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SA80Q1 - 第一次问答会
瑞士，萨能
1980年7月23日



0:08 About, nearly 200 questions have been put. I think to answer them all would take about two months. And I don't think you will be here, nor will I! 大约，有将近200个问题被提上来。 我想，去回答它们全部，需要大约两个月的时间。 而我不认为到时你们还会在这儿，我也不会！
0:38 The word 'question' comes from Latin, 'to seek'. And when one puts a question, one is actually seeking the answer in the question itself. I hope we are understanding that statement. We ask a question and then wait for somebody to answer it. If you were in ancient Greece you went to the Delphic Oracle And if you were in India, you went to some special rather unbalanced guru. If you were here, in the west, you went to the psychologist with your problems, or to the priest to confess. But here we are asking questions and trying to find an answer but the answer is in the question itself. If we know how to put the right question we will find invariably for ourselves the right answer. And it is very difficult to put a right question: It implies that one has thought a great deal about the problem and followed the problem in sequence and see if there is an answer to the problem in the problem itself. I hope this is clear. '问题'这个词来自拉丁语的'寻求'。 所以当一个人提出一个问题时 他实际上是要从问题本身中去寻求答案。 我希望我们都能够理解这个说法。 我们提出一个问题，然后等待别人来回答。 如果你是在古希腊，你会去问德尔斐神谕... 如果你是在印度 你会去参访某些特殊而心理不平衡的大师。 如果你在这里，在西方 你会去见心理学家 带着你的许多问题，或着去向神父忏悔。 但在这里，我们提出问题 并且试图去找出答案 但是答案却隐藏在问题本身里。 如果我们懂得如何正确地把问题提出来 我们就一定能为自己找到正确的答案。 而要提出一个正确的问题，却是非常困难的： 它意味着我们已经对这个问题反复作了大量的思考 并且顺序地依循这个问题 去探讨是否有一个解答这个问题的答案 隐藏在问题本身之中。 我希望这是清楚的。
2:54 Now there are here many questions. We have chosen them carefully, not according to what one likes but according to the seriousness of the question. And in answering, in questioning, which is seeking, we are both of us involved. Bien? It is not you ask a question to the speaker and he answers it and you either accept it or reject it according to one's romantic state or some peculiar idiosyncrasy or according to one's own fanciful imagination or an answer which will be comforting. But I am afraid it will be none of those things. If we could, as we are going to answer several of these questions this morning, please bear in mind that the speaker is not answering the question, that we are together investigating the question, which becomes much more fascinating, much more agreeable and therefore there is no authority. We are together investigating looking into the question itself – together. I hope this is clear: That you are not waiting for an answer from the speaker but since you have put the question either you seek an answer from another or seek an answer in the problem. That is, investigating the problem you find the answer Entendu ? which is much more fun! I am glad we have a nice day at last. And I hope it won't be too hot. 现在我手上有很多问题。 我们仔细地挑选了它们 不是按照我的喜好 而是根据问题本身的严重性。 而在回答之时，在询问之时 也就是在寻求之时，我们双方都要参与。 明白吗？ 不是你向发言者提出一个问题 而他去回答 然后你去接受，或者拒绝 根据你自己的浪漫状态 或某些特殊的癖好 或根据你自己天马行空的想象力 或一个令你舒服的答案。 但我恐怕这将完全不是那些东西。 如果我们可以，因为我们将要回答 在今天早上，这些问题中的几项 请记住 发言者不回答这些问题 我们是一起去调查这些问题 这将会变得更加 迷人，更能令人认同 因此，我们这里没有权威。 我们是一起去调查 去探讨问题本身 - 一块儿。 我希望这一点大家都清楚： 你们不是在等待发言者来给你一个答案 但既然你已经提出了问题 或者你从别人那里寻找答案 或自己在问题中寻求答案。 也就是说，在调查问题之时，你本身找到它的答案 这样做更为有趣！ 我很高兴我们终于有晴朗的一天。 而我希望它不会太炎热。
6:04 Without the operation of desire and will, how does one move in the direction of self knowledge? Is not the very urgency of change a part of the movement of desire? If so, what is the nature of the first step? 如果没有欲望和意志的操作 一个人如何能够朝着自我知识的方向前进？ 变化的紧迫性本身难道不是 欲望的运动的一部分？ 如果是这样，第一步的本质又是什么？
6:30 I hope you don't mind if I read it twice. Without the operation of desire and will how does one move in the direction of self knowledge? Is not the very urgency of change a part of the movement of desire? If so, what is the nature of the first step? 我希望你不会介意我读第二遍。 如果没有欲望和意志的操作 一个人如何能够朝着自我知识的方向前进？ 变化的紧迫性本身难道不是 欲望的运动的一部分？ 如果是这样，第一步的本质又是什么？
7:00 That is, the questioner is asking : Is desire and will necessary or required to understand the depth of self-knowledge? Is not desire itself a movement towards self-knowing? That is the question. 也就是说，提问者是问： 欲望和意志是不是必需或必要的 如果我们要去深度了解自我知识？ 欲望本身难道不是 一个趋向自我认识的运动吗？ 这是此问题。
7:36 First of all, to understand this question not only superficially but also at depth we must understand the nature of desire and will and the structure and the nature of self-knowledge, knowing You understand? First desire, will, and what does it mean if there is no desire, the movement of self-knowledge? If one has not the urge which is part of desire and will how can this flowering take place in knowing oneself? Right? That is the question. 首先，要明白这个问题 不只是表面，而且也具有深度 我们就必须了解欲望和意志的本质 以及自我知识，认识的结构和性质... 你明白吗？ 首先，欲望，意志，到底是指什么呢 如果没有欲望，自我知识的运动是什么？ 如果我们没有冲动 它是欲望和意志的一部分 如何才能在自我认识中开花呢？ 对不对？这是那个问题。
8:39 Oh, it's hot! 哦，很热！
8:47 As we went into the question the other day: what is desire? And what is the relationship of desire to will? Desire is I'll go into it very carefully you have probably heard it ten times but please don't get bored with it, but look at it. How does desire come into being? One can see actually perceptions, visual seeing, contact – touching – sensation. Right? Then thought comes creates an image out of that sensation and desire is born. Right? I'm not an oracle. Delphi has gone long ago. But you can see this for yourself. You can see for yourself when you watch through a window a dress, or a shirt, specially a blue shirt (laughter) And the seeing, entering into the shop, touching it the material, then the sensation Then thought comes along and says 'How nice it would be if I had that shirt' or that dress, creates the image - right? You having the blue shirt and putting it on, or the dress and at that moment desire arises. Is this somewhat clear? No, please, clear to yourself not understanding the explanation. This is the movement of perception, contact, sensation. That is natural, healthy. Then thought creates the image, you sitting in the car and driving it. When thought takes possession of sensation creates the image, then desire is born. Right? And will is the summation of desire, the strengthening of desire, the stability of desire, the urge to achieve, the urge to express one's desire and acquire, which is the operation of desire but strengthened as will. Right? 正如我们那天所探讨的问题：什么是欲望？ 什么是欲望与意志之间的关系？ 欲望是... 我会很小心地探讨它 你可能已经听过十遍 但请不要觉得它无聊，反而要去观看它。 欲望是如何应运而生的？ 我们实际上可以看到觉知，视觉 接触 - 触摸，感觉 - 对不对？ 然后，念头生起 它根据那个感觉创造出一个影象 欲望也就诞生了。 对不对？ 我不是神谕。 德尔斐很久以前也已经不存在了。 但是你可以自己去看清这一点。 当你往橱窗观看时，你可以自己看到 一件衣服，或一件衬衣，特别是蓝色衬衣（笑声） 而观看之后，走进店内，触摸它 那个材料，然后产生感觉... 然后，念头生起而说... '如果我能拥有这件衬衣，该多好啊' 或者那件衣服，产生影像 - 对不对？ 你拥有了那件蓝色衬衣并把它穿在身上，或那件衣服 而在那一刻，欲望产生了。 这有点清楚了吗？ 不，拜托，是你本身清楚 不是明白我的讲解而已。 这是觉知，接触，感觉的运动。 这是自然的，健康的。 然后，念头创造了影像，你坐在车子里 并驾驶着它。 当念头占有那个感觉 创建了影像，欲望就诞生了。 对不对？ 而意志是欲望的总和 欲望的加强 欲望的稳定 想去实现的冲动 想表????达自己的欲望和想去获取的冲动 这就是欲望的运作，但已被加强而成为意志。 对不对？
13:02 So desire and will go together. Right? And the questioner says, asks If there is no desire or will why should one seek self-knowledge? 因此，欲望和意志是一伙的。 对不对？ 而提问者说，问... 如果没有了欲望或意志 我们为何要去寻求自我知识？
13:39 What is self-knowledge? Let's examine that first. What is self knowledge? That is, the ancient Greeks, and the ancient Hindus talked about knowing yourself. It is as old as the hills that Socrates and others in Greece and in India talked about knowing yourself. What does it mean to know yourself? Can you ever know yourself? Please I am exploring together, you are doing this together. What is the self? And what is it you must know about it? You understand my question? What is the self that apparently it is necessary to know it? Now what do we mean by the word 'know'? Sorry to be so careful about this otherwise we shall be misleading each other if we do not understand the words. What do we mean by 'know'? I know Gstaad because I have been there for 22 years. I know you because I have seen you here for twenty years or more. I don't know why, but you are there, and I am here. And when we say 'I know' we mean by that not only recognition but also the remembrance of the face, the name. Right? Which means recognition, remembrance, and association. Or rather association, remembrance, which is, I met you yesterday I have recognised you today, that is the memory operating. So when I say, 'I know', it is the past expressing itself in the present. I hope you are following all this. Does it interest you, all this? So the past is the movement of knowledge. Right? I study, go to college, one goes to school, college, university, acquire a great deal of information. Then I say I am a chemist, or a physicist and so on, so on. So when we say one must know oneself do you come to that knowledge about the self afresh or do you approach it already having knowledge about it? You see the difference? You understand my question? Oh, for goodness sake. Am I making it difficult? No. 什么是自我知识？ 首先让我们来探讨这一点。 什么是自我知识呢？ 也就是说，古希腊人和古印度教徒 都谈到认识自己。 它就像苍山那么老 苏格拉底和其他在希腊和印度的人 都谈到认识自己。 认识自己到底是什么意思？ 你真的能认识自己吗？ 拜托，我在一起探索，你也要一起做。 什么是自我？ 你必须要了解它。 你明白我的问题吗？ 什么是自我，那个我们显然必须认识的自我？ 现在我们所说的'认识'是指什么呢？ 很抱歉对这一点那么吹毛求疵 否则，我们将会误导彼此 如果我们不明白这些字眼的话。 我们所说的'认识'是指什么呢？ 我认识格施塔德 因为我在那里已经有22年。 我认识你，因为我在这里见过你 长达二十年或更久。 我不知道为什么，但你在那里，而我也在这里。 而当我们说'我认识' 我们所指的，不仅是能识别 而且还有那个容貌和名字的记忆。 对不对？ 这意味着识别，回忆，和联想。 或者说联想 回忆，就是说，昨天我遇见你 今天我能识别你，这是记忆的操作。 所以当我说，'我认识' 这是过去在当下展示本身。 我希望你在跟进这一切。 你对它感兴趣吗，这一切？ 所以过去是知识的运动。 对不对？ 我求学，进学院，我去学校 进学院，上大学，获得了大量的信息。 然后我说我是一个化学家，或物理学家，等等，等等。 因此，当我们说一个人必须认识自己时 你是不是毫无成见地去重新认识自我 还是应用对它固有的知识去探讨它？ 你看到那个区别吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 噢，看在上帝的份上。 我把它弄得很困难？不。
18:07 That is, I want to know myself. Do I approach myself through the knowledge I have acquired which is, I have studied psychology, I have been to psychotherapists and I have read a great deal, and I approach the understanding of the self through the knowledge I have acquired? Bene? Or, do I come to it without the previous accumulation, of knowledge about oneself? Right? You understand the question? We have explained what is desire, what is will and when we say, 'I must know about myself' I am already acquainted with myself. And so this acquaintance, this knowledge dictates how I observe myself. Right? This is very important if you want to go into this carefully. So having previous knowledge about myself I use that knowledge to understand myself, which becomes silly - right? It is absurd. Which is, I have understood about myself from the knowledge of others : Freud, Jung, all the rest of it, the modern psychologists and so on. 也就是说，我想认识自我。 我是不是透过已经学到的知识去探讨自我... ..也就是说，我学过心理学 我见过心理治疗师 我也阅读了很多，而我去探讨 去理解自我 透过那些我所掌握的知识去理解它？ 明白吗？ 或者，我去探讨它 完全不用以前所积累的，关于自我的知识？ 对不对？ 你明白这个问题吗？ 我们已经解释了什么是欲望，什么是意志 而当我们说，'我必须认识我自己' 我其实早已熟识自己。 因此，这个熟识，这个知识 会支配我如何去观察自己。 对不对？ 这非常重要，如果你想谨慎地去探讨它。 所以怀着对自己固有的知识 我用这些知识去了解自己 这变得很愚蠢 - 对不对？这是荒谬的。 也就是说，我已经明白了我自己 应用别人的知识 弗洛伊德，荣格，和其他人 现代的心理学家，等等。
20:15 So can I - please listen can I put aside all that knowledge because I am looking at myself through other people's eyes? Therefore can I put all that aside and look at myself afresh, anew? You have understood my question? 所以我能否 - 请聆听 我能否放下所有的知识 因为我在通过别人的眼睛，去观看自己？ 所以，我能否把所有的知识搁置一旁 然后清新地，重新去观看我自己？ 你明白我的问题吗？
20:44 Now, the questioner asks : Is desire, will necessary in observing myself? Right? Now see what happens. I have acquired knowledge about myself through others and the actual fact, what I am. You see the difference? The knowledge I have acquired through study about myself and the fact of myself, what it actually is. Right? So there is a contradiction between 'what is' and 'what I have acquired'. To overcome this contradiction you exercise will. I've got it! You have understood this? How marvellous that is. You have understood that? 现在，提问者问： 在观察自我的过程中，欲望和意志是不是必要的？ 对不对？ 现在，看看会发生什么。 我通过他人所获得关于我的知识 以及真正的事实，我的真相。 你看到那个区别吗？ 通过学习而获得的关于自我的知识 和自我的事实，它实际的真相。 对不对？ 因此，就有了矛盾，在'如是' 与'我所获取的'之间。 为了克服这个矛盾，你应用了意志。 我知道了！ 你懂了吗？ 这是多么的奇妙。 你懂了吗？
22:08 One has studied – I have not, I have not studied any of these things, thank God – one has studied, let us say, the latest psychologist the latest - what do they call them? Psychotherapists. And, went to him, talked with him, discussed and he gives me certain knowledge about me, about myself and I acquire that knowledge, take it home and discover that knowledge is different from me. And then begins the conflict : to adjust 'what is' to 'what I have been told'. Then in that conflict to suppress it, to overcome it, to accept it, desire and will come into being. Bene? Gosh, come on sirs! Is this clear? 你学习过... 我没有，我没有学习过任何这类东西，感谢上帝... 你学习过，譬如说，最新的心理学家 最新的 - 叫什么名字呢？ 心理治疗师。 而我，去会见他，与他交谈，讨论 他给了我一些关于我的知识 关于自我的知识，而我获得这些知识，把它们带回家以后 却发现这些知识与我不同。 然后就开始有了冲突： 要去调整'如是'成为'我被告知的'。 就在那个冲突中，去压制它，去战胜它 去接受它，而欲望与意志也就形成了。 明白吗？天哪，拜托，各位！ 这清楚吗？
23:32 So that is the question. Now we are saying: is will and desire necessary at all? It only comes into being when I have to adjust myself to a pattern to a pattern of the guru, whatever, all that stuff. And then the struggle, the conflict to overcome, to control, all that begins. Right? 所以，这就是那个问题。 现在我们说：意志和欲望是必要的吗？ 它的产生是在 当我必须依照某个模式去调整自己 依照大师的模式，任何模式，诸如此类。 然后斗争，冲突 去克服，去控制，所有那些都开始了。 对不对？
24:14 I am a seeker - you understand? I am a seeker, which is, I am questioning therefore in my questioning I reject all that. I reject completely what others have told me about myself. Will you do it? You won't because... You won't do it because it is much safer to accept authority, then you are secure. Whereas if you reject completely all that authority of everyone, you don't become a follower you don't become a disciple, you are absolutely out of that field, altogether. Then, how do you observe the self? You understand? The movement of the self. The self is not static, it is moving, living, active. Now how do you observe something that is tremendously moving, active – urges, desires, ambitions, greed, romanticism, all that – how do you observe? You follow all this? Which means, can I observe this movement of the self in me: the desires, the fears, you know, all that, can I observe it without any knowledge acquired from others or the previous knowledge which I have had in examining myself? Vous avez compris? You understand what I am saying? I will show you something. 我是一个寻求者 - 你明白吗？ 我是一个寻求者，也就是说，我在质疑 因此，我的质疑否定了这一切。 我全盘否定别人告诉我关于我自己的一切。 你会这样做吗？ 你不会。 因为，你不会这样做，因为 接受权威会安全得多... 那么你就安定了。 然而，如果你去全盘否定所有的 每一个权威，你就不再是一个追随者 你不再是一个弟子，你绝对 完全退出那个场所 那时你怎样去观察自我？ 你明白吗？自我的运动。 自我不是一成不变的，它是移动，活生生，活跃的。 现在你怎么去观察某个 快速地移动，非常活跃的东西 - 冲动，欲望 野心，贪婪，浪漫主义 所有那些 - 你怎么去观察？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 就是说，我能不能去观察这些自我的运动 那个自我：欲望，恐惧，你知道，那一切 我能不能去观察它而不必依赖任何从它处获取的知识 或从前我研究自己所得的知识？ 你明白吗？ 你明白我的意思吗？ 我要向你展示一些东西。
26:38 One of the activities of the self is greed. Right? Or comparison, comparing myself with another. That is the activity of the self. Now when I use the word 'greed' I have already associated that reaction, or that reflex with a memory which I have had of that reaction previously. You understand what I am saying? I am greedy. I use the word 'greed' to identify that sensation. The identification of that is : I have already known it. So I use that word to identify it. Right? So can I look at that reaction without the word and therefore without the previous acquaintance with it? You are following this? Am I making this clear? Can I look at that reaction without a single movement of recognition? The moment that recognition takes place I have already strengthened that reaction because I recognise it and take it back into my memory. You are following? 自我的活动之一是贪婪。 对不对？ 或比较，把自己与另一个人作比较。 这就是自我的活动。 现在，当我引用'贪婪'这个词时 我早已将那个反应，或反射 与我以前所作的反应的记忆联系起来。 你明白我的意思吗？ 我贪婪。 我用'贪婪'这个词来识别那种感觉。 对于那个被识别的感觉，我已经有所认识。 所以我用这个词来识别它。 对不对？ 所以，我能不能静观那个反应，而不用文字去识别它 也就不会把它和以前的反应联系起来？ 你在跟进吗？ 我是否有讲清楚？ 我能不能静观那个反应 而不作半点识别的运动？ 当我作出识别的那一刻 我就加强了那个反应 因为我识别它，并把它带回我的记忆中。 你在跟进吗？
28:41 Now can I observe myself without any direction without any comparison, which is 'I have had this before' - you follow? Just to observe without direction and therefore without motive. That is learning about yourself afresh each time. Not that you have accumulated knowledge about yourself and you know about yourself. If you go very, very seriously into this question, you will find that it is not little by little by little, first step, second step, third step first initiation, second initiation, but to see the truth of this instantly - you understand? To see the truth that the moment recognition takes place you are not knowing yourself at all. Is that clear? That requires a great deal of attention. And most of us are so slack, so lazy, we have got all kinds of ideas that we must be this, we must be that, we must not be this. So we come to it with a tremendous burden. And so we never know ourselves. 现在，我能不能去观察自己，而没有任何方向 没有任何比较，也就是说... '我曾经这样做过' - 你明白吗？ 只是观察，没有方向，因此没有动机。 那是每一次都重新学习认识自己。 不是说你已经积累了关于你自己的知识 而你就会了解自己。 如果你非常非常认真地进入它，去探讨这个问题 你就会发现，它不是一点一滴 第一步，第二步，第三步 第一次启动，第二次启动 而是在当下，马上就看到真相 - 你明白吗？ 如果在作出识别的那一刻才看到真相 你就完全没有真正认识你自己。 清楚了吗？ 这需要极大的专注。 我们大多数人都是如此松弛 如此懒散，我们有太多各式各样的想法 我们必须这样，我们必须那样，我们绝不能这样。 因此，我们给了它沉重的负担。 所以我们从来不曾认识自己。
31:06 That is, to put it differently : as we said the other day, we are the rest of mankind, mankind, whether they live in Asia, here, in America, suffer, go through a great deal of anxiety, uncertainty, sorrow. So we go through it, each one of us. So we are essentially the common humankind psychologically; you may be tall, you may be short, dark I am not talking about that. Psychologically we are like the rest of humanity so we are humanity. And what is there to know about myself? You understand my question? I am all that. That is a fact. 也就是，用不同的说法来说： 正如我们那天所说，我们就是其他的人类 人类不论是生活在亚洲，在这里，在美国 都在受苦，经历大量的焦虑，疑虑，悲伤。 因此，我们经历过它，我们每一个人。 因此，我们在本质上是共同的人类 在心理上；你可能高，可能矮，黑皮肤 我不是在谈论这些。 在心理上，我们却和其他人类一样 所以我们是人类。 那有什么关于自我的东西要我去了解呢？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我就是那一切。 这是事实。
32:37 Then the problem arises : can that content of my consciousness be wiped away? That is the learning about oneself which is not yourself but the consciousness of mankind. I wonder if you are meeting all this? No. You see we are so trained, we are so conditioned to an individuality : "I am psychologically different from another" which is not a fact. So we are so trained, conditioned, we accept it. And so when we say, 'I must know myself' we are saying 'I must know my little cell'. And when you investigate that little cell there is nothing. But the actual truth is, that we are mankind. We are the rest of humanity. And to enquire into this enormous complex human mind is to read the story of yourself. You are history - you understand? Which is, 'Historia'. And there, if you know how to read the book, it is finished. But we come to the book with knowledge. We don't say, 'I know nothing, let's read the book'. Then you learn vastly, not accumulate knowledge. You understand ? So you begin to find out the nature of yourself which is mankind and the nature of this consciousness which is the consciousness of all human beings and enquire into that. 那么，问题出现了： 我的意识的内容能不能被抹除呢？ 那就是认识自己的学习 它不是你自己，而是人类的意识。 我不知道你是否与这一切相应？ 不。 你看，我们都被训练去认同 被调教去习惯独立个体的概念... 也就是在心理上，我与另一个人不同 但这却不是事实。 因此，我们被如此的训练，调教，而我们也接受了它。 所以当我们说，'我必须认识自己' 我们是说，'我必须要认识我的小细胞。' 而当你去调查这个小细胞时，却没有什么可查。 但实际的事实是，我们是人类。 我们是其他的人类。 而如果要去咨询这个极其复杂的人心 就是去阅读自己的故事。 你就是历史 - 你明白吗？ 也就是，'史记'。 在那里，如果你懂得如何去阅读，一切就完结了。 但是，我们却带着知识去阅读这本书。 我们不会说，'我什么都不懂，让我们去读这本书'。 那么你会学习到很多，而不是去积累知识... 你明白我的意思吗？ 所以，你开始发现自己的本质，是人类的本质 而意识的本质 是全人类的意识 然后去深入探讨它。
35:49 So we are saying that the answer to the question is in the question itself. Vous avez compris? You see that? 因此，我们说 问题的答案就处于在问题本身里。 你明白吗？ 你看到了吗？
36:12 Is not a right way of life, a ground of austerity, sensitivity, integrity, necessary before total transformation can take place? 正确的生活方式，难得不就是一种清心寡欲的 敏感的，有气节的 在进行整体转型之前，必要的基础？
36:33 Is not a right way of life, a ground of austerity, sensitivity, integrity, necessary before total transformation can take place? 正确的生活方式，难道不就是一种清心寡欲的 敏感的，有气节的 在进行整体转型之前，必要的基础？
37:00 The questioner says : is not austerity necessary? Sensitivity, integrity – these three. Austerity, sensitivity and integrity necessary before transformation in the consciousness can take place. The word 'austere' means 'ash' the root meaning of that word is 'ash'. You know what ash is? What remains after you have burnt a piece of wood. The ash. See the meaning of it. That is, those who practise austerity – practise – end up in ash. 提问者说，清心寡欲难道不是必要的吗？ 敏感度，气节 - 这三个。 我们必须先要清心寡欲，敏感和有气节 意识的转变才能够进行。 '寡欲'这个词是指灰 这个词的根本意义是灰。 你知道什么是灰吗？ 就是一块木头燃烧后，所剩下的东西。 死灰。 看看它的含义。 也就是说，那些实践清心寡欲生活方式的人 - 实践 最后变成灰烬。
38:32 So let's go into that question. Throughout the world monks have practised austerity. In India a monk who is called sannyasi, sannyasin he renounces the world sex, drink, drugs, he becomes a mendicant, not organised mendicant – you understand this? He becomes a mendicant, he has one meal a day and he can never stay in the same place twice, he has no home. I won't go into the whole nature of sannyasi, the meaning of that word. Let's leave it. That is, a monk, specially in India, who lives on one meal, begging, mendicant and never staying in the same place twice and has abandoned the world, the world being the senses, which is sex and all that. And naturally he goes around from village to village, town to town, and preaches, talks about what it means to live a good life, and so on. Right? And the monks in the western world have it carefully organised. They belong to a monastery with an Abbot, authority. 因此，让我们进入这个问题。 在世界各地，许多僧侣们实行清心寡欲的生活方式。 在印度，所谓的托钵僧，行乞僧 他放弃了红尘 性爱，喝酒，吸毒 他成为一个乞丐 没有组织的乞丐 - 你明白吗？ 他成为一个乞丐，他一天只吃一顿饭 他永远不能逗留在同一个地方两次，他没有家。 我不会去探讨托钵僧的整个本质 这个词的含义是指...我们还是不谈它。 也就是说，一个僧人，特别是在印度 他日食一餐，行乞，化缘 而且从不在同一地点逗留两次 并且舍弃红尘，红尘是指感觉 也就是性快感和所有其他的快感。 理所当然，他绕过一村又一村 一个城镇又一个城镇，到处宣扬 讲解什么是美好的生活，等等。 对不对？ 而在西方世界，僧侣却有他们精密的组织。 他们属于某个寺院，有各自的住持，权威。
41:22 So first of all the expression of this austerity is an outward sign. You understand? Putting on a robe that you have really renounced the world. There are all kinds of phoney sannyasis now, here too. But they are not sannyasis. That is a very, very serious affair. And austerity is not the practising, or the denial, or the acceptance of sex and all that. It is austerity, which is a form of high discipline, according to a pattern laid down by the Abbots and so on, so on, there in India, laid down by the Brahmanas from the ancient of days. There is a pattern set and you conform to that pattern, denying everything in yourself, your desires, your ambitions, your greed and all that. And that is called generally austerity. That is, look what happens : you start with certainty – right? - certainty that you have given up the world, the senses, sex and so on, you start with that. When you start with certainty you end up in uncertainty. I wonder if you understand all this. If I start accepting everything, all the religious edicts, sanctions, and I begin to enquire into them, if I ever do, I end up saying 'My goodness, it's nothing, I don't believe in anything'. You understand? When one starts with certainty you end up in uncertainty, if you are at all intelligent, that is. 因此，首先 这清心寡欲的表现是一种外在的标志。 你明白吗？ 穿上一件长袍 表示你真正的舍弃红尘。 现在也有各种冒牌的托钵僧，这里也有。 他们并不是托钵僧。 这是一个非常，非常严重的事。 而清心寡欲不是去实行或否定 或去接受性爱和其他一切快感。 它是清心寡欲，是一种高纪律的形式 按照一个模式 由住持所订定的模式，等等，等等 在印度，是由婆罗门所订定 自古以来。 有一定的规则模式。 而你必须依照这个模式 去否定你自己的一切 你的欲望，你的野心，你的贪婪和所有一切。 普遍上，这就是所谓的清心寡欲。 也就是说，看看到底发生什么：你肯定地开始... 对不对？ - 肯定你已舍去红尘 快感，性快感，等等。 你从那儿开始。 当你肯定地开始，却最终却变得不确定。 我不知道你是否明白这一切。 如果我开始接受一切 接受所有的宗教法令，制裁 而我开始去探讨它们 如果我有去探讨，我最后会说... '天哪，它什么都没有，我不再相信任何东西。’ 你明白吗？ 当你从肯定开始，你最终会变得不确定 如果你基本上是理智的，对。
44:26 So austerity has quite a different meaning. May I go into it? You are interested in it? Never deny anything but observe very carefully, intensely and that very observation frees the mind from the worldly affairs. That is real austerity. I wonder if you understand this. 因此，清心寡欲有着不同的含义... 我可以进一步阐明吗？你有兴趣听吗？ 永不否定任何东西 但要去仔细地，强烈地观察 而那观察本身 能把心从世俗中解放出来。 这才是真正的清心寡欲。 我不知道你明白这一点吗。
45:15 Look: I observe I am violent. That is part of human structure, human nature, derived from the ancient animals and so on, so on, if you accept evolution. Or if you are one of those who start with creation suddenly then you have your own game. One is violent. The ordinary person who wants to be austere struggles with violence. Right? He won't kill, he won't do this, he won't do that he won't even take part in society, he won't join the army, he is a pacifist and so on. He is constantly denying 'what is' by saying 'I won't' – you follow all this? I say that is not austerity that is only a form of suppression. But when one recognises in oneself violence, that is, violence is anger, hate, envy, comparison, imitation, conformity are all patterns of violence. To observe that in oneself without wanting to go beyond it without wanting to suppress it, without wanting to escape from it. See the fact and remain with the fact. You understand? Remain with it without any movement away from it. That is the depth of austerity. 你看：我观察我的暴力... 这是人类结构，人性的一部分 源自古老的动物，诸如此类 如果你接受进化论。 或者，如果你是那些创造论信徒之一 那么你有你自己的想法。 人人都是暴力的。 一个想要清心寡欲的普通人 处于与暴力的斗争中。 对吗？ 他不会杀人，他不会这样做，他不会那样做 他甚至不会参与社会 他不会去参军，他是一个和平主义者，等等。 他不断否定'如是' 而说'我不' - 你跟进这一切吗？ 我说这不是清心寡欲 这只是一种形式的压制。 但是，当一个人承认自己的暴力时 也就是，暴力是愤怒，仇恨，嫉妒，比较 模仿，顺应都是暴力的各种模式。 去观察自己本身 没有想要去超越它 没有想要去镇压它 没有想要去摆脱它。 看清事实，并与事实同住。 你明白吗？ 与它同住而不作任何远离动作。 这是清心寡欲的深度。
47:51 We are trained to control : control your desires, control your anger, suppress it and give all that energy to Jesus, to Krishna, whatever it is. But we are saying, when you are really... The depth of austerity is not in sacrifice, is not in conformity, in training yourself to accept an ideal but to see completely the nature of this violence. And to see it completely, don't move, thought mustn't interfere. Don't let thought carry away in any direction. Just observe it. And you will see, if you do, real depth of understanding comes and with it intelligence. And when there is that intelligence you don't have to struggle, it is finished. 我们被训练去控制： 控制自己的欲望，控制自己的愤怒，压抑它 并把所有的精力献给耶稣，克里希纳，任何人？ 但是我们要说，当你真的... 清心寡欲的深度不在牺牲 不在顺应 不在训练自己去接受理想 而是要完完整整地去看清暴力的性质。 而要完整地看清它，必须如如不动，念头不得去干涉。 不要让念头朝任何方向游离。 只是观察它。 那么你会看到，如果你做对了 真正深度的认识会浮现，智慧也随之而来。 当有了那个智慧 你就不必斗争，一切就位。
49:29 And the other thing is sensitivity. Most of us are sensitive about our own feelings, our own ambitions, our own struggles. But we are not sensitive to others because we are so concerned about ourselves, our little cell. And when there is tremendous concentration on oneself, what one is doing, how one looks why shouldn't I do this – you follow? – this everlasting concern about oneself, how can you be sensitive about another? Not about - how can you be sensitive? How can a man be sensitive who is ambitious? So physically, one has to be sensitive first. Right? There is no school, or college or university, that is going to teach you how to be sensitive. Right? You go off to India to learn to be sensitive, think of the ridiculousness of it! 另一个事项是敏感度。 我们大多数人都对自己的感情敏感 对自己的野心，对自己的斗争敏感。 不过，我们却不会关注别人 因为我们是这么关心我们自己 我们的小细胞。 当我们的注意力高度集中于自己 自己的工作，自己的模样 自己为何不应该这样做 - 你跟进吗？ 这对自己永恒的关注 你又怎么会对他人产生敏感？ 不是关于 - 你怎么能敏感？ 一个雄心勃勃的人要如何变得敏感？ 所以，身理上，先要变得敏感。 对吗？ 没有学校，或大专或大学 会去教你如何变得敏感。 对不对？ 你到印度去学习敏感 想象其荒谬性！
51:11 So are your nervous reactions, alertness of the mind, are they alive? Or have you drugged them? You understand? Drugged them through belief, drugged them through acceptance of some authority, drugged your physical system as well as psychological structure by constant struggle, battling, battling, battling. I am romantic, I know I am romantic but it pleases me to be romantic which is contrary to seeing clearly, but I like it. So that drugs me, so that I become insensitive – you are following this? 那么，你的神经反应，心的警觉，它们还活跃吗？ 或者你已麻醉了它们？ 你明白吗？ 通过信仰麻醉它们... 通过接受权威来麻醉它们... 麻醉你的物理系统以及心理结构 通过不断的斗争，战斗，战斗，战斗。 我很浪漫，我知道我很浪漫 但我因浪漫而感到快乐 这与看清事实背道而行，但我喜欢它。 因此，麻醉我 让我变得麻木 - 你跟进这些吗？
52:28 Integrity means to be whole – the word 'integral' means whole. Which means no contradiction in oneself. We are examining the question itself, the meaning of the words. That is, austerity, sensitivity and integrity. Which is, never say a thing that you don't mean. And what you mean may be doubtful – you understand? I say something and I think that is what I feel, think, act, but what I think, feel and act may be the result of some conditioning, of some desire, of some motive, therefore it is not integral. I feel like doing something, you know, that is the latest craze I must express myself immediately. What does that mean? That is, there is no depth of understanding of that urge, the meaning of it, the content of it, why it arose but just act because you are, and you think that is having integrity. The word 'integrity' means to be whole. And we human beings are broken up, divided, antagonistic, dualistic and we accept all this and try to be integrated, to have integrity, which is impossible. So one must go into this question : what it is to be whole. 气节意味着完整性 - '完整'这个词是指整体。 这意味着没有内在的矛盾。 我们正在研究问题本身 词语的含义。 也就是说，清心寡欲，敏感度和完整性。 也就是说，绝对不说假话。 也不含糊其辞 - 你明白吗？ 我说了某些话，我觉得这就是我的感觉，思考，行动 但我所想的，感觉的和做的，可能是某些 被调教出来的结果 欲望，意图的结果，因此没有完整性。 我想做某些事情 你知道，那最热潮的事情... 我必须立即表达自己。 这是什么意思呢？ 也就是说，没有渴求理解的深度 它的意义，它的内容，它产生的理由 只是行动，因为你是 而你认为这很有气节。 '气节'这个词是指保持完整。 而我们人类却是破碎的 分裂的，对立的，二元化 而我们接受这一切，却又尝试进行整合 要有气节，这是不可能的。 因此，我们必须去探讨这个问题：如何去保持完整。
55:29 First of all any image that thought creates about being whole is not whole. Right? Because thought in itself is fragmented, limited. Therefore whatever it projects as the whole is not. So then can the mind discover for itself what it means to be whole, integral, have this sense of tremendous integrity? First of all you cannot have this sense of integrity if you follow anybody. Right? If you are a disciple of anybody then you are merely conforming to what somebody has laid down. Then you are merely romantic, playing tricks upon yourself. Which means to have integrity is to have no ideals, no beliefs, no sense of the past and the future. Sir, this is tremendously difficult, you can't play with all this because the past is dictating, is translating what is the present. Right? And the past is modifying itself through the present and going, but it is still the past. How can a mind, your heart, be whole, integral, have absolute integrity if it is living in the past? You people don't... Past experience, past memories, romantic, you know, all that stuff. 首先，任何影像 由念头所创造的，都不可能完整。 对不对？ 由于念头本身是破碎的，有限的。 因此，不管它投射出任何完整的东西，都非完整。 这样一来，心就可以自己去发现 什么是整体，什么是完整 什么是拥有伟大的气节？ 首先，你不可能拥有这种气节 如果你跟随任何人。 对不对？ 如果你是任何人的弟子 那么你只是顺应那个人所奠定的规则而已。 那么，你只是浪漫，跟自己玩把戏而已。 有气节意味着没有理想，没有信仰 没有追忆过去和展望未来。 各位，这是非常困难的 你不能把玩这一切 因为过去在指挥，在编写现在。 对不对？ 而过去通过现在修改自己 延续下去，但它仍然是过去。 你的脑，你的心，如何能够 完整，整体，拥有绝对的气节 如果它是生活在过去？ 你们这些人不能... 过去的经验，过去的回忆，浪漫 你知道，所有那些东西。
58:36 So austerity, sensitivity and integrity are not the first step. The first step is... the first step. You understand? Are you all asleep? 因此清心寡欲，敏感度和完整性 并不是第一步。 第一步是，第一步。 你明白吗？ 你们都睡着了吗？
59:11 If you are going north and think that is the right direction, somebody comes along and tells you 'Look, what you are doing' explains the whole business and you say to him : 'What is the first step?' He says, 'Stop!' Then he says, 'After having stopped turn south'. You understand this? 如果你是北上，并认为那是朝着正确的方向 有人走过来，并告诉您... '你看，你在做什么' 他解释了整个来龙去脉，而你却对他说... '什么是第一步？' 他说：'停止！' 然后他说：'停止后转向南'。 你明白吗？
59:54 Two questions have been answered in nearly an hour. So we will deal one more. Oh my God! I haven't seen these questions, I went through them but I haven't looked again. 两个问题已经回答了近一个小时。 因此，我们将处理另一个。 噢，我的上帝！ 我没有看到过这些问题 我翻阅过它们，但我却还没有重看一次。
1:00:31 There are so many gurus today, both in the East and in the West each one pointing his own way to enlightenment. How is one to know if they are speaking the truth? 现今有这么多的大师，在东部和西部 每位大师都指示自己独特的觉悟之路。 我们要如何去分辨，他们说的是否实话？
1:00:50 There are so many gurus today, both in the East and in the West, each one pointing his own way to enlightenment. How is one to know if they are speaking the truth? (Laughs) 现今有这么多的大师，在东部和西部 每位大师都指示自己独特的觉悟之路。 我们要如何去分辨，他们说的是否实话？ （笑声）
1:01:15 When a guru says he knows, he doesn't. Right? You understand what I am saying? When a guru, or a man in the West or East says, 'I have attained enlightenment'... Enlightenment is not to be achieved. It isn't something that you go step by step by step, climb the ladder. That is the first thing to understand : that enlightenment isn't in the hands of time. You understand? That is, I am ignorant but I will have... If I do these things, I will come to enlightenment whatever that word may mean. Right? Because what is time? Time is necessary to go from here physically to another place. Psychologically is time necessary at all? We have accepted it, it is part of our tradition, training I am this but I will be that. What you will be will never take place because you haven't dissolved, understood 'what is'. The understanding of 'what is' is immediate. You don't have to analyse, go through all the tortures, practice - oh, for God's sake, it all becomes so childish! 当一位大师说他知道，他就不知道。 对不对？ 你明白我的意思吗？ 当一位大师，或一个东方人，或西方人说... '我已经获得觉悟’ 觉悟却不是可实现的。 它不是你去一步一步一步，爬上梯子。 这是首先要明白的： 觉悟不是在时间的手中。 你明白我的意思吗？ 也就是说，我是无知的，但我将会 如果我做这些事情，我会得到觉悟 或任何这个词意味的东西。 对不对？ 因为时间是什么？ 身体要从这里移动到另一个地方去，时间是必要的。 在心理上，时间是必要的吗？ 我们接受了它，它是我们的传统，训练的一部分... 我是这样，但我将会是那样。 你将会是的那样，却永远不会发生 因为你还没有融会，贯通'如是'。 透澈'如是'是立竿见影的。 你不必去分析，去经历所有的折磨 实践 - 哦，老天啊，这一切都变得如此幼稚！
1:03:56 So enlightenment – I don't like to use that word myself because it is loaded with the meaning by all these gurus. They don't know what they are talking about. Not that I know and they don't know, that would be silly on my part, but I see what is involved when they are talking about achieving enlightenment, step by step, practising, so your mind becomes dull, mechanical, stupid. 所以觉悟... 我本身不喜欢用这个词 因为它承载着那些大师的奇想妙解。 他们不知道他们在说什么。 这并不是说我知道而他们不知道... 那将是愚蠢的，就我而言 但我看到是涉及什么 当他们在谈论获得觉悟 一步一步，去实践... 所以，你的头脑变得迟钝，机械化，愚蠢。
1:04:48 So the first thing, sir whether they are eastern gurus or western gurus is to doubt what they are saying, including the speaker – much more so. Because I am very clear about all these matters. It doesn't mean I am the only person which is equally silly but the mind must be free from all the authority, followers, disciples, patterns, you understand? 所以，首先，各位 无论他们是东方还是西方的大师 是去质疑他们所说的话 包括本发言者 尤其是 因为我对所有这些非常明确。 这并不意味着我是唯一的人 这是同样愚蠢的 但我们的心必须摆脱所有的权威 摆脱信徒，弟子，形式，你明白吗？
1:05:45 So how does one know that these gurus are speaking the truth? How do you know the local priests and the bishops and the archbishops and the popes, and all that, how do you know they are speaking the truth? Instead of going off to India (laughs) accepting new gurus, how do you know that they are speaking the truth? Please sir, this is very important. Either they are all engaged in some kind of guile and blood which means money, position, authority, giving you initiations and all the rest of it. And if you question them and say, "What do you mean by that? Why have you put yourself in authority?" You follow? Question them. Doubt everything they say and you will soon find out, they throw you out. 那么，如何能知道这些大师所说的是否实话？ 你怎么知道当地的神父和主教 和大主教和教皇，和所有的... 你怎么知道他们所说的是实话？ 而不是逃去印度（笑声） 去接受新的大师 你怎么知道他们说的是实话？ 拜托，各位，这是非常重要的。 他们可能都是在进行某些诡计和血行 这意味着金钱，地位，权威 给你灌顶, 诸如此类。 如果你问他们说... ‘你这是什么意思？' '你为什么把自己当作权威？' 你跟进吗？ 质疑他们... 怀疑他们所说的一切 你很快就会发现，他们把你扔出去。
1:07:28 It once happened to the speaker that a very famous guru came to see me. I am saying this as a 'en passant'. And he said, "You are the guru of gurus. (Laughter) You live, you are right, what you are speaking is truth, you live it". He prostrated, he touched my... you know, he knelt and all the rest of it. And he said, "I am a guru with lots of followers. I began with one and now I have a thousand and more, both in the West and in the East – specially in the West – and I can't withdraw from them, they are part of me, I am part of them, they have built me and I have built them" – you follow? Listen to it carefully : the disciples build the guru, the guru builds the disciples – "And I can't let them go". And so gradually authority in spiritual world is established. You understand the danger of it? Where there is authority in the field of the mind and the heart there is no love. There is spurious love, there is no sense of that depth of affection, love, care. 这曾经发生在发言者身上 一个非常著名的大师来见我。 我是顺便提一提这件事。 他说，'你是大师们的大师'。 （众笑） '你活着，你是对的' '你所说的是真理，你依它而活’ 他顶礼，他摸我的 你知道，跪拜和其他的动作。 然后他说，'我是一位拥有很多追随者的大师' '开始时只有一位，现在我有一千位 ... 或更多，无论是在西方和东方...' 特别是在西方’ '而我不能脱离他们' '他们是我的一部分，我是他们的一部分 '他们建立了我，我建立了他们' - 你跟进吗？ 听仔细。 弟子打造大师，大师打造弟子。 '而我不能让他们离开。’ 因此逐渐地 精神世界中的权威成立了。 您了解它的危险呢？ 哪里有权威 在脑和心的领域中，就没有爱了。 有的是虚伪的爱 却没有那种感情，爱，和关怀的深度感。
1:09:57 And so to find out who is speaking the truth don't seek truth but question. Because truth isn't something you come by. Truth comes only when the mind is totally, completely free from all this. Because then you have compassion, love, not to your guru, not to your family, not to your ideal or your saviour or your guru - love without any motive and therefore when it acts it acts through intelligence. And truth isn't something you buy from another! 所以，要找出谁是讲真话 不要去追求真理，而是要去质疑。 因为真理不是你去追求而得的。 真理只能 在心完完全全摆脱所有这一切之后生起。 因为那时，你会有慈悲，爱 不是对你的大师，不是对你的家人 不是对你的理想，或你的救星或大师 - 爱 没有任何动机 因此当它运作时，它是通过智慧而运作的。 真理不是你从他处买回来的东西！
1:11:16 Sir, they all say, both the eastern and the western gurus the old saying that you must be a light to yourself. It is a very famous saying in India, old, ancient. And they repeat it : "But you can't be a light unto yourself unless I give it to you". Right? You don't know. You are all so gullible, that is what is wrong with all this. You want something, the young and the old. Young people, the world is too cruel for them, too appalling, what the old generations have made of the world. They have no place in it They are lost so they take to drugs, drinks all kinds of things are going on in the world with the young : communes, sexual orgies, chasing off to India to find somebody who will tell them what to do so that they can trust them. And you go there, young, fresh, not knowing and the gurus give them the feeling that they are being looked after, protected, guided, that is all they want. They can't get it from their parents, from their priest, from their local psychologists and so on because the local priests, the psychologists and the psychotherapists are equally confused. So they go off to this dangerous country, which is India and they are caught in there, by the thousands. And they are seeking: they are seeking comfort, somebody to say, "I am looking after you, I will be responsible for you, do this, do that". And it is a very happy, pleasant state. And also they say you can do what you like, sex, drink, go on with it. 各位，他们都说，东西方的大师们 那句老话，你必须是自己的一盏明灯。 这是印度非常著名的一句话，老旧，远古。 而他们却重复说道... '但你不能施于自己明灯，除非我把它送给你'。 对不对？ 你不知道。 你们都这么容易受骗，这就是这一切的错处。 你想要某些东西，年轻人和老人。 年轻的人 世界对他们来说太残忍了 太可怕了 老一代所成就的世界。 并不属于他们... 他们失落了 所以他们转向毒品 酒精，各种各样的事情在年轻人的世界中发生 公社，性狂欢，被逼出走印度 去寻找能够告诉他们该怎么做的人 使他们可以信任他们。 而你去到那里，年轻，清新，无知 而那些大师们给他们感觉到 他们被照顾 保护，引导，这正是所有他们想要的。 他们不能从他们的父母，牧师那里得到它 从他们本地的心理学家，等等，得到它 因为当地的牧师，心理学家 和心理治疗师也都同样感到困惑。 于是他们去了这个危险的国家，就是印度 而他们被困在那里，数以千计。 他们正在寻找：他们正在寻求安慰 有人说，'我照顾你’ '我会为你负责' '这样做。那样做'。 而它是一个很快乐的，愉快的状态。 同时，他们说你可以随心所欲，性爱，喝酒，你可以继续去做。
1:14:27 And the older generation are equally in the same position, only they put it much more sophisticated. They are both the same, the young and the old. You see this all the time taking place in the world. So nobody can give guidance, light to another : only you yourself. The light cannot be given to you, you have to stand tremendously alone. And that is what is frightening for the old and the young. Because if you belong to anything, follow anybody, you are already entering into corruption. If you understand that very deeply, with tears in your eyes – you understand? then there is no guru, no teacher, no disciple, there is only you as a human being living in this world, the world, the society, which you have created. And if you don't do something in yourself the society is not going to help you. On the contrary society wants you to be what you are. So you understand all this? So don't belong to anything, no institution, no organisation, don't follow anybody, you are not a disciple of anybody but you are a human being living in this terrible world. And there is you as a human being who is the world and the world is you. You have to live there, understand it and go beyond yourself. 而上一代也是处于相同的位置上 只是他们把它复杂化多些。 他们都是一样的，年轻人和老年人。 你时常都看到这一切在世界上发生。 因此，没有人可以给予你指导，明灯 只有你自己。 明灯不能由他人给你 你必须站在庞大的孤独中。 而这就是其可怕之处 对于老人和年轻人。 因为如果你附属于任何东西，跟随任何人 你就已经进入腐败之中。 如果你能非常深刻地理解 眼睛流着泪地理解 - 你明白吗？ 那时就没有大师，没有老师，没有弟子 只有你作为一个人活在这个世界上 这个由你所创建的世界，社会。 如果你不在内心做些什么 社会是不会去帮助你的。 相反，社会要你维持现状。 所以，你明白这一切吗？ 因此，不要归属于任何东西，任何机构 没有组织 不要跟随任何人，你不是任何人的弟子 但你是一个人活在这个可怕的世界里。 而那就是你，作为一个人，你就是世界 世界就是你。 你必须住在其中，了解它而超越自我。
1:17:48 May we go now? Tomorrow we'll meet. 我们可以走了吗？明天我们再见面。