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SA79T2 - 我们可以共同创造一个美好的社会吗？
第二次公开讲话，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月10日



0:57 Krishnamurti: May we continue with what we were talking about on Sunday morning? Will that be all right? 我们继续周日上午的讨论好吗？ 继续讨论好吗？
1:17 I wonder if you have thought any more about what we were talking on Sunday morning. Whether you have gone into it deeply by yourselves and have come to a certain point, beyond perhaps which you may not be able to go, and if so, we could go into it much further. What we were saying on Sunday morning was that we must have the capacity to think together. The capacity comes naturally and inevitably if one sees the importance and the necessity, in a corrupting world, that to think together does not imply agreement or disagreement, but putting aside one’s own particular point of view, one’s own particular prejudice, opinion, judgement, and having the capacity thus to think together. Because when we think together, there is no division, you are not thinking separately from the speaker. Sorry, I’ve got slight hay fever. Don’t give me medicines. If we are able to think together, the division between you and another comes to an end. There is only thinking, not your way of thinking or another way of thinking, just the capacity to think together. But that is not possible if you don’t put aside your own particular conclusions, your own vanity, your own personal demands, otherwise there is no coming together. 大家有没有进一步思考过 周日上午我们所讨论的内容？ 是否凭借自己的力量去调查， 深入到某种程度并超越过去，也许 你没能做到这一步，那样的话，我们来更加深入地探讨一下吧。 我们周日上午说到， 我们必须具备一起思考的能力。 在一个腐败的世界上，看到一起思考的重要性和必要性之后， 你自然就有了这种能力，这是必然的。一起思考 不是同意或者反对，而是放下 自己的那个观点、放下自己的那个偏见和 评判，让自己具备这种能力，从而一起来思考。 因为当我们一起思考的时候就不存在分裂， 你和讲话者就不是分别去思考。 抱歉，我得了轻微的花粉热。 不用给我吃药。 如果我们能够一起思考， 你和他人之间的分歧就会结束。 存在的只有思考，不是你的思考方式 或者另一种思考方式，就是一起思考的能力。 但是你要是不把你自己的结论、 虚荣和个人的要求 放在一边，那就是不可能的，我们就走不到一起来。
4:46 The word ‘together’ means walking together, being together all the time, not you walk ahead and the other walks behind, but walking together means we are both going along the same way, not thinking different things, observing the same thing, not translating what you observed in your own particular inclination or prejudice, but observing together, listening together, walking together. “一起”这个词意味着一块儿走，始终待在一起， 不是你在前面走，其他人跟在后面，一起走 意味着我们一块儿沿着相同的路在走， 没有思考不同的事情，而是观察相同的事情， 不根据自己的特殊倾向或者 偏见进行转述，只是一起观察、一块儿聆听、一道走。
5:31 I wonder if you realise – when that takes place, what happens between two human beings? There is great demand, a great urge in this present permissive society that each one of us must fulfil, sexually, emotionally, and so on – the desire to fulfil. And with it goes naturally the whole problem of frustration. Please, listen carefully to what I am pointing out. Don’t accept or deny what we are talking about, but we are thinking together, and I mean thinking together. 不知道你是否认识到 出现那种情况时，两人之间会发生什么？ 在当前这个放纵的社会里， 人们欲求极多，我们每个人都渴望 在性，在情绪等方面得到满足——得到满足的渴望。 随之而来的自然就是整个的挫折感的问题。 请仔细听我正在指出的问题。 不要接受或者否定我们正在谈的东西， 而是我们正在一起思考，我的意思是一起思考。
6:33 When one is seeking fulfilment in another or desiring to be and become and therefore act, which is a form of fulfilment, then in that movement there is frustration, all kinds of neurotic ideas, neurosis, and so on, so on. But when we think together, that is, you have dropped your particular opinion, judgement, and so on, and the other has also dropped his, there is no division and therefore there is no sense of fulfilment – I wonder if you get this – and therefore no sense of frustration. Please, this is not a verbal conclusion, an idealistic concept, something to be achieved, but the realisation of the actual fact that as long as we are not thinking together about everything – politics, religion, economics, personal relationships, and so on – thinking together, there must be division, and out of that division there arises the desire to fulfil, and inevitable sequence of that is frustration with all its neurosis and all the inevitable reactions. When we think together, all that comes to an end. I wonder if you are following this. 当你从别人那里寻求满足或者渴望自己是什么、 成为什么，并由此行动的时候，那也是一种满足的形式， 那么，在这种运动中就有挫折感， 就包含着所有那些神经质的想法和神经症等层出不穷的反应。 而在我们一起思考的时候，就是 你放下了你的那些观点、评判等等， 另一个人把他的那些东西也放下， 就不存在分歧，因此就没有满足感， 不知道你有没有理解这一点——因此也就没有挫折感了。 请注意，这不是言语上的结论，不是一个理想主义的概念， 也不是某种要去达成的事情，而是对实际情况的认识， 就是说，每个问题，只要我们没有一起去思考， 不管是政治问题、宗教问题、经济问题还是个人关系等等， 只要那样，就一定会存在分歧，从那个分歧当中 就会升起对于满足的渴望，这必然 会导致挫折感——所有的神经症以及各种不可避免的反应。 我们一起思考时，这一切就结束了。 不知这些你跟上没有。
8:54 If one may ask, you have, perhaps some of you, listened to Sunday morning’s talk and have you inwardly dropped your personal opinion, your conclusion, your experience? Or you hold on to them, consciously or unconsciously, and make an effort to think together? And of course, that is rather childish, which only maintains a certain verbal communication, but in actuality there is division and therefore there is conflict. When we think together, conflict comes to an end. I wonder if you see this? Please, you must get this. Because we human beings for millennia upon millennia have lived with conflict – struggle, strife of various kinds: physical, psychological, emotional, exploiting each other – the whole human relationship is based on that. And in thinking together, relationship undergoes a fundamental change, because there is no division. If you are ambitious and another is not ambitious, there is division. If you believe in God or in Jesus or Krishna, whatever it is, and the other doesn’t, there is division and therefore there is conflict. You may tolerate each other, that is what is happening now, but division exists – nationalism, and so on. So if we could during these talks, – I don’t know how many of them, I believe ten or so – if we could, a group of us, all of us if we can, at least a few of us, apply our minds to find out if we can absolutely think together. Therefore when we do that, the relationship between us completely undergoes a change. Right? I wonder if you see this? 容我问一下，听了周日上午的 谈话，可能你们当中有些人从心里放下了 他个人的观点、结论和经验，是这样吗？ 还是说，你一边有意无意地执着那些东西， 一边却又在为一起思考而努力？ 显然，那是相当幼稚的，那样的话，我们不过就是 在做某种言语上的交流，可实际上 是存在着分歧的，因而存在着冲突。 我们一起思考的时候，冲突就结束了。 不知你是否明白这一点？ 请注意，一定要明白这一点。 因为几千年来，我们人类 一直生活在冲突当中——挣扎，身体上、 心理上和情绪上的各种斗争，彼此剥削， 整个人类的关系都是建立在这个基础之上的。 一起思考， 关系会发生根本的变化，因为分歧不存在了。 你有野心，而他没有野心，这就是分歧。 你信仰上帝或者耶稣或者奎师那，不管是什么， 而另一个人不信，你们之间就存在分歧，就会有冲突。 也许你们能够彼此容忍，现在就是这种情况， 可是分歧，也就是分裂，比如国家主义等等依然存在。 所以在这些谈话的过程中， 如果我们，我不知道会有多少人，我相信会有十个左右——如果我们能 有一部分人，如果我们所有人，至少我们中间有几个人 用心去弄明白我们是否可以完完全全地一起思考。 那么我们这么做的时候， 我们之间的关系就会发生一个彻底的转变。 对吧？大家明白吗？
12:09 And also we were saying on Sunday, psychologically thought has accepted the progressive evolutionary process, and therefore it is always trying to become something, or be something. And we talked about time, if there is – please listen, play with it – if there is psychological time at all tomorrow, if there is psychologically the future. If there is not, then what is the relationship between two human beings who have no future? You understand? You are following my question? Not my question, it is your question. You may not have put it to yourself, but it is being put forward. So you have to look at it. 上周日我们还谈到，思想在心理上 认可了进步这种进化过程，所以 它总在努力成为什么，或者努力是什么。 我们讨论了时间，是否存在——请听，也在心里玩味一下， 到底是否存在心理上的时间， 是否存在心理上的未来。 如果不存在，那么两个没有未来的人， 他们之间是什么样的关系？ 你理解吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 它不是我的问题，而是你们的问题。 你们可能不曾问过自己这个问题，但是现在它摆在了你们眼前。 所以，你们得去正视它。
13:39 We have, throughout the centuries, religiously, politically, and in different ways, have accepted this idea of gradualness. Right? That is obvious. Gradually I will become perfect, gradually I will be less this and more that. In this gradational conclusion and evolution, measurement has become important. Naturally. You follow all this? That is, measurement – what one was, what one is and what one will be – which is a measurement. Measurement is time, and we are questioning, questioning together, if there is psychological time at all. There is chronological time, obviously, because we are going to meet if you want to, the day after tomorrow morning – that is obvious. If you want to go and play golf or go to the cinema or whatever it is, there is the day after tomorrow. But psychologically, inwardly, is there time? Or thought has invented time, psychologically, because it is too lazy, indolent and also because it doesn’t know how to deal with what is actually happening. Therefore it says: give me time. One does not know how to be free of envy, but I’ll think about it, I’ll work at it and gradually get rid of it – if you want. But if you like to keep it, that’s all right. 多少世纪以来，我们以宗教、政治 和各种不同的方式认可了渐变的观念。 对吧？那是显而易见的。 逐渐地，我会变得完美无缺，逐渐地，我会不再如何和更加如何。 在这种渐变的结论 和进化当中，度量变得重要起来。 这是不言而喻的。这些大家都清楚吗？ 那就是度量， 你过去怎样，现在怎样和将会怎样——这就是度量。 度量是时间，我们在质疑， 我们一起质疑，到底是否存在心理时间。 显然，按发生顺序排列的时间是存在的，因为要是你想来的话， 我们计划在后天上午见面，显然那种时间是存在的。 如果你想去打高尔夫球或者去看电影 或者随便做什么，后天就是存在的。 但是在心理上，内心里，存在时间吗？ 还是说，思想发明了时间，思想在心理上发明了时间， 因为它太懒散，太懈怠，也因为 它不知道如何处理实际正在发生的事情。 于是它说给我时间。 你不知道如何摆脱嫉妒，但是我要对它进行思考， 我要对它展开工作，然后逐步摆脱它——如果你愿意的话。 而如果你喜欢保留它，那也没关系。
16:09 So this has been our conditioning. Right? You are following this? Not verbally, please, watch it in your own self. This has been your conditioning, and somebody comes along like the speaker and says, ‘Is this so?’ You have accepted it, this has been the tradition, educated tradition, not a superstition, because all people have – scientists and others have talked about the ascent of man through accumulation of knowledge, which is time, and so on – you have accepted it. And the speaker comes along and says, ‘Look, you may be all wrong, question it’. So he says, perhaps there is no psychologically tomorrow. You understand it? No, see the importance of this question. What happens to you if you put that question very seriously, not as an idea, but as an actuality? Actuality means that which is happening now. Right? If you put that question to yourself, then what is the quality of the mind that does not think of tomorrow psychologically? You follow? You have got my question? Right? What happens if there is no future psychologically – there is a future: you have to go and have your lunch, you have to sleep, you have to do this and that – but psychologically, if there is no future, what is your relationship with another? You have got this? You have understood this? Have you solved this question which was put forward yesterday? What is your relationship with your wife or girlfriend, or with your... etc., if there is no tomorrow? If you have tomorrow, psychologically, then you create the image, you pursue that image about her or him, you have the memory cultivated in relation to that person, and you act according to that memory, to that experience. You pursue that. Right? So, when there is psychologically a future, then it becomes mechanistic. You follow what I mean by mechanistic – routine, repetition, acting on remembrance. Now, if there is no psychologically tomorrow, what has taken place in your relationship? In your relationship, not as an idea, in your actual relationship to your wife, to your husband, to your friend, to your boy, to your girl, what actually takes place? You understand this? Are you interested in this? Which means you have not only investigated the concept, the conditioning of psychological future and have understood the whole significance of it, rationally, sanely, logically, and said, ‘That may not be’. So you have hesitantly moved away from your conditioning. And when you put this question, your mind is free to observe, is no longer tethered to your conditioning that there is a future. You have got it? What is your relationship to another when tomorrow psychologically is not there? 这已经成了我们的制约。 对吧？ 这一点清楚吗？ 不是在言语上理解，请在你自己身上观察它。 这成了你们的制约， 有个人，比如讲话者走过来说：“是这样吗？” 你已经相信它了，这成了传统，这是教育带来的传统， 而不是迷信，因为所有的人——科学家们和其他一些人 都说过，凭借知识的积累， 也就是时间，人类取得了进步等等——你已经相信它了。 而讲话者走过来说： “瞧，可能你们都错了，请质疑它”。 所以他说可能心理上并不存在明天。 你理解吗？ 不，你要看到这个问题的重要性。 如果你非常严肃地，不是作为理念 而是作为现实来提出这个问题，你会怎样？ 现实意味着现在正在发生的事情。 对吧？ 如果你问自己这个问题，那么这个在心理上 不考虑明天的头脑是什么样的品质？ 跟上了吗？你明白我的问题吗？ 对吧？ 如果没有心理上的未来会怎样——存在着一种未来： 你必须得去吃午饭，你必须得睡觉， 你必须做这个、做那个——但是在心理上 如果不存在未来，你和别人会是什么关系？ 你明白了吗？ 这一点你理解了吗？ 昨天我提的这个问题，你们解决了吗？ 如果没有明天，你同你的妻子 或者女朋友或者你的什么…等等会是怎样的关系？ 如果有心理上的明天，你就会制造出形象， 就会追逐这个关于她或者他的形象， 你在和那个人的关系中培养出了记忆， 并根据那个记忆、那个经验采取行动。 你追逐那个东西。 对吧？ 所以，心理上存在未来，行动就会变得机械。 你知道我说的机械是指 例行公事、反复重复和根据记忆行动。 那么当心理上没有明天， 你的关系中会出现什么情况？ 在你的关系当中，不是作为一种理念， 而是在你和你的妻子、丈夫、朋友， 你的男友、女友之间的实际关系当中，事实上出现了什么情况？ 你理解吗？ 你们对此感兴趣吗？ 那意味着你不只探究了这个概念， 心理上的未来造成制约， 还理智稳健、逻辑清楚地 认识到了它的整个意义，你说道：“可能不是那么回事”。 于是，你迟疑地摆脱了你的制约。 在问这个问题的时候，你的头脑就是在自由地观察， 那个“存在着未来”的制约就牵绊不了你了。 理解了吗？ 当心理上没有明天的时候， 你和别人是什么关系？
21:58 Perhaps we could approach – I don’t want to answer this question, we’ll find out for ourselves as we go along. I know you are waiting for me to answer it, which would be – there is no point, it would become verbal, rather silly. But if you could pursue that thing in a different direction, perhaps we will catch the inward significance and the beauty and the truth of it. 可能我们可以着手——我不想回答这个问题， 在我们一起走的过程中我们会自己弄明白的。 我知道你们在等着我来回答，但那毫无意义， 它就成了言语上的东西了，那么做是相当愚蠢的。 而如果你能够从不同的方向来探究那件事情， 我们可能就会捕捉到它内在的意义、它的美和真相。
22:42 The ancient Hindus and the Greeks formulated a concept of a good society. Don’t get bored with this. They said a good society is this, this, this. The Greeks said a good society is justice, and so on, so on. The ancient Hindus said a good society is only possible if there are a group of people who have renounced the world – please, careful, I am not asking you to do it, anything, I am pointing out – who do not own property, who are outside society, and being outside society, they are responsible to the activities of the society. You follow? Not that they withdraw, but being outside society, they are morally incorruptible, because they didn’t own property of any kind. And they were morally, ethically, religiously clear. They would not kill, and so on, so on. And for a certain time, probably, that existed. Then it, like everything else, it degenerated into what the world knows as a Brahmin. 古印度和古希腊人定义了什么是美好的社会。 不要对此感到厌倦。 他们说美好的社会是这样、这样、这样的。 希腊人说美好社会是公平，等等、等等。 古印度人说只有当存在这样一群 弃绝这个世界的人的时候，美好社会才可能存在——请注意 小心，我没有要你们去做这个，或者别的什么，我是在指出， 那些人不拥有财产，置身社会之外，因为身处社会之外， 他们对于社会的活动负起了责任。 跟上了吗？ 不是因为他们退隐，而是因为他们身处社会之外， 在道德上不受腐蚀，因为他们不拥有任何形式的财产。 他们在道德上、伦理上、宗教上清白无暇。 他们不会去做杀生之类的事。 可能在一个特定的阶段，存在着这样一群人。 后来，像所有事情一样， 它蜕变成了今天世人所知道的婆罗门阶层。
25:23 The Greeks had the same idea: that a good society must exist in the world. And it was an idealistic, formulated, ideological society. Ideas – you understand? – ideals, and according to them, they formulated very carefully, the Aristotelian, and so on, society, but never existed. 希腊人有同样的构想：美好社会必须存于世间。 那是一个理想主义、程式化和意识形态的社会。 信念——你们理解吗？——理想，他们据此非常细心地规划， 亚里士多德模式的社会，等等，可是那种社会从未存在过。
26:11 Now we are saying – please, listen – can we bring about a good society, not ideologically, not as a utopia, as something to be done, achieved, but a society, which means a relationship between two people is society. You are following all this? Can we as a group create such a good society? Now wait a minute. The Greeks formulated, the Hindus formulated and probably the Chinese, but we are not formulating anything. We are not saying the ideal – society must be this, this, this. We are not saying that because that becomes a utopia, an ideal to be pursued – you are following all this? – something to be done. We are talking about a good society which can only come into being when you as a human being, representative of all mankind – I’m coming to that, hold on to it – are responsible to another human being. When we say you are the whole of mankind, psychologically you are. Right? You may have a different shape of head, lighter skin or darker skin, better food – therefore you are taller, in a temperate climate, your name may be different, but psychologically we live at the same level – sorrow, pain, anxiety, frustration, a sense of hopeless loneliness, great sorrow. You follow? This exists right through the world. This is a fact, it is not an idea which you accept. If you go to India, you see the same phenomena there as here. They are darker people, over-populated, poverty, but psychologically they are anxious, insecure, confused, miserable, worship something which they imagine, just like here. So there is great similarity. And psychologically it is the same movement, varied, modified, but the source of this movement is the same for all mankind – right? You see this? Not as an idea but as an actuality, that is, what is happening. Right? So you are the rest of mankind. If you see that, you won’t give such tremendous importance to yourself, your personal anxieties, your personal fulfilment, you know, all the self-centred egotistic problems, because you are like everybody else. But you have to solve it. Right? 那么我们说的是——请听好——我们能否创造一个美好的社会， 不是意识形态的社会，不是乌托邦的社会，不是什么要完成、要实现的事情， 而是一个社会， 两个人之间的关系就是社会。 所有这些大家都清楚吗？ 作为一个群体我们能否创造出这样一个美好的社会？ 稍等一下。 希腊人规划过，印度人规划过，可能中国人...， 可是我们不做任何规划。 我们说的不是理想——社会必须如何如何。 我们说的不是那个，因为那样的话它就成了乌托邦，就成了一个要去 追逐的理想——这些你们都跟上了吗？——就成了要去完成的事情。 我们在谈美好社会，它只有当你作为一个人类， 作为人类的代表——我就要谈到那个， 先把它放在这儿——对另一个人类负有责任的时候才会到来。 在我们说你是整个人类的时候，指的是你在心理上是整个人类。 对吧？ 你头颅的形状可能有所不同，你的肤色可能浅一点或者深一点， 你可能饮食好，所以个子高，你生活的环境可能气候温和， 你可能有一个不同的名字， 但是在心理上，我们生活在相同的层面——我们都承受着悲伤、痛苦、 焦虑和挫折，都感到绝望、孤独和巨大的悲伤。 跟上了吗？ 全世界的人心中都有这种东西。 这是事实，不是你认可的观点。 如果你去印度，在那儿会看到和这里一样的现象。 他们肤色深些，人口过剩， 生活贫穷，但是在心理上他们也感到焦虑、不安、困惑 和悲苦，他们也崇拜一些他们想象出来的东西，就和这里一样。 所以，存在着极大的相似性。 在心理上这是相同的运动，虽然有变化和调整， 但是对于所有人类，这种运动的根源是一样的——对吧？ 你看到这一点了吗？ 不是作为观点而是作为事实，作为正在发生的事情。 对吧？ 所以你就是其他的人类。 如果你看到了那一点，你就不会把你自己个人的 焦虑、你个人的满足看得如此重要了，你知道所有那些 自我中心的个人主义的问题因为你和其他所有人都是一样的。 可是你必须解决这个问题。 对吧？
30:59 So, we are saying – I am getting rather tired, are you? – we are saying a good society can come into being immediately, not something to be achieved in the future. That good society can come into being only when we think together, which means no division between you and another. Then our whole conduct changes. Right, do you see that? Then one does not exploit the other, either sexually or in various psychological subtle ways. Right? At least verbally follow this. But verbally means nothing, like following empty air, holding empty ashes in your empty hand. 所以我们说的是——我够累的了，你们累了吗？ 我们说美好社会马上就可以出现， 而不是要在未来去实现。 只有我们一起思考，只有当你和别人之间 没有划分的时候，美好社会才会出现。 那时我们的全部行为就都发生了变化。 对吧，你看到那一点了吗？ 那时，你不会去剥削别人，无论是在性关系上 还是通过各种心理上的微妙方式，你都不会。 对吧？ 至少在言语上理解吧。 但是在言语上的理解毫无意义， 就像是在追逐空气，两手空空，只有一把灰烬。
32:31 So, we are saying a good society, which must exist in this terrible world, in this murderous world, immoral society, if a group of us can think together, therefore I asked: what is the relationship of you to another if there is no psychological future? You see, you understand what has happened? Do you… What has happened to a mind – please, listen – what has happened to a mind that has been accustomed, trained, educated, conditioned to accept the whole pattern of a life which is based on the future? That has been your way of life. In that is involved the constant effort to become, to achieve – competition, comparison, imitation, the struggle. If intelligently you don’t accept that way of living, which means that you do not accept in your relationship with another future, then what takes place in your mind, what has happened to your mind? 所以，我们说，在这个可怕的世界上，在这个残忍的世界上， 在这个不道德的社会里，美好社会必须存在，如果我们当中的一群人 能够一起思考的话，所以我问：当没有心理上的未来的时候， 你和别人会是什么样的关系？ 你看到，你认识到发生什么情况了吗？ 你是否…心会怎样——请听好—— 那颗心经过适应，受到训练、教育和制约， 接受了整个这种基于未来的生活模式，这颗心会怎样？ 那曾经是你的生活方式。 那里面包含着为了成为什么和 达到什么而不停地进行的努力，包含着竞争、比较和模仿，即斗争。 如果你富有智慧地拒绝接受那种生活方式， 即在你的关系中你不相信另一个未来， 那么你的心中出现了什么情况，你的心会怎样？
35:09 This is an important question if you can solve it for yourself – not solve it. If your mind has that quality that is not acting – please, listen – from an ideological point of view, having an ideal and acting according to that ideal, which means division therefore no ideals whatever, and therefore no attempt to achieve something other than understand what is actually happening. Have you understood this? Are you all asleep? 这是一个重要的问题， 如果你能够替你自己解决这个问题——而不是解决它。 如果你的心具备那种品质，它不是， 请听好——根据理想主义的观点，怀有一个理想 并根据那个理想展开行动，因为那意味着分裂， 那样的话，你就不再怀抱任何理想，你只是去认识 实际正在发生的事情，而毫无达成什么的企图。 明白了吗？ 你们都睡着了？
36:36 Q: No. 问：没有。
36:46 K: You come and tell me that there is no tomorrow. I listen very carefully to what you say because perhaps you have something, a way of living in which there is no conflict. You come and tell me that. First, I ask myself: am I listening to you? Am I actually absorbing what you are saying? Or am I translating what you’re saying into an idea and accepting the idea – follow it carefully! – and rejecting or accepting that idea and then say – how am I to live according to that idea? You follow? That is what you are all doing. Whereas the man says: don’t do that, but just listen. Listen to the fact that you have lived this way, see all the consequences of living that way, what are the implications, logically, step by step. You have lived that way and therefore you have become, your mind has become completely mechanistic – routine, repeat, repetition, following. If you see that very carefully, he says to me, find out for yourself what happens if you do not think in terms of the future. What happens to you in your relationship with another? With the other is equally thinking with you. You understand? He also says, ‘Yes, I see that’. So let both of us think together. I drop my opinions, drop my prejudices, so on, so we are together thinking. Do you follow? Then what happens? Because we have… all of us want, desire, long for a good society where we don’t hurt each other, kill each other, maim each other, go to war against each other, live in perpetual insecurity, frightened. We all want a society of a different kind. Some have said – please, listen – some have said you can have such a good society if you alter the circumstances, the environment. The Communists, the Socialists, all the rest of the world, says change all that through law, democratically if you can, if you cannot – totalitarian – suppress, conform, force, but change the environment. They have tried it in ten different ways – that has never happened. Man has not changed. Either as a Christian human being, or a Hindu, he has not changed radically. Why? Is it an economic reason? Is it a matter of belief? You believe in Jesus, another doesn’t. Why? Why has there been in the world thousands and thousands of years this constant division? The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians, you know, the whole division – why? Is it because no two human beings have ever found out how to think together? You understand my point? You and I can’t think together. I want to. The speaker says, ‘For god’s sake, let’s think together because we will create a different world altogether’. But you say, ‘Sorry, I want my opinions, I like my opinions, I cannot let go my experiences, my pleasures’. So it keeps that division going. 克：你走过来告诉我说没有明天。 我非常仔细地听你说，因为你可能拥有 一种毫无冲突的生活之道。 你来告诉我这些东西。 我首先问我自己：我是在听你讲话吗？ 我实际上是在消化理解你讲的东西？ 还是说，我在把你讲的东西转述成为一个观点，我相信这个观点， 小心地照着它去做——拒绝接受或者相信那个观点，然后我说 我怎样才能按照那个观点生活呢？ 跟上了吗？ 你们全都是那么做的。 而那个人说，别那样做，只是去听就好。 你听这个事实，你们是这样生活过来的，看这种生活方式带来的 所有后果，那都意味着什么，你要逻辑清楚、一步一步地去看。 你们这样生活过来，所以你们已经，你们的心已经 完全机械了——只会例行公事，只会人云亦云，只会反复重复，只会亦步亦趋。 如果你对此看得非常仔细，他对我说，你亲自去弄清楚， 如果不从未来的角度去思考，会发生什么。 你和别人的关系会发生什么变化？ 那个在和你同样一起思考的人。 你明白吗？ 他也说：“是的，我明白了。” 那么咱们两个一起思考吧。 我放下我的观点，我的偏见，等等，于是我们就在一起思考。 你明白吗？ 然后会发生什么？ 因为我们…所有人都期待、渴望和憧憬一个美好的社会， 那时我们不再彼此伤害，不再互相杀戮、互相残害， 不再有敌对战争，不再生活在无尽无休的不安和恐惧当中。 我们都期待一个不同的社会。 有人说过——请听好——有人说过改变条件和环境， 你就可以拥有这样美好的社会。 共产主义者、社会主义者，世界上所有其他的人，都说通过法律 来改变所有一切，如果可以就采用民主的方式，如果不行 就采用极权的方式——采用压制、服从、强制， 改变环境的方式。 他们试过十种不同的方式——可是美好的社会从未实现过。 人并未改变过。 人类，无论作为基督教徒，还是印度教教徒，都没有根本改变。 为什么？ 是经济原因造成的吗？ 这是信仰的问题吗？ 你信耶稣，另一个人不信。 为什么？ 为什么几千年来世界 一直处于分裂状态？ 埃及人、希腊人、罗马人、波斯人， 你知道，整个的分裂——为什么？ 是不是因为从来没有两个人弄明白过该如何一起思考。 你理解我的观点吗？ 你和我不能一起思考。 我想一起思考。 讲话者说：“看在上帝的份上，咱们一起思考吧， 这样我们就可以一起创造一个完全不同的世界。” 而你却说：“抱歉，我需要我的那些观点， 我喜欢我的观点，我不能放弃我的经验、我的快乐。” 这就使得分裂继续存在。
42:45 Now we are saying: can you put aside all your stupid, you know, worthless things – opinions, experiences; they are dead, gone, finished, and say, ‘Let’s think together’. So our minds, not your mind is different from mine, there is only one mind when we are together – you understand this? – then what is the relationship of that mind to another mind in daily life? Go on, sirs. 我们说的是：你能否把所有你那些愚蠢的，你知道， 无用的东西——观点、经验， 它们是死的、消失和结束了的东西，放在一边说：“咱们一起思考。” 于是我们的心，不是你的心和我的心不一样， 我们在一起的时候就只有一颗心——你认识到了吗？ 然后，在日常生活中，那颗心和另一颗心之间是怎样的关系？ 继续，先生们。
43:35 Q: Is that a rhetorical question, sir? Because if not I would like to reply but I don’t want to interrupt your talk. 问：那是一个反问的问题吗，先生？ 因为如果不是，我想来回答，可是我不想打断你的讲话。
43:49 K: I can’t hear, sir – somebody, have you heard? 克：我听不见，先生——有谁听到了，你听到了吗？

问：他说，那是反问吗。
43:54 Q: He says, is it a rhetorical question. 克：不，不是反问。
43:56 K: No, it is not a rhetorical question. 问：你是想从听众，而不是你自己
43:59 Q: Can you say you want to get an answer from the audience, not from yourself? 那里得到一个回答，是吗？
44:04 K: That is why I am waiting, sir.

Q: I am giving you one now, sir. 		克：我在等这个，先生。

问：现在我给你一个回答，先生。
44:07 K: Oh, no, not one answer. 克：哦不，不是一个回答。

问：我只能给你我的回答。
44:09 Q: I can only give you my answer. I can’t answer for anybody else? 我无法替其他人回答…
44:12 K: Ah! Then we are not thinking together. No, no, that is the whole point, sir. Please, forgive me. There is no your point of view and my point of view. 克：啊！那么我们就没有在一起思考。 不对，这就是重点，先生。 请原谅我这么说。 不存在你的观点和我的观点。
44:27 Q: I never said point of view, sir. 问：我未曾说过观点，先生。

克：你表达的方式。
44:32 K: Your way of expressing it. 问：不是，先生，我想说的只是这个：你说如果
44:35 Q: No, sir, what I wanted to say was just this: you said, if there was no psychological time, what is your relationship with another? My answer to that is: wait till Thursday and I can tell you because right now I cannot tell you. I have quarrelled with my wife for twenty years. 没有心理时间，你和别人的关系是怎样的？ 对此我的回答是：我要等到周四 才能告诉你，因为我不能马上告诉你。 我和我的妻子争吵了二十年…
44:54 K: So, are you saying, sir, that I cannot tell you about it now. I have done this for twenty years, I cannot tell you now but perhaps later on in the future? 克：所以，你是说，先生，我现在不能告诉你这个。 我这么做已经有二十年了， 我现在不能告诉你，可是随后在将来可能会？
45:09 Q: On Thursday, sir. In the past, I have listened to you in the way that is not listening at all. Right now I feel maybe I am on your wavelength, but I need a little bit of time to experiment with this. I cannot give you the answer immediately and tell you what is my relationship with another when I have not had the opportunity to observe what is happening in daily life. Sitting here...

K: That is what I am saying, sir. Yes, sir, I have understood your question. I haven’t had the opportunity to put this question to myself, I must have time and then I will answer you. I say you are off. I say you are then not meeting. I love you. And what happens to such a mind that says, I have no division? Now, not I will think it over, I will work at it – then you are... 		问：在周四，先生。 过去我一直是在以一种根本不是倾听的方式听您讲话的。 就在刚才我感觉可能和您的波段一致了， 但是我需要一点时间对此试验一下。 我不能马上回答您和告诉您 我和别人的关系如何，我还没有 机会去观察日常生活中发生的情况。 坐在这里…

克：那就是我在说的问题，先生。 是的先生，我明白你的问题。 我还没有机会问自己这个问题， 我必须有时间，然后我会回答你。 我说你理解偏了。 我说那样的话你我就没有沟通上。 我爱你。 对于这样一个说我没有划分的心，发生了什么情况？ 不是我来思考，我来处理这个——然后你…

问：心是开放的。

克：不，你没有理解我的意思，先生。
46:19 Q: It’s open. 问：你不可能知道发生了什么。
46:24 K: No, you are not meeting my point, sir. 克：怎么了，夫人？
46:27 Q: Well, you cannot possibly know what happens. 问：我觉得你要是在一起思考，你就无法知道发生了什么事情。
46:30 K: Comment, madame? 克：现在你知道你和别人是什么关系吗？
46:31 Q: I think, if you are thinking together, you can’t know what happens. 问：不知道。
46:41 K: Do you know what your relationship is with another now? 克：你现在不知道和别人的关系，
46:46 Q: No. 你现在知道你和你的妻子、朋友、你的男友、女友是什么关系吗？
46:51 K: You don’t know what your relationship with another is now, with your wife, your friend, your girl or boy, do you know what it is now? 问：不知道。

克：你不知道？
47:00 Q: No. 问：我们知道，可是…（听不见）

克：我在问你。你知道吗？
47:02 K: You don’t know? 问：当然知道。
47:06 Q: We know but... 问：我不知道。
47:10 K: I am asking you. So you know? 克：这位女士说她不知道。
47:12 Q: Of course. 你的男友或者你先生会相信吗？（笑声）
47:13 Q: I don’t know. 你是在玩游戏。
47:19 K: The lady says she doesn’t know. Will your boyfriend and husband accept that? You are playing games. 让我们换个方式提问。
47:44 Let’s put the question differently. What shall we do together to bring about a change in the world? We all say change is necessary. We see things are degenerating, you know what is happening in the world, terrible things are happening in the world. And what shall we do together – please, listen – to change this? 要想给世界带来改变，我们需要一起做什么？ 我们都说必须改变。 我们看到情况在恶化，你知道世界上正在发生什么， 正在发生一些可怕的事情。 要改变这种局面——请听——我们应该一起来做什么？
48:21 Q: We have to change ourselves.

K: No, wait, wait. I am coming to that. Don’t say change ourselves. You have had 50 years. 		问：我们必须改变我们自己…

克：不，等一下，等一下。 我就要说到那个问题。 不要说改变我们自己。你已经听了50年了。
48:29 Q: 52.

K: 52! You have had 52 years, why in the name of heavens haven’t you changed? So it means you are accepting the future. Something will happen to make you change. My question then, ask, sir: what shall we do together? – please, listen. Though you have listened to the speaker for 52 years or 10 years or 5 years, what shall we do together to bring about a new society? 		问：52年.

克：52年！（笑声） 你已经听了52年了，看在上天的份上你为什么没有改变？ 所以，这意味着你相信未来。 未来会发生什么事情，会使你改变。 那么我问您的问题就是，先生：我们一起来做什么？——请注意听。 尽管你听讲话者已经有52年或者10年 或者5年，要带来一个新的社会，我们需要一起做些什么？
49:28 The Catholics at one time in history, they were terribly united. Anybody who disagreed were tortured, inquisitioned, burnt. But for a time they held it, because they had the same belief, same – you know, all the rest of it. Now all that is gone – nobody believes in anything. And we see the society as it is. What shall we do together? When one is put that question, each one has different plans – right? different ideas, different concepts: do this, don’t do that, we must all join together to elect a new president, a new politician – you follow? 历史上一个时期，基督教会极为团结。 谁要是反对他们就会遭到酷刑的折磨和宗教审判，就会被烧死。 但是他们维持了一段时间，因为他们有相同的信仰，相同 其它各种你所知道的东西。 现在所有那些东西都不复存在——谁都不再相信任何东西。 我们看到社会成了现在这个样子。 我们应该一起做些什么？ 对于这个问题，每个人都有不同的计划——对吧？ 不同的观点，不同的概念：要这么做，不要那么做，我们必须 联合起来选举一个新的总统，一个新的政治家——你明白吗？
50:41 So I am asking: will a belief bring us together? Right? 所以我在问：信仰会把我们聚在一起吗？对吗？
50:49 Q: No.

K: It can’t. Wait. Will authority bring us together?

Q: No. 		问：不会。

克：它不能。且慢。 权威会让我们走到一起吗？

问：不会。
51:03 K: I promise you a reward.

Q: No. 		克：我答应给你奖赏。

问：不会。
51:09 K: You will reach Nirvana if you do this. 克：这么做你就会涅槃。

问：不会。
51:14 Q: No. 克：或者你不这么做就会下地狱。
51:16 K: Or if you don’t do this, you will go to hell. Reward and punishment, on which we have lived. 奖赏和惩罚，我们一直依靠这个过活。
51:27 So what will bring us together? Belief won’t, authority of any kind is rejected, the reward by another as a means for you to change is also rejected. And if you say you are going to be punished in heaven for not obeying, you say, ‘Go away, don’t be silly’, and you pass him. So what will make us come together? 所以，能够让我们来到一起的是什么呢？ 信仰不能，任何形式的权威都被否定了， 别人用奖赏来让你改变，这种手段也被否定了。 如果有人说，假如你不服从就会在天堂里遭到惩罚， 你说：“走开，别犯傻”，你不去理他。 所以，能够让我们走到一起来的是什么呢？
52:03 Q: Try to listen. 问：努力去听。
52:12 K: But you won’t listen if you are prejudiced. Right? So will you drop your prejudice? We come back to the same thing. Will you drop your personal desire for some extraordinary evolutionary utopia, enlightenment? Drop your idea of what meditation must be? Can you let go all that? And will it take another 52 years, you say, ‘Yes, at the end of it, I am dying, but I hope I will give it up’. You follow? So what will bring us together? You put that question. 克：可是如果你有偏见，你就不会去听。 对吧？ 所以，你能放下你的偏见吗？ 我们又回到同样的事情上来了。 通过逐步进化实现令人惊奇的乌托邦和 觉悟，你能把个人的这种欲望放下吗？ 你能把冥想一定是什么的观念放下吗？ 你能放弃所有这些东西吗？ 这要花另一个52年，你说 “是的，到最后，我要死了，不过我希望我会把它放弃的。” 你理解吗？ 那么能够让我们走到一起来的是什么呢？ 你来问这个问题。
53:10 Q: We have not asked, I don’t know why. 问：我们没有问过，我不知道为什么。
53:13 K: Only when we are able to think together. Right, sir? When you and I see the same thing. Not you see the thing differently and I see it differently. When both of us see something actually happening as it is, then we can both look at it. But if you say that is not happening, only it is imagination, or it is this, that or the other – you follow what I am saying? So what will make us come together? I am not talking sexually, in this permissive world that is the most silly obvious thing, and we think that is being together. 克：只有在我们能够一起思考的时候。 对吧，先生？ 当你我看到同一件事情的时候。 不是你这么看，我那么看。 当我们都如实看到实际情况的时候， 我们就都能够审视它。 可是如果你说那没有发生，它只是想象 或者它是这样、那样或者别的样子——你明白我的话吗？ 那么，让我们走到一起的是什么呢？ 我说的不是性行为，在这个纵欲的世界里那是最 愚蠢和最不用说的东西，我们却把那当成在一起。
54:22 Let’s put the question differently: if there is no tomorrow psychologically, the future, what is my action towards another? The future implies no ideals, and no past either. You understand this? If the future you deny psychologically, you also must deny the past. I don’t know if you follow this? Gosh! Will you let your past go? Your hurts, the wounds that you have received, the unfulfilled desires, the anxieties – which is the past. Psychologically, if there is no future, it implies psychologically there is no past. I wonder if you see this! You can’t have one and reject the other, they are the same movement. And that is our difficulty. Our difficulty is to let go, either the past or the future, because we are frightened. I won’t go into that now, but look at it, what we are doing. We want to change the world. It is necessary for our grandchildren. You know, sir, if you love somebody with your heart, with your blood with your whole being, love somebody, and you have a small child whom you love, do you want him to enter into this world? So what shall we do? But you are not interested in this. 我们换个方式提问：在心理上没有明天和 未来，我会怎么对待他人？ 未来意味着没有理想，也没有过去。 你认识到这一点了吗？ 要是你在心理上否定了未来，你必然也会否定过去。 这个你跟没跟上？ 天哪！ 你能抛弃过去吗？ 你的创伤，你受到的伤害， 未能满足的欲求和焦虑——这些都是过去。 心理上不存在未来 意味着心理上也不存在过去。 你是否看到了这一点！ 你不可能接受这个，拒绝那个，它们其实是同一种运动。 那就是我们的难题。 我们的难题就是放弃，无论过去还是未来， 因为我们害怕。 我现在不会去谈论那个问题，但是看着它，我们在做什么。 我们想要改变世界。 为了我们的子孙后代，我们必须这么做。 你知道先生，如果你用你的心和热血， 用你的整个存在爱一个人，如果你有一个小孩， 你疼爱他，你愿意让他来到这个世界上吗？ 那么我们会怎么做？ 可是你们对此不感兴趣。
57:03 Q: But do you think it is really possible to do it totally? Is someone that you know that has done it? 问：可是你认为彻底地这么去做真的可能吗？ 你认识的人里面有谁做到了？
57:11 K: Is this possible to do it totally, the gentleman asks, who has heard me 52 years. And do you know anybody who has done this. It would be impudent on my part – please, listen – impudent, impolite, incorrect, to say I know somebody. What is important is: are you now? Not do you know somebody. That is escaping from yourself when you say, ‘Well show me somebody, a result’. The speaker is not interested in results. If he is, then he will be disappointed, he will be exploiting, he will enter into quite a different world. 克：彻底地这么做是否可能， 这位听我讲了52年的先生问。 你知道有谁做到了。 我那样说是粗鲁的——请听， 说我知道谁如何如何,既粗鲁、不礼貌，也不正确。 重要的是：你现在做到了吗？ 而不是你知道有谁做到了。 那是在逃避自身，如果你说 “让我看看有谁，让我看看结果。” 讲话者对结果不感兴趣。 如果他感兴趣那么他就会感到失望， 他就是在剥削，他就进到一个完全不同的世界里了。
58:17 So what shall we do together? You see, if you understood that word ‘together’. You know, when you hold your hand with another whom you like, you may be holding hands and each person thinking differently. Right? But they are not together. Together means having the same quality of mind. When they love each other, it is the same quality. You understand? To love somebody so completely – oh, you don’t... In that there is no future, is there? You don’t say, ‘I will love you tomorrow’. 所以，我们一起做什么？ 你明白，如果你理解“一起”这个词。 你知道，你喜欢一个人，当你和他握手的时候， 你们可能是握着手,各人心思却不一样。 对吧？ 他们并没有在一起。 在一起意味着心的品质是相同的。 当他们彼此相爱时，那是相同的品质。 你明白吗？ 彻底地爱一个人——哦，你们不… 在那里是没有未来的，对吗？ 你不会说“我会在明天爱你”。
59:32 So what shall we do to bring about a feeling that we are not separate, we are together, the feeling, quality, the feeling of it – you understand? 所以，我们该如何去做才能创造一种不分彼此和 在一起的感觉，这种感觉，这种品质，这种在一起的感觉——你明白吗？
1:00:06 It is quite phenomenal that this gentleman has heard me 52 years, another gentleman over there for 20 years, and some of you have heard me for 10, 5, or for the first time – what will make you change? Being hit on the head? Offering you a reward? What will make you change so that you say, ‘Look, it is the greatest importance in life to be together’? 这位先生已经听我讲了52年了， 那边那位先生20多年了，这真不简单，你们中间有的人 已经听过10年、5年，或者第一次来——什么东西可以让你改变呢？ 让人敲你的头？ 给你什么奖励？ 什么可以让你改变，于是你说 “瞧，生活中最为重要的是在一起”？
1:01:23 Q: Letting go of fear. 问：抛弃恐惧。

克：无关恐惧。那是恐惧的问题吗？
1:01:26 K: No fear. Is that it? Or is it – please, listen – or is it we think we are secure in our separateness? 还是说——请听——还是说我们认为 在隔离当中我们是安全的？

问：是的先生。
1:01:51 Q: Yes, sir. 问：它一定始于…（听不清）
1:01:52 Q: It must start... 克：只要听我刚才说的就可以了，夫人。
1:01:54 K: Just listen, madame, to what I have said. Each one of us thinks, because we have a particular name, a form, a job, a bank account, belong to a particular nation, particular group, we are safe, secure. And I say: are you secure? Obviously you are not. So you follow? You want to be secure completely in your isolation, and the moment you are isolated you cannot be secure. That is what each nation is saying. We must be secure, we must build up arms, we must protect ourselves against you. So each human being wants to be secure in his isolation. Oh, for god’s sake! And when you are isolated, you can never be secure. 我们每个人都想，因为我有一个特定的名字， 一个外表，一份工作、一个银行账户， 属于一个特定的国家、特定的群体，我们是安全的。 而我说：你安全吗？ 显然你不安全。 跟上了吗？ 你想在隔离中得到彻底的安全， 而一旦隔离你就无法安全。 每个国家都是这么说的。 我们必须安全，我们必须建立军队， 我们必须保卫我们自己，对你们加以防范。 于是每个人都想在隔离中得到安全。 哦，看在上帝的份上！ 而当你隔离的时候，你永远也无法安全。
1:03:34 Isn’t that a fact?

Q: Yes. 		难道这不是事实吗？

问：是事实。
1:03:37 K: Therefore, if it is a fact, don’t be isolated. You see, you won’t accept the fact and say it is so, and yet you keep to the fact, hold on. It is a hopeless generation, is that it? No, sir. 克：那么，如果这是事实，你们就不要隔离。 你看你不愿意接受这个事实，说确实如此， 而是还在坚持隔离，死抱着隔离不放。 这是令人绝望的一代，是不是？ 不是，先生。
1:04:05 So we are pointing out – there is complete total security when we are together. You understand? When we are thinking together. And only out of that can come a good society, which is righteous, which is moral, which will have peace – you know. In that there is security, not in what you have now. 所以，我们指出的是，我们在一起 就会有彻底的安全。 你明白吗？ 我们一起思考的时候。 只有从那里才会出现美好社会， 这个社会才是正确的、才是道德的，才会有和平——你明白。 安全在那里，而不是在你现在所拥有的东西里。
1:04:57 Basta. We will meet the day after tomorrow, I believe, don’t we? 够了。 我们后天再见，我相信我们会再见面的，是吧？