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SA79T5 - 恐惧是欲望和时间造成的吗？
第五次公开讲话，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月17日



1:02 Krishnamurti: Before we go on to talk over what we have been talking the last four talks, one has been wondering, and you must also have been asking yourself, why we, who have gathered here, who have listened for so many years, why don’t we change? What is the root cause of it? Is there one cause, or many causes? We know what the world has become outwardly, more and more fragmented, more and more violent, more insane, one group fighting another group, where one cannot share all the energy of the world for all people, you know what is happening. And what is our relationship to that, to the world and to oneself? Are we separate from all that? If we are, which I question, if we are, are we so very radically different from the world about us? The competing gurus, the competing religions, the contradictory opposing ideas, and so on, what shall we do together to change ourselves? I am asking this in all seriousness: why we lead our lives as we live: our petty little ideals, vanities, and all the stupidities that we have accumulated, why is it we go on this way? 在继续前四次谈话之前, 人们一直纳闷，你一定也在问自己， 我们这些人聚在这里，听了这么多年， 为什么我们没有改变？根本原因是什么？ 这是一个原因，还是多方面的原因？ 我们知道外在的世界成了什么样子，越来越支离破碎， 越来越暴力，越来越疯狂，一群人跟另一群人打仗， 那个地区的人不愿意跟所有人共享世界的能源。 你知道现在的形势。 我们和世界，和我们自身是什么关系？ 我们和那些全都无关吗？如果无关，我质疑这一点， 如果无关，我们与周围世界有什么根本的不同吗？ 古鲁们彼此争斗，宗教与宗教相互竞争，各种观念矛盾对立、等等， 我们怎样一起行动才能改变我们自身？ 我是在特别严肃地问：为什么我们把生活过成了这个样子？ 琐碎渺小的理想、虚荣，所有我们积累起来 那些愚蠢的东西，为什么我们要这样生活下去？
4:09 Is it we are frightened to change? Is it we have no desire or intention or urge to find a different way of living? Please, ask yourself these questions. I am asking these questions for you, I am not asking for myself. Why? What is the essence of this deterioration of the human mind and therefore the disintegration in action? You understand? Why is there this mind that has become so small, inclusive, not bringing everything and operating from the whole, but living in a small little courtyard? What is the root of it? Go on, sirs, think it, let us talk it over a little bit. 是因为我们害怕改变吗？是我们没有那种渴望，或者意愿， 或者强烈愿望，去发现一种不同的生活方式吗？ 请把这些问题问一问你自己。 我是在替你们，而不是替我自己问这些问题。 为什么？ 人类心智发生这种退化， 进而行动变得不完整，其本质是什么？ 大家理解吗？ 为什么这个头脑变得如此渺小， 封闭，不能考虑全面不能从整体上去运作， 而是活在一个小小的院子里？ 其根源是什么？ 继续，先生们。思考一下，我们来稍微讨论一下这个问题。
5:54 The other day you were asking: why is it that I have heard you for 52 or 40 years and I have not changed at all? There have been little changes, modifications, perhaps I am no longer a nationalist, no longer belong to any particular organised group of religious thinking, don’t superficially belong to any sect or to any guru, to all that circus that goes on. But deeply one remains more or less the same. Perhaps more refined, the self-centredness is a little less active, less aggressive, more refined, more yielding, a little more considerate, but the root remains. Have you noticed this? Why? We are talking about the eradication of that root, not the peripheral frills and the peripheral clipping. We are talking about the very root of one’s active, conscious or unconscious egocentricism. 前几天你们问：我已经听你讲了 52年或者40年了，为什么我毫无变化呢？ 细小的变化和调整是有的， 可能我不再是国家主义者，不再属于 任何有组织的宗教思想团体， 不再浅薄地从属于任何派别或者古鲁， 等等， 所有那些马戏表演我都不再参与了。 但在骨子里，你和以前没什么两样。 可能更有教养了，不那么自我中心了， 不那么咄咄逼人了，比以前更有礼貌，更加顺从， 对他人也会稍加体谅，但是，那个根子并没动。 大家注意到了吗？这是为什么？ 我们讨论的是将那个根子给拔除， 而不是在外围修修剪剪。 我们讨论的是，你那个活跃的 有意识或者无意识的自我中心主义的根源。
8:05 Is it because we need time? Please, go into it. Time, that is, give me time. Man has existed for millions and millions of years, that root has not been uprooted and put aside. Time has not solved it. Right? Please, give your mind to this. Evolution, which is the movement of time, has not solved this. We have better bathrooms, better communications, and so on, but man, the human being is essentially what he has been a million years ago. It is a tragic thing if one realises it. And if one is serious, not just while you are here in this tent, serious right through your life, your daily life, don’t you ever ask: can this self-centred activity with all its problems, can it ever end? If you asked it seriously, and if one realises: time, thought – we went into it the other day – time and thought are similar, they are the same movement, and thought and time have not solved this problem. And that is the only instrument we have. And we never seem to realise that instrument, which is the movement of thought, however limited, that movement cannot solve the problems. And yet we hold on to that. We hold on to the old instrument. Right? 是因为需要时间吗？我们来讨论一下。 时间，就是说，给我时间。 人类的存在，已经有千百万年了， 那个根子，一直没有给拔出来扔掉。 时间并没有解决这个问题。 对吧？ 请用心思考一下。 进化，也就是时间的运动，没有解决这个问题。 我们拥有了更方便的浴室，更先进的通讯设备等等，但是人类 本质上还是他100万年前的样子。 意识到这一点，你会说这是一个悲剧。 如果你是严肃的，不只是坐在这个帐篷里的时候， 这种严肃贯穿于你的日常生活，难道你不曾问过 这种自我中心的活动和它带来的所有问题能否结束？ 如果你严肃地问过这个问题，如果你意识到时间，思想 ——前几天我们讨论过——时间和思想是相似的，它们 是相同的运动，而思想和时间未曾解决这个问题。 那是我们唯一的工具。 我们似乎从未认识到那个工具，也就是思想的 运动其实是局限的，那种运动解决不了问题。 可我们还是执着于那个工具。 抓着过去的工具不放。 对吧？
11:02 Thought has created all these problems. Right? That is obvious. The problems of nationality, problems which war creates, problems of religions, all that is the movement of thought which is limited. And that very thought has created this centre. Right? Obviously. And yet we don’t seem to be able to find a new instrument. Right? We don’t find a new instrument but, as we cannot let go the old instrument, and holding on to it, we hope to find the new. You follow? You must let go something to find the new. Right? If you see a path leading up to the top of the mountain and it doesn’t lead you up there, you investigate. You don’t stick to that path. So one asks: what is it, why is it that human beings are so incredibly stupid? They have wars, they have this fragmentation of nationalities, of religions, all the rest of it, and yet they live in this, miserable, unhappy, quarrelling, conflicts, strife – you follow? 思想制造了所有这些问题。 对吧？那是不言而喻的。 国家主义问题，战争造成的问题， 宗教问题，全都是局限的思想的运动， 而正是那个思想造成了这个中心。 对吗？显然如此。 可是我们似乎找不到一种新的工具。 是不是？ 我们没有发现新的工具，只因我们舍不得扔掉旧的。 我们执着于它，同时又希望发现新的工具。 你跟上了吗？ 你必须有所舍弃，然后才能发现新的东西。 对吧？ 一条路，如果你发现 沿着它走到不了山顶，你就会去调查。 你不会非走那条路不可。 所以我们问： 这是怎么回事？为什么人类是如此不可思议的愚蠢？ 他们发动战争，他们这样分裂成不同的国家， 不同的宗教，等等，可是他们的生活依然 悲惨，不幸，充满争吵、冲突和争斗——大家明白吗？
13:17 Now, what will make a human being let go the old instrument and look for the new? You understand? Look for the new. Is it that we are lazy? Is it that we are frightened? Is it, if I let go this, will you guarantee the other? You understand? Which means, one has lived with this limited thought, and one thinks one has found security in there, and is afraid to let that go, and it is only when there is abandonment of the old, you can find the new. Obviously. 那么什么才能让人类 放弃旧的工具，去寻找新的工具呢？ 你能理解吗？寻找新的工具。 是我们太懒了吗？是我们害怕吗？ 是因为这种念头：我舍掉这个，你能保证我得到那个吗？ 大家理解吗？ 这意味着你和这个局限的思想是生活在一起的，你以为 在那里找到了安全，所以害怕丢掉它， 可是唯有抛弃旧的，你才能发现新的。 这是不言而喻的。
14:34 So is it, we are asking, is it fear? Because you observe the multiplication of gurus all over the world, guaranteeing security: ‘Do this, follow this, practise this, and you will have something at the end of it’. That is, reward. The promise of a reward has a certain fascination and the hope you will find in that – security. But when you examine it a little more closely, and are not so gullible, not swallow the whole thing the other fellow says, then you find very clearly that the reward is the reaction of punishment, you understand? Because we are trained to the idea of reward and punishment. Right? This is obvious. So to escape from punishment, which means pain, grief, and all that, we search for a reward and hope thereby in that to find some kind of security, some kind of peace, some kind of happiness. But when you go into it, you don’t find it. The gurus and the priests may promise it, but they are just words. Right? 所以，我们问的是，原因在于恐惧吗？ 因为你注意到全世界有很多古鲁， 提供安全的保证——“这样做，照这个做， 练这个，最后你就会如何如何”。 那就是，奖励。 奖励的许诺具有一定的诱惑力， 还会让你在安全感中找到某种希望。 可是如果你稍微仔细地调查一下，不是过于天真地 把别人的话囫囵吞下，你就会 非常清楚地发现，奖励是对惩罚的心理反应，你理解吗？ 因为我们受到了奖励和惩罚观念的训练。 是不是？显然如此。 于是，为了躲避惩罚，躲避痛苦、悲伤之类的东西， 我们寻找奖励，希望由此找到某种 安全，安宁和幸福。 而你去调查一下，就会发现，你并没有找到。 古鲁和牧师们可能做了承诺，但那只不过是空话。 对吧？ 那么我们人类该如何一起去探讨这个问题，是否
16:48 So how do we, human beings, go into this question together whether it is possible to eradicate totally this poisonous self-interest, self-centred activity? Right? I do not know if you have ever asked even that question. When you do ask that question you have already begun to be a little more intelligent. Naturally. So we are going this morning, together, to think this problem over, together. Thinking together, not I tell you and you accept, or reject, but together find out if this movement of the ego, the self, can ever end. Right? Are you interested in this? No, no, don’t say it’s… nod your heads. This is a very serious problem. You may be stimulated while you are in the tent by the speaker, and I hope you are not. But you may be stimulated and therefore rather excited and say, ‘Yes, I agree with you. We must do this’ – and when you leave the tent, you forget all about it and carry on in your old ways. So together, you putting aside your particular prejudice, your particular gurus, your particular conclusions, together we are going to investigate this question. 有可能把这个毒害人类的自私自利、 自我中心的行为彻底根除？ 对吧？ 不知你是否可曾问过那个问题， 你要是真的提出那个问题， 你已经有点儿开窍了。 那是自然的。 所以，今天上午，我们一起来思考一下这个问题，一起。 一起思考，不是我告诉你，你要么接受，要么拒绝，而是一起 去弄清楚自我的运动，自我，是否能够结束。 好吗？大家对此有兴趣吗？ 这是一个非常严肃的问题。 坐在这个帐篷里，你可能会受到讲话者的激励， 但愿你没有。 可是你可能会受到激励，于是你相当激动地说： “对，我赞同你的意见，我们必须这么做。” ——可是你离开帐篷后， 你就忘得一干二净，依然故我。 让我们一起，你把你的偏见， 你的古鲁，你的结论都放下， 咱们一起来调查这个问题。
19:27 To investigate you must be free. Right? It is obvious, isn’t it? You must be free to examine, you must be free from those blocks which impede your examination. The impediments are your prejudice, your experience, your own knowledge or other people’s knowledge – all those act as impediments, and then you cannot possibly have the capacity to examine or think together. Right? At least intellectually see this. The speaker has none of these problems: he has no prejudice, no belief either. Finished. Only then we can meet together if you are also in that same position. 要调查，你就必须是自由的。 对吧？这无需解释，是吧？ 你必须是自由的，才能去考察， 你必须摆脱那些妨碍你进行考察的障碍。 那些障碍就是你的偏见、经验，你自己的 或者他人的知识，这些都会起到阻碍的作用， 都会使你无法进行考察，无法一起思考。 对吧？ 至少在理智上看到这一点。 讲话者没有这些问题： 他既没有偏见也没有信仰。 那些都已结束。 只有你也做到这一点，我们才能沟通上。
20:50 So let us examine, think over, think together. To think together over this question why human beings right throughout the world, have remained self-centred, knowing all the problems it entails, knowing all the confusion, misery, sorrow it involves, they hold on to it. Right? Now we are asking: is it desire? You know what desire is. We are asking, is it, the root of this self-centred activity, desire? What is desire? We all desire so many things: desire for enlightenment, desire for happiness, desire for good looks, desire for what... a world that will be peaceful, desire to fulfil and avoid frustration – you understand? – desire, by which all human beings are driven. Do you follow this? We are asking, is that one of the root causes of this self-centred existence with all its confusion and misery? 咱们考察一下，仔细思考，一起思考。 一起仔细思考这个问题，为什么全世界的人 依然以自我为中心？ 他们知道这会造成所有的问题，所有的混乱、 不幸和痛苦，却还是执着于自我中心？ 对吧？ 我们问：是因为欲望吗？ 大家知道欲望是什么。 我们的问题是：这个根源，这种自我中心的行为的根源是欲望吗？ 什么是欲望？ 我们都渴望很多很多东西，渴望开悟， 渴望幸福，渴望美貌，渴望 和平的世界，渴望如愿以偿，回避挫折沮丧， 大家明白吗？欲望，全人类都受欲望的驱使。 这一点清楚了吗？ 我们问，这种自我中心的生活 充满混乱和不幸，欲望是其根源之一吗？ 全世界的宗教都认为你必须压制欲望。
23:19 And religions throughout the world have said you must suppress desire. Right? You must become a monk, in the service of God, and to attain that supreme thing you must have no desire. You understand? This has been the constant repetition of all the so-called religious people in the world. And without understanding what is the structure and nature of desire they have had this ideal that to serve the highest principle, Brahman in India, God or Christ in this world, in the Christian world, or other forms of religious sectarian nonsense, suppress, control, dominate desire. Right? 是这样吧？ 你必须出家为僧，在对神的虔诚信仰中， 要获取至高之物，你不能有任何欲望。 大家明白吗？ 这已经是全世界 所谓宗教人士的老生常谈了。 他们没有认识到欲望的结构和本质， 却形成了这样一种理想：要想侍奉万物本源，即印度 的大梵，即这个世界、基督教世界的上帝或基督，或者其它 教派的胡扯的东西，你就得压抑、控制和征服欲望。 对吧？
24:53 Now we together are going to look into what is desire. Now when you examine what is desire – please, listen carefully – when you examine what is desire or analyse, you are using thought as a means of analysis. That is, going into the past. You are following this? And so you are using the old instrument, which is limited thought, and looking into the past, step by step, which is the whole psychoanalytical process. You are following all this? But to examine desire, you must see the actuality of it, not step it back. You understand what I am saying? Please, come with me a little bit. You must be very clear on this point. The psychoanalytical introspective self-examination process is going backwards, and thereby hoping to find the cause. Right? To do that, you employ thought. Right? And thought is limited, the old instrument, and you are using the old instrument to find the root of desire. 现在，我们一起来考察一下什么是欲望。 而当你调查什么是欲望的时候， 请仔细听好——当你调查或者分析什么是欲望的时候， 你是在把思想当作分析的工具。 那就是走进过去.大家明白这个吗？ 于是你就在使用这个过去的工具， 也就是局限的思想，一步一步地 考察过去，这就是心理分析的整个过程。 这些大家都清楚吧？ 而要想考察欲望，你必须看到它的实际情况，不是往回追溯。 大家理解我正在讲的东西吗？ 请再跟上我一点。 对此你必须非常清楚。 心理分析的自我内省过程是 在往回走，并希望由此来发现原因。 对吧？ 进行心理分析，你需要运用思想。 对吧？ 而思想是局限的、陈旧的工具， 你是在用陈旧的工具来发现欲望的根源。
27:17 Now we are saying something entirely different. Please, give a little attention to this. We are saying analysis by oneself or by the professional, doesn’t lead anywhere, unless you are slightly neurotic, and all the rest of it – that may be a little helpful. Perhaps we are all slightly neurotic! We are saying: observe the nature of desire. Don’t analyse, just observe. You understand the difference? Is this clear? I am going to show it to you. You see, must everything be explained, which is too bad. You don’t jump to it and say, ‘Yes, I have got it!’. All that you say is, ‘Explain, and I will get it. Explain the whole movement of desire, employ the words, correct words, describe it precisely and I’ll get it’. What you get is the clarity of explanation, clarity of words, but that doesn’t give you the total observation of the movement of desire. You have got this? 现在我们说的是完全不同的东西。 这一点，请稍微注意一下。 我们说无论是你自己 还是专家做的分析都不会有任何结果，除非你有 轻微的神经官能症之类的问题，那样的话，它也许会有点用。 可能我们都有点神经官能症， 我们说：观察欲望的本质。 不要分析，就是观察。大家认识到二者的差异了吗？ 这一点清楚了吗？ 我准备把它展示给你看。 你看，每一样东西都得解释，实在太糟糕了。 你们就不会一下子明白过来，然后说：“我懂了！” 你们就会说：“给我解释一下，我就理解了。 用言语，正确的言语解释欲望的整个运动， 做一个精确的描述，我就明白了”。 你得到的是清晰的解释，清晰的话语， 可是，那不会让你对欲望的运动有个完整的观察。 这一点理解了吗？
29:50 So can you stop analysing but just observe? You understand? Have you got it? Are we meeting each other? One can describe the beauty of the mountain, the white snow, the blue sky, the marvellous dignity and the glory of it, the valleys, the rivers, the streams, flowers, and most of us are satisfied with the explanations. We don’t say, ‘I’ll go, get up, climb and find out’. 那么，你能停止分析而只是观察吗？ 理解了吗？清楚了吗？ 我们之间沟通上了吗？ 你可以描述山峦之美，白雪、蓝天、 它不可思议的庄严和壮丽，山谷、河流、 小溪和鲜花，我们大多满足于那些解释。 我们不说，“我要出发，我要起身，去攀登，去发现。”
30:53 We are going into this question of desire very carefully, not the movement of tracing it back and thereby hoping to find the nature of desire. You understand? But actively together look at it. What is desire? Look at it yourself. Together we are doing it. What is desire? You desire a dress, which you see in the window, and there is the response. You like the colour, the shape, the fashion, and desire says, ‘Let me go and buy it’. So what has taken place actually at that moment? Which is not analysis, but actually observing the reaction to the seeing of that dress in the window, and the response to that. You are following this? Yes? You are following this? Don’t go to sleep, please! You see that dress, you like the colour, you like the fashion – what has taken place there? You observe, there is the sensation. Right? There is contact, you touch it, then desire arises through the image which thought has built: you putting on that dress. Right? You understand this? Seeing, sensation, contact, then thought imagining that dress on you, and then desire. You follow this? No, not follow me, the fact of it. I have only given an explanation, the words, but the actual response – we are talking of the actual response: the seeing, contact, sensation, thought imagining that dress on you, and desire is born. You understand? Have you got this? No, no, yours, not mine. 我们在非常仔细地讨论欲望的问题，这不是往回 追溯它的那种运动，不是希望由此发现欲望的本质。 大家明白吗？ 而是积极地一起去观察它。 什么是欲望？你自己观察它。 我们一起来观察。什么是欲望？ 你在橱窗里看到一件连衣裙，你渴望得到它，存在着一个反应。 你喜欢这种颜色、 这种外形和款式，欲望说:“我要进去把它买下来”。 那么，那个时候实际发生了什么？ 这不是分析，而是实际观察 看到橱窗中那件连衣裙的反应，所带来的心理情绪变化。 这一点清楚吗？ 这一点清楚吗？ 拜托，别睡着了！ 你看到那件连衣裙，你喜欢那种颜色， 你喜欢那个款式，那时发生了什么？ 你观察，这里存在着感觉。 对吧？ 存在接触,你抚摸它，然后思想想象 你穿上了那件连衣裙，欲望通过这个形象产生出来。 对吧？大家理解吗？ 看见，感觉，抚摸， 然后思想想象你穿上连衣裙的样子，然后产生欲望。 大家跟上了吗？ 不是跟着我，是清楚这个过程的实际情况。 我只不过给出了一个解释，那是一堆词语，可是实际的反应， 我们谈的是实际的反应；看见，抚摸， 感觉，思想想象你穿上连衣裙，然后欲望产生了。 大家理解吗？明白了吗？ 不，理解你的反应，不是我的。

问：我没明白。
34:39 Q: I don’t get it. 克：等一下，仔细理解这一点。
34:42 K: Now, wait, follow this carefully. The moment thought creates the image, from that image desire is born. Right? You understand this? Please, understand this. Oh, I am tired. I am bored with explanations! I will stick to that dress, or the shirt. You see, there is perception of that in the window, the seeing, the visual optic response, then go inside, touch the material, then thought says, ‘How nice it would be if I had it’. And imagine that you are wearing it. That is the moment of desire. Right? Do you see this, actually, not my explanation and through the explanations you see? Is that clear, that you yourself observe the happening? 思想一旦制造出形象来，欲望就从这个形象中产生了。 对吧？ 一定要理解这一点。哎呦，我累了。 我都解释烦了。 我继续以那件连衣裙或者衬衣为例。 你看，存在对橱窗里面那件衣服的感知，看见， 视觉的反应，然后，走到里面抚摸衣服的料子， 然后思想说，“要是我有这件衣服该多好”。 并想象着你把它穿在身上的样子。 那就是欲望的瞬间。 对吧？大家实际看到了吗？ 不是我的解释，不是通过我的解释去看。 清楚了吗？是你们自己去观察正在发生的事情。
36:29 Now the question is – please, go into it carefully – why does thought create the image: you having that shirt, that dress, and then pursuing it? Watch it. Think it out. Go into it. Exercise your brains. One sees a blue shirt. Then you see it, go and touch it, feel the material, then thought comes and says, ‘How nice’. Now, the question is: can thought abstain itself from creating the image? You understand my question? I will explain, take time, I will go into it. 现在的问题是——请仔细审视这个问题 ， 为什么思想制造 你拥有那件衬衣、那件连衣裙的形象，然后追逐这个形象？ 观察一下。 好好地仔细想想。锻炼一下你的大脑。 你看到一件蓝色衬衣， 然后你就端详它，走过去，抚摸 它的料子，然后思想冒出来说，“太好了”。 那么问题就是：思想能自觉地避免自己制造形象吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？ 我会解释，慢慢来，我会详细解释。
37:46 We are examining the whole movement of desire, because we are asking: is desire the very root of this self-centred, egotistic existence? And from that we are asking: is it desire? And then we say: what is desire? And the speaker is totally opposed to suppression because that doesn’t solve the problem. Totally he says: don’t run away from it into a monastery, into taking vows, and all kinds of things – that is merely avoidance. But what we are saying is: examine it, look at it, not analytically, but as it is taking place – observe. The observation shows, the optic response to the blue dress, blue shirt, the contact, inside, going into the shop, touching the material, then thought creates the image and desire is born. It is only when thought creates the image, desire comes into being. Otherwise it does not. Are you now together in this? Right? 我们正在审视欲望的整个运动，因为我们在问： 欲望是否就是这种自我中心、自私自利的生活方式的根源？ 从那里引出我们的问题：这个根源是欲望吗？ 然后我们问：什么是欲望？ 讲话者完全反对 压制的行为，因为那不解决问题。 他说绝对不要逃避欲望，不要躲到寺庙里， 躲到持戒之类的活动中去，——那只不过是逃避。 而我们说的是对它进行检查、审视， 不是分析，而是在事情发生的时候去观察。 你会观察到，对蓝色连衣裙、蓝色衬衣的视觉反应， 接触，走进店里，抚摸料子， 然后思想制造出形象，欲望产生出来。 只有当思想制造出形象的时候，欲望才会出现。 否则它不会出现。你和我一起观察到这个现象了吗？ 是这样吗？
39:56 So desire comes into being and flowers the moment you create the image, thought creates the image. You have had a pleasant experience, sexual or whatever you have. And it has created an image, a picture, and you pursue it. One is a form of pleasure, the other is the movement of contradictory desires. Right? You desire that dress – or desire great success, and so on and on. Now, can you observe this fact that the moment when thought creates the image, desire is born? Are you aware of this? Do you see actually as it happens, how thought creates through its imagination the desire to pursue the very end. Right? Do you actually now sitting there, observe this fact for yourself? Obviously, it is very simple. Right? 所以，在你制造形象的瞬间欲望就产生并绽放， 思想制造出形象。 假设你有过一次愉快的体验，性体验或者无论什么体验。 它制造了一个形象、一幅画面，然后你去追逐它。 一个是快乐的一种形式， 另一个是相反的欲望的运动。 是不是? 你渴望那件连衣裙——或者渴望巨大的成功等等。 现在你能否看到那个事实 就是一旦思想制造出形象来，欲望就会产生？ 大家意识到这个了吗？ 在事情发生的时候，你确实看到，思想通过想象 制造出那个直指目标的欲望的这个过程了吗？ 是这样吗？ 大家现在坐在那儿的时候，确实亲自看到这个事实了吗？ 那很明显，那非常简单。 对吧？
41:57 The question arises then: can thought not create the image? That is the whole point. You understand? Am I making this terribly difficult? 接下来的问题就是：思想能否不制造形象？ 这是全部问题的关键。大家明白吗？ 我讲得太难懂了吗？
42:14 Questioner: May I suggest that the new instrument is the object? 提问者：我可以提个建议？我们的目标是找到新的工具。
42:19 K: Just a minute, sir, let me finish and then we can carry on. May I finish? May I finish what I am saying? And then you can ask questions if there is time, and we have five discussions after the talks are over. Then you can bully me! So till then have patience. 克：稍等一下先生，让我讲完，然后我们可以继续讨论。 我可以讲完吗？我可以把话说完吗？ 然后，如果有时间，你就可以提问题， 这些谈话之后还有5次讨论。 到时候你们可以折腾我！（笑声） 那么在此之前请保持耐心
43:00 We have come to the point when you yourself observe the springing of desire. Right? Perception, seeing, contact, sensation. Up to there, there is no desire. It is just a reaction. You follow? But the moment thought creates the image the whole cycle begins. Do you see this? If you see it clearly, then the question arises: why does thought always create this image? You understand my question? Why? You see a shirt, red, blue, white, whatever it is, instantly like and dislike, which is, thought has its previous experiences, liking, and so on. So can you observe the blue shirt, dress in the window, and realise the nature of thought, and see that the moment when thought comes in, the problem begins? Not only the blue shirt or dress, your sex, your sexual experiences, the image, the pictures, the thinking over. Or the image that you have of a position, a status, a function. Do you follow? So desire is that. So can you observe without the inflaming desire coming into being? You understand my question? Go into it, you will see it. You can do it. That is the new instrument, which is to observe. 我们讲到了这个地方，就是你们自己观察欲望的产生。 对吧？ 知觉、看见、接触、感觉。 一直到那一步，欲望是不存在的。那只是反应。 大家明白吗？ 可是一旦思想制造出形象，整个循环就开始了。 大家看到这个了吗？ 如果你清晰地看到了，那么问题就出来了： 为什么思想总是制造出形象？ 大家理解我的问题吗？为什么？ 你看到一件衬衣，红的，蓝的，白的，不管什么颜色，马上你就会喜欢 或者不喜欢，也就是，思想有它过去的经验、喜好等等。 那么你能否观察那件蓝衬衣， 橱窗里的连衣裙，认识到思想的本质， 明白思想的介入，便是问题的开始。 不仅指这件蓝衬衣或者连衣裙，你的性， 性体验，形象，画面和内心的思忖，也是一样。 或者你拥有某个职位、 地位或者行使什么职责的形象， 大家明白吗？那就是欲望. 那么你能否在观察的同时不生出燃烧的欲望吗？ 大家理解我的问题吗？探究一下，你就会明白。 你可以做到这一点。 那就是新的工具，就是观察。 然而，对于安全的渴望，——跟上——是一回事，
46:00 Then does desire for security – follow: same thing – security in terms of big house, little house, bank account, which may be necessary, and also security desire has created about oneself, the image that you have about yourself, and the fulfilment of that image in action, in that is involved many kinds of frustrations, and in spite of the frustrations, in spite of conflicts, misery, desire pursues, because thought is always creating the image where there is sensation involved. Right? I wonder if you see this! 拥有大房子、小房子，拥有也许必要的银行账户 方面的安全，还有欲望为你自己制造的安全， 你塑造的自己的形象，在行动中实现这个形象， 其中包括各种挫折，失败， 尽管遭受那些挫折，尽管有冲突和 不幸，欲望依然要去追逐，因为只要牵涉到感觉， 思想总会制造出形象来。 对吧？不知大家是否看到了！
47:11 So we’re asking then, the next question is: is desire responsible for fear? We have sought security through desire and the fulfilment of that desire in God, psychologically – I don’t want to go on and on about this beastly stuff – and unconsciously, deeply, one may be aware that the things in which you have invested, desire has invested, have no value at all. And having no value, you are frightened. You understand? Are you following this? Because, again, we are not analysing fear. That is a stupid old game. We are observing the actual fact of fear. And as it arises, to observe, ask, what is the root of it? Not analytically discover the root of it, but in the very observation of it you discover the root. You get it? Are you following all this? You seem rather doubtful. I am going to go into this. 那么我们问的下一个问题是：欲望应该为恐惧负责吗？ 我们曾经通过欲望和对那个欲望的满足来寻找安全， 在心理上，从上帝那里，——我不想没完没了地讲 这些讨厌的东西——在无意识中，你在内心深处可能会意识到 你投入心思， 梦寐以求的东西根本就毫无价值。 它毫无价值，这让你吓坏了。 大家理解吗？这些大家都清楚了吗？ 因为，再次提醒大家，我们现在不是在分析恐惧。 那是愚蠢的游戏。 我们是在观察恐惧实际的情况。 当它升起的时候,我们观察它，我们问，它的根源是什么？ 不是用分析的方法去发现它的根源， 而正是在对它的观察中发现它的根源。 大家明白了吗？ 这些大家都明白了吗？ 你们看上去相当疑惑。 我来探究一下。
49:23 Man has accepted and lived with fear, both outwardly and inwardly: fear of violence, fear of physically getting hurt, and so on, outwardly. Psychologically, fear of not conforming to a pattern, fear of public opinion, fear of not achieving, not fulfilling, and so on, you know, psychologically. We are asking – which is a fact – can you observe that fact without the analytical mind operating on the fact, and observe the whole movement of fear as it exists? You understand? 在外在和内心里，人类都接受了伴有恐惧的生活： 在外部，害怕暴力，害怕身体受到伤害等等。 在心理上，害怕没有服从一种模式， 害怕公众的看法，害怕不能成功， 害怕不能实现等等，你知道，在心理上。 我们问,对于上述事实， 你能否观察它，不用分析的头脑来处理 这个事实，当恐惧存在的时候，如实地观察恐惧的整个运动。 大家明白吗？
50:33 Are you getting tired? Ten minutes more. Bear up with it! Because, you see, it is possible to be absolutely psychologically free of fear, absolutely. Don’t accept my word for it, it is your life, it’s not mine, it is yours, you have to find this out. 大家累了吗？ 还有10分钟。再坚持一会儿！ 因为你看到，在心理上完全 彻底地摆脱恐惧是可能的。 请不要接受我的话，这是你的生活， 不是我的，这是你的生活，你必须把它弄清楚。
51:13 So you have to ask: what is fear? Has it its roots in desire? Go into it slowly, don’t say no. Go into it. Desire being what we have said: thought creating the image and then pursuing that image and might fulfil, might not. You follow? If it fulfils, there is no fear, or at least there are other calamities involved in it. But when there is no fulfilment, there is frustration and the fear of not being able to fulfil. You understand? I mean, this whole complex sexual fulfilment, which apparently the world is now just discovering it and making a lot of noise about it – promiscuous, and all the rest of it. So we are asking: is fear the product of desire? Desire being the image-formation and the fulfilment of that image in action. Right? Or is fear – please, follow this carefully – part of time? You understand? Is fear the movement of time? So are desire and time responsible for fear? You understand? Oh, my Lord! I will explain, I will explain. Go slowly. 那么你一定要问：什么是恐惧？ 它的根源在欲望中吗？ 我们慢慢地探究它，不要说不是。探究它。 欲望正如我们所说：是思想造成形象， 然后追求这个形象，这可能会实现，也可能实现不了。 大家明白吗？ 如果它实现了，就没有恐惧 除非遭遇了有别的灾祸。 可是如果没有实现， 就会有沮丧和对于不能实现的恐惧。 大家明白吗？ 我指的是整个这个复杂的性满足问题 显然世人正在发现这个问题 并为此闹得沸沸扬扬，性开放啦，等等、等等。 那么我们问：恐惧是欲望的产物吗？ 欲望是形成形象和在行动中实现那个形象。 对吧？ 或者，恐惧——请仔细弄清楚这一点——是时间的一部分吗？ 大家明白吗？恐惧是时间的运动吗？ 那么欲望和时间需要对恐惧负责吗？ 大家理解吗？哦，天哪！ 我会解释，我会解释。慢慢来。
53:52 Desire is the movement of thought with its imagery. That is, the movement of thought creating the image and the movement of that image, which is time – right? 欲望是思想的意向运动。 即思想制造形象的运动 和那个形象本身的运动，这就是时间——对吧？
54:18 No? Not chronological time, psychological time. And we are asking: is time responsible also for fear? The time of desire – ah, I am getting it! You get it? The time which desire creates and thought, which has created the desire, and thought being also time, so thought and desire are responsible for fear. You see that? I am afraid what you might do to me. I am afraid you might hurt me, psychologically. I am afraid that dog will bite me. But at the moment of biting time has come to an end. You understand? It is only: the dog might bite me. I have created the image, thought has created the image that dog biting, which is time, in the future. You are following all this? So desire has its future, and time is naturally future, the past, present and future. 不是吗？ 不是按照事件发生顺序的时间，而是心理时间。 我们问的是：时间是否也应对恐惧负责？ 欲望的时间——哦，我明白了！ 大家明白了吗？ 欲望造成的时间，制造出欲望的思想， 思想也是时间，所以思想和欲望要对恐惧负责。 大家看到这个了吗？ 我害怕你想把我怎么样？ 我在心理上害怕你可能伤害我。 我担心那条狗咬我。 而且咬的瞬间(笑声)，时间已经结束。 大家明白吗？我担心的：只是狗可能咬我。 我制造的这个形象，思想制造了这个形象， 狗咬人，即未来的时间。 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 所以欲望有其未来，时间自然是未来， 过去，现在和未来。
56:13 So the question is: can thought realise its own movement creating fear? You understand? Thought realising its own nature. When it realises its own nature, as the active principle in fear, what takes place? There is only then what is actually happening. I wonder if you see that. Do, please, come! Because it would be worthwhile if we could think together about this matter. Then you will leave the tent having understood the movement of fear and realising the nature of desire and the nature of limited thought creating time, which is fear. You understand? Do you realise it? Or have you merely accepted the words? You understand? If you realise it, the thing is over. There are no gurus, no God, all that nonsense. 所以，问题就是：思想能意识到它自身的制造恐惧的运动吗？ 大家明白吗？——思想意识到它自身的性质。 当它意识到它的本性 是恐惧当中的真正起作用的因素的时候，发生了什么情况？ 只有那个时候，才会有真正的事情发生。 不知大家是否明白了。嗨！一定要思考一下啊。 因为这个问题很值得我们一起去思考。 然后,你离开这个帐篷时, 你已经理解了恐惧的运动,并认识到欲望的本质 以及局限的思想制造出时间的本质就是恐惧。 大家理解了吗？大家认识到这一点了吗？ 还是说，你只是接受了言语的解释？ 大家明白吗？ 如果你认识到了这个，事情就结束了。 古鲁，上帝，所有那些胡说八道的东西都是不存在的。
58:11 Q: My thought does not stop. I have been listening... 问：我的思想停不下来。我听了…
58:17 K: No, no, thought, it is not a question of thought stopping. No, no, don’t say thought – we will discuss that a little later when we talk about meditation, if you are interested. But that is not the point. I am saying: does thought itself realise what it is doing? That it has created the desire, and the fulfilment of that desire is time. And in that is involved fear. And also thought has created what might happen. There has been pain – I hope there won’t be pain again, which is in the future. So thought has created the future. Right? And the future is the very nature of fear. I wonder if you get it! 克：不是思想，不是停止思想的问题。 不要提思想——稍后我们会讨论它的， 等我们谈到冥想的时候，要是你有兴趣的话。 可是问题不在那儿。 我说的是：思想自己意识到它在做什么了吗？ 它制造了欲望，而对那个欲望的实现就是时间。 其中包含着恐惧。 思想还制造了可能发生的事情。 我曾经遭受过痛苦， 我希望不再遭受痛苦，这就是未来。 所以，思想制造了未来。 对吧？ 未来正是恐惧的本质。 这一点大家清楚了吧！
59:31 Look, sir: if I die instantly, there is no fear. If I have an immediate heart attack – phht, gone, there is no fear. But, my heart is weak, I might die, which is the future. The future is the movement of fear. Get it? See the truth of it, not your conclusion, not your saying ‘Yes, I see it’. – the truth of it. 先生，你看：假如我一瞬间就死掉，我是不会有恐惧的 假如我心脏病突然发作——（笑声） 死了，恐惧是不存在的。 可是我心脏不好，可能会死，这就是未来。 未来是恐惧的运动。明白了吗？ 重要的是看到其中的真相，而不是你的结论，你说的： “我明白了”。——看到真相才真的明白。
1:00:16 Then that very truth operates. You don’t have to do a thing. If you see that truth, and that truth being a fact, then thought says, ‘All right, I have finished’. Thought cannot operate on a fact. It can operate on something which is non-fact. So can you, after having listened to this verbiage, have you realised the nature of fear? See the truth of it. If you really see the truth of it, fear has gone. It is not that you control thought. You are the thought. You understand? This is one of our peculiar conditioning that you are different from thought, and therefore you say, ‘I will control thought’. 然后，起作用的正是真相。你无需做任何事情。 如果你看到了真相，那个真相是事实， 那么思想就会说：“好的，我结束了”。 思想控制不了事实。 它能够控制的是非事实。 听完这些废话（笑声）… 你认识的恐惧的本质了吗？ 看到恐惧的真相。 如果你确实看到了它的真相，恐惧就消失了。 这不是你控制思想的结果。 你就是思想。你明白吗？ 我们受到的一个奇怪的制约就是认为你不同于 你的思想，于是你说：“我要控制思想”。
1:01:53 Q: If we are different from thought... 问：要是我们不同于思想…
1:01:57 K: But when you realise that thought itself is the ‘me’ and that thought has created this future, which is fear, and see the truth of it, not intellectually see the truth, you can’t see the truth intellectually. You can see intellectually the clear verbal explanation, but that is not the truth. The truth is the fact that the future, the whole movement of the future, is giving birth to fear. 克：可是如果你意识到了思想本身就是“我”，那个思想 创造了未来，即恐惧，看到这个真相， 不是用智力看到真相，你是不可能用智力看到真相的 你可以用智力看清 言语的解释，但那不是真相。 真相是未来、 未来的整个运动催生出恐惧这个事实。
1:02:45 Now, you have listened to this, perhaps in different ways and different explanations on different occasions, and you are gathered here again, and you have listened this morning to a very clear explanation, which is not analysis, and are you free of fear? That is the test. If you are still carrying on, you say, ‘I am afraid of...’ – you know, all the rest of that business, then you haven’t really listened. 关于这个问题，你们可能在不同场合 听到过不同方式的解释，你们 在这里再次汇合，今天上午，你们听到了一个非常 清晰的解释，而不是分析，那么你们摆脱恐惧了吗？ 这是一个测验。 如果你依然恐惧，你说：“我担心…”——你知道， 所有那类问题，那么你就没有真正听过。
1:03:42 May we continue with this on Thursday, the day after tomorrow morning? May we? 我们星期三，就是后天上午继续讨论这个问题，好吗？ 好吗？