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SA80T2 - 思想和成为的活动
第二次公开讲话
瑞士，萨能
1980年7月8日



0:26 Krishnamurti: You must have a lot of courage to face this weather. 你们肯定拥有很大的勇气去面对这样的天气。
0:59 May we go on with what we were talking about on Sunday? We were saying that human beings have evolved for millions of years. Evolution implies time, not only physical time but psychological, inward time. Man has grown from the very beginning of time, of his existence, through various experiences, calamities, accidents, fears, anxieties, and so on. Our brain has evolved in that direction. And I think no one can dispute that point. And so it has formed a pattern, a pattern, a mould according to which it lives. This pattern, this mould is the process of time, which is called evolution. And so the brain and the mind – both are the same – can never be free. I hope you are thinking over together, this is not a propaganda or persuading you to think in a particular direction. We are thinking together, trying to find out the causes why human beings live the way we are living, though we have had million years of experience, sorrow, fear, pleasure, and so on. We were asking yesterday or the day before, why, what is the cause of all this terror, misery, confusion, uncertainty. And we were saying that one of the causes may be that from the very beginning man has sought security, not only in the environment, but also inwardly security. That may be one of the causes of this present calamity. 我们可以继续我们星期天的所谈的东西吗？ 我们说，人类已经进化演变 数百万年了。 进化意味着时间 不仅是物理时间，也包括心理的，内在的时间。 在世上开始有时间，有人类以来，人类就不断地成长 通过各种各样的经验，灾害，事故，恐惧 焦虑，等等。 我们的大脑已朝着那个方向进化。 而我认为没有人可以否定这一点。 因此，它已形成一种模式 一个模式，一个根据它的生存方式打造的模具。 这种模式，这个模具 是时间的过程，也就是所谓的进化。 这样一来，大脑和心 两者是相同的 - 永远都不能自由。 我希望你们正在一同思考它 这不是一个宣传 或去说服你朝一个特定的方向思考。 我们在共同思考 试图找出那些原因，为什么人类 以我们现在的生活方式过日子 虽然我们有百万年的经验 悲伤，恐惧，快乐，等等。 我们昨天或前一天问过 为什么，什么是造成这一切恐怖 痛苦，混乱，不确定性的原因。 而我们说 这其中之一的原因可能是 从初始以来，人类就一直寻求安全 不仅是环境的，也包括内心的安全。 这可能是目前的灾难的原因之一。
4:21 And also we said it may be that during all this evolutionary time man has cultivated the idea of individuality – the me and the you. The ‘me’ separate, struggling, fighting against you to survive. And that may be one of the causes of this present misery, confusion and terror. And also we said one of the major causes may be thought itself. And we pointed out, where there is a cause there can also be an end to that cause. I think this we must clearly understand right from the beginning. A cause, a beginning, a motive, which has its own effect, and that causation can continue all the time. And that cause can be ended. I think this is obvious if you go into it for yourself. 而且我们也说，它可能是 在这一切进化的时间里 人类培育了个体化的理念 - ‘我’和‘你’。 这个'我'在分别，挣扎，为了生存而与‘你’战斗。 而这可能是原因之一 造成目前的苦难，混乱和恐怖。 而我们也说，主要的原因之一，可能是念头本身。 我们也指出 哪里有原因，那里就有那原因的了结。 我觉得我们一开始就必须清楚了解这一点。 一个因，一个开始，一个动机 有它自己的果 而这种因果关系可以一直持续下去。 但那个因也可以被了结。 我认为，如果你亲自去深入探讨，它就会很明显。
5:59 As we said yesterday, if you have physical pain, there is a cause for that pain. And that cause, that pain? can be ended. Similarly, psychologically, there may be a cause for our suffering, for our fears, anxieties, and so on. And that cause, if there is a cause, can be ended. This is a law, and you can’t help, this is so. 正如我们昨天所说 如果你有身体的疼痛，就有造成那疼痛的原因。 而那个原因，那个疼痛可以被消除。 同样的，在心理上 我们的痛苦也可能有一个原因 使我们恐惧，焦虑，等等。 而这个原因，如果有了原因，就可以了结它。 这是一个规律，你无可奈何...它就是这样。
6:43 And we were asking yesterday, or the day before, what is the basic cause of all this confusion? Is there one cause or several causes? I do not know, if you have gone into it and thought over it, or merely passed it by and have not given your attention to it to find out for yourself, but as we go along, perhaps, we shall be able to find out the one cause, or several causes. If there are several causes for our misery, is it possible to analyse these causes? Please, go very carefully with me, we are thinking together, I am not telling you what to think. I am not doing any kind of propaganda. I am not... the speaker is not persuading you in any direction. Because we must be free to observe and find out, and therefore there is no authority, there is no group or sect or person who will tell you. We have to be so alert to find out for ourselves. 而在昨天或前一天，我们问 这一切混乱的根本原因是什么？ 是一个原因还是有几个原因？ 我不知道你有没有深入去仔细思考它 或者只是囫囵吞枣 并没有给于你的专注去亲身把它找出来 但是，当我们进展下去，我们准能找到 单一的原因，或者几个原因。 如果我们的苦难有几个原因 是否有可能去分析这些原因呢？ 请非常仔细地跟着我 我们在一起思考，我不告诉你要去思考什么。 我不是在做任何形式的宣传。 我不是...发言者不是要说服你朝往任何方向。 因为我们必须能够自由地观察和了解 因此也没有权威 没有集团，或部派，或人，去告诉你。 我们必须保持警惕去自己找出来。
8:32 So we are saying: are there many causes for this, or there is only one supreme cause, which includes all other causes? You are following? We said, may be, one of the causes may be this constant desire for security, to be safe, to be protected, to feel that one is stable, without any uncertainty. And we said also there may be a cause, which is: man has always thought of himself as an individual, separate from the whole of humanity, and therefore he has built a wall of division between himself and the rest, and that may be one of the causes. And the other cause is, may be, thought itself. 因此我们说： 是否有很多原因 还是只有一个至高无上的原因，概括了所有其他的原因？ 你跟进吗？ 我们说，可能，其中的一个原因可能是 那不断追求安全的欲望 要安全，要受到保护 要觉得安稳，没有任何不确定性。 而我们也说，可能有一个原因，就是 人总是认为自己是一个个体 与整个人类是分开的 因此他建立了一道墙去隔开 自己与其他人，而这可能也是原因之一。 而其他的原因可能是，念头本身。
10:19 So man and his brain and mind have been moulded through time, through what is called evolution, millions and millions of years. And time has not given him freedom. He may be free outwardly. He can go about from country to country, from job to job, from one business to another, certainly not in the totalitarian countries, but in the democratic, so-called democratic society, there is a certain amount of freedom, physically. But psychologically, inwardly, the mind, which includes the brain, has been moulded through time, and therefore it is never, never free. And it may be one of the causes that man has made himself a prisoner, psychologically, and therefore there is no freedom for him to flower. Right? I hope we are meeting each other. Please, if I may ask, we are thinking together. You have to exercise your brain, your mind, your heart, to find this out, because if we don’t, we are going to destroy each other. That is what is happening in the world. One nation becoming more important than the other, one tribe more important than the other, building up armaments – you know, all the rest of it. Four hundred thousand million dollars in war every year. You understand the craziness of this? 所以，人和他的大脑与心被打模，通过时间 通过所谓的进化 几百万年来不断地被铸型。 而时间没有给他自由。 外在他可能是自由的。 他可以周游列国，跳槽换工作 转行做别的生意 在极权国家里肯定不能 但在民主国家，所谓的民主社会里 人身方面，却有一定的自由。 但是在心理方面，内在的， 心包括大脑 通过时间已被打模成型 因此它永远，永远是不自由的。 而它可能是原因之一 导致人类把自己变成囚犯 在心理上，因而 丧失了旺盛开花的自由。 对不对？我希望我们彼此相应。 拜托，如果我可以问，我们是在一起思考。 你必须应用你的大脑，你的思想，你的心 去把它找出来 因为如果我们不这样做，我们将会摧毁对方。 这就是在世界上发生的事情。 一个国家变得比其他的重要 一个部落比其他的重要 建立军备 - 你知道所有其余的。 四十万亿美元，每年战争的花费。 你理解这种疯狂性吗？
12:58 So the brain, the mind, which are one, has never been free. And without freedom man cannot flower. He cannot possibly go beyond himself. And that may be one of the major causes of our confusion because inwardly we are not free. We have been moulded through time to certain patterns. If you have observed your own mind, your own brain in operation, one can find out very easily that we have repeated a certain pattern, walked along a certain path for a million years. We have been brainwashed by the priests for 2000 years in the West, brainwashed in the East for perhaps three, four, 5000 years and more. So our brains are conditioned. Our brains are moulded according to a certain edict, sanctions, sanctions by the teachers, by the philosophers, by the priests. The priests acting between you and that. They are the saviours. Perhaps it was good at a certain time, in ancient Egypt, ancient Eastern civilisations, but now that kind of thing has become rather infantile. 因此大脑，心，两者为一，从来没有自由过。 而没有自由， 人就不能旺盛开花。 他不可能超越自己。 这可能是我们的困惑的主要原因之一 因为我们的内心是不自由的。 通过时间我们已被塑造一定模式。 如果你曾经观察过你自己的心， 你运作中的大脑 你将轻易地发现 我们已重复了某个模式 走过某条路百万年了。 我们已被西方的传教士洗脑了两千多年 在东方被洗脑或许也有三，四，五千多年。 因此，我们的大脑已被调节规范了。 我们的大脑是按照某种诏书法令来塑造 由老师，由哲学家，由传教士来制裁。 传教士在你们和那个之间活动。 他们是救星。 在某些时刻，那或许很好 在古埃及，古东方文明之时 但现在这种事情已变得相当幼稚。
15:08 So what is the cause of all this? Man, technologically, intellectually, scientifically, in all those directions has evolved enormously. He has become extraordinarily clever, erudite, capable, not only to kill each other, but to heal each other, medicine, surgery, and so on. And as we pointed out the other day, science is trying to find through matter the ultimate. If you have talked with scientists, it is so. That is, through matter, outside, and investigate, investigate, investigate, accumulate a great deal of knowledge about the outer, and hoping to find out through that the original, the origin of all this. The scientists are doing that. 那么，这一切的原因是什么呢？ 人类在技术，智力，科学 所有这些方向都有巨大的演变。 他已变成异常聪明 博学，精干，不仅在杀害彼此方面 也在互相治愈之上 药物，手术，等等。 正如我们那天所指出的 科学试图在物质里找出最终答案。 如果你有与科学家交谈过，就是这样。 也就是说，通过物质，外在 不断调查，调查，调查 积累大量关于外在的知识 并希望通过这些去发现 原本的，一切事物的起源。 科学家们正在这样做。
16:36 The religious people say: there is God. And that God has created this world. That God must be rather a miserable God, rather confused, corrupt God, to make this world as it is. Or you have your own particular pet theory, the origin of all this. Intellectually conceived, intellectually comprehending the many philosophers, the theologians, the theoreticians of the Communists, as well as the Christian theologians, and so on; you might have certain conclusions, opinions, judgements. But if you want to find out the origin of all this, you must set aside everything of all that, obviously. And that demands not only a certain quality of strength, of perception, but it requires very careful observation, not analysis. Again, analysis is the pattern of time. We have analysed, analysed, analysed, not only the world outside of us, but also philosophers, psychologists, psychotherapists have analysed our minds and have come to certain conclusions, certain concepts, and so on. And we are conditioned by these people. And to find out what is the original cause of all this, one must be free of all that, otherwise there is no freedom. Freedom is not to go from this village to that village, or freedom of choice in your job, freedom of speech, freedom of this and that, but real freedom lies when the mind and the brain, or the whole organism of psychological structure, is free from all the patterns, from all the moulds, from all the impositions of others on our minds and heart. 宗教人士说有上帝。 并认为上帝创造了这个世界。 那个上帝一定是个相当悲惨的上帝 相当混乱，腐败的上帝，去制造出这么一个世界。 或者你有自己个别的宠物理论 这一切的起源。 理智地去设想出来，理智地 理解了许多哲学家，神学家 共产主义理论家，以及 基督教神学家，等等 你可能有了某些结论，意见，判断。 但是，如果你想找出这一切的起源 很明显，你必须把所有那些都搁置一旁。 这不仅需要一定质量的实力和感知， 也需要非常仔细的观察，不是分析。 再次，分析是时间的模式。 我们曾经分析，分析，分析 不仅对我们的外在世界，并且 哲学家，心理学家，心理治疗师 也分析了我们的思想 并有了某个结论 某些概念，等等。 而我们都被这些人调教规范了。 而要去找出什么是这一切的本来原因 你必须不被那一切所困 否则就没有自由了。 自由不是从这个村走去那个村 或是你选择工作的自由 言论的自由，这个自由和那个自由 但真正的自由存在于，当我们的心和大脑 或整个心理结构的生命体 摆脱了所有的模式，所有的模具 摆脱所有别人强加在我们的脑和心的东西。
20:05 So if you are serious, and I hope you are, and you must be, because of this coming and sitting here in spite of this awful weather, I hope you are serious enough to go into all this. It is not just this morning or the day before yesterday, but it will be a continuous enquiry, observation. Don’t please say, ‘I have heard him. I have understood’, or ‘He is talking nonsense’, and walk out. One must have a great deal of patience. Impatience is time. Patience is not time. Patience means observation, close, careful, critical, step by step observation. That is real patience. In that observation, there is no time. But if you are impatient to get on, then you are running ahead without understanding the beginning. 因此，如果你是认真的，我希望你是 而你应该是，因为你到来此处 而且坐在这里，尽管天气这么恶劣 我希望你足够认真去探讨这一切。 不只是在这个早上或前天 而它将是一个持续的查询，观察。 请不要说，'我听他说过。我已理解’ 或者'他胡说八道'，然后走出去。 一个人必须拥有极大的耐心。 急躁是时间。 耐心不是时间。 耐心是指观察 严密的，仔细的，批判性的，有步骤的观察。 这就是真正的耐心。 在这种观察中没有时间。 但是如果你急于能有所获 那么你是跑在前头却不理解起点。
21:36 So what is the cause of this misery? Is it the demand for security? Is it this illusion that we are separate, our brain is totally different from another brain, our minds, our behaviour is different from you and another? Or is it thought? There is no western thought or eastern thought. Thought is thought, whether you live in Asia, Far East or Middle East or in the West, it is still thought. Maybe thinking in a particular way, or in a particular direction, in a certain pattern, but that is still thought. Whether that thought is employed, exercised in the East or in the West, it is still thought. Perhaps conditioned by the environment in the West or in the East, but it is still thinking. So is that the cause of all this? Because if you have observed historically, man has gone on through this, in this way of living: fighting each other, strife, conflict, unhappiness, anxiety, a sense of constant, abiding fear, and the pursuit of pleasure, suffering, and a flash of love, translated as sex, and the idea of compassion – which is merely an idea, but not something living. 那么，什么是这个苦难的原因？ 它是对安全的需求吗？ 它是那个误以为我们是分开的错觉吗 我们的大脑与别的大脑完全不同 我们的思想，行为与你的和其他人的不同？ 或者它是念头？ 没有西方念头或东方念头之分。 念头就是念头 无论你在亚洲，远东或中东，或在西方 它仍然是念头。 也许有特定的思维方式，或特定的方向 特定的模式，但那仍然是念头。 不管这个念头是被运用于 行使于东方还是西方，它仍然是念头。 也许被西方或东方的环境所规范 但它仍然是思想。 所以那是这一切的原因吗？ 因为如果你曾经观察历史 人已经通过这种方式持续生活： 互相打斗，纷争，冲突，忧愁，焦虑 一种不变，持久的恐惧感 和快感的追求，痛苦 以及闪电般的爱，转译为性爱 还有慈悲的理念 - 它只是一个理念 不是活生生的东西。
24:35 So we are going to – together, please – we are walking on the same road together, I am not leading you, I am not telling you, I am not assuming any authority because though I sit on a platform. And I really mean all this. So we are walking together to find out, not through analysis. We must go into this question of analysis. When there is analysis, there is division. The analyser and the analysed. Right? The one assumes he knows and therefore he is able to analyse. Observe your own mind, sir, this is happening all the time when we are analysing. In the process of analysis, time is necessary. ‘I may not be able to analyse clearly today, but I am going to learn, acquire knowledge how to analyse’, and that implies day after day, month after month, or week after week, and gradually learn the art of analysis. Analysis implies there is a division of the analyser and the analysed. Right? So there is constant interpretation between the two, inter-relations between the two, one judging the other – you are following all this? – one imposing his dictum on the other. All that implies not only time but a constant division between the two. Right? Right? Are we going along together, please? 因此，我们要一起 - 拜托 我们要一起走在同一条路上 我不是在领导你 我不会告诉你 我不承担任何权威职位，因为，虽然我坐在一个平台之上。 但我是真的那样做。 因此，我们走在一起，去找出 不是通过分析。 我们一定要讨论一下分析的问题。 一旦有了分析，就有分割。 分析者和所分析。 对不对？ 分析者假设他懂得，所以他能够去分析。 各位，请观察自己的心 当我们在分析时，这时常会发生。 在分析的过程中，时间是必要的。 '今天我或许不能分析清楚 但我要去学习，去掌握如何分析的知识' 这意味着日复一日，月复一月 或一周复一周，并逐步学会分析的艺术。 分析意味着在分析者和所分析之间的分割。 对不对？ 因此，两者之间产生不断的解读 他们之间的关系，互相审批对方 你跟进这些吗？ - 一方对另一方下判词。 所有这一切不仅意味着时间 也意味两者不断的分裂。 对不对？ 对不对？拜托，我们步伐一致吗？
27:11 And this division has been one of our conditionings that the analyser is totally different from the analysed. But is that so? Is not the analyser the analysed? Are we going along together? When I analyse my anxiety, I, in analysing that thing called anxiety, how do I know that it is anxiety? You are following all this? Because I remember the previous experience of anxiety, I have remembered that, it is stored up in my brain, and the next time that a reaction takes place I recognise it and say that is anxiety. So there is always this division constantly maintained. But the fact is, if you observe, when you are angry, you are not different from anger. Only later on you say, ‘I have been angry’. I wonder if you are following all this! Please – right? – can we go on? Encourage me. Don’t encourage me! 而这个分割一直是我们的调教之一 令我们认为分析者和所分析是完全不同的。 但真的是这样吗？ 分析者不是所分析吗？ 我们步伐一致吗？ 当我分析自己的焦虑时 我，在分析那个叫焦虑的东西时 怎么能知道它是焦虑呢？ 你跟进这些吗？ 因为我想起以前焦虑的经验 我想起了它，它就储存在我的大脑中 而下一次，一个反应产生时 我认得它，并说这是焦虑。 所以这个分割总是不断地被维持下去。 但事实上，如果你去观察 当你生气时，你跟愤怒并无不同。 只是在后来，你却说，'我曾经生气。 我不知道你是否在跟进这些！ 拜托 - 对吗？ - 我们能继续下去吗？ 鼓励我。 （笑声） 不要鼓励我！ （众笑）
29:09 So when one realises: analysis maintains this division constantly, the I, the observer, is different from the observed, psychologically I am talking about, not that I am not different from the tree – I am different – but psychologically, this division is the essence of conflict, the essence of trying to be something which you are not, and therefore struggle. That is the pattern in which the brain has lived. Right? And we are saying that process of analysis doesn’t bring about freedom at all. On the contrary, it maintains constant conflict. And a mind, a brain, in constant conflict, must wear itself out, it is never fresh, it is never flowering, but is in conflict along the same path. Are we together in this? Do we see this? I am afraid you won’t because you may be analysts. It may be your profession. And when you are tied to something, you have already entered the path of corruption. Right? You are following all this? Please don’t be angry with me or upset. I am just pointing out the facts. Either you can look at the facts and act, or you say, ‘It is too much for me. As an analyst I depend on my wife, responsibility, my children, my patients, my Cadillacs, my Rolls Royces, my’... whatever car it is – and carry on. But if you are serious in your enquiry into all this, you must give your mind entirely to it. 因此，当我们意识到分析在不断地维持那个分割 我，观察者，不同于所观 我在谈心理上的 不是说我与那棵树没有不同，我与它不同 但在心理上，这个分割是冲突的本质 是试图以假当真的本质 因而斗争。 这是大脑一直以来的生活模式。 对不对？ 而我们说，分析的过程 不会带来任何自由。 相反，它维持不断的冲突。 而一个心，一个大脑，在不断的冲突中，必定会把自己消耗尽 它从来没有清新过 它从来不曾开花，但却沿着相同的路径起冲突。 这一点我们有共识吗？ 我们是否看到了吗？ 恐怕你没有因为你可能是分析师。 那可能是你的专业。 而当你附属于某样东西时 你已经踏上腐败之道。 对不对？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 请不要生我的气或感到难过。 我只是指出事实而已。 你可以去面对事实 而行动，或者你说，'这已超越我的能力范围。 作为一个分析师，我依靠我的妻子，责任 我的孩子，我的病人，我的凯迪拉克，我的劳斯莱斯，我的' 什么车也好 - 而维持现状。 但如果你对所有这些的咨询是认真的 你就必须把你整个心投进去。
32:14 So analysis prevents clear observation. To observe is much more important than to have an analytical mind. We have lost the power of observation, but we have cultivated the art of analysis. We never observe clearly what is going on in our minds and hearts, without any distortion. And as our minds and hearts are so distorted, so corrupt, we think that corruption, that distortion can be straightened out through analysis. And therefore that analysis is never clearly seeing the importance of it, the significance of it, because we are committed to it. It is like a man committed to a belief will never see himself how ridiculous it is. 因此，分析阻止清楚的观察。 去观察，比拥有一个懂得分析的头脑更重要。 我们已经失去了观察能力 但我们却培养出分析的艺术。 我们从没清楚地观察过 在没有任何失真的情况下，观察我们的脑海和心思。 而由于我们的脑和心是如此的扭曲，如此腐败 我们以为这个腐败，这个扭曲 可以通过分析来改正。 因此，这个分析从来没有清楚地看到 它的重要性，它的意义 因为我们付托于它。 正如一个付托于某个信仰的人 将永远不会看到自己是如何的可笑。
33:43 So we are saying, what is important is to observe the activity of our own minds and hearts. And that observation is prevented if there is any form of distortion, any form of direction, which means any motive. Therefore it requires an extraordinarily attentive mind. Right? Are we moving together? It may be something new, or something you haven’t heard before, or you have read it in some book or other. You know, it would be marvellous if you had read no book. Personally, I haven’t. If you have read no book at all, you have heard no preacher, no priest, no philosopher, no guru, and you can then come to it fresh, come to it so that you can observe your whole complete structure. But unfortunately we are all very clever people, well-read or read sloppily, picking up a little bit here, a little bit there, a little bit there, and think adding it all up and say, ‘I have got some knowledge’. Whereas if you are observing, it is really marvellous if you can do it, because in that there is freedom to observe, and that is the essence of freedom. Without that you cannot possibly enter into all this. 因此，我们说 最重要的是去观察 我们的脑和心的活动。 而这观察会被阻止 如果有任何形式的扭曲 任何形式的方向，即是任何动机。 因此，它需要一个非常专注的心。 对不对？我们步伐一致吗？ 这可能是新的东西，或是你闻所未闻的东西 或者你曾在某些书或其他刊物读过它。 你知道那是了不起的，如果你从没读过书。 我个人并非如此。 如果你从没读过书，你从没听过说教 没有传教士，没有哲学家，没有大师 那你就可以清新的前来 前来以便你可以观察你整个完整的结构。 但不幸的是，我们都是非常聪明的人，博览群书 或草率阅读，汲取这里一点 那里一点，那里又一点，然后想 把一切加起来，说，'我有一些知识？ 而如果你去观察 如果你能去做，那实在很奇妙 因为在过程中你能自由去观察 而那就是自由的本质。 除此以外，你不可能进入这一切。
36:26 I hope you are working as hard as the speaker is doing. 我希望你如同发言者一样的努力。
36:37 So we are saying: unless the cause is found, there is no ending to the pattern. Right? What is the cause of all this, of human misery? That is, you are humanity – please, see this – you are humanity, your brain has grown through a million years, it is not your brain, it is the common brain of man. Therefore you are the world, and the world is you. You are not Swiss, German, and all that nonsense. You are actually a human being like those human beings in the Far East – starving, unhappy, brutally butchered, you are those who suffer, anxious, you know, you are all that psychologically. So your mind, your heart, is humanity. You are not separate. If you can understand this! 因此，我们说： 除非能发现原因，不然无法消除这个模式。 对不对？ 是什么造成这一切人类的苦难？ 也就是说，你是人类 - 请看清这一点 - 你是人类 你的大脑经历了百万年不断的成长 它不是你的大脑，它是人类共同的大脑。 因此，你是世界，世界就是你。 你不是瑞士人，德国人，和所有的胡扯。 你实际上是一个人类 正如那些远东地区的人类 挨饿，不快乐，被残酷屠杀 你是那些受苦，焦虑的人，你知道 在心理上，你是他们。 所以你的脑，你的心，是人类。 你不是单独的。如果你能理解这！
38:16 So we are saying: our mind is a common mind, common brain which has grown through time, and that brain and mind has functioned along a certain direction all these years – millennia. And we are going on in the same way, only modifying, adjusting, withdrawing, shrinking, expanding, but it is the same direction. And when you see all this, how man is destroying himself and the earth and the air, and nature, the animals, one feels tremendously responsible. And what is the origin of all this? What is the cause of all this? Right? Let’s move. 所以我们说：我们的心是一个共同的心 共同的脑，它与日俱增 而这个脑和心是沿着一定的方向运作 这些年来 - 千百年来。 而我们还在以同样的方式 只加以修改，调整，撤销 缩小，扩大，但它还是朝向同一个方向。 当你看到这一切 人正怎样地摧毁自己和大地和大气 以及自然，动物，我们会感觉自己责任重大。 而这一切的起源是什么？这一切的原因是什么？ 对不对？让我们继续。
39:37 Is it thought? Thought is the movement from knowledge. You understand? Experience, knowledge, memory, thought – it is one movement. It is not first acquiring experience, then knowledge, then memory, then thought; it is one unitary movement, all the time going on, in the same direction. Right? Right, sirs? Is that the essence, the real cause, not the individual, not this desire for security, but the very movement of thought that has brought about this present chaos in the world? Please, enquire with me, don’t agree or disagree, because then we can’t meet. There is no communication if you disagree or agree. But if you are observing, moving, living, then it is something vital. Thought has created marvellous things: the great cathedrals, the marvellous architecture, the great songs, poems, music, the extraordinary technology, the bomb, the atom – it is all the result of thought. The enormous accumulation of armaments to destroy each other, is the result of thought. And all the knowledge accumulated by the scientists is the result of thought. That is, if you are not thinking, you cannot go to your home, you cannot speak language. So thought has an extraordinarily important place. But we are enquiring, observing, the cause of this misery of man, apart from the world of physical convenience, communication, telephone, and all the transportation, we are not talking about that, that is obvious. But is thought the essence of our misery? You understand? If it is, then can that end? You understand my question? Please, join with me, don’t go to sleep or yawn or scratch. Just, please, give your attention to this. 它是念头吗？ 念头是知识产生的运动。 你明白吗？ 经验，知识，记忆，思维，它是一种运动。 它不是先获取经验，然后知识 然后记忆，然后念头，它是单一的运动 不停的运作，朝向同一个方向。 对不对？ 各位，对不对？ 它是不是本质，真正的原因 不是个人，不是追求安全的欲望 而是念头的运动本身 它带来现今世界的混乱？ 请和我一同去咨询，不要同意或反对 因为那样，我们就无法相应。 如果你反对或同意，都不能有沟通，。 但如果你在观察，运行，生活，则它变得非常重要。 念头已创造出了不起的东西： 伟大的教堂，奇妙的建筑 伟大的歌曲，诗歌，音乐... 非凡的技术... 炸弹，原子，它们都是念头的产物。 积累了庞大的军备 去摧毁对方，是念头的结果。 以及所有科学家积累的知识 都是念头的结果。 也就是说，如果你没有思考，你就回不到家 你就不会应用语言。 所以，念头有极其重要的地位。 但是，我们询问，观察 这人类痛苦的原因 除了外在世界的便利，交通 电话，和所有的...交通工具 我们不是在谈论这些，这是显而易见的。 但是，念头是不是 我们苦难的本质？ 你明白吗？ 如果是的话，可以了结它吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 请跟着我，不要睡觉或打哈欠或抓痒。 只是请你专注这一点。
44:09 You know, any man who is suffering, physically, will do anything – will spend money, take a long journey – anything to get cured. But we don’t seem to spend even half that time or a quarter of that time, to enquire into all this: why human beings go through such agony of life, why life has become so dangerous, so utterly meaningless, as we are living. So, is thought the origin of all this? And is thought the centre of all our existence? You understand? Our love, our affections, our remembrances, the creating of images – all that is the movement of thought. And our relationship with each other is the movement of thought. And thought, as we said, is the child of knowledge. If you had no knowledge, you wouldn’t be able to think at all. And knowledge is always limited. There is no complete knowledge about anything. There is a complete understanding of something beyond all this, when knowledge comes to an end. We will go into that presently, much later. We are not selling something now for you to wait and catch something later! But unless you follow this step by step, it becomes very, very difficult to comprehend further. You understand? There is no complete knowledge about anything: about the universe, about astrophysicists – can’t find it – the scholars, the philosophers, the gurus – all of them are based on knowledge. And that knowledge is incomplete. They may say, ‘I believe in God, who is supreme, omnipotent’, and all the rest of it, ‘and he alone knows complete knowledge, or the end of knowledge’. But we are not talking such nonsense. We are pointing out that knowledge is always limited because it is always within the shadow of ignorance. Right? Are we meeting each other? Please, come on, sirs! 你知道任何身体疼痛的人都会做任何事情 会花钱，会长途跋涉，做任何事情去得到治愈。 但是，我们似乎不会去花甚至一半的时间 或四分之一的时间，去咨询这一切 为什么人类要经历这样痛苦的生活 为什么生命变得如此危险 如此毫无意义，我们就是如此生活。 因此念头是这一切的起源吗？ 念头是我们存在的中心吗？ 你明白吗？ 我们的爱，我们的感情，我们的回忆 各种影象的创造，一切都是念头的运动。 我们之间的关系也是念头的运动。 而念头，正如我们所说，是知识的产儿。 如果你没有知识，你将完全无法思考。 而知识总是有限的。 关于任何事物，都没有完整的知识。 却有一种超越这一切的全面理解 会在知识结束之时显现。 我们将会去探讨它，迟一些。 我们现在不是在推销东西 让你等待（笑声）然后去抢购！ 但是，除非你按照这个一步一步来 它会变得非常，非常困难去进一步的理解。 你明白吗？ 没有完整的关于任何东西的知识： 关于宇宙，关于天体物理学家 - 找不到它 学者，哲学家，大师 他们都是奠基于知识的。 而那些知识都是不完整的。 他们可能会说，'我相信至高无上，无所不能的上帝' 和其他的一切 '也只有他知道完整的知识，或知识的终结’？ 但我们不是在说这样的废话。 我们是在指出，知识总是有限的 因为它总是处在无知的阴影中。 对不对？ 我们之间有相应吗？ 拜托，不是吧，各位！
48:08 Even the greatest philosophers, the world specialists, the theoreticians, the people of the church and religion, they can never under any circumstances, unless they are foolish, claim complete knowledge. And so our thinking, which is born out of knowledge, is limited. Right? There is no complete thinking. So our actions then are limited. Our observations are limited, as long as there is the functioning of thought. Right? If I observe you analytically, examining you analytically, then that analysis is the process of thought, and therefore my observation and conclusion must be totally limited. Right? You are following this? It means a great sense of humility to observe. You understand, sir? Not ‘I know, I will observe’, but humility, that is, freedom from this certainty to observe. I will go into that presently. 即使是最伟大的哲学家，世界专家 理论家，教会和宗教人士 在任何情况下他们都不能 除非他们是愚蠢的，自称拥有完整的知识。 所以我们的思维，从知识衍生出来，是有限的。 对不对？没有完整的思维。 因此，我们的行动，也是有限的。 我们的观察是有限的 只要有念头的运作。 对不对？ 如果我用分析法去观察你，去检查你 那么这种分析是念头的过程 因此我的观察和结论肯定是完全有限的。 对不对？你跟进这吗？ 这表示必须用非常谦逊的态度去观察。 你明白吗，先生？ 不是'我知道，我会去观察' 而是谦卑地，也就是，毫无肯定地观察。 我将进入这个讨论。
50:10 So, if thought is the origin of all this mess, and it looks like it – don’t accept what I am saying – our misery, our war, the division amongst people, the division of religions, the division of professions, the division of this whole becoming, is the movement of thought. I do not know if you have observed how in the physical world the man becomes a clerk, or a priest, or a foreman, or a business man, and is climbing the ladder. He is all the time becoming something, physically. The parish priest becomes the bishop, the bishop becomes a cardinal, archbishop, and the archbishop, the cardinal becomes the pope. It is the same pattern physically repeated. Psychologically, inwardly, we are doing the same, becoming something all the time: ‘I am not this, but I will be that’, ‘I am not good, but I will be better’. You understand? So this movement of becoming – please, understand this – this feeling of becoming is the movement of thought in time. Right? And that may be the origin of all this mess. Everyone is trying to become something. Understand, physically, to become something, it is rather competitive, cruel, destructive, but one can see what is happening, and not go into that game. But to see it psychologically is quite a different matter. You hear this – please, observe – you hear this, that is, psychologically, you are becoming something all the time: conflict, conflict, conflict, struggle, fight, push. And that may be the cause of this destructive world in which we live. 因此，如果念头是这一切混乱的起源 它看起来正是如此 不要接受我所说的 我们的苦难，我们的战争，人与人之间的分割 宗教的分割，职业的分割 这整个形成的分割是念头的运动。 我不知道你有没有观察到 在物理世界里，人如何 成为文员，或牧师，或工头 或生意人，不停地攀登阶梯。 在世间，他不断地形成转变。 本堂司铎成为主教 主教又成为枢机主教，大主教 而大主教，枢机主教 - 成为教皇。 这是同样的模式在世间不断重复。 在心理上，内心里，我们也在做着同样的事 不断地形成转变：'我不是这样，但我将会是那样？ '我不好，但我会更好？ 你明白吗？ 因此，这形成的运动 - 请弄明白这一点 这形成的感觉是念头在时间里的运动。 对不对？ 而那可能是这一切混乱的起源。 每个人都试图去成就某个理想。 去理解，用躯体，去成为某个角色 这是相当具竞争性，残忍，破坏性的 但我们也可以看清实际状况，而不参与那场竞赛。 但要在心理上看清它，却完全是另一回事。 你听这个 - 请观察 - 你听这个，就是 在心理上，你不断的转变形成 冲突，冲突，冲突，争扎，打斗，推压。 而这可能是造成我们所居住的破坏性世界的原因。
53:43 Now, that becoming is the movement of thought. You are following this? I compare myself with you psychologically, I say, ‘How intelligent you are, how affectionate, how considerate’, how this and that and the other, and I am attempting to become that. Comparison is the movement of thought. Right? Va bene. 现在，这个形成是念头的运动。 你跟进这吗？ 我在心理上与你作比较，我说... '你是多么聪明，多么亲切，多么体贴' 多么这个那个，又多么那个，我试图成为那个。 比较是念头的运动。 对不对？ 很好。
54:36 Sir, look, I have stated this: now what does the mind do when you hear this statement? It doesn’t observe immediately what is happening in yourself, but hearing a statement of that kind, the mind makes an abstraction of it into an idea, and then you dispute about that idea. Whereas the actuality is different from the idea. The word ‘suffering’ is different from the actual suffering. Right? Now, if you listen kindly to what is said, that the mind and heart and the brain – they are all one, really – have been conditioned through time, through culture, through religion, to become something. And in this becoming there is competition, struggle, ruthlessness, violence, and so on. When you hear that, is it an actuality to you, or an idea? You follow this? Is it an idea, or a fact? Because this is very important to understand this. Because our minds are always functioning in ideas, not with facts. Psychologically, I am talking. Psychologically, the brain immediately makes an abstraction of a fact, which is called the ideal, and so on, so on, so on. Whereas if you observe, the fact is more important than the idea. And you can deal with the fact, you can do something about the fact, but you cannot possibly do something about an idea, except create more contention, different opinions about ideas, and the ideologists, and all the rest of it follows. But if you observe the fact, that is: the brain, the mind and the heart – it is all one – this mind is always trying to become something. That is a fact, not an idea. 先生，你看，我这样说过： 现在，当你听到这种声明，你的心在想什么呢？ 它不会立即去观察发生在自己本身的事 但听到这种的声明 心会把它抽象化 形成一个理念，然后你才去争论这个理念。 而实际与这个理念是不同的。 ‘痛苦'这个词，与真正的痛苦是不同的。 对不对？ 现在，如果你好好去聆听我所说的 就是，人的思想，心和脑 - 它们其实都是同一体 被调教规范，通过时间，通过文化 通过宗教，形成某种习性... 而在这形成的过程中，有竞争 斗争，残酷，暴力等。 当你听到这个，对于你，它是一个现实，还是一个理念？ 你跟进吗？ 它是理念，还是事实？ 因为了解这一点是非常重要的。 因为我们的脑总是在理念中发挥功能 不以事实操作。 我是说，在心理上。 在心理上，大脑会立即把事实抽象化 成为所谓的理念，等等，等等，等等。 但如果你去观察，事实却是比理念更重要。 而且你可以去处理事实 对于事实，你可以有所作为 但你却不可能对一个理念做什么 除了制造更多的竞争，产生有关理念的不同意见 还有思想家和随之而来的一切。 但如果你去观察事实 就是：大脑，思想和心 - 它们是一体的 这个思想总是试图要成为某个角色。 这是事实，不是理念。
58:04 Now just go slowly. Is the fact different from you who are observing the fact? You are understanding all this? The fact is each one of us, in different ways, is trying to become something, not only in the outer world but also psychologically, primarily. Psychologically, primarily, inwardly, affects the outer completely, not the other way round, which the Communists try to assert. If you observe, it is the other way round. They had marvellous theories, the Communists, at one time: having no government, no army, everyone was equal – and look what has happened! So ideas are the most destructive, not facts. The fact is this: and we are saying, is that the cause of all this misery of man? Which is, thought has built this structure, psychological structure, which is based on – be something other than what is. Right? Are you following this, sirs? 现在慢慢来观察。 这个事实和观察事实的你是不同的吗？ 你明白这一切吗？ 事实上，我们每个人 在不同的方式下，都试图成为某个角色 不仅在外在的世界，基本上在心理上也一样。 在心理方面，基本上，内心完全影响外在 不是反过来，如共产党所试图断言。 如果你去观察，它是另一回事。 在某个时候，那些共产党，他们有精彩的理论： 没有了政府，没有了军队 人人平等 - ，看看到底发生了什么事！ 所以理念是最具破坏性的，不是事实。 事实是这样：而我们说 那是造成所有人类的痛苦的原因吗？ 就是，念头 已建成这种结构，心理结构 它是基于却异于‘如是’的东西。 对不对？ 你们在跟进吗，各位？
1:00:09 So, if that is the cause, then is it possible to live in this world, psychologically, without becoming anything? Which doesn’t mean that you are what you are. You understand? Because what are you? You are nothing but becoming. I wonder if you see that! I am tired. Not tired, I am putting so much into this. Do you understand this, sirs? That is, if you say I don’t become anything, what am I? Then I might become a vegetable, do nothing. But have you ever enquired, gone into this question of not becoming anything? Which means the total ending of comparison, and imitation, conformity, psychologically. You follow? That is, if there is to be an end to the cause of this human global misery, and if that is the cause that each human being, right throughout the world, whether he is living in a small little village, or on a most high, sophisticated thirtieth floor, they are still following the same pattern set through millennia. And if that is the cause, it can be ended, naturally. Then what is man? You follow? Is he just nothing? Follow this carefully. In becoming, are you something? You are following all this? Psychologically becoming something, you are nothing at the end of it. I wonder if you realise it. But we are afraid of that. 因此，如果那是原因 那么有没有可能生活在这个世界上 在心理上却没有任何形成？ 这并不意味着你就是你。 你明白吗？ 因为你是什么？ 除了形成，你什么都不是。我不知道你是否看到这一点！ 我累了。 不是累，我把这么多放入这里。（笑声） 你明白这一点吗，各位？ 也就是说，如果你说我不形成任何身份，我又是什么？ 那么，我可能会变成一种蔬菜，什么也不做。 但你可曾去咨询 去深入这个不形成任何身份的问题？ 这表示完全结束任何比较，模仿，顺应 在心理上。你跟进吗？ 也就是说，如果要去了结那个原因 导致全球人类痛苦的原因 如果是这个原因，导致每个人类 全世界的人类 不管他是居住在小村庄 或最高层，最尖端的第三十楼 他们依然遵循着几千年来设置的相同模式。 如果是这个原因，它自然可以被终结。 那么什么是人类呢？ 你跟进吗？ 他什么都不是吗？ 请仔细跟进这个。 在形成中，你是某物吗？ 你跟进这一切吗？ 心理上变成某物 最终你什么都不是。 不知道你是否意识到这一点。 但是，我们担心那样。
1:03:16 So, if that is the cause, and a cause has always an ending, and is this becoming the movement of thought? I want to know myself – self-knowledge. See the fallacy of this. Sorry! I want to know myself, and I begin to analyse, I begin to observe, I begin to question. The very observation, the very questioning, the very movement inwardly, as it were, is still the movement of becoming. You have understood? I wonder if you see all this because this is really very... we are coming to some very basic things. So any movement of the mind not to become or to become is the same. I wonder if you see this. Yes, sir? Right? To become is the movement of thought. And you say, ‘I see it and I must end it and become something else’, it is still the movement of thought in a different direction. Right? So can that movement of thought end? Is this all too abstract? No, no, I don’t deal in abstractions, personally. I have a horror of all that. 因此，如果是那个原因 而每个原因总有结束 而这形成是念头的运动吗？ 我想认识我自己 - 自我知识。 看看这个谬论。 对不起！ （笑声） 我想认识我自己 而我开始去分析，我开始去观察，我开始质疑。 这观察本身，质疑本身 即是这内心运动本身 仍然是形成的运动。 你懂了吗？ 我不知道你是否看到这一切，因为这真的很 我们正开始触及一些非常基本的东西。 因此，任何思维运动 去形成或不去形成是相同的。 我不知道你是否看到这一点。 是，先生？ 对不对？ 去形成是念头的运动。 而你说... '我看清它了，我必须结束它，去成为别的' 它仍是朝向不同方向的念头运动。 对不对？ 因此，这念头运动可以结束吗？ 这些都过于抽象吗？ 不，不，我个人从不与抽象的东西打交道。 我对它们有恐惧感。
1:05:53 So my mind, the mind, the human mind – not my mind, your mind, the mind – has followed this direction for centuries upon centuries, encouraged by the priests, by the philosophers, by the learned people, to know more, more, more, not only about yourself but outside. And if when somebody comes and says, ‘Look what you are doing’, then the idea that you must know yourself is to pursue that path, which is again to learn about yourself, so as to become something, or to become nothing. So it is the same movement in both directions. 所以，我的心，那个心，人类的心 不是我的心 - 是你的心，那个心 百年千年以来，一直遵循同样的方向 受到传教士的鼓励，哲学家的鼓励 有学之士的鼓励，去认识更多，更多，更多 不仅关于自己，也关于外在世界。 如果有某人到来，说道：'观你在做什么' 那么这个你必须自观的理念就是，去追求那条道路 它同样是去了解你自己 以便形成什么，或不形成什么。 因此，它只是朝两个方向的相同运动。
1:07:03 So the question is: can that movement end? You understand, sir? Come with me. Because if thought is the cause of all this misery, then can thought not move in any direction? I wonder if you are all following this! So one must go into this question: what is thinking? Because thinking has produced that noise, but thinking has not produced the noise of that stream. Thinking has produced wars, thinking has produced division in our relationship, the division based on – oh, for God’s sake – and the image that you have built about each other, naturally. Right? That image is the result of time. You may have a husband or a girlfriend or boyfriend, whatever it is – immediately the brain has formed an image. The image is the factor of separation, which is thought operating. When you say, ‘I remember you’, it’s the recollection, the remembrance of the past which has been registered in the brain, and then I remember you. The image is formed, which is thought, a symbol. A symbol, a myth, is not actual. Right? When you cross yourself... all the symbols in the churches aren’t the actual, are not the truth. 所以，问题是：这个运动可以结束吗？ 你明白吗，先生？ 跟我来。 因为如果念头是造成这一切苦难的原因 那么念头能否不朝任何方向运动？ 我不知道你们是否在跟进这个！ 因此，我们必须去探讨这个问题：什么是思考？ 因为思考产生出那个噪声（列车噪声） 但思考却没有产生那个流水的噪声。 思考导致战争 思考造成我们关系的分裂 分裂基于 哦，老天爷 自然也包括你们为彼此建立的形象。 对不对？ 这些形象是时间的结果。 你可能有一个丈夫或女朋友或男朋友，任何伴侣 大脑会立即成立一个形象。 这个形象是分别的因素 由念头来操作。 当你说，'我记得你' 它是追溯，回想起记录在脑中的过去 而产生的记忆，然后是我记得你。 那个形象被成立，它是念头，是符号。 一个符号，一个虚构形象是不实际的。 对不对？ 当你为你自己打十字 所有教堂里的符号都不是实际的 都不是真理。
1:10:28 So, as we said, thinking is a movement in time, because time is a factor of acquiring knowledge, through experience, through incidents, through accidents, through communication, and so on, it has acquired knowledge. That knowledge is the movement of thought. Right? I have an experience of meeting you yesterday, it is registered in the brain, I remember it and I say, ‘You are that person’. So it is very simple if you go into it. So thought is matter. Right? Oh, lord! Because I have discussed this with some scientists, some of them agree, some of them don’t agree, but it doesn’t matter, I am just telling you; you can agree or disagree, it doesn’t matter. Knowledge, which is always incomplete, is stored in the brain. The brain is matter. Right? The cells are matter, they contain the memories, therefore thought is matter. Now wait, watch this. Scientists are trying to find out, through matter outside, what lies beyond, if there is. But they never go inside themselves, which is: thought is matter. You are following all this? And enquiring through themselves if there is something far beyond all this. Not the imposition that there is God or... That is too immature and too silly. But we are now trying to enquire, through matter – you are following? I wonder if you follow all this! through thought, which is matter, and through that matter, to find out the source of all this. Right? You have understood? 因此，正如我们所说，思维是时间的运动 因为时间是获取知识的因素 通过经验，通过事件，通过事故... 通过沟通...等等，它获得了知识。 那些知识是念头的运动。 对不对？ 我有一个昨天与你们聚会的经验 它被记录在大脑中 我记得它，而我说，'你是那个人。’ 所以这很简单，如果你去探讨它。 所以念头是物质。 对不对？ 噢，天啊！ 因为我曾与一些科学家谈过这个 他们之中，有的同意，有的不同意 但这不要紧，我只是在告诉你 你可以同意或不同意，都没关系。 永不完整的知识 被储存在大脑中。 大脑是物质。 对不对？ 脑细胞是物质... 它们包含回忆... 因此念头是物质。 现在等一等，看看这个。 科学家们正试图去找出 通过外在的物质，以及可能存在的超物质。 但是，他们却从来不去往内观察，就是，念头是物质。 你正在跟进这一切吗？ 而通过自己本身去查询 如果有远远超越这一切的东西。 不是强说有上帝或... 那真是太不成熟，太傻了。 但是，我们现在正试图通过物质去查询 - 你跟进吗？ 我不知道你是否跟进这一切！ 通过念头，也就是物质 而通过此物质，去找出这一切的根源。 对不对？ 你懂了吗？
1:13:31 Quelle heure est il? 现在是什么时侯了？
1:13:35 Q: Il est midi moins vingt. Q:还有四十分就中午了。
1:13:40 K: Midi? J’ai parle une heure? K:中午？ 我已经讲了一小时？
1:13:45 Q: Andata una ora I dieci minuti. Q:已经一小时又十分钟。
1:13:48 K: Cinque minuti, au cora. K:五分钟，准确的说。
1:14:00 You understand, sir? See what is happening – if you go into it. Scientists and such people are trying to find out what lies beyond all this. If you have discussed with scientists, they will agree to this, even though the astrophysicists, who are looking into the skies and heavens, still it is matter. And we are saying... The scientists are operating through thought, but we are saying that thought itself is matter, and if that matter, which is me, I can enquire into myself, which is much more factual, much more drastic, highly disciplined, requires a certain quality of discipline, then it is possible to go infinitely further. And I will show it to you how to do this. Not show it, you have to walk with it. 你明白吗，先生？ 观察正在发生的事情 - 如果你进入它。 科学家和那些人正在尝试 去找出超越这一切的东西。 如果你曾经与科学家讨论过，他们会同意这一点 即使是天体物理学家 观察了天空，以及天堂，但那些仍然是物质。 而我们说... 科学家们是通过念头操作的 但我们也说念头本身是物质 如果自我是物质 我就可以去查询自己 这会更加切实 更加大刀阔斧，高度专业化 需要一定质量的规律 那么就有可能无限地进展。 我会展示给你们，如何去做到这一点。 不是展示给你看，你必须去实践它。
1:15:40 So if thought is matter, and thought has built the whole psychological structure – right? – my anxiety, my fears, my despairs, depressions, my moods, my love – everything thought has built – my feelings, my romantic dreams, my daydreams – everything is that. Which is difficult to admit for those people who are so-called religious because they start off that there is something spiritual in them right off, that they are souls, divine, this or that. But all that is thought, the higher consciousness, lower consciousness. According to the Hindus, the Atman, the Brahman, and all the rest, is still the movement of thought creating something outside. Like the Christians have done – the saviour, all that. 因此，如果念头是物质 而念头已建成整个心理结构 - 对不对？ - 我的焦虑，我的恐惧，我的失望，沮丧，我的心情 我的爱，所有念头的产物 我的感受，我的浪漫之梦，我的白日梦，一切都是。 这是难以令人去承认的 那些所谓的宗教人士，因为 他们从一开始就相信自己原本就含有某种圣灵 他们是灵魂，神圣非凡，这样那样。 但这一切，都是念头 高等意识，低等意识。（笑声） 跟据印度教所说的，阿特曼，婆罗门，以及其余的一切 仍然是念头运动创造出来的外在事物。 正如基督徒所为 - 救世主，那一切。
1:17:19 So if thought is the cause of all this misery, then what is the place of thought – we have described – then has it no other place? You understand my question? We said thought has a place, otherwise we couldn’t talk to each other, otherwise you couldn’t go home, you couldn’t catch a bus, you couldn’t do your job, and all the rest of it, which is based on knowledge, skill, and so on. There it is necessary. Thought must function, more objectively, more impersonally, more clearly, more efficiently. But thought has no other place except there. Right, sir? Because thought is building this psychological structure of ‘me’ who wants to become or not become. 因此，如果念头是造成这一切苦难的原因 那么，念头的角色是什么，我们所描述的 难道它就没有其他的角色了吗？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 我们说念头扮演着一个重要角色 否则，我们不可能互相交谈 否则，你不能回家，你不能搭公共汽车 你不能做你的工作，和所有的一切 这些都必须依靠知识，技能，等等。 这方面，它是必要的。 念头的功能，必须更客观 非主观，更清楚，更有效率。 但除了这方面，念头不能扮演其他角色。 对不对，先生？ 因为念头在建立这种心理结构 这个妄想去形成的'我' 或不想去形成的‘我’。
1:18:46 So is that possible to live in a world without any movement of thought building a structure of becoming? You understand my question? Find out. Unless there is no psychological structure, unless it isn’t there, you cannot go much further. You understand? That is natural, logical. As long as there is a centre, which is accumulating and becoming, that very centre is the essence of thought. And a mind that is not free from the structure which thought has built psychologically, the mind cannot possibly go any further. It can play tricks, it can live in illusions. 所以是否有可能，生活在一个世界 而没有任何念头运动去建立任何形成的结构？ 你明白我的问题吗？ 去找出答案。 除非我们没有心理结构 除非它不存在，你就不可能进一步理解。 你明白吗？这是自然的，合乎逻辑的。 只要有一个中心，在不断地积累和形成 这中心本身就是念头的本质。 如果一个心不能摆脱 念头所建立的心理结构 这个心就不可能进一步发展。 它可以玩弄技巧，它可以生活在幻想中。
1:20:22 So in our next talks and the rest of it, we are going to go step by step into the freeing of the mind from all the conditioning, from all the accumulation of ages which has corrupted it. 因此，在我们接下来的讲座，和问答对话 我们将一步一步地去解放我们的心 去摆脱所有的调教规范 摆脱那些积累了好久，不断腐蚀我们的心的知识。
1:20:43 Right, finished, sirs. May we get up? 好，结束，各位。 我们可以站起来了吗？