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SA79T3 - 究竟存在心理上的安全吗？
第三次公开讲话，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月12日



1:01 Krishnamurti: I didn’t nearly make it this morning. 今天早上我差点来晚了。
1:04 I’ve got a bad cold. 我得了重感冒。
1:16 Shall we go on with what we were talking about the day before yesterday? Shall we? It seems to me that we never seriously think things through. We go halfway and give it up. And I think we are not sufficiently serious enough to go into this. I would like to discuss or talk over with you, if I may, not only what we have been talking about – thinking together – but the problem of security: why human beings throughout the world seek psychological security. One needs physical security. We must have food, clothes and shelter. And apparently throughout the millennia man has not been able to organise his society so that everybody could have enough food, clothes and shelter. There have been many, many revolutions to bring this about – totalitarian, this and the other, but apparently they have not been able to succeed. And is it because we seek physical security, and that desire for physical security has psychologically taken over the physical demands? You understand my...? One needs physical security and that is the function of a good society. Which we will go into presently: what is a good society. And why have not human beings been able to arrange and they have capacity to organise, enough energy to see that all human beings have enough food, clothes and shelter. That is one problem. 我们继续前天的讨论？ 好吗？ 我们似乎从来没有严肃地把问题想清楚过。 我们总是半途而废。 我认为，要讨论这个问题，我们还没有十二分的严肃认真。 如果可以的话，我想和大家推心置腹地谈一谈， 不仅谈我们一直在讲的 一起思考，还有这个安全的问题， 为什么全世界的人都在寻求心理上的安全。 你需要身体方面的安全。 我们必须得有食物、衣服和住所。 显然，几千年来人类并未能把 自己的社会组织得人人丰衣足食、居有定所。 为了实现这样的社会，人类经历了许许多多次革命， 建立了极权国家，等等，但显然他们都未能成功。 是不是因为我们寻求身体方面的安全，而对于 身体安全的欲望却在心理上取代了身体的需求？ 大家理解我的意思吗？ 你需要保证身体的安全，美好社会的作用就在于此。 我们马上就要谈到：什么是美好社会。 为什么人类没能做到？ 本来他们的能力，他们的精力是足以 让所有人都丰衣足食、居有定所的。 那是一个问题。
4:10 And the other is: each human being seeks psychological security, inward security, relying on belief, holding on, hoping thereby in a belief to find security, in an ideal, in a person, in a concept, in an experience, and does he ever find security in any of this? You understand my question? And if he doesn’t, why does he hold on to them? You understand my question? 另一个问题是：每个人都寻求心理安全、 内在安全，把信仰作为依靠，坚守这个信仰，以为这样就可以 在一个信仰、一个理想、一个人、一个概念或者一个经验里面找到安全， 可是他从其中任何一个里面找到过吗？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 如果没有，他为什么还执着于这些东西？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 如果你愿意的话，我们一起思考一下这个问题。
5:21 If one may, let us think over together this question. That is, if you are willing, put aside your particular vanity, your particular prejudice, your own conclusions, and let’s think over this problem together. Which means you are not accepting what the speaker is saying, nor are you accepting your own conclusions, because you have none, you have put them aside. So let us think this over very carefully, and this may be one of the factors, that human beings are so frightened. Why does the mind cling to a particular memory, to a particular experience, hold on to a belief which has lost all meaning – why? Let’s talk it over together. 就是说，如果你愿意，把你个人的虚荣、 你个人的偏见、 你自己的结论放在一边，咱们一起仔细思考这个问题。 这意味着你不是接受讲话者的说法， 也不是接受你自己的结论， 因为你没有结论，你已经把它们放下了。 咱们来非常细心地思考这个问题， 一个因素可能就是，人类被吓坏了。 为什么头脑执着于一个记忆、一个经验， 坚持一个毫无意义的信仰，为什么？ 咱们一起讨论一下。
6:54 Either he is incapable of seeing the facts or he likes to live in an illusion, in a make-belief, which has nothing whatsoever to do with actuality: the actuality being what is taking place now. Or he separates the experience, the idea, the ideal, the belief as being not accurate, but holds on to them because intellectually he is incapable of investigating. You follow? Now if we may proceed step by step. 要么是他没有能力看到事实， 要么是他喜欢生活在一种幻觉， 一种与事实毫无关系的自欺欺人当中， 事实就是现在正在发生的事。 或者，他区别对待经验、观点、理想 和信仰，那些东西是不准确的，可是他依然执着它们， 因为他没有理智地调查研究的能力。 跟上了吗？ 大家要是愿意，一步一步来讨论吧。
8:00 Have you any belief that you hold on to? And if you hold on to a belief, what is that belief? How does it come into being? Either through centuries of propaganda, as most religions have done, that is their metier, that is their investment. For centuries a belief has been created, and one accepts it naturally, from childhood, and it is easier to follow what has been the tradition rather than to break away from it. You are following all this? If you have no particular beliefs, then ideals. The word ‘idea’, I believe, comes from the Greek, which means to see, to observe. You understand? Not observe and then from it a conclusion, which becomes an idea. The word ‘idea’ actually means to observe. Now have we ideals, which is the future? The future which is going to be achieved. The ideal has been projected from the experiences of the past, from certain conclusions which have been gathered, and from that you project an ideal, historical, worldly, or personal. Right? That is the past projecting a concept as an ideal, which is in the future, and conforming to the future, to that ideal. It is the same movement from the past modified through the present, and the future. Right, that is clear, isn’t it? Now, if you see that, that when you have an ideal, there must be a contradiction in your daily life because that ideal is something non-real – right? – non-factual. But the factual is what is happening, and hence a conflict, an adjustment, an imitation, a division. So there is constantly approximating one’s action to something which is not factual. I wonder if you see. That is illusory, this is actual. 你有什么坚定的信仰吗？ 如果你坚持一个信仰，那个信仰是什么？ 它是怎么产生的？ 要么是通过若干世纪的宣传，像大多数宗教那样， 那是他们的拿手好戏，那是他们的投入和付出。 信仰在若干个世纪前就产生了，你在孩提时期就自然而然地 接受了它，遵循已然成为 传统的东西要比冲破传统容易多了。 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 要是你没有任何信仰，那么，我们说一说理想(ideal)。 “理念”这个词（idea），我认为来源于希腊语， 意思是去看，去观察。 大家明白吗？ 不是观察，然后从中得出结论，进而成为理念（idea）。 “理念”这个词（idea）的意思实际是去观察。 那么，我们有理想(ideal)，也就是未来吗？ 要去实现的未来？ 理想是从过去的经验、 过去总结的某些结论中投射出来的，你从那里投射出 历史的、世俗的或者个人的理想。 对吗？ 那就是过去投射出一个概念,当作 未来的理想，然后去遵从那个未来、那个理想。 这跟从过去出发， 通过现在的调整，到达未来是同一种运动。 对吧，那很清楚，不是吗？ 注意，如果你看到了那一点，即如果你有一个理想， 那么你的日常生活必然会存在矛盾，因为 理想是不真实的东西——对吧？——非事实。 而事实是正在发生的事情，于是就会有冲突， 就会有调整、模仿和分裂。 所以，人就在不停地 让行动接近某种非事实的东西。 不知你是否明白。 那是幻觉，这是事实。
11:56 Now after explaining that very carefully we can go much more into details. Do you actually see this fact? Or are you already translating it into an idea? You are following? Please, observe yourself. That is, if one has an ideal and you see the nature of the ideal, how the ideal comes into being. Lenin, all the Marxists, Maoists, have these ideals, after studying history and coming to their own particular conclusion about history, and then projecting the ideas, and then making human beings conform to that idea. So have you, as a human being, thinking this out very carefully, do you see the falseness of it and therefore letting it go? Or you feel if you have an ideal, you are doing something, you are active, you are accomplishing, fulfilling your ideals. And that gives one a great satisfaction, vanity, a sense of purpose. You are following all this? 经过非常仔细的解释，我们可以更详细地讨论了。 你实际看到这个事实了吗？ 还是说你已经把它转换成一个观点了？ 大家明白吗？ 请观察自己。 就是说，如果你有理想， 而你看到了理想的本质，看到了理想是如何产生的。 列宁、所有的马克思主义者，毛主义者，他们在研究了历史之后， 形成了这些理想，得出他们自己的 关于历史的结论，然后投射出一些理念， 再叫人服从那个理念。 那么，作为一个人，在对此仔细思考之后， 你看到理想的谬误，于是放弃理想了吗？ 还是说，你感觉如果有理想，你就有所作为， 你就积极活跃，你就在达到和实现你的理想？ 而那会给人以巨大的满足、虚荣和一种目标感。 这些大家都跟上了吗？
13:51 So after talking over together – together – does one put aside ideals? If you do, then you say, is it possible then to face actually what is happening? Not in contrast to the ideal and measuring what is happening according to the ideal, but have the capacity to face what is actually going on. In that observation of what is actually taking place, there is no conflict, you are watching. I wonder if you see this. Are we together in this or am I...? Please, bear in mind we are thinking this out together. 在一起坦诚交谈之后——一起——你抛开理想了吗？ 如果你做到了，那么你说 是否可能如实面对正在发生的事呢？ 不是对照理想和根据理想来度量正在发生的事情， 而是具有如实面对正在发生的事情的能力。 在那种对于正在发生之事的观察中， 没有冲突，你正在观察。 不知你是否看到了这一点。 是我们一起在观察还是我……？ 请记住，我们是一起来弄清楚这个问题。
15:06 It is very important that we not only learn to listen properly, but also have the capacity, which comes naturally if you are interested, in being able to see that is false and it is finished. I will put aside my opinion, I won’t let that interfere. And can we together put aside all our ideals? Because we are thinking this out together because we are enquiring into the question of security. We think we are secure when we pursue an ideal, however false it is, however unreal it is, which has no validity, it gives a certain sense of purpose. And that sense of purpose gives a certain quality of assurance, satisfaction, security. Right? Can we go along? Not go along verbally, but actually you have put aside your ideals. 至关重要的一点就是，我们不仅要学会正确地聆听， 还要具有这个能力，如果你对于能够看到 谬误和结束谬误感兴趣，这种能力就会自然而然地到来。 我放下我的观点，我不让理想干预进来。 我们能把所有理想都放在一边吗？ 因为我们是在一起思考这个问题， 因为我们是在探究安全的问题。 我们追逐理想的时候，以为自己是安全的， 不管它是多么的错误，多么的不真实， 没有任何效力，它还是提供了某种目标感。 而那种目标感 提供了某种性质的保证、满足和安全。 对吗？ 我们可以继续吗？ 不是在口头上继续，而是你真正地放下了你的理想。
16:56 So now we are enquiring into the question of security. And why do humans, right throughout the world, hold on to experience? Please, ask yourself. Not only sexual physical experiences but also so-called spiritual experiences, which are much more dangerous. You walk along by yourself or with others, you suddenly have some kind of ecstasy, some kind of delight, and that experience – you store it, hold on to it. The thing is over – right? – there is the memory of it, and one holds on to that memory, which is called experience. The actual word ‘experience’ means to go through. To go through and finish with it, not carry on in your memory that which has happened. Now, specially in so-called psychological experiences or religious experiences, which are very subtle in their happenings, the human mind takes delight in something which is not ordinary. Ordinary being that which is happening every day. And that which has happened suddenly or which has happened after unconsciously working at it and then happening – I hope you are following all this – and holding on to it – why? Does that give one a certain sense of having experiences, known? That which is something not ordinary, and that gives one a delight, a great pleasure, and in that experience there is a certain quality of security because you have experienced something totally other than ‘what is’. Right? Are you following all this? 现在，我们探究安全的问题。 为什么全世界的人都执着于经验？ 请问你自己。 不只是性的经验、身体的经验，还包括所谓的 精神上的体验，后者危险要大得多。 你独自一人或者与别人一道散步的时候， 突然间，遭逢某种狂喜、 某种喜悦，然后，你就记着那种经验、执着于那种体验。 事情已经结束——对吧？——存在的是关于它的记忆， 你执着被称作经验的那段记忆。 “经验”这个词的真正含义是经历。 经历过这件事并把它结束， 不把它记在心上。 特别是在所谓的心理体验或者宗教体验中， 它在发生的时候是非常微妙的， 某种不寻常的事物令人类的头脑为之欣喜， 寻常指的是日常发生的事情。 突然，那件事就发生了，或者是在无意识地 探索之后发生了，在那件事发生的时候， 我希望这些大家都清楚了——你执着于它——为什么？ 那会给人某种我体验过、我知道了的感觉吗？ 那种不寻常的事情，给人愉悦 和巨大快乐的事情，在那个体验当中 存在着某种安全的特性，因为 你体验到某种与“现实情况”完全不同的东西。 对吧，这些大家都跟上了吗？
20:20 And does belief, ideal, experience, remembrances, do they give security? Actual security, as physical security. You are following all this? Or does the mind like to live in a certain area of illusion? Please, we are thinking over together, we are not doing propaganda or trying to convince you of anything. But we are trying together to find out why human beings hold on to illusions, which are obvious to another. Now is it, as we said, it gives them a great sense of superiority? ‘Ah, I have had something which you fellows haven’t had’. That is the whole gamut of the gurus – you know this – ‘I know, you don’t know’. And why do human beings live in this way? Why do you or ‘X’ live this way? Please, think it out. Let’s think it over together because your experience is personal, enclosing, self-centred, and the other is the same. So there is always your experience is different from mine or another, and mine is better than yours, so there is always this division going on. So are we, in thinking this out together, holding on to our experiences, our beliefs, our ideals, our conclusions, knowing that they are merely verbal structure, knowing that they are merely a thing that is gone, finished, in the past? Why do we hold on? Is it we want to live with certain illusions in which we take delight? So does security lie in illusions? Apparently a vast majority of people in the world like to live in illusions, whether it is scientific illusions or the religious illusions, or economic illusions, or national illusions. They seem to like it. And perhaps we are serious, not wanting mere entertainment, we are deeply concerned with the social structure, which is destructive, dangerous, and we human beings say we must bring about a different quality of mind and a different society. 信仰、理想、经验、记忆， 它们能提供安全吗？ 实际的安全，就像是身体的安全。 这些大家都明白吗？ 还是说，心喜欢在某个幻觉中生活？ 请注意，我们是在一起思考， 我们不是在做宣传或者试图让你相信什么。 而是我们一起在尽力弄清楚， 人们为什么要执着于这个旁人一眼就能看穿的幻觉。 是不是，就像我们说的，它给了我们一种巨大的优越感？ “啊，我有些你们这些家伙不曾有过的东西”。 那就是古鲁们的全套把戏， 你知道这种事——“我知道，你不知道。” 为什么人类要按照这种方式生活？ 为什么你或者张三要按照这种方式生活？ 弄明白这个问题吧。 咱们一起思考这个问题，因为你的经验是围绕着 个人，以自我为中心的，另一个人也是如此。 所以，你的经验总是不同于我的或者别人的经验， 而我的经验好于你的经验，总有这类争论，于是总会有分裂。 我们执着于我们的经验、信仰、理想和结论， 那么在一起思考的过程中， 我们知道它们不过是言辞结构， 不过是已经消失的、结束的和属于过去的东西，是这样吗？ 我们为什么要执着？ 是想要生活在某种令我们喜悦的幻觉中吗？ 那么幻觉中存在安全吗？ 显然，世界上绝大多数人喜欢生活在 各种幻觉里，无论是科学的幻觉、 宗教的幻觉、经济的幻觉还是国家的幻觉。 他们看来喜欢那种幻觉。 而我们或许是严肃的，不是只想娱乐。 我们对这个破坏性的危险的社会结构深感忧虑， 作为人类，我们认为我们必须创造 一个不同品质的头脑和一个不同的社会。
24:53 So we are asking: why do we find security in illusions? Please, find out. And why is it that we cannot possibly face facts? Say, for instance, envy is the common lot of all mankind. Right? Envy being comparison, measurement from what I am to what you are. This is measurement. Now in thinking over together why is it not possible to end that completely? I am asking. I am not saying it should or should not. The fact is the reaction which we call envy. That is the fact. But the non-fact is I should not be envious. Right? Do we meet this? The fact of this reaction which we call envy is what is happening, but the mind has projected the concept that one should not be, which is unreal. So you are struggling to move from the fact into non-fact. I wonder if you see all this! Right, sir? Are we meeting each other? Whereas to face the fact without the non-fact. Are we meeting? I don’t know. Are you all tired this morning? 所以我们问：为什么我们要在幻觉中寻找安全？ 来，弄清楚。 为什么我们不能够面对事实？ 比如说，嫉妒是全人类都有的东西。 对吧？ 嫉妒是比较，就是度量你我之间的差距。 这是度量。 我们是在一起思考，为什么不能彻底结束嫉妒？ 我是在问。 我不是说应该或不应该。 事实是我们称之为嫉妒的反应。 那是事实。 而我不应该嫉妒是非事实。 对吧？ 我们同意这一点吗？ 这个我们称之为嫉妒的反应是正在发生的事实，可是 心投射出了一个我们不应该嫉妒的概念，一个不真实的概念。 于是，你是在努力从事实跑到非事实里面去。 这些大家全都看到了吗！ 是这样吗，先生？ 我们沟通上了吗？ 可是，不带有非事实地去面对事实。 我们沟通上了吗？我不知道。 今天上午大家都累了吗？ 所以，我们是被这样训练和教育过来的，相信非事实
27:35 So we have been so trained, educated to accept non-facts as being far more important than the actual. And in the non-fact we think we shall have found security. Right? Now when you hear that, is it an idea, a concept, or you are really listening and therefore you see the non-fact and finish with it? I wonder if you see this? Right? 远比事实重要。 我们认为可以从非事实中发现安全。 是不是？ 现在，当你听到这个，它是一个观念、一个概念还是你真地 在听，于是你看到了那个非事实并和它一刀两断。 你看到这一点了吗？看到了吗？
28:25 So we have to go into the question: what does it mean to listen? You have listened now for nearly half an hour. Have you listened actually for half an hour to what is being said, which is what you are saying to yourself, not what another is saying. Right? Are you listening so completely, you see the illusion actually and see the absurdity of living in an illusion and finish with it? Which means can we stay with the fact and have no relationship to non-fact? Because our minds, as we said, are conditioned to non-facts. Just see what we have done. 所以，我们必须讨论这个问题：倾听是什么意思？ 现在你们已经听了差不多半个小时。 这半小时里，你听到的东西实际上 是你对你自己讲的，而不是别人对你讲的。 是这样吗？ 你在全然地听，你真正看到了那个幻觉， 看到了生活在幻觉之中的荒唐，并和它一刀两断，是这样吗？ 也就是说，我们能否与事实共处，而与非事实毫无关系？ 因为我们的心，就像刚才所说，受到了非事实的制约。 就看看我们都干了些什么吧。
29:54 The other day a man said to me: ‘I can’t bury my son in the campo santo – which is cemetery – because he is not baptised’. You understand? Do you understand what I am saying? Not baptised – you know, going through all that nonsense. And he was horrified, miserable, unhappy that his son couldn’t be buried there, in the ‘holy ground’ as he called it. You follow? Just, no, please, sir, this is very serious. You may laugh at it, you may set it aside because you say it is nonsense, but you have your own nonsense. 有一天，一个人对我说：“我们不能把我的儿子埋在campo santo， 就是墓地里，因为他没有受洗”。 大家明白吗？ 大家明白我讲的这件事吗？ 没有受洗，你知道那个全是胡扯的一套程序。 他感到震惊、痛苦、闷闷不乐，因为他的儿子 不能被埋在那个他称为“圣地”的地方。 大家明白吗？ 只是，不，请注意，先生，这非常严肃。 你可能会觉得可笑，你可能会置之不理，因为你认为那真荒唐， 可是你也有你自己的荒唐。
30:54 So can we hear, observe so closely, so attentively, give all our attention to this and therefore all illusion has gone? And this illusion is part of our conditioning. If you are a Catholic, look at the illusions you have, or a Hindu, and so on, so on. We don’t have to go into all that. Now a mind that has sought security in non-fact has dropped that, has discovered there is no security there – please follow this – what is the state of the mind that is observing what is happening, the actual? You understand my question? Have I made my question clear? Do please! 我们能否非常仔细、非常专注地去倾听、去观察， 我们能否全神贯注，于是所有的幻觉都烟消云散了呢？ 这个幻觉是我们所受制约的一部分。 如果你是天主教徒，就审视一下你的那些幻觉， 或者你是印度教徒，等等。 我们不必把那些东西全都讨论一遍。 心从非事实中寻求过安全，现在他放弃了非事实， 他发现那里并没有安全，然后， 请理解这一点——那个观察着正在发生的 实际情况的心是个什么状态？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我把问题说清楚了吗？ 一定要理解啊！
32:16 All right. Suppose I have no – not suppose – it is finished, I have no illusions. Which doesn’t mean I am cynical, which doesn’t mean I am indifferent or I have become bitter, but illusions no longer play a part in my life. Then I ask myself: what is the quality of the mind, your mind, together, what is the quality of our mind which is facing that which is happening? You understand my question? Do you understand my question, sir? What is the state of your mind that is freed from all kinds of illusion? National illusion, scientific illusions, of course, all the absurd illusions of religions and the illusion that you have been carrying as your own experience. Right? What is the quality of a mind that is free? It is only such a mind that can observe what is happening, naturally. You follow this? 好的。 假设我没有——不是假设——它已经结束了，我没有幻觉。 这不是说我玩世不恭，这不是说我漠不关心 或者我变得尖酸刻薄了，而是幻觉不再是我生活的一部分了。 然后我问自己：心、你的心，我们一起 面对正在发生之事的心是什么样的品质？ 你理解我的问题吗？ 你理解我的问题吗，先生？ 摆脱了所有各种幻觉的心是一个什么样的状态？ 国家的幻觉、科学的幻觉， 当然还有所有宗教的荒唐的幻觉， 以及你一直作为自己的体验而记在心上的幻觉。 对吧？ 一颗自由的心是什么样的品质？ 自然，只有这样的心才能观察正在发生的事情。 跟上了吗？
34:04 Now the question then is: the mind is seeking security – right? it wants security, it has not found security in any illusion – right? but yet it says, ‘I must have security’. I wonder if you are following all this. So it says, ‘I must find security in my relationship’. Obviously. ‘I have let go the beliefs, ideals – ah, I’m tired – the experiences, the remembrances, all the nationalistic nonsense, all that, they are all gone’. But one’s mind is not free from the idea of security. And from that may be the beginning of all fear. So it says, ‘Is there security in my relationship with another?’ Go on, you are the people who are caught in this. Is there security in the image I have created about my wife or my husband, my girl? Obviously not. Because that image is the projection of past experience. Right? And the past experience has brought about this image, and according to that image I act, which is the future. Right? Am I making this awfully difficult? So the mind is now saying: there is no security in any form of image. Right? Not in relationship, but in any form of having an image, which thought has created from the past experience. Right? 现在的问题就是：心在寻求安全——对吧？ 它需要安全，在任何幻觉当中它都没有找到安全——对吧？ 可它还是说“我必须得有安全。” 不知这些大家都理解了没有。 所以它说，“我必须在我的关系里找到安全。” 很明显。 “我放弃了信仰、理想——啊，我累了（笑声） 经验，记忆… 所有国家主义的胡说八道，它们全都不存在了”。 可是，你的心没有从安全的观念当中解脱出来。 而可能所有的恐惧都来源于此。 于是它说，“在我和别人的关系当中有安全吗？” 继续思考，你们正是被困在这里的人。 在我制造的关于我妻子，或者丈夫， 或者女朋友的形象当中有安全吗？ 显然没有。 因为形象是过去经验的投射。 对吧？ 过去的经验造成这个形象， 我根据这个形象采取行动，就是未来。 对吧？ 这个东西让我讲得晦涩难懂了吗？ 于是心现在说：在任何形式的形象当中都没有安全。 对吧？ 不是说关系中没有安全，而是说思想根据过去的经验 制造出形象，不论形式如何，其中都没有安全。 对吧？
36:58 So if you have not an image, then what is relationship in which the mind is still seeking security. Right? Come on, sirs! Is there a relationship between two people when they are not absolutely thinking together? In thinking together there is complete security. Right? That is, one has let go all his opinions, judgements, experiences and all that, and the other has also, so they can think together. Right? That is the actual relationship, in which there is no division as my personal thinking and yours. Right? So we are saying: there is security psychologically, total security when the mind is freed from all illusions and doesn’t seek security in any form of relationship as attachment. Right? Because attachment is one of the illusions, in which we think we will find security. I am attached to you. I am attached to this audience. I come here, the speaker comes here and wants to talk, express himself, fulfil himself, and therefore finds a certain security in that. Which is, the speaker is exploiting you for his own security. And when the speaker is honest and fairly decent, he says what rot it is and he moves away from that kind of nonsense. 所以，如果你不抱任何形象... 那么，如果心依然要从形象当中寻求安全，那是什么关系？ 对吧？ 加把劲儿，先生们！ 两个人要是没有完全地 一起思考，他们之间存在关系吗？ 在一起思考当中有着彻底的安全。 对吗？ 即，你放下你的一切观点、评判和经验 之类的东西，他也放下他的那些东西，这样你们就能一起思考了。 是不是？ 那是真实的关系， 其中不存在像我的个人想法、你的个人想法这种分裂。 对吧？ 所以，我们说：当心摆脱了所有幻觉， 并且不在任何形式的关系中寻求安全，不把关系 当作依赖的时候，就会有心理上的安全、彻底的安全。 对吧？ 因为依赖是我们以为可以从中 找到安全的种种幻觉中的一个。 我依赖你。 我依赖这些听众。 我到这儿来，讲话者到这儿来，他想演讲，想表达自己、 满足自己，从而在其中找到某种安全。 就是说，讲话者为了他自己的安全在剥削你。 如果讲话者诚实并且相当正派，他会说， 这实在是胡扯，于是他就摒弃那种愚蠢的行为。
40:03 So in attachment we want to find security. And when you don’t find it in a particular attachment, you try to find it in another attachment. One is married to one for 20 years and you are bored and you suddenly run off with somebody else, which is what is happening in the society, and there you are hoping to find some kind of security, excitement, sex, and all the rest of it. See what we are doing, sirs. Or you are attached to your present lady or man and are satisfied – right? – which is another security. I wonder if you see all this. I wonder if you see how your mind is playing tricks on yourself all the time. This is called love. 所以，我们想要从依赖中找到安全。 如果某种依赖没有给你安全， 你就努力去找另一种依赖。 你和一个人结婚了二十年，然后你厌烦了，你突然 （笑声）和什么人私奔了， 这就是社会现实，你希望从那里 找到某种安全、刺激和性之类的东西。 看我们在做什么，先生们。 或者，你依赖你现在的太太或者先生，并对此满足 是不是？——那是另一种安全。 这些大家都明白吗？ 你们有没有看到心是怎样一直在捉弄着你们自己的？ 而这被叫做爱。
41:27 So we are saying: is there security at all psychologically? Think it out. One has invested the desire for psychological security in belief, in ideal, in experience, in remembrances, in attachment, in God, and so on, so on, so on. And is there security? Or it is all illusion? I mean one can have tremendous comfort in any kind of illusion: that Jesus is going to save you – marvellous! Comfort, save you from what god knows, but it doesn’t matter! And so on and on and on. The Hindus have it, the Buddhists – the same pattern is repeated throughout the world. Which means we never face the fact but rather live in non-fact. 所以，我们说：究竟存在心理上的安全吗？ 把它想清楚。 你在信仰、理想、经验、 记忆、依赖、上帝之类的东西中 投入了对于心理安全的欲望。 那里有安全吗？ 还是说那都是幻觉？ 我的意思是你可以在任何一种形式的幻觉中获得巨大的安慰： 耶稣会来拯救你，太棒了！ 安慰，把你拯救出来，天晓得那是什么，但没关系。 等等、等等各种安慰。 印度教徒有这套东西，佛教徒， 全世界都在重复同样的模式。 这意味着我们从不面对事实，而宁愿生活在非事实当中。
42:51 And when we do that, our minds are torn apart. Right? We become very cruel, we think conflict is inevitable, it is part of life. When you put aside all that, now, how do you put aside all that? That is the point. You understand? You have listened to this for three quarters of an hour, and in what manner, if you have discovered your particular illusion, in what manner have you set it aside? You understand? Please, follow this. Is it an act of determination? Is it an act of choice: seeing that this is illusion, I prefer that? Is it an outcome of somebody else’s concept imposed upon you? Is it your own clarity of observation? That is, you yourself see it. 当我们那么做的时候，我们的心就被撕裂了。 对吧？ 我们变得非常残酷，我们认为冲突不可避免，它是生活的一部分。 当你丢掉所有幻觉，注意，你该怎样丢掉所有幻觉呢？ 那是关键。 大家明白吗？ 大家已经听了三刻钟了， 以什么方式，如果你发现了自己的那个幻觉， 你是以什么样的方式抛开它的？ 大家理解吗？ 请弄清楚这一点。 它是做出决定的行动吗？ 它是进行选择吗？看到这个是幻觉，于是我希望要那个？ 它是别人把概念强加给你所造成的结果吗？ 它来自你自己清晰透彻的观察，是吗？ 就是说，你亲自看到它。
44:58 Then the question arises: How do you see it? You are following all this? You are not getting tired? One sees one is caught in an illusion, an ideal. How do you see this phenomena? Is it a reasoned-out conclusion? A clarity of verbal explanation? Is it that you are being skilfully persuaded? Or you yourself see this fact. Now we are asking: how do you see it? Do you see it merely as visual perception, the facts in the world, and therefore from visual perception, reading books, newspapers, magazines, discussing, you have come to the realisation that ideals are rubbish. That is merely an intellectual process and therefore it is merely you are living in a concept and therefore non-fact, however logically, sanely, rationally you may observe it, and then say, ‘I will drop it’. But the dropping of it is not actual because you have other illusions around the corner. But whereas we are saying – please, listen to this – if you observe without any remembrance in your observation – I must make this clear otherwise you will think I am crazy. We are talking over together the question of seeing, whether you have come to the conclusion that illusions are nonsensical and therefore you won’t be involved in them. Or do you have an insight to the whole movement of illusion? You understand my question? I can take... one can take one kind of illusion – belief – investigate it, go into it, and say, ‘Well, it is finished’. And investigate your ideals, and so on, so on, so on. That doesn’t really free you, does it? Investigate that, but does it really free you when you have rationally, logically, sanely investigated into the various forms of illusions? Which means, how do you investigate? You investigate through thought. Right? Thought has created these illusions, and with thought you are examining these illusions, which again is a trick you are playing. So thought can again create other illusions and say, ‘I won’t have these illusions’. But thought has not understood the very nature of illusion and the creator of illusions. 那么，问题就是：你如何看到它？ 这些大家都明白吗？大家是不是累了？ 一个人看到自己陷在幻觉、理想当中。 你如何看到这个现象？ 它是一个推理得出的结论？ 清晰的语言解释？ 你是被别人巧妙地说服？ 还是你自己看到了事实？ 现在我们问的是：你如何看到它？ 你把它仅仅当作对世界上的事实的视觉感知， 于是通过视觉感知，读书看报， 翻阅杂志以及讨论， 你认识到了理想就是垃圾，是这样吗？ 那只不过是一个智力过程，因此你不过是 在概念，因而是非事实当中生活，不管你对它的观察 是多么逻辑清楚，多么理智合理，并说：“我会抛弃它”。 但是对它的抛弃是不真实的， 因为一转身你就会有其它的幻觉。 然而，我们说——请听这个 如果在观察中，你不带有任何记忆， 我必须讲清楚，否则你们会以为我疯了。 我们是在一起讨论看的问题， 你是已经得出了结论：幻觉 即荒谬，所以你不想卷入其中； 还是说你对于幻觉的整个运动有了一个洞见？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我可以拿——你可以拿一种幻觉，信仰， 对它进行调查、探究，并说，“嗯，我把它解决了。” 然后你再研究你的那些理想，等等，等等。 那并没有真地给你自由，不是吗？ 研究一下，对各种幻觉在逻辑上、 理智地进行研究，真的能让你自由吗？ 也就是，你怎样去研究？ 你是通过思想研究。 对吧？ 思想制造了这些幻觉，而你在用 思想来检查这些幻觉，这是你玩的又一个把戏。 所以，思想可以再次制造其它的幻觉，并说 “我不要这些幻觉”。 但是，思想并没有理解 幻觉的本质以及幻觉的制造者。
49:50 Now if you see thought itself is the creator of illusions – you are following all this? – when the mind itself sees that thought is the creator of illusions, then you have an insight into the whole nature of illusions. It is that insight that is going to dissolve all illusions. I wonder if you have got it. Should we discuss or go into the question of insight? We have got seven minutes. 如果你看到思想本身就是幻觉的制造者 ——这些大家都跟上了吗？——而当心自己看到 思想是幻觉的制造者的时候， 那么你就洞见到了幻觉的整个本质。 正是那个洞见会消除所有的幻觉。 大家明白了吗？ 我们讨论或者探究一下洞见的问题好吗？ 我们还有七分钟。
50:56 Sir, insight is not intuition. Intuition may be a refined form of desire. Don’t accept what the speaker is saying, investigate it. Intuition or apprehension may be the unconscious projection, which is taken as something extraordinarily real. Right? So we are saying insight is not related to any form of desire. ‘I want to understand. I must go into this’. The motive behind is desire wanting to comprehend. Right? Desire is saying, ‘This, I must find this out’. So if you want to go into it very carefully, insight is not the activity of desire. Insight is not the projection of past experience. Insight is not a remembered action. That is, I am going to show you something. That is, when you see that all religious organisations – instantly, not logically, step by step, which you can do afterwards – if you see that all religious organisations are based upon thought and therefore have nothing whatsoever to do with actual, the sacredness of religion, you have an insight into it. You understand what I am saying? 洞见不是直觉，先生。 直觉可能是一种更为精致的欲望。 不要相信讲话者说的东西，对它调查一下。 直觉或者预感可能是无意识的投射， 却被当作某种特别真实的东西了。 对吧？ 我们说洞见与任何欲望都没有关系。 “我想要理解。我必须研究一下。” 背后的动机是想要理解的欲望。 对吧？ 欲望说，“我必须弄清楚。” 所以，你要想对此非常仔细地进行研究， 洞见不是欲望的活动。 洞见不是过去经验的投射。 洞见不是记忆里的行动。 就是，我要给你们看些东西。 那就是：当你一下子看到所有的宗教组织， 不是一步一步，通过逻辑分析，这些你可以以后再做， 如果你看到所有的宗教组织都是建立在思想的基础之上， 因此，不论是宗教神圣，还是别的什么， 都和事实毫无关系，你对它就有了一个洞见。 大家理解我说的东西吗？
53:27 Now is your action the action of insight with regard to illusion? You understand my question? Or you are still analysing it? You are still mentally active in exploration? Or you see instantly the nature of illusion and finished. You are following the difference? One is determination, choice, a subtle form of conclusion and action. So action takes an interval, there is a time interval. We are saying: in insight, there is immediate perception and action, in which there is no regret, no turning back – it is so. Have you got this? Sir, if you want to go into this, one has to be very careful not to deceive yourself, because our minds are so quick in their capacity to deceive. I can say, ‘Yes, I have got insight into this’. And out of that insight you act, and then you find ‘I wish I hadn’t done that’. Regrets – you follow? – all the sequence follows. But insight is something entirely different. There is no time interval between insight and action, they are both together. 你的行动发自于对幻觉的洞见，是这样吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 还是说你仍然是在分析它？ 你在探索的时候头脑仍然活跃吗？ 还是说你立刻看到了幻觉的本质，终结了幻觉？ 你看出区别了吗？ 一个是决定、选择，一种结论和行动的微妙形式。 于是行动需要一个间隔，存在一个时间间隔。 我们说的是：在洞见当中有着即刻的理解和行动， 其中没有遗憾，没有收回成命，就是这样。 这一点大家理解了吗？ 先生，如果你想要探究这个问题， 就得非常小心，不能欺骗自己， 因为我们的头脑在欺骗方面极为敏捷。 我可以说，“是的，我对此有了洞见。” 你根据那个洞见去行动， 然后你却觉得“我要是没那么做就好了。” 后悔——你明白吗？——所有的连续反应接踵而至。 而洞见完全不同。 在洞见和行动之间不存在时间间隔，它们两个是一起的。
55:39 Now after explaining all this, which is a verbal form of communication, have you listened so carefully that you see instantly the whole structure of illusion? That is wisdom. Right, sirs. May we go? 现在，经过所有这些解释， 经过语言形式的交流，你是否仔细地 聆听并即刻看到了幻觉的整个结构？ 那就是智慧。 是吧，先生。 我们可以走了吗？
56:42 Sir, when we sit together like this, fairly quietly and silently, listening, is the silence contrived? Or you are so concerned not to solve your own personal problems, which will inevitably finish, when you have understood the act of listening, the act of observation. The act of listening, in that there is no desire, just you listen. But if you listen to Mozart and say, ‘By Jove, what a lovely... I had a lovely evening the other day listening to that music, and I want to play it again’, you have lost something. And if you listen so completely, then the thing itself is like a seed dropped into the earth, it flourishes, you don’t have to do a thing. In the same way if you observe closely, in which there is only observation, only observation – not the observer saying ‘I will observe’, then in that observation and listening, there is a strange quality of attention which is insight. Right, sirs. Right. Is that enough? 先生们，我们这样坐在一起， 相当安静地聆听，这种寂静是人为造成的吗？ 还是说，你怀着热切的关心， 不是为了解决个人问题，理解了倾听的行动， 观察的行动之后，那些问题必然会结束； 在倾听的行动中没有欲望，你就是在听。 但是如果你听了莫扎特，然后说，“哎呀，太美了， 那天晚上听这首曲子的感觉真是棒极了， 我想把它再放一遍,”那你就丢掉了什么。 而如果你彻底投入地聆听，那个东西自己就像 掉进土里的一粒种子，它会茁壮成长，你不必去做什么。 同样，如果你密切地观察，其中就只有观察， 只有观察，没有说“我要观察”的观察者， 那么在那个观察和倾听当中 就存在着奇特的注意的品质，也就是洞见。 可以吗，先生们。 好的。 这些够了吗？