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SA79D5 - 我们怎样才能带来一个美好的社会？
第五次公开讨论，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月29日



0:48 Krishnamurti: If I may, I would like to, the speaker would like to talk over with you a question which perhaps might be of vital interest – perhaps. Why is it – this is a question mark, not the cause – why is it that two people are not able to think together? You understand the question? They think together when they are frightened. Two people are frightened, they think about it together. Or when there is some kind of physical catastrophe, they forget their personal prejudices, judgements, hopes, their own problems, and face it together. And if there is some impending danger, they again come together in their thought, in their feelings. You must have noticed all this. Why is it when we have not catastrophes, physical dangers, or something threatening us, we are not able to come together and think the problem together? Is it that two people, if they like or have great affection for each other or love each other, then there is a possibility of thinking together? Have you... Isn’t that so? 克：请容许我，这个讲话者，跟大家探讨 一个可能是利害攸关的问题——可能是利害攸关的。 为什么——这是一个问号，不是问原因， 两个人不能一起思考，这是怎么回事？ 大家理解这个问题吗？ 他们在受到惊吓的时候会一起思考。 两个人感到害怕的时候，他们会对此一起思考。 或者，当发生了什么自然灾害的时候 他们就会忘掉他们个人的那些偏见、评判、 期望以及他们个人的问题，去共同面对灾难。 如果危险迫在眉睫， 他们在思想和情感上就又会走到一起。 这些大家一定都注意到了。 为什么在没有灾难、 没有自然灾害或者某些威胁的时候， 我们不能走到一起，一起思考问题呢？ 如果两个人是喜欢对方的，或者彼此怀有很深的感情， 或者彼此相爱，那么就有可能一起思考，是这样吗？ 大家…是这样吗？
3:30 Can we this morning spend a little time on this question? Perhaps this will help us to understand the confusion and the misery of our daily life. Because we have not been able, so far, in all these discussions and talks, to meet actually together. Is it that we don’t love each other? You know, this has been tried very often in various ways, to bring people together, round a belief, round a person, round an ideal, round a concept. You must have noticed this, this is so. But each person translates the concepts, the ideals, the persons, the authority according to his own inclination. Therefore the person, the authority, the principle – don’t bring them together, which you have seen, again. Why is this? How, in what manner does this happen? You understand my question? Because I think, if we can think together, we can then investigate more deeply into our personal lives, into our confusion, and face the world with all its monstrosities, with its horrendous degeneration, then, perhaps, we might investigate together how to bring about a good society, a good way of living. You have understood what I’m… Can we go into this? 我们今天上午在这个问题上花点时间好吗？ 或许这会帮助我们理解 我们日常生活中的困惑和痛苦。 因为到现在为止，在所有这些 讨论和谈话当中，我们实际上还没有走到一起来。 是因为我们之间没有爱吗？ 大家知道，人们曾经尝试过很多次，通过各种方式，把人们 团结在某个信仰、某个人、某个理想、某个概念的周围。 大家一定注意到了，情况就是这样。 可是每个人都根据他自己的倾向 去理解那些概念、那些理想、那些人和权威。 因此，这个人、权威和 信条并未把人们团结起来，这个我们也都看到了。 为什么会这样？ 这是怎么产生的？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 因为我认为，如果我们能够一起思考，我们就能更深入地 调查我们的个人生活和困惑，我们就能面对 这个充满了丑陋现象的、道德沦丧的世界， 然后，或许我们可以一起调查 如何创造一个美好的社会，一种美好的生活方式。
6:18 Can we think together, first? 首先，我们能一起思考吗？
6:25 Q: Sir, could we look at the differences between catastrophe, shared catastrophe and the shared belief? The differences between these two. 问（提问者）：先生，我们看一看灾难 共同的灾难和共同的信仰的区别，好吗？ 二者的区别。
6:37 K: Could we go into catastrophes and beliefs. When there is a war, we are all together; unless you are a conscientious objector, or a pacifist, then you have a terrible time: you are shot or sent to prison, but the vast 99 percent of the people say, ‘Hurrah, let’s all fight’. You know, all the rest of it. But a belief is much more subtle. You may believe in God, or in Jesus, or Christ, whatever it is, but each one translates that belief in his own way, in his own pattern, according to his own experience. And so there is always a division. Even if you follow somebody whose authority you accept, again there is division between people. You have seen this all over the world. 克（克里希那穆提）：我们调查一下灾难和信仰好吗？ 发生战争的时候，我们全都是在一起的， 除非你拒服兵役，或者你是和平主义者， 那你就倒霉了，你要么会被枪毙，要么会被关起来， 不过，99%的人会说：“好哇，咱们都上，打一仗吧。” 这些大家都是知道的。 可是，信仰就微妙多了。 你可能信上帝，或者耶稣，或者基督， 不管是什么，每个人却根据他自己的方式、 他自己的模式和他自己的经验加以解释。 所以，就总是存在分歧。 即使你追随什么人，承认他的权威， 即使这样，人们还是会存在分歧。 这种现象在全世界都可以见到。
7:56 So we are asking: is it possible to think together without authority, without a belief, without a crisis – the world is in a crisis, anyhow – but putting all that aside, can we, you and the speaker, think together? What we mean by thinking together, meet at the same point, meet at the same level, with the same intensity, which is not possible if you hold on to some belief, if you hold on to your own particular opinion, if you have certain experience, say, ‘That’s much better than anything else’. So can we, this morning, somehow put aside our personal beliefs, experiences, judgements, points of view, and meet together? 所以我们问的是：是否可能在没有权威、没有信仰，没有危机 的情况下一起思考——不管怎样，世界正处于危机当中， 是否可能把所有那些东西都放下，你和讲话者，我们能一起思考吗？ 我们说的一起思考，指的是对同一个议题， 在相同的层面，带着同样的热情走到一起， 但如果你坚持什么信仰， 如果你坚持你的那个意见，如果你有 某些经验，你说：“那个比别的都强多了”，那我们就不可能共同思考。 所以，今天上午，不管怎么着，我们可不可以放下我们个人的信仰 经验、评判、观点，走到一起来呢？
9:40 Q: Doesn’t it imply the same openness on both sides? 问：那意思不就是双方都同样的坦诚吗？
9:44 K: No, sir, it’s not. Yes. I wonder in what way you are using the word ‘open’? Because that is a rather difficult word. I think I am open but I am really closed inside. So can I, can you and I put aside our particular point of view, our particular opinion, our experience? I met the other day a man who said, ‘You will solve all these problems if you are a vegetarian’ – you understand? All your problems will be solved. And you could not convince him. He was absolutely hooked on it – to use a modern word. And most of us are like that, only it isn’t vegetarianism, bananas, or something else, but our own deep conclusions which we have come to, for various reasons. Can we let all that, at least this morning, set aside and meet together? You understand my question? Can we do it? 克：不，先生，不是…对。 不知你说的“坦诚”这个词是指什么？ 因为这个词很难把握。 我认为我是坦诚的，可是我的内心实际上是封闭的。 那么，你我能把我们那些观点、 那些意见和经验都放下吗？ 有一天我遇到一个人，他说：“吃素， 就能解决所有的问题”——大家理解吗？ 所有问题都迎刃而解。 你无法说服他。 他对那个东西上了瘾（hooked）——用个时髦的说法。（笑声） 可是，我们大多数人也有那种偏执，只不过不是素食主义， 香蕉什么的，而是由于各种原因， 对我们自己的结论深信不疑。 我们能，至少在今天上午，把那些东西 都放下，走到一起来吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？我们可以这么做吗？

问：咱们试一试吧。

克：不是试，而是实践！
11:32 Q: Let us try.

K: Not try, do it! When you try, you can’t do anything. I don’t say, ‘I will try to climb the mountain’, I climb the mountain. So can we, this morning, go into this question: is it possible without any pressure, without any kind of persuasion, without any reward or punishment, say, ‘Look, let’s come together and think about it’ – can we do it? Please! Because if we can, then together we can investigate our own personal problems, our own personal lives, together. But if you withhold, and others examine, you are not part of it. You understand? Can we do this? 		你要是试，你什么也干不了。 我不说：“我要试着登山”，我登山。 所以，今天上午，我们可不可以调查一下这个问题， 有没有可能在没有任何压力，没有任何劝说， 没有任何奖励或惩罚的情况下，说： “喂，咱们到一起来，思考一下这个问题”——可以吗？ 来！ 因为，如果我们能，那么我们就可以一起调查一下 我们个人的那些问题，我们个人的生活，一起调查。 可是，如果你拒绝，而其他人去调查，你就没有参与进来。 大家明白吗？我们可以这么做吗？
12:52 Which is, would it be possible to talk over together – together – whether it is possible to bring about a good society. The intellectuals throughout the world have given up that idea that it is hopeless. I don’t know if you are aware of it. Nobody talks about a good society any more. Right? They are talking about existentialism, new kinds of philosophy, go back to the Bible, the new gods, and all the rest of it. Nobody, as far as one knows, is concerned with bringing about a good society, in which we can live happily, without fear, without terror, without all the horrible things that are going on in the world. Can we do this, this morning? not a good society in the future, then the future would be an ideal. Right? Then we will discuss endlessly which is the better ideal. But whereas, if we could investigate together whether human beings – you and the others – can we live a good life, not in the future, now? You understand my question? Please give… this is very important because around us – morally, physically, intellectually – there is disintegration. You must have observed this. And any serious person, being concerned with all this, he must demand, not only of himself but of others, whether it is possible to lead a good life and therefore bring about a good society. Vous avez compris? You have understood? 就是有没有可能一起探讨一下， 一起探讨，是否可能创造一个美好的社会。 全世界的知识分子已经放弃这个观念了， 认为它毫无希望了。 不知大家意识到这个现象没有？ 谁都不再谈论美好社会了。 是这样吧？ 他们在谈论存在主义，各种新哲学， 重拾圣经，新的上帝，等等。 据我所知，没有人对创造一个美好的社会 感兴趣，一个可以让我们快乐生活的社会，没有恐惧，没有恐怖， 也没有任何世界上正在发生的那些骇人听闻的事件。 我们可以讨论这个话题吗，今天上午？ 不是未来的美好社会，那样的话，未来就成了理想了。 对吧？ 然后，我们就会没完没了地讨论哪个理想更好。 然而，如果我们一起去探究一下人类， 你和其他人，是否可以过上美好的生活，不是等到将来，而是现在？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 在地理上、心智上，一切都在分崩离析。 大家一定注意到了。 任何一个人，如果他是关心这一切的， 他一定不仅会问他自己，他还会问其他的人，是否 可能过一种美好的生活，从而创造一个美好的社会。 Vous avez compris?（法语）大家理解了吗？
15:53 Q: Yes.

K: Now, let’s begin. 		问：理解了。

克：那咱们开始吧。
15:56 Q: What means a good life or a good society? 问：美好的生活或者美好的社会是什么意思？
16:03 K: We’re going… you see, now you have already gone away. We will find out what is the good life if we are able to think together. Right? If I define or describe what is a good life, then you will disagree and I will disagree, or somebody else disagrees, or say, ‘That is not good enough, we must add a little more to it’. And we shall be wandering off. That’s simple. 克：如果我们能够一起思考，我们就会弄明白什么是美好生活。 对吧？ 我要是去定义或者描述美好生活，你就会不同意， 我就会不同意，或者其他什么人就会不同意，或者说道： “那还不够好，我们得再补充一下。” 然后我们就偏离了主题。这很简单。

问：分享你的整个存在，而不是你的想法。
16:48 Q: To share your being and not your thinking. 克：分享你的整个存在，而不是你的想法。——你看我们…（笑）
17:05 K: To share your being, not your thinking – you see, we are... 问：先生，我们观察一下是什么妨碍了我们过上美好生活的，好吗？
17:13 Q: Could we, sir, look at the obstacles to leading a good life? 克：我们会谈到的，先生。
17:20 K: We will come to that, sir. I wish I hadn’t mentioned the good life, I am sorry! Or a good society. Let’s leave that for the moment. Let’s find out whether we can think together. Which is, the speaker is not persuading you to think in any particular direction, he is not stimulating you to think in a certain direction, or coercing you, influencing you, stimulating you, then we can’t think together. Whereas, if you and I see the necessity, the absolute necessity of a group of people, or a set of people, thinking together. That is, thinking about something – you understand? Thinking about – God, what is good, what is bad, whether it is possible to create a good society or… – thinking about is not thinking together. You see the difference? I wonder if you see this. Thinking about involves opinions, evaluation, because you might think about it, and others will say, ‘It is not quite like that’, so there will be divergence of opinions and points of view, if you are thinking about something. But we are not thinking about something but thinking together. I wonder if you see the difference? 真希望我没提到美好生活，对不起！（笑声） 或者美好社会。咱们先把它放一放。 咱们来看看我们能否一起思考。 讲话者不是在劝你沿着 某个方向去思考，他也不是在激励你 按着什么路线去思考，或者胁迫你，影响你， 激励你，那样的话，我们是无法一起思考的。 而是你我如果看到了，对于一群人或者一批人， 有必要一起思考，而且那是完全必要的。 就是说，针对什么进行思考——大家理解吗？ 针对——上帝，什么是好，什么是坏，是否可能，进行思考， 大家看到这个区别了吗？我不知道大家看到了没有？ 针对性的思考里包含着意见、评价， 因为你也许对它思考过，而其他人会说： “不完全是那么回事的”，于是，如果你 对什么事情进行思考，就会有意见和观点的分歧。 我们不是针对什么去思考，而是一起思考。 不知大家看没看到这个区别？
19:40 Q: We don’t see the urgent necessity of this. The question is, why?

K: No, I know why. Because we are not interested. Don’t even… Sir, look at it carefully. Is this point clear? To think about something brings about divisions of opinion. Right? If you think about God, think about it, then you will think your way, and I will think my way, and another will think his way. Right? And we shall be tearing at each other with our own judgements, opinions, conclusions. But if we could think together, not about something but the see the necessity of thinking together. Is this difficult? 		问：我们没有看到这一点的紧迫性和必要性。 问题是，为什么？

克：不，我知道为什么。 这一点清楚了吗？ 针对什么去思考导致了意见的分歧。 是吧？ 如果你对上帝进行思考，考虑它，你就会以你的方式思考， 而我会用我的方式，他会用他的方式。 对吧？ 我们就会用我们自己的评判、意见和结论把对方 打得鼻青脸肿。 可是如果我们可以一起思考，不是针对什么， 而是看到一起思考的必要性。 这有困难吗？

问：有。
20:46 Q: Yes.

Q: Yes. 		问：有的。
20:48 K: Am I putting it all right? Or would you like to put it differently? 克：我这样讲可以吗？ 还是我换一种说法？
20:53 Q: Put it differently, please.

K: Differently. 		问：请换一个说法吧。

克：换一种说法（笑）

问：是一起调查吗？
21:03 Q: Is it investigating together? 克：在一起调查之前，你必须得一起思考。
21:10 K: Before you investigate together you must think together. 问：思考真是个障碍。
21:15 Q: Thinking is really the barrier. It’s the word ‘thinking’ that seems to be coming to the fore, that’s the barrier. 正是“思考”这个词似乎来到了前面，这就是障碍。
22:06 K: Look here, sir, if you and the speaker loved each other – loved in quotes – we would be thinking together, wouldn’t we? No? What do you say? 克：听我说先生，你和讲话者要是爱对方的话， 爱是加了引号的——我们就是在一起思考，是不是？ 不是吗？你怎么看？

问：问题在于，先生，我们之间并没有爱。
22:31 Q: The problem, sir, is that we don’t love each other. 克：是的，先生。
22:33 K: Yes, sir. Just a minute, sir, please, let us consider this. I want, the speaker wants to think with you. He says, if I could think with you, the thinking is common. But if you and I were thinking together about something, it is not common. You understand? This is clear, isn’t it? 请等一下，先生，咱们仔细考虑一下这个。 我，讲话者想要和你一起思考。 他说道，如果我可以和你一起思考，思考就是共同的思考。 可是，如果你和我针对什么去思考，就不是共同的思考了。 你理解吗？这一点很清楚，是不是？
23:17 Q: This is clear. But... 问：这一点清楚了。 可是（意大利语）不带有主体、客体去思考，可能做到吗？
23:33 K: Our friend says: is it possible to think without the object and the subject. Which means, can you think without those two? Of course you can. You are missing it. You see, how difficult it is to be able to feel the common necessity of being together, to act together. Right? Won’t somebody help me? 克：我们的朋友说： 不带有主体、客体去思考，可能做到吗？ 就是说你能否不带着这两样东西去思考？ 当然能。你没明白。 你看，能够感觉到这一点是多么的困难： 我们需要融为一体、共同行动，这是我们共同的需要。 是不是？ 谁来帮帮我， 好吗？

问：先生，你我一起思考的时候，这个思想属于谁
24:22 Q: Sir, when you and I think together, it doesn't matter whose thought it is, we both are enjoying – the thought comes first, it doesn’t matter if it is my thought or your thought – is that it? 无关紧要，我们都享有这个思想——思想先产生， 不管是我的思想还是你的思想——是这样吗？
24:46 K: Would you kindly learn – learn – what it means to think together – right? Learn. We have discussed about listening, the art of listening, the art of seeing, the art of learning. And now we are going to learn together about the art of thinking together. Right? 克：劳驾去学习一下， 学习一下一起思考是什么意思——好吗？ 学习。 我们讨论过听， 听的艺术，看的艺术，学习的艺术。 现在我们来学习一下一起思考的艺术。
25:18 Q: Yes.

K: Could we do that? At least learn – not object, not project. You don’t know what it is to think together, so we are having a class in a school, and the speaker happens to be the teacher. And he says, please, you’ve come there without knowing what it means, you are going to learn because you are curious, you want to find out what the speaker, the teacher has to say, so you say, ‘Please, I am prepared to learn’ – right? Are you?

Q: Yes. 		好吗？

问：好。

克：我们学习一下好吗？ 至少学习不是反对，不是推想… 大家不明白什么是一起思考，那咱们现在正在学校里 （笑）上课，讲话者碰巧是那个老师。 他说，请注意，你们来这儿，你们不知道它是什么意思， 你们准备学习，是因为好奇， 是因为你们要弄明白这个讲话者，这个老师说的是什么， 所以你们说：“的确，我准备学一学”——对吧？ 你们是这样吗？

问：是的。
26:19 Q: Prepared to...

K: Wait, wait. Keep it to that, at that very, very simple level. If I happen to be a professor of biology, and you didn’t know anything about biology, you would come fresh, curious, perhaps bored, but you want to learn, because if you learn, you will pass exam, get a job, and so on. So you are forced to listen. Right? But here we are not forcing you, we are together trying to find out what it means to think together. And the speaker unfortunately is the professor, and you are the students. Are we in that relationship? Which is, the professor is not authoritarian, he wants to teach, and you are the students, about physics, mathematics, whatever it is. So you don’t know, but you are going to learn. Right? 		问：我们准备…

克：等等。 咱们把这种学习维持在这个非常非常简单的层面上。 如果我恰好是生物学教授，你们对生物一无所知的话， 你们就像一张白纸，怀着好奇或者厌烦的心理，可是你 是为了通过考试，找到工作等等而学习的。 那么你就是被逼迫着来听讲的。对吧？ 而在这里，我们没有逼迫你，我们是一起试图 弄明白一起思考是什么意思。 而讲话者很不幸地就是这个教授（笑）， 你们就是这些学生。 我们是那种关系吗？ 就是说，这个教授不是权威，他要教学， 你们是学生，学物理，学数学，不管学什么。 所以，你不明白，但是你准备学。 对吧？
27:43 So let’s start from that. You don’t know, so you can’t say, what do you mean by that, what do you mean by this, is it so, why, because you don’t know biology – right? So you are prepared to listen. Right? So we are in that position, are we? 咱们从那个状态开始吧。 你不明白，所以你不能说，你那么说是什么意思，这么说 是什么意思，是这么回事么，为什么，因为你不懂生物——是吧？ 所以你准备去听讲。 对吧？ 所以，我们是那样一个状态，是不是？

问：是的。

问：是的，请继续讲。
28:04 Q: Yes. 克：不，不，注意，注意。不要假设是这样，不要假装这样。
28:06 Q: Yes, please go on. 不要戴上面具。我们是那个状态。
28:06 K: No, no, please, please. Don’t assume it, don’t pretend. Don’t put on a mask. We are in that position. If we are in that position, then the professor says: do you know anything about thinking? The western thinking, and the oriental thinking: the western thinking conditioned, pursuing technology, and the eastern thought doesn’t know what it is pursuing. Right? There is the western thinking and the eastern thinking. The world has been divided that way. Right? You are learning. And he said that division is wrong, there is only thinking, which is neither East nor West. Thinking in the West has pursued a certain line. In the East, including, mainly in India, therefore spreading over Asia, it has pursued a different direction, but the source of the river is the same, taking two branches, which is thinking. Right? Is that clear?

Q: Yes, sir. Yes. 		如果我们是那个状态，那么教授说道， 你们了解思考吗？ 西方的思考和东方的思考： 西方的思考是受到制约的，它追求技术， 东方的思想不知道它在追求什么。 是吧？ 存在着西方的思考和东方的思考。 世界就这样分裂了。 对吧？你们正在学习。 他说道，那种划分是错误的，存在的只有思考， 既不是东方的，也不是西方的。 在西方，思想沿着某个方向发展。 在东方，包括印度，而且主要在印度，进而传播到亚洲， 思想沿着不同的方向发展，但是河流的源头 是一样的，它们是思想分出的两个支流。 是吧？那个清楚了吗？

问：是的，先生，清楚了。
30:15 K: My lord. Right? And you are western, and the speaker is neither eastern nor western. That is very important. He belongs neither to the West, nor to the East. So he is concerned only with the capacity and the energy and the vitality of thinking. Right? So, he says, how is it, in what manner, does your thinking differ from the other’s thinking? Even in the western world, your thinking is apparently different from your fellow western being. Right? You are following this – right? 克：天啊（笑）。对吧？ 你们是西方人，讲话者既不是东方人也不是西方人。 这一点很重要。 他不属于西方，也不属于东方。 所以，他关心的只是思考的能力、 思考的力量和活力。 对吧？ 所以，他说，你的思考和别人的思考是如何 或者说是以什么方式表现出不同来的？ 即便是在西方世界，你的思考 跟你西方的同胞也有着明显的不同。 是吧？ 大家理解这一点吗？——是这样吧？
31:21 Now, he asks a question, which you must answer: how has this come? You understand? Let me put it differently. The western technology, western outlook, western culture, western philosophy, western religion, is based essentially on the Greek. They are the originators of the West. Right? Democracy, analysis, science, philosophy, the dialogues of Plato, and so on, so on. Greece was the origin of the West. Right? There is no question, you don’t have to doubt this. I am a professor, I know! I am glad we can laugh. And Greece has said, measurement is the beginning of technology. Right? That is, thought is measurement. Right? You are following this? If you don’t understand it, the professor will explain. So thought has become extraordinarily important because on that all architecture, science, mathematics, the whole technological development has come from the idea of measurement. Without measurement you can’t do anything. Right? You can’t build a bridge, you can’t build a boat, submarine, and so on, so on, so on. Right? You are taking notes! 现在他问一个你们必须回答的问题：这种情况是怎么出现的？ 大家明白吗？我换个说法吧。 从根本上讲，西方的技术、思想观念、 文化、哲学和宗教来源于希腊。 他们是西方思想的开创者。 对吧？ 民主、分析、科学、哲学、 柏拉图的对话，等等、等等。 希腊是西方的起源。 是吧？ 这一点没有问题，不必怀疑。 我是教授，我懂！（笑声） 我们能笑起来，这让我感到高兴。 希腊人说过，技术始于度量。 对吧？ 就是说，思想是度量。 对吧？这个跟上了吗？ 如果大家不理解，这个教授会解释的。 于是思想变得极其重要，因为 所有的建筑、科学、数学，全部 技术的发展都来自于度量的观念。 没有度量，你什么都做不了。 对吧？ 你无法架设桥梁， 无法造船，造潜水艇，等等，等等。 对吧？你们在记笔记！（笑）
33:50 And the East has said, measurement is necessary, but through measurement you can’t find the immeasurable – you are following all this? So they said, thought, though it is necessary, is bound by time, the past, the present and the future, which is time, and that process of thinking will never find that which is inexhaustible, immeasurable, timeless. Right? 而东方人说过，度量是必要的，但是你无法 通过度量来发现那浩瀚无边的事物——这些大家都跟上了吗？ 所以他们说，思想，尽管是必要的，却受到时间、过去、 现在和未来，也就是时间的限制，而思考的过程 永远也无法发现那浩瀚无尽的、永恒的事物。 是吧？
34:44 So these are the two movements in the world – you are following all this? Or you are getting bored? Because you are going to have an examination at the end of it! 所以，世界上有这样两种思想运动——这些大家都清楚吧？ 还是大家感到厌烦了？（笑声） 因为最后是要对你们进行一次测验的！

问：教授，我问个问题好吗？
35:08 Q: Professor, may I ask a question?

K: Delighted. 		克：（笑）太可以了。
35:12 Q: My part as a student is to say, ‘Tell me what you know’. 问：作为一个学生，我想说的是：“请把你知道的东西告诉我”。
35:31 K: I am telling you what I know. 克：我是在把我知道的讲给你的呀。
35:33 Q: My part in the teacher-pupil relationship is to ask, tell me what you know. It is very simple. My question is: does it happen that you keep something back? Are there secrets, or are you, as a person, totally available? 问：作为师生关系中的学生，我想请你把你的东西都讲出来。 很简单，我的问题就是… 你会不会是有所保留？ 有没有什么秘密，或者作为一个人，你是完全坦诚的吗？
36:06 K: What?! 克：什么？！

问：作为老师，你是不是有所保留？
36:12 Q: Are you, as a teacher, keeping something back? 克；不，我没有。
36:15 K: No, I am not. I am a professor of mathematics. I am not keeping anything back. 我是数学教授。 我毫无保留。
36:26 Q: We are now talking about life, sir, not mathematics. 问：我们现在谈的是人生，先生，不是数学…
36:30 K: What is he talking about? 克：他在讲些什么？
36:33 Q: He says we are talking about life, not mathematics. 问：他说我们是在讨论人生，不是数学。 如果你是教授，请把你知道的告诉我。
36:55 K: I am telling you, sir. I am telling you, sir. 克：我在告诉你，先生。我在告诉你，先生。
37:03 Q: May I ask a question? Does it happen that you are keeping something to yourself, hold back, keeping it back? 问：我问个问题好吗？ 会不会是你保留着一些自己的东西， 没有把它拿出来？
37:13 K: Are you keeping something back? 克：你有所保留？
37:15 Q: Does it happen? And are you totally available? 问：有没有？你完全坦诚吗？
37:27 K: If I am not keeping anything back, am I available. For what? 克：我是否有所保留，我坦诚吗？ 指哪方面呢？
37:33 Q: Do you keep any secret? 问：你隐瞒什么秘密没有？
37:36 K: Sir, look, I have just told you, I am not... 克：听我说，先生，我刚告诉过你，我没有…
37:42 Q: Now you’re really acting, sir. I feel you are acting, you are not… 问：请你坐下好吗。
37:47 Q: Would you please sit down. 克：我不是在演戏，不是在表演，我没有隐瞒任何秘密。
37:51 K: I am not acting, I am not performing, I am not keeping any secret. 问：从未有过？
37:58 Q: Never? 克：当然没有，我说过，我没有任何秘密。
38:03 K: Of course not, I said I have no secrets. It is not never, or now. I have no secrets. 不是以前没有，或者现在没有。我没有秘密。
38:10 Q: Why do you have to go on and on about the limitations of thought? If the starting point is otherness, then why don’t you talk about the otherness? 问：为什么你没完没了地谈思想的局限？ 如果讨论的出发点是他者（otherness）， 那么 为什么你不讨论他者呢？
38:29 K: Ah, I see what you are trying to... The gentleman has read something which I wrote. And he wants me to talk about that instead of about thought. Perhaps we can talk about that at the end of the talk, at the end of this, which doesn’t mean I am avoiding, which doesn’t mean I am keeping it secret. You cannot possibly talk about the otherness. You cannot, if you have read that book. If you haven’t read, so much the better! 克：啊，我明白了，你是在… 这位先生读过我写的什么东西！（笑声） 他想让我谈那个而不是思想。 或许我们可以在谈话的最后，在这次谈话结束时 讲到那个问题，我不是在回避它， 也不是在隐瞒它。 你是无法讨论他者的。 你讨论不了，要是你读过那本书的话。 要是你没读过，那再好不过了。
39:25 Q: Then you are keeping something back. 问：那你就是有所保留了。
39:26 K: Sir, please sir, I have explained to you very carefully, I am not keeping anything back. I am approachable as you say, and so on. You see, this is what happens. 克：先生，拜托先生，我非常仔细地跟你解释过了， 我毫无保留。 如你所说，我是完全坦诚的。 你看，事情就是这样。 哎！我们给故意地转移了注意力，
39:54 Now, we have been distracted, purposely, perhaps rightly, but let’s come back. So there are these two movements have taken place in the world. The western movement is gradually conquering the world: technology, measurement, precise thinking, and so on, so on. And do our thoughts measure equally? You understand my question? No, you don’t. The professor says, why is it, in what manner, has this division between people taken place – in their thinking? Is it education – you follow? Is it one group of people go from public school to college, to university and a good job, and therefore their thinking is different from the man who has not been educated so well, who labours, and there is the man who, educated, puts himself into the business world, and there is the man who is a scientist, with technology, and all that. Is that the origin of this division? You understand? You follow? The man who thinks entirely differently if he is educated to become a military, or the man who has been educated through a seminar to become a priest, his thinking is different from the businessman, from the scientist, and so on, so on, so on. Is this the origin of this breaking up of thinking? You understand? 可能也是正当的，咱们回过头来吧。 于是，在世界上发生了这样两种运动。 西方的思想运动逐渐统治了世界：技术、 度量、精确思维，等等。 我们的思想是以同样的方式进行度量的吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 不，大家没理解。 这个教授说，为什么会出现 人与人之间的这种分歧？他们思想中的这种分歧是怎么产生的？ 是因为教育吗？——跟上了吗？ 有一群人从公立学校毕业， 上大学，找到好工作，因而他们的思想与 一个没有受到这么好教育的体力劳动者是不一样的， 是这样吗？而受过教育的人， 有的投身商界，有的 当科学家，从事科技工作，等等。 那是这种分歧的根源吗？ 你们理解吗？你们跟上了吗？ 如果一个人受到训练，成了一名军人， 他的思想就是完全不同的，或者，通过培训班 当上牧师的人，他的思想跟商人， 科学家也不一样，凡此种种，不胜枚举。 这是思想的这种分裂的根源吗？ 大家理解吗？

问：你是想说，在这个世界上，
42:27 Q: You want to say that in this world every one of us has another kind of measurement? 我们每个人都有一种不同的度量方式？
42:31 K: Yes, partly. So I say is that the reason why you and the professor can’t think together: because you are trained to think in one way – business, scientist, philosopher, or technician – and therefore we are all thinking differently. But the professor says, please, let us think together, not according to your way, or my way, or the scientist’s way, but together. 克：是的，部分是这样。 所以我说，你和这个教授无法一起思考，是那个原因吗？ 你受到训练，按照一种方式去思考，商人、科学家、 哲学家或者技术人员，于是我们全都在用不同的方式进行着思考。 可是，这位教授说道，来，咱们一起思考吧， 不是按照你的方式，或者我的方式，或者科学家的方式，而是一起思考。

问：那就意味着 我们全都得重新接受完全一样的教育。
43:28 Q: That would imply that we all have to be re-educated in exactly the same way. 克：不！不，先生。
43:33 K: No! No, sir. Suppose the professor has been educated in mathematics, and you come along and say, let us think together. It doesn’t mean I drop my mathematics, I put it aside and see if I can think with you. Thinking together does not mean uniformity. Right? Madame, can’t you hear that train? 假设这个教授接受过数学教育， 你走上前来，说，咱们一起思考吧。 这并不是要我放弃数学， 我把它放在一边，看看我能否和你一起思考。 一起思考并非整齐划一。 对吧？

问：（听不见）（火车声）

克：夫人，您没听见火车声吗？（笑声）
44:32 What were you saying? 您刚才说的是什么？
44:33 Q: It does seem that professional differences do make it difficult for people to communicate but it is much more their deep attitude to life which prevents people from thinking together. 问：看来不同的职业的确让人 不容易沟通，但更重要的是 内心深处的生活态度妨碍了人们去一起思考。
44:50 K: Madame, when you have learnt all the professor has to say, at the end of the class, you can ask him questions. 克：夫人，请把教授讲的东西听完， 在课结束时，你可以提问。
45:09 Q: We want to have what you have if you have it. 问：我们想得到你所拥有的东西，如果你有的话。

克：要得到你觉得我有的东西，你就得保持安静。
45:22 K: If you want to get what you think I have, then one has to be silent. No, no! Please! Don’t clap! I’m not being clever. I mean, if you want to learn something, you have to be quiet. If you want to learn how to play the violin, you have to watch, you have to follow the teacher, the violinist who says: put your finger there, there, practise, so on. But you are not doing that! So. （笑声）（鼓掌）不，不！别鼓掌！ 我不是卖弄聪明。

克：我是说，如果你想学习，你必须安静。 你要想学习拉小提琴，你就得去观察， 你就得听从老师的指点，这位小提琴手告诉你， 把手指放在那里，那里，练习，等等。 可是，你们没有那样做！ 所以。
46:05 God, we started. Thinking together does not imply conformity. Right? Thinking together does not mean that you subject your own selves, put aside and copy somebody. Right? You understand, sir? We are learning, learning to find out how to think together, which doesn’t mean that we lose our natural – whatever it is we lose. Right? Can we proceed from there? 天啊，我们开始…（笑） 一起思考并不意味着遵从别人。 对吧？ 一起思考不是让你屈服、顺从， 丢掉自己，模仿别人。 对吧？你理解吗，先生？ 我们在学习，学习探索如何一起思考， 这不是要我们丢掉本能——不管它是什么本能。 对吧？ 我们从那个地方接着讲，好吗？

问：好，请讲吧。
46:55 Q: Yes, please. 克：所以，一起思考，教授说，
46:58 K: So thinking together, the professor says, implies that you and the professor, who has studied Aristotle, all the dialogues of various people – I have not, fortunately – the professor has studied all this. He says, ‘I will put aside my learning, all that I have acquired, and you also put aside your learning, and let’s meet’. That’s all he is saying. Right? Can you do that? 意味着你跟这个研究过亚里士多德（笑） 以及所有各种人的谈话的教授——幸好我没有， 这个教授都研究过。 他说：“我会把我的知识，我学到的所有东西放在一边， 你也把你的知识放下，咱们到一块儿来吧。” 他就是这么说的。 对吧？你能那样去做吗？

问：问题在于，先生，把它放下。
47:46 Q: The problem, sir, is putting it aside. 克：是这样的。问题在于放下。
47:51 K: All right. The problem is putting it aside. 问：我们继续讨论如何放下好吗？
47:56 Q: Could we possibly keep on with the how we put it aside? 克：好。好的，先生。
48:03 K: Yes. All right, sir. 问：我想像狗盯着骨头一样去观察。
48:05 Q: I am wanting to observe like a dog to the bone. Don’t let us leave from that point. Thank you. 咱们别跑题。 谢谢你。
48:17 K: I won’t leave that point. You are a student, I am a professor, I have a right to answer it. The question is, in what manner do you put aside your particular way of thinking? But first you know your particular way of thinking. Right? Do you? Don’t you know your particular way of thinking? That you are a follower of somebody, that you believe this, that you think this is right, this is wrong, and this should be, my experience tells me it is so. So are you aware of this fact? If you are aware, what does that awareness of the fact mean? When you are aware of the fact that you have your own particular opinion and you are aware of it, what do we mean by being aware of your opinion? You understand? This is simple. Is that awareness a judgement awareness – you understand? You follow what I say? Is that awareness of your prejudice, an awareness in which you are judging your personal opinion, or just being aware of it? Not saying it is right, wrong, should be, must not be, just, ‘Yes, I have prejudice, I know I have prejudice’. Right? That’s all. Wait, wait. Are you in that position now? That you know you have prejudices. Right? Then why do you have these prejudices? Is it your family, your education, your desire for security in a belief, in a point of view. Right? You are following all this? You are going to have an examination at the end! 克：我不会跑题的。 你是学生，我是教授，我有回答问题的权利。 这个问题是，怎样 放下你自己的那个思考方式？ 不过，首先，你了解你自己的那种思考方式吗？ 对吧？ 你了解吗？ 你了解你自己的那种思考方式吗？ 就是，你在效仿某个人， 你相信这个，你认为这个是对的， 这个是错的，应该如何，我的经验告诉我它是这样的。 你觉察到这个事实了吗？ 如果你觉察到了，对这个事实的觉察意味着什么？ 当你觉察到这个事实：你有着你自己的那个观点， 你觉察到它了，那么，觉察到你的观点对于我们来说意味着什么呢？ 大家理解吗？这很简单。 那种觉察是带着评判的觉察吗？——大家理解吗？ 大家跟上我讲的东西了吗？ 对于自己偏见的觉察，那是一种也包含 你对个人意见的评判的觉察吗？还是只是意识到它？ 不去说它是对的，错的，应该如何， 一定不能如何，而只是说：“是的，我存在偏见，我知道我是有偏见的”。 对吧？就是这样。 等一下，等一下。 现在你是那种状态吗？ 你知道你存在偏见。 是这样吗？ 那么，你为什么存在偏见？ 是因为你的家庭，教育， 想要从一个信仰、一个观点里面得到安全的渴望吗？ 是吗？这些大家都跟上了吗？ 到最后要对你们进行测验呢!
51:21 So, are you aware of it that way? So you know, aware, that you have prejudices. 你们是那样觉察的吗？ 因而你了解到、觉察到你是存在偏见的。
51:39 Q: Sir, but most of our thinking is unconscious. 问：先生，可是我们的大部分思想是潜意识的。
51:52 K: Yes, sir, but I’m just… I am making it conscious now. And one is helping each other to become conscious of our thinking which has produced these prejudices. Right? So, are you aware of these prejudices? And these prejudices are keeping us apart. Right? Right? Isn’t that so?

Q: Yes. 		克：我们是在互相帮助，好意识到 我们的思想造成了这些偏见。 对吧？ 那么，你觉察到这些偏见了吗？ 这些偏见正在把我们分开。 对吧？对吧？ 不是这样吗？

问：是这样。
52:28 K: Now. So, these prejudices, keeping us apart, prevents our thinking together. Right? So can you, seeing the necessity of thinking together, say, ‘All right, I won’t have prejudices’? Because thinking together becomes all important, not your prejudices, therefore prejudices you put aside. Right? Are you doing it? 克：所以是这些偏见将我们分开的，不让我们一起思考。 对吧？ 那么，看到一起思考的必要性之后，你能不能 说：“好的，我不想再抱什么偏见了”？ 因为现在最重要的事情是一起思考， 而不是你的偏见，所以你就放下了那些偏见。 对吧？你放下了吗？
53:10 Q: Sir, my prejudice is that I feel that you pretend. Can you help me out of it? 问：先生，我的偏见是我觉得你是在装假。 你能帮我打消这个偏见吗？
53:27 K: That I pretend? 克：我装假？
53:31 Q: Can you help me out of it? 问：你能帮我打消这个偏见吗？

问：他存在一个偏见。
53:40 Q: He has a prejudice. 克：他存在一个偏见，根据我的理解
53:51 K: He has a prejudice, according to what I have understood, that I am pretending. I don’t know what I am pretending about, but that is irrelevant. So he says, ‘I have a prejudice. Help me to see it is a prejudice, and seeing the prejudice prevents thinking together, and thinking together is most important, therefore I will drop my prejudice’ – you understand? The dropping of the prejudice is not important, what is much more important is thinking together. Right? And you cannot think together if you have a prejudice. 就是我是在装假。 我不知道我在装什么假，不过那无关紧要。 他说：“我存在一个偏见。” “帮我明白它是偏见，看到偏见” “妨碍了一起思考，一起思考才是最重要的，” “于是，我会丢开我的偏见”——大家理解吗？ 丢开偏见并不重要， 一起思考要重要得多。 对吧？ 如果你存在偏见，你就无法一起思考。

问：我想请你注意，存在着另一种可能性，好吗？
54:55 Q: Can I express another possibility? Can we look closely at one point that you have made? You say that thinking causes division. I think that only thinking can create again a unity. You don’t agree with that, I think, because of your secret. I don’t, if I may express myself quickly, I don’t think you understand entirely your secret, which is love. You say that if one has love, which a being like you, I think, has, then with this love that one has, then one can think together. I think that for a western audience, we cannot grasp this kind of love as you can. One has to discover that through thinking together. If he had this love, which you can have, I think it can only be an illusion. 我们仔细看看你提出的一个观点好吗？ 你说思想导致分裂。 我认为只有思想才能让我们再次团结起来。 你有你的秘密，你不会同意我的想法的。 如果我可以快速说完的话， 我觉得你没有完全理解你的秘密，也就是爱。 你说如果一个人心中有爱，这种我认为像你这样的人所具有的爱， 那么带着他所具有的这种爱，他才能够一起思考。 我觉得，作为一个西方的听众， 我们无法像你一样领会这种爱。 你必须通过一起思考去发现它。 如果他像你一样拥有这种爱，我觉得那只能是一个幻觉。
55:55 K: What is that, sir? 克：那是什么呢，先生？（笑声）

问：这是非常复杂的。
56:09 Q: It’s very complicated. 问：先生，他说他认为西方人的心里没有爱的能力，
56:11 Q: Sir, he says he thinks the western mind is incapable of loving and must think first before arriving at love. He says that you are able to think together because you are able to love.

K: Aha. 		所以必须先思考，然后到达爱。 他说您能够一起思考，是因为您能够爱。
56:27 Q: He says that he is western, therefore he cannot love but must think together first. 克：啊哈。

问：他说他是西方人， 因此他无法去爱，而必须先去一起思考。
56:32 Q: Not exactly, but continue. 问：不完全这样，不过接着说。

问：我尽力了。
56:37 Q: I tried my best. 克：据我理解，我可能说的不对，请纠正我，先生，
56:48 K: As I understand it – I may be wrong, please, correct it, sir – that the speaker is able to love and therefore he’s able to think together. And the western mind, which doesn’t know what love is, therefore it is impossible without that love to think together. 讲话者能够去爱，因而他可以一起思考。 而西方人的心里不知道什么是爱， 没有那种爱，因而无法一起思考。

问：那是一种偏见。

克：非常正确。
57:20 Q: That is a prejudice. 我一开始就说，只有思考，
57:23 K: Quite right. I said at the beginning there is only thinking, not western thinking and eastern thinking. Western thinking has devoted all its energy to technological, scientific, business. And the eastern mind says, through thinking, measurement, you cannot come upon that state which is immeasurable. And they said the principle of that is Brahman – that is a Sanskrit word, you don’t have to learn that. 既不是西方的思考，也不是东方的思考。 西方的思考把全部精力投入到 技术、科学和商业里面去了。 而东方的思想则说，通过思考、 度量，你无法发现那种浩瀚无边的境界。 他们说，那种原则是梵（Brahman）， 那是一个梵语词汇，你们没必要学。 所以，我们认识到，只要我们之间
58:21 So we come to the point that as long as we do not love each other, then thinking is not possible – together, right? If I love you and you’re full of prejudices, however much I may offer my open hand to you, you’ll reject it, because you have your own importance, your own knowledge, your own conditioning, and you say, ‘Sorry’. That is what is preventing us. And if we don’t meet there, we cannot possibly create a good society. And the speaker says, if we do not create a good society, we are going to destroy ourselves; whether you are in the western technological world, it is going to destroy the world, if you have not this communication of love. That’s all. 没有爱，那么一起思考就是不可能的，对吧？ 如果我爱你，而你充满偏见，那么不管我怎样张开手 伸向你，你都会拒绝，因为你有你自己认为重要的东西， 你有你自己的知识和制约，于是你说：“抱歉”。 那就是妨碍我们一起思考的东西。 如果我们不能走到一起，我们就不可能创造一个美好社会。 讲话者说的是，如果我们不去创造一个美好社会， 我们将自我毁灭， 不管是生活在西方的技术世界里， 如果你没有这种爱的交流，那将会毁灭世界。 就是这样。 听了所有这些话，看到一起思考的重要性，
59:45 Now, can you, after listening to all this, naturally put aside your prejudice, because thinking together is important? The greater puts aside the lesser, obviously. Right? Can you do it? Does your interest lie in bringing about a good society, knowing the whole intellectual, religious organisations, intellectual, philosophical, denied all this – you understand? 你能因此自然而然地放下你的偏见吗？ 放下越多，偏见越少，显然如此。 对吧？你能做到吗？ 你对于创造一个美好的社会感兴趣吗？ 你知道整个知识界，所有宗教的、哲学的组织， 都否定了这一切——你理解吗？
1:00:33 Q: If we want to bring about a good society, we have to understand what you say. And I feel there is no understanding between you and I. 问：要想创造一个美好社会 我们得理解你讲的东西。 可是我感觉你我之间缺乏理解。
1:00:44 K: I’ve explained… How can I help you to understand what I am saying? It is very simple if you listen. 克：如果你听的话，其实很简单。
1:00:56 Q: What I am trying to say, sir, is that, unfortunately, I am not listening, and I am trying to work out why I am not listening to you. 问：其实我想说的是，先生，遗憾的是我没有 听，我在琢磨我为什么没有听。
1:01:15 K: Look, let me put it this way. The speaker wants to create a good society. 克：听着，我这么说吧。 讲话者想创造一个美好社会。
1:01:23 Q: So does the listener over here. 问：这儿的听众也想。
1:01:28 K: I want to create a good society, and nobody will listen to me. What am I to do? Jump in the lake? 克：我想创造一个美好社会，可是我说话没人愿意听。 我怎么办？跳进湖里？
1:01:39 Q: I may as well, sir. 问：我也会这么做，先生？
1:01:49 K: A good society is not some life in the future. Right? It must be a good society now, because I am living in here. I want to live peacefully, without danger, without terrorism, without being kidnapped, without being bombed. 克：一个美好的社会，不是什么未来的生活。 对吧？ 它必须是现在的美好社会，因为我正生活在此时此地。 我想要安宁地生活，没有危险， 没有恐怖主义，不会被绑架，不会被炸弹袭击。

问：那里面不能有任何欲望，那样做只是因为必须如此。
1:02:16 Q: There can’t be any desire in that, it’s just a necessity to do that. 克：于是我对你说，我想创造一个美好社会，你愿意与我同行吗？
1:02:24 K: And I say to you, as I want to create a good society now, will you join me? 问：那就是我们到这儿来的原因。
1:02:33 Q: That’s why we are here. 克：要与我同行，讲话者说，放下你的偏见、
1:02:37 K: To join me, the speaker says, put aside your prejudices, your nationalities, your religion, your gurus, your this and that, and let us come together. And apparently you don’t want to. That is the problem. Either you are – this is not an insult – either you are too old, or being young, you are caught in something else: sex, drugs, your own gurus – this or that. So you are not interested in creating a good society. Right? 你的国家、你的宗教、你的古鲁、 你的各种东西，咱们到一起来吧。 可是显然你们不想这样。 那就是问题。 要么你就是——这不是侮辱， 要么是你年纪太大，要么是你太年轻，沉迷在别的什么东西里面， 性、毒品、你自己的古鲁，等等。 所以，你对于创造一个美好社会并不感兴趣。 对吧？
1:03:25 Q: Krishnamurti, don’t you understand what you are saying. You are saying what we all feel, we want to create a good society. You are saying we can only create a good society if we think together. You are saying we can only think together if we have love. 问：克里希那穆提，难道你不明白你说的是什么吗？ 你说的是，我们都感到，都想要创造一个美好社会。 你说的是，只有一起思考，我们才能创造一个美好社会。 你说的是，只有当我们有爱的时候，才能一起思考。
1:03:42 K: All right, sir. I will tell you what I think good society... 克：是这样的，先生。我要告诉你我认为的美好社会…
1:03:44 Q: I would finish very quickly. The only kind of love we can get in order to think together is the kind of love which most of humanity, particularly western humanity, had to spend 10., 20, 30 years in the Mysteries. They had to die to get this love. Sure, you might have it, but that doesn’t help us. That is the point this man is making, and that’s the point this man is making. You have to respect us enough to think that we are sincere. 问：我马上就说完。 我们唯一可以得到的，可以让我们一起思考的那种爱， 是那种大多数人，特别是 西方人必须投身于奥秘当中10年、20年或30年才能获得的那种爱。 他们必须用生命来获得这种爱。 当然，你可能有这种爱，可是那帮不了我们。 本人就是这个意思， 本人就是这个意思。 你得给予我们足够的尊重，你得相信我们是真诚的。
1:04:11 K: What? 克：什么？
1:04:13 Q: He says we don’t have love because we haven’t gone through the Mysteries, the Western Mysteries, the Western religious esoteric tradition. 问：他说我们没有爱是因为我们没有经历过 奥秘，西方的奥秘，深奥的西方宗教传统。
1:04:21 K: So… 问：我们得经历10年、20年、30年、40年的
1:04:25 Q: It takes ten, twenty, thirty, forty years to go through the search or process in order to see the mystery. He say you may have that, but the rest of us in the West do not have that. They have to go through that… 探索过程才能看到奥秘。 他说，你可能有那种爱，可是我们其他西方人…
1:04:42 Q: That love does not just come. For you, perhaps. We have to die for that. I don’t think you can understand that. It’s a loss of consciousness. 那种爱不会简简单单地到来。对于您，或许可能。 我们必须为之付出生命。 我认为你无法理解。 那是意识的消失。
1:04:51 K: I understand it, sir, I understand it. 克：我明白，先生。我明白。

问：我们需要时间，20、30、40年时间，
1:04:58 Q: We need time, 20, 30, 40 years, to go through the process of dying, and we haven’t done that. And we can’t understand what you’re saying. I think examples are not very good. We all came here to learn a new language, and I would like all of us to be like new born babies, without any prejudice, without any obstacle, saying why should I learn that? 去经历死亡的过程，而我们还没有过那种经历… 所以，我们无法理解你说的东西。

问：我觉得那些先例并不能说明什么。 我们大家到这儿是来学习一种新的语言， 我希望大家都像初生的婴儿一样，没有任何 偏见，没有任何说我为什么应该学习那个东西的障碍。
1:05:40 K: The gentleman says that the western world has to evolve, go through number of years and die to their own prejudices, and all the rest of it. That means the western world has to go through a great deal of evolution before it can come to this. 克：这位先生说，西方世界必须进化，经历 许多年，让他们的偏见死掉，等等。 那意味着在到达这一步之前， 西方世界必须经历漫长的进化。

问：不完全正确。

问：以我对你的理解，克里希那穆提，
1:06:10 Q: That’s not exactly correct. As I understand you, Krishnamurti, you say we want a good society, that is true. You say we can only get a good society if we think together, that is true. You posit the only way we can think together is if we have love. I am saying that what I don’t think you can understand what is your secret – is that you may have this love. But what I am saying is that western man... 你说我们想要一个美好的社会，没错。 你说只有一起思考，我们才能得到一个美好社会，没错。 你假定我们能够一起思考的唯一办法是我们有爱。 我说的是，那个我认为你并不理解的东西， 你的秘密——就是你或许有这种爱。 而我说的是，西方人…
1:06:37 Q: Say you don’t have that love.

Q: I say that very clearly. 		问：就说你没有那种爱吧。

问：我说得非常清楚。

问：我们不想听你讲。
1:06:42 Q: We don’t want to hear you. 克：先生，我明白，先生，我明白。
1:06:44 K: Sir, I understand, sir, I understand. One moment. I understand. You are saying western man must be this, and this. And so you are saying you represent the western man. Right? Are you the western man who represents the whole of the West? 等一下。我明白。 你是说西方人必须这样、这样。 那么你是在说你代表这个西方人。 对吧？ 你是这个代表整个西方的西方人吗？
1:07:08 Q: No, I am saying, in general, that is a commonsense fact. 问：不，我是从普遍意义上讲的，那是一个常识性的事实。
1:07:11 K: Jesus! 克：天哪！
1:07:12 Q: Of course, there are exceptions. There will always be an exception. 问：当然有例外。总是有例外的。
1:07:16 K: Can we, sir, if I may most respectfully point out, can you drop that conclusion? 克：我们能否，先生，如果我可以极其恭敬地指出的话， 您能丢掉那个结论吗？
1:07:27 Q: If you like, I shall. Continue. 问：如果你希望这样，我会的。接着说。
1:07:36 K: It is not what I like, sir. Are we in parliament? Are we in a debating society? Please, sir, would you mind sitting down. 克：这不是我希望，先生。 （听众讲话，叫喊）

克：我们是在议会里吗？（笑声） 我们是在开辩论会吗？ 先生，请您坐下好吗？
1:08:48 Q: I won’t sit down. I am very serious. I want you to prove that you have got it, right now. 问：我不想坐下，我是非常认真的。 我想要你证明你有这种爱，就在现在。

问：坐下！

问：坐下！
1:09:06 Q: Sit down!

Q: Sit down! 		（听众在讲话）
1:09:18 Q: Sit down.

K: What is your question, sir? 		问：坐下。

克：你的问题是什么，先生？
1:10:34 Q: Please, don’t hinder the others. 问：请别妨碍别人。
1:10:59 Q: I’m very serious. 问：我是非常认真的。
1:11:08 Q: Has everybody who wants to say something said? So we can listen to Krishnamurti. I have said all I needed to say, and I think I have learnt something from Krishnamurti and that is why was able to stand up and express myself because I was listening to Krishnamurti. And I think the fact that other people can do the same shows Krishnamurti has helped us to free ourselves. 问：大家想说的都说完了吗？ 这样我们好听克里希那穆提讲话。 我把我要说的都说完了，我觉得我从克里希那穆提 那里学到了些东西，那就是为什么我能够站起来 自我表达，因为我是在听克里希那穆提。 我认为其他人同样能够这么做这个事实 说明克里希那穆提帮助我们解放了自我。
1:11:41 K: I hope you are all having a lovely time! 克：希望大家都很开心！（笑声）
1:11:44 Q: Yes, thank you. 问：是的，谢谢你！
1:11:53 K: One of the questions that gentleman asked was that he thinks all my life is a pretence. Just a minute sir, just a minute. You asked that question. I don’t see how I can answer that question. I don’t think I am pretending. So that is the end of my answer. 克：这位先生的一个问题 是他认为我的一生是在装假。 等一下，先生，等一下。 你问了那个问题。 我不知道该怎么回答。 我认为我没有装假。 我的回答到此为止。
1:12:25 So let’s come back. Please, let’s stop parliamentarianism and let’s talk over together in a friendly spirit, for god’s sake. As we said, neither the East nor the West knows what love is. Don’t say the West doesn’t know it, the East knows it. Right? Both are caught in this world. Both have to live in this world. Both have to live on this earth which is theirs, the earth is not West or East. Right? And the division has taken place for various reasons, which I have gone into, which we’ve all gone into, and can we meet without all these conclusions, that you are West and East, that we must go through certain evolutionary process, but know that we don’t love and therefore we can’t come together? And knowing that we don’t love, let’s find out why, and if it is possible to love. It is only then you can create a good society; without that it is impossible. Various, Greeks and others, have postulated what a good society should be: justice, equality, and so on, so on – always in the future. When you say what a good society should be, means in the future. Right? The very word ‘should’ implies time. And the speaker says, that may be another illusion you are caught in. Whereas goodness born out of love can happen now. And from that a good society can be born. Instead of holding to that, going into that, we are dispersing our energies all the time. Right? This is not impatience, or anger, or insult, we don’t stick to this one thing. 咱们回来吧。 拜托，咱们停止议会主义吧（笑声）， 看在老天的份上，咱们一起以友好的精神来讨论吧。 正如我们说过的，东方、西方都不知道什么是爱。 不要说西方不知道，东方知道。 好吗？ 两者都在这个世界上陷于困境。 两者都需要生活在这个世界上。 两者都需要生活在这个地球上， 这是他们的地球，地球不属于西方，也不属于东方。 对吧？ 由于各种原因，造成了分裂， 这个我调查过，我们都调查过， 我们能否把那些结论都放下，走到一起来呢？放下那些你是西方人， 你是东方人，我们必须经历某种进化过程的想法， 认识到是因为没有爱，才使得我们无法走到一起来的？ 了解到我们没有爱，咱们去弄清楚这是为什么， 以及爱是否是可能的。 只有那时你才能创造一个美好的社会；没有爱，那就是不可能的。 希腊人，还有其他人提出过假说，一个美好的社会应该是 公正的、平等的，等等，等等，——一直存在于未来。 当你说美好社会应该如何的时候，意思就是在未来。 对吧？ 正是“应该”这个词意味着时间。 讲话者说，那可能是将你困住的另一个幻觉。 然而，从爱里面生出来的善是可以马上出现的。 美好社会可以由此产生。 我们不去盯住那一点，对它进行调查， 却一直在分散精力。 是吧？ 我不是不耐烦，也不是生气或者侮辱你 我们没有盯住这一件事。
1:15:35 So we come to the point: can we think together because we love each other? That’s all. Do you love anything: your children, your husband, your girl, your boy, your wife, do you love them? Or is it me always the first, and you the second? You understand? And where there is this division, me first and you second, it will never produce a good society. And therefore a good society can only come if you’re good; which means you don’t belong to any category of religions, of knowledge, of conclusions. You say, look, I want to become a good man. You don’t talk. Please, you understand now? Will you do it? 所以，现在的问题就是：我们能否因为我们彼此相爱而一起思考呢？ 就是这么回事。 你爱什么吗？你的孩子、 你的丈夫、你的女朋友、男朋友、你的妻子，你爱他们吗？ 还是说，总是我在前，你其次？ 你理解吗？ 只要存在这种先己后人 的分裂，美好社会就永远也不会出现。 所以，只有当你是一个好人的时候，美好社会才会到来；这意味着你 不属于任何宗教，任何知识，任何结论的范畴。 你说，听着，我想成为一个好人。 你不想。注意，你现在理解吗？

问：理解。

克：你愿意这么做吗？
1:17:02 We have had seven talks and this is the fifth discussion, and the last. If you observe, what have you learnt from all this – 7 talks and 5 discussions? What is the treasure or hot air that you are going to carry out when you leave here? You understand? Have you found a jewel, imperishable jewel, and so you can go out with it, or you are going away with a lot of words? You understand my question, sir? So the professor at the end of the talks says, ‘What have you learnt?’ Have you learnt a lot of words, that the East is East, and West is West, and all the rest of it; what we believe is better than what you say, and so, what have we learnt? Is there, out of all these talks and discussions and dialogues, that flame, the flame that lights the world – you understand? – lights our own life. Right, sir. 我们已经进行了七次谈话，这是第五次，也就是最后一次讨论。 如果你去观察， 你从所有这七次谈话和五次讨论当中学到了什么？ 在离开这里的时候， 你将带走的是珍宝，还是一堆空话？ 大家理解吗？ 你是发现了一块宝石、一块不朽的宝石，于是你带着它走出去， 还是说，你带走了许多言辞？ 你理解我的问题吗，先生？ 所以，这个教授在这些谈话的最后说道：“你学到了什么？” 你是学到了许多说法，东方是东方， 西方是西方，等等；我们的信仰 比你讲的东西好，那么我们学到了什么呢？ 在所有这些谈话、讨论和对话当中，有没有出现那个火焰， 那个照亮世界的火焰——你理解吗？——照亮我们自己生活的火焰。 好了，先生。