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SA79T7 - 心灵在彻底的寂静中邂逅永恒
第七次公开讲话，
瑞士，萨能，
1979年7月22日



0:46 Krishnamurti: I believe this is the last talk. On Wednesday we will have some dialogues for five days. Why are you all sitting so quietly? 这次应该是最后一次谈话了。 从星期三开始，我们会有五天的讨论。 你们怎么都这么安静地坐着？
1:12 I wonder if you have ever noticed, our minds are very rarely very quiet, silent, having no problems, or having problems, putting them aside for a while, and having a free mind, a mind that is not cluttered, a mind that is not stretching out, not seeking anything; but absolutely quiet, silent, and perhaps observing not only what is happening in the world, but also what is happening in the inner world, in the world of one’s own existence, one’s own attitudes, travails – just to observe. I wonder if one has ever done this kind of thing. Or, are we always seeking, searching, asking, analysing, demanding, trying to fulfil, trying to follow somebody, some ideal, and so on, or trying to establish a good relationship with another? I wonder why there is this constant struggle and strife and seeking. One goes to India – I don’t know why – seeking something extraordinary that is going to happen when you go to that country, follow somebody who tells you to dance, to sing, to do whatever you want. And there are those who try to force you to meditate in a certain fashion, accept authority, do certain rituals, shout when you like, and so on. Why are we all doing this? What is our everlasting thirst? What is it that we are seeking? If we could go into that a little bit, try to find out for ourselves what it is that we are longing, searching, seeking, trying to fulfil, trying to become something. 不知你们注意过没有，我们的心极少有非常安静、 沉默的时候，很少能不带任何问题，或者有问题，也能暂时放下， 从而怀有一颗自由的心，一颗毫不凌乱的心， 一颗毫无外求的心； 这颗心完全地安静、沉默，可能它在观察， 不只观察外部世界的情况，还包括内心世界， 这个你自己的存在、看法和苦恼 所构成的世界里所发生的情况——只是观察。 你做过这样的事儿吗？ 还是说，我们一直在追求、思索、提问、分析、要求， 一直试图实现什么，试图追随什么人、什么理想等等， 或者试图跟别人搞好关系？ 我在想，为什么会一直存在这种努力、斗争和追求？ 有的人去印度，我不懂是为什么，去追求什么超常的东西， 那种你到那儿可能会发生的事儿，听从什么人的指挥， 他叫你跳舞、唱歌，想干什么就干什么。（笑声） 还有些人，他们竭力迫使你按照某种方式去冥想， 接受权威、执行某些仪式，想喊就喊，想叫就叫，等等。 为什么我们全都做这种事？ 我们永恒的渴望是什么？ 我们在追求什么？ 要是我们可以稍微探究一下的话， 我们尽可能替自己弄清楚我们所渴望、思索和 追求的是什么？是什么让我们努力得到满足，努力成为什么。
5:01 Apart from the religious beliefs and dogmas and rituals which fairly intelligent people have put all those aside, and not going to Tibet or to Japan, or trying to do Zen Buddhism – you know, the whole business of it – but remaining quietly at one’s own home, or taking a solitary walk, can one ask why there is this everlasting thirst? Could we go into that a little? Because we have talked about most things during the last six talks. We have talked about fear, thinking together; we have talked about sorrow, pleasure; and we also talked about intelligence and love and compassion. As we pointed out, without intelligence, which we carefully went into, there cannot be love, or compassion. They go together. Not the intelligence of books and cunning contrivance of thought, nor the intelligence of a very clever, subtle mind, but the intelligence that perceives directly what is not true and what is false, what is dangerous, and immediately lets it go, such a quality of mind is intelligent. And if we could go into that this morning, not only into what is it that we are all seeking, longing. And perhaps as we go along, find out for ourselves what is the quality of a mind mind being all our senses, all our reactions, all our emotions and the capacity to think very clearly – all that is the mind, the essence of which is thought. And perhaps we could talk over together what is the nature of meditation, and if there is anything in life, in our daily existence, not only material activities and material possessions – money, sex, sensations – but also beyond all that, if there is something really sacred, not put together by thought, not the images that thought has created in various forms, in various cathedrals, temples, and so on, but actually, for ourselves, find out, perhaps through meditation, being free of all illusion and deceit and thinking very honestly, if there is something that is really sacred, which is the movement of meditation. 咱们抛开那些宗教信仰、教条和仪式， 思维正常的人已经把那些东西都丢开了， 也不用去西藏或者日本，或者努力修习佛教禅宗， 这种事情你都是知道的，而是安静地待在 自己的家里，或者独自一人散步， 你能否问一问，为什么会有这个永恒的渴望？ 我们可以稍微探究一下吗？ 因为在前面六次谈话中，我们几乎谈到了所有的问题。 我们谈到了恐惧、一起思考；我们谈到了悲伤、 快乐；我们还谈到了智慧、爱和慈悲。 正如我们所指出的，如果没有智慧， 我们仔细探究过智慧，就不会有爱或慈悲。 他们是携手同行的。 这不是那种来自书本的智慧，不是思想的诡计， 也不是非常聪明灵活的头脑所具有的智力； 而是直接地觉察到什么不是真的， 什么是假的，什么是危险的， 并立刻把它丢开的智慧，心的这种品质就是智慧。 今天上午，如果我们可以探究一下的话， 不只是探究我们都在追求、渴望什么东西， 而且可能在探究当中， 还为我们自己弄清楚心具有 怎样的品质——心指的是我们的全部感官、反应， 我们的全部情绪以及非常清晰地进行思考的能力， 所有这些就是心，心的本质是思想。 或许我们可以一起详细探讨一下冥想的本质， 是否在生活中，在我们日常生活当中， 不是只存在物质方面的活动，物质财产、金钱、性、 感觉，还存在着超越这一切的东西，是否存在某种 真正神圣的、而非思想拼凑起来的东西，不是那些 思想制造出来的、供奉在各种大教堂、寺庙等等 里面的五花八门的形象，而是真正地替我们自己弄清楚， 也许是通过冥想，来摆脱一切幻觉、 欺骗，非常诚实地去思考，是否存在某些 真正的神圣的东西，即冥想的运动。
9:58 So first, let us enquire, if we may, think together, what is it that we are hungering after? Most people have had various types and varieties of experiences, not only sensual experiences, but incidents that have brought about various emotional, sensational and romantic movements, but also these experiences that one has had are rather trivial, and perhaps all experiences are rather trivial. And when we begin to enquire what it is that we are all seeking, wanting, longing, is it a superficial, mere sensory or something which desire seeks, which must obviously be rather superficial? And can we, in thinking over together, move from the superficiality to a more deeper, wider enquiry? Right? That is, we are, you and the speaker, are thinking out together if all our longings are merely superficial, sensory demands, or is the longing, the searching, the thirst for something far beyond all that? You understand my question? 那么，如果可以的话，我们先来调查一下， 我们一起思考，我们所渴求的东西是什么？ 大多数人都有过各式各样的体验， 不只是性体验，还有过那些 令你心潮起伏的浪漫经历， 同样，你的这些体验也是微不足道的； 可能所有的体验都很微不足道。 我们开始调查我们都在追求、期盼和 想要得到的东西是什么，它是肤浅的、感官的东西而已…或者说它只不过是 欲望所追求的、显然也一定是相当肤浅的东西，是这样吗？ 在一起思考当中，我们能否 从表面进入到更为深广的领域去调查呢？ 对吧？ 就是说，我们，大家和讲话者，在一起仔细思考， 我们的所有渴求，仅仅是表面的感官需求，还是说， 我们的渴求、思索和渴望远远超出了那一切？ 大家理解我的问题吗？
13:12 How do you enquire into this? When you have put this question, whether your enquiry, your longing is merely superficial, such as wanting more money, better relationship, trying to fulfil, trying to become happy – you know, superficially, on the surface – how do you enquire into that? Through analysis? Analysis is still the same movement of thought – looking back. And analytically, thought examining itself with its accidents its experiences, its examination, will still be limited because thought is limited. That is clear. But that is the only instrument we have, and so we keep on repeating, using the same instrument, knowing that it is limited and knowing that it cannot solve the problem, or have the capacity to enquire very deeply, and yet we keep on doing this. Right? We never realise, I think, that this instrument, however blunt, however used up, cannot solve the problem and therefore put it aside. We don’t seem to be capable of doing that – why? Please, enquire with me. You understand my question? 你如何调查这个问题？ 你提出这个问题时，你的询问、 你的渴求是否只是那种肤浅的，比如：想要更有钱， 想要关系更好，试图得到满足和试图快乐起来， 你知道，肤浅的和表面化的， ——你怎样调查那个问题？ 是通过分析吗？ 分析依然同样是思想的运动，是往回看。 分析性的思想调查它自身以及它的经历、 它的经验，它的调查依然是局限的， 因为思想是局限的。这很清楚。 可是那是我们唯一的工具，于是我们拿着同一件工具， 不断地重复着，尽管我们知道思想是局限的， 它无法解决问题，它也不具备 非常深入地调查的能力，可是我们还是继续使用思想。 对吧？ 我们从未意识到，我想，不管这个工具有多钝， 不管它是多么破烂不堪，无济于事，我们也没有想到应该把它抛开。 我们似乎没有那样去做的能力——为什么？ 请跟我一起调查。 大家理解我的问题吗？
15:28 Thought has created the technological world. Right? Thought has created all the divisions in the world. Thought has created not only national divisions, but religious divisions, ideological divisions, every form of division between two people; however much they may think they love each other, there is still this division, and thought is responsible for that, which is obvious. Would we accept that? That thought in its activity will inevitably – being limited, being the result of the past – must inevitably bring about a division and therefore limited. Thought can never see the whole. Right? 思想制造了这个技术世界。 对吧？ 思想制造了世界上所有的分裂。 思想不只制造了国家分裂，还制造了宗教分裂、 意识形态的分裂，两个人之间各种形式的分裂， 他们以为他们彼此相爱，可是不管爱得多深， 这种分裂依然存在，其原因就在于思想，显然如此。 我们同意这一点吗？——思想在其活动当中，不可避免地… 因为它是局限的，是过去的结果， 它必然会导致分裂，因而它是局限的。 思想永远也无法看到整体。 对吧？
16:42 Now can we ask: is such activity superficial, or can thought with its limitation enquire more deeply? You follow what I am saying? We have understood each other? Can we go on? Please, it is not verbal explanation, it is not that verbally we are clear, but rather together find out for ourselves what is the root of this hunger, great desire to search, to find – you know, this constant movement, out and in. This is obvious, right? 现在我们能否去问：这样的活动是不是肤浅的？ 或者，带有局限的思想能否更为深入地进行调查？ 大家理解我的话吗？ 我们彼此理解了吗？我们继续讲下去好吗？ 请注意，这不是在语言上的解释， 不是我们在言辞上理解清楚，其实是我们一起 替我们自己弄明白，这种渴望，这种思索和追求的 强烈欲望是什么？大家知道这种不停的内外求索的思想运动。 这是显而易见的，对吧？
17:59 Is observation – to observe – the instrument of thought? You follow? Please, go into this a little bit with me. To observe: does that involve the movement of thought? You may observe, then conclude, conceive, create through that observation. The creation, the activity through that observation is the movement of thought. That is what we generally do. I see that colour, one sees that colour, there is the observation of it, then like and dislike, prejudices – all those are the movement of thought. Right? Can one observe without any of the movement of thought? Does that require a kind of discipline? You understand? Discipline, the root of it, is to learn. To learn, not to conform, not to imitate, not to make the mind dull, routine – all that – but to learn. Now can one learn that the activity of observation without the thought creating the image out of that observation and acting according to that image. Right? Can one merely observe? Which is to learn, to observe and to learn or to be aware of the movement of thought interfering with that observation? To learn about it. Which is actual discipline – to learn. I wonder if you have got this. Are we following each other? Are we doing it as we are talking, or you are going to think it over? Please, we are all doing it together, thinking it out together. 观察是思想的工具吗？ 大家明白吗？ 请跟我一起来调查一下。 观察：那里面包含思想的运动吗？ 你也许去观察，然后通过那个观察进行推断、构想和创造。 这种创造… 观察中的这种活动就是思想的运动。 那是我们通常的做法。 我看到了那个颜色，你看到了那个颜色，存在着对它的观察， 然后，喜欢和不喜欢，各种偏见，那些都是思想的运动。 对吧？ 你能否观察，而没有任何思想运动？ 那需要一种训练吗？ 大家明白吗？ 训练(discipline)，它的词根是学习。 学习，不是服从，不是模仿， 不是让头脑变得麻木、一成不变等等，而是去学习。 那么，你能否学习这样一种观察， 即在这种观察中思想不是制造形象， 再根据那个形象去行动。 能吗？你能否只是观察？ 就是学习，观察，并且学习或者觉察 思想运动对于那种观察的干扰？ 去学习这种观察。 这就是真正的训练，——学习。 这一点大家明白了吗？ 我们彼此清楚了吗？ 我们是一边谈一边观察，还是说，你准备思考一下？ 请注意，我们是一起做，一起来仔细地思考。
21:04 So we are saying: when there is observation into, say, our longing, our thirst for something, can you observe without any motive – motive being the past, which may be the desire, the conclusion of thought – without the past interfering with the actual observation? Can you do that? That is to learn. This whole movement: the observation, the interference of thought what the result and the effect of all this movement is, just to observe. One wants to learn. Learning is the accumulation of knowledge, generally. Right? School, college, university or learning about relationship, and so on, learning. Having accumulated knowledge, then act. Right? The purpose of learning is to accumulate knowledge and from that act skilfully, or unskilfully – it depends. Or you act and then learn, which is from action accumulate knowledge. You have understood? You are following all this? So our action is always based on the accumulation of knowledge. Right? Acting and learning from acting, and accumulating. Accumulating knowledge and acting. Right? So our actions are always based upon the past, or the past projecting the future, and acting according to the future. It is the same movement, modified, but it is still the same movement. Right? I wonder if you are following all this. You are doing it, sirs? 那么我们说的是：比如，在观察我们的渴望、我们对于 什么东西的渴望的时候，你能否观察，而不带有任何动机？ 动机是过去，可能是欲望，思想的推断， 你能否不让过去干扰实际的观察？ 你能做到吗？ 那就是学习。 这全部的运动：观察，思想的干扰 以及所有这种运动所产生的结果和影响，只是去观察。 一个人应该学习。 学习，一般来说，就是积累知识。 对吧？ 中小学、专科学校、大学， 或者了解关系，等等，学习。 积累了知识，然后行动。 对吧？ 学习的目的就是积累知识， 并据此采取行动，熟练不熟练则因人而异。 要么就是你先行动，然后学习，即从行动中积累知识。 大家明白了吗？ 这些大家都清楚了吗？ 于是，我们的行动总是建立在知识的积累之上 对吧？ 行动和从行动中学习、积累。 积累知识和行动。 对吧？ 所以，我们的行动总是基于过去， 或者是过去投射出未来，然后根据未来采取行动。 这是相同的运动，虽然经过调整，但依旧是相同的运动。 对吧？ 这一切大家都跟上了吗？ 大家正在这么做吗，先生们？
24:26 Hot! 热！
24:37 We are pointing out something entirely different. You understand? Accumulating knowledge and then acting. Accumulating knowledge and projecting from that knowledge the future and acting from the future. So our actions are invariably the result of the past or the future, that is, action based on time – yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yesterday meeting the present which is today, modifying itself and proceeding. Right? Our action is based on that. So our actions are always incomplete, obviously. Because in that there are regrets, a sense of frustration; they are never complete, – obviously. Right? 我们指出的是一些完全不同的事情。 大家明白吗？ 积累知识，然后行动。 积累知识，从知识当中 投射出未来，并根据未来去行动。 所以，我们的行动总是过去或者未来的结果； 也就是说，是建立在时间，昨天、今天和明天之上的行动。 昨天与现在， 即今天相遇，经过自身的调整，然后继续。 对吧？ 我们的行动建立在那个基础之上。 因此，我们的行动总是不完整的，显然如此。 因为那里面有懊悔 和一种挫败感，它们从来就不是完整的，显然如此。 对吧？
25:46 Now we are pointing out something else, totally different thing, which is, an observation in which the past and the future doesn’t exist. Just to observe. As one observes if he is a good scientist through a microscope observing what is actually going on. Right? When he observes what is actually going on, the thing which he is observing undergoes a change, undergoes a movement. Right? Please, listen to this! Can one observe the longing, the seeking, the urge, the intense energy that is demanding, just to observe that without the movement of the past? You have got it? Are you following all this? It is not terribly intellectual, please. It is merely logical, merely reasonable, and therefore rather sane. Sane, which means healthy. So can one do that? To observe our longing, what it is we want out of life, what it is we are seeking, hunting – most of us are, otherwise you all wouldn’t be here. That is – please, go into it a little more – you read books – philosophy, psychology, doctorate in this and that, or so-called religious books. In those they are always pointing out that there is something beyond – parapsychology, you understand? – more, something more and more, deeper and deeper and deeper. And having read those one says, ‘Perhaps there is, I am going after that’. And then one gets caught by the priests, by the gurus, by the latest fashion, and so on, till you think you have found something which is satisfying – right? – which gives you... You say, ‘I am perfectly happy, I don’t have to seek any more’. Which may perhaps be an illusion. And most people like to live in illusions. 现在，我们指出的是另外的、完全不同的东西。 就是一种观察，其中不存在过去和未来。 就是观察。 像一个优秀的科学家通过显微镜 观察实际情况那样去观察。 对吧？ 当他观察实际情况的时候， 他所观察的事物会经历变化，经历转变。 对吧？请注意听这句话。 你能否观察这个渴望、追求、冲动和为此殚精竭虑、耗费心血， 你能否只是去观察，而不带有过去的运动？ 这个大家明白吗？ 这些大家全都清楚了吗？ 注意，它不是什么高难的智力问题。 它只不过是符合逻辑的、合情合理的，因而也是非常理智的行动。 理智，意味着健康。 那么你能那样去观察吗？ 观察我们所渴求的，我们想从生活中得到的，我们寻找和 追寻的是什么——我们大多都是这样，否则大家不会到这儿来。 也就是说——请再稍微深入调查一下——你阅读书籍，哲学、 心理学，各方面的博士论文，或者所谓的宗教书籍。 在那些书里面他们总是指出，存在着某些超常的东西， 超心理学——大家理解吗 ——那种内容越读越丰富，理论越读越深奥的东西。 读过那些书之后，你说道：“或许有这么回事，我要找到它”。 那么你就会落到牧师、古鲁或者 最新潮的大师等等那些人的手里，直到你以为自己找到了 什么令你满意的东西， ——对吧？ 你说：“我快乐极了，我不用再寻找什么了”。 而这可能是幻觉。 大多数人都喜欢生活在幻觉里。 而你们所有的思索、要求和渴望并没有得到解决，
29:44 And all your search and your demands, your hunger has not solved or brought about a good society – you understand? – a good society, a society that is based on peace, there is no violence, there is no each one trying to fulfil his own ambitions, all the rest of the violence. The purpose of our enquiry into all this is to bring about a good society in which we human beings can live happily without fear, without conflict, without all this striving, struggling, all the brutality and all the rest of it, because that’s the intention of enquiry, because a society is built out of the relationship of people. If our relationship is not correct, precise, actual, then we create a society which is what it is now, which is what is happening in the world. Right? 并没有创造一个美好的社会——大家理解吗——一个美好的社会， 一个建立在和平之上的社会，其中没有任何暴力，不存在那种人人 为了实现自己的野心而咄咄逼人等等一切暴力。 我们调查所有这一切的目的，就是创造一个美好的社会， 让我们人类可以幸福地生活，没有恐惧， 没有冲突，没有这一切努力、斗争， 所有的野蛮、残暴等等，那就是我们调查的目的， 因为社会是由人的关系构成的。 如果我们没有正确的、明确的和真实的关系，那么我们就会创造一个 现在这样的社会，也就是世界正在发生的情况。 对吧？
31:23 So our enquiry into this: which is, why human beings separately – you are seeking something, another is seeking something totally different, each one is asking something different. Right? And therefore there is always this self-centred movement. And the society which we have created is based on these self-centred problems, self-centred ambitions, fulfilment and self-centred discipline which says, ‘I must’, which brings about violence. We are enquiring into all that, which we have, and also we are enquiring into a mind, your mind – mind – you understand? When we use the word ‘mind’, it is not your mind or my mind – mind. Because your mind is like the mind of thousands and millions of people. Right? Striving, struggling, demanding, following, accepting, obeying, idealising, belonging to some religion, sorrow, pain, anxiety – your mind is that, and the other minds are like that. Right? So your mind is not yours. It is the mind. I don’t know if you see this. You may not see this because your vanity, your sense of individual importance may prevent this observation, which is actual. Right? I wonder if you see this. That is why, until we really understand this that we human beings are so similar psychologically, we human beings right throughout the world are so unhappy. They all pray, but prayer doesn’t answer this problem. They are still unhappy, still striving, still despairing. This is the common mind. And so when we are enquiring, we are enquiring into the human being, not me and you. We are human beings. I wonder if you see all this. 那么，我们来调查一下：为什么人类是分裂的， 你追求这个，他追求那个，你们的目标 完全不同，每个人的要求都不一样。 对吧？ 因此总是存在这种自我中心的运动。 我们创造的这个社会的基础就是那些自我中心的 问题、自我中心的野心和满足以及自我中心的 自制力，这种自制力说“我必须如何”，这就导致了暴力。 我们是在调查那一切，那些我们已经调查过了，我们也在对心 进行调查——你的心——心——大家明白吗？ 我们使用“心”这个词， 不是指你的心，或者我的心——心。 因为你的心和千万人、亿万人的心是一样的。 对吧？ 奋斗、斗争、难以满足、跟从、接受、 服从、理想化、入教、悲伤、 痛苦、焦虑，那就是你的心，其他人的心也是如此。 对吧？ 所以你的心并不属于你。 它就是心。 不知大家是否看到了这一点？ 你也许看不到，那是你的虚荣心、你的个人的 重要感可能会妨碍这种对事实的观察。 对吧？ 不知大家是否看到了这个？ 那就是为什么，在我们真正地理解这一点之前， 即我们在心理上如此地相似， 我们全世界的人类如此不幸福。 他们全都去祈祷，然而祈祷并不能解决这个问题。 他们依然不幸福，依然奋力争取，依然感到绝望。 这就是那颗共同的心。 所以，我们调查的时候， 我们是在调查人类，而不是调查你我。 我们是人类。这一切大家都明白了吗？
34:48 And in enquiring into that, can one observe the outward world, the divisions and all the rest of it, the terror, the danger, the politicians with their criminalities – can we observe all that, just to observe, not draw a conclusion? If we observe what is happening out there, and equally observe what is happening inwardly, then our actions are not your action and my action. I don’t know if you follow all this. Because we are then acting together – do you understand? because we have observed the same thing together. 在调查人类的时候，你能否观察外部的世界， 那些分裂以及其它种种现象，恐怖、 危险、政客以及他们的罪行 ——我们能否观察所有那些现象，只观察而不下结论？ 如果我们既观察外部所发生的事情，同样也观察 内心所发生的事情，那么我们的行动就不是你的行动、我的行动了。 这些大家全都清楚了吗？ 因为那时候我们就在一起了——大家明白吗？ 因为我们一起观察到了相同的东西。
36:13 Now we are asking what it is that we are seeking? You understand? If you ask yourself what is it you are seeking, is it money, is it security, is it to be free from fear, so that you can have everlasting pleasure, is it that you are seeking to be free from the burden of sorrow? Not only your burden, but the world’s burden of sorrow. Or are you seeking – apart from all the religious nonsense – or are you seeking something which is timeless, something that thought has not touched at all? You understand? Something essentially original, something that is absolutely incorruptible? So find out for yourself as a human being, like the rest of the other human beings in the world, what is it one is longing, seeking, hungering after. 现在我们问的是，我们在追求什么？ 大家理解吗？ 你要是问你自己，你在追求什么，是钱吗？ 是安全吗？是摆脱恐惧，以便拥有 永远的快乐吗？你追求的是摆脱 悲伤的重负吗？——不仅是你的重负，还有世界的悲伤的重负？ 还是说，你在追求——抛开一切宗教的胡说， 还是说，你在追求某种永恒的事物， 某种思想从未触及的事物？ 大家理解吗？ 某些本质上属于原创、绝不败坏的东西？ 那么，请为你自己弄明白。 作为一个和世界上其他人类一样的人类， 你所渴望、追求和渴求的是什么。
38:21 If one is wanting experience because one has had sensory experiences, sexual experiences, the experiences of various kinds, and one has said, ‘That is enough, I have had all those, but I want some other kind’ – you follow? Some more. Is that what you are seeking? Some experience which will give you great delight, great understanding, an illumination, a transformation. How will you find out? 你想要的如果是体验，因为你已经有过各种感官体验了， 性的体验，各种各样的体验，你说： “得了吧，那些我都经历过了，我想要些别的” ——你跟上了吗？更多的体验。 你是在追求那种体验吗？ 某种会给你带来极大的喜悦、 深刻的理解、一个启示、一种转变的体验？ 你要怎样查明真相？
39:35 First of all, to find out, one must be free of all illusion. Right? Which means terrible honesty, so that your mind doesn’t deceive itself. Right? Not to deceive itself, one must understand the whole nature of desire. Right? Because it is desire that creates illusion: through desire one wants fulfilment, one hopes for something more. So unless you comprehend the whole nature and the structure of desire, it will inevitably create illusion. And we went into the question of desire. So can your mind, having understood the activity of desire, know its relative value and therefore be free to observe? Which means you observe without any kind of illusion. Nationalism is an illusion. Right? Obviously. That is very easy. The illusions that thought has created – right? – is one aware of the illusions? Oh, come on, sirs. And when the mind is free of illusions, and so being absolutely without any hypocrisy, being clear, honest, then we can begin to enquire: enquire into something, asking whether there is a timeless existence – you understand? – a timeless truth. That is, this is where meditation comes into being. Right? You are following all this? 首先，要想查明真相，你必须摆脱所有的幻觉。 对吧？ 这意味着你必须极其诚实，这样你的头脑才不会欺骗它自己。 对吧？ 要想不欺骗它自己，你必须理解欲望的整个本质。 对吧？ 因为正是欲望制造了幻觉， 通过欲望，你想得到满足，希望得到更多。 所以，除非你理解了欲望的整个本质 和结构，它不可避免地会制造出幻觉来。 我们调查过欲望的问题。 那么，你的心，在理解了欲望的活动之后， 能否认识到它的相对价值，从而自由地观察？ 这意味着你的观察是没有任何幻觉的。 国家主义是一种幻觉。 对吧？ 显然如此。 那很容易理解。 思想制造的那些幻觉——对吧？ 你意识到那些幻觉了吗？ 加把劲儿啊，先生们。 要是心摆脱了幻觉， 因而没有半点儿虚伪，要是心是清醒的、诚实的， 那么，我们就能够开始调查：调查一些事情，去问是否 有永恒的存在。大家理解吗？——永恒的真相。 那就是说，冥想是在这种状态中出现的。 对吧？ 这些大家都明白吗？
42:59 Have any of you done meditation? Probably not, or probably have: transcendental meditation, Tibetan meditation, the Hindu meditation, the Buddhist meditation, the Zen meditation. Probably you have played with all those – seriously or flippantly. All those, as far as one can understand, and the speaker has discussed this question with all the scholars, of all the various circuses, and their whole concept is: that thought must be controlled, that one must have discipline, one must subjugate one’s own feeling to something other than ‘what is’, through awareness, through control, through constant alertness – you know all this, don’t you? And repeat certain mantras, slogans: you can repeat ‘amen’ or ‘Coca-Cola’ or what you like – no, don’t laugh, they are all similar. So what we are saying is: meditation has been accepted to be all this. 你们当中有谁做过冥想吗？ 可能没有，也许有人做过 ——超在冥想、西藏冥想、 印度冥想、佛教冥想、禅宗冥想。 可能所有那些冥想你都玩过——认真地或者轻浮地。 所有那些冥想，据我们所知， 这种把戏五花八门，讲话的这个人跟这方面的学者们 讨论过这个问题，他们总的观念就是： 你必须控制思想，你必须得有自制力， 必须通过觉察、通过控制、通过不断地保持警惕， 使自己的感受让位于某种 不同于“现实”的事物，这些大家都了解，对吧？ 反复唱诵某些曼陀罗，口号：你可以反复地念“阿门”或者“可口可乐”， 或者随便什么（笑声）——别笑，它们都差不多。 所以，我们说的是：人们把这一切当成了冥想。
45:04 Now if you want to find out what is meditation, not just accept what somebody says, if you want to find out, certain obvious things are necessary. There must be no authority, because then you depend on that. Right? Obviously. Therefore you are struggling, you are imitating, conforming. And one must understand the nature of control. Who is the controller? You understand? You understand this? I wonder if you understand all this. No? Are you interested in all this? Because it is your life, not my life. This is your everyday life we are talking about – what is involved in it, whether one can be free of all this chaos, confusion and misery. And this is the enquiry, you are enquiring, not me enquiring and you accepting; we are together enquiring, we are together taking the journey. 那么，你要是想弄清楚什么是冥想， 而不是仅仅接受人家的说法， 如果你想要弄清楚，你需要懂得几个显而易见的道理。 一定不能有权威，因为那样的话你就会依赖它。 对吧？显然如此。 那样的话，你就是在努力，你就是在模仿和服从。 你必须要理解控制的本质。 谁是控制者？大家理解吗？ 这一点大家明白吗？ 不知道这些大家都理解吗？ 不理解？ 大家对这一切感兴趣吗？ 因为它是你的生活，不是我的生活。 我们讨论的是你们的日常生活——其中包含着什么， 你能否摆脱这一切混乱、困惑和不幸。 我们调查的是这个，是你们调查，不是我调查，然后你们 接受；我们是一起调查，共同踏上这段旅程。
47:09 So first, as we said, no authority, which means cease to be second-hand. You understand? We are all second-hand people, because second-hand being tradition. We never say, ‘Look, I have put away all that, let me look’. 所以，首先，如我们所说，不要有权威， 也就是不再做二手货。 大家明白吗？ 我们都是二手的人类，因为二手货是一个传统。 我们从来不说：“听着，我把那些都推到一边去了，让我来看吧。”
47:48 The next question is control: from childhood we are trained, educated to control, to suppress, or the other extreme which is what is happening now – do what you like, do your thing! Which is the opposite of the other. So one must understand the whole movement of control. Is there a way of living – please, listen to this – is there a way of living without any form of control? Which doesn’t mean doing what you like, either permissiveness or the other – indulgence. Is there a way of living – please, enquire into this; perhaps, this is something new to you – in which there is not a shadow of control? So to find that out one has to ask: who is the controller? Right? We are enquiring into what is meditation, because perhaps if one can understand the nature of meditation, not the meaning of the word – the meaning of the word is very simple: to ponder, to think over, to enquire and so on, so on – but apart from the word, to find out what is meditation. It may, in this enquiry, resolve, bring about a life which is extraordinarily sane, extraordinarily rational, and may be able to find out something that is nameless, timeless. We are leading to that. 另一个问题是控制：从童年起我们受到的训练和 教育就是控制和抑制，或者走到另一个极端， 也就是现在这种情况——想干什么就干什么，干你的事！ 这就跑到了事情的反面。 所以，你必须理解控制的整体运动。 有没有这样一种生活方式——请听这句话—— 有没有这样一种生活方式，其中没有任何形式的控制？ 这不是指为所欲为， 要么放纵，要么沉溺。 是否存在这样一种生活方式——请调查一下，可能 对你来说，这是个新问题：在生活中能否没有一丝控制的阴影？ 那么，要想弄明白，你就得问：谁是控制者？ 对吧？ 我们是在调查冥想是什么， 因为也许，要是你能够理解冥想的本质， 不是这个词的含义，这个词的含义非常简单 ——琢磨、思考、调查等等、等等 ——而是抛开这个词的含义，去弄清楚冥想是什么。 这种调查或许会带来 一种非常健全、非常理智的生活， 而且或许能够发现某种不可名状的永恒的事物。 我们正在朝这个方向前进。
50:22 So who is the controller who says, ‘I must control my feelings’, or ‘I must allow my feelings to flow’, and so on, who is that entity that says, ‘I must control’? You understand? Control and the controlled. The controller and the thing to be controlled. So there is a division. Who is this controller? Is it not still the movement of thought? Thought has said – please, follow this – thought has said, ‘I have experienced this, I have learned this’, all the rest of it, which is the past, so the past is the controller. Right? And that which is happening now has to be controlled by the controller. Right? You understand? Are you following all this? Or you are just going to sleep? 那么，那个说：“我必须控制我的情绪” 或者“我必须让我的情绪得到宣泄”等等的控制者是谁， 谁是那个说：“我必须控制”的主体？ 大家明白吗？控制和被控制。 控制者与被控制者。 于是就存在分裂。 控制者是谁？ 它不还是思想的运动吗？ 思想说过——请听清楚这句话——思想说过： “这个我经历过了，这个我已经知道了” 以及诸如此类的话，这是过去所发生的事情，所以过去是控制者。 对吧？ 现在正在发生的事情却必须得由控制者来控制。 对吧？ 大家理解吗？ 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 还是你们要睡着了？（笑声）
51:35 Questioner: Following. 提问者：跟上了。

克：实际地调查，先生。
51:39 K: Actually doing it, sir. I am not talking for my benefit. Right? I have talked for 52 years – ‘basta’ for me. I am not interested in talking. But I am interested to find out if you can also discover the same thing, so that your own life will be totally different, transformed, so that you have no problems, no complexities, no strife, longings, all the rest of it. That is the reason the speaker is talking, not for his own gratification, not for his own enjoyment or for his own fulfilment – all that nonsense. 我讲话并不是为了得到什么好处。对吧？ 我讲了五十二年了——对我来说够了。 我对讲话不感兴趣。 可是我对于弄清楚这个感兴趣，就是你能否有同样的发现， 这样你自己的生活会截然不同，会发生根本的转变， 这样你就没有任何问题， 没有任何困扰、冲突和渴望之类的东西。 这个人之所以讲话，是这个原因，而不是为了满足他自己， 给自己找乐子或者拥有成就感——所有那些无聊的想法。
52:35 So the controller is the result of thought, thought based upon knowledge, which is the past. And that thought says, ‘I must control that which is happening now’ – right? The actual. The actual is being, say, for example, envy or jealousy, which you all know. And thought says, ‘I must control’. ‘I must analyse. I must suppress it, or fulfil it’. So there is a division – right? – the division created by thought. Are you following? So in this there is deception. Right? The deception lies in the idea that the controller is different from that which is to be controlled. Both are created by thought. Right? So the controller is the controlled. I wonder if you see this. Right? So if you really understand this, go into this very seriously for yourself, you will see that the controller is unnecessary, only observation is necessary. You understand? When you observe, there is no controller or the controlled, just observing. Observing your envy, say, for example, envy, observe it, without naming it, without denying it or accepting it, just to see, the sensation, this reaction, which arises, which has been called envy, and to look at it without the word. You are following all this? 所以，控制者是思想的产物， 思想是以知识，也就是过去为基础的。 那个思想说道：“我必须控制正在发生的情况”——对吧？ 现实情况。 现实情况，比如大家都了解的嫉妒或者羡慕。 思想说：“我必须控制。” “我必须分析。我必须压制它，或者满足它”。 因而就存在分裂。——对吧？——思想制造的分裂。 你跟上了吗？所以，这里面存在欺骗。 对吧？ 这种观念里存在着欺骗， 即，控制者与被控制的对象是不同的。 二者都是思想的产物。 对吧？ 因此控制者即被控制者。 不知大家是否明白这一点？ 是这样吗？ 那么如果你真的理解这一点， 非常严肃地替你自己去调查，你会看到 控制者是多余的，只有观察才是必要的。 大家理解吗？ 你观察的时候，不存在控制者或者被控制者，只是观察。 观察你的嫉妒，比如，嫉妒， 观察它，不对它命名，不否定也不接受它， 就是看着这种感觉，这种升起的 被称作嫉妒的反应，看着它，不用语言描述。 这些大家都清楚吗？
55:08 Then when there is no word, because the word represents the past – you are following all this? and when you use the word ‘envy’, it strengthens the past. Right? So there is a possibility of living without any sense of control. I am saying this not as a theory but actually. The speaker says what he has done, not what he invents, that there is a life without any sense of control and therefore no sense of conflict, no sense of division. That can only come into being when there is only pure observation. Got it? Do it and you will see. Do it! Test it out. 那么，在没有语言的时候， 因为语言代表了过去——这些大家都理解吗？ ——当你使用“嫉妒”这个词的时候，它就强化了过去。 对吧？ 所以，在生活中没有任何控制的感觉是可能的。 我说的这个不是理论而是实际。 讲话者说的是他做过的事情， 不是他发明的东西，就是存在一种生活，其中没有丝毫控制的感觉， 因而也不会有任何冲突和分裂的感觉。 当只存在纯粹的观察的时候，那样的生活才会出现。 理解了吗？调查一下，你就会明白。 调查一下！检验一下。
56:36 When there is no conflict whatsoever, what takes place in the mind? You understand? Conflict implies movement. Right? Movement is time. Right? Time being from here to there, both physically and psychologically. That is, the movement from the centre to another centre or the movement from the periphery to another – you follow? There is this constant movement in all of us. Now if you observe this movement very carefully, and as you observe, what takes place in the mind? You are following all this? 要是任何冲突都不存在了，这时，心会发生什么情况？ 大家明白吗？ 冲突意味着运动。 对吧？ 运动是时间。 对吧？ 时间是从这里到那里，既有物理上，也有心理上的时间。 就是从一个中心到另一个中心的运动， 或者从一边到另一边的运动——你跟上了吗？ 我们生活中存在着不停的运动。 那么，如果你非常仔细地观察这种运动， 在你观察的时候，心会发生什么情况？ 这些大家都跟上了吗？
57:53 First, you have understood, no authority, the nature of thought, thought being limited, and knowledge which is stored up in the brain as memory, and that memory acting as thought in action. So knowledge is always part of ignorance. Right? We went into that. So what takes place in the mind? You understand? The mind as we have gone into it, is not only the capacity to think clearly, objectively, impersonally, and the things that thought has created, technologically, all the rest of it in the world, and thought has also created all the inward problems. Right? When one observes all this, the mind has the capacity to act not from thought but from pure observation. Do you get this? I wonder if you understand all this! Please, sirs, all this is logical, is nothing sectarian, nothing, Eastern philosophy – none of that. Though the speaker is born in that country called India, he is not an Indian. He has got a passport, that is all. So he is not involved in exotic romantic nonsense, or some strange philosophy. We are only examining what is actually taking place. And to observe what is actually taking place, one must look without the response of the past shaping it. From that pure observation there is action. That is intelligence. And that is also the extraordinary thing called love and compassion. 首先，你已经明白了不能有权威，思想的本质， 思想是局限的，以及知识以记忆的形式储存在 大脑当中，记忆在行动中以思想的形式发挥作用。 所以，知识总是无知的一部分。 对吧？我们调查过那个问题。 那么，心会发生什么情况？ 大家明白吗？ 我们所调查的这颗心不只是清楚地、 客观地、不带有个人感情地进行思考的能力， 思想利用技术创造了这个世界上的一切， 思想还制造了所有内心的问题。 对吧？ 在你观察这一切的时候，心就会具有那种 不是来自思想，而是来自纯粹的观察的行动的能力。 这个大家明白了吗？ 这一切大家都理解了吗？ 注意，先生们，这一切都是符合逻辑的，不是什么教派的、 也不是什么东方的哲学——都不是。 虽然讲话者出生在一个叫作印度的国家， 他并不是印度人。 他有一本护照，仅此而已。 所以，他没有和那种异国情调的、 浪漫的无稽之谈或者某些怪异的哲学搅和到一块儿。 我们只是在调查实际发生的是什么。 要想观察实际正在发生的情况，你就必须在看的时候 不受过去的反应的影响。 行动来自于那种纯粹的观察。 那就是智慧。 那也是被称为爱和慈悲的非凡的事物。
1:00:46 So the mind has this quality of intelligence, and naturally, with that intelligence goes compassion, love. Love is not mere sex – for god’s sake, brush all that. Love is something other than mere sensation, totally unrelated to our demands and fulfilments, and all the rest of it. 心具有了这种智慧的品质，慈悲和爱 便自然而然地和那种智慧一起出现了。 爱不只是性，看在上帝的份上，把那些东西都扫走吧。 爱不仅仅是感觉， 它与我们的 要求、满足之类的东西毫不相干。
1:01:23 So the mind now has this quality, this stability. It is like a rock in the midst of a stream, in the midst of a river, immovable. Everything... You follow? So such a mind, because it has understood relationship with each other – we went into that – relationship is not based on image – you understand? – you have an image about me, and I have an image about her, and our relationship is that: from image to image. You know all this, don’t you? And therefore there is no actual relationship. There may be the relationship of touch, of the senses, but that is not actual deep, profound relationship with another. If there is not that profound relationship, there is conflict, and out of that conflict we create this society which is utterly immoral, violent, murderous. So the mind now has this quality of great stability. And that which is stable is silent. Right? Are you following all this? Have you gone into this? You understand? To be absolutely clear, to have clarity which can then examine any problem. That clarity is stability. You understand? It is only the mind that is confused, contradictory, broken-up, that is unstable, neurotic, seeking, striving, struggling. So we come to a point where the mind is totally clear and therefore completely immovable. You understand? Immovable not in the sense of a mountain, but immovable in the sense that it is so completely… has no problem, no... – you follow? – all that, therefore it is extraordinarily stable and therefore pliable. Right? 于是，心现在具有这种品质，这种稳定性。 它就像是伫立在溪涧、 河流当中的一块岩石一样毫不动摇。 ——大家明白吗？ 于是，这样一颗心，因为它已经理解了彼此之间的关系， 我们调查过那个问题——关系不是建立在形象之上的， 大家理解吗？——你有一个关于我的形象，我有一个关于 她的形象，我们的关系就是那种从形象到形象的关系。 这些大家都明白的，不是吗？ 因此，我们之间没有真实的关系。 也许会有触摸、感觉的关系， 而那不是与另一个人之间的真实的、深厚的、深刻的关系。 没有那种深刻的关系，就会存在冲突， 那种冲突让我们制造了 这个极其不道德的、暴力的、残忍的社会。 那么，现在心具有了这种非常稳定的品质。 而稳定的事物是寂静的。 对吧？ 这些大家都跟上了吗？ 大家对此调查过吗？大家理解吗？ 心完全是清晰的，有了清晰性就可以调查任何问题。 那种清晰就是稳定。 大家明白吗？ 只有困惑、矛盾和支离破碎的心 才是不稳定的、神经质的，才处于追求、冲突和斗争当中。 我们走到了这样一步，心是完全清晰的， 因而毫不动摇。 大家明白吗？ 毫不动摇不是说它像山一样不动，而是说它没有任何问题， 于是它是极其稳定的，因而它也是柔韧的。 对吧？
1:04:52 Now: such a mind is quiet. And you need to have a mind that is absolutely silent – absolutely, not relatively – there is the silence when you go of an evening in the woods, there is great silence, all the birds have gone to bed, the wind, the whisper of the leaves has ended, there is great stillness, there is the outward stillness. And people observe that stillness and say, ‘I must have that stillness’, and therefore depend on the stillness of being alone – you understand? – being in solitude. That is not stillness. And there is the stillness created by thought. Which is, thought says, ‘I must be still, I must be quiet, I mustn’t chatter’, and gradually it produces a stillness. But that is not it, because it is the result of thought operating on noise. Right? So we are talking of a stillness which is not dependent on anything. And it is only that quality of stillness, that absolute silence of the mind that can see that which is eternal, timeless, nameless. This is meditation. Right? Right, sirs. Finished. 现在：这样一颗心是安静的。 而你必须拥有一颗完全寂静的心， 完全的，不是相对的 ——傍晚，你在 林中散步，那儿有着巨大的寂静， 所有的鸟儿都睡觉了，风声、树叶的沙沙声 也停止了，那儿有着巨大的宁静，外部的宁静。 人们观察到那种宁静，说： “我一定要拥有那种宁静”，于是他们依赖那种 独处的宁静——大家理解吗？独居。 那不是宁静。 有一种思想制造的宁静。 即，思想说：“我必须静止，我必须安静， 我一定不能喋喋不休，”于是逐渐地，它会造成一种宁静。 可是，那不是我们所说的宁静，它是思想运作于嘈杂之中的产物。 对吧？ 我们谈的是不依赖任何事物的宁静。 只有那种宁静的品质，心的那种彻底的宁静， 才能够看到不朽、永恒、无以名状的事物。 这就是冥想。 对吧？ 对吧，先生们。 结束了。