同样的强度、 同样的急迫感、 同样的即刻行动 ——你不会让宝宝继续哭下去， 你会跳下床，冲到他（她）身边， 给他（她）换尿布 ——所以，请你们以同样的方式 去观察这个难题， 以同样的急迫感 去观察这个问题。 也就是：为什么人会创造出、培养出 这种「心理上的时间」， 而他会把这称为“进化（发展进步）”，也就是： 我将会变得更好。我将会实现它。 43:22 为什么呢？ 而当你有了这种心态， 那么每一个人都会来利用它。 对吧？ 那些古鲁非常擅长于这种剥削， 那些祭司牧师都是个中好手。 当然了，那些政客也很喜欢它。 所以这是为什么呢？ 这个问题的真相是什么？ 请你们听好我所暗示的东西。 它的真相是什么呢？ 「真相」和争论论据有关系吗？ 「真相」和观点理念有关系吗？ 「真相」和经验有关系吗？ 争论、观点、知识， 希望由此能够找到真相？ 这些东西能够向你指出 真相是什么吗？ 44:45 还是说，真相无关思想、无关记忆、 无关于过去的经验，等等 等等？ 你们听懂我的问题了吗？ 因为如果「真相」和「过去」有关， 那它就是受时间束缚的。 对吧？ 我不知道你们是否理解了这一切。 还是说「真相」是某种完全不同的事物？ 而要发现这个「真相」——也就是 究竟有没有“心理上的时间” 你们会为此而争论不休吗？ 去赞成或反对，去聪明地引经据典， 有些人说“它存在”， 而有些人说“它不存在”。 45:42 或者，你会想要去发现这个问题的真相， 所以你会没有任何偏见地去面对处理它 ——对吧？ —— 没有任何结论，也不执著于 那种“进化”的概念， 这意味着：只有当有了能够去观察的绝对自由， 真相才会显现。 这也是很自然的事。 |
| 46:24 So, can you so observe without your conclusions, of saying, ‘Yes, it is possible,’ ‘It’s not possible,’ ‘What nonsense you’re talking about,’ or finding out from books, from your teachers – all that, throwing all that out, free to look. That is, to have an insight into the problem, into this issue, why man has cultivated the psychological time. When there is insight into it, the brain cells which have been conditioned by the idea of evolution, psychological evolution, the brain cells themselves undergo a change. 47:25 Don’t accept what we are talking about. Find out. Test it. That means you have to be free to observe, to observe without any wish, any longing, any pressure – you know, to observe, as you observe a lovely flower. Then you will find that time, psychologically, has ended. There is no becoming, or ‘I am’ – which is the same. | 46:24 所以，你能否这样子去观察： 那就是没有你的各种结论， 说，“是的，它可能存在”， 或者“它不可能存在”， 或者说，“你在胡说些什么东西”， 或者从那些书本中、 从你的老师那里找到答案——等等这些， 把所有这些东西都抛开， 自由地去看。 换句话说，去洞察那个问题、 去洞察那个议题： 即 为什么人类要发展培养出“心理上的时间”。 当你对此有了洞察， 那么一直以来被“进化”概念 被“心理上进化”概念所制约的脑细胞， 这些脑细胞本身就会发生改变。 47:25 请不要接受我们正在谈论的东西。 去发现真相，去试验一下它。 这意味着你必须能够自由地去观察， 没有任何愿望、没有渴望、 没有压力地去观察 ——你知道的，去观察， 就像你观察一朵可爱的花一样。 那时你就会发现：时间 ——心理上的时间——已经结束了， 那时就没有“成为什么什么”了，或者“我是什么什么”了 ——这两者是一样的。 |
| 48:17 Then, also, we have to find out, as we said, what is space. It is important to have space. Nothing can mature, grow, alive, if you don’t have a space. Physically, it’s becoming more and more… less and less space. We live in cities – unless you happen to live in the country and I hope you do – if you live in cities there is hardly any space, physically. And, perhaps, out of that lack of space, there’s violence. That violence is increasing day by day, and perhaps, one of the reasons of this multiplication of violence is perhaps, that there are no wars. You understand? 49:33 If you had a war, you can go and explode in violence. Now, you have no wars, you are crowded in cities, you live, practically, in a drawer – these high-rise buildings – and so you have no space. And, also, you have no space in your mind because you’re all the time occupied with something or other. Right? The wife with the cooking, with the utensils, cleaning and all that, the husband occupied with the office, with whatever he does, or he’s occupied with his own ambition, with his own vanity, with his own success. And she with her own beauty, with her own enjoyments and so on, with sex – occupied. 50:43 Have you noticed how occupied you are? And your guru tells you, ‘Be more occupied. Only not with that, with this.’ And you, so gullible, say, ‘All right, I will do that,’ which is still occupation. I am not reacting to the gurus. I was a guru myself, long ago – thank God! – and that’s all too silly. You have been under the pressure of the priests for two thousand years in this country and you’re bored with it and you take on the guru from the East, who is equally the same and you love that, you think you’re achieving some nonsense. | 48:17 此外，我们同样也必须去发现—— 就如我们说过的——什么是「空间」。 拥有「空间」是很重要的。 如果你没有「空间」， 那么任何事物都将无法成熟、成长、充满活力。 外在物理层面，我们正在变得越来越…… 我们的空间正在变得越来越小。 我们生活在城市里 ——除非你碰巧生活在乡村地区， 我希望你是如此—— 因为如果你生活在城市里， 那么外在物理层面，你几乎是没有什么空间的。 而也许因为这种「空间的缺乏」， 便会滋生暴力。 那种暴力正在日益增长， 而造成这种暴力行为倍增的 原因之一或许就是 我们没有战争了。 你们能理解吗？ 49:33 如果你们有战争，那你们就可以去战场上 痛快发泄暴力了。 然而现在，你们没有了战争， 你们挤在城市里面， 你们几乎可以说是生活在“鸽子笼”里 ——那些高层居民楼房—— 所以你们并没有什么空间。 另外，你们的头脑中也没有「空间」， 因为你们始终在忙碌于 这样或那样的事情。 对吧？ 妻子在忙碌于做饭菜、洗碗筷、 打扫卫生，等等， 而丈夫则忙碌于办公室工作， 或者无论什么事情， 或者他会忙碌于去实现 自己的野心、自己的虚荣心、 和他自身的成功。 而妻子则会忙碌于让自己变美、 各种享乐 等等， 享受性爱的快乐——总是在忙碌着。 50:43 你有没有注意过你是多么的忙碌？ 然而你的古鲁却告诉你说，“你要更忙碌一些， 不仅要做这个练习，也要做那个练习。 ” 而你是如此容易受骗上当， 你说，“好吧，我会去做的” ——这也是一种“忙碌”。 我不是在针对那些古鲁而发言。 我本人很久以前也曾经是一位古鲁 ——谢天谢地！ —— 所有那一切都太愚蠢了。 在这个国家里，两千年以来， 你们一直处于 那些神职人员的压力之下， 你们已经对他们感到厌倦， 于是你们开始迎接 那些来自于东方世界的古鲁 ——然而这些古鲁也是一路货色， 但你们却很喜欢他们，然后认为自己达到了某种“境界” ——那些荒谬愚蠢的东西。 |
| 51:58 So, if one sees space is necessary – obviously – what will you do? That is, space between you and another is necessary, which doesn’t mean isolation from another. Space. Space implies independence. Space implies non-attachment. Space implies a consideration for each other, to allow space. And you must have space in the mind, which means, the mind never completely – never – be occupied with anything. Can you do it? Test it out. Test it. Don’t accept what the... – you’re not accepting what I’m saying because I’m not here. And I mean it. The speaker, K, is not here. You’re learning from yourself, by observing, so there is no authority. | 51:58 所以，如果你看到「空间」是必不可少的东西 ——这也是显而易见的—— 那么你会怎么做呢？ 换句话说：你和他人之间的「空间」 是有必要的， 但这并不意味着和他人孤立隔绝。 而是拥有「空间」。 「空间」意味着「独立」。 「空间」意味着「不执著依恋」。 「空间」意味着考虑关心对方， 允许对方有自己的“空间”。 而你的头脑中必须要有「空间」， 这意味着，头脑永远不能 ——绝对不能 被任何事物所占据。 你能够这样去做吗？ 去测试一下它。 去试验一下。 不要接受演讲者的 ——你们并没有在接受 我所说的东西，因为「我」并不在这里。 我是说真的。 这位演讲者——K（克里希那穆提）——他并不在这里。 你正在通过观察而自己去学习， 因此这里并不存在什么权威。 |
| 53:48 So, why is the mind occupied, so endlessly? The businessman with his business, the artist with his painting, the pianist with his – you follow? And you and I, ordinary people, oh, a dozen occupations – why? Is it fear of not being occupied? If you are not occupied, what? What are you then? You follow? If you’re not thinking about yourself, how you look, how you dress, how you walk, your feelings, your desires, your ambitions, your vanity, your arrogance and all the rest of it, if you’re not occupied with all that, you might be occupied with the United Nations, which is the same thing. 54:48 I won’t go into the United Nations, it’s not very pleasant. So, we are occupied with something or another – sex, good or bad, and all that – why? Is it because – please, look, find out, ask, find out – is it because if you’re not occupied, you are absolutely nothing? And, realising I’m nothing I say, ‘My God, I must fill that, I’m frightened.’ | 53:48 所以，为什么头脑要如此 永不停息地忙碌呢？ 商人会忙于他的生意， 艺术家会忙于他的绘画， 钢琴家会忙于他的……——你们跟上了吗？ 而你和我……我们这些普通人， 噢，也有一大堆要忙的事情——为什么呢？ 是不是因为我们害怕无事可忙？ 如果你没有什么事情可忙，那你是什么呢？ 那时你又算是什么玩意儿呢？ 你们跟上了吗？ 如果你不考虑关心你自己， 你长得怎么样，你的穿着怎么样， 你是如何走路的，你的感受如何， 你的欲望、你的抱负、 你的虚荣、你的傲慢自大， 等等这些， 如果你不被所有这些东西所“填满占据”， 你们可能也会忙碌于“联合国” ——这是同一回事。 54:48 我就不深入探讨“联合国”了 ——它并不是很令人愉快的话题。 所以，我们在忙碌于 这样或那样的事情 ——性爱，好事或坏事，等等—— 为什么呢？ 它是不是因为……——请你们去观察一下， 去发现、去询问、去搞清楚它—— 是不是因为如果你没有什么事可忙， 那你就啥都不是了？ 而在意识到自己“啥都不是”以后， 我便对自己说，“我的上帝啊， 我必须要充实自己，我感到很害怕。” |
| 55:30 So, can you be nothing, actually, which you are? You may call yourself by a name, you have a particular face and so on, bank account, house, but strip all that, what are you? Strip your knowledge, your occupation, your endeavours, all that – those are memories, words. Remove the words, remove the memory – consciously, you know, not become insane or lose your memory, or senility but actually, when you’re alive, full of energy, which is being wasted in occupation, when that is not occupied, when there is no occupation, there is tremendous energy in nothingness. Test it out. Don’t accept a thing from anybody. | 55:30 所以，你能否“什么都不是”呢？ 实事求是，这就是你的真实本质。 你或许有个自己的名字， 你有一张与众不同的脸，等等， 有自己的银行账号、房子， 然而剥除掉所有这些东西以后， 你又是什么呢？ 去除掉你的知识、你的工作、 你的努力，等等这些 ——这些东西只是「记忆」和「文字词语」。 拿掉这些文字词语，拿掉这些记忆 ——有意识地拿掉它们， 你知道的，不是变得精神错乱， 或者失忆，或者老年痴呆， 而是实实在在的，当你活着的时候， 当你充满了能量 但这些能量却被浪费在各种“忙碌”上了， 当你不再忙碌于什么事情， 当你没有什么事情可忙时， 那么在这种「空无」中， 就会产生出巨大惊人的能量。 请你们去试验一下它。 而不要接受任何人的任何说法。 |
| 56:54 So, we said problems, time, space. Man or woman, doesn’t matter – when I say man it includes woman, so don’t be… Women’s Lib – when we say man and woman, they have always sought power – power over themselves, controlling themselves, which gives a certain sense of power in oneself, if you can completely control yourself – you understand? – you feel very strong, a sense of power, or the power of a politician whom you have elected, or, like in the totalitarian states, they have assumed power. And power is one of the problems of man – you understand? | 56:54 所以，我们说了：问题、时间、空间。 人……也包括女人——这不重要 当我说“人（man）”的时候，它也包括了“女人（woman）”， 所以请不要……扯到什么妇女解放运动上去， 我们说：男人和女人，他们总是在寻求「权力」 ——对于自身的掌控力，能够控制他们自己， 这会让一个人的内心产生出某种力量感 ——如果你可以完全控制住你自己的话， 你们能理解它吗？ 你会感到自己很强大，有一种力量感， 或者是你们选举出来的那个政治家 所拥有的权力， 或者就像在那些极权主义国家中一样， 某些人已经掌握了权力。 而「权力」也是人类的问题之一 ——这个能理解吧？ |
| 58:16 And there is the other power, which is clairvoyance, reading thoughts, all that – so-called the occult. You understand? So, there are these two types of power: physical, psychological power over another, the power that comes when there’s complete, absolute control of oneself, and then there is the power, the hidden power, persuasive power, the power of propaganda, the power of authority and those who are in authority are always seeking to entrench themselves more and more in power. Right? Why does man demand power? You understand? 59:37 Why? Why do you want power over another? Wife over husband, or husband over the wife, or the girl over the boy and so on, why? Which is, power means arrogance, power implies vanity, ‘I know, you don’t know. I am the boss and you’re not. I am the acknowledged guru, and you, poor chap, you’re a disciple down below’ – why? Why do we accept this thing? Because that is destroying man, you follow? Because, again, it emphasises the ‘me’ the ‘me’ which has identified itself with a nation, with a group, with a country and in that identification I feel very strong. 1:00:59 You follow? All that follows. And man has never been able to solve this question of power, which means man doesn’t know what it means to have humility. You understand? Because without humility, you can’t investigate, you can’t look, without humility, you can’t love another, without humility, there’s no compassion. The man who has power tries to be compassionate, tries to love. That’s, obviously, nonsense. Like a man who is ambitious, he cannot love. | 58:16 此外，还有着另外一种“权力” ——也就是 千里眼、读心术， 等等这类东西——所谓的“神力”。 你们能理解吧？ 因此，存在着这两种类型的「权力」： 外在物理上的、以及心理上的 掌控他人的权力， 这种权力是伴随着 完全绝对的自我控制而来的， 此外，还有着那种隐藏的权力、 那种说服你的权力、 宣传的权力、权威的权力， 而这些权威人士总是在寻求 不断巩固自己的权力地位。 对吧？ 为什么人类需要权力呢？ 你们明白这个问题吗？ 59:37 为什么？为什么你想要有 支配掌控他人的权力？ 妻子支配丈夫的权力， 或者丈夫支配妻子的权力， 或者女朋友支配掌控男朋友的权力，等等， 为什么？ 那就是：权力意味着傲慢自大， 权力意味着虚荣自负， “我知道，但你并不知道。 我是老板，但你并不是。 我可是人们公认的古鲁， 而你是个可怜的家伙， 你只是一个卑微的弟子而已” ——为什么会这样呢？ 为什么我们会接受这样的事情呢？ 因为它正在摧毁人类， 你们理解了吗？ 因为它同样强调了“我”， 这个“我”已经把自己 认同于某个民族、团体、国家， 在这种认同之中，我感到自己很强大。 1:00:59 你们跟上了吗？所有这些东西都随之而来了。 而人类从未能够解决 这个关于「权力」的问题， 这表明人们并不知道 拥有「谦卑」是什么意思。 你们能理解吗？ 因为没有「谦卑」， 你便无法去探究，你便无法去「看」， 没有谦卑，你就无法去爱别人， 没有谦卑，就没有「慈悲」。 那个拥有权力的人 会试图去变得慈悲、试图去爱。 而这显然是在胡说八道。 就像一个野心勃勃的人是无法去爱的一样。 |
| 1:02:03 So, humility comes into being when you understand the nature of power. You can’t cultivate humility. Then what you are cultivating is vanity under the cloak of humility. Right? | 1:02:03 所以，当你了解了权力的本质， 那时「谦卑」就会出现。 你是无法去“培育”谦卑的。 当你这么做时，你所培育的只是 披着“谦卑”外衣的虚荣自负。 对吧？ |
| 1:02:29 So. And the same thing, man now, it’s one of the fashions, or a passing phase, to talk about the occult, wanting to find out. The speaker – I’m sorry to bring the speaker into this – knows quite a bit about all that. They’re part of the senses. If you’re highly sensitive, you can almost read somebody – no? Of course. If you’re sensitive to your boyfriend or your husband, or your wife, you know exactly, almost quickly before she tells you something, or he tells you something. And you can cultivate that – you follow? – and have that peculiar power of reading people’s thought. 1:03:32 Please, when the speaker is talking about this, he’s talking of what he knows, what has happened to him, and the speaker considers all that childish, absolute childishness. You may be able to read other people’s thought, you may be able to do all kinds of non… or rather extreme sensory perception. Extreme sensory perception – ESP with all the business involved in it. If you are caught in that trap, walk out of it, completely. It’s the most dangerous trap, because it’s only the extension of highly sensitised senses. | 1:02:29 因此，同样的道理，如今人们正在 ——这是一个如今很流行的玩意儿， 或者说是“一时的风潮”。 人们正在谈论“神力”， 他们想要去搞清楚这件事。 演讲者——很抱歉要在演讲中 讲一些关于演讲者的事情了—— 演讲者对那些“神力”是相当了解的。 那些“神力”只是感官感觉的一部分。 如果你高度敏感， 那你就几乎可以“读懂”某人了 ——不能吗？ 当然可以了。 如果你对你的男朋友或者丈夫很敏感、 或者对你的妻子非常敏感， 那么在她（他）要告诉你一些东西之前， 你就可以确切地、几乎是立刻就明白 她（他）要讲的东西了。 你是可以去培养这种能力的 ——你们理解了吗？ —— 然后拥有“读心术”这种奇特的能力。 1:03:32 请注意，当演讲者谈论这些事情的时候， 他是在谈论自己知道的东西， 那些曾经在他身上发生过的事情， 但演讲者将所有这些事情都视为是幼稚的， 它们是彻底幼稚的东西。 你也许可以“读出”别人的想法， 你也许能够去进行各种 或者更确切地说是“极端感官知觉”。 超感官知觉——ESP， 以及它所牵涉到的所有那些生意。 如果你也陷入于这个陷阱中， 那就请你彻底地走出来。 因为它是最危险的陷阱， 因为它只不过就是 高度敏感的感官的进一步发展。 |
| 1:04:58 Then, having established all this in our life – order – which means the art of learning, the art of putting everything in its right place – sex in its right place, money in its right place, everything and you can only do that when there is freedom from thought, which is always creating problems, issues, because thought is limited. So, put thought in its right place. Then we can proceed – or rather, from putting things in their right place, we’re beginning to meditate. Hai capito? Shall I go into all that? Do you want me to go into all this? | 1:04:58 然后，当我们在生活中建立起了这一切后 ——建立起「秩序」以后—— 这意味着「学习的艺术」， 那种将一切事物安放在 它正确合理位置上的艺术 ——把「性」放在它正确的位置上， 把「金钱」放在它正确的位置上，等等一切事物。 而只有当你超脱了「思想」以后， 你才能够做到它 ——因为是「思想」一直在制造着 各种问题与难题， 因为思想是局限的。 所以，请把「思想」放在它正确合理的位置上。 然后我们才能够继续前进 ——或者更确切地说： 在把各种事物安放在正确合理的位置上以后， 我们就开启了「冥想」。 （意大利语）你明白了吗？ 需要我详细讲一下它吗？ 你们想要我来探讨一下所有这些东西吗？ |
| 1:06:07 Most meditation – now, first of all, that’s a new word introduced into the West. Right? It has existed in India for thousands of years, like those trains. So, there are different forms of meditation: from India, the Hindu type of meditation, there is the Buddhist type of meditation, there is the Tibetan type of meditation, there is the Zen meditation, and the gurus that invent something new but along the same line. So, there are different types of meditation in the world. And there is that absurd transcendental meditation with all that nonsense. 1:07:31 So, we’re going to find out what is meditation. We are new – you understand? – we are new to it, we haven’t been conditioned by what people have said about meditation and your practice – all that is too absurd and too childish. But we are going to find out what is meditation, what is implied in it. If you have not put everything in its right place, to find out what is meditation is impossible, because then you will get caught in some illusion. Right? That is, if the mind is not free to look into what is meditation, how can you learn about it, how can you understand it? 1:08:44 You must come to it like a child who goes for the first time to learn how to write. He goes to it fresh, innocent, curious. But if you already say, ‘This is meditation, you must sit in a certain way, you must stand in a certain way, breathe in a certain way’ – then the trivialities become all important. | 1:06:07 绝大多数冥想…… ——现在来看，首先， 它（冥想）是一个 被引入到西方世界的新词汇。 对吧？ 这个词语在印度已经存在了 有数千年之久了， 就像那些火车一样。 存在着各种不同形式的冥想： 有来自于印度的冥想， 那种印度式的冥想， 还有着佛教徒的冥想， 西藏人的冥想， 以及禅宗冥想， 而那些古鲁也在发明一些新的冥想 ——但仍然是换汤不换药的东西。 所以，这个世界上存在着 各种不同类型的冥想。 我们还有着那种荒诞的“超觉静坐” 及其所有的愚蠢行为。 1:07:31 所以我们将要来搞清楚 什么是「冥想」。 而我们对它很陌生……——你们能理解吗？ —— 我们对这个词还很陌生， 我们还没有被那些人们所说的 关于“冥想”的定义 以及你们的（冥想）练习所局限束缚 ——所有那些东西都太荒谬、太幼稚了。 我们将要来发现一下 什么是「冥想」， 「冥想」中包含了哪些内容。 如果你还没有把每一样事物 安放在它正确合适的位置上， 你就不可能发现“什么是冥想”， 因为那样的话，你就会陷入于某种幻想中。 是吧？ 换句话说：如果你的头脑在尚未自由的情况下 去探究“什么是冥想”， 你又如何能够学习它呢？ 你又如何能够了解它呢？ 1:08:44 你必须要像个孩子那样去面对处理它 ——像孩子第一次学习如何写字那样。 孩子会崭新地、天真地、充满好奇地 去学习它。 但如果你已经下结论说，“这就是冥想， 你必须要以特定的方式打坐， 你必须要以特定的方式站立， 以特定的方式呼吸” ——那这些细枝末节的琐事 就会变得无比重要。 |
| 1:09:16 So, we’re going to find out what is meditation. And why is it so important to meditate? Why has the East given such extraordinary importance to it, which is now, gradually sweeping over the West? It’s a very complex problem, this. All right, if you have time and the energy to listen, listen, if you don’t, it doesn’t matter. You can observe that the Grecian evolution, Grecian culture from Greece, ancient Greece, has swept over the West – I’m not a historian but you can see it, you can observe it. To them the intellect mattered enormously: their theories, their discoveries, their arguments, their democracy. 1:10:39 You follow? That is, thought was tremendously important for them. That is, thought being measure. Go into it. You can see it. Thought is measure. That is, measure means from here to there. Also, that means comparing, measuring. So, the West has cultivated enormous technology. If you had no measure, there would be no technology. Right? Obviously. And the other side, the whole Asiatic – it really began in India – the Indians said, ‘All measurement’ – the ancient Hindus, not the modern ones, they’re all as crooked as the rest of the world, including the gurus – the ancients have said, ‘Measurement is illusion’ – consider it, see the reason of it. 1:12:07 They said, ‘To find the immeasurable, the mind must be free of measure.’ One side, measurement, the other side, non-measurement. Right? To find that which is eternal, which is timeless, which is immeasurable, which is nameless, which is Jehovah, which is God, which is Brahman, and all the rest of it, there must be no measure. That means no comparison. They don’t say that, I’m saying it, the speaker is saying it – no comparison. | 1:09:16 所以我们将要去搞清楚 什么是冥想。 以及为什么「冥想」是如此重要？ 为什么东方世界会赋予冥想 以如此极度的重要性， 「冥想」如今正在逐渐席卷西方世界。 它是非常复杂的——这个关于「冥想」的问题。 好吧，如果你有时间和精力 听这些东西，那就听， 如果你没有时间精力，也没有关系。 你可以去观察一下古希腊演变发展的历史， 那种来自于希腊——古代希腊——的希腊文化， 这种文化已经横扫了西方世界 ——我并不是一个历史学家， 但你可以看到它，你可以观察到这种现象。 对于西方人来说，「智力」变得无比重要： 他们的各种理论、发现、论据、民主思想。 1:10:39 你们跟上了吗？ 也就是说，「思想」对他们来说 是极其重要的。 换句话说，思想就是「度量」。 去深入研究一下。 你也能看到这一点。 思想就是「度量」。 而「度量」就意味着“从这里到那里” 它同样也意味着「比较」与「测量」。 所以，西方世界已经发展培育出了 极其惊人的科学技术。 因为如果你们没有「度量」， 那就不会有「科技」了。 对吧？ 这是显而易见的。 而另一边，整个亚洲世界 ——它其实是从印度开始的—— 印度人说，“所有的「量度」 ——是古代印度人说的，不是现代印度人， 因为现代印度人和世界上其他地方的人一样狡诈， 包括那些“古鲁”—— 古印度人曾经说过，“「量度」是幻觉”—— 仔细去思考下它，看到它的道理所在。 1:12:07 他们说，“要找到那个「不可度量之物」， 头脑就必须先摆脱掉「度量」。” 所以一边是「量度」，而另一边是「无量度」。 对吧？ 去找到那个永恒的、超越时间的、 不可度量的、不可名状的事物 ——也就是「耶和华」、「上帝」、「梵」， 等等这类东西， 我们必须没有「度量」才行。 这也意味着：没有「比较」 ——这个不是他们说的，是我说的， 这个是演讲者说的 ——它意味着没有「比较」。 |
| 1:12:54 So, the West laying complete, all emphasis on thought, memory, knowledge, experience and through knowledge ascending more and more and more. And the other said, ‘No measurement,’ but to find that which is immeasurable they began to think about it, they began to evolve, grow – you follow? – practise, do this, don’t do that – which is all based on thought. Only, here technology, there non-technology. 1:13:39 But technology is now conquering India, too. So, you have this problem. Can the mind be free of all measurement? Measurement is to think in terms of the past or the future. The present being measured by the past, modified by that measurement and that measurement continuing into the future, which is our life. Measurement. Yesterday, I was, today I may change, tomorrow it will be something different. | 1:12:54 所以，西方世界是极其强调思想、 记忆、知识和经验的， 然后通过知识来不断地提升再提升。 然而另一边却在说，“不要量度”， 然而为了去找到那个「不可度量之物」， 他们却开始去「思考」它了， 他们开始去发展进化、去成长 ——你们跟上了吗？ —— 去修炼，去做这个，而不去做那个 ——而这些全都是建立在「思想」之上的。 只不过在你们这里，它成了科学技术， 而在他们那里，并没有产生科学技术罢了。 1:13:39 但科学技术如今也正在征服印度。 所以你们有着这样的问题。 那么头脑是否能够摆脱掉所有的「量度」呢？ 「量度」就是根据「过去」或「未来」而思考。 「现在」正在被「过去」所度量， 并被这种「量度」所修改， 然后这种「量度」又会延续至「未来」 ——这就是我们的生活。 「量度」——昨天我是这样的， 但今天我也许会有所改变， 而明天我又会像换了个人似的。 |
| 1:14:36 So, the movement of meditation is, to live in daily life without measurement. Which means, without the movement of thought, which is measure. The ending of time can only come into being, which is the ending of time as thought, as movement, all that, when thought has discovered its own limitation – right? – and puts it in its right place. Are you following all this? It has been one of our problems, of man, and woman, he has been always asking whether there is an end to time, stopping of time. Not the stopping of time in science fiction, which you can imagine and all the rest of it but actually, the ending of thought, which is the movement of measure, which is the movement of time. 1:16:18 I don’t know if it interests you – not interests, it’s part of life. As we said, the art of listening, the art of seeing, the art of learning, consists in understanding the word ‘art.’ ‘Art’ means to put everything in its right place, the actual dictionary meaning of that word. When everything has its right place, then the mind is completely at rest. Right? Because – obvious. | 1:14:36 而冥想的运动则是 没有「量度」地去过日常生活。 这意味着：没有思想的活动 ——思想活动就是「度量」。 「时间的终结」何时才会到来 ——这里终结的是 作为思想、活动等等的「时间」—— 只有当思想发现了其自身的局限性时， 时间才会终结。 是吧？ 然后它就会将「时间」安放在正确合理的位置上。 你们跟上所有这些了吗？ 这是我们一直以来的问题之一 ——既包括男人、也包括女人， 人们一直在问：是否存在时间的终结？ 时间停止。 不是科幻小说里的那种“时间停止” ——那种你可以去想象的玩意儿，等等。 而是实实在在的，去终结「思想」 ——「思想」就是度量的运动、 就是时间的运动。 1:16:18 我不清楚你们是否对它有兴趣 ——不是兴趣的问题，它就是生活的一部分。 就如我们说过的：聆听的艺术、 观察的艺术、学习的艺术， 在于去了解「艺术」这个词。 「艺术」意味着将每一样事物 都放在它正确的位置上 ——这是这个词在词典中的实际含义。 当每一样事物都在自己正确合适的位置上， 那么头脑就会完全「静止」了。 对吧？因为……——这是很显然的。 |
| 1:17:17 So, from that there arises the question, what is awareness, and what is attention? Is awareness part of attention? Is awareness part of concentration? You aren’t tired of all this? | 1:17:17 所以，从这之中就产生出了一个问题， 什么是「觉察」？ 以及 什么是「注意」？ 「觉察」是不是「注意」的一部分？ 「觉察」是不是「专注」的一部分？ 你们是不是对这些东西有点厌倦了？ |
| 1:17:44 Questioner: No. | 1:17:44 提问者：没有厌倦。 |
| 1:17:45 K: All right, I don’t know, you should be – doesn’t matter. Or is attention nothing to do with concentration or with awareness? So, we’ll have to examine those three things because – not because – meditation is involved in this. Awareness is to be aware of the things around you. Right? To be aware of the mountains, the rivers, the shadows, the snow, the birds, the ravens, the people, the things they wear, all the things – so on, so on – to be aware of this tent, the shape of it. But in that awareness, your prejudices enter, your opinions enter: ‘This isn’t right, should be that way, I don’t like that colour but I like the other colour’ – you follow? 1:19:00 You’re aware but this constant choice, constant evaluation. So, can you observe, can you be aware without reaction, which doesn’t mean that you don’t have reactions. Just to observe the mountain without any reaction, to look at it, just to look at it. The moment you bring in your prejudice, anxiety, all the rest, you’re not aware. You’re caught in your own net. | 1:17:45 克：行吧，反正我也不知道，但你们应该 是有点厌倦了——无所谓了。 还是说，「注意」和「专注」或「觉察」 是完全没关系的？ 所以我们必须要来检视一下这三个东西。 因为……——不是“因为”—— 这其中就涉及到了「冥想」。 「觉察」就是感知到你周围附近的事物。 对吧？ 感知到那些高山、河流、影子、 白雪、鸟儿、乌鸦与人群， 他们的着装，所有的事物 ——等等 等等—— 感知到这个帐篷，它的形状。 然而在这种觉察中，你的偏见会介入进来， 你的评价会介入进来： “这样子不对，应该那样子才对， 我不喜欢这个颜色，我喜欢另一种颜色” ——你们跟上了吗？ 1:19:00 你在觉察着，然而却一直有着 这种不断的选择和评价。 所以，你能否去观察、你能否去觉察 而没有「反应」？ 这并不意味着你不会产生各种反应。 只是去观察那座高山 而没有任何反应， 看着它，只是看着它。 因为一旦你带入了你的偏见、焦虑 等等， 那你就不是在「觉察」了。你已陷入于 你自身的“罗网”之中。 |
| 1:19:49 Concentration implies – I must be quick because the time will pass – concentration implies exclusion and giving all your energy on a particular point. Right? ‘Don’t look out of the window but pay attention to the book’ – that’s what we’re told in school. But if you’re the teacher and say, ‘Look what you’re… when you’re looking out of the window, do look at it, completely, don’t say… don’t be frightened of looking.’ You understand? | 1:19:49 「专注」意味着 ——我必须要讲快点了，因为时间不等人—— 「专注」就暗示着排斥一切事物， 然后将你所有的能量精力 聚焦于某一个点上。 对吧？ “不要看窗外的东西，将注意力集中在书本上” ——这就是我们在学校的时候被告知的东西。 但如果你是老师，然后说， “去观察你所 当你望向窗外时， 那就完全投入地去看窗外的事物， 而不要说…… 不要害怕看窗外。 ” 你们理解了吗？ |
| 1:20:36 So, attention is freedom from every form of evaluation, measurement. Because in that, there is no centre. I don’t know if you have discovered it for yourself – if you attend completely to something, there is no centre. There is no ‘me’ being attentive – that’s too silly. If you see that, I mean see the fact of it, then you realise there is no practice, there is no system to be aware, to attend, to concentrate. That is all, again, so extraordinarily silly. The moment you see, understand this whole business of awareness, concentration and attention, then you’re attentive. 1:21:48 That attention may last two seconds or five minutes, and you may lose that attention but don’t go back and say, ‘I must be attentive.’ You understand? Attention came because you knew what it means. You follow? There was understanding, deep understanding – not intellectual – of what attention is. It came, naturally. But if you begin to say, ‘I must have constant attention during the day,’ you’re being terribly greedy and it’s no longer attention. It’s a desire to have something which you call attention. | 1:20:36 所以，「注意」就是摆脱掉 所有形式的评价与量度。 因为在那之中，是没有“中心”的。 我不知道你们有没有自己发现这一点 ——如果你全神贯注于某个东西， 那时是没有“中心”的。 那时没有一个“我”在集中注意力 ——否则就太蠢了。 如果你看到了这一点， 我的意思是看到了它的真相， 那么你就会意识到：不可能会有什么练习、 或修炼体系能训练我们去觉察、 去注意、去专注。 练习或体系同样也是无比愚蠢的。 一旦你看清并理解了 关于觉察、专注和注意力的全部内容， 那时你就会拥有「注意」了。 1:21:48 那种「注意」也许能持续 两秒钟或者五分钟， 然后你可能就会失去这种「注意」了， 但不要回过头去，然后说， “我必须要保持注意”。 你们能理解吗？ 「注意」之所以能出现， 是因为你明白了它的含义。 你们跟上了吗？ 你有了「了解」、深刻的了解 ——不是智性上的了解—— 你了解了什么是「注意」。 于是它（注意）自然就来了。 但如果你开始说，“我必须在白天的时候 持续保持注意”， 那你就太贪了， 由此它就不再是「注意」了。 它成了一种欲望：想要去拥有 那个你称为“注意”的东西。 |
| 1:22:44 So, when there is such attention the mind, because there is no centre from which to attend, the mind is completely quiet. Not that you train the mind to be quiet, which all of them practise – to be quiet. Or often one has heard this phrase, ‘I must have peace of mind’ – they’ll have a piece of mind but it’s not peace. You understand? They’ve just a little piece of something. | 1:22:44 所以，当有了这样的「注意」之后， 那么头脑 ——因为那时已经没有一个 主动去“注意”的中心了—— 由此头脑就会完全安静下来。 不是你训练头脑变得安静， 而人们全都在进行这种训练 ——训练让自己安静下来。 或者我们时常会听到这句话： “我必须要获得心灵的平静” ——他们可以让头脑安静下来 但这并不是「平静」。 你们能理解吗？他们只是获得了 “一点点”平静。 |
| 1:23:30 So, when there is complete order in our life, which is the beginning of meditation, and one understands the nature of awareness, concentration and attention, then all effort has come to an end – all effort. When you put everything in order, there’s no effort. So, the mind becomes extraordinarily quiet – uninvited, not cultivated, something totally new. And religion – not this nonsense that’s going on around us with all their priests and ceremonies and all that circus that goes on, then religion means the ending of the self, the ‘me.’ It’s only then that the mind can be absolutely, irrevocably quiet and therefore, silent. 1:25:03 Which means the ending of thought as time and measure. Then, if the mind has gone that far, in that silence which is vast space and energy there is totally a state which cannot be put into words. But if you put everything in order and so on, it will come to you without your invitation. You cannot invite truth. There is no path to truth. There’s no intermediary or gateway or anything between you and truth. You have to come… It has to… if the field is right then that thing comes to you, with such glory. That is ecstasy. In that there is great sacredness. That is holy. Basta! | 1:23:30 所以，当我们的生活中有了 全然的「秩序」 ——这就是「冥想」的起点， 而当我们了解了觉察、 专注和注意的本质—— 那么所有的「努力」便会止息了 ——是所有的「努力」。 当你将一切事物都安排得井井有条， 那时就无需“努力”了。 由此头脑就会变得极其安静 ——这种「安静」不是邀请来的、不是培养出来的， 它是某种完全崭新的事物。 而「宗教」——这里说的「宗教」并不是 我们周围正在发生进行着的那些愚蠢荒谬的宗教， 以及所有他们的牧师、宗教仪式 和那些正在进行着的“马戏表演”—— 那时，「宗教」就意味着 自我和“我”的终结。 只有那时，头脑才能够获得那种 绝对的、不可逆转的「安静」， 并由此而达到「寂静」 1:25:03 ——这意味着作为「时间」与「度量」的「思想」止息了。 然后，如果头脑已经达到了这种程度， 那么在「寂静」之中 ——这种「寂静」是巨大的空间与能量—— 就会有一种无法用言语表达的全然的状态。 如果你已经把每一样事物 都安排得井井有条了，等等， 那么它（这种状态）就会降临于你 而无需你去邀请它。 你是无法去“邀请”真理的。 并没有什么通往真理的道路。 在你和真理之间并没有 “中间人”或“门户”或者任何事物。 你必须要去……必须是它自己 如果那块“田地”已经准确妥当， 那么那个东西就会无比荣耀地降临于你。 这就是「狂喜」。 在它之中有着 巨大的「神圣性」。 那便是「圣洁」。 （意大利语）今天就到此为止吧！ |
