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SA79T1 - 是否有办法摆脱这个世界的危机？
第一次公开讲话，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月8日



0:33 Krishnamurti: I didn’t expect so many people. I wonder what we shall talk about. 没想到来了这么多人。 我们讨论什么好呢？
1:25 It seems to me that our self-centred problems and the problems that lie beyond our own personal crises, disturbances and miseries, the world about us is more or less in chaos, in great confusion. I think everybody will admit that without a great deal of trouble, with a great deal of investigation. And nobody apparently sees a solution for this, neither politically, nor religiously, nor economically. That again is an obvious fact. And nobody asks if there is a way out of all this, the trap in which human beings have been caught for millennia, if there is any way out of this mess, confusion, turmoil, terror. Not finding an answer, many people resort to the old traditions, join old religions, or form a small community hoping thereby to solve their own particular problems. And I may suggest that there is a way out of all this, out of our present continuous misery, conflict, strife, various forms of terror and the threatening wars, not only near but far. So to investigate all this and find out if there is a solution, a way out, without suppression, without escape, without any kind of illusion. And if you will have the patience, energy and the serious responsibility that is involved, we can think together. I hope you are prepared for that – thinking together. 在我看来，我们那些自我中心的问题， 我们个人的危机、困扰和不幸之外的问题， 周遭世界差不多都陷于严重的混乱之中。 在大量调查之后，任何人都可以 很轻易地认识到这一点。 对此，显然谁也没有提出一个解决办法来， 无论是从政治、宗教，还是从经济角度。 这又是一个不争的事实。 谁也不去问一问，有没有办法摆脱这一切， 几千年来人类困在这个陷阱当中， 是否有办法从这种混乱、困惑、焦虑和恐惧中解脱出来。 因为找不到答案，许多人求助于古老的传统， 加入古老的宗教组织，或者结成小团体， 希望由此解决他们自己的某些问题。 我想提个建议，我认为有一个摆脱这一切的办法， 摆脱我们目前持续不断的不幸、冲突、争斗、 各种形式的恐怖以及眼前和将来的战争威胁。 所以要对这一切进行调查，弄清楚是否存在一种 不压制、不逃避、没有任何幻觉的解决办法和出路。 如果你有足够的耐心、精力 和严肃的责任感，我们就可以一起来思考。 我希望大家做好了准备——一起思考。
5:13 There are two different kinds of thinking: one, thinking about something – about a problem, about a personal issue, or about the world, and so on. That is, thinking about something. And is there another kind of thinking which is not about something? Please, carefully, I will go into this widely and deeply if I may. 思考有两种不同的方式：一种是对某件事情进行思考， 对某个问题，对一个个人问题或者世界问题等等。 那是针对某件事情来思考。 有没有另外一种形式的思考呢？不针对什么？ 来，容我谨慎地、广泛深入地讨论一下这个问题。
6:05 So we are asking: our minds are accustomed to think about something – about a problem, out of our personal desires, fulfilments, sorrow, anxiety, and so on – about something. And we are accustomed to that, ‘thinking about’. We are asking, not about something but thinking itself. If this issue is clear, not about something which will come later on, but thinking together. Please, see the difference: thinking together does not mean that you agree or disagree, accept or reject, defend or offend, but together find out if it is possible by thinking together we can act together, not about something – please, apply your minds to this a little bit – not about something, which we can more or less do. We can agree to act in a certain way, we can put our minds together to investigate a certain problem, but we are not going into that for the present. But we are asking: thinking together without any barriers, without any inhibitions, without any prejudice, letting go your personal experiences, your personal urge to fulfil. Which means you and the speaker, together, be free to think. Is this somewhat clear? 我们问的是：我们的头脑习惯于对什么事情进行思考， 针对一个我们个人的渴望、满足、悲伤和焦虑等等 所引发的问题，即针对着什么。 我们对此习以为常，“针对什么来思考”。 我们现在问的不是对什么进行思考，而是思考本身。 如果这个问题清楚了， 不是针对什么，这个会在以后讨论，而是一起思考。 你看它们俩的区别：一起思考 不是同意或反对，不是接受或拒绝，也不是辩解或冒犯， 而是一起去弄清楚，我们是否可以通过一起思考， 来一起行动，不是针对某件事情——请稍微用心 理解一下——不是针对某件事情，那种思考我们差不多都会做。 我们可以一致同意，按照某种方式行动， 也可以齐心协力，去调查某个问题， 但目前我们探讨的不是这个。 我们希望的是：没有任何阻碍、 顾虑和偏见地一起思考， 把个人的经验和对满足的渴望放下。 这意味着你们和讲话者一起自由地思考。 这一点清楚些了吗？
9:24 Please, this needs a great deal of investigation because we are conditioned to think together about certain ideas, about certain conclusions, philosophical, historical, and so on. Then there are those who agree, and those who disagree. They form two camps, each opposing the other, which is what is happening in the world. The Totalitarian, the so-called Democratic, the Capitalists and the Marxists, and so on, agreeing and disagreeing, opposing and defending. Whereas we are asking, if we could think together freely, you letting go all your experiences, your conclusions, your desires, prejudices, and so on, putting them aside, so that together we can think. Will you do that? You and the speaker putting aside his beliefs, his opinions and judgements and evaluations, his hopes, and so on, and together think, not about something, but think. Shall we do it? Which means that being free of our own personal problems, urges, demands, fulfilments, and so on, being free to investigate together, not investigate into something, but the capacity, the spirit of investigation. Is this somewhat clear? Which requires not only that you listen, not to what is being said, but to listen to the quality of a mind that is thinking, not with regard to something, but listening to the whole quality of thinking, which requires certain awareness and attention. Right? 请注意，需要对此进行大量的调查，因为我们， 习惯于就哲学、历史等方面的 某些观点、结论一起思考。 然后，有人就会同意，有人就会反对。 他们形成两个阵营， 彼此对抗，世界现在就是这样。 极权主义者、所谓的民主主义者、资本主义者以及 马克思主义者等等，他们全都是在拥护、反对，抵制和辩解。 而我们问的是，我们是否可以一起来自由地思考， 放下你所有的经验、结论、渴望、 偏见等等，把它们放下，我们好一起来思考。 你们愿意这么做吗？ 你们和讲话者把他的信仰， 他的观点、评判、评价以及 他的希望等等都放下，一起思考，不是针对什么，就是思考。 我们来这么做一下好吗？ 这意味着我们摆脱了个人的那些难题、冲动、要求、 满足与实现等等，我们在一起自由地进行调查，不是 调查什么事情，而是我们都具备进行这种调查的能力和精神。 这一点清楚些了吗？ 这要求你不仅仅是听，不是倾听我说的话， 而是倾听并非对某件事情而进行思考的 心的品质，倾听整个思考的品质， 这需要一定的觉察和注意。 是吧？
13:58 Where there is attention there is no centre from which you are attending. I wonder if you are doing it as we are talking. That is, when you attend, in which there is no division, then in that attention thought is not your thought or my thought, it is thinking. Can we proceed along these lines? Are we following each other? 在你注意的时候，产生这个注意力的中心就不存在。 不知我们谈话时你有没有这样去做。 就是说，当你注意时，不存在分歧，在这个 注意里，思考不分你的、我的，它就是思考。 我们这样进行下去好吗？ 我们彼此清楚了吗？
15:08 When you give your attention, which means to give all your mind, your heart, your nerves, to completely give attention, do you find that there is a centre from which you are attending? So in that attention, there is not your thinking and the speaker thinking, there is only a quality of total attention. Right? Don’t look so mystified, it is really quite simple. 当你注意的时候，这意味着你的心、 你所有的神经都在注意，你是全神贯注的， 这个时候，产生注意的中心还存在吗？ 所以，那种注意里就没有你的思考和讲话者的思考， 而只有一种全然注意的品质。 对吧？ 别这么迷惑呀（笑声），这真的很简单！
16:22 You see, our thinking, ordinary everyday thinking, is with regard to a certain subject, to a certain action, to a certain problem – thinking about something. Right? Right? That thinking is from an experience, from a memory, from a knowledge, therefore it is your experience opposed to another’s experience. So there is always division. Right? Please, follow this. You have your opinion and another has his opinion, and the two divisive opinions, dividing opinions can never come together. If you believe in something and another believes in something else strongly, then there is wide cleavage. To that way of thinking we are accustomed. Right? Now we are asking: that thinking can never be ‘together’ because it is always either opposing, defending or accepting. Whereas we are saying something entirely different. Thinking together implies that you and the other have let go all their prejudices, and all that – thinking together – because in that thinking together there is no your thinking and my thinking separate, it is together thinking. Right? Have you understood this? 我们的思考，日常的思考 是对某个对象、 某个行动、某个问题——对什么事物去思考。 对吧？ 那种思考来自于一次经验、一个记忆以及一种知识， 所以它就是你的经验而不是别人的经验。 因此，总是存在分歧。 对吧？ 请跟上这个。 你有你的观点，他有他的观点，两个 造成不和的观点、分歧的观点是永远也走不到一块儿的。 如果你信奉一套理论，他信奉 另一套理论，那么就存在一个巨大的裂痕。 我们习惯于这种思考方式。 对吧？ 现在我们问：那种思考方式永远也无法让我们走到一起， 因为它不是反对就是辩护，要么就是接受。 而我们说的是完全不同的事情。 一起思考意味着你和他放弃了 所有的偏见之类的东西， 一起去思考—因为在一起思考当中并没有单独的 你的、我的思考，它是共同的思考。 对吧？ 这一点你们明白了吗？
19:03 No, please, this is very serious because it is either you accept it as an intellectual concept, which then becomes your concept and his concept. If you merely accept the verbal explanation and draw from that explanation a conclusion according to your experience, knowledge, prejudices, and the other does the same, there is no coming together. You are following all this? It is important that we come together in our thinking so that there is no barrier between your thinking and my thinking, his or hers. Can we do this together? Because from this we can proceed, because your mind then has a totally different quality. It is entirely objective, nothing personal. The self-centred problems with which we are burdened can never be solved unless there is a different quality of thinking or a different quality of perception, a different quality of insight into the problem. Right? I wonder if you are following all this. 请注意，这非常重要，或许你把它当成了 一个理智上的概念，那么它就成你的概念和他的概念。 如果你只相信词语的解释，并根据你的经验、 知识和偏见，从那个解释中得出一个结论， 他也这样处理问题，我们就不会走到一起。 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 在思考中我们走到一起来是非常重要的，这样一来， 你和我的思考，他和她的思考之间就没有隔阂。 我们一起这样思考好吗？ 因为以此为基础，我们可以继续讨论， 因为那时你的心具有一种完全不同的品质。 它是完全客观的，没有丝毫个人的东西。 要甩掉自我中心这个沉重的负担， 就必须对问题拥有一种不同品质的思考，或者 一种不同品质的领悟，一种不同品质的洞见。 对吧？ 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 那么，我们的问题就是：有没有可能,两个人或者
21:34 So our question then is: is it possible that two people, a group of people, undertake this responsibility? That putting aside your anxiety, attachment, and so on, and the other – meet, so that there is never a question of division, opinion opposing opinion, knowledge opposing knowledge, experience contradicting another experience – you are following this? So that our minds are together. The totalitarian states want this. They are the authority and they lay down what people should think, act, and so on. That is what is happening. If you disagree, you are either shot, sent to a concentration camp, or exiled. We are not saying that at all. On the contrary. Two minds educated, concerned with the world and are committed to find out whether there is a way out of this, out of the trap, out of this terrible mess that man has created for himself and for others. Can we do this together? Hai capito? You understand the question now? Together – our minds are equal, so the speaker is not telling you what to do, and you obey, or disregard, or accept, but our minds are together, being free to solve our problems. Right? Can we do this? Will you give up your Zen meditation, give up your particular guru? Give up your belief, your own experience to which you cling to, your own personal self-interested problems, let go and then meet together. 一群人承担起这个责任来？ 你把你的焦虑、执着等等都放下， 你和他走到一起，于是就永远也不会出现分歧， 也不会为了捍卫各自的观点、知识或者经验 而发生对抗——这一点你跟上吗？ 这样，我们的心就在一起了。 在极权主义国家里，是这样要求的: 他们是权威， 他们规定人们应该想什么、做什么，等等。 现在就是这种情况。 如果你反对，你要么被枪毙， 要么被关进集中营，或者被流放。 我们说的根本不是那种事。 恰好相反。 两颗心，他们受过教育，为这个世界感到忧虑，决心去弄清楚 是否有办法摆脱这种局面、这种困境，是否有办法 从人类给自己和他人所制造的这样可怕的混乱当中走出去。 我们一起来做这件事好吗？ 大家明白吗？ 现在大家理解这个问题了吗？ 一起——我们的心是平等的，所以，不是讲话者告诉你 该做什么，你要么服从，要么不理，要么接受， 而是我们的心是在一起的，可以自由地去解决问题。 对吧？ 我们可以这么做吗？ 你能放弃你的坐禅，放弃你的那位古鲁吗？ 放下你的信仰，放下你所执着的个人经验以及 个人的自私自利的问题，把它们放下，然后到一起来。
25:19 Do you see what takes place if you can do this? Then we can investigate together every problem very simply and clearly and directly, and act. That is clarity. To observe, to see without any distortion, to listen completely without making an abstraction of what you are listening to into an idea. Therefore there is only listening, there is only then seeing, not you see and I see differently, there is only seeing together. Right? 当你做到这一点的时候，发生了什么？ 那时我们就可以一起 简单清楚、直截了当地调查每个问题，并采取行动。 那就是清晰。 观察，毫无扭曲地观看，全然地倾听， 而不把你听到的东西抽象成为一个观念。 于是，就只有倾听，那时就只有看见， 不是你这么看，我那么看，我们只是在一起看。 对吧？
26:44 You see, we have instantly moved away from our own little sphere, from our own backyard, from our own self-concerned innumerable problems. Have you? Please, this is serious if we want to talk together, this is really important. Or do you carry the burden of all the troubles, anxieties, griefs and sorrows, and try to listen to another fellow, to what he is talking about? If you do that, then you are trying to conform to the pattern set by another, obviously, and so there is always division. Right? 我们马上就离开了我们自己的小天地， 离开了自己的后院，摆脱了无数自我中心的问题。 你们是这样吗？ 请注意，这是个严肃的事情， 如果我们想一起讨论的话，这的确非常严肃。 或者，你是在一边承受着各种困扰、焦虑、痛苦 和悲伤，一边又在努力去听另一个家伙讲话吗？ 那样的话，显然你是在努力服从别人规定的模式， 所以就总是存在分裂。 对吧？
28:08 So we are asking something very serious, and as you have taken the trouble to come into this tent – expenditure, energy, petrol, and all the rest of it – are we together thinking? Not you think and I think – thinking together. Then we can go into this question of time, – thinking together – not your time, my time. It is very important because we are going to find out if we think together, whether there is psychologically tomorrow at all, because that may be either an illusion or a reality: that there is psychologically tomorrow – tomorrow means many, many tomorrows. Either that may be an illusion, and so, being an illusion, we can put that aside and face this question whether there is psychologically a progressive evolutionary movement, which is time. I wonder if you follow all this? 所以我们问的是非常严肃的事情，因为大家 到这个帐篷里来不容易，需要耗费精力， 还有汽油，等等，我们是在一起思考吗？ 不是你思考和我思考，而是一起思考。 然后，我们就可以调查时间这个问题， 一起来思考，不是你的时间，我的时间。 这非常重要，因为我们要弄清楚，如果我们一起思考的话， 究竟是否存在心理上的明天， 因为那可能是个幻觉，也可能是现实： 心理上的明天——明天意味着许许多多的明天。 或者，那可能是个幻觉，那么，既然是幻觉，我们就可以 把它搁在一边，来面对这个问题，有没有在心理上 取得进步这种进化运动，即时间。 这些大家都清楚了吗？
30:35 Are you used to my language and therefore you can go to sleep? You might say, ‘Oh, yes, I have heard all this before’. If you so think, then you are not discovering for yourself, you are not thinking together. You have already stopped thinking together and say, ‘I’ve heard it before’. Because we are going very, very deeply into this therefore it is the first time you hear it. The speaker has been talking in this tent for the last 19 years, next year it will be 20 years. And probably you will all turn up and say, ‘Oh, lord, he is back again, caught in a rut’. We are not caught in a rut. We are free to listen, to observe, and that very observation, listening reveals the truth, not the idea about truth. So we are asking a very serious question, because all our conditioning, all our education, both religious, personal and worldly, is allowing or giving time to achieve something. One needs time to learn a language, one needs time to learn how to drive a car, time is necessary for acquiring skill, technological skill. To be a good carpenter, you need time. But we are asking something entirely different. There time is necessary. Psychologically – please, bear in mind we are thinking together, not what you think, time is necessary or not. We are investigating together, therefore you are free to look, to question, ask. You cannot enquire, demand, be sceptical if you just say, ‘I’ll hold on to my knowledge, I think time is necessary’, and so on – then we don’t meet together. We are thinking together about the whole question of psychological evolution. Because man throughout the millennia, has been accustomed, is used, conditioned to think that he will evolve. ‘I am this today’. ‘Give me time to change’. ‘I am envious, frightened, burdened with enormous sorrow and I must have time to get over it, to go beyond it’. This is what we are used to. So the speaker is saying whether such psychological evolution exists at all. Or it is the invention of thought because it says, ‘I cannot change today, give me time, for god’s sake, tomorrow’. The everlasting becoming. ‘I will be successful as an executive, as a first-class engineer, or a first-class carpenter’. All this needs skill and you need time. But we are asking: is there psychological evolution at all – the ‘me’ becoming something? You understand? We are thinking together, not about whether time exists psychologically or not. We are thinking together, therefore there is no opposition. Right? 大家是不是对我的表达方式都习以为常了，于是就可以睡觉了？ 你可能会说，“哦，对，这些以前我都听过了。” 如果你这么想，你就没有亲自去发现， 你就没有一起思考。 因为你已经终止了一起思考，于是，你说“我以前听过这个了。” 因为我们是在非常、 非常深入地研究这个问题，所以你这是第一次听到它。 讲话者在这个帐篷里讲了有19年了， 明年就满20年了。 很可能到时候你们都会露面，说 “哦，上帝，他又回来了，还是老调重弹。” 我们不是老调重弹。 我们是在自由地倾听、观察，正是这种观察、 倾听，而不是关于真相的观念，揭示了真相。 所以我们问的是一个非常严肃的问题，因为我们受到的 全部制约和教育，不管是宗教的、 个人的，还是世俗的，都允许你花时间去实现什么； 你需要时间学习语言，你需要时间学习开车， 时间对于掌握技巧、掌握技术是必须的。 要想成为优秀的木匠，你需要时间。 但是我们问的是完全是另外一件事。 在那里，时间是必要的。 在心理上，请记住我们是在一起思考， 不是你对于时间是否必要的看法。 我们是在一起调查， 所以你有去观看、怀疑和提问的自由。 你不会去询问、质问、怀疑的，要是你就是说 “我要坚信我的知识，我认为时间是必要的”， 等等，——要是那样的话，我们就没走到一起。 我们在一起思考整个心理进化这个问题。 因为几千年来，人类已经习惯于 认为他会进化。 “我今天是这样的。” “给我改变的时间。” “我嫉妒、恐惧、背负着巨大的悲伤， 而我必须花时间来克服它，来超越它。” 我们对此习以为常。 所以，讲话者说的是这种心理进化究竟是否存在。 还是说，它是思想的发明，因为它说 “我今天改变不了，看在上帝的份上，给我时间，给我明天吧。” 这个永恒的成为什么。 “我会成为一名成功的经理， 一位一流的工程师或者一流的木匠。” 这些工作都需要技巧，所以你需要时间。 但是我们问的是： 究竟有没有心理进化，和“我”成为什么这回事？ 大家理解吗？ 我们在一起进行思考， 不是关于在心理上时间存不存在这个问题 我们在一起思考，因此就不存在对抗。 对吧？
36:35 So let us examine the whole conditioning of becoming – together, you understand? – don’t come to any conclusion. Or if you have conclusions, let go and find out. You see the problem? If one’s conditioning allows time, then you are caught in the whole movement of becoming. That is, I am angry, one is angry, allow time to dissolve that anger. That is one’s conditioning, that’s one’s habit. And if you cling to that, we cannot think together. Therefore it is important to find out if you are clinging to something and at the same time trying to think together. Right? If I cling to my belief, to my experience according to that belief, and you likewise, we can never think together, we can never co-operate together, there is no action which is not divisive. You are following? So are we prepared to investigate together – investigate implies looking, observing, thinking – rationally, sanely, patiently, deeply. Is one free to enquire into this question: the me, the self-centred activity, the constant movement, whether you are asleep, awake, walking, dreaming, talking, it is this constant central activity of me. Has that a tomorrow, a progressive ending of it? Or a progressive continuity of it, a refinement of it? All that demands tomorrow. 所以，咱们一起完整地调查一下“成为什么” 这种制约，大家理解吗？——不要跑到任何结论上去。 或者，你要是有了什么结论，就把它放下，然后去弄个明白。 大家看到这个问题了吗？ 如果你受到的制约允许时间的存在， 那么你就被困在整个的成为什么的运动当中了。 就是说，我生气了，你生气了，要花时间来平息怒气。 那就是你受到的制约，那就是你的习惯。 如果你抱着它不放，我们就无法一起思考。 所以，重要的是弄清楚你是否执着于什么， 与此同时却又想一起思考。 对吧？ 如果我坚持我的信仰，根据那个信仰，我执着于我的经验， 而你也一样，我们就永远也不会一起思考，我们永远也无法 一起合作，任何行动都会引发争议。 你跟上了吗？ 这样，我们做好了一起调查的准备——调查意味着 理智、清醒、耐心、深入地审视、观察和思考。 你是否可以自由地探究这个问题：我，这个自我中心的， 活动，这个不断的运动，不管你是在睡觉、醒着、 走路、做梦还是在说话，它是“我”的这种持续不断的主要的活动。 能够通过进步在某个明天使它结束吗？ 或者，使它在进步中得到延续、改良？ 所有这些都需要明天。
39:51 Now, psychologically, is there a tomorrow? Please, this is a very serious question. The speaker put this question to somebody some time ago, and the person said, ‘Oh, lord, I am going to meet my husband tomorrow’. You understand? Oh, come on, there is nothing difficult, don’t be puzzled. All her hope, pleasure – you follow? – the whole memory of the husband, and if there is no tomorrow, what is my husband? Right? Please, together. We are free together to enquire into this question. The speaker is not imposing a thing on you. But it is very important to find out if there is a tomorrow. If there is no tomorrow, what takes place? We know what takes place when we have allowed multiple tomorrows: postponement, laziness, indolence, gradually achieving something, enlightenment – you understand? – Nirvana, all the rest of it. Through many lives, progress – you follow? I wonder if you follow all this, the seriousness of this investigation? If there is no tomorrow psychologically, then what happens to the quality of your mind? The mind that is thinking together, what is the quality of the mind – the mind, not your mind, my mind – but the mind that has seen the whole progressive movement of the ‘me’ becoming, that has seen what is involved in this self-achieving, self-becoming and what is involved when psychologically there is no tomorrow, no future. Do you understand, sir? 在心理上，存在明天吗？ 请注意，这是一个非常严肃的问题。 以前，讲话者问过一个人这个问题， 这个人说，“哦，天哪，明天我还要见我丈夫呢。” 大家明白吗？ 嗨，加把劲儿，这没什么难以理解的，不要迷惑。 她所有的希望、快乐——你跟上了吗？——所有关于她丈夫的记忆， 如果没有明天的话，我丈夫是什么呢？（笑声） 对吧？ 请注意，一起。 我们一起来自由地探究这个问题。 讲话者不是在强加给你什么东西。 但是，弄清楚是否存在明天非常重要。 如果没有明天，会怎样？ 我们知道，要是我们允许有许多个明天，会发生什么情况： 拖延，无精打采，懒惰懈怠，逐步地实现什么 觉悟——大家理解吗？——涅槃之类的事儿。 通过许多次生命来获得进步——你跟上了吗？ 这些大家都清楚了吗？这种调查的严肃性？ 如果不存在心理上的明天， 那么你的心的品质会发生什么变化？ 这个正在一起思考的心，具有怎样的品质？ 这颗心，不是指你的心、我的心，而是说它 看到了整个“我”成为什么的进步运动， 看到了这种自我成就、自我成为意味着什么， 也看到了没有心理上的明天，没有心理上的未来，意味着什么。 你明白吗，先生？
44:00 Psychologically then there is a tremendous revolution. Right? Is this taking place with you, that is what is important, not the words, not the speaker what is stating, but actually, actual means that which is happening now, the actuality, is the actuality that in investigating together the mind has discovered the truth that there is no tomorrow, psychologically? Then what takes place with the quality of one’s mind? You understand what I am saying? 那时，心理上就会发生巨大的转变。 对吧？ 你发生这种变化了吗，那才是关键，词语并不重要， 讲话者说了什么并不重要，而是实际上—— “实际”是指正在发生的事，现在的真实情况—— 就是通过一起调查， 心发现了在心理上并不存在明天这个真相。 那么你的心的品质发生了什么变化？ 你理解我的话吗？
45:04 All religions, Christian, Catholic, and all the rest of it, have all said tomorrow is important. Tomorrow in the Christian world, one life. When you die, one life only. The Asiatic world says multiple lives. Probably you neither believe or accept either of those two – I don’t know. But when you begin to investigate the whole psychological movement, the ‘me’, the ‘X’ becoming, becoming – you follow? – what is involved? Gradually you suffer and go on gradually lessening suffering till ultimately you are free, either in this life or in successive lives. The Christians accept this life, one life, and the Asiatics accept many, many lives – you follow? That is psychologically one life and psychologically multiple lives. And together, you and I, have looked at it without any prejudice, without any conclusion, we are observing the fact, how people are caught in this. 所有的宗教，基督教、天主教 以及所有其它教派，都认为明天是重要的。 基督教世界里的明天，人生只有一次。 在你死的时候，只有一辈子。 亚洲人认为生命有多次轮回。 两种说法，你大概都不相信也不接受 —— 我不清楚。 但是，当你开始调查整个心理上的运动， “我”,“X”成为，成为——你理解吗？——这意味着什么？ 你逐步地受苦，这样忍受着，逐步地减少痛苦， 直到你最后获得自由，可能在这辈子，也可能在来世。 基督教徒相信今生，一次生命的说法， 亚洲人则相信许许多多次生命的说法——你理解吗？ 那就是心理上的一次生命和心理上的多次生命。 你我毫无偏见、毫无结论地一起审视了这一点， 我们在观察这个事实，人们是如何被困在这种观念当中的。
47:00 And also we are asking: if there is no tomorrow psychologically, what has happened to your mind, to your action, to your behaviour, to your responsibility? Do you understand my question? Have you understood my question – the question? What is your conduct if there is no tomorrow? Conduct implying responsibility with regard to another in action. Do you understand, sir? Then what is your relationship to another? Please, together we are investigating, don’t look at me and say, ‘Please, tell me’. Because there is no you and I in this thinking, in this observation, in this quality of listening. What is your relationship with another when there is no tomorrow psychologically? Either you despair, because this is a shock to one, do you understand? Either you despair or you give up and say, ‘I don’t know’ – throw it out. But if you are committed to this thinking together and enquiring into the progressive business, and ending of today psychologically, then what takes place actually – actually in the sense that which is happening now in your relationship with another? Relationship being not only physical contact, sex, and all the rest of it, but also the psychological relationship of dependence, attachment, comfort, loneliness, all the rest of it, what takes place? Would you tell me? Or is this totally new to you? You are listening for the first time and therefore there is no immediate response. Right? And why not? You are following all this? I wonder if you are. 而我们也在问： 如果没有心理上的明天，你的心、你的行动、 你的行为和你的责任发生了怎样的变化？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你理解我的这个问题了吗？ 明天如果不存在，你将如何去行动？ 行动暗示着行动中对于他人的责任。 你理解吗，先生？ 你和别人会是什么关系？ 请注意，我们是在一起进行调查， 不要看着我，说“请告诉我”。 因为在这种思考，这种观察当中， 在这种品质的倾听当中是不存在你和我的。 如果没有心理上的明天，你和别人 会是怎样的关系呢？ 要么你会感到绝望，因为这让你震惊，你理解吗？ 你要么绝望，要么放弃，说“我不知道，”——把它抛在脑后。 但是如果你决心这样一起思考，去弄明白 进步的问题，在心理上结束今天， 那么实际上发生了什么呢——实际指的是 当前你和别人的关系正在发生的情况？ 关系不只是身体的接触、性等等各种关系， 还包括心理上的依赖、依恋、 安慰和孤独等等各种关系，发生了什么？ 你可以告诉我吗？ 还是说，这对你是全新的东西？ 你是第一次听， 所以，没有立即做出反应。 对吧？ 可是为什么没有呢？ 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 我不知道你们跟上没有？
51:51 If there is no future, no future, the future to which you are accustomed to, we know very well: the picture, the image, the pleasure, desire for success, spiritual and worldly, the priest wanting to become bishop, bishop wanting to become the cardinal, the cardinal becoming the pope – the whole racket of it, and in the world too, then, if you see that implies constant strife, constant battle, a ruthless sense of me aggressively pushing, pushing, pushing. And so in that aggressive achievement there is security, hoping to have security. And in relationship also – security in another, with all its implications: anxiety, jealousy, displeasure, tears – we know all that very well. But if there is no progressive tomorrows, what is one’s relationship to another, intimate or not? Go on, sirs, find out. 如果没有未来， 没有未来，大家对未来习以为常，非常熟悉： 画面、形象，快乐，对于成功的渴望， 在宗教界，在世间，牧师想当主教， 主教想当红衣主教，红衣主教想当教皇， 全都是骗人的勾当，世间也是一样，那么，如果你看到 这意味着不断的争斗，不断的战争， 感受到“我”在咄咄逼人、倾轧排挤时的那种残酷无情。 所以，在那种咄咄逼人的成就当中，存在着安全， 存在着对安全的期望。 而这种从别人那里寻找安全的关系，意味着所有的 焦虑、嫉妒、烦恼和泪水——对此我们都非常熟悉。 但是，如果没有用来进步的明天， 你与别人是什么关系，是亲密了还是疏远了？ 继续先生们，把它弄清楚。
54:34 You see, if you have understood the quality of thinking together, thinking together, not about something, but thinking together, you and I, then where does that thinking together lead in my relationship to another? You are following? The other doesn’t know anything about all this, suppose. The other is attached, and all the rest of it, what is your relationship to the other if there is this quality of thinking which is absolutely together, this is not divisive? Do you want me to tell you? 如果你认识到了一起思考的品质 一起思考，不是对什么事情思考，而是你和我一起来思考， 那么这种一起思考会把我和别人的关系带往何处？ 你跟上了吗？ 另一个人对此一无所知，假设。 他抱有执着，等等，你和他的关系 会怎样？如果存在着这种完全的 一起思考的品质,这是一种不会造成不和的思考。 你们希望我来告诉你吗？
55:55 Questioner: No, sir.

K: Quite right, sir. When you said, ‘No, sir’, then we are together. 		提问者：不用，先生。

克：非常好，先生。 你说“不用，先生”，我们就是在一起的。
56:11 Q: Not quite, sir. K: You see, that is our difficulty. You want to think together with me, and I can’t let go my ambition, my vanity, my prejudice. I can’t let go because you say, ‘Look, let’s think together, so that we have this quality, this spirit of actual co-operation in thinking’. And I can’t, because I am attached to my thinking, to my memories, to my experience, to my accumulated knowledge. So it is I who have created the division, not you. You understand? You understand this? Are you doing that? Because if you are thinking having that spirit, then if there is no tomorrow, what? You are missing the whole thing, come on, sir! 提问者：不完全这样，先生。

克：（笑）你看我们的困难就在这儿。 你希望和我一起思考， 而我不能放弃我的野心、虚荣和偏见。 我不能放弃是因为你说，“喂，咱们一起思考，这样的话 我们的思考中就具有这种品质，这种真正合作的精神”。 而我不能，因为我执着于我的思考、 我的记忆、我的经验和我积累的知识。 所以，是我制造了分裂，而不是你。 你理解吗？ 你理解这一点吗？你是在这么做吗？ 因为如果你在以这种精神 进行思考，那么如果明天不存在，会是什么情况？ 整件事情你还没理解，加把劲儿，先生！
57:43 This is exactly what is going on between you and the speaker. The speaker says, ‘I have no personal problems’, which is a fact. ‘I have no belief’, which is a fact. ‘I have no experience’. I have had a great many but I don’t carry them, they have gone. I am not entrenched in my particular opinion, prejudice, evaluations. Right? Which is a fact. I would be a hypocrite if I said something else. So I say let’s think together and see the beauty of thinking together. And you say, ‘How can I let go my knowledge, my experience, I can’t, I love them’. ‘This is my life’. So you create a division in the world – German, national – you follow? Both outwardly and inwardly. And where there is division, there must be conflict, that is a law: the Catholic, the Protestant, the Communist, the Totalitarian. So the speaker says, ‘Please, my friend, let’s think together’. You understand, sir, what has happened? When we think together, you have lost all your personality. Ah, you don’t see it. You follow? You are no longer Mr. Smith and Mr. K. Oh, come on, sirs! What time is it, sir? 现在你和讲话者之间（笑）就是这种情况。 讲话者说，“我没有任何个人问题”，这是事实。 “我没有信仰”，这是事实。 “我没有经验。” 我曾有过许许多多的经验，但我不带着它们，它们都没了。 我不固执己见，也不为偏见、评价所囿。 对吧？ 这是事实。 我要是说些别的，我就是伪君子。 所以我说，咱们一起来思考，并看到一起思考的美。 而你说 “我怎能抛弃我的知识、我的经验？我做不到，我爱它们。” “这是我的生命。” 于是你在世界上制造了分裂——德国人、国民，你明白吗？ 既有外部分裂，也有内部分裂。 哪里有分裂，哪里必然就有冲突，这是规律： 天主教、新教、共产主义和极权主义。 所以讲话者说，“请注意朋友们，我们一起来思考吧”。 先生，你明白发生什么了吗？ 我们一起思考的时候，你所有个人属性的东西全都不见了。 啊，你没有明白这一点。 你明白吗？ 你就不再是史密斯先生和克先生了。 哦，加把劲儿，先生们！ 现在几点了，先生？
1:00:41 This is the purpose of these talks and dialogues that we together dissolve all our problems because the self-centred problem is greater than the problems of the world – political, energy, various countries divided, that is nothing compared to this. Because once you have resolved this, you are master of the world. You understand? Master. Don’t go off into some... 这就是这些谈话和对话的目的， 就是我们一起来解决我们所有的问题，因为自我中心 的问题比世界的其它问题——政治问题、 能源问题、国家分裂的问题——更重大，与这个相比，那些都不值一提。 因为一旦你解决了这个问题，你就是世界的主人。 你明白吗？ 主人。 别想成了什么...（笑声）
1:01:48 I think that is enough for this morning, isn’t it? 今天上午讲这些就够了，是不是？
1:01:52 Basta? Bene. 够了吗？ 很好。