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SA80Q2 - 第二次问答会
瑞士，萨能
1980年7月24日



0:46 Krishnamurti: May I remind you, if I may, that these questions are really put to oneself, not to the speaker, though he will try to answer them, but they are really put to oneself. And, as we have said, the answers to these questions lie in the questions themselves, not outside, beyond the question. And that we are, both of us, you and the speaker, exploring the question, and thereby together find the answer. Not that the speaker will give you the answers, but together we will go into them. And I hope that is clear from the beginning, because if we look to another, we are lost. And I really mean it. Because these are our problems, our daily, tiring, boring, tortuous life, which we have every day, with all the uncertainties and miseries. And if we try to find an answer outside somewhere – in India or here, or present guru, or myself, the speaker himself – then we will create an authority and thereby destroy ourselves. 我要提醒你们，如果我可以 这些问题 其实是向自己本身提问的 不是向发言者提问，虽然他会尽量解答它们 但它们其实是向自己本身提问的。 而且，正如我们曾经说过 这些问题的答案就隐藏在问题本身之中 不在外头，超出问题之外。 而且我们，我们俩，你和发言者 一起探索这些问题，从而共同找出答案。 并非发言者去给你答案 而是我们一起进入探讨它们。 而我希望，大家从开始就清楚这一点 因为如果我们希望依赖他人，我们将会迷失。 而对于这点，我是认真的。 因为这些是我们的问题 我们每日的，疲累，枯燥，曲折的人生 是我们过的每一天 充满不确定性和痛苦... 如果我们试图往外去寻找答案 在印度或这里，或目前的大师，还是我自己，发言者自己 那么我们将创建一个权威 从而毁掉自己。
3:11 1st Question: I work as a teacher, and I am in constant conflict with the system of the school and the pattern of society. Must I give up all work? What is the right way to earn a living? Is there a way of living that does not perpetuate conflict? 我的职业是教师，而我处于不断的冲突中 与学校制度，以及社会模式起冲突。 我必须放弃所有的工作吗？ 什么是正确的谋生方式？ 有没有一种生活方式，它不会滋长冲突？
3:41 I work as a teacher, and I am in constant conflict with the system of the school and the pattern of society. Must I give up all work? What is the right way to earn a living? Is there a way of living that does not perpetuate conflict? 我的职业是教师，而我处于不断的冲突中 与学校制度，以及社会模式起冲突。 我必须放弃所有的工作吗？ 什么是正确的谋生方式？ 有没有一种生活方式，它不会滋长冲突？
4:16 Rather a complex question, and we will go into it step by step, if we may. 一个相当复杂的问题 我们将一步一步来探讨，如果我们可以。
4:27 What is a teacher? Not only in a school, college and university – the master, the pupil, the professor, and so on – what is a teacher? Either a teacher gives information about history, physics, biology, and so on, or he is learning not only with the pupil, with the student, but also learning about himself. This is a whole process of learning, teaching and understanding the whole movement of life. So we are asking: what is a teacher? Is there apart from technological subjects, like physics, chemistry, architecture, and so on? Apart from that, what is a teacher? You understand my question? Is there such a person as a psychological teacher? If I am a teacher, not of biology or physics, but psychologically inform you, then will you understand the teacher, or will my pointing out help you to understand yourself? You follow my question? 什么是教师？ 不仅在学校，学院和大学 老师，学生 教授等等，什么是教师？ 或者教师是在传达历史信息 物理，生物知识等等 或者他不只是与学生一同学习 与同学，但也是在学习认识自己。 这是一个学习，教学的完整过程 和理解生命的整体运动。 所以我们在问：什么是教师？ 除了那些技术必修课，如物理 化工，建筑，等等... 除此之外，什么是教师？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 是否有作为一个心理教师的人吗？ 如果我是一位教师 不是生物或物理教师 而是去传达心理信息给你 那样你会理解这位老师吗 或者我的指示能帮助你了解你自己吗？ 你跟进我的问题吗？
6:49 So we must be very careful and clear what we mean by a teacher. Is there a psychological teacher at all? Or only factual teachers, like a professor of chemistry, science, neurology, and so on. Is there a teacher who will help you to understand yourself? You understand my question? So when the questioner says: I am a teacher. I have to struggle not only with the established system of schools and education, but also my own life is a constant battle with myself. And must I give up all this? And then what shall I do if I give up all that? So he is asking not only what is a right teacher, but also he wants to find out what is right living. Bien? 所以我们必须非常小心和清楚我们所指的教师的意思。 是否有这样的心理老师存在吗？ 或者只有传达事实的老师，就像一个化学教授 科学教授，神经病学教授等。 是否有一位可以帮助你了解自己的老师吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 因此，当提问者说：我是一名教师。 我必须斗争，不仅 要跟公认的学校和教育制度斗争 同时我的生命也是一场和自己不断的战争。 那么我是否必须放弃那一切呢？ 如果我放弃了那一切，下一步我应该怎么做呢？ 因此，他的提问，不仅是正确的老师是什么 而且他也想找出正确的生活是什么。 对吗？
8:21 What do you think is right living? As society exists now, there is no right living. Right? You have to earn a livelihood. You have to earn money, you have a family, you have children, you become responsible for them, and so you accept, if you have been through university, and so on, you become an engineer, professor, an electromagnetic teacher, and so on, so on, so on. As the society exists now, can one have a right living? You understand my question? Or to search out a right living becomes merely a Utopia, a wish for something more? So I am asking myself and you are asking yourself, I hope, what is right living? What is one to do in a society which is corrupt, which has such contradictions in itself, in which there is so much injustice – all that – that is the society in which we live. And I am not only a teacher in a school, or in a college, in university, and I am asking myself: what shall I do? You understand? Are you asking this too, or are you just waiting for the speaker to tell you? What is one to do in a society so deteriorating, degenerating: conflict, wars, violence and terror – what is one to do? What is the right livelihood? 你认为什么是正确的生活？ 在现今的社会里，不存在正确的生活。 对不对？ 你必须谋生... 你必须赚钱，你有一个家庭 你有孩子，你要对他们负责 所以你接受承担，如果你已经通过了大学 等等，你成为一名工程师，教授 电磁学教师，等等，等等。 在现今社会里，你能有正确的生活吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 或者，寻求正确的生活仅仅是一个乌托邦梦想 一个过分的愿望？ 所以我问我自己，而你问你自己 我希望，什么是正确的生活？ 在一个腐败的社会里，我们到底能做些什么 它本身已如此的矛盾 其中有这么多的不公正 所有这一切，就是我们生活于其中的社会。 而我并非仅是一个学校老师，或学院讲师 大学教授，我问自己：我应该怎么办呢？ 你明白吗？ 你是不是也正在问这个 还是你只是在等待发言者告诉你？ 在一个如此恶化的社会里，我们应该做什么呢 退化，冲突，战争 暴力和恐怖，我们应该做些什么？ 什么是正确的谋生之道？
10:55 Or would you ask a question: Is it possible to live in this society, not only having a right livelihood, but also to live without conflict? That is what the questioner also asks. Is that possible? To earn a livelihood righteously and also end all conflict within oneself? Right? Now, are these two separate things: earning a living rightly and not having conflict in oneself, or with society? You understand? Are these two separate, watertight compartments? Are we moving together? Or they go together? If I know how to live, or are aware, or live a life without any conflict, which requires a great deal of understanding of oneself and therefore an enormous sense of intelligence, not the clever intelligence of the intellect, but the capacity to observe, to see objectively what is happening, both outwardly and inwardly, and knowing there is no difference between the outer and the inner. You are following all this? It is like a tide that goes out and comes in. The society which we have created... And can I live in this society without any conflict in myself and at the same time have a right livelihood? You understand? 或者，你会问这个问题： 是否有可能生活在这个社会里 不仅有一个正确的生计 而且还生活得没有冲突？ 这也是提问者所问。 这有可能吗？ 正确地谋生 同时也结束自己所有的冲突？ 对不对？ 现在，这两个是不同的事情吗： 正确地谋生 和不与自己冲突，不与社会冲突？ 你明白吗？ 这两个是分开的，互不通风的密室吗？ 我们共进吗？ 或者，它们是一伙的？ 如果我知道如何正确生活，或拥有觉性 或过着没有任何冲突的生活 这需要对自我有很深的认识 从而发挥浩瀚的智慧 不是知识分子的聪明才智 而是观察的能力 能客观地观察红尘俗事 外在和内在 并且知道那里不存任何差别 于外在和内在之间... 你跟进这一切吗？ 它就像潮起潮落。 我们所创造的社会... 而我能不能生活在这个社会上，内心却没有任何冲突 同时，也拥有正确的谋生之道？ 你明白吗？
13:30 Now, on which shall I lay emphasis? Vous avez compris? Right livelihood, right living. Or find out how to live a life without a single conflict? Now, what would you do when this question is put to you, and you have to answer it? You are following this? What will you do? Which comes first? The bread, or the other? You understand what I am saying? Please, don’t look so... Join me! We are together exploring this problem, not I alone. You are also exploring it. So we must both join together, not let me talk and you listen, agree or disagree, say, ‘It is not practical, it is not this, it is not that’, because it is your problem. So we are asking each other: Is there a way of living which will naturally bring about a right livelihood and at the same time live a constant life without a single shadow of conflict? Is that possible? Is it possible for one to have a life without a single movement of struggle? Do you understand my question? 现在，我应该强调那一点呢？ 你明白吗？ 正确的生计，正确地生活。 或是去找出如何去过一个没有冲突的生活？ 现在，你会怎么做呢 当这个问题被放在你面前 而你必须去回答... 你跟进吗？ 你会做什么呢？ 先做什么？ 面包，还是其他？ 你明白我的意思吗？ 请不要这样子... 跟我一起！ 我们是一起去探讨这个问题，不是我独自一人。 你也是在探索它。 因此，我们必须联合起来 不要让我说，而你听 同意或不同意，说道... '这是不实际的，它不是这个，它不是那个' 因为它是你的问题。 因此，我们互相问道： 有没有一种生活方式 自然而然带来正确的谋生之道 同时过着平稳的日子 完全没有半点冲突的阴影？ 这可能吗？ 我们是否能够拥有一种生活 没有丝毫斗争的运动？ 你明白我的问题吗？
16:06 People have said you cannot live that way except in a monastery or become a religious monk, because then society looks after you. Right? You are following all this? Society looks after you, because you have renounced the world, and all the misery of the world, and you are committed to the service of ‘God’, in quotes. Right? So since you have given your life over to something, or an idea, or a person, or an image, or a symbol, because you are so deeply committed to that, you may ask society to look after you, which is what happens in a monastery – right? Are you following all this? May we go on? 人们曾经说过 你不能如此生活，除非你住在寺院里 或者出家为僧 因为那时社会将照顾你。 对不对？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 社会照顾你 因为你已经出家了 和看破红尘和苦难 而你现在是致力于服务所谓的'上帝'。 对不对？ 所以，既然你已经把你的生命奉献给某物 或一个想法，或是一个人，或偶像，或符号 因为你是如此坚定地投入 你可以要求社会来照顾你 这就是在寺院所发生的事 - 对不对？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 我们可以继续下去吗？
17:34 Now, nobody believes any more in monasteries – thank God. Nobody says, ‘I will surrender myself to something’. Right? If you do surrender yourself, it will be surrendering yourself to the image you have created about another, or the image which you have projected. You understand all this? Now, come on. 现在没有人再相信寺院了 - 谢天谢地。 没有人说，'我会把自己奉献给某某'。 对不对？ 如果你去奉献自己 那将是把自己奉献给 你所创建的关于他人的偶象 或是你的念头所投射的影像。 你明白这一切吗？ 现在，来想一想。
18:16 So what shall we do? Can I, can you live a life without a single shadow of conflict? I say it is possible only when you have understood the significance of living. That is, living is action, living is relationship. Right? Relationship and action. That is life. Therefore one has to ask: what is right action under all circumstances? You are following all this? Please, join me. What is right action? Is there such a thing? Is there a right action which is absolute, not relative? So one has to go into the question of what is action. You are all interested in this? What is action, what do you mean by action, which is living? Right? Talking, acquiring knowledge, a relationship, however intimate with another, and so on, so on. Life is action, movement. And life is also relationship with another, however shallow, however deep, however superficial. So, we have to find, both whether there is a right action and a right relationship – right? – if you want to answer this question deeply. 那么，我们该怎么办？ 我能不能，你能不能过一个没有半点冲突阴影的生活？ 我说这是可能的，只要 当你已经理解了生活的意义。 也就是说，生活是行动，生活是关系。 对不对？ 关系和行动。 这就是生活。 因此，我们必须问：什么是正确的行动 在任何情况下？ 你跟进这一切？请跟我一起。 什么是正确的行动？ 是否有这样的东西？ 是否有一个绝对的正确行动，而不是相对的？ 所以，我们必须探讨什么是行动的问题。 你们都对此感兴趣吗？ 什么是行动，你所指的生活行动是什么意思？ 对不对？ 谈话，获取知识 一个与他人如何亲密的关系，等等，等等。 生命是行动，运动。 而人生也是与他人的关系 如何浅，如何深，如何表面化。 因此，我们必须去寻找，双方 是否有正确的行动，和正确的关系... 对不对？ - 如果你想深入地解答这个问题。
20:51 What is our present relationship with another? Not romantic, imaginative, flowery, and all that superficial thing that disappears in a few minutes, but actually what is our relationship with another? What is your relationship with a particular person, perhaps intimate. It involves sex, it involves a dependence on each other, comforting each other, encouraging each other, possessing each other, and therefore jealousy, antagonism, all the rest of it. And the man or the woman goes off to the office or to some kind of physical work, and there he is ambitious, greedy, competitive, aggressive to succeed, and comes back home, and becomes a tame, friendly, perhaps affectionate husband, wife, and so on. Right? That is the actual daily relationship. Nobody can deny that. And we are asking: is that right relationship? We say no, certainly not, that would be absurd to say that is right relationship. So, we say that but continue in our old way. We say this is wrong, it is absurd to live that way, but we don’t seem to be able to understand what is relationship, but accept the pattern set by society, by us, by ourselves – right? So we are going to find out for ourselves what is right relationship, is there such a thing? We may want it, we may wish it, we may long for it, but longing, wishing doesn’t bring it about. So what one has to do is to go into it, seriously to find out. 什么是我们现在的关系？ 不是那浪漫的，富有想象力，华丽 和所有那些表面的 在几分钟内就消失的东西 但实际上，我们之间的关系到底是什么？ 你与某个人的关系是什么 也许是亲密的... 它涉及到性爱，它涉及双方的依赖 互相安慰 互相鼓励 拥有彼此 因此产生嫉妒，对立，以及其他？ 而男人或女人出去上班 或进行某种的体力工作 在那儿，他雄心勃勃，贪婪，有竞争力 气势汹汹，只想成功，而回到家里 却变成驯服的，友好 或许深情的丈夫，妻子，等等。 对不对？ 这是实际的日常关系。 谁也不能否认这一点。 而我们在问：这是正确的关系吗？ 我们说不是，当然不是 如果说那是正确的关系，根本是荒谬的。 所以我们那样说，却继续着我们的旧方式。 我们说这是错的，这样的生活是荒谬的 但我们似乎没有能力去理解 关系是什么，只能接受那些 由社会，由我们，由我们自己设定的模式 - 对不对？ 因此，我们要为自己去找出来 什么是正确的关系，是否有这样的东西？ 我们可能想要它，我们可能期望它，我们可能渴望它 但渴望，期望，不会把它带来。 所以我们必须做的是，深入它去认真找出来。
24:03 Relationship is generally sensory, sensuous. Begin with that. Then from sensuality there is a companionship, a sense of dependence on each other, which means creating a family which is dependent on each other. And when there is uncertainty in that dependence, the pot boils over. So we are saying, to find out what is right relationship, one has to enquire into the great dependence on each other. Why do we depend on each other? We depend on the postman, the railway, and so on, we are not talking about that. Psychologically, in our relationship with each other, why we are so dependent? Is it that we are desperately lonely? You are following all this? And is it that we don’t trust anybody, even one’s own husband, wife – you follow? So we hope to trust somebody, maybe my wife, my husband, but even that is rather suspicious. And also dependence gives a sense of security, a protection against this vast world of terror. And also we say, ‘I love you’. In that love, there is always the sense of being possessed and to possess. You are following all this? And when there is that situation, then arises all the conflict. Now, that is our present relationship with each other, intimate or otherwise, we create an image about each other and cling to that image. Bene? Are we on the right track? 关系一般上是感觉的，感性的。 从那里开始。 然后，从感性产生伴侣关系 一种互相依赖的感觉 这意味着创建一个家庭，互相依赖对方。 而当在这依赖中产生不确定性时 沸水就溅出锅外了。 因此，我们说 要找出什么是正确的关系 我们必须调查我们之间的高度依赖性。 为什么我们要互相依赖？ 我们依赖邮差，铁路等等 我们现在谈的却不是这些。 心理上我们与对方的关系 我们为什么如此依赖对方。 难道我们这么强烈的寂寞吗？ 你在跟进这一切吗？ 是不是我们不信任任何人 甚至自己的丈夫，妻子 - 你跟进吗？ 所以我们希望能够信任某人，也许是我的妻子，我的丈夫 但即使是那样，还是相当可疑。 而且依赖可以给人一种安全感 面对这广阔的恐怖世界的一种保护。 而且我们说，'我爱你'。 在这爱情中总是有那种意识 被拥有和去拥有的意识... 你跟进这一切吗？ 当有了这种情况 所有的冲突都会产生。 现在，那是我们彼此之间的关系 亲密或不亲密。 我们彼此创建了一个对方的影象，并执着那个影象。 对吗？ 我们是在正确的轨道上吗？
27:43 And so one realises the moment you are tied to another person, tied to an idea, tied to a concept, corruption has begun. That is the thing to realise, and we don’t want to realise that. You understand this? If I am tied to you, an audience, friends, and so on, I am then dependent on you to give me encouragement, to fulfil myself, talking to you, thereby encouraging vanity – all that follows, which is corruption. So can I, can we live together without being tied, without being dependent on each other, psychologically? So unless you find this out, you will always live in conflict because life is relationship. Right? So can we objectively, without any motive, observe the consequences of attachment and let it go immediately? Attachment is not the opposite of detachment. You understand? Please, give your mind to it, let your brain work! I am attached and I struggle to be detached, and therefore I create the opposite. But there is no opposite. There is only what I have, which is attachment. I don’t know if you follow all this. The moment I have created the opposite conflict comes into being. But there is only the fact of attachment, not pursue detachment. Only the fact that I am attached, and I see the whole consequences of that attachment, in which actually there is no love. And can that attachment end? Not pursue detachment. You have understood this? So please, follow this further. The mind has been trained, educated to create the opposite. The brain has been conditioned, educated, trained to observe ‘what is’ and to create its opposite: ‘I am violent, but I must not be violent’, and therefore there is conflict. Right? Do you see this? But when I observe only violence, the nature of it, how it arises, and so on, so on – observe, not analyse, observe – then there is only that and not the other. Right? So you totally eliminate conflict of the opposite. 因此我们意识到，当你被捆绑于他人 捆绑于某个想法，某个概念，腐败就开始了。 这是必须觉悟之事 但我们却不愿意去觉悟它。 你明白吗？ 如果我被捆绑于你 某个听众，朋友，等等 那么我就是依赖你给我鼓励 去履行自己对你的演讲 从而鼓动我的虚荣心 以及随之而来的一切，也就是腐败。 所以我能否，我们能否一起生活而不被束缚 在心理上不互相依赖？ 所以，除非你去找出这一点 你将永远活在冲突中，因为生活就是关系。 对不对？ 因此，我们能不能客观地，毫无动机地 静观执着的后果 然后马上把它放下？ 执着不是脱离的对立。 你明白吗？ 请用心去思考它，让你的大脑工作吧！ 我执着，而我挣扎去脱离它 因此我制造了对立。 但那里没有对立。 那里只有我所有，只有我所执着。 我不知道你是否有跟进这一切。 当我制造了对立的那一刻 冲突就应运而生了。 但是，那里只有执着的事实 没有脱离的追求。 只有我执着的事实 以及我看到执着的全部后果 实际上，在其中没有爱。 而那个执着能不能结束？ 不是去追求脱离。 你懂了吗？ 所以，请继续跟进。 我们的心已经被训练，教育，去制造对立。 大脑已经被调教，教育，培训 去观察'如是'，然后创造它的对立面： '我很暴力，但我不应该暴力' 因此就有了冲突。 对不对？ 你看到了吗？ 但是，当我只是去观察暴力 它的性质，它是如何产生，等等，等等 观察，不去分析，观察 那就只有这个，而没有其他。 对不对？ 所以，你就完全消除了对立面的冲突。
33:01 We are talking about living a life without conflict. We are pointing out how it can be done and should be done, and must, if one wants to live that way. Only deal with ‘what is’ – everything else is not. You understand this? I am angry. Don’t say, ‘I should not be’. Remain, understand the nature of anger, or the nature of greed, and so on, so on. So you eliminate totally the quarrel, the struggle between the opposites. 我们谈论的是关于没有冲突的生活。 我们正在指出，如何才能做得到 以及应该怎么做，必须做，如果我们想要这样的生活。 只是去处理'如是'，其他的都不是。 你明白吗？ 我很生气。 不要说，'我不应该'。 保持它，看清楚生气的本质 或贪婪的本质，等等，等等。 这样，你就完全消除了争吵 对立面之间的斗争。
34:03 And when one lives that way, and it is possible to live that way, so completely remain with ‘what is’, not try to suppress it, go beyond it, escape from it, then ‘what is’ withers away. You experiment with it. You understand what I am saying? Oh, no. 而当我们以这个方式生活 我们的确有可能这样的生活 这样完全保持'如是' 不试图压制它，超越它，摆脱它 那么'如是'就入灭了。 你去实践它。 你明白我的意思吗？ 哦，不。
34:37 Look, sir: my son is dead. My son is dead. I am attached to that son. I have put all my hope in that son. I want to fulfil through the son. And, unfortunately, some accident takes place, he is gone. And I shed tears– loneliness, despair, the shock of it. Then I run away from it. Right? I go to a church, read – escapes. But whereas if I remain completely with the fact that he is gone, and I am lonely because I have depended on him, I have never understood this sense of isolation. I have escaped from it all my life. So when I remain with ‘what is’, then I can go into it fully, completely, and go beyond it. You understand what I am saying? Please, sir, do it! 你看，各位：我的儿子死了。 我的儿子死了。 我执着那个儿子。 我把我所有的希望都放在那个儿子身上。 我想通过儿子去实现它们。 然而不幸的是某个意外发生，他死了。 而我流泪，孤独，绝望，饱受它的冲击。 然后我逃避它。 对不对？ 我上教堂，阅读 - 逃避它。 但是，如果我保持完全接受 他死了的事实 也明白我的寂寞，是因为我一路来都依赖着他... 我从来不曾理解过这种孤独感。 我一世人都在逃避它。 因此，当我保持'如是' 那么我就可以充分地，完整地探讨它，并且超越它。 你明白我的意思吗？ 拜托，各位，去实践！
36:47 As we said the other day, this is a serious talk, serious gathering, not for casual visitors, casual curiosity, casual criticism. But one must criticise, one must doubt, not what the speaker is saying, but begin to doubt all that you are clinging to. And then doubt what the speaker is saying, don’t begin by doubting what the speaker says. What he is saying is pointing out to yourself. 正如我们日前说过 这是一个严肃的交谈，认真的聚会 不适合休闲游客，马虎的好奇心，随意的批评。 但是，我们要批评，我们必须怀疑 不是针对发言者的话 而是开始去怀疑你所执着的一切。 然后才来质疑发言者所说 不要从怀疑发言者的话开始。 他所说的，是给你的指示。
37:39 So when there is the freedom in relationship, which doesn’t mean to do what you like, that is obviously what everybody is doing. If I don’t like the present woman, I change, go off with another woman, and the agony of divorce, and all that business. Whereas if I really understood the nature of relationship, which can only exist when there is no attachment, when there is no image about each other. Then there is real communion with each other. 因此，当我们有了关系上的自由 这并不意味着你可以随心所欲 那显然却是每个人的所作所为。 如果我不喜欢我现在的女人，我换掉她 与另一个女人离去 带来离婚的痛苦和所有勾当。 但如果我真正理解关系的本质 它只能存在于不执着之时 在毫无双方的假象之刻。 那时会有真正的相互交流。
38:31 And also: what is right action? You follow? That is what he says. Life is relationship and action. You can’t escape from these two. What is right action? Which must be right under all circumstances, whether in the western culture or the eastern culture, in the Communist world, there it is more difficult because you daren’t speak, you daren’t act: you act according to the edicts of the dictator and his group. So there is no sense of freedom there. So we are asking: what is right action? To find that out, we must enquire into what is our action now – right? – what is our action based on. Either on an ideal – right? – on a principle, or on certain values. Or ‘I do what I want to do’. Please, enquire into all this. Either it is projected ideals, concepts, experiences, or values. Or, do what you please. The moment you want to do something, do it, which is the latest cry of the psychologists. Don’t have inhibition, do what you want. That is what is actually going on in the world. And is that right action? What does action mean? The doing – right? The doing now. That is action. Is that action based on your past experience? If it is, you are acting according to the past memory of an experience, so the past is dictating your action in the present. Right? I wonder if you follow all this! Are you interested in all this? Dites-moi, I mean, tell me. Are you interested in all this? Do you really want to find out what is right action? You may temporarily, but it demands tremendous enquiry into all this, not accept some authoritarian assertions. 还有：什么是正确的行动？ 你跟进吗？这是他所说的。 生命是关系和行动。 你无法摆脱这两个。 什么是正确的行动？ 它必须在任何情况下都正确 无论是在西方文化或东方文化中 在共产主义世界里 会更加困难，因为你不敢说 不敢妄自行动：你只按章行事 按照独裁者和他的组织的诏令行事... 所以，在那里没有自由感。 所以我们在问：什么是正确的行动？ 要查找出来，我们就必须探究什么是我们的行动。 对不对？ 什么是我们行动的基础... 或是一个理想 - 对不对？ 或一个原则，或某些价值观。 或'我做我想做的事情'。 请去探讨这一切。 它可能是投射出来的理想 观念，经验，或价值... 或者，你随心所欲去做... 当你想做些什么之时，就去做 这是心理学家的最新的呼吁... 不要有抑制，做你想要做的。 这是现今世界上实际发生的事... 而那是正确的行动吗？ 行动又是什么意思？ 做事 - 对不对？ 当下做事。 这就是行动。 这个行动是基于你过去的经验吗？ 如果是，你的行动就是 根据一个过去经验的记忆 因此，过去在支配着你目前的行动。 对不对？我不知道你有跟进这一切吗！ 你对这一切感兴趣吗？ 告诉我，我的意思是，告诉我。 你对这一切感兴趣吗？ 你是否真的想知道什么是正确的行动吗？ 你可能暂时想知道 但它要求高度深入的去探讨这一切 并不是去接受一些权威的断言。
42:31 So we are saying: our actions are based on memories, the past experience, or a projected concept, either according to Marx, or to the Church, or some idealistic, romantic business brought over from India. Which means you are always acting according to the past or the enticing future. Right? This is a fact. And is that action? We have accepted that as action. That is our norm, that is our pattern. Our brain is conditioned, our mind, and so on, and our heart, according to that. We are questioning that. We are doubting that. We are saying that is not action. Action can only be when there is complete freedom from the past and the future. And when we use the word ‘right’, it means precise, accurate, action which is not based on motive. Action which is not directed, committed. The understanding of all this – what is right action, right action, right relationship... The understanding of it brings about intelligence. You understand? Not the intelligence of the intellect, but that profound intelligence which is not yours or mine, and that intelligence will dictate what you will do to earn a livelihood. Vous avez compris? You have understood? Without that intelligence, your livelihood will be dictated by circumstances. When there is that intelligence, you may be a gardener, a cook, or something – it doesn’t matter. You see, now our minds are trained to accept status, position. And when one has understood all that, in the very understanding of all that is intelligence, which will show what is a right livelihood. Right? 所以我们说：我们的行动是基于记忆的 基于过去的经验，或投射的概念 无论是按照马克思，或教会 或某些从印度输入的，理想的，浪漫的勾当。 这意味着你总是按照过去行事 或按照诱人的未来行动。 对不对？ 这是一个事实。 而那是行动吗？ 我们已接受那是行动... 那是我们的准则，那是我们的模式。 我们的大脑被如此调教 我们的思想，等等，以及我们的心，都据此规范。 我们现在质疑它。 我们怀疑它。 我们说，那不是行动。 在自由的情况下，才能有行动的存在 完全不受过去和未来约束。 当我们引用'正确'这个词，它意味着精确 准确，行动不基于任何动机... 行动不受指挥，无所承诺。 对这一切的理解 - 什么是正确的行动 正确的行动，正确的关系... 对它的理解，能带来智慧。 你明白吗？ 不是聪明智力 而是深广的智慧，不属于我和你 而这智慧能决定 你以什么谋生。 你懂吗？ 你明白了吗？ 如果没有智慧，你的生计 将由你的处境决定。 如果有了智慧，你可能是园丁 厨师，或任何职业，都没关系。 现在你已知道，我们的大脑被训练去接受身份，地位... 而当我们明白了这一切 这理解一切的本身，就是智慧 这智慧将阐明什么是正确的生计。 对不对？
46:21 Now, you have heard this for 45 minutes, one question. Will you do something about it? 现在你已经听了45分钟，一个问题... 你会去做些什么吗？
46:34 No. Or carry on with your usual way? That is why it demands a great deal of enquiry, denying every form of experience in that enquiry. So there is a way of living in which there is no conflict, and because there is no conflict there is intelligence, which will show the way of right living. I hope they are having fun! 不。 或者继续你往常的作业？ 这就是为什么它需要大量的探讨 在探讨的过程中，否定每种形式的经验。 因此，有一种生活方式，其中没有冲突 因为没有冲突，所以有智慧 智慧将显示正确的生活方式。 （飞机声） 我希望他们玩得开心！ （众笑）
47:56 2nd Question: Is it possible to be so completely awake at the moment of perception that the mind does not record the event? 是否有可能如此完全清醒 在知觉运作的时刻 心不去记录事件？
48:10 Is it possible to be so completely awake at the moment of perception that the mind does not record the event? 是否有可能如此完全清醒 在知觉运作的时刻 心不去记录事件？
48:26 You have understood the question? Right? No? Do you want me to read it again? Is it possible to be so completely awake at the moment of perception that the mind does not record the event? 你已理解这个问题了？对吗？ 没有？ 你要我重读一遍吗？ 是否有可能如此完全清醒 在知觉运作的时刻 心不去记录事件？
48:56 Our brain – now we are enquiring into the question. In the question is the answer. We are going to show it. We are going to enquire into it, the question. He says, is it possible not to record at all – your hurts, one’s failures, despairs, anxiety, experience – you follow? All the things that are going on inside and outside, not to record it, so the mind is always free. That is the question. 我们的大脑 - 现在我们正在研究这个问题... 在问题中就有答案。 我们将去显示它... 我们将去探讨它，这个问题。 他说，有没有可能完全不去记录 你的伤痛，你的失败 绝望，焦虑，经验 - 你跟进吗？ 所有发生的事情，内在和外在的 都不去记录，那么心永远都自由自在。 就是这个问题。
49:46 Now, let’s start examining it. Which is, the brain, evolving in time, its process is to record. Someone says to me, ‘You are an idiot’. That has been said to me often, politely and impolitely. And the brain instantly records it. You have accused me of being an idiot. I don’t like it because I have an image about myself that I am not an idiot, and when you call me an idiot, I am hurt. That is recording. The hurt exists as long as I have an image about myself. And everybody will tread on that image. Right? And there is hurt, I have recorded it. The mind, the brain has recorded it. And the recording is to build a wall round myself. Not to be hurt any more. I am afraid, so I shrink within myself, build a wall of resistance, and I feel safe. Now, the questioner asks: Is it possible not to record that hurt as... at the moment when I am called an idiot? You understand? Not to record that incident, the verbal usage, the insult, the implications and the image which I have about myself. Is it possible not to record at all, not only the hurt but the flattery, and I have had plenty of that too. You understand? One has had both. So is it possible not to record either? Right? And the brain has been trained to record, because then, in that recording, there is safety, there is security, there is strength, a vitality. And therefore, in that recording, the mind creates the image about oneself. Right? And that image will constantly get hurt. So is it possible to live without a single image? Go into it, sir. Don’t, please, go to sleep. Single image about yourself, about your husband, wife, children, friend, and so on, about the politicians, about the priests, about the ideals – not a single shadow of an image? We are saying it is possible, must be, otherwise you will always be getting hurt, always living in a pattern. In that, there is no freedom. And when you call me an idiot, to be so attentive at that moment. Right? When you give complete attention, there is no recording. It is only when there is not attention, inattention, you record. I wonder if you capture this. Is it getting too difficult? Too abstract? 现在，让我们开始去研究它。 那就是，大脑 在时间里进化，其过程是去记录。 有人对我说，'你是傻瓜'。 一直这样说我 有礼貌和不礼貌地说。 而大脑即刻记录了它。 你指责我是傻瓜。 我不喜欢它，因为我有对自己的形象 我不是一个傻瓜 而当你叫我傻瓜时，我受伤了。 这是记录。 这个伤害会一直存在，只要我有着自我的形象。 而每个人都来践踏这个形象。 对不对？ 因而有受伤，我已经把它记录下来。 我的心，我的脑已经记录了它。 这个记录是为了建立一道围墙，环绕我自己... 不再受到伤害。 我很害怕，所以在我内心，我缩小自己 建立抵抗墙，而感到安全。 现在，提问者问道： 是否有可能不去记录那些伤害 在我被叫作傻瓜的那一刻？ 你明白吗？ 不去记录该事件 那些口头用语，那些侮辱 那些暗示和我对自我的形象。 是否有可能完全不去记录 不仅是那些伤害，也包括奉承 而这些，我也曾经有过很多。 你明白吗？我们两样都有。 那么，有没有可能两者都不去记录？ 对不对？ 而大脑已经被训练去记录 因为在那个记录之时，会有安全 有保安，有力量，有活力... 因此，在那记录之中 我们的心创造了对自我的形象。 对不对？ 而这个形象将不断受到伤害。 那么，有没有可能活着却完全没有任何形象？ 去探讨它，各位。 请不要睡着。 一个关于自己的形象，关于你的丈夫，妻子 孩子，朋友等等，关于政治家 关于传教士，关于理想 毫无半点形象的阴影？ 我们说这是有可能的 一定，否则你将永远受到伤害 总是生活在一种模式中。 其中没有任何自由。 而当你叫我傻瓜时 在那一刻，要非常的专注。 对不对？ 当你投入完全的专注时，就没有记录。 只有当你不专注时，不关注时，你才会记录。 我不知道你是否捕获这一点。 是否太困难理解了？ 过于抽象了？
55:32 That is, you flatter me. I like it. The liking at that moment is inattention. In that moment, there is no attention. Therefore recording takes place. But when you flatter me, instead of calling me an idiot, now, you have gone to the other extreme – flatter me – to listen to it so completely, without any reaction. Then there is no centre which records. That is, we have to go into the question of what is attention. Oh lord! 也就是说，你奉承我。 我喜欢。 那一刻的喜欢就是不专注。 在那一刻，没有专注。 因此记录发生了。 但是，当你奉承我，而不是叫我傻瓜 现在你去了另一个极端，奉承我啦 非常完整地聆听它，不作任何反应... 那就没有任何中枢去作记录。 也就是说，我们必须进入什么是专注的问题。 天啊！
56:46 Most of us know what is concentration: from one point to another point. Right? From one desire, one hope to another. I concentrate about my job, concentrate in order to control my mind, concentrate in order to achieve a certain result. In that concentration, there must be conflict: because you are concentrating, thoughts come pouring in, and so you try to push them off. You know all this, don’t you? And this is this constant struggle to concentrate, and the thought going off. Whereas attention is: there is no point from which you are attending. I wonder if you see that? Do you follow all this? I do not know – I’m sorry! 我们大多数人都知道什么是集中注意力 从一个点到另一个点。 对不对？ 从一个欲望，一个希望到另一个。 对于我的工作，我会很集中 为了控制大脑而集中 为了达到某个成果而集中。 在这集中的运作里，必然有冲突 因为当你集中注意力时，念头会不断涌现出来 所以你努力把它们赶走... 你知道这一切，不是吗？ 而这就是那不断的奋斗 去集中和念头的消灭。 然而，专注却是： 没有起点去开始专注。 我不知道你理解了吗？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 我不知道...很抱歉！
58:26 One wonders if you have ever given attention to anything. Are you now attending to what is being said? That is, attending, giving your attention which means there is no other thought, no other movement, no interpretation, no motive, just listening so completely. So there is a difference between concentration, which is from point to point, and therefore resistance, whereas attention – there is no centre from which you’re attending, and therefore that attention is all-inclusive, there is no border to it. Vous avez compris? Just, not what the speaker is saying, just see the truth of it. That concentration inevitably brings about resistance: shut yourself up, avoid noises, avoid interruptions, and so on, so on, your whole brain is centred on a point, the point may be excellent, and so on. So what is taking place there? There is division – the controller and the controlled. Right? The controller is the thought which says, ‘I have understood, I must control that’. I wonder if you see that. The controller is the controlled. Let me put it differently. The thinker is the thought. There is no separation from thought and the thinker. Do you see this, sirs? Right? So you eliminate altogether the division when one realises the thinker is the thought. In concentration, the controller is the controlled. When one actually sees the truth of it, then there comes attention in which there may be concentration. I may have to concentrate on doing something, but it comes from attention. Have you understood? In Italian, I’m sorry. I better translate this. I don’t have to read it in Italian. I’ll translate it. 我想知道，你是否曾经专注过任何东西。 你现在是不是专注着我所说的话？ 也就是说，专注，给于你的关注 这意味着没有别的念头，没有别的动作 没有诠释，没有动机，只是听得如此彻底。 因此，两者之间有着差别 集中是从一点到另一点，因此有抗拒 而专注，没有开始去专注的起点 因此，专注是全包的 它没有任何边界。 你明白吗？ 只是，而不是发言者所说的，只是去看清它的真相。 集中不可避免地带来了抗拒： 把自己封闭，避免噪音，避免干扰 等等，等等，你的整个大脑集中在一个点上 这一点可能非常棒，等等。 因此，什么发生了呢？ 分割发生了 - 控制者和所控制。 对不对？ 这个控制者是个念头，它说... '我明白了，我必须控制它'。 我不知道你是否明白。 这个控制者就是所控制。 让我用不同的说法来解释。 思考者是念头。 思考者和念头之间没有分割... 你明白这个吗，各位？ 对不对？ 所以，你将完全消除那个分割 当你意识到思考者就是念头时。 在集中运作里，控制者就是所控制。 当我们真正看到这个真相 那就会产生关注 在其中可能会有注意力的集中... 我可能要集中精力去做某事 但它来自专注。 你明白吗？ （意大利语） 用意大利语写的，我很抱歉。我最好翻译它。 我不必用意大利语来念。我会翻译它。
1:02:47 3rd Question: In your talks, you speak of death as a total annihilation of our total existence, but you are firm also... 在你的演讲中，你说死亡是整体的断灭 我们整个存在的断灭，但你也很肯定... （意大利语）
1:03:30 I’ll put the question – right, sir? – may I? It’s written down by our friend, Italian, and he is asking this question. 我将提出这个问题 - 对不对，各位？ 我可以吗？ 这是我们的朋友写的 意大利语，而他问这个问题。
1:03:40 In your talks, you have said that there is total annihilation, and also – that is, after death. And also you have said there is immortality, eternity. And what is that state of eternity, timeless existence? Can one exist in that? 在你的演说中，你说过 有整体的断灭，还有 也就是说，死后... 你也说过，有不朽，永恒... 而什么是永恒的状态，隽永的生存？ 我们能存在其中吗？
1:04:14 Have you understood the question? Is it clear? I’ll repeat it. The questioner asks, in your talks you have said death is total annihilation. And also you have said there is immortality, a state of timeless existence. Can one live in that state? 你明白这个问题吗？ 清楚吗？ 我将再说一遍。 提问者问，在你的演说中，你说过 死亡是整体的断灭... 而你也说过，有不朽 一个隽永存在的状态。 我们能否活在这个状态中。
1:04:49 That is the question. First of all, I said – please, listen – I did not use the word ‘annihilation’. I have said death is an ending – right? Like ending attachment. When you end something, like attachment, something totally new begins. Right? This is obvious. When I have been accustomed to anger all my life, or greed, aggression, I end it. There is something totally new happens – right? – if you have done it. I have followed my guru with all the gadgets he has given me, and I realise the absurdity of it, I end it. See what happens. There is a sense of freedom. The burden which I have been carrying uselessly. I said death is like ending an attachment. 这是那个问题。 首先我说 - 请聆听 我没有用'断灭'这个词。 我说过死亡是一种结束- 对不对？ 就像结束执着。 当你结束某样东西，如执着 某个全新的东西就会开始。 对不对？ 这是显而易见的。 在我一生中，当我已经习惯了愤怒 或贪婪，侵略，我结束了它... 就会有某个全新的事物发生... 对吗？ - 如果你曾经做过。 我曾经跟随我的大师 连带全部他给我的小道具 而我觉悟它的荒谬处，我结束了它。 看看什么发生。 我有了一种自由的感觉。 我一直以来都背着无益的负担。 我说：死亡就像结束一个执着。
1:06:48 And also we said: What is it that has continued through life? You understand my question? We put death in opposition to living. Right? Is it so? We have put it. We say death is at the end. That end may be 10 years or 50 years, or the day after tomorrow. I hope it will be ten years for you, but this is our illusion, this is our desire, and this is our momentum. It is like asking how to face death. You follow what I am saying? I say you cannot understand that, how to face death, without understanding or facing living. Death is not the opposite of living. I wonder if you understand all this. Shall we go into this? Do you want me to go into all this? You aren’t tired? I am surprised! 同时我们说： 究竟是什么一直在生命中持续着？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们把死亡与生活对立。 对吗？ 是这样呢？ 我们已经这样说。 我们说，死亡处在尽头... 那个尽头，可能是在10年或50年后，或者是后天。 我希望对于你是十年之后，但是这只是我们的错觉 这是我们的欲望，也是我们的推动力。 这就好像询问如何面去对死亡。 你跟进我所说吗？ 我说你将不可能明白，如何去面对死亡 如果你不理解如何面对生活。 死亡不是生活的对立面。 我不知道你是否明白这一切。 我们要去探讨它吗？ 你想要我去探讨这一切吗？ 你不累吗？ 我很惊讶！ （众笑）
1:08:37 I think a much more important question is not how to face death, what is immortality, whether that immortality is a state in which one can live. What is much more important is how to face life. How to understand this terrible thing called living. If we don’t understand that, not verbally, not intellectually, but living it, finding out what it means to live, because to us living as we are is meaningless. Whether you are a disciple with all the jewels, and all the rest of it, it has no meaning! Going to the office from day to day for the next 50 years, slaving away, going to church – you know, all these things, what is the meaning of all this? You may give meaning to life, as people do, say life is this, life must be that. But without all this romantic, illusory, idealistic nonsense, life is this – our daily sorrow, competition, despair, depression, agony, with shadows of occasional flash of beauty, love. That is our life. Can we face that, understand it so completely that we have no conflict in life? That is, to die to everything that thought has built. I wonder if you understand this. Thought has built my vanity. Thought has said, ‘You must be this’. Thought has said, ‘You are much cleverer than the other’. Thought has said, ‘Achieve, become somebody, struggle, compete’ – like the Olympics. That is what thought has put together, which is: my existence, your existence. Our gods, our churches, our gurus, our rituals, our changing names into Indian names – all that is the activity of thought. And thought, as we said, is a movement of memory, experience, knowledge. Which is, experience brings certain knowledge stored up in the brain as memory, and responding that memory is the movement of thought. This is so, if you observe it. So thought is a material process. Right? So thought has made this, my life is that, I am different from you, I must achieve – you follow? 我觉得一个更重要的问题 并不是如何去面对死亡，什么是不朽 无论那个不朽的状态，是不是我们可以生活的一种状态。 更重要的是我们要如何去面对生活... 如何去理解这个叫做生活的可怕东西。 如果我们不理解它，不是在口头上 不是在智性上，而是在实践上，去找出 生活是什么意思 因为对于我们，如我们一样的生活，是没有意义的。 无论你是一个拥有所有珠宝的弟子 和所有其他人，都没有任何意义！ 在未来50年，一天接一天去办公 劳劳碌碌，上教堂，你知道 所有这些事情，这一切又有什么意义？ 你可以给生命某种意义 正如人们所作，说生活是这样，生活必须是那样。 但是，排除了这一切浪漫的，虚幻的，理想的废话 生活就是这些，我们每日的悲伤，竞争，绝望 抑郁，痛苦 以及偶尔闪过的，爱与美的影子。 这就是我们的生活。 我们能不能面对它 全面去理解它 以便我们的生活中没有冲突？ 也就是说，让自己在念头所建立的那一切中死亡。 我不知道你是否明白这一点。 念头建立了我的虚荣心。 念头说，'你必须这样'。 念头说，'你比其他人聪明得多'。 念头说，'获取成就，成为名人 斗争，竞争，' - 比如奥运会。 这就是念头所建立的 也就是我的存在，你的存在。 我们的神，我们的教会，我们的大师，我们的礼仪 我们改为印度名的名字 一切都是念头的活动。 而念头，正如我们所说 是记忆的运动，经验，知识的运动。 也就是，经验带来一定的知识 储存在大脑中成为记忆，和反应 那些记忆是念头的运动。 这是如此，如果你去观察它。 因此，念头是物质的过程。 对不对？ 因此，念头制造了这些，我的生活就是... 我与你不同，我必须取得成就 - 你跟进吗？
1:13:18 And when thought predominates our life, as it does, then thought denies love. Right? Love is not a remembrance. Love is not an experience. Love is not desire or pleasure. No, you will agree with this but... So that is our life. And living that way, we have separated the thing called death, which is an ending, and we are frightened of that. If and when we deny everything in oneself that thought has created, end it. Do you understand what I am saying? This requires tremendous grit, not all the nonsensical romance. Your attachments, your hopes, your vanities, your sense of importance – all that is to become. When that becoming completely ends, what have you? You are with death, aren’t you? So living is dying, and so renewal. Oh, you don’t understand all this. Do it and you will find out. But we are trained to be individuals – me and you, my ego and your ego. Is that a fact? Or we are the entire humanity because we go through what every human being goes through: sexual appetites, indulgence, sorrow, great hope, fear, anxiety, and the immense sense of loneliness – that is what each one of us has, that is our life. So we are the entire humanity, we are not individuals. We like to think we are, we are not. You may be clever at writing a book, but that doesn’t make you an individual. You have a gift, but when you have a gift to write or sing or dance, whatever it is, that gift is translated as ‘my gift’. And when you accept that as your gift, vanity, you know, all the circus round it begins. 而当念头主导我们的生活时 它正是如此，那么念头就否定了爱。 对不对？ 爱不是一个记忆。 爱不是一种体验。 爱不是欲望或乐趣。 不，但你必须同意这一点... 因此，那就是我们的生活。 而以那种方式过活 我们也就分离了那个被称为死亡的东西，它是一个结束 而我们对它感到害怕。 如果当 我们去否定由念头所创造的自己的一切，就能结束它... 你明白我的意思吗？ 这需要极大的勇气 不是所有那些荒谬的浪漫。 你的执着，你的希望，你的虚荣 你珍贵的感觉，所有这些都是有为的造作。 当这些造作完全结束后，你还有什么呢？ 你跟死亡在一起，不是吗？ 因此，生活是死去，然后更新。 噢，你不明白这一切。 去实践，你就会找到答案。 但是，我们都被培训成个人 我和你，我的自我和你的自我。 这是实相吗？ 或者我们是整个人类 因为我们都经历每个人类所经历的： 性欲，放纵，悲伤，大希望，恐惧 焦虑，强烈的孤独感 这就是我们每个人所拥有，这是我们的生命。 因此，我们是整个人类，我们不是个人。 我们喜欢认为我们是，但我们不是。 你可能很会写书 但是，这并不会让你变为一个个人。 你有天分 但是如果你有天分去写作，或唱歌，或跳舞 不管是什么，这天分被翻译成'我的天分'。 而当你接受那为你的天分，虚荣 你知道，所有围绕它的马戏就开始了。
1:17:34 So there is a life in which there is no centre as me, and therefore life is walking hand and hand with death, and therefore out of that sense of ending totally time has come to an end. Naturally, because time is movement, movement means thought, thought is time. And when you say, ‘Do I live in that eternity?’, then you don’t understand. You see what we have done? ‘I want to live in eternity’, ‘I want to understand immortality’, which means I must be part of that. But what are you? A name, a form, and all the things that thought has put together. That is what we actually are. And we cling to that. And death comes through disease, accident, old age – how scared we are. And there is always the priest round the corner telling you you will go to heaven. Or if you don’t do what he tells you, you go to hell. It is not only the priest round the corner, but the guru round the corner. They are all the same. 因此，有一种没有中枢的生活，就像我一样 因此生活与死亡是携手同行 因此在这个整体结束的意义上 时间已经走到了尽头。 当然，因为时间是运动 运动意味着念头，念头是时间。 而当你说：'我在那永恒中生活吗？' 那你就是不明白。 你看我们到底做了什么？ '我想活在永恒中' '我想了解不朽’ 这意味着我必然是其中的一部分。 但你是什么？ 一个名字，一个形式，以及所有念头所堆砌的东西。 那就是实际上的我们。 而我们却执着它。 然后死亡来临 通过疾病，意外，年老 - 我们是多么害怕。 而且总是会有牧师在拐角处 告诉你，你会去天堂。 或者，如果你不依照他的话去做，你就会去地狱。 不仅有牧师在拐角处 大师也在拐角处。 他们都是一样的。
1:19:55 So can one live a life so completely without a centre, and therefore no conflict, and then only that state of mind which is timeless comes into being. 所以，我们能否过着一个完全没有中枢的生活 因而没有任何冲突 只有那种心态 也就是时间寂灭的状态。
1:20:31 May I get up? 我可以起身了吗？