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SA79D4 - 我们生活中的首要问题是什么？
第四次公开讨论，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月28日



0:47 Krishnamurti: We are still continuing with our dialogues. Unfortunately it seems to me that I am talking most of the time, that you are not sharing, or having a conversation with the speaker. If I may, I would like to suggest something: we’ve been talking about meditation, love, thought, and other things, but it seems to me that we are not talking about our daily life, our relationship with others, our relationship to the world, our relationship to the whole of humanity. And we seem to be wandering away from the central issue all the time, which is our daily life, the way we live, and if we are at all aware of our daily turmoil, daily anxieties, daily insecurity, daily depressions, the constant demand of our daily existence. Shouldn’t we, I am just asking, be concerned with that this morning and tomorrow morning, and not go off into all kinds of vague, idealistic, theoretical pursuits? Could we, I am just asking, – perhaps you would not like that – I am just asking whether we could not this morning talk over together, as friends, about our daily life, what we do, what we eat, what our relationships are, why we get so bored with our existence, why our minds are so mechanical, and so on, our daily existence. Could we talk about that? And restrict ourselves to that only. Could we?

Q: Yes. 		克：我们还是接着讨论。 令人遗憾的是，似乎大部分时间都是我在说， 你们没有参与进来没有与讲话者进行对话。 请容许我提个建议：我们已经谈过 冥想、爱、思想和其它一些东西了，但我觉得好像 我们没有谈过我们的日常生活，我们与别人的关系… 我们同世界的关系，我们同整个人类的关系。 而且，我们似乎总在围着核心问题兜圈子， 也就是我们的日常生活，我们的生活方式，要是我们 对于日常生活里的混乱、焦虑、不安全感、 挫折感以及对于生活的不断要求还算有所觉察的话。 我们可不可以，我只是在问， 在今天和明天上午关注一下这个问题， 而不去是去追寻各种模糊的、理想主义的、理论上的东西？ 我只是在问大家，我们，也许你们不喜欢， 我只是在问，今天上午，我们可不可以一起 像朋友一样讨论一下我们的日常生活，我们做什么，吃什么， 我们的关系如何，为什么我们对生活如此厌倦， 为什么我们的心如此机械，等等，我们的日常生活。 我们谈谈这个好吗？而且我们只谈这个话题。 可以吗？

问：可以。
4:04 K: At last! 克：终于可以了！（笑声）
4:20 What is our daily life, if you are aware of it? Not escape into some fantasies, cut all that out, what is our daily life? Getting up, exercise if you are inclined, eating, going off to the office, or to the factory, or some business or other, and our ambitions, fulfilments, our relationship with another, intimate or not intimate, sexual or not sexual, and so on. What is the central issue of our life? Is it money? Central issue, not the peripheral issues, not the superficial issues, but the deep demand. Please, look at it yourself. What is it we demand, we ask? Is it we want money? 大家意识到我们平时是什么样子了吗？ 不要躲到某些幻想里去，把那些都扔掉，我们的日常生活是什么样子？ 起床，要是你愿意的话，做做运动，吃饭， 到办公室，或者工厂，或者这样那样的生意， 我们的野心、成就感，我们同他人的关系， 亲密或者不亲密，有性关系或者没有性关系，等等。 我们生活的核心问题是什么？ 是钱吗？ 核心问题，不是外围问题， 不是表面问题，而是内心深处的需求。 请大家自己审视它。 我们问，我们的需求是什么？ 我们是需要钱吗？

问：不是。
5:49 Q: No. 克：别说不是，我们需要钱。
5:52 K: Don’t say no, we need money. Is money the central issue? Or to have a position? You understand? To be secure, financially, psychologically, to be completely certain, unconfused? What is the main urge, demand, desire of our life? I wish you would… Right? Go on, sirs. 钱是核心问题吗？ 或者拥有一个地位？ 大家理解吗？ 在经济上、心理上感到安全， 完全确定，毫不困惑？ 我们生活中主要的冲动、要求和渴望是什么？ 先生们，继续思考。
6:58 Q: Joy of work. 问：工作的乐趣。

克：工作的乐趣。
7:08 K: Joy of work. Would you say that to the man who is turning the screw day after day, day after day, day after day, on a moving belt – joy of work? Or to a man that has to go to the office every morning, be told what to do, typing, every day of one’s life? Please, face it. That is what we are asking: is it money? Is it security? Is it lack of work? And having work, then the routine of work, the boredom of it, and the escape from it through entertainment, night clubs, jazz – you follow? – anything away from our central existence. Because the world – I am not preaching, you must know all this – the world is in a horrible condition. You must know all this. So as fairly intelligent, serious human beings, what is our relationship to all that? The moral deterioration, the intellectual dishonesty, the class prejudices, and so on. You know all this. The mess that the politicians are making, the endless preparation for war. What is our relationship to all that? Please, let’s have a dialogue about it, a conversation. You see, when we come to that point, we are all silent. 你认为在流水线上拧螺丝的那个人，日复一日， 日复一日，日复一日，他是出于工作的乐趣吗？ 或者，每天早上到办公室去的那个人， 听人吩咐，打字，一辈子天天如此？ 请正视这个问题。 那就是我们的问题：是钱吗？ 是安全吗？ 是缺少工作吗？ 而有了工作，工作就成了例行公事，令人厌倦， 然后，通过娱乐，夜总会，爵士乐逃避这种乏味的生活。 大家清楚吧？——任何让我们逃离生活的核心部分的东西。 因为这个世界——我不是在布道，这一切大家一定都是知道的。 现在世界的状况是很可怕的。 所有这些情况大家一定都知道。 那么，作为很有智慧的、很严肃的人类， 我们同所有那一切是什么关系？ 道德的败坏，知识分子的欺诈， 等级歧视，等等。 这一切大家都知道。 政治家造成的混乱，永无休止的备战。 我们同那一切是什么关系？ 我们就此来进行对话、交谈吧。 你看我们一说到这个，就全都鸦雀无声了。
9:34 Q: We are all part of it. 问：我们都是其中的一部分。

克：我们都是其中的一部分。
9:43 K: We are all part of it. I quite agree. Do we know we are part of it? Aware of it, that our daily life – you understand? – daily life, contributes to all this? And if it does, what shall we do? Take drugs? Get drunk? Join some community? Go off to a monastery? Or put on yellow, purple, bright colours? Would that solve all this? So please, I would like to discuss. What shall we do? What is our daily life, of which the society is made, the politicians are thoughtlessly using us for their own power, for their own position? So being aware of all this, what is our relationship to that, and what is our life, which obviously is contributing to that? Right? Am I saying something extravagant? 非常同意。 我们知道我们是其中的一部分吗？ 我们的日常生活 ——大家理解吗？——我们的日常生活在助长这一切，我们意识到了吗？ 而如果确实如此，我们该做什么？ 吸毒？ 酗酒？ 加入什么团体？ 进修道院？ 或者穿上黄色的、紫色的，色彩鲜亮的袍子？ 那能解决这一切问题吗？ 那么，我想讨论一下，好吗？ 我们该怎么办？ 我们的日常生活是什么样子，社会正是由它组成的，政治家们 草率、无情地利用着我们，追逐着他们自己的权力和地位。 那么，意识到这一切之后，那和我们是什么关系？ 显然，我们的生活对此负有责任，那和我们的生活是什么关系？ 对吧？ 我是在讲什么不切实际的东西吗？

问：我们想要改变它，可是我们不知道如何改变。
11:51 Q: We would like to change it, but we don’t know how. 克：我们想要改变它，可是我们不知道如何改变。
11:54 K: We’d like to change it, but we don’t know how. What is the ‘it’? “它”指的是什么？
12:03 Q: The way of living as we do now. 问：我们现在的生活方式。
12:10 K: The way we are living now, we don’t know how to change it. Therefore we accept it. Right? Why is it that we can’t change it? 克：我们现在的生活方式，我们不知道如何改变。 于是我们接受了它。 是吗？ 为什么我们无法改变？
12:27 Q: Perhaps we wait for someone else to tell us. 问：可能我们是在等什么人来告诉我们。
12:32 K: Are you waiting for some miracle to happen? Are we waiting for some authority to tell us what to do? The priest, the guru, the whole racket of that? Or go back to the Bible? There are people are doing it; the so-called intellectuals, having written something anti– or pro-communism, totalitarianism, are going back to God. You follow? Because they can’t find an answer to all this, and they think through tradition it will all be solved. You know all this. 克：你在等待发生什么奇迹吗？ 我们是在等着某个权威来告诉我们该怎么做？ 等着牧师、古鲁，那些骗人的家伙？ 或者，重新拿起圣经？ 有这样的人；所谓的知识分子，写了些 反对或支持共产主义、极权主义的东西，他们又信仰起上帝来了。 大家清楚吗？ 因为对这一切他们找不到答案， 所以，他们以为回到传统，所有问题就都会得到解决。 这些大家都是知道的。
13:26 Now, why can’t we in our daily life change what we are doing? That’s why… Let’s come back: what is our daily life? Please, investigate, this is a conversation, I am not the only speaker. 为什么我们不能在日常生活当中改变我们的行为？ 请大家去调查，这是一次对话，不是只有我一个人发言。
13:51 Q: It’s not only contribution but also escape into the contribution. 问：它不只助长，而且还逃到它助长的东西里面去了。
13:57 K: Beg your pardon? 克：请再说一遍好吗？
13:58 Q: It is not only we are contributing, but also we are escaping into what we contribute. 问：我们不只是在推波助澜， 我们还逃到我们所推波助澜的东西里面去了。
14:04 K: Yes. So I am going back, madame. I am asking, if we are part of this society, and society is becoming more and more horrible, more and more intolerable, ugly, destructive, degenerating, as a human being, is one also deteriorating? You follow? 克：是的。所以，我回过来，夫人。 我问的是，如果我们是社会的一部分，这个社会变得 越来越可怕，越来越有破坏性、令人无法忍受，越来越丑陋、 堕落，作为人类的一员，你是否也在堕落？ 跟上了吗？

问：我认为我们没有看到我们是其中的一部分。
14:38 Q: I think we don’t see it, that we are part of it. 克：这位女士说我们没有看到。
14:43 K: The lady says, we don’t see it. Why? Don’t we know our own daily life? How am I to...? 为什么？ 我们没有看到我们自己的日常生活？

克：我该怎样…？
15:00 Q: Yes, because our daily life is a kind of self-centred activity. 问：是的，因为我们的日常生活是一种自我中心的活动。
15:11 K: I know. Our inner life, our life is self-centred activity, he says. And if that is so, and if that is contributing to the monstrous society in which we live, why can’t we change that central activity, egotistic activity – right? Why can’t we? 克：我明白。 他说，我们内心的生活，我们的生活是自我中心的活动。 如果是这样的话， 如果那种生活是在为我们这个骇人的社会推波助澜， 为什么我们不能改变那种自我的活动，以自我为中心的活动——对吗？ 为什么不能？
15:40 Q: Too often, we are unconscious participants in our own lives. Until we become conscious of everything that we are doing we can’t change it.

K: I understand. That is what I am asking, sir: can we become conscious, aware, know the activities of our daily life, what we are doing? 		问：在太多的时候，我们是不知不觉地参与我们自己的生活的。 除非认识到我们所做的一切，我们是无法改变它的。

克：我理解。 这就是我的问题：我们能意识到、 觉察到，了解到我们日常生活的各种活动，我们的所作所为吗？
16:04 Q: Being a mother, and having children, it is very difficult. 问：作为一个母亲，还带着孩子，这是非常困难的。
16:26 K: All right. Being a mother and having children, it is a very difficult life. Right? Is that one of our problems? You see, come and join in the game, sir, don’t just... I am a mother. I have children, and are they growing up into monsters like the rest of the world? You understand? Like all the rest of you? Ugly, violent, self-centred, acquisitive – you know, what we are. Do I want my children to be like that? 克：是这样。 作为一个母亲，带着孩子，生活非常不易。 是吗？ 那是我们的问题之一吗？ 你看，来，参与进来先生，不要只是说 我是一个母亲。 我有孩子，他们会长成恶魔吗？ 像世界上其他人那样？ 大家明白吗？ 像你们其他人那样？（笑声） 丑陋、暴力、自我中心、贪婪，大家知道，那就是我们。 我愿意我的孩子像那个样子吗？
17:22 Q: In big cities there is contamination, and you cannot isolate children because that’s where you are living in the moment. You have to face that you are there in the moment and you cannot change. 问：大城市里有污秽的东西，你不可能把孩子 隔离起来，因为你现在就在那里生活。 你得面对这个事实，目前你就在那里，你改变不了… （听不清）
17:51 K: I know all that, sir, I know all that. 克：这些我都知道，先生，我都是知道的。
17:56 Q: Krishnamurti, please try perhaps to short circuit the negation of our past conditioning, which we should know in its entirety by now, not fragmentarily, and think how in our everyday lives, each one of us can put a sort of universal love into service without any motives to our fellow human beings. 问：克里希那穆提，请尽量克服我们过去的制约， 现在，这个我们是应该完整地而不是零星地了解的， 请想一想我们每个人如何才能 不带任何动机地以一种普世的爱服务 我们的人类同胞。
18:33 Q: I would say, it is not just in the big cities that you have this problem of pollution of minds and conditioning, but all over. I think my problem, because I have this problem with my children... For me it seems that I have to wake up to the quality of my existence in relationship with my children and everything around me. This seems to be my problem, not the outside conditions. 问：我想说的是，这种精神污染问题和制约， 不只是你在大城市工作会遇到，到处都是这样的。 我认为我的问题，因为我跟我的孩子有这个问题。 对我而言，好像是我得在跟我的孩子以及周围一切事物的关系中， 对我的生活品质有个清醒的认识。 看上去这才是我的问题，而不是外部环境。
19:11 K: What shall we do together? 克：我们一起来做什么呢？
19:17 Q: Can we look at fear? 问：我们可以审视一下恐惧吗？

克：我们可以审视一下恐惧。
19:20 K: We can look at fear. Sir, if you loved your children, loved them – you understand? – not just born, they are born, they are sent off to school, they must be conditioned this way, they must pass… If you really loved them, what shall we do? Apparently it is not a problem to you. You talk about it, but it isn’t a biting, demanding, urgent problem. 先生，如果你爱你的孩子，爱他们——你理解吗？ 不是刚出生的孩子，他们出生后， 给送到了学校，他们必然会受到这样的制约… 显然，对你而言，这不是个问题。 你谈到这个问题，但是你没有感到刺痛、紧迫，和给与关注的需要。
20:16 Q: Sir, it seems that society is battling in one respect to go to work every day, most people just go to work, and they don’t carry on when they get out of work. In other words, there is no blending of their work and their recreation. In other words, they go to work, it is learning all the time, and when the bell rings and you are told to leave, you can still learn. You may adapt your job to your recreation, you can adapt your recreation to your job, but there is always a learning process going on, which doesn’t seem to be happening in the world. It is not just going to work and doing a job, it is going to work and learning. Then when you are out of work, you continue this learning. You can adapt your free time to your work time. How many people go home and consider their jobs when they are not at their office? How many people go home and try to learn more about their lives, whether they are at work or whether they are at home? 问：先生，从某个方面看，社会好像是矛盾的， 大多数人每天上班，就只是上班， 下班后就不再继续做了。 换句话说，他们的工作和娱乐没有融合在一起。 换句话说，上班的时候，他们一直在学习着， 而打下班铃时，你可以走了，但你依然可以学习。 你可以让工作适应娱乐， 也可以让娱乐适应工作，而始终处在学习当中， 但这种情况根本没有出现。 上班不是就是干活， 那是工作和学习。 然后，下班后，继续这种学习。 你可以让自由的时间适应工作的时间。 有几个人回到家，不在办公室里的时候， 还考虑工作? 有几个人回到家还努力增进对生活的了解？ 不管他们是在上班还是在家？
21:28 K: Having said that, where am I? Where are you? Are we still dealing with what might be, what should be, what ought to be, or are we facing the fact? You understand? Facing the fact. 克：说完了这些之后，我现在在哪儿了？ 你在哪儿了？ 我们依然是在纠缠可能怎样， 将会怎样，应该怎样，我们是在面对事实吗？ 大家明白吗？面对事实。
21:47 Q: We are facing the fact, there is a big separation between our work lives and our free time. 问：我们是在面对事实，在我们的工作 我们的生活和业余时间之间有着巨大的鸿沟。
21:56 K: Sir, do I face the fact, – please, kindly listen - do I face the fact, you and I, that we are part of this society? We have contributed to it, our parents have contributed to it, our grandparents’ parents, and so on, they have contributed to this, and one is contributing. Is that a fact? Do I realize that? 克：先生，我是在面对现实吗？劳驾听我说一说， 我，你我是在面对我们是社会的一部分这个事实吗？ 我们助长了它， 我们的父母助长了它，我们的祖父母的父母（笑声） 等等，他们助长了这个，还有你，正在助长它。 那是事实吗？我认识到那一点了吗？

问：是这样的，这非常非常清楚。
22:31 Q: It is very, very clear that that is so. 克：不，先生，咱们盯住这一点，慢慢地把它弄清楚吧，好吗？
22:34 K: No, sir, let us take that one point and work that out slowly, please. Do you and we together realise, in the sense realise, as you realise pain, as you realise a toothache, do we realise it that we’re contributing to it? Right? Do we? 我们大家一起认识到了吗？就像感到疼痛， 感到牙痛一样，我们认识到我们是在给这个社会推波助澜了吗？ 对吗？ 我们认识到了吗？

问：我们认识到了。
23:06 Q: Yes, we do. 问：要是我们仍旧处在过去的制约当中，
23:08 Q: Yes, we are contributing to it with eyes of our own past conditioning if we are still involved in it and don’t see what is not right for now, for our present position of living now. Yes, we are in that case. 看不到对于现在，对于我们现在的生活状况，什么是正确的生活， 我们就是在用过去的眼光看待问题并推波助澜。 是的，我们就是那个样子。
23:26 Q: No, I don’t see. If... 问：我没有看到。假如…
23:31 K: That’s if, ought, or might. 克：那是假如（笑），应该或者也许。
23:38 Q: Sir, we must know how we are contributing to it, why we are contributing to it, the whole effect of what that contribution involves. How do we contribute to it? 问：先生，我们必须了解我们是如何推波助澜的，为什么我们在 推波助澜，那种推波助澜所带来了整个影响是什么？ 我们是怎么推波助澜的？
23:55 Q: If you analyse it, you’re taking forever. You must look at it, understand it, and say, ‘Look, I understand it, and I’m no longer like that, and I am going to go out of it’. No, you don’t! You can do it in an instant. 问：你要是去分析，那就会没完没了。 你得去审视它，理解它，然后你说：“看，我明白了， 我不再是那个样子了，我要从里面走出来。“ 而你没有。 这件事你一瞬间就可以做到。

问：先生，我无法面对事实，因为思想在干扰我。
24:25 Q: Sir, I cannot face the fact because thought intervenes. 克：你不能面对事实吗？
24:30 K: Can’t you face the fact? When we say, ‘I am part of that society’, what do we mean by that? 在说：“我是社会的一部分”的时候，我们是在表达什么意思？

问：我根本没有看到这个。（听不清）
24:42 Q: I don’t see it at all... 克：先生，我们每个人的话都在
24:49 K: Sir, how are we going to talk over together when each one of us is pulling in different directions? Can’t we think together about this one thing: that is, we human beings have created this society, not gods, not angels, nobody, but human beings have created this terrible, violent, destructive society. And we are part of that. When we say we are part of it, what do we mean by that word ‘part’? You understand my question? Just begin slowly, please. What do I mean when I say I am part of that? 引向不同的方向，我们要怎么一块儿去讨论呢？ 我们能不能就这一件事情一起讨论：就是 我们人类创造的这个社会，不是神，不是天使，而是 人类创造了这个可怕的、暴力的，带有破坏性的社会。 我们是其中一部分。 我们说我们是其中一部分时，我们用的“部分”这个词是什么意思？ 大家理解我的问题吗？就这样慢慢地开始讨论，来。 我说我是其中一部分时，我是什么意思？

问：先生，您采取的这个方法是不是已经
25:43 Q: Sir, isn’t the approach you are taking already setting up a division between me and society? In other words, is there such a thing as society, or is this here society, and not I and you society? When you set up this monstrous, horrible society, it is an abstraction that is different from the people in this room. 把我跟社会分开了。 换句话说，存在社会这种东西么？ 或者说，在这儿有社会，却又不是你我之间的社会？ 你指的这个骇人的、可怖的社会 是个抽象的东西，它和这个屋子里的人是不一样的。
26:08 K: Yes, sir, I am saying that. I am exactly saying that: society is not out there, society is here. 克：一样的，先生，我说的就是这个。 我说的正是：社会不在那边，不在外面，社会就在这里。
26:16 Q: Right here.

K: Yes, sir, right here. 		问：就在这里。

克：对，先生，就在这儿。
26:19 Q: Well, then can’t we all work together and lose our past conditioning of these words that you have been saying to us for all of these years and begin to act ensemble, in some form or other that’s new and creative? 问：好，那么，这么多年来你说的这些话对我们造成了制约， 我们能不能一起把它们都丢掉， 然后以各种新的、有创造性的方式开始合作？
26:41 K: Madame, we can’t work together. That is a fact. We can’t think together, we don’t seem to be able to do anything together, unless we are forced, unless there is a tremendous crisis, like war, then we all come together. If there is an earthquake, we are all involved in it. But remove the earthquakes, the great crises of war, we are back into our separate little selves, fighting each other. Right? This is so obvious. I saw a woman some years ago, who was English, aristocratic, and all the rest of it, during the war they all lived in the underground, you know, the tube, and she said, it was marvellous, ‘We were all together, we supported each other’. When the war was over, she went back to her castle and – finished! 克：夫人，我们无法一起工作。 那是事实。我们无法一起思考， 我们看来无法一起做任何事，除非被逼迫着， 除非发生了巨大的危机，然后我们会齐心协力。 如果发生了地震，我们全都身在其中。 可是如果没有地震，没有战争的巨大危机， 我们就又回到了隔离的、小小的自我当中，彼此争斗。 是不是？这非常明显。 一些年前，我见到过一个英国女人，她是贵族， 还有贵族的种种…，战争期间，她们全都住在 地下室，大家知道，地下铁道，她说， 那时候实在太美妙了，“我们是完全在一起的，我们互相帮助“。 可是战争一结束，她就回到她的城堡里去了——结束了！
27:59 Can we just look at this for a minute? When we say we are part of that, is it an idea or an actuality? idea, I mean by that, a concept, a picture, a conclusion. Or is it a fact, like having a toothache is a fact? 我们能不能花一分钟，把它审视一下。 在我们说我们是其中一部分的时候，它是一个观念，还是事实？ 观念，我指的是一个概念，一幅图景，一个结论。 还是说，它是事实，像牙疼一样是个事实？
28:32 Q: It’s both. 问：都是。
28:35 K: No? What is one to do? Right? Is it a fact to us that I am part of this society? 克：不是吗？你会怎么办？ 是吧？ 对我们来说，这是个事实，我是社会的一部分，是吗？
28:47 Q: I a m that society.

K: Oh, I am that society. Then what is happening out there to which I am contributing? Am I seeking my own security, my own experiences, involve d in my own problems, concerned with my own ambitions. Right? So each one is striving, for himself – right? – as society exists now. And probably that has been the historical process right from the beginning, each one struggling for himself. Right? And therefore each one opposed to another. Now, do we realise that? 		问：我就是那个社会。

克：哦，我是那个社会。 那么在我推波助澜的这个社会里，正在发生什么情况？ 我是在寻求我自己的安全，我自己的体验， 沉浸在我自己的问题里，忙于实现我自己的野心？ 对吧？ 于是每个人都在为自己奋斗——对吧？——就像现在这个社会。 很可能那个过程在历史上已经存在 从一开始每个人就在为自己争斗。 对吧？ 于是，人与人之间彼此对抗。 现在，我们认识到那一点了吗？

问：认识到了。
29:57 Q: Yes. 克：且慢！我要弄清楚该做什么，夫人，
30:00 Q: What else can we do, we are small, the society is big... 首先从眼前的问题开始，然后我们才能进行下去。
30:05 K: Wait! We’ll find out what to do, madame; first start from that which is very near, and then we can go on. Right? We are talking about our daily life. And our daily life apparently, or is, not only part of the society, but also we are encouraging this society by our activities. Right? Do we know this, do we say, ‘Yes, by Jove, it is so’. Then what shall I do as a human being, being part of this society, what shall I do, what is my responsibility? Take drugs? Grow a beard? Run off? What is my responsibility? Yours? You don’t answer. 对吧？ 我们说的是我们的日常生活。 而我们的日常生活显然，不仅是社会的一部分， 而且我们正在用我们的行为为这个社会推波助澜。 对吧？ 我们了解这个吗？我们会说：“天啊，是这么回事“吗？ 那么，作为一个人，我该怎么办？ 作为这个社会的一部分，我该怎么办，我的责任是什么？ 吸毒？ 留胡子？ 离家出走？ 我的责任是什么？ 你的责任？你们不回答。
31:19 Q: To do something about it. 问：对此去做些什么。
31:22 K: What? First, sir... 克：做什么呢？首先做什么，先生…
31:24 Q: First, to see. I see... 问：首先是看。我看…
31:26 K: I can only do something about it when I am clear in myself. Right? 克：只有当我清楚自己是什么样子，我才能去做些什么。 对吧？
31:45 Q: Is it not astonishing; if we are clear and logical about it, we can be excluded from the society. 问：要是我们对它的认识既清楚又符合逻辑，那会不会让人大吃一惊？ 我们会被排斥在社会之外的。
32:03 K: All right. So let’s find out how to be clear in oneself. How to be certain about things. Let’s find out if one can have security. Right? Both psychological and physical. So how does a mind which is confused, as most people’s are, how is that confusion to be wiped away so that there is clarity. Right? If there is clarity, from there I can act. Right? Is that clear?

Q: Yes. 		克：是这样的。 所以，咱们来弄明白怎样才能做到内心清明。 怎样才能心里有把握。 咱们来搞清楚一个人是否能够拥有安全。 好吗？ 在心理上，同时也在身体上安全。 那么一颗困惑的心，正如大多数人那样， 怎样才能扫去困惑，变得清楚明白呢？ 是吧？ 我要是清楚明白，我就可以由此行动了。 对吧？ 清楚了吗？

问：清楚了。
32:50 K: Now, how am I, a human being, to have clarity about politics, about work, about my relationship with my wife, husband, girl, all the rest of it, relationship to the world, how am I to be clear when I am so confused? Right? The gurus say one thing, the priests say something else, the economist says something else, the philosophers say something else – you follow? The analysts say something else – primordial pain, or whatever it is. So they are all shouting, shouting, writing, explaining. And I am caught in that, and I get more and more confused. I don’t know whom to take to be clear, who is right, who is wrong. Right? That is our position, isn’t it? No?

Q: Yes. 		克：那么，作为一个人，我怎么才能看清政治、工作， 看清我同我的妻子、丈夫、女友等等的关系？ 看清同世界的关系？在如此困惑的时候，我怎样才能内心清明？ 对吧？ 古鲁们这么说，牧师们那么说，经济学家 一套说辞，哲学家又一套说辞——大家理解吧？ 分析家是另一种说法，原发性疼痛，不管他是什么说法。 他们都在争吵，著述，诠释。 我陷在那里，感到越来越困惑。 我不知道，要想内心清明，我该听谁的，谁是对的，谁是错的？ 是吧？我们就是这个状态，不是吗？ 不是吗？

问：是的。
33:53 K: So I say to myself: I am confused, out with all these people. Right? 克：于是我对自己说，我感到困惑，我要离开所有这些人。 是吧？

问：那样你就孤独了。
34:04 Q: And then you become alone. 克：听着，我想要消除困惑。
34:16 K: Look, I want to clear up the confusion. Right? That confusion has been caused by all these people, each one saying different things. Right? So I am confused. So I say, please, I am not going to listen to any of you, I am going to see why I am confused. Let’s start from there. Right? 对吧？ 困惑是所有这些人造成的， 每个人都有一套不同的说法。对吧？ 所以我感到困惑。 所以我说，拜托，我谁的也不想听了。 我要去弄明白我为什么困惑。 咱们从那个地方开始。好吗？
34:42 Q: Yes.

K: Why am I confused? Why are you confused? 		问：好。

克：我为什么困惑？ 你为什么困惑？

问：（听不清）

克：不，紧盯住一件事，先生。
34:55 K: No, stick to one thing, sir. Why are you, as a human being, confused? 作为一个人，你为什么感到困惑？
35:04 Q: Because I accept. 问：因为我接受别人的看法。
35:06 K: No, look into yourself, madame. Don’t just throw out some word. Why am I confused? What is confusion? Let’s begin with that. What is confusion? 克：不，观察你的内心，夫人。 不要就是扔出几句话。 为什么我困惑？什么是困惑？ 咱们从那里开始讨论。什么是困惑？
35:22 Q: Contradictory. 问：矛盾。
35:24 K: You say confusion arises when there is contradiction, not only out there – right? – in the world, but also in me. The world is me, therefore there is in me contradiction. Now, please go slowly. What do we mean by contradiction? 克：你说有矛盾的时候会出现困惑。 不只有外部矛盾——对吧？——世界上的矛盾，还有内心的矛盾。 世界就是我，因此，我的心里存在矛盾。 那么请慢慢来。 我们说的矛盾是什么意思？
35:55 Q: Separation. 问：分歧。
35:57 K: Go into it, sir, look at it, take time. Why am I confused? You say because there is contradiction. I say, what do you mean by that word ‘contradiction’? To contradict, to say something opposite. Right? That is, I say something and do the opposite. Right? I think something and act contrary to what I think. That is one part of contradiction. I imitate because I am not sure about myself. Then there is a contradiction. I follow because I am uncertain. I conform, both psychologically and environmentally, because that has been my conditioning. So I realise contradiction means conformity, imitation, saying one thing and doing another, thinking one thing and quite the opposite – I believe in God, and I chop off everybody’s head. Right? So this is what we mean by contradiction – ‘contra dicere’, to say something opposite to what is. 克：去调查一下先生，把它观察一下，花点儿时间。 为什么我感到困惑？ 你说是因为有矛盾。 我说，你说的“矛盾”是什么意思？ 矛盾，说些违心的话。 是吧？ 就是说，我说一套，做一套，言行相悖。 是吧？ 我想着什么事情，我的行动却和想法截然相反。 那是矛盾的一部分。 因为我对自己没有把握，所以我模仿。 这里存在一种矛盾。 因为我不确定，所以我追随别人。 我既在外在上顺应环境，也在心理上顺应潮流， 因为那成了我的制约。 所以，我认识到矛盾意味着顺从、模仿， 说一套，做一套，心里想的和 做的截然相反——我信仰上帝，可是我会砍下每个人的脑袋。 是吧？ 这就是我们说的矛盾的含义， 说的话与事实相反。
37:56 Now, are we aware of this? Let us start from this: are we aware of this? In ourselves, we are contradicting all the time. Now wait a minute. If you are aware of it, then what shall we do? You understand my question? I am aware that I am contradictory: say one thing on the platform, go home and do quite the opposite. Personally I don’t – if I did, I would never appear on the platform. So I go do something quite different. And I say, why am I doing this – you understand? I say one thing and do quite the opposite – why? No, find out, madame, go into yourself, find out. Is it, I say one thing to please you, to make myself popular, to have a reputation of having immense knowledge, and go home, do everything contrary to that? Because I want to impress you, I want to show I am much bigger than you, I know much more than you, and go home and behave like a child. Now why do I do this? Not I – why do you do it? 现在我们意识到这种情况了吗？ 咱们从这个问题开始：我们意识到这种情况了吗？ 我们在心里总是矛盾的。 等一下。 如果你意识到了，那么我们该怎么办？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我意识到我是矛盾的：在台上说一套， 回到家后，我的行为却截然相反。 就个人而言，我不是那个样子，否则我绝不会出现在台上。 我会去做些完全不同的事情。 我说，为什么我这么做——大家理解吗？ 我言行相悖，为什么？ 不，夫人，弄清楚，调查一下你自己，弄明白。 我嘴上说的是一套，可是回到家里， 我的一举一动却相反的另一套，我是为了取悦你吗？ 为了讨人喜欢吗？为了博得知识渊博的声誉吗？ 因为我想让你佩服我，我想表现出我比你了不起， 我知道得比你多多了，可是一回到家，我却表现得跟小孩儿一样幼稚。 我为什么要这么做？ 不是我——你为什么这么做？
40:08 Q: Sir, how to become aware of my conditioning while speaking about my conditioning, is it possible without verbalising it. Because you are always saying, go into yourself, and I try to do that, and I seem to have a great need to speak and to try to discover myself while others are listening, and I am listening myself. Is this correct, or is this an illusion? 问：先生，提到我的制约，怎样才能意识到它？ 不用言语表达能行吗？ 因为你总是说，调查你自己，我也在尽力去做， 当存在倾听，当我在倾听自己的时候， 我好像非常需要讲出来，并努力去发现我自己。 这是正确的状态还是幻觉？
40:43 K: When I ask, why do I do it – please, listen for two minutes – am I looking for a cause? You understand my question? I say, why am I contradicting myself in my life, one thing and another. And so I say, when I ask the question why, my desire is to find a cause. Right? Please, listen for a few minutes. I’ve discovered the cause through analysis; and will that discovery of the cause finish the contradiction? You understand my question? I have discovered the cause why I contradict – because I am frightened, because I want to be popular, because I want to be well-regarded, I want public approval, and inwardly I do something else. The cause is, perhaps, that in myself I am uncertain. I depend on you, or something else, so in myself I am absolutely uncertain. So I say one thing and contradict myself. Right? Take it for a minute, madame, step by step, for god’s sake, you people are all so... And I discover the cause, and the cause is not going to finish the contradiction. Would you follow something? The cause and the effect are never the same, because the cause becomes the effect, and the effect becomes the cause. It is a chain. I wonder if you see that. So I find it is futile to find the cause. The fact is I am uncertain, and therefore there is a contradiction, wanting to be certain. Inwardly I am uncertain, and wanting to be certain, which is a contradiction. Right? So why am I uncertain? Uncertain about what? 克：在我问，为什么我这么做——请先听我讲两分钟—— 我是在寻找原因吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我说，为什么我一生中自相矛盾？ 因此，我说，在我问为什么的时候，我是渴望找到一个原因。 对吧？ 请再听我讲几分钟。 通过分析，我发现了原因， 可是，发现原因会结束矛盾吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我发现了我矛盾的原因——因为我害怕， 因为我想讨人喜欢，因为我想受人称赞， 我想得到众人的认可，于是我内心做着些别的事情。 原因可能是我心里没有把握。 我依赖你或别的什么东西，所以我内心毫无把握。 所以我言行相悖。 是这样吗？ 花一分钟时间，夫人，一步一步地，看在老天的份上， 你们这些人都太…我发现了原因， 而这个原因不会结束矛盾。 你们想弄清楚吗？ 原因和结果从来不会一成不变， 因为原因会成为结果，结果又会变成原因。 它是一个链条。 不知你们看到没有？ 因而我发现寻找原因是徒劳无益的。 事实是我没有把握， 因而存在矛盾，想要感到确定。 我内心里不确定， 又想要确定，这就是矛盾。 对吧？ 那么我为什么不确定？ 我对什么感到不确定呢？
44:05 Q: Have you not contradicted yourself? You just said, looking for a cause is running away. 问：你不是自相矛盾了吗？ 刚才你说寻找原因是在逃离。
44:24 K: The gentleman says, I have just contradicted myself, which is where? I’d like it to be pointed out. Don’t just say you have contradicted yourself. I’d like to find out where I have contradicted myself; it is so hopeless to talk to this generation! I am uncertain. 克：这位先生说，我刚才说的自相矛盾，矛盾在哪里呢？ 我希望能给我指出来。 不要就是说你讲的自相矛盾。 我想弄清楚我在哪个地方自相矛盾， 跟这一代人谈话实在太困难了——我没把握。
45:05 Q: Perhaps I may say something? 问：或许我可以说几句吗？
45:07 K: Delighted, sir.

Q: OK. I don’t know why I reacted to it, but I can’t explain. You said looking for a cause is running away from the fact, the fact of whatever you are looking at. 		克：当然好啊，先生。

问：好的。 我不知道我为什么对此做出反应， 你说寻找原因是逃离事实， 逃离你正在观察的不管是什么事实。

克：非常正确，先生。
45:38 K: Quite right, sir. Looking for a cause is running away from the actual. 寻找原因是逃离真实的情况。
45:43 Q: But then, the next word you say, is ‘why’, which is looking for a cause! 问：可是接下来，你说的词是“为什么”，这就是在寻找原因！
46:01 K: I have explained very carefully that I am not looking for a cause. 克：我已经非常仔细地解释过，我不是在寻找原因。
46:06 Q: But you said ‘why’.

K: I explained that, sir. I am not dumb! I know what he says. I know what you’re all saying. I purposely put that question, used that word ‘why’. When you use that word ‘why’, you are looking for a cause. Please, don’t nod your head, madame. 		问：可是你刚才说“为什么”。

克：我解释过了，先生。 我不傻！（笑声） 我明白他的意思。我明白大家的意思。 我有意用“为什么”提问。 你使用“为什么”这个词，就是在寻找原因。 别点头，夫人。
46:34 Q: Sir, if we are not looking for a cause, why are we in the tent? 问：先生，如果不寻找原因，我们干嘛要呆在这个帐篷里？
46:44 K: I explained, sir, when we ask the question why, we generally enquire into the cause. And I explained: the cause and the effect are never the same, because the cause brings about an effect, and the effect becomes the cause. So to enquire into that chain is useless. But when we use the word ‘why’, I am using it in a special way, which is I am enquiring, not seeking a cause. Right? See the difference, please, if you will be good enough. If you don’t like the word ‘why’, let us say: ‘How has this happened?’ 克：我解释过，先生，我们问为什么这个问题， 通常是询问其原因。 我解释了原因和结果从来不会一成不变，因为 原因造成了结果，结果又变成了原因。 所以，对这个链条进行询问毫无用处。 而我们说“为什么”的时候，我是以一种特殊的方式使用这个词的， 就是说，我是在问询，而不是在寻找原因。 对吧？ 这个有劳大家区分其中的不同。 要是大家不喜欢“为什么”这个词，咱们可以说“这是怎么回事？”
47:47 Q: Sir, is it possible to enquire verbally? I really would like an answer to this. I keep asking and you don’t answer, and I feel that it is because you want me to find my own answer. All I am really seeking is, is it possible to enquire into the problem, while expressing the problem? 问：先生，我可以通过语言来询问吗？ 我真的想就此得到一个回答。 我一直在问，可是你不回答我， 我感觉是因为你想要我发现我自己的答案。 我真正要弄明白的就是，是否可能 一边把问题表达出来，一边对问题进行询问？
48:11 K: No. First we must understand the usage of words verbally and then go behind. Sir, please don’t go off like this! You see, we have spent 45 minutes. We haven’t even touched and gone into the way of our daily life. We are again going off. So please hold on to this. Uncertain… what am I uncertain about? You, what are you uncertain about? Or, are you completely certain? 克：不能。 首先我们必须在字面上理解词的用法，然后理解词背后的含义。 先生，请不要这样偏离话题。 大家看，我们过去45分钟了。 我们甚至都没有触及和调查一下我们日常的生活方式。 我们又偏离话题了。 请大家紧盯这个话题。 你，对什么感到不确定？ 还是说，你是完全确定的？

问：我发现我在听很多人的意见，
49:06 Q: I find myself listening to many people, and this must bring confusion in myself. So I know that all I have to do is to listen to myself. But when I say, how can I listen to myself, I am making a resolve. I must listen to my parents, everybody else, and so there is my uncertainty – who shall I listen to? 这必然造成我内心的困惑。 所以，我知道我需要做的就是听我自己的。 可是，如果我说，我如何听我自己的，我就是在做一个决定。 我必须听父母的，听所有其他人的， 所以，我不确定的就是这个——我该听谁的？

克：你说的是，先生，
49:36 K: You are saying, are you, sir, that by enquiring into uncertainty you have found certainty? 通过对不确定性进行询问，你发现了确定性？
49:52 Q: No. He says who should he listen to, his parents say one thing, other people say other things, you say another thing. 问：不是的。 他说，他该听谁的，他父母这么说， 其他人那么说，您又有另一种说法。
50:02 K: That is what I said. The parents say one thing, you say something else, the philosophers say something else, the politicians – right? They are all saying something different, each one. Each guru is competing with the other guru, saying something entirely different. Now – must I go back to that? – this is brought about by the constant pressure of other people. Right? The pressure of the politician, the economist, the philosopher, the guru, the priest, the parent, the grandparents, and your own – right? So, please, proceed. What am I confused about? 克：我说的就是这个（笑） 父母这么说，你那么说， 哲学家这么讲，政客又那么讲——是吧？ 他们说法全不一样，每个人。 每个古鲁都在跟其他古鲁争斗， 讲些完全不同的东西。 哎——我得回去重说一遍么？ 这种情况是其他人不断施压造成的。 对吧？ 来自政客、经济学家、哲学家、 古鲁、牧师、父母、祖父祖母，还有你自己的压力——对吧？ 那么请大家继续思考。 我是对什么感到困惑？
50:57 Q: About the future. 问：对未来。
51:08 K: About the future. I am uncertain about the future, the future being what I have been, what I am now, what I might be. Right? That is the future. The future is physically uncertain, psychologically uncertain. So, mind is seeking certainty. Right? Being uncertain, it wants to be certain. Right? 克：对未来。 我对未来感到不确定，未来就是我曾经如何， 我现在如何，将来如何。 对吧？那就是未来。 身体在未来是不确定的，心理上也不确定。 于是心在寻找确定性。 是吧？ 因为不确定，所以想要确定。 对吧？

问：我们没有意识到我们现在是什么样子
51:58 Q: We are not aware of what we are in the moment, otherwise the question about the future wouldn’t have come, I think. 否则，我想，就不会提出这个未来的问题。
52:16 Q: There is no certainty in thought. 问：思想里没有确定性。
52:21 K: I wonder what is the point of this discussion. What is the point of our having a conversation, which we are not. We are saying it must be, it is so, it is not so. 克：这种讨论有什么用？ 我们这种对话有什么用？我们不是在对话。 我们是在说它必须如何，它是这样，它不是这样。

问：否则，现在我们就已经改变我们的生活方式了。
52:41 Q: We might have changed the way of living now. 克：我正在做这件事。

问：是的。
52:43 K: I am doing it.

Q: Yes. 		克：可是你们不想去做。
52:46 K: But you won’t do it. Somebody all the time interrupting according to his own way. We are not thinking together. Right? 总有人按着自己的想法打岔。 我们不是在一起思考。对吧？
52:59 Q: You asked, what are we uncertain about. And at that point I thought we were uncertain about different things, then the problem is not to ascertain what we are uncertain about but the fact of that, which I think arises from our unclearness about the contradictions. And if we look at it and see the contradiction, then the uncertainty would disappear. 问：你问过，我们对什么感到不确定。 对此，我觉得我们感到不确定的事情是不一样的 那么，问题就不是去弄清楚我们对什么感到不确定， 我觉得应该是 我们对矛盾认识不清这个事实。 如果我们观察它，看着这个矛盾， 那么不确定感就会消失。
53:34 Q: She says we should look at our uncertainty, and then it will disappear. 问：她说我们应该观察我们的不确定感，然后它会消失。
53:41 K: We are doing that, sir. I see it is impossible to have a conversation with anybody. So let’s begin this way: are we certain in our relationship with each other? Certain in one’s relationship to one’s husband, wife, girl, boy? I am asking you, please.

Q: No, no. 		克：我们正在做这个，先生。 我看不太可能跟谁谈话了。 那么咱们这样开始：在我们的关系当中，我们彼此间有确定感么？ 在你的关系里，你对你的丈夫、妻子、女朋友、男朋友有确定感吗？ 我是在问大家，请注意。

问：不，不确定。
54:11 Q: We are uncertain in our condition. 问：我们不确定我们的状态。
54:14 K: Yes, uncertain in our relationship with each other. 克：是的，在我们的关系里，我们彼此间没有确定感。
54:18 Q: And society. 问：还有社会。

克：我们彼此的关系造成了这个社会——不是吗？
54:27 K: Our relationship with each other creates the society – no? Of course, obviously. If I am against you, then I create a society which is divisive. It is so obvious this, we don’t have to explain. So what is our relationship with each other? You and the speaker. Let’s take that. Very simple. Or what is your relationship with your neighbour, with your wife or with your husband, or with your girl and so on? What is your relationship? I presume you all have a husband or a wife, haven’t you? 当然，这不用说。 如果我反对你，那么我就造成了一个分裂的社会。 显然如此，这个我们无需解释。 那么，我们之间是什么关系？ 你和讲话者之间。咱们以此为例。 非常简单。 或者你和邻居之间， 你和你的妻子、丈夫，或者女朋友等等之间是什么关系？ 你们的关系怎么样？ 我假定大家都是有丈夫或者妻子的，不是这样吗？
55:23 Q: And relationship.

Q: And children. 		问：还有关系。

问：还有孩子们。
55:25 K: Or a girl or a boy.

Q: And children. 		克：一个女孩或者一个男孩。

问：还有孩子们。
55:29 K: Sir, please answer this: what is your relationship with another? 克：先生，请回答这个问题：你跟他人的关系怎么样？
55:36 Q: Very poor. 问：非常差劲。

克：差劲？
55:44 K: Poor? What does that mean? 那是什么意思？
55:50 Q: You want to get something from the other. 问：你要从别人那里得到什么。
55:52 K: You want to exploit the other one, and he wants to exploit you, is that it? 克：你想剥削他，他也想剥削你，是这样吗？
56:03 Sir, look, madame, when you look at one’s relationship with another, is there any quality of certainty in it? Therefore in that there is no certainty, is there? You might think at the beginning of that relationship there is certainty, but gradually that certainty peters out. So in relationship there is no certainty. Why? Not the cause. I am asking the ‘why’ in the sense, how does this come about? Why is there uncertainty in our relationships? You don’t pursue, pursue that, please, stick to that one thing and work it out. 先生，看，夫人，观察你和别人的关系， 其中有任何确定的特征吗？ 因此，那里面没有确定性。 可能你在开始的时候认为那种关系里 有确定性，可是渐渐地那种确定性就消失了。 所以，在关系里没有确定性。 为什么？不是说原因？ 我问“为什么”，是指这是怎么产生的？ 为什么我们的关系里存在不确定性？ 你们不去追问，追问为什么… 请盯住一件事情，把它搞清楚。
57:09 Q: Lack of engagement.

K: Lack of communication? 		问：缺乏了解。

克：缺乏交流？
57:14 Q: Lack of engagement. 问：缺乏了解。

克：缺乏了解？
57:18 K: Lack of engagement? 问：我们是自私的。
57:21 Q: We are selfish. 问：我们不知道我们真正想要的是什么。
57:23 Q: We do not know what we really want. 克：（笑）我们该怎么做呢？
57:37 K: What shall we do? I can explain it. What is the point of it? Will you see the actuality of it? That is, sexually one is attracted to the opposite sex. Then gradually the fascination of sex, the excitement, all that, peters out. But there is an attachment formed. And the attachment causes fear. Right? And when there is fear, love has gone overboard. Right? So there is constant division between you and the other, constant division. You are asserting, and he is asserting. You dominate or he yields, or the other way round. So there is always this contradiction in our relationship, which is a daily fact. 我可以解释。可是那有什么用呢？ 你能看到它的实际情况吗？ 就是说，你在性上为异性所吸引。 然后，逐渐地性的吸引力、幸福感，所有那些东西都消失了。 可是，你们之间形成了一种依恋。 而依恋导致恐惧。 对吧？ 心怀恐惧，爱就走到了极端。 对吧？ 于是就存在不断的分裂，你和别人之间就会有不断的分裂。 你在维护着，他也在坚持着。 你占据了支配地位，他让了步，或者反过来。 所以，我们的关系里总存在着矛盾， 这是每天生活的事实。 这种情况是怎么造成的？
58:58 And how is it that this comes about? You understand? That is the next question. Is it because each one is concerned about himself. Right? Why are we… why is each one concerned about himself? How? You understand my question? What is the importance of being concerned about oneself? Is it because we are conditioned that way, we are educated that way, our whole environmental, social pressure is that way. You understand? So then, can one break away from that? Break away from the self-centred relationship. You are following? Can one end this self-centred relationship? Now, how is that to be done – right? Now, let’s stick to that. 大家理解吗？这是接下来的问题。 是因为每个人只关心他自己吗？ 是吗？ 为什么会这样？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 关心个人利益为什么这么重要？ 因为我们受到了那种制约，受到了那种教育， 我们的整个环境，社会的压力就是那样的，是这样吗？ 大家理解吗？ 那么，你能摆脱掉那种东西吗？ 摆脱自我中心的关系。 跟上了吗？ 你能结束这种自我中心的关系吗？ 那需要怎样去做？——是吧？ 咱们紧盯那个问题。
1:00:28 That is our daily life, and therefore... Why is one, one human being, so terribly self-concerned? Is it his nature? Is it his biological necessity? Because when one is primitive, one has to look after oneself, or one has to look after the few. And from that one may be so conditioned, one is carrying on. Right? Can that condition be broken, finished? Right? 那是我们的日常生活，因此… 为什么你，一个人，自我中心得这么厉害？ 他是天性如此吗？这是他的生理需要吗？ 因为如果你是个原始人，你必须得照顾自己， 或者你必须照顾几个人。 可能你从那儿受到了制约，并传承着这种制约。 是这样吗？ 你能打破、结束这种制约吗？ 能吗？

问：在我看来，似乎是动物的本能投射到了
1:01:25 Q: It seems to me that the animal instinct has been projected into the psychological field, and that has created the ‘me’. 心里领域，并造成了“我”。
1:01:44 K: Yes, sir, I know that. We’ve said that. We have said that before. Now, one has come to the point, that in our relationship, each one is concerned with himself. And this conditioning, can that be broken down, changed? 克：是的，先生，我明白。我们说过。 我们之前已经讲过。 现在我们说到，在我们的关系里 每个人只关心他自己。 这种制约能否被打破，能否得到转变？
1:02:10 Q: We have to understand it. 问：我们必须理解它。
1:02:14 K: No, madame, not understand it. All right, by understanding. What do you mean by understanding? 克：不，夫人，不是理解它。 好的，通过理解。 你说的通过理解是什么意思呢？
1:02:22 Q: See the whole thing. 问：看到整体。
1:02:25 K: I can’t see the whole because my mind is conditioned. That is just an idea. You don’t even listen… You are off on your own, you see. So I am conditioned because I have been brought up that way. Right? My parents, my society, my gods, my priests, all have said, ‘You first’, your success, your business, your happiness, your salvation – you. Now, can that conditioning be broken, changed? Just a minute, I want to go into it, please, follow this, step by step. 克：我看不到整体，因为我的心是受到制约的。 那不过是个观念。 所以，我是受到制约的，因为我是被那样培养成人的。 对吧？ 我的父母、社会、上帝、牧师，都说过：“把你放在第一位” 你的成功，你的生意，你的快乐，你的救赎——你。 那种制约能被打破并得到转变吗？ 等一下，我想调查一下。 请把这个一步一步地弄清楚。
1:03:13 Will you do it as I am talking? How do I know that I am conditioned, first? Is it that I am accepting the word and then imagining I am conditioned? You follow what I am saying? Or is it a fact? Is it an idea or is it a fact? You follow? This is so. You understand? You understand this, madame? 在我调查的同时，你们也去调查一下，好吗？ 首先，我怎样了解我受到制约了？ 我接受别人的话，然后想象我受到制约，是吗？ 大家清楚我讲的东西了吗？ 还是说它是事实？ 它是观念还是事实？ 跟上了吗？大家理解吗？ 这个你理解吗，夫人？

问：接受言辞，想象着我们自己受到的制约——这是正确的吗？
1:04:02 Q: Accepting the word and imaging our own conditioning – is that correct? 克：听我说，先生，我认为我受到了制约。
1:04:10 K: Look, sir, I think I am conditioned. I think. But I don’t think I have pain when somebody hits me. See the difference? When somebody hits me and there is pain, I don’t ‘think’ there is pain – there is pain. Right? Do I similarly see that I am conditioned? Please, sir, first listen to this. Or do I think I am conditioned? The thinking ‘I am conditioned’ is not a fact. But the conditioning is a fact. Right?

Q: Yes, sir. 		我认为。 可是，有人打我的时候，我不会是认为我疼。 看这里面的区别。 有人打我的时候，我是疼的。 我不“认为”存在疼痛，疼痛就在那儿了。 是吧？ 同样，我看到我受到制约了吗？ 注意，先生，首先听听这个。 还是我认为我受到了制约？ 我认为的“我受到制约”不是事实。 可是制约是一个事实。 对吧？

问：是的，先生。

克：我接着说。
1:05:17 K: I am going on. So I am only dealing with fact, not with the idea. The fact is I am conditioned. Now, go slow. In what manner do I look at the fact? That is very important. Right? You are following this? In what manner do I observe the fact? In observing the fact do I say, ‘I must get rid of it’? Or do I say, ‘I must conquer it, I must suppress it’, and so on? In what manner do I look at the fact? You have understood? How do you look at it? 于是我只和事实而不是观念打交道，。 事实是我受到了制约。 现在，慢慢来。 我是怎样看待这个事实的？ 这个非常重要。是不是？ 大家清楚这一点吗？ 我怎样观察这个事实？ 在观察事实的时候，我会说：“我必须摆脱它”吗？ 或者我会说：“我必须战胜它，我必须抑制它“之类的话吗？ 我是以什么方式看待这个事实的？ 大家理解吗？ 你怎样看待它。
1:06:20 Q: With fear. 问：带着恐惧。

问：我就是它，先生。
1:06:26 Q: I am it, sir. 克：这个事实——请跟上这个
1:06:33 K: Is the fact – please, follow this – is the fact different from me who is observing the fact? Have you understood my question? 和正在观察事实的我是不同的吗？ 大家理解我的问题了吗？
1:06:45 Q: No.

Q: Yes. 		问：没有。

问：理解了。
1:06:48 K: The fact is I am conditioned. And I am saying, how do I look at the fact, in what manner do I look at it? Do I look at it, the fact, as something different from me? Or that conditioning is me? Please, go slowly. Right? How do you look at it? Do you look at it as though you were separate from the fact, or you say, ‘Yes, that fact is me’? 克：事实是我受到了制约。 我说的是，我如何看待这个事实，以什么方式看待它？ 我是把它，这个事实，当作什么不同于我的东西来看的吗？ 还是说，制约就是我？ 请慢慢来。 好吗？ 你是怎样看待它的？ 你是事实与你好像是分开的那样地看待它的吗？ 还是你说道：“对，事实就是我”？
1:07:31 Q: Separate. 问：分开的。

问：一开始你就身在其中。
1:07:37 Q: At first, you are involved in it. 克：听我说，夫人，生气和你是不同的吗？
1:07:41 K: Look, madame, is anger different from you? Obviously not. So is your conditioning different from you? 显然不是。 那么你的制约和你不同吗？
1:07:57 Q: No.

K: That’s it. Now you are getting it. So you are now observing the fact as though it was you, you are the fact. Now wait a minute. So what happens? 		问：没有不同。

克：就是这样。 现在你们明白了。 所以，现在你观察这个事实，就像它就是你，你就是事实。 等一下。那么发生了什么？
1:08:21 Q: We observe the fact that we are living in the field of ideas only. 问：我们观察到我们只是生活在各种观念的领域里这个事实。
1:08:29 K: Sir, your minds are not trained. Your minds are vague, you know, moving all over the place. Here is a problem, look at it. That is, anger is you. You are not different from the anger. Wait, wait. When you are angry, you are that, then thought comes along and says, ‘I have been angry’. So thought separates anger from you. You understand? So similarly: you are conditioned, and that conditioning is you. Wait. What can you do if it is you? 克：先生，你们的心没受过训练… 你们心不在焉，你知道，心到处跑。 这里有一个问题，看看它吧。 就是，生气就是你。 你和生气并不是不同的。 等一下，等一下。 你生气时，你就是生气， 然后思想过来说：“我生气了“。 于是思想把你和生气分开。 大家理解吗？ 那么，同样的，你受到制约，制约就是你。 等一下。 要是它就是你，你能做什么？
1:09:27 Q: Nothing.

K: No, wait, watch. My god, you’re all so… The speaker’s skin is a little brown. Right? That’s brown. But when he says, ‘I must change it to something else because white people are better’, then I am in conflict. But when I say, ‘Yes, it is so’, what has happened to my mind? 		问：什么也做不了。

克：不，等一下，观察一下。 讲话者的皮肤略微有点儿棕色。 对吧？皮肤是棕色的。 可是，当他说：“我必须把它变成别的什么颜色， 因为白人更优秀”。那么我就处在冲突当中了。 而当我说：“对，它就是这样”的时候，我的心发生了什么情况？
1:10:07 Q: Thought has... 问：思想已经…
1:10:07 K: Sir, don’t jump into it yet, enquire. What has happened to the mind that has said before, ‘Anger is different from me’, but now the mind says, ‘That is silly, anger is me’. Now, similarly, the mind has said, ‘Conditioning is different from me’, and realises the conditioning is me. Right? So what has happened to the mind? 克：先生，不要马上跳到那儿去，调查一下。 这颗心发生了什么情况？原来他说“生气不同 于我”，而现在这颗心说：“那是愚蠢的想法，生气就是我”。 同样，这颗心说过：“制约和我是不一样的”， 现在他认识到制约就是我。 对吧？ 那么这颗心发生了什么情况？
1:10:45 Q: It is clear.

K: Oh, sir, please, don’t jump to things which you don’t see actually. Don’t repeat anything, don’t say anything that you yourself have not seen. 		问：心是清晰的。

克：哦，先生，请不要跳到你实际没有看到的东西上去。 不要重复，不要说任何 你没有亲自看到的东西。
1:10:59 Q: There is no longer conflict. Conflict is resolved. 问：没有冲突了。冲突消除了。
1:11:08 K: The mind now is not in contradiction. Right? That is all I am pointing out. It is no longer saying, ‘I must do something about it’. Get it?

Q: Yes. 		克：现在心里没有了矛盾。 对吧？我在指出的就是这个。 就不再说：“我得做点什么”了。 懂了吗？

问：懂了。
1:11:27 K: So the mind now is free from the idea, from the concept, from the conditioning that I must act upon it. Right? So the mind is now free to look. Are you following this? Just to look. What is that? The mind says, ‘I am conditioned’, not the mind is conditioned, but the whole thing is conditioned. So it says, ‘Now observe that conditioning’. What takes place when you observe? There is no observer, because the observer is not different from the thing observed, there is only observation. Right?

Q: Yes, sir. 		克：于是心现在摆脱了我必须对此采取行动的 观念、概念和制约。 对吧？ 这样，现在心就有了看的自由。 这一点大家清楚了吗？只是去看。 那是什么呢？ 心说道：“我受到了制约”， 不是受到制约的心，而是整体都受到了制约。 所以他说：“观察那个制约”。 在你观察的时候，发生了什么情况？ 不存在观察者，因为观察者 和被观察的事物并没有什么不同，存在的就只有观察。 对吧？

问：对，先生。
1:12:26 K: Are you following this? No, not verbally, actually. Then what takes place when you observe? Observe purely, not give it a distortion. Distortion takes place when you say, ‘I must change it’. Or, ‘I must suppress it, I must go beyond it’. All that has ended because you are merely observing the fact that the mind is conditioned. There is pure observation. Right? There is no effort made. Then what takes place? The thing that is observed purely undergoes a change. Right? You follow this? You won’t, unless you do it, you won’t. Unless you apply, do it, you will say, ‘I don’t see it’. 克：这个跟上了吗？不，不是口头上，而是实际上。 那么，在你观察的时候，发生了什么？ 纯粹地观察，不要扭曲它。 你要是说：“我必须改变它”，或者，“我必须抑制它， 我必须超越它“，那就会发生扭曲。 那一切都结束了，因为你只是在观察 心受到制约这个事实。 那是纯粹的观察。 对吧？ 其中没有努力。 那么发生了什么？ 被纯粹地观察着的事物发生了转变。 是吗？这个跟上了吗？ 除非你这样做一下，你是不会明白这个的。 如果你不用心，不去实践，你就会说：“我没看到”。
1:13:46 Look, under a microscope you can watch the cell. If you watch it carefully, without saying, ‘It is a cell, it must not be this, it is that’, you see then the cell undergoing change. But if you come to it with an idea, the thing is not moving. You understand? The moment you come to it fresh and looking through the microscope at the cell, the cell is itself moving, so the conditioning is changing – you get it? – if you observe purely. 在显微镜底下，你可以观察细胞。 如果你仔细地观察，不说：“它是一个细胞，它一定 不能这样，它是那样的“，你就会看到细胞在发生变化。 可是，如果你带着一个观念来处理它，事情就不会变化。 大家理解吗？ 一旦你焕然一新地去处理它，从显微镜里去观察 细胞，这个细胞自己就在运动，于是制约就在发生转变。 大家明白了吗？——如果你是纯粹地观察的话。
1:14:47 Now, to come back: I observe, one observes one’s relationship, which is in daily life, to observe it purely. Can you observe your relationship with your wife, husband, whatever it is, without the image, without the idea that it is my husband, my wife, and all the rest of it, without the remembrance of sex, and all the rest of that, just to observe your relationship with another? Will you do it? Or your attraction to the other is so strong that it is impossible to look. I see what is happening here: holding hands, hugging each other, all that is going on. So those people cannot obviously observe. So if you observe very closely, without the observer who is the thinker, and all the rest of it, the thing itself changes. My relationship with you, or with another, husband, wife, if I observe it quietly, without any pressure, direction, the thing itself changes, and out of that love is. You understand? Love is not the product of thought. 现在回来：我观察，你观察你的关系， 就是在日常生活里纯粹地观察它。 你能观察你和你的妻子、丈夫，不管是什么关系， 而不带有形象，不带着那是我的丈夫，我的妻子 等等的观念，不带着性和 其它种种记忆，就是观察你和别人的关系。 你愿意这么做吗？ 还是说，你对另一个人的强烈的爱慕让你无法去观察。 我看到这里的情况是：握手， 互相拥抱，这里的各种现象。 所以，那些人显然是无法观察的。 所以，要是你非常仔细地、没有观察者地去观察 谁是思想者等等，事情本身就会发生变化。 我和你或者另一个人，丈夫、妻子的关系， 如果我静静地、毫无压力地也不带目的地去观察， 事情本身就会发生转变，从那里产生的就是爱。 大家理解吗？ 爱不是思想的产物。
1:16:35 Q: What is wrong with holding hands, sir? 问：先生，握手有什么错？
1:16:37 K: Oh, for god’s sake! What is wrong with holding hands with another. You have such infantile minds. 克：哦，天啊！ 跟别人握手有什么不对。 你的头脑真幼稚。

问：先生，你在显微镜下看细胞的时候，细胞
1:16:55 Q: Sir, when you look at the cell under the microscope, the cell is changing, but the cell is changing even when you are not looking. 在变化，可是即使你没有在看，细胞也在变化。
1:17:03 K: Of course. Of course. We know that. You see what you have done, sir? You are not applying. You have gone off to the cell. You don’t say, ‘Look, I am going to apply this. I am going to watch this’. ‘I am going to watch my relationship with my wife’ – or husband. The fact is we are separate. He is ambitious, I am ambitious, he wants this, and all the rest – separate. I am watching this separation. I don’t want to change it, I don’t want to modify it, I don’t want to push it aside because I don’t know what’s going to happen. So I observe. Not I observe, there is observation. Right? Do it, sir. 克：当然。当然。 我们知道。 看看你刚才做了什么，先生？ 你没有用心。 你跑到细胞那里去了。 你不说： “听着，我要在这上面用用心，我要去观察一下”。 “我要去观察我和妻子的关系”——或者丈夫。 事实是我们没有关系。 他有他的野心，我有我的野心，他想这样，等等，大家各顾各的。 我观察着这种隔离的情况。 我不想去改变它。我不想去调整它。 我不想把它推到一边，因为我不知道会发生什么情况。 于是我就观察。 不是我观察，而是存在着观察。 对吧？实践一下，先生。
1:18:06 Q: Sir, the problem is when I want to observe, that is a thought too. 问：先生，问题是，我想观察，那也是一个思想。
1:18:15 K: No, sir, I have explained that, sir. I can’t go back to it, sir. 克：不，先生，我解释过那个了，先生。 我不能回去重讲了，先生。

问：可是那是我们大家的问题啊。

克：什么先生？
1:18:25 Q: But that is a problem for us.

K: What, sir? 		问：那是我们大家的问题。

克：问题是什么？
1:18:27 Q: That is a problem for us.

K: What is the problem? 		问：就是我们无法观察，我们不知道怎么做。
1:18:29 Q: That we can’t observe, we don’t know how to do it. 克：那么你就是没有听。

问：我听着呢，那就是问题。
1:18:32 K: I am showing it to you. You don’t… 克：先生，食物摆到了你的面前。
1:18:35 Q: We don’t live it. 你要么吃，要么不吃。
1:18:36 K: Then you are not listening. 如果你饿了，你就会吃。
1:18:39 Q: I am listening, that is the problem. 如果你不饿，你会说：“哼，那对我毫无意义”。
1:18:43 K: Sir, food is put before you. Either you eat it, or don’t eat it. If you are hungry, you will eat it. If you are not hungry, you will say, ‘Well, that doesn’t mean anything to me’. Are you hungry to find out a way of living, in daily life, without conflict? 你渴望发现一种日常生活里没有冲突的生活方式吗？

问：是啊。

克：我在指给你看。
1:19:10 Q: Yes. 有一种没有冲突的生活方式。
1:19:12 K: I am pointing it out to you. So there is a way of living in which there is no confusion. When the mind is able to observe without direction, without motive, which is the movement of thought – just to observe. Observe the roof of this tent, the height, just to observe it. The colour of your dress, not say, ‘I like it, I don’t like it, I wish I had it’, just to observe. In the same way, if you can observe your whole psychological movement, then the thing itself changes radically. You don’t have to practise anything, gurus – you throw all that aside. Right, sirs. 如果心能够不带目的， 也不带动机地——那是思想的运动——就是观察。 观察这个帐篷的篷顶，最高的地方，只是观察。 你的衣服的颜色，而不说 “我喜欢，我不喜欢，我希望拥有它”，只是观察。 如果你能以同样的方式观察你整个的心理运动， 那么事情自身就会发生根本的转变。 你无需练习任何东西，古鲁们，把那些东西都扔掉。 可以了吗，先生们？
1:20:24 Q: Thank you. 问：谢谢您。
1:20:26 Q: Thank you, sir. 问：谢谢您，先生。