克里希那穆提 - 冥想是给思想以正确的位置

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SA79D3 - 冥想是给思想以正确的位置
第三次公开讨论，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月27日

0:55	Krishnamurti: We are having a dialogue as a conversation between two people, friendly, serious and wanting to solve their own intimate personal problems. And so they go for a walk in the woods and talk over things together. And we are in that position, you and I, the speaker and you, we are out for a walk, lovely stream, marvellous pine woods full of morning scent, and we are talking over together. And each one of us know that words have a particular definite meaning, that each one of us understands the meaning of the words they use. They know the words and the content of the word, the meaning of the word, the significance of the word, so they use the word which is common to both of them. And they also know that the word is not the thing and the words do not actually convey the deep inner feelings. They are feeling it out together because they are good friends. They are not opposed to each other, they are not trying to trick each other, they have known each other for long years, and they have often talked about these things and so they are willing to expose themselves to each other; point out their difficulties, their problems, and each one is trying to understand the other, and hoping to help each other. That is really a dialogue. They have established a good relationship between them. So can we, this morning, have such a dialogue?	克：现在，我们就像两个友好而且态度认真的人，为了解决他们自己的私人问题那样进行交谈。于是，他们到树林里散步，共同讨论。我们处于那种境地，你们和我，讲话者和你们，我们在外面散步，身边是欢快的小溪，美妙的松树林，空气中弥漫着清晨的气息，我们在一块儿讨论着。我们每个人都明白，词语有其特定的含义，我们每个人都理解他们所使用的词语的含义。他们理解这些词语及其包含的内容，以及词语的含义和意义，所以，他们使用他们有着相同理解的词语。他们也明白，词语并非事物本身，词语不能真实地传达深刻的内心感受。因为他们是好朋友，所以他们一起去摸清对方的想法。他们不是彼此对抗，也不是相互欺骗，他们认识很多年了，他们经常就这些问题一起讨论，所以他们愿意把自己暴露给对方；把他们的困难和问题指出来，每个人都尽力去理解另一个人的话，希望能够互相帮助。那是真正的交谈。他们之间建立起了良好的关系。那么，我们今天上午像这样来交谈好吗？我们昨天谈到了注意、关心和爱的本质。
3:51	And we talked about yesterday, the nature of attention, care and love. So what shall we talk over together this morning?	那么我们今天上午一起讨论什么呢？
4:11	Questioner: Could we investigate why it is so difficult for us to actually experience here and now, all the psychological inhibitions that we have that block us from loving?	问：此时此地，我们很难实际地感受到那些妨碍我们去爱的心理上的顾虑，这是为什么？我们调查一下这个好吗？
4:48	K: Could we investigate together our psychological inhibitions, our psychological barriers, now. Talk it over together, the gentleman asks.	克：我们一起调查一下我们现在心理上所存在的顾虑和障碍。一起讨论，这位先生说。问：心怎样才能摆脱社会和
5:09	Q: How can the mind be free of cunning intelligence which society and all the education pushes on us to develop?	所有的教育推动着我们开发出来的那种黠智？
5:42	K: How can the mind be free from the cunning which thought has put together there.	克：心如何摆脱思想所拼凑起来的那种狡黠和诡诈。
5:55	Q: What is the quality of the mind which observes silently? Is it something probably new to us, or is it something that we possess already but we have forgotten? Is that clear?	问：当心在静静地观察的时候具有什么样的品质？对于我们来说，它可能是新的东西，还是说，它是我们早就拥有，但被我们忘掉的东西？那样说清楚吗？
6:15	Q: Could you say what is intelligence?	问：您讲一讲什么是智慧好吗？
6:17	K: Could you discuss what is intelligence.	克：你讨论一下什么是智慧好吗？
6:28	Q: Is there a difference between voluntary isolation, which obviously creates conflict, and the involuntary isolation, such as being blind?	问：志愿的孤独显然会造成冲突，它和那种非志愿的孤独——比如眼睛看不见——之间存在区别吗？
7:05	K: Isolation and forced isolation; isolation through some kind of illness, which is forced, and voluntary, willing isolation. Is that it?	克：孤独，和被迫的、某种疾病造成的孤独也就是被迫的和志愿的、有意的孤独。是那个意思吗？
7:57	Q: Could we discuss the constant and mechanical activity of the brain, of thoughts that are shouting all the time?	问：大脑不停地进行着机械的活动，思想聒噪不休，我们讨论一下这个好吗？
8:06	K: Mechanical? Why does thought always occur, why is there not a freedom at any time from the movement of thought?	克：机械的？为什么总有念头出现，为什么在任何时候都没有摆脱思想运动的自由？
8:34	Q: You tell us that fear is produced by thought, but I myself have experienced that fear manifests itself in thought, and it wants to structure and limit itself, and escape from itself by thinking.	问：你告诉我们恐惧是思想的产物，可是我个人的体会是恐惧在思想里显露出来，它想要通过思想来安排、限制自身和逃离自身。
8:58	K: You say fear is the result of thought, produced by thought.	克：你说恐惧是思想的结果，是思想的产物…
9:11	Q: No, thought is the result of fear.	问：不是，思想是恐惧的结果。
9:13	K: Thought is the result of fear – you follow? He is putting fear first and thought afterwards. Right?	克：思想是恐惧的结果——跟上了吗？他将恐惧放在了首位，思想其次。对吧？
9:21	Q: Yes. K: Right.	问：对。克：好的。
9:25	Q: Could we talk about the process of identification also?	问：我们也谈谈认同的过程好吗？
9:30	K: Could we discuss why the mind seeks identification, why we seek identification.	克：我们讨论一下为什么心在寻求认同，为什么我们寻求认同，好吗？
9:42	Q: I find it extremely difficult to take part in these discussions, because I am always in doubt whether it is a right or a wrong question. How can I find out myself, are there any guidelines?	问：我发现参与这些讨论是极其困难的，因为我总是拿不准它是一个正确的还是错误的问题。我自己该怎么弄清楚呢？有没有指引路线呢？
10:00	K: How can one find out for oneself what is a right question and a wrong question. Is that it, sir? Q: Yes.	克：你怎样去弄清楚什么是正确的问题和错误的问题。是吗，先生？问：是的。
10:13	Q: Sir, I asked why do you call the usual meditation a self-hypnosis? I asked this question because that is only through that that I have the feeling I understand when you say beauty is something entirely different, love is something entirely different.	问：先生，我问过，为什么你管通常那种闭目静坐的冥想叫做自我催眠？我问这个问题是因为我的感觉是，通过那种冥想，我可以理解你说的美是完全不同的事物，爱是完全不同的事物。
10:41	Q: I didn’t hear. K: I didn’t hear either. I’m afraid, we haven’t understood. Why are you saying that sitting down quietly, crossed legs, closed eyes, and going through all that... I somehow feel that I am very close to what you are saying, why are you saying that is not meditation? Why do you say it is self-hypnosis. That’s enough.	问：我没听见。克：我也没听见（笑）。恐怕我们没明白你的意思。（问题被重述一遍）克：为什么你说盘腿闭目静坐，那一切做法都是自我催眠。我感觉我非常接近你说的意思了，为什么你说那不是冥想？为什么你说它是自我催眠。这些就够了。
12:05	Now which of these shall we take up – all connected with the mind. All these questions, I don’t know if you have observed, if you’ve listened, are dealing with the nature of thought, the nature of the mind, what is intelligence, and what is meditation – right? Now, which of these shall we take?	那么我们挑哪个——这些全与心有关系。所有这些问题，不知大家注意到没有… 要是你听过的话，都与思想的性质，心的性质，什么是智慧还有什么是冥想有关——对吧？我们拿哪个讨论呢？
12:41	Q: Can we go on with yesterday’s talk? I had the feeling we didn’t go over it completely?	问：我们继续昨天的谈话可以吗？我感觉我们没有把它讨论透彻。
12:50	K: Could we go on discussing, talking over together, yesterday’s meeting, because the questioner says, ‘I don’t feel we have gone through completely to the very end of it’.	克：我们一起继续讨论昨天会议上的问题，好吗？因为提问者说： “我感觉我们没有把问题穷根究底”
13:06	So we have got two questions, fundamental questions: thought with all its complexities, its mechanical habits, its constant activity, never a moment that it is quiet, meditation, and what we talked about yesterday – love, intelligence, compassion. Now which of these do you want?	所以，我们有两个问题，两个基本问题；错综复杂的思想，它机械的习惯，不停的活动，没有一刻安静，冥想，还有我们昨天谈到的——爱、智慧、慈悲。这些问题你们想讨论哪个？问：爱。
13:42	Q: Love.	克：我是很不情愿去碰这个词的，人们把它给糟蹋了——对上帝的爱，
13:49	K: One is rather shy of that word because it is so spoilt – love of God, love of my family, love of poems, go for a lovely walk – you follow? Sex, the politicians use the love of the country, love of God, love of Jesus, love of Krishna, and so on, so on. So one is hesitant to use that word. So perhaps, if I may suggest, we will talk about that question, which you have asked, by enquiring first – we are discussing, we are talking over together, it is not a solitary conversation with oneself – if we could go into this question of meditation, then we may be able to understand whether it is possible for thought to be absolutely quiet, and not compelled, coerced, forced, all the rest of it. And perhaps, if we could take that question and go into it very, very deeply, then perhaps we can also enter into the field of what is intelligence, love, compassion. And without those, which is the essence of that love, the mind can never be totally free from all its manifestations, its trickery, its deceits and dishonesty. So would it be all right if we talked about that?	对家人的爱，对诗歌的喜爱，可爱的、令人愉快的散步——跟上了吗？性，政客们所倡导的对国家的爱，对上帝的爱，对耶稣的爱，对奎师那的爱，等等、等等、等等。所以，使用这个词的时候你就感到犹豫。或许，要是我可以提个建议的话，我们来谈谈你们提过的那个问题，通过首先调查… 我们是在讨论，我们是在一起探讨，它不是我跟自己的单独谈话，——如果我们能够深入探讨冥想的问题，然后，或许我们就可以明白思想是否可能彻底地安静下来，而不是被迫的，不是受到了逼迫、胁迫等等。或许如果我们讨论那个问题，非常、非常深入地去调查它，那么我们还有可能进入到智慧、爱和慈悲的领域。没有那些东西，那种爱的精髓，心永远也无法摆脱它所有的那些表现，它的欺骗、它的狡诈和弄虚作假。那么我们讨论那个问题好吗？
16:06	Q: Yes.	问：好。
16:07	K: You are not pleasing me, please, I don’t care, if you want to talk about something else, we will.	克：请不要取悦我，拜托。如果你们想谈别的什么，我也没有意见。
16:14	All right. The first question, if I may ask: is it possible to have a brain that is not twisted, that is not neurotic, that is very healthy, young? I am asking that as the first question. Do you understand? I am asking, to put it very simply: can the mind remain young and not grow old, decay, corrupt, but keep its quality of youth; youth being – please, listen – decision, action and vitality. Right? That is generally accepted as the meaning of youth – to have an enormous amount of energy, decision, acting, and that sense of freedom. That, I think, would more or less describe what is a young mind. Would you agree to that? A definition, we can change it, I am not sticking to those words, but to have a mind that is extraordinarily clear, simple, having great energy, vitality and capable of instant decision and action. Right? Would you agree to that? Q: Yes.	好的。第一个问题，要是可以问的话：有没有可能拥有一个不扭曲、不神经质，而是非常健康、年轻的大脑？这是我问的第一个问题。大家理解吗？我的问题，用非常简单的说法就是：心能否保持年轻，没有衰老、腐朽、败坏，而是保持它年轻的品质？年轻是指——请听好——果断、行动和活力。对吧？那是我们通常所接受的年轻的含义 ——精力充沛，行动果断，以及自由的感觉。我想，那多少说明了什么是年轻的心。大家同意吗？一个定义，我们可以改变它，我不死抓着这些词不放，而是拥有一颗极其清楚、简单，有着旺盛的精力和活力，能够当机立断、迅速行动的心。对吧？大家同意吗？问：同意。
18:54	K: That is only a definition, you can change the definition, change it how you like, but let’s all agree, if you accept that: that is the quality of a mind that is young, that is not hurt, that has no problems, that is living – living, not in the future or in the past, but actually living in the present. That is, again, I said, one is using words to convey the quality of a mind that is youthful. If we agree to that definition, that definition can be changed as you like.	克：那只是一个定义，你可以改变这个定义，根据你的喜好改变它，但是我们都同意，如果你同意的话，那是一种心的品质，年轻、没有受到伤害，没有问题，它在生活着，不是生活在未来或过去，而是真实地生活在当下。就是说，我还说过你是在用词语传达年轻的心的品质。如果我们同意那个定义，那个定义是可以依你的喜好而更改的。
19:57	Now, how can that mind come into being? That is the first thing. You understand my question? You are following?	那种心如何才能产生？那是第一个问题。大家理解我的问题吗？跟上了吗？问：先生，使用身体的智慧，而不是心的智慧，这样不可以吗？
20:13	Q: Sir, wouldn’t you need to use your body intelligence and not your mind?	克：等等，我就要谈到…存在身体的智慧，
20:25	K: Wait, I’m coming... There is the intelligence of the body, the intelligence which has been spoilt by indulgence, by drugs, by drink, alcohol, all that extravagance. And so the intelligence of the body – the body has its own intelligence if left alone, not destroyed, not corrupted by taste, by desire, and all the rest of it. The body has its own intelligence, if you have observed it. So we’ll leave that for the moment. All right, if we must go into it much deeper, we will.	这种智慧已经被毒品、饮酒、酒精之类的奢侈享受给毁掉了。那么身体的智慧，如果不受干扰，不受到味觉、欲望等等那些东西的破坏和腐蚀，身体是有其自身的智慧的。如果你观察过的话，你会知道身体有它自己的智慧。我们暂时把那个搁置起来。好，如果必须更深入地调查，我们会去调查的。
21:17	Our mind is the result of our senses. Right? Isn’t that so? This is science, this is just natural. And we don’t exercise all the senses together. Right? Are you following this? But exaggerate one or two senses, and so there is never a balance. I do not know if you have experimented or watched this, or are aware of your senses. Either one or two senses dominate and the other senses are in abeyance or not totally functioning, and so there is always inequality, always imbalance in the activity of our senses. Right? You are following all this? Please do follow this! Don’t go to sleep because we are coming into it.	我们的心是我们的感官的结果。对吧？不是吗？这是科学，这只是自然的事情。而我们没有同时去运用所有的感官。对吧？这一点你跟上了吗？而是侧重使用一两个感官，所以，感官总是不平衡的。不知你是否试验过、观察过或者意识到感官的这种现象。或者一两个感官占据支配地位，其它感官被弃用，或者没有充分发挥作用，所以我们的感官的活动总是存在不平等，总是失衡。对吧？这一切你们都跟上了吗？一定要跟上! 不要睡觉，我们就要讲到它了。
22:53	So is it possible that all our senses work together, totally, harmoniously? That is the first question, because our whole structure is based on senses, perception, taste, touch, and all that. Now, if there is imbalance in our senses, our brain, our mind is affected, naturally. And from this imbalance there is neurotic activity. So is it possible – please go into it with me, it is a dialogue, I am not giving a speech – can we see the movement of the sky, the clouds, the shadows on the mountain with all our senses together? You understand my question? Will you do it as you are sitting there, observing yourself? Please, as I said yesterday, unless you apply, actually apply, do it, you can sit there for the next 50 years, you will do nothing. But if you apply, actually work it out, then you will see for yourself that as long as there is imbalance in the senses, the mind, which is also part of the senses, part of thought, then that imbalance invariably creates disharmony. Right? Do it, please, as you are sitting there, observe it, actually apply.	那么，有没有可能让我们所有的感官完整地、和谐地一起工作？那是头一个问题，因为我们的整个结构是建立在感官、知觉、味觉、触觉等等上面的。如果我们的感官失衡，我们的大脑，我们的心自然会受到影响。因为这种失衡而出现神经质的行为。所以，有没有可能——请和我去调查一下，这是对话，我不是在演讲——我们能否用我们所有的感官同时去看天空、云朵和云朵投在山上的影子？大家理解我的问题吗？你们可以一边坐在那儿，一边观察自己吗？注意，就像我昨天讲的，除非你用心，真的用心去实践一下，否则你可以在那儿再坐上50年，而你将一事无成。可是，如果你用心，把它实际地弄清楚，那么你自己就会明白只要感官、心处于失衡的状态，心也是感官的一部分，思想的一部分那么，那种失衡总会造成不和谐。对吧？实践一下吧，在你们坐在那儿的时候，真的用心把它观察一下。
25:16	Q: Could you give a concrete example of what you mean by imbalance of the senses?	问：您能用一个具体的实例来说明感官失衡是什么意思吗？
25:29	K: Concrete example of imbalance of the senses. I am not good at giving examples. I think examples are wrong, because you have to find out. If one gives an example, that becomes the pattern. You follow? And then you say, ‘I must conform to that’, or ‘No, that example is not good, a better example’, and so on, we battle with examples. I hope you understand this. I can think out an example: sex, drugs, various forms of sensory entertainments, where only the eye or the ear functions, not the totality of all the senses. You understand all this?	克：感官失衡的具体实例。我不擅长举例。我认为举例子是错误的，你必须去查明真相。如果你举例子，那就成了范例。跟上了吗？然后你说：“我得按照那个去做”，或者“不，那个例子不好，举个更好的例子”等等，我们围绕例子争吵起来。我希望大家理解这个。我可以想出个例子来：性，毒品，各种感官娱乐，其中只有眼睛或者耳朵，而不是所有的感官在发挥作用。这些大家都理解吧？
26:41	So, the mind – are you all? Am I talking? As the gentleman pointed out the other day, I am performing. He said that. I am performing and doing an excellent performance, which is a rather unpleasant word, but there it is. And this is a dialogue between you and me, so don’t, please, become quiet and just listen. So that is part of the mind.	所以，心——大家都…？我讲的…？就像那天，那位先生指出我是在表演。他是那么说的。我是在表演，表演得非常精彩，这话让人很不舒服，但事实就是这样。这是你我之间的对话，所以，请不要静静地只是听。所以，那是心的一部分。问：我们谈论
27:26	Q: Can we neglect the condition of the brain when we talk about the same mind?	同一颗心的时候，能忽略大脑的制约吗？
27:34	K: When we use the word ‘mind’, sir, we are including in the ‘mind’ all the activity of the senses, all the activities of thought, all the activities of emotions, whether imagined or real, romantic, sentimental – all that, the whole of human activity is the mind. At least I look at it that way. You may look at it differently, but as we are two friends talking over together, I change my vocabulary, you change your words, but we mean the same thing. That is, the mind contains, holds, all the senses, all the emotions, all the romantic, sentimental attitudes, values and also the enormous complexity of thought, the memories, the experiences, the hurts, the wounds that one has received from childhood, psychologically, inwardly, and the intention, the motive, the drive, the desires – all that is the mind.	克：当我们使用“心”这个词的时候，先生，这个心包括所有的感官活动，所有的思想活动，所有的情绪变化，不管是想象的还是真实的，浪漫的还是多愁善感的，所有那类活动，全部人类的活动就是心。至少我是这样看的。你或许看法不同，但因为我们是在一起探讨的两个朋友，我们使用的词汇不同，但我们指的是同一个东西。就是说，心包含所有的感官，所有的情绪，所有浪漫的、多愁善感的态度和价值观念，还包括极其错综复杂的思想，记忆、经验，一个人在童年时期心理上、内心当中受到的伤害，以及意图、动机、欲望、渴望，那些都是心。
29:07	Q: Is love in the mind?	问：心包括爱吗？
29:12	K: We are coming to that: is love part of the mind? Do you understand the question? Is love contained in the mind? What do you say? Dialogue, please.	克：我们就要谈到那个：爱是心的一部分吗？大家理解这个问题吗？爱包含在心当中吗？你们怎么说呢？来，对话。
29:39	Q: No.	问：不包含。克：不包含？问：爱不包含在心当中。
29:44	K: No?	克：这位女士说，爱不包含在心里面。
29:45	Q: It is not in the mind.	那么它在心之外吗？
29:51	K: The lady says, it is not in the mind. Then is it outside the mind? Sir, go into it for yourself, it is a dialogue.	先生，亲自调查一下，这是对话。问：可能心是爱的一部分。克：心是爱的一部分。
30:21	Q: Perhaps the mind is part of love.	请非常仔细地深入调查这个问题。
30:24	K: The mind is part of love. Go very carefully into this, please. You think it out, sir, go into it, dialogue.	你来把它想清楚，先生，调查一下，对话。
30:46	Is love remembrance? Go into it, madame, just look at it. I am asking you. Is love something that has happened, and you remember it? Therefore I am asking, is love part of remembrance? You have been kind to me, I remember it, and therefore I have affection for you. You know – remembering. Is love a remembrance? If it is not, is it then within the structure and nature of the mind? This is a very difficult question, please, don’t just slip it by. That is why I want to go into this carefully.	爱是记忆吗？把它调查一下，夫人，就是看着它。我希望你这样做一下。爱是发生过的和你记住的什么事情吗？所以，我问的是，爱是记忆的一部分吗？你曾经对我很友好… 我把它记在心上，所以我喜欢你。你知道——记忆。爱是记忆吗？如果不是，那么它包含于心的结构和性质当中吗？这个问题很难回答，请不要一带而过。那就是我想仔细调查这个问题的原因。我们多少定义了——定义是可以变化的
32:09	We have defined more or less – that definition can be changed – the nature of the mind, with all the senses, so on, so on. And all this is predominated by thought. Right? That is the central activity – right? – that controls the senses, exaggerates the senses, gives importance to a certain sense and not to the others, that creates images, conclusions, aggressiveness, assertiveness. All that is the activity of thought. Right? So thought predominates all our activity, including the senses, dominating the intelligence of the body. You are following all this? So thought is the central factor that is constantly operating, controlling, deciding, changing, modifying, pursuing, establishing a goal and driving towards that, and the past with all its memories, anxieties – all that, the whole of that is the activity of the mind, which is thought. Right? You are quite sure? Please, discuss with me. Please!	心以及所有感官等等的性质。思想在这一切当中占据主导地位。对吧？思想是核心的活动。——对吧？思想控制着感官，突出感官，重视某个感官，不重视其它感官，思想制造形象、得出结论、进行扩张，形成自信。那一切都是思想的活动。对吧？所以，思想支配了包括感官在内的我们的全部活动，它还主宰着身体的智慧。这一切你们都跟上了吗？所以，思想是核心因素，它不停地运转着、控制着，做着决定、改变、调整，不停地追求着，树立一个目标，然后为此努力，还有过去及其所有的记忆、焦虑等等，整个那一切都是心的活动，也就是思想。对吧？大家确信是这么回事吗？跟我讨论一下。来！
34:21	Q: All the senses give the same sensation to the mind.	问：所有的感官都给心同样的感觉。
34:30	K: All the senses in the mind are equal.	克：在心里面，所有的感官是平等的。问：具有同样的反应。
34:38	Q: The same response.	克：具有相同的价值。问：对。
34:39	K: Same value. Q: Yes.	克：对心而言，可是思想却说，这个比那个好。问：是的。
34:43	K: To the mind, but the thought says this is better than that.	克：就是那么回事，我们说的就是那个。
34:48	Q: Yes. K: That is all, we are saying that.	问：在思想消耗感官的时候，感官就变得麻木了。
34:52	Q: When thought is consuming the senses, the senses become dull.	克：当思想运作、支配的时候，感官就麻木了。
34:59	K: When thought exercises, dominates, the senses become dull. Could we move from this – right, sir? Right? Can we move on? Now, meditation is part of thinking, otherwise you wouldn’t meditate. Right? Would you? No?	我们把这个先搁置起来——好吗，先生？好吗？我们可以继续讨论吗？冥想是思考的一部分，否则你是不会去冥想的。对吧？你会吗？不是吗？问：冥想是一种非思考状态吗？克：我们就要去调查一下。
36:10	Q: Is meditation a non-thinking?	可是，首先看到当你开始冥想、
36:16	K: We are going to go into it. But first, see, when you start meditating, sitting quietly, closing your eyes, it is the activity of thought. First, because you want to achieve or feel good in that position, doing something. Right? So thought has brought this about through desire. No? Please, this is not very complex. I sit in that position, cross-legged, or whatever it is, it is called the lotus position, close my eyes, because I have been taught, or I have read, or I have heard somebody, that if you do this, you will have a marvellous experience.	闭目静坐的时候，它是思想的活动。首先，因为你想要利用那种姿势，通过做些什么来达到或者找到良好的感觉。对吧？所以，思想通过欲望引起了这个行动。不是吗？来，这个没那么复杂。我那样盘腿坐着，不管是什么姿势，它叫做莲花式，闭上眼睛，因为我学过、读过或者听别人讲过，要是这样做，你就会有奇妙的感受。
37:14	Q: No, sir. I do it, but only to watch my thoughts.	问：不，先生。我静坐只是为了观察我的思想。
37:17	K: Wait. That is a different matter, sir. You see the difference? I do it because I want to achieve certain experience, because I have read about it, or have been told about it, and it gives you certain pleasure, I feel rather relieved, relaxed. Right? And I maintain that, giving more and more importance to my feeling, of certain pleasure, certain experience, certain state of mind. And I practise, go on doing it. But the origin of that is the movement of thought. Right?	克：等一下。那是不同的事情，先生。你看到区别了吗？我静坐是因为我想要得到某种体验，因为我读过或者听别人讲过这方面的东西，它给了你某种快乐，我感到如释重负，非常放松。对吧？于是我坚持做，越来越重视某种快乐、某种感受、某种内心状态给我的感觉。于是我去练习，继续静坐。但是那种行动的起因是思想的运动。对吧？问：您讲的是冥想练习，
38:29	Q: What you are talking about is the practice, but within this practice meditation can happen. But there is a difference between the words...	可是冥想可以从这种练习当中出现。是存在着区别的，可能突然间会有别的什么事情发生。
38:51	Q: Within this practice of meditation, suddenly something else could happen.	克：是的，这就是冥想练习，
38:56	K: Yes, this is the practice of meditation, and in that something suddenly can happen. Right? Right, sir? Q: Yes. What happens is real meditation. I mean it is just a question of words.	在那种练习当中，会突然发生什么事情。对吧先生？问：是的。出现的是真正的冥想。我是说它只是个文字的问题。
39:15	K: Sir, we are investigating. Right? You are jumping to conclusions, you are saying it happens. I question the whole thing.	克：先生，我们是在调查。对吧？你是在往结论上跳，你说的是发生了什么。我怀疑的是整件事情。
39:31	Q: Sir, when we sit quietly to watch our minds, our eyes get naturally shut and we become quiet. We don’t sit with our eyes purposely shut, so as to come to meditation.	问：先生，我们静坐，观察我们的心的时候，我们的眼睛自然会闭上，于是我们安静下来。我们不是坐着，刻意地闭上眼睛，好开始冥想的。
39:50	K: Sir, the speaker has played with all this. Right? This is not something new you are telling me. So have patience. I have been through all this: sitting quietly, breathing, repeating, hoping for something to happen! Nonsense.	克：先生，这一切讲话者都玩过。对吧？你告诉我的不是什么新鲜的东西。所以，请保持耐心。这一切我都经历过：静坐、呼吸、重复、期望有什么事情发生！都是无稽之谈。
40:25	You are not meeting my point: why do I meditate? Why does one meditate?	你没有回答我的问题：我为什么冥想？你为什么冥想？问：因为我们躁动不安。
40:37	Q: Because we are agitated.	克：当你心里有数不清的烦心事儿，当你感到不安、紧张、焦虑的时候，
40:45	K: When you are agitated, nervous, anxious, crowded with innumerable problems, by sitting quietly we hope to get away slightly from that.	我们希望通过静坐得到些许解脱。
41:06	Q: Not hope, sir, just watch.	问：不是希望，先生，就是观察。
41:08	K: Yes, just relax till you are overcome again. But – forgive me – you are missing my point of view, what I am saying, which is, all this is the origin of thought, origin of desire. No? Right, sir? Why are you hesitant? What’s wrong with it?	克：是的，只是放松，直到你再次不安起来。可是——请包涵——你没有理解我的意思，我讲的东西，就是这一切都来源于思想，来源于欲望。不是吗？对吧，先生？你们为什么犹豫？有什么不对的地方？
41:40	Q: Yes.	问：对。问：难道思想不能看到它自身的无用，
41:44	Q: Can thought not see its own uselessness, and stop because it sees it is useless?	然后因为看到了它毫无用处，于是它就停下来吗？
41:58	K: You seem to think, madame, and the others, that I am opposed to meditation. I am totally, completely opposed to the meditation that you are all doing, because that is not meditation, because I have been through all this.	克：你们好像认为，夫人，还有其他人，我反对冥想。我完全彻底地反对你们那种冥想，因为那不是冥想，这一切我都经历过了。
42:29	Q: Maybe we must investigate what you mean by meditation.	问：或许我们得去调查你说的冥想是什么。
42:35	K: We explained what the word means, madame. The word means to think over, to ponder, to investigate, to concentrate in order to look at your problems, and all that is involved in that one word.	克：我们解释过那个词的含义，夫人。那个词的意思是思考、琢磨、调查、聚精会神地审视你的问题，以及那个词所包含的全部那一类东西。
42:59	Q: Sir, if you are opposed to our meditation, are you not creating a division?	问：先生，您要是反对我们的冥想，您不是在制造分裂吗？克：抱歉，我收回“反对”这个词。
43:09	K: Excuse me, I withdraw that word ‘oppose’. What one is doing, what is called meditation is not meditation. All right. It is the same thing, sir. I am not opposed to it. I am just saying, what one considers meditation, if you are willing to examine what the other person has to say, he says that is not meditation. Meditation is something much more complex, more... etc., So we are two friends talking over, I am not opposing you. We are talking this over. We say meditation begins with desire, with thought. Right? You hear somebody from Tibet, from India, from Zen, from god knows what other place, and he expounds what meditation is. He says, ‘Do it, sit down quietly, I will give you a system to make you calm, restful, relaxed’. So your thought accepts it, desires to achieve it, and you sit in that position. Right? This is so obvious, what are you objecting to?	你们做的所谓冥想不是冥想。好了。我不是反对它。我只是在讲一个人认为冥想是什么，如果你愿意去调查一下别人讲的是什么，他说那不是冥想。冥想是更复杂、更如何、如何的事物。（笑）所以，我们是两个朋友，正在进行讨论，我不是在反对你。我们在仔细讨论这个问题。我们说冥想始于欲望，始于思想。对吧？你听到西藏、印度、禅宗，或者天知道别的什么地方的人讲过，他详细地阐述冥想是什么。他说道：“这样做，安静地坐下，我教你一套让你平静、悠闲、放松的方法”。于是你的思想接受了那种冥想，你渴望做到，于是你按那种姿势坐着。对吧？这非常明显。你们反对的是什么？
44:43	Q: Would you say because the idea started a meditation, all meditation is only idea? K: That’s right, sir. That’s what I am saying differently. So meditation begins with thought. Right? And desire says, ‘I must achieve that, something which I experienced yesterday in the sitting quietly, and I want that, I want it to continue’. I practise, I force, I follow a system – all the activity of thought. That’s all. What are you objecting to?	问：您是说因为冥想始于观念，所有的冥想只不过是观念而已？克：对的，先生。那就是我给出的不同的说法。所以，冥想始于思想。对吧？而欲望说：“我必须达到昨天我静坐时体验到的什么状态，我想要那种状态，我想让它保持下去”。我去练习，我努力，我遵从一个体系——全都是思想的活动。就这些。你们是在反对什么？
45:31	Q: Sometimes I’ve meditated to go out of identification.	问：我做过摆脱认同的冥想。
45:50	K: I have meditated for a couple of hours, the questioner says, to get away from myself. Right? Is meditation an escape?	克：我冥想过一个钟头提问者说，来消除自我。是吗？冥想是逃避吗？问：它是暂时的解脱。
46:06	Q: It’s a temporary relief.	克：那就吸点儿毒品（笑声），吃点儿镇定神经的东西。
46:10	K: Then take a drug, take a thing that quietens your nerves. You see, sir, you are not following all this, you are wasting time! Temporary relief, temporary excitement, temporary experience, temporary quietness, all that you call meditation. My lord, how that word has been misused! Could we get on with it a little bit?	你看，先生，这一切你都没有弄清楚，你是在浪费时间。暂时的解脱、暂时的兴奋、暂时的体验、暂时的安静，你们把那些叫做冥想。天啊，看这个词给滥用成什么了！我们把它继续讨论一下好吗？问：我看你也是一样的，因为你说你想要
47:09	Q: I suppose that you are doing the same, because you say that you want to be free, and therefore you look at your feelings, problems.	自由，于是你去观察你的感受和你面临的问题。
47:18	K: I am not, sir. I am sorry you have misunderstood. I am not doing that.	克：我不是那样的，先生。很遗憾，你误会了。我没有那么做。
47:25	Q: Could it be that one cannot force meditation, but it is the ultimate?	问：你不能用力去冥想，但冥想是终极目标，是这样吗？
47:30	K: Sir, could we stick to one thing? We are saying, we are asking, we have gone so far, which is, what is the nature of the mind? We talked about that. And that mind is dominated by thought. Thought is perpetually in activity: when you are sleeping, when you are awake, when you are walking, when you are by yourself, it is constantly moving. And that becomes a strain – right? – that becomes nervous, anxious. To bring about a quietness, a relief, a sense of peace, you try to ‘meditate’ – quote meditation. And achieve a little bit of that, and you practise it, and you call that meditation. I say please that is not meditation. It is something much wider, deeper, that requires a great deal of enquiry. So please, listen, exchange, not say, meditation is this, meditation is that, it appeals to me, it doesn’t appeal to me. Then we stop discussing. Whereas we say, look, let’s find out. Right?	克：先生，我们盯住一件事情好吗？我们说的是，到目前为止，我们说的是，心具有什么样的性质？我们谈的是那个问题。心受到思想的支配。思想没完没了地活动着，在你睡觉、醒着、走路，独自一人的时候，它不停地运动着。那会导致紧张——是吧？——导致紧张、焦虑。为了得到某种平静、解脱、一种宁静的感觉，你试图去“冥想”——加引号的冥想。为了得到一点安宁，你去练习，你管那个叫冥想。我说，注意，那不是冥想。它是更为广阔、更为深邃的东西，需要的是大量的调查，所以，要倾听，交流，而不要说冥想是这样的，冥想是那样的，它对我有吸引力，没有吸引力。那样的话，我们就终止了讨论。而我们说的是，听着，咱们去查明真相吧。对吧？
49:10	Q: Krishnaji, I admit I don’t know what meditation is. Could we go into what meditation is? K: I am doing it, sir.	问：克里希那吉，我承认我不知道什么是冥想。我们调查一下什么是冥想，好吗？克：我正在调查，先生（笑）。
49:18	Q: Is it possible to know what meditation is at all?	问：我们究竟有没有可能知道冥想是什么呢？
49:24	K: Is it possible to know what meditation is at all.	克：我们究竟有没有可能知道冥想是什么。
49:28	Q: Know it all, what meditation is.	问：完全地了解什么是冥想。
49:30	K: Yes, sir, that is what I am saying. Could we put it this way: when you deliberately set about to meditate, it is not meditation. Right? Because behind that deliberate act is desire, behind that is thought having come to a conclusion, pursuing that conclusion. We say that is not meditation. You may say, you are wrong. I say, all right, let’s talk it over. So thought dominates. Right? That’s simple and clear. No? All our activities, whether you meditate, whether you sit down, you practise, you try to force the mind to be quiet – all that is still the activity of thought.	克：是的，先生，我谈的就是那个问题。我们这么说好吗：当你刻意去冥想的时候，它就不是冥想了。对吧？因为在刻意行动的背后是欲望，是已经得出结论并追逐那个结论的思想。我们说那不是冥想。你也许会说，你错了，我说，没关系，咱们讨论一下吧。所以，思想处在支配地位。是不是？那很简单，一目了然。不是？所有我们的活动，不论是冥想、静坐、修炼、力求让心静下来，那一切依然是思想的活动。可是，爱是思想的活动吗？
50:48	And is love the activity of thought? Right? Go on, sir. Let’s talk it over. Does the activity of thought bring about right relationship between two people? Because if you haven’t established right relationship with one another, you can sit on your... legs crossed for the rest of your life. Unless you lay the foundation of relationship, having no conflict, and so on, so on, any form of meditation is just an escape into another series of illusions.	是吗？继续先生。咱们讨论一下。思想的活动会给两个人带来正确的关系吗？因为如果没有跟另一个人建立正确的关系，你可以在余生当中一直盘着腿坐下去。除非你为那种毫无冲突、毫无矛盾的关系奠定了基础，任何形式的冥想都只不过是另外的一连串的幻觉罢了。所以，爱是思想的活动吗？
51:57	So is love the activity of thought?	问：好像不是这么回事。
52:04	Q: It doesn’t seem so.	我爱你。
52:07	K: I love you. I really do. Isn’t it strange?	我真的爱你。这不是很奇怪吗！
52:20	Q: Isn’t love the absence of thought? Because if you were thinking about what some of us have done, you probably wouldn’t love them.	问：难道爱不是不存在思想的状态吗？因为如果你在考虑我们当中一些人的所作所为，很可能你就不会爱他们了。
52:32	K: How sad it is. Q: So therefore, um…	克：某个人，先生，某个人过来对你说：“我爱你，伙计，
52:35	K: Somebody, sir, somebody comes and tells you, ‘I love you, old boy, I love you’, you don’t go on with your thinking, do you? You just listen to him. Q: Right.	我爱你”，你不继续思考，是不是？你只是听他说话。问：对。
52:48	K: You don’t.	克：你没有这么做。问：那么，那是不是，呃…?
52:52	Q: So, isn’t that...	克：（笑）你们都这么孩子气。（笑声）
52:56	K: You are all so infantile.	我们问的是，爱是思想的活动吗？
53:08	And we are asking, is love the activity of thought? Is love the activity of the senses? Is love the activity of desire? Please, find out, investigate in your life. When you are controlled, when your sex becomes all important, which is the activity of the senses.	爱是感官的活动吗？爱是欲望的活动吗？请查明这个真相，到你的生活里去调查。当你被控制的时候，当你的性变得无比重要的时候，那是感官的活动。
53:50	Q: We have to be aware of this activity then.	问：那么我们必须觉察到这种活动。
53:54	K: One has to be aware, sir, but first, know the nature of one’s mind. Through awareness you can discover this, that means you have to look at it, look at your desires, the sensory desires. Wanting food, the taste of food, the compulsive eating food of a certain kind because it tastes nice, exercising a certain capacity of the eyes, optical, seeing something always, or the sensory responses of sex. These are the dominant factors in our life, and you are trying to move away from that.	克：你必须意识到，先生，但是首先要了解你的心的性质。你可以通过觉察发现这种活动，那意味着你必须去审视它，审视你的欲望，感官欲望。想要食物，食物的味道，强迫性地进食某种食物，因为它好吃，使用眼睛的某种光学的功能，总去看一些东西，或者对性的感官反应。这些是我们生活当中的主导因素，而你们试图离开那个状态。问：爱只能是思想的一部分。
55:03	Q: Love can be only a part of thought.	克：你说的是，先生，思想是爱的一部分？
55:16	K: Are you saying, sir, thought is part of love?	问：不是，我是说，爱是思想的产物。
55:24	Q: No, I am saying love is the product of thought.	克：哦，不！
55:32	K: Oh no! Love is the product of thought. Sir, when you say, it can only be, it must be, you have already come to a conclusion, you have stopped investigating.	爱是思想的产物。先生，在你说它只能、它一定的时候，你已经得出结论了，你已经终止了调查。
55:57	Q: You asked the question, is love part of thought?	问：你问过这个问题，爱是思想的一部分吗？
56:01	K: Yes, is love part of thought? Which means does love contain the whole movement and the complexity of thought? You understand? If it contains thought, is that love? You don’t even go into it, look at it.	克:是的，爱是思想的一部分吗？就是说，爱包括思想的全部运动以及它的错综复杂的情况吗？大家理解吗？如果它包含思想，那是爱吗？你们甚至都没去调查一下，审视一下。
56:34	Q: I don’t know the word in English. I know it in French. I think it is ‘l’état’ or ‘zustand’ in German.	问：我不知道在英语里是哪个词。法语我知道。我想它是'L'ĂŠtat'，或者用德语说（听不见）。
56:46	Q: A state.	问：一种状态。
56:58	Q: She says it is a state of being. Un état.	问：她说它是一种存在状态。 Un ĂŠtat.
57:09	K: Ah, steady, you are using Sanskrit. I want to be careful! I am also pretty good at all this, sir, don’t play with it. You are all so... We have gone beyond this, madame. Please, go on.	克：啊，你在说梵语。我得留神了！在这方面我也很擅长，不要玩这个。你们都太…我们跑题了夫人。来，接着讨论吧。
57:39	Q: I just want to ask you a question about meditation, if I may. I seem to have been under the illusion, the delusion, that the best things of which I do is done for me effortlessly. Now, is this my illusion completely?	问：如果可以，我就想问你一个关于冥想的问题。我好像曾经处在那种幻觉、那种错觉当中，就是最好的那种事是在毫不费力的情况下做的。这完全是我的幻觉吗？
58:02	Q: He says that he meditates effortlessly. Is that an illusion?	问：他说他毫不费力地冥想。那是幻觉吗？
58:08	K: We must understand when you say, ‘I meditate effortlessly’, what do you mean by that word ‘effort’.	克：我们必须理解，当你说 “我毫不费力地冥想”的时候，你说的“费力”这个词是什么意思。
58:19	Q: I lie down and the process begins within, in which all I need to do is release the mind, my thinking process to it. I don’t make any effort to release, it just happens.	问：我一躺下，这个过程就开始了，我只需放开我的头脑，把我的思考过程交给它。我不努力去放松，它自己就会发生。
58:32	K: Sir, when you know you are meditating, it is not meditation.	克：先生，如果你知道你在冥想，它就不是冥想。
58:36	Q: There are moments when I don’t know I am meditating. Isn’t that meditation?	问：有些瞬间我不知道我在冥想。那不是冥想吗？克：你听到我的话了吗，先生？
58:40	K: Have you listened to what I said, sir?	问：听到了，先生。
58:42	Q: Yes, sir.	克：如果你知道你在冥想，它就不是冥想。
58:43	K: When you know you are meditating, it is not meditation. Oh, you don’t know, no. You don’t see the beauty of all this. You are just going on and on and on.	哦，你不明白。你没有看到这一切的美妙之处。你只是在兜圈子。
58:59	Q: I am trying to find out, sir.	问：我是在尽力弄明白，先生。
59:04	Q: Krishnaji, thought is so fragmented...	克：你究竟为什么冥想呢？
59:16	K: Why do you meditate at all? You have never even asked that question. What you call meditation, why do you do it? Is it that they have brought it from India, from Tibet, from Japan, and you like to play with it?	你甚至都没有问过那个问题。你称为冥想的东西是什么，你为什么要冥想？是因为你从印度、西藏、日本把它拿过来，你喜欢玩它吗？
59:37	Q: Sir, when one is angry, for example, when I have been angry, or I have a problem, I am in conflict. If I do, we are both agreed it is not meditation but just sitting down quietly to watch my thoughts.	问：先生，比如说，你生气了，我生气了，或者我遇到了问题，我内心矛盾。如果我是那样的，我们都同意它不是冥想，可是，只是静静地坐下来，观察我的思想。
59:52	K: Yes, sir, that is just when you are angry, to examine it, to go into it, it is not meditation.	克：是的，先生，那只是当你生气的时候，去检查它，去调查它，它不是冥想。
1:00:00	Q: It is not meditation, but it is useful.	问：它不是冥想，可是它有用。
1:00:02	K: Yes, sir, yes, sir. I agree. To be aware that you have been angry, to go into the whole question of anger, that is not meditation.	克：是的，先生，对，先生。我同意。意识到你生气了，对整个生气的问题进行调查，那不是冥想。
1:00:15	Q: But he says it is useful, Krishnaji?	问：可是他说它是有用的，克里希那吉？
1:00:18	K: Not the meditation that you are talking about. I said: when you know you are meditating, it is not meditation. Swallow that pill and look at it!	克：不是你谈的那种冥想。我说过，当你知道你在冥想的时候，它不是冥想。接受这个事实，看看这个事实吧！（笑声）
1:00:40	Q: Sir, cannot love itself take me away from the realm of thought?	问：先生，爱本身可以让我脱离思想的领域，不是吗？
1:00:51	K: Meditation helps me to get away from myself, from my thoughts. Then go to a cinema.	克：冥想帮助我摆脱自我，摆脱思想。那就上电影院。（笑声）
1:00:59	Q: Can love? Love. Love. Can love itself help me?	问：爱能吗？爱，爱。爱本身能帮助我吗？问：爱能让他脱离思想的领域吗？
1:01:07	Q: Can love take him away from the realm of thought?	克：爱能让他脱离思想的领域吗？
1:01:17	K: Can love take him away from the realm of thought? You understand the question? Can love bring about freedom from the realm of thought? You understand? Can love free the mind from the activities of thought? What do you say? Don’t look at me. What do you say?	你理解这个问题吗？爱能让你脱离思想的领域，获得自由吗？你明白吗？爱能让心摆脱思想的活动吗？你们怎么看？别看着我。你们怎么看？问：先生，思想本身，难道不是思想自己在回答那个问题吗？
1:02:08	Q: Sir, thought itself, isn’t thought itself answering that question?	克：先生，这个问题非常好。
1:02:13	K: Sir, it is a very good question. The mind is incessantly active, sleeping, waking, daydreaming, sitting quietly, when it is not under control, pop comes the thought in. So does love free the mind from the activities of thought? No! You see what you have done? You are using love as a means of escape from thought. But if you have understood the nature of thought – please, follow this – and thought gives its own right place, then you don’t have to move away from it, thought has established itself in its right place. You understand this? Then love is not an escape, or an avoidance, or moving away from thought.	思想总在不停地忙碌，睡觉的时候，醒着的时候，做白日梦的时候，静坐的时候，你不控制它，它冷不丁地就会冒出来。所以，爱能让心摆脱思想的活动吗？不能！你看你们做了什么？你把爱当成逃避思想的手段了。可是，如果你理解了思想的性质——注意这个，思想有其自己正确的位置，那么你就无需摆脱它，思想已经确立了它的正确位置。这个大家理解吗？那么爱就不是在逃避，或者回避，或者摆脱思想了。
1:03:38	Q: Is that meditation?	问：那是冥想吗？克：什么？
1:03:42	K: What?	问：那是冥想吗，他问。
1:03:44	Q: Is that meditation, he asks.	克：（笑）先生，就像我说过的，你知道自己在冥想的时候——对吧？
1:04:01	K: Sir, as I said, when you know you are meditating – right? – sitting in that position, breathing, repeating a mantra – all that, when there is that activity, it is not meditation. I will tell you why, if you will listen. All that is the activity of desire and thought. Obviously. A guru comes along – I don’t know why they do, unfortunately they do – comes along and he says, ‘Do this and you will have the most marvellous experience of God, or of enlightenment’. ‘You will have extraordinary experience’. And he lays down certain systems, methods, practices, and we being gullible, not having the quality of scepticism to question him, we say, ‘All right, Swami’ – or Lord or whatever you call him – and we practise it. And in the very practising of it you have certain quietness, certain experience, and that delights you. You say, ‘At last I have got something’. Right? And I say that is the activity of desire, activity of thought which has projected an image of something to be experienced. And that image can be experienced only through certain practices, certain repetition of words, especially in Sanskrit, that sounds far better! And so you repeat it. But it is still the activity of thought and desire. So unless you understand this, what is the nature of thought, what is the nature of desire, gone into it, given it its right place, and thought gives itself its right place, then you will be everlastingly battling with thought, with all the images that it has created. That is very simple. No?	坐成那个姿势，调息，反复唱诵，所有那些，当存在那种行动的时候它就不是冥想。如果你愿意听的话，我会给你讲。那全是欲望和思想的活动。很明显。一位古鲁走过来，——我不明白他们为啥要来遗憾的是他们还是来了，他过来说道：“你要是这么这么做就会得到对于神或者开悟的最为奇妙的体验” “你会体验到奇妙的东西”。他制定了某些修炼体系、方法，而我们轻易就相信了，没有怀疑的精神，不去质疑他，我们说：“好的，斯瓦米，”——或者上师或者不论你怎么称呼他，我们就开始修炼了。就在这个修炼当中，你会感到某种宁静，某种感受，让你喜悦。你说道：“我终于找到了”。对吧？我说那是欲望的活动，那是思想的活动，它投射出要你去体验的某个形象来。那个形象只能通过某种练习，某种词句的反复吟诵，尤其是梵语，那听起来感觉就更好了！于是你就反复地吟诵。可是它依然是思想和欲望的活动。所以，除非你理解这一点，思想的性质，欲望的性质，对它进行深入研究，给它正确的位置，而思想给了它自身正确的位置，你将与思想、与思想制造出来的所有形象无休无止地斗争下去。这很简单。不是吗？
1:06:38	Q: Sir, is love denied by thought? Is it covered over – if there wasn’t thought, would there be love?	问：先生，爱被思想否定了，是吗？它被遮盖了是吗？如果没有思想，爱会存在吗？
1:06:52	K: He asked, when there is thought, is there love? No! But if there is no thought, you can be in a state of amnesia.	克：他问，思想存在的时候，爱存在吗？不存在！可是如果没有思想，你会处于一种健忘的状态。
1:07:14	Q: Is psychoanalysis a form of meditation?	问：精神分析是冥想的一种形式吗？
1:07:20	K: This is getting worse and worse! Is psychoanalysis a form of meditation. Do you know what psychoanalysis is? Investigating into the past. Psychoanalysis, analysing oneself, either by the professional – psychotherapist, psychologist, psychoanalyst, Freudian, Jungian, Adlerian and innumerable names – or you investigate yourself, analyse yourself. Who is the analyser and what is he analysing? Is not the analyser the analysed? So he is playing a trick upon himself. You don’t see all this. So analysis, either psychotherapeutic, of various group therapies, you know, all that is going on, various forms of psychotherapy – is not meditation. Good lord! Think what we have reduced meditation to!	克：（笑）越来越离谱了！（笑声）精神分析是冥想的一种形式吗？你知道精神分析是什么吗？对过去进行调查。精神分析，对自己的分析，或者是有专业的心理治疗师、心理学家、心理分析师，弗洛伊德、荣格、阿德勒，等不计其数的名字，或者你去调查你自己，分析你自己。谁是分析者，他所分析的又是什么？分析者不就是被分析的对象吗？所以，他是在捉弄他自己。你没有看到这一切。所以分析，不论是各种团体疗法的心理治疗，你知道，所有各种形式的心理治疗都不是冥想。天哪！想想吧，冥想都沦为什么了！
1:08:47	Q: Sir, the beginning of the process of observation which you have been talking about for the last ten days, is that not also thought?	问：先生，开启观察的过程，过去十天里你一直在讲的这个，不也是思想吗？
1:08:58	K: Madame, as we explained earlier in these talks, there is only observation, not the observer. Right? You are agreeing to that? You know what that means, madame? The absence of me. The absence of all the past, just to observe, without the word, without the name, without association, without remembrance, just to observe.	克：夫人，就像我们在这些谈话的开始所解释的那样，只有观察，没有观察者。对吧？你同意吗？你明白那是什么意思吗，夫人？我不在了。问：在那个瞬间… 所有的过去不在了，就是没有语言、没有命名、没有联系、没有记忆地观察，就是观察。
1:09:37	Q: In your ‘Notebook’, sir, you make mention of a process.	问：在您的“笔记”那本书里，先生，您提到一个过程。
1:09:43	K: Look, sir, there is no process; you see, that is what I am pointing out, sir. The moment there is a process for meditation, that process is the result of thought. And thought has laid down the process in order to achieve something. You people don’t listen!	克：听着先生，不存在过程，你看我在指出什么，先生。一旦存在冥想的过程，那个过程就是思想的产物。思想规定了为了达成什么而需要经历的过程。
1:10:07	Q: You never decide to start meditating? How do you start meditating, in other words?	你们这些人没有听！问：你从来不做开始冥想的决定吗？换句话说，你怎样开始冥想呢？
1:10:16	Q: She says do you never decide to start meditation?	问：她说您从来不决定开始冥想吗？
1:10:20	K: Does the speaker decide to meditate? I have answered the question. You people... We have said, sir, that when you decide to start meditation, it is not meditation. When you put yourself in the hands of another who will teach you how to meditate, it is not meditation. When you follow a system, it is not meditation. When you accept the authority of another who says, ‘I know, you don’t know, I will tell you what to do’, it is not meditation. And so on, so on, so on.	克：讲话者决定冥想了吗？我回答过这个问题。你们这些人…我们说过，先生，当你决定开始冥想的时候，它就不是冥想了。当你将自己交到另一个人的手里的时候，他会教你怎么冥想，但它不是冥想。当你遵从一个体系的时候，它不是冥想。当你接受权威，或者追随另外一个说： “我懂，你不懂，我来告诉你该怎么做”的人的时候，它不是冥想。等等、等等，不一而足。
1:11:24	Q: Please, can we see it as this – when we go out walking, you don’t think about meditation, and at once you see something very beautiful, you have the feeling you want to close your eyes and totally... Your mind stays...	问：请问，我们可以这样理解吗？——当我们到外面散步时，我们不考虑冥想的事，突然间你看到了某种非常美丽的事物，你有种想要闭上眼睛，完全（听不见）的感觉。你的心停在那里… 克：是这样，是这样。
1:11:41	K: That’s right, that’s right. The lady says, as you are walking in the wood, quietly, not carrying all the burdens of your problem, suddenly you have a certain sensation, feeling, and you are watching, and thought comes over and takes charge and makes it into a memory, and wanting it more. All that is not meditation.	这位女士说，当你安静地在树林里散步的时候，没有任何问题的负担，突然间你有了某种感觉、感受，你正在观察着，思想过来，接管起来，将它存放到记忆里，并且还要更多。那全都不是冥想。
1:12:12	Q: Just to observe, is that love?	问：只是去观察，那是爱吗？
1:12:20	K: Is pure observation love. You see... Look, sir, have you observed that way – pure observation? To observe without remembrance, without naming, without a conclusion, just to observe.	克：纯粹的观察是爱吗？你看… 听着先生，你那样观察过吗，纯粹的观察？没有记忆、没有命名、没有结论地观察，只是观察。
1:12:52	We have spent an hour and a quarter nearly, discussing verbally what is meditation, what is love. We haven’t come to anything.	我们差不多已经过了一个小时零一刻钟了，在口头上讨论什么是冥想，什么是爱。我们什么也没讨论出来。
1:13:11	Q: Are we trying to get somewhere?	问：我们是试图要到达什么地方吗？（笑声）
1:13:16	K: I am not.	克：我没有。
1:13:19	Q: Krishnamurti, you asked for a dialogue. Can you listen for just a few moments?	问：克里希那穆提，你要求对话，你能听我稍微说一会儿吗？
1:13:27	K: Oh, delighted!	克：哦，请说！
1:13:29	Q: I want you to try to answer again the question you brought up before. You asked whether love can be a product of thought. My answer was that love can only be the product of thought. I understand what you mean by thought. I recognize that you feel thought is conditioned. That’s to say, I know how you define thought. I think thought can be something else. This isn’t in line with your own views, and so you put it aside. Can you not perhaps pursue that point? Can thought be other than conditioned? Because if it can be other than conditioned, then thought can lead one to a type of thinking, if one will, a ‘heart’ thinking, an intuitive thinking, whatever word one chooses, can, I believe… can only lead one to love.	问：我想要你把前面提的问题再回答一遍。你问爱是否是思想的产物。我的回答是爱只能是思想的产物。我明白你说的思想是什么。我认识到你感觉思想是受到制约的。就是说，我明白你是怎样定义思想的。我认为思想可以是别的什么事物。或许你能就此进行一下讨论吗？思想能不受制约吗？因为如果它不受制约，那么思想可以把你引导到一种思考里去，如果你愿意的话，一种“心”的思考，一种直觉的思考。
1:14:36	Q: He says he feels there is a thought that is unconditioned.	问：他说他感觉存在一种不受制约的思想。
1:14:43	K: The gentleman says, in essence, that there is a thought which is unconditioned. There is a thought, or there is thinking which is unconditioned. I don’t know anything about it.	克：这位先生说的，简而言之就是，存在一种不受制约的思想。存在一种思想，或者思考，它不受制约。对此我一无所知。
1:15:09	Q: You just said thought must find its own place.	问：你刚才说过思想必须找到它自己的位置。克：思想有其自己的位置。
1:15:19	K: Thought has its own place. Not what you said, sir, the lady says that. Is there a thought which is not conditioned, is there a thought which is not limited? There may be, but I wouldn’t call it thought. Right? Thought, as is generally understood, is the process of thinking. Thinking is the movement of memory, movement of experience, movement of knowledge. The whole process of that is thinking.	不是你说的那个，先生，那句话是这位女士说的。（笑）存在不受制约的思想吗？存在不受限制的思想吗？可能存在，不过我不会管它叫思想。对吧？思想，按通常的理解，是思考的过程。思考是记忆的运动、经验的运动、知识的运动。那整个过程就是思考。
1:16:15	Q: Not solely. I don’t see it solely as you describe it.	问：不完全是。我看它跟你描述的不完全一样。
1:16:21	K: Right, sir.	克：好的先生。
1:16:22	Q: I would ask you what does the word ‘intuition’ mean to you?	问：我想问，对你来说，“直觉”这个词是什么意思？
1:16:33	K: Intuition can be projected by desire.	克：直觉可以是由欲望投射出来的。
1:16:39	Q: Not solely.	问：不完全是。克：你甚至都不去听。
1:16:41	K: You don’t even listen. It is so impossible to discuss this. When you are so definite about your point of view, then I am afraid it becomes a barrier. One doesn’t investigate the other. May I finish this strange dialogue that we have had up to now?	这个简直是无法讨论了。要是你对自己的观点如此确信的话，那么恐怕它就成了一种障碍。你就不会去调查另一个事物了。我可以把进行到现在的这个奇怪的对话做个总结吗？
1:17:07	Q: Yes. Q: Please.	问：好。问：请讲吧。
1:17:10	K: We started out by asking: what is the relationship of thought to meditation and to love? Right? We went into the question that our mind contains, or is the result, of the senses, the emotions, crooked, sane, irrational, illusory, and so on, the sentiments, the judgements, the evaluations, the memories, the hurts, the anxieties – all that, which is under the umbrella of thought. Thought is the central factor. And as thought is the result of knowledge, and knowledge is always limited, and therefore with knowledge goes ignorance, thought is fragmented, broken up, limited. And when thought says, ‘I must meditate, I must find out truth, I must achieve enlightenment’, thought is playing games with itself. That is obvious. So meditation has nothing to do with thought. When you sit down and deliberately meditate, it may be pleasant, it may give you certain relaxation, you may have certain pleasurable experience, but all that is a deliberate action by thought and desire to achieve a certain result. Therefore that is not meditation.	克：我们是从一个问题开始的：思想和冥想，思想和爱是什么关系？对吧？我们深入探讨过这个问题，我们的心包括感官、情绪，不自然的情绪、正常的情绪、无端的情绪、幻觉的情绪等等，还包括多愁善感、评判、评价、记忆、伤害、焦虑，或者说心是这些东西的产物，所有那些东西，都被罩在思想的伞下。思想是核心因素。因为思想是知识的产物，而知识总是局限的，因此伴随着知识的是无知，所以思想是支离破碎的、局限的。当思想说：“我必须冥想，我必须查明真相，我必须开悟”的时候，思想是在跟自己游戏。显然如此。所以，冥想跟思想毫无关系。你坐下来，刻意冥想，它可能会令人愉快，它可能会给你某种放松的感觉，你可能会有某种快乐的体验，但是，那全都是思想和想要达成某个结果的一种刻意的行为，因此那不是冥想。
1:19:35	And what is the relationship of thought to love? That is what you were asking, madame. Love – this becomes rather difficult – love is free from thought. Love is not the product of thought. If it is, it is still part of desire, obviously. So love is independent, is free from all the activities and chicanery, dishonesty, desires, sensations, sex. That is not love. Where love is, the ‘me’ is not. Obviously. The ‘me’, the ego, with all its arrogance, conceits, aggressiveness, humility, pretension to humility rather – all that is the ego. What has that got to do with love? You understand?	思想和爱是什么关系呢？那是你问的问题，夫人。爱——这个问题是相当不好回答的——爱是没有思想的。爱不是思想的产物。如果是，它就依然是欲望的一部分，显然如此。所以，爱是独立的，它摆脱了一切活动，以及欺诈、虚假、欲望、感觉和性。那不是爱。哪里有爱在，“我”便不存在。显然如此。 “我”，自我，以及“我”的一切傲慢、自负、咄咄逼人、谦卑、自称谦卑，其实那全都是自我。那与爱有什么关系？大家理解吗？
1:21:13	So love is beyond thought. Then what is the relationship between meditation and love? When one deliberately, purposefully, actively participates in the so-called meditation, that meditation leads to illusion, and that illusion has no relationship with love.	所以爱在思想之外。那么冥想和爱是什么关系呢？当你刻意地、有目的地、积极地参与所谓的冥想活动的时候，那种冥想会导致幻觉，那种冥想跟爱毫无关系。
1:21:53	But there is a meditation, if you are interested in it, which is not deliberate, which has nothing whatsoever to do with desire. There is a meditation which must be totally undesired, totally free of thought. And to find that meditation – I am not offering it as a reward if you are interested in it – you have to go into the question of desire, give it its right place, whether desire has any place at all, and also thought has to find its own place and remain there. Then meditation becomes something totally different from what you are doing.	但是，有一种冥想，如果你对它感兴趣的话，它不是刻意去做的，它和欲望也没有丝毫的关系。有一种冥想，它必然完全脱离了欲望，必然完全摆脱了思想。要发现那种冥想，——我不是把它当作奖赏提供给你，如果你对它感兴趣，你就得深入调查欲望的问题，给它正确的位置，不管欲望究竟有没有位置，而思想也必须发现它自己的位置并呆在那里。然后冥想和你们现在做的那些事情就完全不同了。
1:22:57	That is, one has to find out what is reality and what is truth. Reality is also illusion – do you understand? The reality of these mountains, the hills, the groves, the meadows, the river – that is reality, you can see it. And also reality is all the illusions like nationality, like your beliefs, your dogmas, your rituals, your saviours, your Krishnas – all that, those are all illusions. They might have existed – might – but what we have made of them is illusion. That’s a reality. Go into a church, into a temple, into a mosque – that is a reality. That is all the product of thought. Right? Of course. So reality has to be understood, seen. Reality – everything that thought has created, the atom bomb. The atom existed before thought investigated and created the bomb. Thought did not create nature, but thought has used nature. The chair one is sitting on is made by thought out of wood. And truth has nothing whatsoever to do with reality. To find that is meditation. To begin to establish right relationship with human beings, not the everlasting battle between sexes, between human beings, killing each other, terrorising each other, destroying the earth, and so on, so on. If we don’t stop that, what is the good of your meditation?	就是说，你必须去弄清楚什么是事实，什么是真相。事实也是幻觉——大家理解吗？这些高山、小山、树林、草坪、河流的事实，那是事实，你可以看到它。还有所有的幻觉的事实，比如国家、比如你的信仰、你的教条、你的仪式、你的救世主、你的奎师那，那全都是幻觉。它们也许存在过——也许——但是我们是用幻觉制造的它们。那是幻觉。上教堂、上寺庙、上清真寺，那是事实。那全是思想的产物。对吧？当然如此。所以，必须理解、看到事实。事实——思想制造的每一样东西，原子弹。在思想研究和制造出核弹之前，原子就存在了。思想没有创造自然，而是利用自然。我坐着的这把椅子是思想用木头制造的。而真相与事实没有任何关系。发现真相就是冥想。着手在人类之间建立正确的关系，而不是无休无止的两性之间的斗争、人类之间的斗争、彼此杀戮、彼此恐吓、彼此毁灭，等等。我们如果不停止那些斗争，你的冥想有什么用呢？
1:25:33	Sir, first, you have to be good. By your goodness you bring about a good society. And if you are not good inside – good – I am using that word specifically because it is not the goodness, ‘Be a good child’, I don’t mean that. We will go into that perhaps tomorrow, another day. But if there is not goodness in you, you cannot produce a good society. And without goodness in you, you can meditate till doomsday, go to India, go to Tibet, visit various monasteries, and attend various gurus who say this, and who deny that – you know, play that game if it amuses you, but don’t deceive yourself saying ‘That is meditation, I have meditated’. Right? So if you have no love in your heart, your meditation will be destructive.	先生，首先你得是个好人。你的善良会让你创造一个美好的社会。而如果你的内心不好——好——我给了这个词一个特殊的含义，它不是“做个好孩子”那种好，我不是那个意思。或许明天，或许另外一天，我们会去深入探讨那个问题。可是如果你的内心当中没有良善，你就无法创造一个美好的社会。心中没有善，你可以一直冥想到世界末日，到印度，到西藏，到处拜访寺庙，去陪伴各式各样的说这个对、那个不对的古鲁，你们知道，如果你觉得这个游戏好玩你就玩，但不要欺骗自己，不要说：“那是冥想，我冥想过”。对吧？所以，如果心里没有爱，你的冥想会带来毁灭。