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SA79D1 - 是否存在不会造成悲伤的行动？
第一次公开讨论，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月25日



1:10 Krishnamurti: For the next five days, every morning here, we are going to have a dialogue. A dialogue means conversation between two people. Two people who are concerned about their life, about their way of living, the world about us, and serious enough to resolve their problems, and so they are investigating together through a dialogue. Dialecticism is the art of investigation the truth of opinions. The truth of opinions, that is called dialectics. And opinions, our judgements, personal evaluations, points of views, and I don’t think you can find truth through those means. But perhaps if we are serious enough and concerned and committed to the investigation of our own problems, not theoretically, not in abstraction, but actually that which is happening. And two friends are talking over together about their problems, investigating and hoping thereby to resolve their problems. I hope that is clear. It is not a talk by the speaker but together have a conversation, a friendly, not antagonistic, not opposing points of view but together go into our problems. So that is the intention of these morning meetings here for the next 5 mornings. And I hope we will do that. 今后五天，每天上午，我们会在这儿进行对话。 对话是两个人之间的交谈。 两个人，他们关心生活和他们的生活方式， 关心我们身边的世界，怀着非常认真的解决问题的态度， 通过对话一起进行调查。 辩证法是调查某些观点的真实性。 这叫做辩证法。 而观点、我们的评判、个人的评价、看法， 我认为通过这些手段并不能发现真理。 或许，如果我们很严肃，如果我们关心并且致力于 调查我们自己的问题，不是从理论上、 抽象地去调查，而是实际调查正在发生的情况，这就是可能的。 于是，两个朋友一块儿讨论、调查他们的问题， 并希望由此解决他们的问题。 我希望这一点大家都清楚了。 这不是讲话者发表演说，而是在一起谈话， 是友好的谈话，而非彼此对抗、 观点对立，我们是一块儿去调查我们的问题。 这就是接下来这五天 我们上午聚会的目的。我希望我们能做到。
3:55 Now what shall we talk over together this morning? 那么，今天上午我们一起讨论些什么呢？

问：先生，在思想出现的时候，这个时候是否可能观察它，
4:09 Questioner: Sir, is it possible to observe thought as it occurs in the present, or when there is observation, the thought is already past? 还是说，等思想已经过去了才能观察？
4:21 K: Is it possible to observe thought as it is happening, or to observe thought as it has past. To observe what is thinking as thought arises, and observe that, or investigate thought which has already happened. 克：在思想正在发生时候，是否可能观察它， 还是说，在它结束之后再去观察它？ 在思想出现时，去观察什么是思想，是观察那个， 还是去调查已经发生过的思想？
4:54 Any other? Please, let’s put lots of questions and see which is the best of them and take one and work it out completely together. Go to the very end of it. So that is the first question. 还有其它问题吗？ 咱们多提些问题吧，然后挑出一个最好 的问题，一起来把它彻底解决掉。 把它问个水落石出。 那么这是第一个问题。

问：我十七岁的时候被汽车撞了，
5:25 Q: I was struck by an automobile when I was 17 years old, and I have had a great deal of difficulty with energy, being stuck in this area of my body; my leg was torn out. And I have listened to you for quite a few years and understand about not identifying with the problem. I wonder if you could go into personal injury, sir, mental cripples, like me. 我一直感到精力不济， 因为我身体这个部位动不了；我的腿撕裂了。 我听你讲话有好几年了， 我明白不要去认同问题。 先生，你能否讲一讲像我这样的身体伤害和精神残疾的问题？
5:55 K: Could you discuss, have a conversation about physically becoming incapable or having pain, and does that affect the mind. Does that affect the quality of thinking, quality of feeling, quality of affection. 克：你能讨论一下或者谈一谈生理 残疾或者身体的疼痛，那是否会影响到心。 那种情况是否影响到思考的品质、 情感的品质、关怀的品质？
6:21 That is two questions. Go on, sirs. Would you mind talking a little louder? 这是两个问题。接着提，先生们。

问：（无法听清）

克：您声音稍微大点儿好吗？
6:33 Q: Yes. Krishnaji, is the psyche a thing of the mind only or has it anything to do with truth? Is there universal psyche? What is this psyche you talk about so often? 问：好的。克里希那吉，灵魂仅仅是心那个方面的东西， 还是说，它与真相有关？ 存在普遍的灵魂吗？您经常谈的这个灵魂是什么？
6:59 K: The psyche of the mind and universal psyche. Is that it? Please, avanti. 克：灵魂和普遍的灵魂。 是吗？来，接着提问。
7:13 Q: The difference between the ‘me’ and individuality. 问：“我”与个性的区别。
7:19 K: The me? The individuality. All right, sir. The me and individuality. 克：我？个性。 好的，先生。我和个性。
7:31 Q: Sir, would you speak a little bit more about action which is not based on thought? 问：您能否再稍微讲一讲 那种不是建立在思想之上的行动？
7:39 K: Would you talk, or discuss, have a conversation about what is action, whether there is an action which is precise, accurate, and does not bring about further actions which will demand greater sorrow, greater problems, and so on. 克：你能否讲讲、或者讨论、 交谈一下，什么是行动，是否存在一种 明确的、确切的行动，并且不会导致那些招来 更大的悲伤和更为严重问题等等的进一步行动。

问：爱与死亡的关系是什么？
8:15 Q: What is the relationship between love and death? 克：爱与死亡的关系是什么？
8:36 K: What is the relationship between love and death? Now, just a minute, just a minute! 等一下，等一下！（笑声）
8:52 Q: Could you please explore further the relationship between fear and dependence? I am concerned about dependence in my own life and my relationship with my girlfriend. Sometimes I see it, and yet, it still continues. Somehow I don’t become free of it. Many times I think of just leaving and going away and being on my own. Yet, somehow I sense that is not the answer, there is something else. And yet there are other times when I see my own dependence and yet I am not free of it. And also there is tremendous fear. 问：请您进一步探讨一下 恐惧与依赖的关系，好吗？ 我关心的是我自己生活中的依赖， 还有我和我的女友的关系。 有时候我看到了这种依赖，可是它依然存在。 不知为何，我没有摆脱它。 我好几次想一走了之，离开她去自己生活。 可是不知怎的，我感觉那不是个解决办法，还有其它问题。 可是在别的时候， 我看到了我自己的依赖，可是我没有摆脱它。 我也有非常强烈的恐惧感。
9:36 K: You have to make your questions, please, short. 克：你得把问题提出来，注意，简短点儿。
9:42 Q: The relation between fear and dependence. 问：恐惧和依赖的关系。
9:46 K: Fear and dependence. What is the relationship between fear and dependence. 克：恐惧和依赖。 恐惧和依赖是什么关系。
10:01 Q: Could we discuss ambition and why we are so insensitive in our daily life? 问：我们讨论一下野心，还有为什么我们在日常生活中这么不敏感，好吗？
10:11 K: Ambition and insensitivity in our daily life. 克：野心以及我们在日常生活中的不敏感。
10:16 Now just a minute. Which of these questions shall we talk over together? That gentleman asked, is it possible to observe thought as it is taking place, or observe thought as it is over? The other question is, one is physically affected through an accident, through a disease, certain forms of illness, and does that affect the mind? And the other question is, what is the relationship between love and death? And you said, is the personal psyche, or the universal psyche? And that gentleman asked, what is the relationship between fear and dependence? And your question, sir, which was action, is there an action which is so totally complete, that that doesn’t leave regrets, anxiety, pain and sorrow, and all that. Now which of these questions would you like to talk about? 现在，等一下。（笑声） 这些问题，我们一起来讨论哪一个？ 那位先生问，在思想发生的时候，是否 可能去观察它，还是在思想结束之后再观察？ 另一个问题是，一个人因为一场事故、一场疾病 或者身体有某种疾病，身体受到了影响，那会不会影响到心？ 另一个问题是，爱和死亡的关系是什么？ 你说，有没有个人的灵魂或者普遍的灵魂？ 那位先生问， 恐惧和依赖的关系是什么？ 你的问题，先生，是行动，有没有一种 完全彻底的、不留遗憾、不会导致 焦虑、痛苦和悲伤之类后果的行动。 那么这些问题，大家愿意讨论哪个？

问：要是我们讨论依赖，是不是可以涵盖大部分问题？
12:04 Q: If we discussed dependence, would that cover many of the questions? 克：要是我们讨论依赖，是不是可以回答大部分问题。
12:14 K: If we discussed dependence, would that answer many of the questions. Or, would you discuss action, action in daily life, the doing, the way of behaviour, the way of conduct, the way of a relationship in which all action takes place, is there an action that is so totally complete that it doesn’t leave a sad remembrance? Is that the question, sir? 还是说，大家想讨论行动，日常生活中的行动， 行为举止，做事的方式，所发生的一切行动，它们 形成了怎样的关系，有没有一种行动， 它是完整的、圆满的，因而不留下悲伤的记忆？ 是这个问题吗，先生？

问：否则行动就是危险的。
13:08 Q: Or it would be dangerous. 问：是的，不留记忆。
13:12 Q: Yes, no remembrance. 克：好，我们讨论这个如何，还是说大家想讨论其它问题？
13:14 K: Yes, shall we discuss that, or do you want to discuss something else? 问：第一个问题。
13:22 Q: First question. 克：大家愿意讨论行动吗？
13:26 K: Would you like to discuss action? 问：愿意。
13:35 Q: Yes. 克：它不是我的…讨论什么都行。好，咱们讨论行动。
13:36 K: It is not my... Whatever you want. All right, let’s talk about action. Perhaps in that we will include thought, what is the relationship between love and death, fear and dependence, and physical illness affecting the mind, and the psyche and universal. Can we do this? Do you want to do this? Please.

Q: Yes. 		或许我们可以在讨论中也可以谈及思想， 爱和死亡、恐惧和依赖的关系， 生理疾病对心的影响，以及灵魂和普遍的灵魂。 这样讨论好吗？大家希望这样讨论吗？ 可以吗…

问：可以。
14:15 K: Right. What do you mean by action? What do we mean – please, this is a conversation, don’t go to sleep, this is a conversation between you and the speaker, together. I am not investigating and you are just listening, together we are going to find out if there is an action which is so whole, complete, total, that is doesn’t leave a single shadow of pain, regret, grief, hurt, and all that – right? So what do we mean by action? Please, sir, join with me. 克：好的。你说的行动是什么意思？ 我们说的——请注意，这是对话，别睡着了， 这是你和讲话者一起对话。 不是我调查，而你只是听； 我们要一起来查明是否存在一种 如此完整的、圆满的、全面的行动，不留下 一丝痛苦、遗憾、悲痛、受伤之类的阴影——对吧？ 那么，我们说的行动是什么意思？ 请注意先生，和我对话。
15:07 Q: Action must be a creation. 问：行动一定是创造。

克：行动一定是创造。
15:10 K: Action must be a creation. 问：你如何与当下相遇。
15:12 Q: How you meet the moment. 克：你看你说的是像“行动一定是创造”这样的断语，
15:17 K: You see, you are now making a statement like ‘action must be creation’, and you are finished! There is no dialogue. But if you say – that is why I am asking: please, don’t offer opinions right off, what you think is action and hold on to it. Let us take it, examine it, go together – right, sirs? 那么，你就把话说死了！这不是对话。 可是如果你说——就是因为那个原因，我请大家不要 直接给出观点，你认为行动是什么，然后坚持这个观点。 咱们一块儿来考虑一下，检视一下这个问题——好吗，先生们。
15:49 So the first thing is to find out what we mean by that word ‘action’, the doing. Do we mean that which has been done, or that which will be done, the action in the past, or the action in the future, or the action which is now taking place. This is action. Action isn’t moving from here to there physically or taking a hammer and a nail and putting it in a wall, or driving a car. Actually action means that which is happening – right, sir? Not the action which has happened, or the action which is going to happen. All this is also action: that which has happened, that which is happening, and that which will happen. Right? Right? Do we agree to this? Please. So what is the action that has happened? What is it the result of? What is the motive of that action? What is the impetus? What is the conclusion from which an action takes place? You understand? You are following all this? Or you are getting tired already. 所以，首先要弄清楚 我们说的“行动”这个词，做事， 是什么意思。 我们指的是已经完成的行动，还是将要进行的行动， 过去的行动，还是将来的行动， 还是现在正在进行的行动？ 这是行动。 行动不是在物理上从这里移动到那里， 或者拿起一把榔头，一个钉子，把钉子敲进墙里，或者开汽车。 行动实际上指的是现在正在发生的事情——对吧先生？ 不是已经发生的行动，或者将要发生的行动。 这一切也是行动：已经发生的行动， 正在发生的行动和将要发生的行动。 对吧？对吧？这一点大家同意吗？我在问。 那么什么是已经发生的行动？ 其结果是什么？ 行动的动机如何？ 其推动力是什么？ 导致行动的那个结论是什么？ 大家明白吗？这些大家全都跟上了吗， 还是说你们已经累了。（笑声）
17:39 Action has some kind of motive, pleasant or unpleasant, rewarding or painful, or under pressure, driven by various influences. So one has to find out what we mean by action. Is there an action which has no motive, which is not under pressure, which is not threatened and therefore act, which is not rewarding and therefore painful? So one has to look at the word very, very carefully, if you are willing. This is a conversation – right? 行动存在某种动机，愉快的或者不愉快的， 有奖赏的或者痛苦的，或者是因为受到压力，受到各种影响因素的驱使。 所以，你必须弄明白我们所指的行动是什么。 是否存在一种没有动机的行动， 它不是因为受到压力，不是因为受到威胁而行动， 也不是为了得到奖赏？有奖赏就会有痛苦。 所以，你必须非常非常仔细地审视这个词，要是你愿意的话。 这是对话——对吧？
18:39 Most of our actions, as one observes, are based on a remembrance. Right? Or on a desire, or on personal reward or punishment, or an action based on an ideal, or on a belief, and so on. Right? So, please watch this for yourself, let’s examine it together. If an action is based on an ideal, on the future, that action is conforming, adjusting or imitating the ideal. Right? Therefore is that an action which is whole, complete, without leaving any mark of hurt, regret, and so on? You follow? So what is our action, yours and mine, the speaker’s, in investigating, what is our action based on? Pleasure, fear? Go on, sirs, examine it. I am investigating, you are all silent. 我们大多数行动，就像我们所观察的那样，是基于记忆的。 对吧？ 或者是基于欲望，或者是基于个人的奖赏、惩罚， 或者是基于理想、信仰等等的行动。 对吧？ 那么，请你亲自观察一下这种现象，我们一起调查它。 行动要是基于理想，基于未来， 那个行动就是在遵从、调整或者是模仿这个理想。 对吧？ 所以，那是完整的、 彻底的，不会遗留任何伤害、懊悔等等疤痕的行动吗？ 你跟上了吗？ 那么，我们的行动，我们所调查的你们的行动 和我即讲话者的行动，我们行动的基础是什么？ 是快乐、恐惧吗？ 赶紧，先生们，调查一下。我正在调查，大家全都没声。

问：行动是以需求为基础的。
20:33 Q: Actions are based on necessity. 克：需求。
20:36 K: Necessity. That is, sir, necessity – I need food, so I go to the market if I have money, buy it – that is an action. I need clothes; if I have money, I go and buy it. Shelter, and so on. So on necessity, the needs, physical needs, and then psychological needs. Right? Right, sir? 就是说，先生，需求。——我需要食物，于是我到市场去买， 要是我有钱的话，那是一个行动。 我需要衣服，要是我有钱，我就去买衣服。 住所等等，也是如此。 所以，以需求为基础，需求，生理需求，还有心理需求。 对吧？ 对吗，先生？
21:10 Q: Do they exist? 问：它们存在吗？
21:16 K: What? 克：什么？

问：存在心理需求吗？
21:18 Q: Do psychological needs exist? 克：那就是我们要去弄清楚的问题。
21:21 K: That is the question which we are going to find out. There are physical needs and actions, and actions based on what we consider psychological needs. One needs somebody to give one comfort, therefore dependence and action based on that dependence. Right? I need – what? – somebody to tell me how to live a different life, and I depend on that person. 存在着生理需求和行动， 还有些行动是以我们认为的心理需求为基础的。 你需要某个人给你安慰， 从而导致依赖和基于依赖的行动。 对吧？ 我需要某个人来告诉我如何过一种 不同的生活，于是我依赖那个人。

问：行动有没有可能不带有任何动机？
22:29 Q: Is it possible for an action not to have a cause? 克：我听不见。火车替你说了。（笑声）
22:32 K: I can’t hear. The train is the voice. 问：他说，行动有没有可能不带有任何动机。
22:35 Q: He says is it possible for an action not to have a cause. 克：行动有没有可能不带有任何动机
22:38 K: Is it possible for an action not to have a cause – we are going to go into all this. Go step by step, please. You see, when you make a statement like that: is there an action without cause, you are asking a question which is hypothetical, and the answer must also be hypothetical. But if we go step by step, slowly, examining, and doing it as we are going along, then there will be no theoretical problems at all. Right? So please, in discussion, in dialogue, don’t jump to something. See what our actions are based on, first, what is actually going on, either physical needs: food, clothes, shelter and the labour required to earn the money to have those, and psychological needs. It is a fact. This is what we have, physical as well as psychological, and actions are based on these two. Right? One recognises physical needs are absolutely necessary. Either you work – factory, digging in a ditch, teaching, carpentry, science, business, doctors – not politicians! – and so on, and that is necessary. As society now is organised, we all have to work from morning till night for years and years and years. Just look at the tragedy of it. You may not like it but it is a fact. One goes to the office, factory, whatever one is doing physically to earn money, from the age of 20, 15, till you are almost dying, day after day, to the office, and so on, so on. That is how our society is organised. That is a fact. ——我们准备把这些都调查一番。 请一步一步地来。 你看，当你提出这样一个说法： “是否存在没有动机的行动”的时候，你是在提出一个 假设性的问题，那么答案必然也是假设性的。 而如果我们在进行过程当中，慢慢地，一步一步地调查， 那么就根本不存在任何那些理论上的问题了。 对吧？ 因此请注意，在讨论、对话中，不要跳到什么假设、理论上去。 看看我们是基于什么行动的，首先，实际上发生的是什么情况； 要么是生理需求，食物、衣服、住所以及为了有钱 买到那些东西所需要付出的劳动，还有那些心理需求。 它是事实。 就是说，我们既有生理的也有心理的需求， 我们的行动建立在这二者之上。 对吧？ 你意识到生理需求是完全必需的。 不管你干什么工作——到工厂上班，挖沟，教书、木匠、 科研、经商、医生——不包括那些政客！（笑声） 等等，那是必需的。 现在这个社会是组织化的，我们都只能从早 干到晚，年复一年地工作。 看看这场生活的悲剧吧。 你可能不喜欢它，但它是事实。 你到办公室、工厂上班，为了赚钱，不管你以自己的身躯 从事的是什么工作，从二十岁、十五岁一直干到 快要死掉，日复一日地到办公室，等等、等等。 这就是我们社会的组织形式。 那是事实。
25:28 Q: Do you call that action or is it reaction? 问：你管那叫做行动？还是说它是反应？
25:32 K: Do you call that action or reaction. It is both, because I need food, and if I don’t get proper amount of money, labour, I am jealous, anxious, all the rest of it begins. Therefore it is a reaction. So there is the physical need. Then one’s actions are based on psychological needs. Please, go into it. 克：你管那叫做行动还是反应。 都是，因为我需要食物，我要是不能干活，挣到足够的钱， 我就会嫉妒、焦虑，就会出现各种问题（笑声）。 所以，它是反应。所以，存在着生理需求。 然后，你的行动是基于心理需求的。 调查一下吧。
26:05 Q: Psychological needs are different from desire? 问：心理需求不同于欲望吗？
26:08 K: We are coming to that, sir. Are psychological needs different from desire? Perhaps not. Or they are. Let’s examine it. Let us first see, or recognise and accept as a fact, that we need, apparently man needs, human beings need – the need may be false, we will find out – the need for action based on psychological needs. That is, one needs belief, one needs certain forms of conclusions, certain opinions, points of view. You need nationality, hierarchical approach. You need all this. Please, don’t deny it, it is a fact for most people. You may not say, ‘I have no psychological necessities’, that would be a most rare thing to say. Right? 克：我们就要讨论到那个问题，先生。 心理需求不同于欲望吗？ 也许不同。 也许一样。咱们来调查一下。 咱们首先看到或认识到，并且承认这个事实，即我们有需求， 显然人有需求，人类有需求——这种需求可能是不真实的， 我们要去查明——这种将行动建立在心理需求之上的需求。 也就是说，你需要信仰，你需要某些形式的结论， 某些观点、看法。 你需要国家，需要等级制度。 你需要这一切。 请不要否认它，对于大多数人而言，它是事实。 你或许不这样，你说：“我没有任何心理方面的需求”， 那种情况可是非常罕见的呢。 对吧？
27:36 So we must find out for ourselves: do we have these things as a need? Belief, opinions, judgements, conclusions, images – religious and otherwise – religious and images created by the hand and by the mind – you follow all these? Are these needs? 所以，我们必须亲自弄清楚这些东西是不是我们的需求？ 信仰、观点、评判、结论、形象， 宗教的和非宗教的——宗教的和用头脑和双手 创造的形象，这些大家都跟上了吗？ 这些是不是需求呢？
28:09 Q: What about despair, action which comes from despair? 问：那绝望，来自于绝望的行动呢？
28:16 K: Action comes from despair. 克：来自于绝望的行动。
28:18 Q: What about inaction that come from despair? 问：他说，那来自于绝望的行动是怎么回事。
28:22 K: That’s right. Wait. Sir, look, first, let’s look at ourselves, sir. What are your psychological needs, and are there actions born of those needs? 克：我明白了（笑）。等一下。 先生，听着，咱们先来审视我们自身，先生。 我们的心理需求是什么，有没有来自于那些需求的行动？
28:45 Q: Sir, I think that what I heard so far, it seems that the necessity has to be there for an action, and there is always a necessity for action, in some way or another. 问：先生，我在刚才听的时候想， 似乎行动必须得有需求才行， 总是存在着这样或者那样的采取行动的需求。
29:00 K: That’s what we are enquiring. You are saying there must be some kind of necessity, need, for action. We said for physical needs there must be. But we are questioning whether we need, or are there necessities, psychologically, for action. I question it. I am not saying you must accept it. I say I doubt it. I am not sure. You understand? I am examining it. One is not dogmatic, I don’t take a position, I don’t refuse to move from a conclusion. 克：那就是我们正在调查的内容。 你说的是行动一定得有某种需求，需要去行动。 我们说，对于生理需求，那一定是存在的。 而我们问的是，我们的行动是否 需要有心理上的需求。 我怀疑这一点。 我不是说你必须接受我的话。 我说我怀疑这一点。 我不确定。 大家明白吗？我是在调查它。 我不武断，我不采取立场（笑）。 我可以放弃一个结论。
29:47 What we are trying to find out is, what is action. You see action in the physical needs, and action based on various forms of opinions, judgements, conclusions, convictions, experiences, beliefs, dogmas, dependence, and so on, so on – psychologically. And the speaker says – he questions it, you understand? 我们试图弄清楚的是，什么是行动。 你看到生理需求导致的行动，还有基于各种 观点、评判、结论、信念、经验， 信仰、教条以及依赖等等心理需求的行动。 讲话者说，他怀疑这一点，大家理解吗？
30:23 Q: Sir, it seems there’s two aspects of action that I need. First of all, action is not based on need. If it was, if it was based on true observation of a productive need, then there may not be so many problems. But most action is based on desires, on our conditioning, and our needs. So what is the right need to base an action on? 问：先生，似乎我需要的行动有两个方面。 首先，行动不是建立在需求之上的， 如果行动是基于纯粹的观察， 基于有益的需求，或许就不会有这么多问题了。 可是，大多数行动是以欲望、我们受到的制约和我们的需求为基础的。 那么行动应该以什么需求为基础才是正确的呢？
30:53 K: You are asking, are you, sir – please, if I am putting your question wrongly, please correct it – are you saying that we need psychological... 克：你问的是，先生，要是我误解了你的问题， 请纠正我——你是说我们需要心理方面…
31:08 Q: No, I am saying that all action is not based on needs, correct needs. What would determine what is a correct need, instead of desire, and so on? 问：不是，我是说所有的行动都没有以需求、正确的需求为基础。 正确的需求不是欲望之类的东西决定的，那么它是由什么决定的？
31:25 K: Yes, what is the correct need.

Q: Why do we have... 		克：对，什么是正确的需求。

问：为什么我们…
31:29 K: One moment, just wait a minute, please. What is one’s correct need physically – right? 克：等一下，请稍等一下。 什么是一个人的正确的生理需求——对吗？
31:40 Q: In other words, is there a strict separation between the one and the other? Is there a right separation between the two or it’s quite... 问：换句话说，一个和另一个之间存在严格的区别吗？ 能够恰如其分地区分开两者吗？还是说它太…
31:53 K: Is there a strict division between the psychological needs and the physical needs. You see, you are all... Now to answer that question: do physical needs go over to the psychological needs? I need a house – one needs a house, or a room to stay in, then in that room, one gets attached to the furniture, the attachment to the furniture is a psychological need. Right? Because without that furniture I feel a bit uncomfortable. So is there a demarcation at all? You see, unless you, please, go into this step by step, you won’t answer this question so quickly. 克：心理需求和生理需求存在 严格的区别吗？你看，大家都…（笑） 现在回答那个问题， 生理需求会转变成心理需求吗？ 我需要一所房子——你需要一所房子或一间屋子住， 接着你喜欢上了那个房间里的家具， 对于家具的喜欢是一种心理需求。 对吧？ 因为没有家具的话我会感到有点不舒服。 那么究竟存不存在界线呢？ 你知道，除非你， 来，一步一步地调查， 那样你就不会马上给出答案了。
33:01 We are talking over together as two friends, investigating together, as a dialogue, as a conversation, what is action. We have said so far, there are the actions based on the needs, on needs – physical needs. One needs a shirt, a pair of trousers or a dress, one needs that, unless you are a nudist, then it’s all right! You need to have food, and to have food you have to work, enough money to go to the market, and so on. And you need – need a room, a house, but the need for a house becomes very important. One isn’t satisfied with a room, one wants a beautiful room, one wants pictures in it and old, antique furniture, if you can afford it. Then as you have invested money in the antique furniture, in a lovely room, with a lovely vase and pictures, you are attached to it. And then you say, ‘I need those’. Right? ‘I can’t live without a picture in the room’, and it must be either a copy, an original, and so on, so on. That is, gradually I begin to depend on those things. So the furniture is me. Right? Do you question that? I am attached to the furniture, and I don’t want you to spoil it, don’t put it in the sun, don’t scratch on it, I hold it dear. And that furniture has become me. Right? And I act from that. 我们像两个朋友一样，一起坦诚地交谈， 一起以对话、谈话的形式去调查，什么是行动。 到目前为止，我们已经说过，存在基于需求、 基于生理需求的行动。 你需要一件衬衫，一条裤子或者一件连衣裙， 你需要衣服，除非你是裸体主义者，那没关系！ 你需要吃饭，为了吃饭，你得工作， 得有足够的钱去市场采购等等。 你需要——需要一个房间， 一所房子，可是对于房子的需求变得非常重要起来。 你对于一个房间不满意， 你想要一个漂亮的房间， 要是你买得起，你希望在里面挂些画， 摆些古董家具。 因为你把钱花在了摆着古董家具、美丽的花瓶， 还挂着些画的漂亮的房间上面，你对它产生了依恋。 然后你说：“我需要这些东西。”对吧？ “房间里要是没有画，我就没法生活” ——不管是复制品还是原作，一定得有才行，等等、等等。 就是说，我逐渐地开始依赖那些东西了。 那么，家具就是我。 对吧？ 你们对此有疑问吗？ 我喜欢这件家具，我不能让你把它弄坏了 ——别把它放在太阳底下，别在上面划道道，我把它当作宝贝。 于是，那件家具就成了我。 对吧？ 我根据那种认同采取行动。
35:31 So we are going to the next step: is there a necessity for psychology to exist? Are there psychological necessities? We say, yes, it is a fact. The necessity of a belief, the necessity of dependence, the necessity of sex, the necessity of ambition, achievement, success. Right? And on all that my actions are based. That’s obvious, isn’t it? Right? Is this all wrong?

Q: No. 		那么，我们进行下一步：心理上的 需求，它存在吗？ 存在心理上的需求吗？ 我们说，是的，它是事实。 对信仰的需求，对依赖的需求， 对性的需求，对野心、成就和成功的需求。 对吧？ 我的行动是以那一切为基础的。 那不用说，不是吗？对吧？ 这全都是错误的吗？

问：没有错。
36:38 K: Please, look at it yourself, in yourself. One goes to India – sorry! – because one feels the need for instruction, for wisdom, for knowledge, for enlightenment, because the western world is too worldly, not interested in religion, and they go to India where there is dirt, romance, and squalor and gurus, and you go. Then you say, ‘I need those’. You follow? This is actually what is going on. 克：请亲自在你自己身上观察它。 你到印度去——抱歉！（笑声）——因为你觉得需要 得到指点，需要智慧，需要知识，需要启示， 因为西方世界太世俗， 对宗教不感兴趣，于是他们到印度去，那里有尘土、 浪漫和肮脏，还有那些古鲁们，你去那儿了。 然后你说：“我需要那些东西”。 跟上了吗？这是实际发生的事情。
37:19 So we are now questioning why we consider that psychologically we need things. Right? That is what we are investigating. Don’t go back to the physical needs, we have finished with it. Now, do we need beliefs? 那么，我们现在问的是，为什么我们认为 我们在心理上需要一些东西？ 对吗？ 我们调查的就是这个问题。 别又回到生理需求问题，我们已经谈过它了。 那么，我们需要信仰吗？

问：不需要。
37:46 Q: No. 克：这位先生说不需要。
37:49 K: The gentleman says, no. That means you are free of beliefs. Now you’ll see what we mean by belief. Belief in something that cannot be proved. I believe – one believes in God – it can’t be proved. One believes in heaven – it can’t be proved. One believes that there are people living on the moon – not on the moon, somewhere else – one believes that, it can’t be proved. So we believe in nationality. Right? Right? No? Oh, my god. You are French, German, English, Indian, and god knows what else. Follow it step by step. Either you relinquish all this as you go along and say, ‘Sorry, I am not a nationalist’ – finished. 那意味着你摆脱了各种信仰。 那么，你会看到我们说的信仰是什么。 对某些无法证明的东西的信仰。 我相信——你信仰上帝——它无法得到证实。 你相信天堂——它无法证明。 你相信月球上住着人——不是月球上， 其它地方（笑声），你相信那个说法，它证明不了。 我们相信国籍。 对吧？对吧？ 不相信？哦，天哪。 你是法国人、德国人、英国人、印度人，天晓得还有其它什么国籍。 这个调查过程要步步跟上。 或者，你在调查过程中放弃了这一切，你说： “抱歉，我不是国家主义者”——结束了
39:06 Q: Sir, may I ask a question? Don’t we have to ask ourselves first where those needs come from? 问：我可以问个问题吗？ 我们是不是应该先问我们自己，那些需求是从哪里来的？
39:19 K: We are going to find out, we are going to go into that. How do these needs arise, what is the cause of it? We are going to find out in a minute if you have patience. So beliefs have become necessities. Talk to the Catholics, to the Protestants, to the Christian world that believe in Jesus, saviour, and all the rest of it – they believe. Right? And you go to India, they also have their gods – they believe. So why do they believe in something that cannot be proved – you understand? – that has no validity. Why do they believe? Come on, sirs! 克：我们就要去搞清楚，我们就要去调查那个问题。 这些需求是怎么出现的，其原因是什么？ 你要是有耐心，我们一会儿就去把它弄清楚。 那么，信仰成了必需的东西。 你去问那些天主教徒、新教徒们，你去问信仰耶稣、 救世主等等的基督教世界的人，他们是相信的。 对吧？ 你去印度，他们也有他们的那些神，他们也是相信的。 那么，他们为什么相信某些无法证实的东西 ——大家明白吗？——毫无效力的东西。 他们为什么要相信？加把劲儿，先生们！

问：因为他们喜欢那种形式的行动。
40:20 Q: Because they love that sort of action. 克：这位先生说，因为他们喜欢那种行动。
40:27 K: Because, the gentleman says, they love that kind of action. Why do they love that kind of action? 他们为什么喜欢那种行动？

问：它给了他们安全。
40:35 Q: It gives them security. 克：请去调查一下。调查一下你自己。
40:37 K: Go into it, please. You enquire into yourself. You believe – don’t you? – if you are honest, in something or other. Or you don’t believe, and you go to the other extreme, which is the same. You understand? ‘I don’t believe in god, I am an atheist’. And both take a stand. You understand? You know what I mean, ‘take a stand’? That is, both remain convinced of their conclusions. 你要是诚实的话，你是相信这样或那样一些事情的，不是吗？ 或者你不相信，你就走到了另一个极端，那还是一回事。 大家理解吗？（笑）“我不信上帝，我是无神论者”。 两者都在表明立场。 大家明白吗？ 大家明白我说的“表明立场”是什么意思吗？ 就是说，他们依然都 对自己的结论深信不疑。
41:16 Q: Sir, belief in oneself is the same thing. 问：先生，对自己的信念是同一回事。
41:20 K: Belief in oneself. All right, let’s take that, belief in oneself. What is oneself? Oh, my god! What is oneself? 克：对自己的信念。 是的，我们就说这个吧，对自己的信念。 自己是什么？哦，天哪！ 自己是什么呢？

问：我的内容。
41:38 Q: My contents. 克：不，调查一下，请和我仔细探讨一下。
41:40 K: No, investigate it, please, talk it over with me. 问：我们试图从别的什么东西，比如信仰里面寻找安全。
41:48 Q: We try to find security in something else, like a belief. 克：先生，这位先生说：“我相信我自己”，
41:54 K: Sir, the gentleman says, ‘I believe in myself’, so what is the thing you believe in? 那么你相信的是什么呢？

问：一个观念，一个形象。
42:03 Q: An idea, an image. 克：就看着它，先生，把它审视一下，调查一下。
42:05 K: Just look at it, sir, look at it, examine it. Do you believe you exist because you have a body? 因为你有身体，所以你相信你是存在的，是吗？
42:15 Q: Yes.

K: Yes. Do you believe in yourself because you have certain emotions, certain conclusions, certain points of view, certain way of behaving, certain idiosyncratic activities, name, form, bank account, or no bank account? All that you believe in? You don’t even... Please, examine it. When you say, ‘I believe in myself’, I say what? it is a strange thing to say, what do you believe in? In the knowledge that you have acquired? 		问：是的。

克：是的。 你相信你自己，因为你有某些情绪， 某些结论，某些看法， 某种行为方式，某些乖异的行为，是这样吗？ 是因为你有一个名字，一个外形，有银行账户或者没有银行账户吗？ 你相信那一切吗？ 你甚至都没有…请把它调查一下。 当你说：“我相信我自己”的时候，我觉得 这是个很奇怪的说法，你相信的是什么呢？ 是你学到的知识吗?

问：也就是我自己。
43:09 Q: What is myself? 克：那正是我在调查的问题，夫人。（笑声）
43:10 K: That is what I am examining, madame. 问：我建议咱们举个实际的例子好吗？
43:16 Q: May I suggest that we take an actual example? Most of the people who are present in this tent believe that you are enlightened. 大多数坐在这个帐篷里的人 都相信你开悟了。
43:32 Q: How do you know? 问：你怎么知道的？（笑声）

克：先生，我们不是在谈论谁开悟了，
43:40 K: Please, sir, we are not talking who is enlightened, who is not enlightened, and how do you know. But we are talking about a man who says, ‘I believe in myself’, I say, what is this strange conclusion. Then I say, who is yourself in whom you believe? 谁没有开悟，还有你是如何知道的。 而是，我们讨论的是，有个人说： “我相信我自己”，我说，这是个奇怪的结论。 然后我说，你相信的你自己是谁？
44:04 Q: May I finish, sir? Let’s us say that I believe that you are enlightened. 问：我可以说完吗，先生？ 咱们就说，我相信你开悟了。
44:11 Q: All right, sit down again! 问：好啦，再说一遍，坐下！（笑声）
44:24 Q: Let us say, that I don’t believe that you are enlightened. I don’t believe that you are going to help me, so I don’t have to believe that you will in any way help me. 问：咱们就说，我不信你开悟了。 我不信你能帮助我， 所以，我没有必要相信你能给我什么帮助。
44:41 Q: Why are you here? 问：你为什么来这儿？
44:48 K: I am sorry, sir, I don’t quite understand. 克：抱歉，先生，我不太明白你的意思。
44:51 Q: I would suggest that I, me, this person, am the only one who can find out. 问：我想，我，本人， 我是唯一能够弄明白的那个人。
45:04 K: What is he saying? 克：他在说什么？

问：我认为这个不怎么复杂。
45:06 Q: I don’t think this is very complicated. 克：先生，一个人必须得去替自己弄清楚他是谁。
45:13 K: Sir, one has to find out for oneself who he is. Now, two friends are meeting and talking over and say, look, who am I, in whom I believe so strongly? Right? He says, let’s investigate it. Don’t say, I am God, and stick to it, or I am the environmental reactions, or this or that. Don’t hold on, or take a position, let’s enquire into it, let’s go into it. Not that I am superior, you are inferior, or you are superior, I am inferior – two friends. So I say, I am asking, who is this entity, myself, in whom you believe? 现在，两个朋友见了面，坦诚地交谈， 说，听着，我这么强烈地相信我的存在，这个我是谁呢？ 对吧？他说，咱们去调查一下。 不要说，我是上帝，然后就坚持这个想法， 或者，我是对环境的反应，或者这个或者那个。 不要固执己见，或者采取一个立场，咱们调查一下，研究一下。 不是我高人一等， 你低人一等，或者你高人一等，我低人一等——而是作为两个朋友。 所以我说，我问我自己，你相信的这个实体是谁？
46:05 Q: A piece of the absolute truth. 问：一个绝对真理。
46:15 K: Oh, a piece of the absolute truth. You see, and then we are finished! There is no discussion possible. 克：哦，一个绝对真理。 你看，那样我们就说完了。 就无法讨论下去了。
46:27 Q: Well, if you say you believe in yourself, doesn’t that generally mean that a person has led life, he has had certain challenges in life, he has overcome some of these challenges. And from overcoming these challenges, or whatever the experiences were, he forms a certain image of himself, and when says he believes in himself, or she believes in herself, it is that image that they believe in. 问：嗯，你说你相信你自己， 那不就是说，一个人在生活中遇到了 某些挑战，他克服了其中的一些挑战。 在这个过程中，或者不管是什么经验中， 他形成了关于自己的一个形象，当他说他相信他自己， 或者她相信她自己的时候，他们所相信的就是那个形象。
46:59 K: Is this dialogue worthwhile? 克：这个对话还值得谈下去吗？

问：不值得。
47:05 Q: No. 问：值得。

问：要是我们可以继续的话。
47:06 Q: Yes.

Q: If we could go on. 		克：像我们现在这个样子，它值得吗？
47:09 K: As we are going on, is it worthwhile? So I am asking you, please, is it worthwhile going on with this dialogue? 今天上午天气真好，你们可以出去散散步。 我是在问大家，这个对话还值得继续下去吗？
47:22 Q: Yes, yes.

Q: I don’t know. 		问：是的，值得。

问：我不知道。
47:25 K: You are quite right, sir. 克：非常对，先生。

问：咱们回到行动的问题好吗？
47:28 Q: Could we go back to action? 克：我就要说到这个问题。（笑）

问： 那是个真正的问题，我是什么
47:32 K: I am coming... 什么是自我，那是真正的问题，我觉得是值得的。
47:38 Q: That is real question, what I am, what is oneself, that is the real question, I think it is worthwhile. 克：先生，在这些问题当中，那位先生的一个问题是，什么是行动？
47:45 K: Sir, that gentleman asked, amongst other questions, what is action. Is there an action that doesn’t bring sorrow? Is there an action that doesn’t breed contradictions? Is there an action that is so complete, so whole that it is finished without leaving any shadow of regret, of saying to oneself ‘I wish I hadn’t done it’, and so on? That is the question two people are discussing, you are the one and the speaker is the other. We are having a dialogue about it. 有没有不会带来悲伤的行动？ 有没有不会滋生矛盾的行动？ 有没有如此彻底的，如此完满的 一种行动，它结束的时候，不会留下一丝懊悔的阴影， 你也不会对自己说那种“我要是没做这件事就好了”的话？ 那就是两个人讨论的问题， 一位是你，另一位是讲话者。 我们在就此进行交谈。
48:35 Q: Action issues from spontaneity. 问：行动源于自发。

克：行动从自发性中产生。
48:46 K: Action is born out of spontaneity. Are we ever spontaneous? You see, you all... 我们可曾自发地行动过？你看大家都…（笑）
48:57 Q: Sir, this is my action. 问：先生，这就是我的行动。

克：什么，先生？
49:04 K: What, sir? 问：我该怎么办？
49:06 Q: What am I to do? 克：我正在调查这个问题先生，那其实很简单。
49:08 K: I am going into it, sir, that is just simple. You see, the gentleman asks, I have had a car accident, my body is affected, and it is affecting my mind – sit down, sir – what am I to do? Right? He is asking that question, because he has to find out, because he is in pain, he is confused, he says, ‘Tell me what to do’. Right? Are we in that position, any of you? Or is it all so casual a dialogue that you will listen and you will do nothing about what you have listened to? 那位先生问，我出过事故，交通事故，我的身体受到影响， 它影响到了我的心，——坐下，先生——我该怎么办？ 对吧？ 他问的是这个问题，因为他必须弄明白， 因为他痛苦，他感到困惑，他说：“告诉我该怎么办吧”。 对吧？ 我们是在那种境地吗，你们谁是这样？ 还是说，这个对话非常的随便，你们听是听了， 对于听到的东西却无动于衷。
50:09 You know, we have spent 50 minutes, and we haven’t come to any point. So I am asking, is it worth going on like this? 你看我们谈了五十分钟了，却毫无进展。 所以我问的是，像这样谈下去值得吗？
50:23 Q: No. 问：不值得。

克：那么我们该怎么办？
50:24 K: So what shall we do? 问：我们之前的调查是有所发现的，
50:26 Q: Let’s investigate the point that we arrived at when we discovered something instead of going to something else. 咱们就去调查那个问题，不去讨论别的。

克：听着，先生，那位先生关心他自己的问题，
50:39 K: Look, sir, that gentleman is concerned about himself, his pain, his anxiety, his nervous reactions from this motor accident. He is concerned. He doesn’t want theories, he doesn’t want about enlightenment, all that business. He says, ‘Tell me’. Right? And are you like that, in that position? Not, I hope you have not an accident, but are you in that position and say, ‘Look, I want to find out. I want to give my life to find out if there is an action which is really whole’ – right, sir? Are you giving your life to it? Or you are just sitting on the river bank and looking at the waters go by, never entering in the stream? 他的痛苦，他的焦虑，他因为汽车事故造成的神经反应。 他很关心。 他不想要理论， 他不想要开悟之类的东西。 他说：“告诉我。”对吧？ 你们处在那种境地吗？ 不是说…我希望你们没有遇到过什么事故， 可是你们是处在那样一种境地，你说：“听着，我要弄个明白。 我愿付出自己的生命，去搞清楚是否存在一种 真正完满的行动”，是这样吗？——是吗，先生？ 你会为之付出生命吗？ 还是说你只是坐在岸上， 观望着水的流逝，却从不踏进溪流之中。
51:36 Q: There is no complete action. 问：不存在完整的行动。
51:43 K: Very few are concerned really about it. I am just questioning whether these dialogues are worth it at all. 克：很少有人真正关心这个问题。 我只是怀疑这些对话究竟还有没有必要进行下去。
52:04 Q: Why don’t we change from discussions. Let’s talk about discussions. You are one and we are a thousand. So technically, discussion is not really possible. Perhaps, you have to organise them in another way. 问：为什么我们不能改变一下讨论形式。 咱们就说讨论吧。你是一个人，我们是一千人。 所以，从技术上讲，讨论其实是不可行的。 也许你得换一种方式来组织讨论。
52:20 K: The gentleman says, you are one and we are a thousand, and you can’t really have a conversation with a thousand people. Just listen! You can’t have a conversation with a thousand people because thousand opinions, a thousand ways. That is why I said at the beginning, sir, please, let’s think together. Let us put aside our problems, our opinions, our judgements, our way of thinking, our conclusions, put all those aside and let’s think together. You won’t even do that. And when we meet two, or half a dozen, it will be the same problem. We have done all this; in India, in Holland, in America, groups, small groups, big groups, but nobody gives his life to find out. 克：这位先生说，你是一个人，我们是一千人， 你其实无法和一千人进行对话。 请听好！ 你无法与一千人对话， 是因为这里有着一千种观点，一千种方式。 那就是为什么在开始的时候，先生，我说咱们一起来思考吧。 我们放弃我们的那些问题、观点、评判、思考 方式以及我们的结论，把那些全都放下，我们一起来思考。 你们甚至连那都不肯做。 我们和两个人，或者五六个人开会，同样会遇到这个问题。 这种情况我们都遇到过；在印度、荷兰、美国，讨论小组， 人数少些、多些，可是没有人愿意为了查明真相而付出自己的生命。
53:24 Q: Can we not just discuss one problem? 问：我们只讨论一个问题好吗？

克：我在讨论一个问题。
53:29 K: I am doing one problem. 问：（听不清）…这位先生的问题。
53:31 Q:...this gentleman’s problem. 克：就是那一个问题，我还在讨论呢。
53:32 K: That is the one problem I am discussing still. That is, when a body is affected by an accident, why does it enter into the psychological mental state – right, sir? 就是，身体受到交通事故的影响后， 为什么会对心理、精神状态造成影响——对吧先生？
53:54 Q: Yes, sir. 问：是的，先生。

克：你们没有这种问题吗？
53:59 K: Haven’t you such problems? 问：那是为了避免面对问题而采取的错误的保护措施，是吗？
54:03 Q: Is it a false means of protection from facing? 克：听着：我的神经在事故中遭受了沉重打击。对吧？
54:07 K: Look, my nerves have been shattered through an accident. Right? A car has run over my leg, and that leg is paralysed, I can’t walk properly. And that affects my thinking, because I can’t get a proper job. Right? You don’t see all this! I depend on somebody to help me. So gradually I become anxious, I become frightened, I develop nervous ticks, and what am I to do? 一辆轿车轧过我的腿，那条腿瘫痪了，我无法正常行走。 我的思想因此受到影响，因为我无法找到合适的工作。 对吧？你们不去看这一切。我依赖某个人来帮助我， 于是，逐渐地我变得焦虑， 我变得害怕，我精神崩溃，我该怎么办？

问：问题是，我的身体是我自己吗？

克：我们正在讨论那个问题，夫人。
54:55 Q: The question is, is my body myself? 我们讨论过它，而你们都拒绝了，
55:01 K: That is what we are discussing, madame. We talked about it, but you all refused, you want to go off in different directions. 你们想往其它地方跑。
55:20 Q: Sir, I would like to suggest that there are a lot of us here who are in the same situation as the gentleman, but not physically, but in other ways also.

K: Yes, sir. That gentleman says there are a lot of us here, in that position, but not physically. Right? Now how will you talk over it, have a dialogue? 		问：先生，我想说，在这里我们很多人 与这位先生是一样的境地，不过不是在身体上， 而是在其它方面是一样的。

克：是的，先生。 这位先生说，在这里 我们很多人处于那种境地，不过不是在身体方面。对吧？ 那么大家想怎么来讨论，进行对话吗？
55:56 Q: I say that, only to say that I think the dialogue are useful for us. The conversation is very useful for me. 问：我只说一句，我觉得对话对我们非常有用。

问：对话对我非常有用。
56:10 K: Yes. Look, sir, one’s problem is both psychological and physical. Right? Right? One is affected physically, and therefore the nervous organism has been upset, crippled, and it affects one’s thinking, one’s feeling, and one is frightened. That is one problem, which is the result of a physical accident. And the other is, equally one is crippled psychologically. Right? Psychologically one is crippled by belief, dogmas, and all the rest of it, dependence, attachment, fear, and so on. Now can we see these two facts first, not move away from that? The fact one is physically crippled, and the other – psychologically blunted, crippled. Now what shall we do? Or you say, I am perfectly healthy, therefore I will walk out. That’s all right too, you understand? You understand what I am saying? Are you in that position, and say, ‘Sorry, I am not crippled physically, I am not mentally, psychologically, affectionately, I’m not – there is no ugliness, there is nothing crippled, and therefore I am perfectly healthy’ – right? That is a very rare person. 克：好的。注意先生，你的问题既是心理上的，也是生理上的。 对吧？对吧？ 你身体受到了影响，于是造成神经组织的 紊乱，造成残疾，这会影响你的思考， 你的感觉，你会感到害怕。 那是一个问题，那是身体遭遇事故的后果。 另一个问题，同等的问题是心理上的残疾。 对吧？ 你在心理上，被信仰、 教条、依赖、依恋、恐惧，等等，造成残疾。 那么我们能否首先看到这两个事实，不回避它？ 一个事实是生理残疾， 另一个事实是心理上的麻木、残疾。 那么我们怎么办？ 或许你说，我健康而又完美，所以我要走到外面去。 那也很好，你明白吗？ 大家理解我的话吗？ 你们是在那种境地吗？你说：“抱歉，我没有生理残疾， 我在精神上、心理上、情感上都没有缺陷， 没有丑陋的东西，没有带缺陷的东西， 所以我健康而又完美”——对吧？ 那种人非常稀有。
58:06 So we have got these two questions. What is the action – please, follow it – what is the action with regard to the one who has had physical calamity which is affecting his nerves and therefore his brain, his thoughts, his emotions, and all the rest of it, a result of an accident. And the other – psychologically crippled and equally frightened, equally nervous, equally inhibited, equally anxious and developing neurotic attitudes. Right? Both are similar. One you think is physical, the other is psychological, but both are similar. Right? Right, sir? 所以，我们有这样两个问题。 什么是行动——请跟上， 对于一个身体上遭逢不幸事故的人， 神经受到影响，进而他的大脑、思想、情绪以及 其它各方面都受到影响的人，什么是行动。 另一个人，他在心理上有残疾，他同样地害怕， 同样地紧张、同样地拘谨、 同样地焦虑，形成了神经质的思想和行为方式。 对吧？二者是相似的。 你认为一个是生理上的，另一个是心理上的，而二者是相似的。 对吧？对吧？先生？
58:59 Now what is the action with regard to this one thing? Physically affecting the nerves and the brain, and the other – crippled by tradition, crippled by belief, crippled by attachment, crippled by various pressures, job – you follow? – they both come to the same thing. Right? Do you see that? Please. These two are not separate, they are one. Right? One is physical, one is psychological. The physical brings about the psychological results, which is what has happened to most of us, which is psychologically we are crippled. Now what is the action? Right? Right, sirs? Shall I go on with it?

Q: Yes, yes. 		那么，对于这种情况，什么是行动？ 在生理上对神经、大脑的影响，另一个是 传统造成的残疾、信仰造成的残疾、依恋造成的残疾、 各种压力、工作造成的残疾——跟上了吗？ 它们导致了相同的情况。对吧？ 大家明白了吗？注意。 二者不是相互独立的，它们是一个问题。对吧？ 一个是生理上的，一个是心理上的。 生理问题导致了心理上的后果，这正是我们 大多数人所遇到的情况，即我们在心理上是有残疾的。 那么什么是行动？ 对吧?对吧，先生们？ 我继续讨论这个问题好吗？听众：好的，好的。
1:00:06 K: Ah, you see? Conversation, you and I are together sharing it. 克：啊，你看。交谈，大家和我一起来参与对话。
1:00:14 Q: Sir, from this would I have an insight? 问：先生，我会由此获得洞见吗？
1:00:17 K: Just a minute, madame. Look, I will go into it. But we are going into it together. Not I go into it, you listen, then make an idea of it and then pursue it. We are doing it together now. Right? All right. He’s gone to sleep. 克：等一下夫人。听着，我会去调查的。 不过我们是一块儿去调查。 不是我去调查，你听，然后对它形成一个看法，再执行这个看法。 我们现在是一起调查。 对吧？好的。 他睡着了。我们开始调查，好不好？
1:00:43 Shall we go into it. That is, we are having a conversation between you and me. Don’t bother about that gentleman, please. He is tired, he has had an accident, he is in pain, he must be quiet, leave him alone, don’t project your ideas onto him. Gosh! 就是说，你们和我是在进行对话。 请不要管那位先生了。 他累了，他遭遇过事故，他很痛苦， 他必须安静，不要管他，不要把你们的观念投射到他身上。 天啊！那么，对于这种情况来说，什么是行动？
1:01:05 So what is action with regard to this one thing? Human beings are crippled – right? – both psychologically and physically. Some are extravagantly crippled in both ways, others are medium, partially, and what is the action which will correct this thing? Is this clear?

Q: Yes. 		人类是残疾的——对吧——心理上、生理上都有。 有些人两方面都有着极端严重的残疾，其他人是中等残疾， 部分残疾，要纠正这种情况需要采取什么行动？ 这一点清楚了吗？

问：清楚了。
1:01:34 K: Now let’s talk it over together. Why do we – no, wait a minute. Which is most important – this psychological aspect of this, or the physical aspect of this? 克：现在我们一起来深入探讨一下。为什么我们——不，等一下。 这个问题的心理方面， 或者生理方面，哪个最重要？

问：心理方面。

克：如果我知道，或者意识到，
1:01:56 Q: Psychological. 我有心理残疾，又因为
1:02:01 K: If I know, or am aware, that I am psychologically crippled, and because I am psychologically crippled, it gradually affects my body. I have nervous responses, my nerves are on edge, I gradually develop a sense of isolation – you follow? – all the rest of it follows. If I am physically, it is the same thing. So I am saying, which is more important to consider, first? The psychological state of being crippled or the physical state of being crippled? You understand? To which do we give importance? I know the man who has had an accident, he says, for god’s sake, don’t talk to me about psychology, I am in pain, I have had an accident. 心理残疾逐渐地影响到我的身体。 我会产生神经质的反应，我神经紧张，慢慢地形成了 一种孤立感——大家明白吗？——还有随之而来的其它种种问题。 如果我有生理残疾，那是一回事。 所以，我说的是哪一个更重要，应该得到优先考虑？ 是有残疾的心理状态 还是有残疾的生理状态？ 大家理解吗？我们重视的是哪一个？ 我知道这个人他遭遇了车祸，他说，看在上帝的份上， 别跟我讲心理吧，我很痛苦，我遭了车祸。
1:03:13 Q: I am psychologically aware. 问：我在心理上意识到了。
1:03:26 K: I am asking you, sirs, and ladies, to which do you give importance? To the physical or psychological? 克：我问的是先生们，还有女士们，我们重视的是哪一个？ 生理方面还是心理方面？

问：都重视。
1:03:37 Q: Both of them.

Q: Psychological. 		问：心理方面。

克：小心，小心。
1:03:39 K: Careful, careful. If I am physically affected, would I consider psychology? See the difficulty. I have been run over, I am crippled and it is affecting my mind. My mind has already been affected by society, by my parents – you follow? Only this incident has added more to it. 如果我身体受到了影响，我会考虑心理吗？ 你看这其中的困难。 我被车轧了，我伤残了，这影响到了我的心。 我的心早已受到了社会、父母的影响——跟上了吗？ 这次事故只是雪上加霜。 那么哪个更重要？
1:04:16 So which is more important? I don’t neglect the physical. Right? I say I will go into it, first. I will go into it after I have understood whether I am crippled psychologically, or the physical is making me crippled, psychologically. So I am investigating, being psychologically crippled, the result of a physical accident, the result of living in a monstrous society, wrong kind of education, wrong kind of acquiring knowledge, and so on, so on, that has crippled my mind. So I see psychologically, if I can understand the whole structure of the psyche, then I can attend to the physical. But the man who is in pain, he says, ‘No, please, give me some kind of drug, some kind of opiate, some kind of thing that will quieten me down’ – right? Then the doctor is important, not me. Right? But if it is psychological state, psychological crookedness, unclarity, crippledness, I think that can be cleared – you follow? That can be completely whole. Then with that clarity of mind I can attend to my physical ailments. Do we agree to this? Madame, I can’t hear. Perhaps somebody who has heard, sitting near to you, can explain what you have said. Nobody is willing to translate, so I can’t help you. 我不是忽视生理方面的问题。对吧？ 我说我要先对它进行调查。 我先要明白我究竟是心理上有残疾， 还是身体原因造成了心理上的残疾，然后我再去调查。 所以我是在对心理处于残疾这种状态进行调查， 这是身体遭遇事故的结果，也是生活在 这个丑恶的社会、错误的教育方式、错误的 获取知识的方式等等摧残我的心的因素所造成的结果。 所以，我在心理上明白，如果我能够理解心的整个结构， 那么我就可以去处理生理方面的问题了。 而这个人处在痛苦之中，他说： “不，拜托，给我来点儿药品，麻醉剂， 或者别的什么东西，让我安静下来吧”——对吧？ 那么，重要的就是医生，而不是我了，对吧？ 而如果问题是心理状态、心理扭曲、 不清晰和残疾，我认为是那可以得到解决的——大家明白吗？ 可以让它彻底地完整起来。 然后，我可以用我清晰的头脑去处理生理方面的疾病。 我们同意这一点吗？

问：（听不清）

克：夫人，我听不见。或许有谁 坐在你近旁，听见了，可以解释一下你的话。 （停顿）没有人愿意转达，我就没法帮你了。
1:06:59 So I am saying myself, this being crippled psychologically, can that be made whole? That is the question, which needs action. I can’t sit down and say I will make it whole. Or go off into a monastery. It can’t be done. It needs action, I have to do something. Right? 所以，我说的是我自己， 在心理上有残疾，能否使它们完整起来？ 就是这个问题，这需要行动。 我不能坐下来说我会让它变完整。 或者躲到修道院里。那无济于事。 它需要行动。我必须做些什么。对吧？
1:07:26 Q: Sir, I am sorry to interrupt, but I feel that now we are putting our foot into an old, old trap. And the trap is that we sit here and watch you perform. We are perfectly sure we know it, we have seen you do it a hundred times. We know that in half an hour you can totally break out of all psychological problems, and probably physical and spiritual and everything else. Unfortunately, sir, maybe I am odd man out, if so, I may sense a certain hostility on the part of some members of the audience, who may feel that I am throwing a spanner in the works. They want to watch you break out on cloud nine; if so, I don’t want to interfere with them, I am happy to leave. 问：先生，抱歉打断您一下， 我感觉我们现在掉进一个老早就有的陷阱里去了。 这个陷阱就是我们坐在这里看着你表演。 我们早就知道，我们已经见你表演过一百次了。 我们知道半小时后你就会完全摆脱所有的心理 问题，很可能也会摆脱生理、精神等一切问题。 不幸的是，先生，也许我与别人格格不入, 若是如此，我可能会感觉到一些听众对我的 某种敌意，他们或许以为我是在捣乱。 他们想看着你挣脱出去并站在九霄之上 ——要是这样，我不想干涉他们，我乐意离开。
1:08:21 K: Avanti, sir. Go on, sir. Sir, I am listening to you. If they are antagonistic, let them be. 克：接着说，先生。先生，我在听你讲呢。 如果他们抱有敌意，不要理会他们。

问：我可以马上离开。
1:08:28 Q: I can leave immediately.

K: Come on, sir. 		克：接着说先生。

问：那么先生，据我所见，是这样的。
1:08:31 Q: So, sir, as I see it, it’s like this. Ten minutes ago, after having spent 50 minutes, you came to a point where you felt that we were all just pussy-footing around with the thing, talking theoretically, not really having the least bit of gumption to get into this thing. All we wanted to do was to theorise and watch you do the trick. Then in despair perhaps, you seemed to have washed your hands of the whole thing, resigned yourself to the fact that we were a lot of useless nincompoops, and decided to have a dialogue with yourself, which is what you have been doing for a long time. If so, it seems to me that it can only harm me, because watching you, have a dialogue with yourself is very entertaining, may be a bit instructive, I've seen you doing a lot of times, but it is not going to get me anywhere. 十分钟前，就是进行了五十分钟之后， 你说到，你感觉我们全都是 围着问题轻手轻脚地兜圈子，空谈理论， 丝毫没有深入问题中去的决心和勇气。 我们只想进行理论解释，和看着你表演这个把戏。 然后，可能是因为失望，你似乎一甩手 全都不管了，只好让自己接受这个事实，即我们是 一大群无用的傻瓜，于是你决定跟 自己对话，这是你长期以来的一贯做法。 若是这样，在我看来它只会对我有害，看着你 和自己对话非常有趣， 或许还有点启发，我见你这么做过很多次了， 可是它对我毫无用处。
1:09:32 K: No, sir. Quite right. 克：是的，先生。非常正确。
1:09:35 Q: Since it seems as though this is the only choice: either we have got to have the gumption... 问：因为看起来只有一个选择： 要么是我们有决心（gumption）
1:09:41 K:...guts. 克：…决心（guts）。

问：…有决心去和你对话，
1:09:42 Q:...guts to have a real dialogue with you, which means we have got to care about this thing. 这意味着我们必须关心这件事。
1:09:49 K: Yes, sir.

Q: It means we have to stop saying, how much benefit we are getting, and please, go along and carry on, and nobody should interrupt, and so forth. I mean even when our friend Krityan interrupted and said that he feels that most people here look on you as an enlightened person; you didn’t want to go into all that, but it is perfectly true. We do look on you as an enlightened person. Unfortunately the fact that we do so means that we can’t listen to you at all. And I don’t think we are listening to you. 		克：是的，先生。

问：这意味着我们必须不再 说听你讲话，我们如何受益匪浅，请这样 继续进行下去，谁也不要打断等等。 我的意思是，甚至在我们的朋友Krityan插话说 他感觉这里大多数人把你视为觉者的时候， 你也根本不想讨论这个问题，但它是千真万确的事实。 我们的确视你为觉者。 不幸的是，我们这么想 意味着我们根本无法听你讲话。 我认为我们并没有听你讲话。

克：就是这样。是的先生，我明白。
1:10:25 K: That’s all. Yes, sir, I know this. 问：那么就告诉我该怎么办，让我摆脱这个问题，
1:10:26 Q: So now just tell me what I should do, put me out of my problem, because to carry on sitting here I feel I just have to listen while you do your act. It is a marvellous act. I want to be in that chair, I don’t want to listen to you do it, I know you can.

K: Sir. I have made it perfectly clear, all along I have said, please, there is no authority, don’t say the other is enlightened, and all the rest of that business. I say, look at yourself – right, sir? be serious, be committed, put your whole mind into it. Right?

Q: Quite right, sir. 		继续坐在这里， 你在表演的时候，我感觉我只有听的份儿， 这个表演非常精彩， 我也想坐在那把椅子上，我不想按着你说的去做， 我知道你会做到的。

克：先生。 这一点我已经说的非常清楚，请注意我一直在说， 没有权威，不要说别人开悟了 等等那一类话。 我说的是，观察你自己——对吧？ 严肃地、全心全意地、全神贯注地观察你自己。 对吧？

问：非常正确，先生。
1:11:09 K: I have been saying this at every meeting. 克：每次会上我都说这个问题。
1:11:13 Q: I don’t blame you at all, sir. 问：先生，我一点没有责备你的意思。
1:11:24 K: I have been saying there is no authority. I have been saying, please, the speaker is not at all important. You are important as a human being, let us talk about that. But apparently we don’t do that. So what shall we do? 克：我一直讲没有权威。 我一直在说，注意，讲话者根本就不重要。 作为一个人，你才是重要的，咱们讨论那个问题。 可是显然我们没有那么做。 那么我们该怎么办？

问：我不知道。
1:11:45 Q: I don’t know.

K: I do know. 		克：我知道。

问：你知道？
1:11:48 Q: You do know. What is it, sir? Give me any answer other than having a dialogue with yourself. 答案是什么，先生？告诉我答案，不要和你自己对话。
1:11:58 K: No, I don’t want to have a dialogue with myself. I can in my room, or on my walks, or with some few people, I can have that dialogue. That is not the kind of dialogue one wants. What is important, what is necessary, is that you, all of you, put your mind, your heart into this, not say, you are enlightened, we will listen to you. Wipe all that out. Right, sir?

Q: Quite right, sir. 		克：是的，我不想和我自己对话。 我在自己的房间里，或者走在路上， 或者和几个人在一块儿时，我会那样对话。 你想要的不是那种对话。 重要的一点、必要的一点，是你们， 你们所有人全身心地投入到这里面来， 而不是说，你开悟了，我们要听你的。 那些想法都给它清除干净。 对吧，先生？

问：非常正确先生。
1:12:29 K: But what am I to do – sir, look at it! I keep on, the speaker keeps on, insisting on this every day of his life: don’t follow, don’t imitate, don’t conform, think it out, observe. But our whole conditioning is the other. Right? 克：可是我该怎么办，先生，看看这个问题！ 我，这个讲话的人，在他生命的每一天里，一直在坚持这一点： 不跟从，不模仿，不遵循，透彻地思考，观察。 可是我们的全部制约就是那个“别人”。对吧？
1:13:02 Q: We have to have an authority, there are too many people here. 问：我们必须得有权威，这里人太多了。
1:13:12 K: Is it a question of too many people? Sir, there are not too many people if you really want to find out for yourself. Then your whole attention is drawn, and you are examining. 克：这是人太多的问题吗？ 先生，人并不多， 你要是真的想亲自查明真相， 你就会投入全部的注意力，你就是在调查。

问：必须有人来负责，真的，它确实
1:13:34 Q: Somebody must be in charge, we believe that, so it stops us from really listening. 妨碍了我们真正去听。

克：我不是主持人。
1:13:39 K: I am not the chairman. I am not taking charge of each of the audience. I say, please, let’s work together, I say, let’s think together. Platform, sitting, for the speaker on a platform has no meaning, because it is only for convenience. Forget all that. Let’s think together. But you won’t even do that. What am I to do? 我不是在为每位听众主持会议。 我是说，让我们一块儿工作吧，我是说，咱们一起来思考。 讲台，座位，让讲话者 坐在台上没有任何意义，它只是为了方便。 把那些都忘掉，咱们一起来思考吧。 你们甚至都不肯那么去做。我该怎么办呢？

问：克里希那穆提， 我感到你…
1:14:06 Q: Krishnamurti, I experience that you do it, I experience that you are doing it again. You are expressing your frustration, perhaps your disappointment about the audiences as it has been for years and years and years. I think the same thing will probably happen tomorrow and the day after. I will be finished quickly. I have been waiting to meet you in person for quite a while. I have read a book written by Rom Landau about his meeting with you, maybe 30 or 40 years ago, the same frustration, the same anxiety, the same disappointment you expressed to him then, you are expressing now. What I experienced in the book was a man of real love, of real humanitarian concern. What I experience now is an older man, who makes side comments, who is frustrated, who says ‘what is going on?’ I think that we can continue, but it is not going to change. There has to be a different format. The question has to become more pertinent, more vital. 我感到你在故技重施。 你对听众表达懊丧，可能还有失望， 就像你年复一年的那种表现一样。 我认为明天、后天很可能还会如此。 我马上就说完了。 我一直在等待跟你见面，很长时间了，期待跟你本人见面。 我读过罗姆·兰道写的书，里面提到四五十年前 他和你的会面，那时候，你对他表示了 和现在同样的懊丧、同样的焦虑和同样的失望。 在那本书里，我感受到的是一个有着真正的爱、 真正的人道主义关怀的人。 而我现在感受到的这个人老了，只会做一面的评论， 他垂头丧气，他问“正在发生什么事情？” 我认为我们可以这样继续，但这不会发生改变。 必须得有一种不同的形式。 问题必须更确切，更有生气。
1:15:11 K: But, sir, you say the question should become more vital, more personal, more intense, I will do it. 克：对，先生。你说问题应该更有生气， 与个人关系更密切，更尖锐，我会这样做的。

问：你为什么不停止讲话，让我们自己来？
1:15:20 Q: Why don’t you stop speaking and leave us to it? 克：太乐意了！（笑声）等一下。
1:15:27 K: Delighted! Wait a minute. Why don’t you stop speaking and leave us in the tent. Is that what you want? 为什么你不停止讲话，让我们自己待在帐篷里。 你们是想那样吗？

问：是的。
1:15:45 Q: Yes. 问：我不知道。

问：你怎么让他们醒来？
1:15:47 Q: I don’t know.

Q: How can you make them awake? 		问：我想，在几分钟前，我们在讨论心理
1:15:57 Q: I think, a couple minutes ago we were talking about psychological and physical relationships and how they were both a kind of... So, the first point that I thought was important was that everybody had to realise that they had this psychological incapability. How many people really realised or even looked at our psychological shortcomings? How many people examine exactly what that all involves? No, don’t clap, but that is the point. 和生理的关系，它们是如何… 嗯，心理是更重要的过程。 我认为第一个要点在于， 每个人都必须意识到他们存在心理缺陷。 有多少人真的意识到或者 哪怕是审视一下我们的心理缺陷。 有多少人确实意识到了心理缺陷所造成的影响？（鼓掌） 别，不要鼓掌。那就是问题所在。
1:16:34 K: I would clap too, but I don’t under here. 克：我不会鼓掌的，不过我忍不住也要鼓掌。（笑声）
1:16:40 Q: You have to acknowledge the fact that they are psychological cripples. 问：你得承认这个事实，他们有心理残疾。
1:16:44 K: How many people are willing to acknowledge that they are psychological cripples. You can’t. Unless I say I am blind, please, help me, then I can do something. But if I say, ‘No, I am sorry, I see quite clearly’, there is no point. 克：有多少人愿意承认他们 有心理残疾。你没有办法。 除非我说我是盲人，请帮助我，那么我可以做一些事情。 可是如果我说：“不，抱歉，我看得非常清楚”，那就没有办法了。
1:17:05 Q: Most people were saying that they realised they were psychologically crippled, and at the time I felt the question was what to do, how to get over it. 问：大多数人说的是， 他们意识到了他们有心理残疾， 而那时我觉得问题是如何去做，如何去克服。

克：我会给你指出来，你必须得亲自去做。
1:17:23 K: I will point it out to you, and you will have to do it yourself. Is that right?

Q: Yes. 		对吧？

问：对。
1:17:29 K: Will you listen then? And do it! 克：你会听，然后去做吗？并实践一下！
1:17:33 Q: What happens? 问：发生了什么？

问：你怎么知道？
1:17:36 Q: How do you know? 克：什么？什么？
1:17:38 K: What? What? 问：他说，会发生什么？
1:17:39 Q: He says what will happen. 克：我该怎么办？
1:17:52 K: What am I to do? 问：我似乎…

克：不，注意，这个问题很严肃。
1:17:55 Q: It seems to me that uh... 你们甚至都没有耐心
1:17:56 K: No, please, this is a serious question. You won’t even have the courtesy to listen to find out what the man is saying. And then see if it applies to you. If it applies to you, then say, ‘Let me put my energy, my guts, my whole heart into it to be free of it’. You don’t do that. What am I to do? 弄明白这个人说的是什么。 然后看看它是否适合你。 要是适合于你，然后你说： “我要投入我的全部精力，下定决心，全身心投入进去，摆脱这个问题。” 你们没有这么做。我该怎么办呢？
1:18:28 Q: Some of us do that, Krishnaji. I have done it. 问：我们有人那样做了，克里希那吉。我这么做了。
1:18:31 K: If you do it, so much the better. 克：你做了，那就更好了。
1:18:34 Q: We can’t. 问：我们做不到。
1:18:45 K: I can’t do what you are saying. 克：你说的我做不到。
1:18:49 Q: Can we ask why the people who cannot do that and who keep on coming here year after year, they come here to say they cannot do it, but why can’t they do it? Can they tell us why they can’t do it. 问：我们可不可以问一下， 为什么有人做不到还年复一年地来这里， 他们来到这里，说他们做不到，可是为什么他们做不到？ 他们能告诉我们为什么他们做不到吗？
1:19:04 K: I know it, sir. It will become another dialogue with myself. Will you listen why you cannot go into it yourself, go into the cause of it, break the cause and move out of that? 克：我知道为什么，先生。它会变成另一个我和自己的对话了。 你愿意听吗？为什么你不能自己去调查， 调查那个原因，打破那个原因，从里面走出来吗？
1:19:19 Q: How? 问：怎么走出来？

克：如果我指出来，你会去做吗？

问：会的。
1:19:20 K: If it is pointed out, will you do it? 问：不会起作用的。

问：你怎么知道？

克：我不知道，你会去做吗？
1:19:22 Q: Yes.

Q: It won’t work. 		问：（听不见）
1:19:24 Q: How do you know? 克：我想成为一个优秀的木匠，于是我去拜访懂行的人，
1:19:26 K: I don’t know, but will you do it? I want to be a good carpenter, and I go to the man who knows, who is an expert, a master carpenter, or I learn from a scientist, because I want to be a scientist, I want to learn, I want to have a clear mind. But apparently you don’t. Or you go halfway and stop. 行家里手、能工巧匠， 或者我向一位科学家学习，我想当一名科学家， 我要学习，我要拥有一个清楚的头脑。 显然你没有这么想。要么你就是半途而废。
1:20:10 Q: What is the necessary action? 问：必要的行动是什么？

克：痛苦对你有帮助吗？
1:20:13 K: Will suffering help you? Will somebody hitting you on the head? Offering you a reward of heaven if you do this, this, this? 让人敲打你的脑袋有用吗？ 你要是这么、这么做，就给你天堂的奖赏？
1:20:28 So one says to oneself: perhaps somebody amongst you will catch this. Right? Like grain thrown out, it might fall on the rocks, or on a fertile field, or just die by itself. But the man who is throwing out the grain he can’t help it. You understand? He does it. He does it, maybe out of affection, compassion, love, and all the rest of that business. And so he is not concerned where the seed drops. Right? 所以，你对自己说， 或许你们中间有些人会理解这一点——对吧？ 就像播撒出去的谷粒，它可能落在石头上面， 或者落在肥沃的土地上面，或者只能任其自灭， 那个播撒谷粒的人无能为力。 大家明白吗？他做这件事。 他做这件事，或许是出于关怀、 慈悲、爱等等。 所以，他不关心种子落在什么地方。对吧？
1:21:12 Q: Sir, let us go home now and put some fertiliser on ourselves. 问：先生，让我们现在回家，给自己施些肥料。
1:21:16 K: I am doing that, sir. I am doing that. Will you listen? Will you say: this is my problem, I have got to solve it. I will put my life into it, my energy into it, my guts, my feelings, to find out. Will you do it?

Q: Yes. 		克：我在做这件事，先生。我在做这件事。 你们愿意听吗？ 你会说这是我的问题，我必须把它解决吗？ 为了查明真相，我将付出我的生命， 我的能量，我的决心和我的真情实感。 你会这么做吗？

问：会。
1:21:44 Q: Sir, I would like to ask the gentleman a question: why does it not work? Could you answer that question: why it won’t work? 问：先生，我想问这位先生一个问题：为什么它不起作用？ 你能回答那个问题吗？为什么它不起作用？
1:21:55 K: Sir, let him come and sit down. Please, sir, let’s get on with what I am saying, don’t bother, if they are wanting to come, who doesn’t come. Look, you’ve spent your energy telling somebody why you come. And I’m telling you, will you, as a human being, listen and put your whole energy into this, as you put your energy into earning a livelihood, when you want sex, when you want this or that, you put your guts into it. Why don’t you do it? 克：先生，让他过来坐下。

克：拜托，先生，咱们接着说我在讲的东西。 他们过不过来，不要操心了。 听着（笑），你把精力花在问人家你为什么来上面了。 我在问你，作为一个人， 你能不能听到之后，把你全部的精力投入进去， 就像你为了谋生而全力以赴，就像你在想要得到性， 想要这个或者那个的时候那样？你能下定决心去做吗？ 为什么你不去做呢？
1:22:31 Q: That’s the question, sir: why don’t we do it? Why do we go halfway? 问：那就是问题，先生：为什么我们没有做？ 为什么我们半途而废？
1:22:47 K: You see, at the end of nearly two hours, an hour and a half, we haven’t even discovered for ourselves, not I have a dialogue myself and do a performance like an actor, I am not that. I will walk out of this tent if I feel it was hopeless, and you will never see me again. I mean it. But I feel somebody amongst you will take the coin, somebody will say, yes, I have got it, let me go with you. And I will go on doing this all my life. Somebody will catch some fire. If you don’t, you don’t. That is not my business.

Q: It is. 		克：你们看，在差不多两个小时，一个半小时之后， 我们甚至没有为我们自己发现什么，我不是在 和自己对话，像演员一样表演，我不是那种人。 我要是感到绝望，我会走出这个帐篷， 你们就再也见不到我了。 真的。 我感觉你们中间有些人会心领神会， 有人会说，是的，我明白了，我和你一块儿走吧。 终此一生，我会一直讲下去。 有些人会得到些启示。 你要是没有，你就没有。 那不是我的事。

问：的确。
1:23:59 K: Look, sir, an hour and a half. What have we done in the morning? You, not me. I am very clear what I am doing. Whether two people listen, or a thousand listen, I will go on, or nobody listens, it doesn’t matter, I will go on. So leave me out of it. But if you are willing to listen, go into it, we will go together into the very depth of it. But you must give your energy. It is like those people, having their own particular guru, and coming here, and saying, yes, I will listen to you. Or having their own opinions, conclusions and not letting them go. Our relationship is together. You understand? You and the speaker together take a walk into the whole psychological world. This is not my performance, it is you have to act. Right? 克：你看，先生，一个半小时了。 我们做了什么？你们，不是我。 我很清楚我在做什么。 不管是两个人听，还是一千人听， 我会继续讲，或者没有人听， 都没关系，我会继续讲。 所以，把我除外。 如果你们想听， 就去调查，我们一起把问题调查个水落石出。 而你必须投入你的精力。 就像有自己的什么古鲁的那些人， 他们到这儿来，说，好的我会听你讲的。 或者抱着自己的观点、结论，固执己见的那些人。 我们的关系是在一起——大家理解吗？ 你们和讲话者在整个心理世界里一起散步。 这不是我的表演，需要去行动的是你们。对吧？
1:25:21 So shall we go on tomorrow? 那么我们明天还接着讨论吗？

问：是的，接着讨论。
1:25:24 Q: Yes, yes. 克：明天要是继续讨论，咱们得真正地讨论：
1:25:25 K: If we go on tomorrow, let’s do it properly: that you are really serious and want to go into it to the very depth of it – you, not me. Right, sir. 你们得确实严肃， 想要把问题弄个水落石出——你们，不是我。 对吧，先生。