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SA79D2 - 搞清楚什么是爱
第二次公开讨论，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月26日



1:02 Krishnamurti: Before we begin our dialogue I think we ought to clear up some points that arose yesterday towards the end of the meeting. 在开始讨论之前，我想我们应该把 昨天会议最后出现的几个问题解决了。
1:24 We seem to be blocking ourselves. Some say it is not possible, what you are talking about can never be put in daily life. ‘I have listened to you for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and nothing has happened, I am just the same as before’. That is a block that prevents each one, or the person who says these things, it prevents him from investigating himself. He has blocked himself, saying, ‘It is not possible’. That’s obvious. 我们好像是在给自己设置障碍。 有的人说，那是不可能的， 你讲的东西在日常生活里行不通。 “我已经听你讲了有20、30、40、50年了， 什么也没发生，我依然故我。” 那就是障碍，它妨碍着每个人，每一个 说这些话的人，它妨碍了他对自己的调查， 他说“那不可能”的时候，就已经给自己设下了障碍。 这是显而易见的。
2:27 And also there are those who say, ‘I understand partially, I want to understand the whole before I can do something’. Again that is a block. Again that prevents your own investigation of yourselves, you are blocking yourself. 还有人说：“我理解了一部分， 我想在完全理解之后再去做点什么” 这又是一个障碍。 那还是会妨碍你对你自己的调查， 你是在自设障碍。
2:58 And there are those who say, ‘What you are saying is totally impractical, why don’t you stop talking and go away?’ Such people, and I have heard this very often, not only prevent their own investigation of themselves but also because one person can’t do it himself, he condemns the rest of the world – because if I can’t do it, you can’t do it. And so this goes on. 还有些人说：“你讲的那些东西 完全不切实际，你为什么不闭嘴，走开？” 这种人，我经常听到这种论调， 他们不仅妨碍他们对自己的调查， 而且还因为他自己做不到就谴责 周围所有的人——因为我要是不行，你也不行。 所以一直有这种现象。
3:49 We’ll start the discussion... As I said, please, let me talk a little, and then we will have a dialogue. If we could, this morning and the next four mornings, realise, if I may point out, that we are not a whole 1000 or 2000 people in the tent, but we are talking to each other, single person. You understand? You and the speaker are talking together. When we two talk together, it includes all the others – bound to. And I’d like to point out, if I may again, please, don’t hinder yourself by blocking yourself, by saying, ‘I can’t do this, it is impossible. You are a biological freak, and this is not applicable to ordinary people’. Or, ‘You have to have special genes to understand all this’. One finds innumerable excuses, one finds every form of avoidance of looking into one’s own hindrances, observing them closely, understanding them and trying to put them aside. If we could do that, then perhaps we could have better communication with each other. Please. 我们开始讨论。就像我说过的… 请让我先说几句，然后我们再讨论。 今天上午，还有接下来的四个上午，如果我们能够认识到， 要是我可以指出的话，我们不是把帐篷里的一千或两千人 作为一个整体那样交谈，而是在同单个的人互相交谈。 你们理解吗？ 你是在和讲话者一起交谈。 我们两人一起交谈是包括了所有其他人的，——这是必然的。 容我再次指出，请不要自设障碍， 不要堵住自己的思路，不要说：“这个我做不到，它是不可能的。 你是个生物怪胎，这种事情对普通人不适用”。 或者说：“要想理解这一切，得有特殊的基因才行。” 你会找无数的借口， 你会想方设法地逃避，而不是调查你自己的障碍， 仔细地观察它们，理解它们，并设法把它们放下。 要是我们能够做到那一点， 或许我们彼此之间就能够更好地沟通了。 请注意。
5:53 And also I would like to point out: I think we don’t listen, we don’t really try to find out what the other person is trying to say. And listening requires certain attention, care, affection. If I want to understand what you are saying, I must listen to you, not block myself all the way, all the time. I must care for what you are saying, I must have respect, I must have affection, love, otherwise we can’t communicate certain things which are really very, very serious and require a great deal of enquiry. So if I may suggest that we listen with affection, with care. All these dialogues and what happened yesterday indicated that we have very little love for each other. Right? We want to assert our own points of view. We want to exercise our own opinions and dominate others by our judgements, by our conclusions, by our asserting that we have listened to you for so long, why haven’t we changed. All that indicates, it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that there is no real love. I am not blaming anybody, I am just stating this. Don’t get… don’t ride the high horse! 我还要指出的是：我认为我们没有听， 我们没有真正地尽力搞清楚别人试图表达的究竟是什么。 聆听需要有一定的注意、关心、关爱， 我要想明白你在说什么，我就必须听你说， 而不是不断地给自己制造障碍。 我必须在意你讲的是什么，我必须尊重别人，必须怀有 关怀和爱，否则，我们无法就某些 非常非常严肃，而且需要进行大量探索的问题进行交流。 所以，要是可以的话，我建议大家带着关爱和关心去听。 从所有这些对话，还有昨天发生的事情来看， 我们彼此之间太缺乏爱了。 对吧？ 我们想要坚持自己的观点。 我们想要坚持我们的意见、我们的结论， 坚持说，我们听你讲了这么长时间， 为什么我们没有改变，我们要以此来左右别人的想法。 那一切都表明， 在我看来，可能我说的不对，这其中没有真正的爱。 我不是谴责谁，我只是陈述事实。 我认为我们应该深入地调查这个问题，为什么我们不听。
8:24 And I think we should go into this question deeply, why we don’t listen. Or we say, ‘Yes, I have listened’ – finished. ‘I have already listened to you for 20 years, so over, I am not going to listen to you any more’. You don’t say that to a child, do you, whom you love? He wants to tell you something. He may be telling it to you ten times, he has already told you, but the next time he says something you listen. You don’t brush him aside. You are not impatient. You love that child. And I think in all these discussions and dialogues and talks we are missing that essential perfume. I don’t think we know what it is to listen with love, which doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be critical, which doesn’t mean that we should accept everything that is said. It doesn’t also mean that we agree or disagree. You listen, listen with care, with affection, with a sense of communication with each other. And for that one must have love. And probably that is what is missing. We are all too terribly intellectual, or too romantic, or too sentimental. All that denies love. 或者我们说：“是的，我们听过了”——结束了。 “我已经听你讲了二十年了，完毕。” “我不想再听你讲了”。 你不会对一个小孩说那些话，你会对你心爱的孩子这么说话吗？ 他要告诉你些事儿。 他可能跟你讲了十次了，他已经告诉过你了， 但是在下一次，他跟你说的时候，你会听的。 你不会不理他。 你不会没有耐心。 你爱这个孩子。 我觉得在所有这些讨论、对话 和谈话里面，我们缺少这个极为重要的、精华的东西。 我觉得我们不懂得如何带着爱去听， 这不是说我们不可以批评， 不是说我们应该相信别人说的一切。 这也并不意味着我们应该同意或反对。 你去听，带着关心、 关爱，带着彼此沟通的感觉去听。 为此，你一定要有爱。 而我们缺乏的很可能就是爱。 我们全都智力发达得不得了，要么就是过于浪漫，过于多愁善感。 那些全都否定了爱。
10:24 So perhaps, if we could this morning have a dialogue of whatever you want, whatever subject you want, bearing in mind that without this quality of affection, care, love and compassion we merely play with words, remain superficial, antagonistic, assertive, dogmatic, and so on. It remains merely verbal, it has no depth, no quality, no perfume. So bearing that in mind, what subject would you like to talk about this morning? 所以，如果今天上午我们可以进行对话，不管你们想谈什么， 不管是什么话题，或许我们应该记住，没有这种品质的 关爱、关心、爱和同情， 我们就只不过是在玩文字游戏， 我们就依旧停留在肤浅、对抗、固执、教条等等那个层面上。 它就停留在口头上，却没有任何深度、美质和芬芳。 所以，记住这一点， 那么大家今天上午想讨论什么话题呢？
11:22 Q: Sir, could we continue with our discussion yesterday of action, and how to deal with mental and physical disability? 问：先生，我们继续昨天关于行动的讨论， 还有如何处理心理和身体上的残疾，好吗？
11:32 K: Could you go into again, as we began yesterday, the questioner asks, could we discuss action. 克： 你能否再谈谈… 就像我们昨天开始时，提问者问，我们能否讨论一下行动？

问：我们可能一起思考吗，
11:44 Q: Is it possible to have thinking together if only one person wants to have it? 要是只有一个人想要这么做？
11:49 K: Is it possible to think together if the other person refuses to think together? 克：我们可能一起思考吗， 如果另一个人拒绝的话？（笑声）

问：我不太理解你说的记录是什么意思。
12:04 Q: I have difficulty in understanding what you mean by registration. In English we use the word meaning to become aware of something, as in registering an impression, registering discomforts. But you seem to use or classify this recording. Would you go into that? 在英语当中，这个词的意思是意识到了什么， 记录一次印象，记录不适的感觉。 不过您似乎是在利用这种记录或者对它进行分类。
12:22 K: Would you go into the whole question of what you mean by registration. To register something, to remember something, to acknowledge, like a tape on which you register. Right? Could we go into that? 你可以讲一讲这个吗？

克：你说的记录指的是什么，你能讨论一下这个问题吗？ 记录什么，回忆起什么， 认出来，像记录在磁带一样。是吗？ 我们可以讨论一下这个吗？
12:40 Q: Why are we satisfied in the way we are living? 问：为什么我们满足于我们这种生活方式？
12:48 K: Why are we satisfied in the way we are living. 克：为什么我们满足于我们这种生活方式？
12:54 Q: What is the relationship, or the difference, between the nature of thought and the mechanics of thinking? One thought appears to follow the other even for no special reason, and the movement of thought can be violent, even if the content of the thought, you thought was positive. 问：思想的本质与思考的机制， 二者的关系或者差异是什么？ 念头莫名其妙地、接二连三地冒出来， 即使你以为你思想的内容是正面的， 思想的运动却可能是暴力的。
13:19 K: I have not quite understood it, sir. 克：先生，我不太理解这句话的意思。
13:25 Q: I am interested in the mechanics of thinking, and the difference or the relationship between the mechanics and thought itself. 问：我对于思考的机制和思考 本身之间的区别或者关系感兴趣。
13:34 K: You would like to examine the whole structure of thought. 克：你想要探讨整个思想的结构。
13:41 Q: Not the structure of thought itself but the mechanics of thinking too. 问：不只是思想自身的结构，还有思考的机制。
13:45 K: Mechanics, that’s what... We are using the word perhaps differently. We will use the word, the mechanics of thinking. 克：机制，就是…可能我们用词方式不同。 我们用思考的机制这个词吧。
13:57 Q: Because I noticed that it is possible to have neutral or positive thoughts, but the mechanics of this thinking is functioning very well. 问：因为我注意到有可能思想是中性或者正面的， 可是这个思考的机制却运作得非常好。
14:12 K: I am not quite sure I understand it, sir. 克：先生，我不太明白你的意思。

问：他是说，存在着区别，思想的内容
14:18 Q: I think he is saying that there is difference: inside the thought could be positive, but in the way it expresses itself, negative. 可以是正面的，而其表达自身的方式却是负面的。
14:29 Q: Yes. Maybe thought is surviving, like animals in the jungle, which is havoc, even though the content of the thought is positive. 问：对。也许思想想要存在下去，就像丛林里的动物一样， 这造成了混乱，尽管其内容是正面的。

问：（意大利语）

克：啊！思考总是机械的吗？
14:51 K: Ah! Is thinking always mechanical, or is there a different kind of thinking which is non-mechanical. 或者说有没有一种非机械的思考呢？
15:01 Q: No. That is not the same. My thinking often doesn’t flow very well. There is violence in the thoughts, in the mechanics, but not in the content of the thought. Positive thought can be violent. 问：不是。不是这个意思。 我的思考经常不够流畅。 在思想和思想的机制当中， 而不是思想的内容当中存在着暴力。 正面的思想也可能是暴力的。

克：正面的思想也是暴力的。
15:24 K: Positive thought is violence, too. All right, sir. I think we’ll answer that. Just sit down, sir, we’ll go into it. 好的先生。我想我们会回答那个问题的。 坐下吧，先生。我们会谈到它的。

问：为什么我们缺乏爱？
15:36 Q: Why is love missing? Why don’t we love? 为什么我们没有爱？

克：为什么我们没有爱？
15:52 K: Why don’t we love. Sir, when you put a question like that, are you saying, why don’t I love? Not why don’t we love? Why isn’t there love in my heart, or in my being? Would that be right, sir? Right. 先生，你这样提问的的时候， 意思是说，为什么我没有爱吗？ 不要问为什么我们没有爱。 为什么我的内心或者我的生命当中没有爱？ 这样问好吗，先生？对吧。还有其它问题吗？
16:27 Any other questions? 问：你说过，思想是局限的，
16:29 Q: You said that thought is limited, and yet if we look around, thought has conquered the whole of humanity. I would like you to elaborate on that, please. 可是如果我们环顾四周，就会看到思想已经征服了整个人类。 我想请您详细阐述一下那个问题。
16:46 K: You say thought is limited, but every action is based on thought. All the activities – social, economic, religious, personal – are based on thought. 克：你说思想是局限的，可是每个行动都是以思想为基础的， 所有的行动，无论是社会行动， 还是经济的、宗教的或者个人的行动，都是以思想为基础的。
17:05 Q: And it has conquered the whole of humanity. 问：而且它已经征服了整个人类。
17:08 K: And it is a common factor of whole humanity. 克：而且它是所有人类的共同因素。
17:13 Q: It has conquered the whole of humanity. 问：它征服了全人类。
17:17 K: It has conquered the whole world. All right, sir. 克：它征服了全人类。好的，先生。
17:23 Q: I’m still interested in how I am blocking myself. 问：我感兴趣的，还是我是怎样给自己造成障碍的。
17:28 K: Yes, sir. The gentleman says he is still interested in that question where he has had an accident, it has affected his whole nervous system, and therefore his brain and his activity in life. 克：可以，先生。这位先生仍然对这个问题感兴趣， 他遭遇了一场事故，这影响到他的神经系统， 进而影响到他的大脑和生活。
17:44 Q: Sir, is it possible to know something without having to show something? 问：有没有可能明白了什么而不必表现出来？
18:03 K: Is it possible to know something without... 克：有没有可能明白了什么却…
18:10 Q:...having to show something. 问：不必表现出来…
18:43 K: So out of these questions, which shall we take? Action, why isn’t there love in my heart, what is the meaning of registration, the significance of registration, and is thought everlastingly mechanical, and is there something... thought still non-mechanical. So which of these questions? If we take them all together, which is the central question in all these? 克：那么，这些问题我们讨论哪个呢？ 行动，为什么我的心里没有爱？ 记录的含义， 记录的意义是什么？思想永远是 机械的吗？有没有什么非机械的思想？ 谈哪个问题？ 所有这些问题放在一起，哪个最重要？
20:19 Q: The question of love, sir, it would answer the others, I think. 问：爱的问题，先生，我想爱会回答其它的问题。
20:26 K: Could we go into this question why is it that we human beings have no sense of love? Perhaps if we could go into that very deeply – again, together – please, not I talk and you listen, but together, then perhaps in the investigation of that we will be able to find out what is thinking, what place has thinking, whether it is mechanical or non-mechanical, and why the mind is always registering incidents, accidents, hurts, all the experiences of man, stored up, and what is action that will be so complete, it won’t leave a mark of misery, confusion. Could we take this one question, which is, what is love, why don’t we love? Would that be all right?

Q: Yes. 		克：我们讨论这个问题好吗， 为什么我们人类没有爱的感觉？ 或许要是我们非常深入地进行探讨——还是一起探讨， —注意，不是我讲你听，而是共同探讨 ——那么在探讨的过程中，也许我们就能弄清楚 什么是思考，思考具有什么地位，它是机械的 还是非机械的，为什么头脑总在记录各种事件、 事故、伤害以及人类积累的所有经验，什么样的 行动是完整的，不会留下 痛苦和困惑的疤痕。 我们讨论这个问题， 就是，什么是爱，为什么我们没有爱？ 这样好吗？

问：好。
21:54 K: No, don’t, please, I don’t mind. Do you want to discuss that?

Q: Yes. 		克：不，注意，我无所谓。 你们想讨论这个问题吗？

问：是的。
22:01 K: Yes? I wonder how we approach this question. 克：是吗？我们怎样处理这个问题呢？
22:16 What is your approach to it? You understand my question? How do you come to find out what is the meaning of love, why you, as a human being, have not this perfume, this quality that perhaps may answer all the other questions in life? Now what is your approach to it? How do you come to investigate that problem? Or it may not be possible to investigate that, but one can find out what may hinder it. You understand? What may prevent this extraordinary thing that man seems to be longing for and doesn’t seem to get it, have it. Could we do that? So what is your approach to it? You understand my question? Because how you approach a problem is really important. Not the problem itself so much, but how you come to it, how you look at it, what is your intention, and all that. So please, find out, if I may request, what is your approach, how you receive that question, whether your mind is romantic, sentimental, whether it is born out of desire. So you have to go into this very carefully if you want to go very deeply into this question, because one may, in going into this, perhaps we will be able to answer the whole nature of thinking. Right? So are we clear how you approach it, each one of us? Or you have certain conclusions already about it. Certain opinions and your experiences, will they block you, will they prevent you from going into it very, very, very deeply? Right? So please, we are talking together, not to each one, together. You understand? The speaker is talking to you personally – you. So what is your approach? Are you aware of your approach and how you approach it? Are you aware of your prejudice, your images about it, your conclusions about it, or what people have said about it? Can you put all that aside and try to find out? 你怎样处理它？你们理解我的问题吗？ 你怎样去弄清楚爱的含义， 为什么你，作为一个人类，没有这种爱的芬芳， 你为什么没有这种或许可以解答生活中其它一切问题的品质？ 那么你如何去处理这个问题？ 你怎样去调查这个问题？ 还是说我们不太可能对它进行调查， 但是你可以弄清楚可能是什么东西在妨碍着它。 大家理解吗？ 这种非凡的事物， 似乎令人类可望而不可即，这个障碍是什么？ 我们讨论这个好吗？ 那么你如何处理这个问题呢？ 你们理解我的问题吗？ 因为你处理问题的方式真的非常重要。 问题本身并不那么重要，重要的是你如何处理它， 你如何看待它，你的意图是什么，等等。 所以，容我提个建议，请弄清楚 你是如何处理这个问题的，你对它是什么反应， 你的心是否是浪漫的、多愁善感的，你的处理方式是否产生于欲望。 所以，要想非常深入地探究这个问题，你就得 非常仔细地调查这一点，因为在调查过程当中， 我们或许能够回答整个思考的本质的问题。 对吧？ 那么，我们每个人都清楚自己是如何处理这个问题的吗？ 还是说，你对此已经有了某些结论了？ 你的某些意见、经验，它们会不会妨碍你、阻挠你， 不让你非常、非常深入地去调查这个问题？ 对吧？ 所以，请注意，我们是在一块儿谈话，不是分别和每个人谈话，而是在一起谈话。 你们理解吗？ 讲话者是在跟你本人谈话——你。 那么，你采取怎样的处理方式呢？ 你意识到你的处理方式了吗？你是如何处理它的？ 对于你的偏见，它在你心目中的形象， 你对它的结论，或者人家对它说了些什么，你都意识到了吗？ 你能把那些都放下，尽力去查明真相吗？
26:35 Q: What is love? 问：什么是爱？

克：什么是爱。
26:45 K: What is love? That we are going to find out, sir, that is what we are doing. 先生，我们准备把那个搞清楚，我们正在做这件事。
26:53 Q: Sir, but what is the meaning of the word? 问：先生，这个词是什么意思？
26:56 K: You know, sir, first, the word, the word – let’s be clear that we both have the same meaning about that word, not that you may have a different meaning from the speaker, or the speaker different from you. You understand? So we must be clear about the word itself. Right? Generally, in a good dictionary, the origin of it is desire. In Sanskrit it is ‘Lumpyati’ – I won’t go into it, it is: he desires. You follow? Love is associated with a desire. Please, I am explaining the dictionary meaning of that word. It is not my concept or your concept, what is the common usage of that word. So if we are clear, that we both recognise that the word is not the thing. You understand? You understand what I am saying? The word is not the thing. The word ‘microphone’ is not the actual microphone. Right? So we must be clear always through our discussions, if I may point out, that the word is not the actual fact. Right? So we are enquiring into what is love. 克：你知道，先生，首先这个词——咱们明确一下，我们对 这个词的理解要一样，你可能与 讲话者的理解不同，或者讲话者与你的理解不同，那样不行。 你们明白吗？ 所以，我们必须明确这个词本身的含义。对吧？ 通常，在一本不错的词典里，它的词根的意思是欲望。 在梵语里它叫做'Lumpyati'——我不想细说这个，它的意思是，他怀有欲望。 你们理解吗？爱和欲望有关。 请注意，我是在解释那个词在词典里的意思。 这不是你的概念或者我的概念，而是它通常的用法。 所以，我们明确，我们都认识到词语不是事物本身。 你们理解吗？你们明白我的意思吗？ 词语不是事物本身。 “麦克风”这个词不是实际的这个麦克风，对吧？ 所以，要是可以的话，在整个讨论当中， 我们必须始终明确词语不是事物本身。 对吧？ 那么，我们来调查什么是爱。
29:01 Q: Sir, we say that a child, a baby loves its mother, because it needs its meals. So in this case we say love is a fact of necessity. 问：你比如说一个小孩， 婴儿爱它的妈妈，是因为它需要食物。 （听不见）所以，在这种情况下，我们说爱是一个需求的问题。
29:25 Q: The baby loves its mother and that love is necessity. 问：婴儿爱它的妈妈，那种爱是必要的。
29:43 K: The mother loves the baby, and the baby loves the mother, and that is a necessity. Right? Is that so? You make a statement, you don’t investigate it. Is that so? The animals love their babies. The lowest form of life, manifestation of life, loves its young. And this is a movement from the animal to the man. And is that love? I am not saying it is not, or it is. Or is it the instinct from the animal carried on through the human – please, follow it step by step – and attachment, the animal brings up its cubs up to a certain age and then forgets about them. Right? They have gone from the nest. With a human, there is tremendous care till they are three, four, five, nursing them, looking after them, cleaning them, cuddling them, holding them; that is if you love that baby, which most people don’t – it becomes a plaything. Or they have not the occasion, not the time. After that they send them off to school, to a boarding school, and so on, so on, gradually push them away. Right? And we are asking, we are asking, I am not saying it is, or it is not, is that love? I know the mothers will say, ‘How can you say such a thing!’ I mean we are questioning, we are enquiring, we are not saying yes or no. Because we are thinking, observing together to find out for ourselves what is this nature, the beauty, quality, the extraordinary thing called love. If a mother and the parents loved their baby, looked after them – you follow? – then there would be no wars. Right? There would be right kind of education. There would be right kind of society. So we are asking, when a mother, when the parents love their baby, is it just for a short period, or right through life? Which means that they must have right education, bring them up, with right behaviour, without violence, without conflict, not train them to kill each other, organised war, which is respectable, accepted. You understand? Would a parent who really loved his children do this? Go on, sir, you are parents, think it out. 克：妈妈爱她的婴儿，婴儿爱他的妈妈， 这是必要的。是吗？ 是这样吗？ 你表达了一个看法，你没有去调查。 是这么回事吗？ 动物爱护幼崽。 最低等的生命，生命的表现形式，即爱护它们的后代。 这也是从动物到人类都存在的一种运动。 它是爱吗？ 我没有说它是或者不是。 还是说，它是动物的本能在人类身上的延续。 ——请一步一步地跟上——还有依恋，动物把 幼崽抚养到一定年龄后就把它们忘掉。 对吧？ 它们离开了巢。 对于人类， 3、4、5岁以前的 孩子会得到无微不至的关怀、照顾，有人洗、 有人抱，如果你爱你的孩子，他就会得到这些照顾， 而大多数人不爱他们的孩子——孩子成了一个玩物。 或者他们是没有机会，没有时间。 那以后，他们将孩子送到学校， 送到寄宿学校之类的地方，逐渐地把他们推走。 对吧？ 我们是在问，我们是在问， 我不是说是或者不是，那是爱吗？ 我知道母亲们会说：“你怎能这么说！” 我们在提出问题，我们在调查，我们不是说是或者不是。 因为我们是在一起思考和观察，为我们自己弄清楚， 这种天性、这种美、这种品质和这种叫做爱的非凡事物是什么？ 如果母亲、父母是爱他们的孩子的， 是要照顾他们的——跟上了吗？——那么就不会有战争。 对吧？ 就会有那种正确的教育。 就会有那种正确的社会。 所以，我们问的是，母亲，父母要是爱他们的孩子的话， 那只是一个短期的爱吗？还是贯穿整个生命的爱？ 那意味着他们必须得到正确的教育，把他们养育成人， 具有正确的行为举止，没有暴力，没有冲突，而不是训练他们 去参加体面的、为社会认可的、有组织的战争，去互相残杀。 你们理解吗？ 真正爱孩子的父母会这样做吗？ 继续，先生们，你们是孩子的父母，把这个问题想明白吧。

问：总会有离别的时候。
34:12 Q: There is a moment where separation comes in. 克：那个时候，会有离别。
34:15 K: At the moment there is separation. The mother, the father separate themselves from their children. Right? And the children go off. They are attached to the children. Is attachment love? You people... Don’t, please – go into it. 父亲、母亲把孩子跟他们分开。对吧？ 孩子们离开父母。 父母依恋着孩子。依恋是爱吗？ 你们这些人…请不要，——去调查一下。
34:52 Q: The parents get something from their children, and the children get something from their parents, so it is not love.

K: Yes sir, I know all that. The baby needs a great deal of affection, care. If the parents don’t give affection, care, love to the child, the child withers. It is a well known fact. But generally the parents have their own problems, their own anxieties, fears, sorrows and business, worries – you know, all that. And they give the child a little of what they can when they have time. You understand all this? This is happening in the world. And so is all that love? 		问：父母要从孩子那里得到些什么，孩子 也要从父母那里得到些什么，所以那不是爱。

克：是的先生，这些我都知道。 孩子需要得到无微不至的关爱和照顾， 要是父母对孩子没有关爱、 没有照顾、没有爱的话，孩子就会枯萎、凋零。 这是众所周知的事实。 可是，通常父母们有他们自己的问题，他们自己的焦虑、 恐惧、悲伤、生意上的烦心事。——那一切你们都知道。 他们有时间的时候，就给孩子一点儿他们所能给予的东西。 这一切你们都理解吗？现在的世界就是这个样子。 那么那一切是爱吗？
35:42 Q: No.

K: Don’t say no, madame. Will you do something about it, test it? 		问：不是。

克：不要说不是，夫人。 你愿意就此做些什么，去检验一下吗？

问：我们应该从稍微否定点儿的角度来处理这个问题，
35:59 Q: I think we should approach it a little bit negatively, like what is not love. 比如爱不是什么。

克：我们正在谈那件事，先生。
36:05 K: We are doing that, sir. We have just done it! 我们刚说过！

问：是吗？
36:07 Q: Yes? Well, to look at this whole thing as one of the ways of approaching it. Time, space, and the whole human and animal race. 嗯，处理这个问题的方式之一就是观察事物整体。 时间、空间，以及整个人类还有动物物种…
36:18 K: Yes, sir, we’ll come to it, sir, slowly, slowly. 克：是的先生，我们就要谈到这个，慢慢来，慢慢来。
36:23 Q: I think the parents even defend themselves against the child. 问：我觉得父母甚至还在抵抗孩子的攻击。
36:28 K: Of course, that always happens. You follow? The parents are against the child, and the child becomes – you know, what is happening in the world. For god’s sake, look at it. So from that arises the question: is attachment love? 克：当然，这种事情总在发生。你们理解吗？ 父母对孩子采取敌视态度，孩子变得… 你们知道现在世界是什么样子。 天哪，看看吧。 所以，从那里就引出一个问题：依恋是爱吗？
36:55 Q: Many parents think that it is. 问：很多人是这么认为的。
36:59 K: I know, many people think that without jealousy there is no love. If you don’t struggle, fight, if there is no conflict, if there is no jealousy, a sense of each one asserting, people imagine that there is no love, or that there is love – this state is love. Right? So I am asking from that: is attachment love? We are thinking over together, you and I. So are you attached to your children? 克：我知道，很多人觉得没有嫉妒就没有爱。 如果你不去努力，不去斗争，如果没有冲突， 没有嫉妒，没有一种每个人维护着自己的感觉，人们就认为 没有爱，或者说，那个样子才是爱——这种状态是爱。是吗？ 所以，我问的是：依恋是爱吗？ 我们是在一起，你和我共同思考。 那么你依恋你的孩子们吗？

问：有没有一种关心和关爱，使得你是在一个交流的层面上
38:14 Q: Is there a care and affection that makes you attractive to somebody else at a communion level as opposed to an attachment that you are dominating, and your ideas have to be the ideas of the other person. Can you be attached and understand that attachment? 吸引着其他的人，而不是那种你居于 统治地位，你的观念必须强加给其他人的依恋呢？ 你能否依恋同时又理解那种依恋？
38:34 K: When you dominate your children, or your wife, or your husband, or your girl, or boy, when you possess them, hold them that they are mine – is that love? 克：你要是主宰着你的孩子，或者你的妻子、丈夫， 或者你的女友、男友，你要是占有他们，认为 他们是属于我的——那是爱吗？

问：不是。
38:53 Q: No. 克：先生，当我们问“那是爱吗”的时候，当你说：
38:54 K: Sir, when we ask that question, is that love, when you say, ‘No, it is not’, do you mean it is not in you – you understand? You are free of it, not just verbally say, ‘Yes, I am not’. So that is why I asked at the beginning, if I may point out, unless we do this actively, see, aware that it is so in us, and being aware, look at it, go into it, search out why human beings hold on to this attachment. Why you are attached as husband, wife, furniture, book, belief, it doesn’t matter – attachment. And if you are attached to one thing and another is attached to another, there is division. You understand? And is this division love? Please go into it. “那不是爱”的时候，你是说你心里没有爱吗？——你理解吗？ 你心里没有爱，你不是仅仅在口头上说“是的，我没有爱”。 所以，那就是为什么我在开始的时候提出，要是可以指出的话， 除非我们积极主动地看到、意识到我们心里没有爱， 有意识地去审视它，去调查它， 弄明白为什么人类会执着于这种依恋。 为什么你执着于你的丈夫、 妻子、家具、书籍、信仰，执着什么无所谓——执着？ 你执着一样东西，别人执着另一样东西， 这就存在分歧——你理解吗？ 这种分歧是爱吗？请仔细探究一下。

问：我希望你不介意我的…

克：接着说，夫人，接着说。
40:08 Q: I hope you don’t mind my... 问：我刚才说，父母们甚至还在抵抗孩子的攻击。为什么会这样？
40:12 K: Allezy, madame, allezy. 克：夫人，要是你读报，看杂志，就会知道，
40:23 Q: I said they even defend themselves against their own children. Why so? 社会工作者还有所有从事这方面工作的人，
40:39 K: Madame, if you read the newspapers and magazines, and social workers and all those, they are saying: after a great deal of attention, after a great deal of study, that unless parents really love their children, you know, really love them, have time with them, spend their energy with them, the children either generally die, the babies, or mentally, psychologically they are warped. And this lady was pointing out that some parents are opposed to their children. There are, they beat them, they force them, they do all kinds of things to them. That is all she was pointing out. 在长期关注和大量研究之后，都认为， 除非家长真的爱他们的子女，你明白， 真的爱他们，腾出时间陪他们，在他们身上付出精力， 否则，要么孩子们通常就会死掉，如果是婴儿的话， 要么他们就会在精神上、心理上变得乖戾。 这位女士指出的是， 有些家长对他们的孩子抱有敌意。 的确如此，他们打孩子， 逼迫孩子，让孩子受到各种虐待。 这就是她所指出的事实。
41:32 Q: Sir, from what you are saying, I think we might get the idea that we should love. I think most of us have the idea very strongly that we should love. And most of us are very afraid that we don’t love. Perhaps that is the barrier.

K: Yes, sir. The speaker is not saying that you should love. That would be silly because it has no meaning. And because we have a feeling that we should love, we feel guilty. And being guilty, we force ourselves. Right? So, please. I hear you telling me, love is not attachment. I hear you. And because I really am in earnest, serious, I want to find out. I really want to find out. So I give attention to what you are saying. And when you say, ‘Is attachment love?’, I say, ‘Am I attached to my daughter, to my wife?’ I investigate in myself. You understand? I say, am I? And if I am not attached, will I become irresponsible? You understand? I have so far said, as long as I am attached to this person, I am responsible, I have to look after, I have to care, I have to earn money, you know, together, because I am attached to her, she is mine, I must protect her. And you are telling me, asking me: is that love? And I begin to enquire, and I say, if I am detached, will I neglect my responsibility. You understand? Will I be indifferent, will I get bored and chase another person? You follow? So I am looking at both, whether attachment is love, in attachment there is fear – I know, I feel it. In attachment I must possess, I can’t let her go, or him, because in attachment I find security. And you come and tell me, or ask me, because I am listening to you, I care for what you say, you have gone into it, you have searched out, you may be wrong, you may be right, but I want to find out. So I examine, and I say, what happens if I am not attached. I get frightened – aren’t you? I get frightened, and that very fear makes me more attached. So I have to face the fear and see if I can go into it, and see what is implied in it, then I can say, ‘Well, all right, I see the danger of attachment, but what then?’ You follow? I am not attached. Do I live in a vacuum when all people around me are attached? Am I antisocial? You understand? Go into it with me as I am doing it. 		问：听了您讲的这些， 我觉得我们可能明白了，我们应该有爱。 我想，我们大多数人都有这种强烈的信念：我们应该有爱。 我们大多数人担心的是我们没有爱。 那可能就是一个障碍吧。

克：是的，先生。 讲话者不是说你应该爱。 那种做法是愚蠢的，毫无意义。 我们有一种感觉，就是我们应该有爱，于是我们会感到内疚。 又因为感到内疚，我们便强迫自己去爱。 对吧？所以，请注意。 我听到了你对我说的，爱不是依恋。 我听到了。 因为我确实非常热切、非常严肃，想要搞清楚。 我真的想弄明白。 所以，我用心听你说话。 当你说，依恋是否是爱的时候， 我问自己，我依恋我的女儿、我的妻子吗？ 我调查我自己。 大家理解吗？ 我说，我是那样的吗？ 我要是不依恋的话，我会不负责任吗？ 你们理解吗？ 至此，我说过， 只要我依恋某个人，我就会负责任， 我得照顾她，把她放在心上，去挣钱，你知道， 这都是因为我依恋她，她属于我，我必须保护她。 而你告诉我，你问我，那是爱吗？ 我开始调查，我说， 要是我超然处之，我是否会抛弃我的责任。 你们理解吗？ 我会变得漠不关心吗？我会感到厌倦，去追求另一个人吗？ 跟上了吗？ 所以，我审视着这两点，依恋是否是爱， 依恋当中有恐惧——我了解，我感觉到它了。 在依恋的时候，我必须占有， 不能让她或他离开我，我通过依恋找到了安全。 你走过来，告诉我，或者问我，因为我在听你说话， 我在乎你的话，因为你调查过、思索过这个问题， 你可能对，也可能不对，不过，我想搞清楚真相。 于是我去调查，我问，如果我不依恋的话，会怎样？ 我给吓到了。——你们没有被吓到吗？ 我被吓到了，而正是这个恐惧令我更加依恋了。 我不得不面对这个恐惧，看看我是否能够检视它，看看 其中隐含着什么，这样我就可以说道： “那好吧，我看到了依恋的危险，但接着会怎样呢？” 你们跟上了吗？我不依恋了。 因为周围的人都有所依恋， 所以，我就是在虚空里生活的吗？ 我是反社会的人吗？你明白吗？ 我在调查，你们跟我一起调查。 于是，在听你讲的时候，我想要弄明白爱是什么。
46:06 So my enquiry in listening to you is: I want to find out what love is. To me that is very important to find out, because that may solve all my problems if I know how to love. Right? It may. Everything has failed: I have tried gurus, I have tried everything, but nothing has come, nothing has resolved, nothing has created something new in my life. So I am listening to you very earnestly, carefully, with affection. So I see, I understand that love is not attachment. Understand in the sense I have seen it, not verbally, in action. I say, ‘All right, my girl, I am not attached to you’ – or boy. I am watching it – you understand? I see the danger, and therefore I am holding it. You understand? Keeping a watchful eye. Are you doing all this? 对我而言，弄明白这一点非常重要， 如果我懂得了如何去爱，那或许会解决我所有的问题。 对吧？或许会的。 以前的尝试全都失败了： 我追随过那些古鲁，我什么都试过了，却一无所获， 什么都没解决，也没有给我的生活创造出任何新的东西。 所以，我是带着感情，非常热切、认真地听你讲话的。 于是我明白，我理解，爱不是执着。 理解是指我看到了这一点，不是口头上，而是在行动上。 我说道：“好吧，我的姑娘，我不依恋你了”。 ——或者小伙子。 我在观察这个东西。——你们理解吗？ 我看到了危险，于是我把它捧在手里。 你们理解吗？ 警惕地观察着。你们也在观察着这一切，是吗？
47:24 Q: I think the true way to approach a problem is to examine what is not love. 问：我认为，真正的处理问题的方式是去调查什么不是爱。
47:33 K: I am doing that, sir, please. You are finding out what is not love. Attachment is not love. I have just discovered that. It is a tremendous discovery for me. Because I have so far accepted attachment as love, and you come and say, ‘Find out, look at it’. I look and I find: yes, you are perfectly right, because in attachment there is fear, and fear cannot go with love. So I have discovered this. I haven’t been told by you, it is part of my blood now. Right? Are you doing this with me? Or you are just verbally playing around. 克：我正在调查那个，先生，请耐心些。 你正在弄明白什么不是爱。 依恋不是爱。我刚刚发现这一点。 对我来说，这是一个惊人的发现。 一直以来，我都把依恋当成了爱， 你过来对我说：“去弄清楚吧，去审视一下吧”。 我去审视它，结果，我发现你完全正确， 因为在依恋里面，包含着恐惧，而恐惧不能与爱并肩同行。 于是我发现了这一点。 我不是你给讲明白的，它现在是我的血液的一部分了。对吧？ 你们是在和我一起调查的吗， 还是说你们只是口头说说而已？
48:38 Q: Sir, I find it a very sad thing. You are going over a very serious problem with these people. Have you ever really considered that there is a very simple statement that tells you all about love, and that is found in the Bible. And the simple statement is, that God is love. 问：先生，这实在令人感到可悲。 你和大家讨论的是一个非常严肃的问题。 你可曾真的思考过一句非常简单的 圣经里面的话，它告诉你关于爱的一切。 这句话很简单：上帝是爱。
49:12 K: Madame, please. 克：夫人，拜托。
49:13 Q: And there is no love to be found in man himself. God loves man. And man can look outwards to God, not inwards and find love. 问：在人自己身上是找不到爱的。上帝爱人。 人可能向外，到上帝那里去找，而不是向内去寻找爱。
49:36 K: Madame, ecoutez. If you make your question very short, then it will be possible to answer it. But if you make a long speech, it is impossible to understand, even verbally. 克：夫人，听着。 您要是很简短地提问，我可能还可以回答。 但如果是长篇大论，那我甚至在字面上都理解不了你的意思了。
49:57 So we are, through the negation of what is not love, finding it out. You understand? Negation: attachment is not. But with attachment I have felt responsible, but also if I am not attached, will I be irresponsible? You understand? So I have to find out in action, not just verbally. I say, I see I am attached, I see the dangers of attachment, fear, and I understand the nature of fear, and I say, all right. Now, am I responsible, being free from attachment? Is then, I am asking, is responsibility necessary to love? You understand? Through negation of attachment, of denying attachment, and I have found responsibility, and is responsibility part of this strange thing called love? You understand? Being responsible, not only to my wife, to my children, having the feeling of responsibility. You understand what I am talking about? 通过否定那些不是爱的东西，我们把这个问题弄清楚了。 你们理解吗？否定，依恋不是爱。 可是，带着依恋，我会有责任感， 但是，如果我不依恋了，我会变得不负责任吗？ 你们理解吗？ 我得在行动上，而不是在口头上去弄清楚。 我说，我看到我的依恋，我看到了依恋的危险， 恐惧，我明白了恐惧的本质，我说，好吧。 那么，摆脱了依恋的我怀有责任心吗？ 然后，我问的是，责任对于爱是必要的吗？ 你们理解吗？ 否定依恋，通过这一否定， 我发现了责任， 而责任是那个被叫作爱的陌生事物的一部分吗？ 你们理解吗？ 负责， 不只是对我的妻子、我的孩子们负责，还要具有一种责任感。 你们理解我的意思吗？
51:41 Q: Is responsibility the same as an obligation? 问：责任和义务是一回事吗？
51:48 K: Responsibility is not obligation. Obligation is gone. If I am obliged to you, I can’t love you. I am obliged to you because you give me money, you give me sex, you give me comfort – you know? – then where is this thing? It is a merchandise. Right? 克：责任不是义务。义务什么也不是。 要是我感激你，我就无法爱你了。 我感激你，因为你给了我钱，给了我性， 给了我舒适——你明白——那么哪里还有爱呢？ 它成了一种交易。对吧？所以…
52:17 Q: Sir, I think there is another danger. It is, we begin to cultivate indifference, you know, to become casual? If you see the attachment, you can begin to cultivate indifference. And that is another trap.

K: Oh, yes, sir. That’s is why I am examining all the traps. So I have realised love implies responsibility. Go a little further. 		问：我认为存在另一种危险。 我们会不会变得漠不关心，您明白，变得漫不关心？ 你看到了依恋，你开始变得漠不关心。 那又是一个陷阱。

克：哦，对，先生。 所以我在调查所有的陷阱。 我认识到爱意味着责任。 再稍微深入一点讨论。
53:02 Q: Which is to be able to respond. 问：就是能够做出反应。

克：责任（responsibility），如你所说，
53:07 K: Responsibility, means, as you say, the word ‘responsible’ comes from ‘to respond’. Now in that responsibility, is the response sensuous, sensory – you understand? Does that responsibility contain desire – you are following all this? Please, I am talking. I am not talking to myself. We are doing it together, you and I. You and I may be all of you. So I am asking, in that responsibility, is that responsibility limited to my girl, wife, husband, or the feeling of responsibility – you understand? 这个词来自于反应（respond）。 在那个责任里面， 存在的是感觉的反应，愉悦感官的反应——你们理解吗？ 这个责任当中包含有欲望吗？ 所有这些你们都跟上了吗？ 请注意，我在讲。但我不是在自言自语。 我们，你们和我是在一块儿思考。 你和我，可能你们所有人。（笑） 我问的是，在那个责任当中，那个责任仅限于 我的女友，妻子，还是一种负责任的感觉——你们明白吗？

问：责任感是从一个中心产生的。
54:18 Q: There is a centre from which this responsibility comes into being. 克：我来调查一下，先生。我依恋别人。
54:27 K: I examined it, sir. I am attached. In that attachment, I have felt responsible. I go out, earn a livelihood, earn money, come back, and I feel responsible for the woman, or the man. And in that responsibility, there is attachment, fear. And you point out to me, fear and love can’t go together. You see it, you are so clear. And I say, quite right. So I am saying, is responsibility just to those few, or responsible for all human beings – you understand? Is love – follow this! – is love this total feeling of responsibility? 带着这个依恋，我感到肩负责任。 我外出谋生，赚钱， 我回到家，觉得对这个女人或男人我是负责的。 那个责任感里面存在着依恋、恐惧， 你向我指出，恐惧和爱无法携手同行。 你看到了这一点。你非常清楚。我说，非常正确。 我说的是，责任感仅仅是给那几个人的， 还是要对全人类都负起责任来——你们理解吗？ 爱——现在注意——爱是这种完全的责任感吗？

问：我看到，如果你依赖某人…
55:39 Q: I see that if you are attached to somebody... 克：先生，除非你亲自从头到尾思考过这个问题，把它想明白吧，检验一下吧。
55:44 K: Sir, unless you go through this in yourself, work it out, test it. 问：我每天都在检验，有时我觉得我检验的次数太多了些。
55:54 Q: I test it every day, and I think I test it too much sometimes. I think that attachment, as long as I experience attachment, I am not able to be responsible to the rest of the human beings in the world. 我觉得，依恋，只要我感受到依恋， 我就 无法对这个世界上的其他人负责。
56:11 K: Yes, sir. So I have gone much further in my investigation with myself. I hope you are doing the same thing. Which is, do I feel responsible not only for the few with whom I am associated, or is there the feeling of total responsibility for the earth, for the trees, for the mountains, for the water, for other human beings. You follow? Total feeling. And is that love? Don’t say, yes, or no, unless you do it. 克：对，先生。在对我自己的调查中，我已经做了更深入的调查。 希望你也一样。 就是说， 我是否感到不仅要对和我有关的少数几个人负责， 或者说，是否存在那种对于地球， 树木，山峦，水和其他人类的完全的责任感。 你们跟上了吗？完整的感觉。 那是不是爱？在你调查之前，不要说是或不是。
56:58 And also I find in my investigation that I like to possess. I like to belong to somebody. Don’t you know all this? Oh, for god’s... So belonging, which is to be identified with something – you understand? – identified with the nation, with the group, with a person, with an idea. So as I have lost every form of identification, I feel I must be identified. Don’t you know this? And in that identification I must possess. I can’t identify myself with the wind! 调查中我还发现我喜欢占有。 我喜欢归属于某个人。这一切你们都了解吗？ 哦，天哪… 归属，就是跟什么东西认同——大家理解吗？ ——认同于国家、群体、一个人、一个理念。 所以，因为我失去了各种形式的认同，我感到我必须得到认同。 这一点你们不明白吗？ 在那个认同当中，我必须占有， 我无法让自己认同于风！

问：我们就是被这样抚养成人的，就是这样教育出来的。
58:08 Q: We are brought up in this way, educated. 克：我知道，先生。你是被这样抚养成人的。
58:10 K: I know, sir, you are brought up this way. I know, I’ve been brought up that way, I am breaking my conditioning.

Q: Yes. 		我知道，我是被这样带大的。我是在打破我的制约。

问：对。
58:20 K: I am breaking down what I have been brought up to. 克：我在打破我成长过程中所受到的束缚。
58:24 Q: Sometimes your conditioning is when you are able to watch it, the conditioning, you can listen. The conditioning is sometimes very strong. So you are able to watch it, you are able to be aware of it, but the conditioning is very, very strong. 问：有时候，如果你能够观察你的制约， 倾听你的制约， 有时侯，束缚是非常强大的。 你可以观察它，你可以觉察它， 但束缚非常非常强大。
58:43 K: Yes. I’m being aware of it. I am aware that I want to possess. And in that possession there is domination. And possession and domination, does that contain love – you understand? So I discover it does not. So I will not possess. You understand? I can’t possess, because my interest, my drive, my intensity is to find out this thing called love. So I have found attachment is not love, possession is not love, nor the instinct, which has been derived from the animal till now, to the human. The mother, and the parents saying ‘I love my baby’, and then neglect them for the rest of their life. Right? That is not love. So I have found out for myself these things are not love. 克：是的。我意识到我想要占有。 占有的同时，就存在控制。 占有和控制，那里面包含爱吗？你们明白吗？ 我发现那里面没有爱。那我就不去占有。 你们理解吗？ 我不能占有，因为我的兴趣、 我的追求、我的热情就在于弄明白这个被称为爱的事物. 于是，我已经发现，依恋不是爱，占有不是爱， 人类从动物继承来的本能也不是爱， 母亲，父母说： “我爱我的孩子”，然后，却在他们的余生里抛弃了他们。 对吧？那不是爱。 我为我自己弄明白了，这些东西都不是爱。
59:56 Then I want also to enquire – I hope you are doing it together. I am not talking to myself. If I am, stop it. 我还想调查——我希望大家一起来调查。 我不是在自言自语。如果是的话，就打断我。
1:00:13 Q: What about attachment to the idea of independence which is the other side of the coin? Aren’t we often attached also to the idea that we should be independent, not attached. This creates a problem also.

K: Yes, sir. That means attached to the image you have about dependence. Come on, sir, this is all simple, isn’t it? So is jealousy love? You understand? Or you say, ‘No, it is not! But I am jealous!’ So my saying, it is not, has no meaning. So I have to say, ‘Why, why am I jealous?’ Go into it, look at it. Why am I jealous? 		问：如何看待对于独立这个观念的执着？ 这是硬币的另一面。 我们不是常常执着于我们应该独立的 这个观念吗？这也造成了一个问题。

克：是的先生。那意味着执着于你心里关于独立的形象。 加把劲儿，先生，这很简单，不是吗？ 妒忌是爱吗？你们理解吗？ 或者你会说：“它不是爱，可是我有妒忌心”。 所以我说的是，说它不是爱毫无意义。 我得说：“为什么，我为什么有妒忌心？” 对此去调查一下，检查一下吧。我为什么妒忌？
1:01:09 Q: Because I am frightened. 问：因为我给吓到了。
1:01:14 K: Because I possess. Why do I possess her or him, why do I hold on? Is it that I am lonely? You understand? Desperately, deeply lonely, separate? 克：因为我占有。 我为什么占有她，或者他，我为什么紧抓不放？ 是不是因为我孤独。你们理解吗？ 这种孤独、隔阂令人绝望，是吗？

问：我想爱是对生活的强烈感知。
1:01:39 Q: I think love is a sort of intense perception of life. For example, now this moment, together, the sun outside, the planes in the sky, the water on the roads, the roof... the whole of life is like that – love. I think so. 比如，在此刻大家在一起，外面的阳光， 天上的飞机，路面上的水，屋顶… 整个生命，那就是爱——我这么认为。
1:02:00 K: You have described what love is – right? 克：你对爱是什么做了描述——是吧？
1:02:06 Q: An intense perception of life. Like, for example, I think love is an intense perception of life. 问：对生活的强烈感知。比如… 我觉得爱是对生活的强烈感知
1:02:30 K: But I haven’t got that intense perception of life. 克：可是，我并没有强烈地感知到生活。
1:02:34 Q: Like, for example, this moment, now. 问：就像是，比如此时此刻，现在…
1:02:36 K: Yes, madame, I understand that, but I haven’t got it. You people just imagine this, make a statement and let it go at that. I don’t know what you mean by ‘intense perception of life’. I am caught in this thing. You are giving some description what life should be. I am not going to be caught in that trap of descriptions. 克：是的，夫人，我理解，但我还没有感知到。 你们这些人就是想象一下，发表个看法，然后那样就算了。 我不明白你说的“对生活的强烈感知”是什么意思。 我陷在这个问题当中。 你是在描述生活应该是什么样子。 我不想陷在那个描述的陷阱里面。 那么嫉妒是爱吗？
1:03:13 So is jealousy love? And I am jealous, so I become aware of it. You understand? I go into it, I don’t just say, ‘Well, what am I to do, tell me’. I see jealousy is not love, and I am jealous, so I go into it, I work it out, think it out. Which means I am attached to her, or him. So I have not escaped from attachment, I have not really resolved it. So I must go into again, look at it carefully, because my intention, my whole search is to find out this perfume. So I have put that aside. 我嫉妒，于是我意识到它了。 你们理解吗？ 我去调查，我不是仅仅说一句：“告诉我该怎么做，告诉我吧” 我看到嫉妒不是爱，而我是嫉妒的， 所以，我对它进行调查，把它弄明白，想清楚。 即我依恋她或他。 所以，我还没有摆脱依恋，我还没有真正解决它。 我必须再次去调查，仔细审视它，因为我的目的、 我所有的思索就是要找到这种品质的芬芳。 所以我把那个放在了一旁。
1:04:08 Then I see that I have my ambitions, my beliefs, my dogmatism, me first and her second. Right? And she first and me second. And I say, is that love? Which means when there is separation between that and this, is that love? Sir, don’t say, no. Go into it, look at it. Because if you don’t, you will say at the end of 20 years, ‘I have done nothing’. At the end of ten years you will say, ‘You have talked enough, get away from here. Stop talking’. Because you don’t apply. 然后我看到，我有我的野心、 我的信仰、我的教条，先我后她。 对吧？ 或者，先她后我。 我说，那是爱吗？ 就是说，如果彼此之间存在分裂，那是爱吗？ 先生，不要说，不是。调查一下，审视一下。 你要是不去审视， 你就会在听了二十年后说：“我什么也没做”。 你会在听了十年之后说： “你讲够了，离开这儿吧。别讲了。” 因为你没有用心。
1:05:13 Q: This is the only difficulty: we don’t apply. 问：这是唯一的困难：我们不用心。
1:05:16 K: Apply. I am doing it now for you. 克：用心。我正在帮你做这件事。
1:05:19 Q: But I have the intention to apply myself, but there is something else that I don’t know that prevents me to deeply see all these things, and not intellectually only. 问：可是我是想用心的，可是我不知是 受到了什么东西的妨碍，无法深刻地 而不是仅仅在智力上看到这一切。
1:05:30 K: Then find out what is impeding you. Go into it. Don’t say, ‘I don’t know’, and then give it up. Find out what is the barrier. Is it laziness, is it acceptance of things as they are, not to be disturbed? Sir, go into it, sir. Test it out. Break down, cry, do something to find out. At the end of it don’t say, ‘I have listened to you for 20 years or 52 years, and I haven’t changed’. It is not my fault, it is your fault. Don’t put the blame on me. 克：那就去弄明白阻碍着你的东西是什么。调查一下。 不要说：“我不知道”，然后就放弃了。 弄清楚你的障碍是什么。 是懒惰吗？是安于现状，不想受到打扰吗？ 先生，把它调查一下，先生。检验一下。 抑制不住地痛哭一场，为了弄明白，做点啥吧。 别到最后说：“我听你讲了二十年了， 或者五十二年了，我却没有改变。” 这不是我的过错，这是你的过错。 不要把责任推到我身上。
1:06:25 Q: Sir...

K: Just a minute, sir. I know, sir. I am answering your question, sir. So I have discovered attachment in any form is not love. Jealousy is not love. Possession is not love, me and her, fulfilling my desires in her, or she in me. So desire – go into it carefully – desire is not love. Right? You don’t accept it, you won’t see this. Desire, sexual desires, desire for comfort, desire for various forms of encouragement, you know – desire. Is desire love? Don’t say, no. Because I am desiring that woman, or that man; I desire to be a big politician, or a guru, or I desire enlightenment. I desire to become better. I desire to overcome this, enter into something else. All this movement of desire, the becoming, the fulfilling, is that love? 		问：先生。

克：稍等，先生。 我知道，先生。我在回答你的问题，先生。 所以我发现了，任何形式的执着都不是爱。 嫉妒不是爱。 占有不是爱，我在她身上 满足我的欲望，或者她在我身上满足她的欲望。 所以，欲望——仔细调查它——欲望不是爱。对吧？ 你们不承认这个，你们就是不想看到这一点。 欲望，对性的欲望，对舒适的欲望， 对各种形式的鼓励的欲望，你们明白——欲望。 欲望是爱吗？别说不是。 因为我渴望得到那个女人或者那个男人；我渴望成为 大政治家，或者古鲁，或者我渴望开悟。 我渴望变得更好。 我渴望超越这个状态，进到别的什么状态。 所有这种渴望的运动，成为什么，实现什么，那是爱吗？
1:08:20 Q: So what shall we do with it?

K: I am telling you, sir. Look at it, investigate desire. Desire. Why is the mind, which is the result of the senses – you follow? You understand this? – the senses, so the response of the senses with its desires, is that love? 		问：那么，对此我们该怎么办？

克：我就要告诉你，先生。 观察一下，对欲望调查一下。欲望。 为什么心，这个感官的产物——你们理解吗？ 你们明白这个吗？——各种感官， 那么带着欲望的各种感官的反应，那是爱吗？
1:09:00 You follow? Please follow all this. I am investigating all this, so that towards the end I begin to see that everything that thought has created or desired around this word is not love. Right? And in the perception of that intelligence is taking place. Right? Right, sir? 你们明白吗？这些都请跟上。 我是在调查这一切， 所以，在最后，我开始明白，思想所制造的、所渴望的 每样东西，围绕着欲望这个词的东西，都不是爱。 对吧？ 在这个觉察当中，智慧就出现了。 对吧？是不是，先生？
1:09:33 Q: Is love the same as understanding? 问：爱与理解是一回事吗？

克：不是，先生。
1:09:37 K: No, sir. Love is not the same as understanding. Love is something totally different. You see, I am describing it and you... I can use a Greek word ‘agape’, or French word or Sanskrit word, but it won’t convey the thing. The description in Sanskrit I can tell you – it won’t. Or in Italian, or French, it is not that. So please, sir, do it. 爱与理解不是一回事。 爱是完全不同的。 你看，我是在描述它。 我可以用希腊语，agape，或者用法语， 或者梵语来描述它，可是那传达不了爱本身。 我可以告诉你它在梵语里的解释——那也不行。 或者用意大利语，法语来解释，那都不是爱。 所以，拜托，先生，去实践一下吧。
1:10:17 Q: Sir, you talk about love. 问：先生，你刚才谈论的是爱。

克：我没有谈论爱。
1:10:22 K: I don’t talk about love. I am talking about the barriers, the things that prevent this thing taking place. 我谈论的是障碍， 那些妨碍这件事情发生的东西。

问：嗯，我是在妨碍它。

克：你告诉过我先生。
1:10:40 Q: Well, I am blocking it.

K: You told me that, sir. 		问：我该怎么办？我是说，我想有爱。
1:10:44 Q: What shall I do? I mean, I want to love. 克：问题就在这儿。我想有爱。
1:10:49 K: You can’t... that’s what ‘I want to love’. The very desire to want to love is the denial of love. 这个要去爱的欲望正是对爱的否定。
1:10:58 Q: So how shall I get rid of that desire? 问：我该怎样摆脱那个欲望呢？
1:11:00 K: I am not saying you should get rid of anything. I am just pointing out how to investigate desire, to look at it. All right, I will show it to you, sir. I have desire. I desire that woman, or that man, I desire to become something, I desire to be very healthy, I desire a better life, more money – I desire. And what is this constant urge – right? – for nirvana, for enlightenment, for better life, what is this desire? Please, I am not talking to myself. I can do this anywhere. 克：我没有说你应该摆脱什么。 我只是指出，如何去调查欲望，如何去审视它。 好吧，我给你讲一讲，先生。 我有欲望。 我渴望得到那个女人，或者那个男人，我渴望成为什么，我渴望 非常健康，我渴望生活更好，更有钱——我渴望。 这种不断的冲动是什么——对吧？ ——渴望涅槃，渴望开悟，生活更好，这种欲望是什么？ 注意，我不是在自言自语。这种事我在哪儿都可以做。
1:12:00 Q: Sir, in order for the desire to accomplish and transform into the passion to investigate, something has to take place. 问：先生，要想让欲望得到实现并转化为 调查的热情，有些东西是不可或缺的。
1:12:12 K: Yes, sir, desire for something. Desire cannot be transmuted into something else, it has to be understood. It has to be exposed to the light of investigation. 克：是的，先生，对什么东西的欲望。 欲望无法转化为别的什么东西，它只能被理解。 必须把它暴露出来，接受调查。
1:12:35 Q: How do you expose it? 问：你如何暴露它呢？
1:12:36 K: I am doing it, sir, I am doing it. I went into this carefully the other day, what is the movement of desire. The response of the senses. Right? The response, I see something: a blue shirt, I want that blue shirt. The response of... seeing, the response, contact, sensation, then thought comes in and says, ‘I would like to have that shirt’. So thought, when it takes over, the response of the senses creates desire. Watch it. Test it out. 克：我正在暴露它。我正在这么做。 前几天，我仔细调查过欲望的运动。 对于感官的反应。对吧？ 反应，我看到了什么东西，一件蓝色的衬衣，我想要这件衬衣。 看见后的反应，反应，触摸，感觉， 然后，思想介入并说道：“我想得到这件衣服”。 于是，思想在接管感官的反应之后，制造了欲望。 把它观察一下，检验一下。
1:13:42 Q: I want the attention that you have, sir. I see that desire. 问：我也想具有您那种注意力，先生。 我看到了那个欲望。

克：所以，摆在我面前的就是：我明白爱不是欲望。
1:13:49 K: So I am left with this, sir: I see love is not desire. It is a great thing to find out for oneself, and if love is not desire, then what is love? You understand? Love is not mere attachment to the baby, love is not attachment to any form, love is not jealousy, love is not me and my ambition, my fulfilment, my becoming, and you also becoming, this constant division, that is not love, nor desire, nor pleasure. Right? The fulfilment of desire, which is pleasure, that is not love. So I have found out what love is. It is none of these things. And have I understood these elements, and am free of them? Or just say, ‘Well, I understand intellectually, I understand verbally, but help me to go deeper’, I can’t. You have to do it yourself. 这是一个需要替自己弄明白的重大问题， 如果爱不是欲望，那么什么是爱呢？ 你们理解吗？ 爱不是只是对孩子的依恋， 爱不是任何形式的执着，爱不是妒忌， 爱不是我和我的野心，我的满足，我成为什么， 然后你也成为什么，这种不断的分裂， 那不是爱，欲望也不是爱，快乐也不是爱。 对吧？ 对于欲望的满足，也就是快乐，那不是爱。 所以，我弄明白爱是什么了。 这些东西都不是爱。 我是在理解这些基本的东西后就摆脱了它们呢？ 还是就是说：“我在理智上明白了， 我在字面上理解了，不过帮我理解得更深一些吧”，我做不到。 你必须亲自把它弄清楚。

问：那你是如何做到的，先生。
1:15:21 Q: How to do it, sir?

K: I am doing it, sir. Sit down, sir, please.

Q: I am prepared to stand. 		克：我现在正在调查，先生。请坐，先生。
1:15:28 K: All right, sir. Sit on there, sir. 问：我准备站着。

克：好的，先生。
1:15:29 Q:Thank you. 坐在那上面吧，先生。

问：谢谢你。

克：所以，在这种调查过程中，
1:15:37 K: So in this investigation, in examining all these things quite impersonally, objectively as they are, I have got that quality of intelligence now. You understand? It is born out of this investigation, it is born out of this seeing the truth of each thing. Right? And therefore out of that there is intelligence. 我实事求是地、不带个人感情地 审视这一切，现在我获得了这种品质的智慧。 你们理解吗？ 它是在这个调查过程中产生的， 是在看到每件事情的真相时产生的。 对吧？ 智慧就从那里产生。
1:16:02 So I am asking: is this intelligence necessary for love? I am using the word ‘intelligence’, not intellect, the cunning, twisting subtleties of the intellect, the verbal play, but totally different. The seeing and the doing; the seeing attachment is dangerous, and the doing of it, which is the ending of it, that is intelligence. So there is intelligence and therefore it is love, that quality of love, which is compassion. Not compassion as an idea. A thing that is in one’s heart, burning, alive. And compassion, love and intelligence go together. Without intelligence you can’t have compassion, this intelligence of which I am talking. 所以，我问的是，这种智慧对于爱是否必要？ 我使用的是智慧这个词，不是智力，不是狡猾的 伎俩和文字游戏，而是完全不同的东西。 看到、行动：看到执着的危险 和对它展开行动，即结束执着，那才是智慧。 于是，就存在着智慧，而那就是爱， 就是那种爱的品质，即慈悲。 不是观念上的慈悲， 而是你心中燃烧着的、富有活力的东西。 慈悲、爱和智慧是携手同行的。 没有智慧你无法拥有慈悲， 这个我正在谈的智慧。
1:17:17 Now, we have talked for an hour and 27 minutes, have you tested it out? Have you freed yourself from this attachment and therefore total feeling of immense responsibility? Or will you say the day after tomorrow, ‘I’ve listened to you, nothing has happened’? That very statement indicates that you have not investigated yourself, gone into yourself. You expect somebody to do something to you. 现在我们谈了1小时27分钟了，你们检验过了吗？ 你们摆脱了这种执着， 因而有了完全的巨大的责任感，是这样吗？ 还是后天你要说： “你讲的我听过了，可是什么事情也没有发生”？ 这句话正表明 你没有亲自去调查，没有去调查自己。 你期待别人来替你做些什么。
1:18:22 Q: Krishnaji, that may not be quite fair. I have listened to what you are saying and feel now I want to try and test it out. 问：克里希那吉，那也许不太公平。 我听了你的讲话， 现在我感觉必须去验证一下。
1:18:30 K: Test it out. No, do it as we are talking, don’t wait till the day after tomorrow. 克：检验一下。 不，在我们谈话的时候就去检验，不要等到后天。
1:18:39 Q: Sir, as I reject every attachment or desire, I feel tremendously empty in myself, so I can’t see intelligence. 问：先生，在我抛弃每一个执着，或者欲望的时候， 我感到自己完全空了，这样我就看不到智慧了。
1:18:49 K: Sir, emptiness, what does that mean? Lonely, separate, isolated, a sense of being cut off, not having any kind of relationship with another, is it the result of drugs, is it the result of various forms of marijuana, grass, speed, and all the rest of it? And also is it the result of your vows, your meditation, your acceptance of authority? You follow? Made you the sense of absolutely worthless, empty, lonely. So at the end of an hour and a half nearly, have you got this quality of love and compassion? If not, let us tomorrow talk about it, investigate it, go into it much more deeply. But don’t say ever, ‘I have listened for so long and I haven’t got it’. You can listen to that river endlessly, but the waters are not what you listen to. 克：先生，空，那意味着什么？ 孤独、隔离、孤立，一种被隔离、 与别人没有任何联系的感觉， 这是服用毒品造成的吗？ 这是吸食各种 大麻、叶子、冰毒等等毒品的结果吗？ 它是你发誓、 冥想、接受权威的结果吗？ 你们理解吗——让你感觉毫无意义、空虚和孤独。 那么在差不多一个半小时之后， 你拥有这种品质的爱和慈悲了吗？ 如果没有，我们明天对此进行讨论和 调查，更加深入地去调查。 但是不要总说：“我听你讲了这么久了，我还是没有明白”。 你可以坐在河边没完没了地一直听下去， 但河水并不是你们要去听的东西。