克里希那穆提 - 打破制约的模式

Krishnamurti Subtitles

SA80T4 - 打破制约的模式
第四次公开讲话
瑞士，萨能
1980年7月13日

0:38	Krishnamurti: May we continue with what we were talking about in the last three talks? Some of you may be have come for the first time or haven’t been to the other talks, so we should, if you don’t mind, we’ll repeat a little bit what we have said before.	我们可以继续谈论过去三次座谈的内容吗？你们有些人可能是，第一次来或者没有去过其他座谈会所以我们应该，如果你们不介意我们会重复一些，我们以前所谈过的内容。
1:16	Apparently man has lived for over five or six million years, and during all this evolutionary period, man has not been able, both outwardly and inwardly, to solve the great problem of conflict, conflict not only within himself, but conflict and wars, slaughter outside. And that is the pattern through all these millennia that the brain has followed this course, this mould, this pattern. And we are still continuing constantly in the same stream of misery, confusion and great sorrow, both inwardly and outwardly. And if we are at all serious and are concerned with what is happening in the world, and also within ourselves, one must wonder, or discuss, or find out, why the brain, the mind, because we are using ‘the mind’ as sensation, all the emotions, the reactions, and the responses of thought. All that is the brain, the mind and the heart, the whole psychological structure of human beings, both biologically as well as psychologically; why we human beings, who are supposed to be educated, evolved, sophisticated, cultured, why we live in this world killing each other, being divided by religions, by nationalities, by all the destructive division that thought has created between human beings. And is it possible to bring about a change in the very structure of the brain. That is what we have been talking about for the last three talks.	显然，人类已经生存超过了五或六百万年而在这所有的进化期间人却一直未能，无论外在或内在去解决冲突的大问题不只是自己内在的冲突也包括外在的冲突和战争，屠杀。而这是千百年来的同样模式大脑一直在遵循这个过程，模具，模式。而我们仍在持续不断在相同的苦难洪流里经受内在和外在的混乱和巨大悲痛。如果我们大体上有所认真和关心在世界上所发生的事以及我们内心的问题我们应该会想要知道，或讨论，或去找出为什么我们的脑，心因为我们用'心'来代表感觉所有的情感，反应和念头的反应。所有这一切是大脑，思想和心整个人类的心理结构生理上以及心理上为什么我们人类，虽然受过教育进化，成熟，有文化为什么我们却生活在这个世界里，互相残杀被宗教分割被民族主义分割遭受所有具破坏性的由念头在人们之间制造的分割。而有没有可能去实现一个大脑结构本身的变化。这是在过去三次讲座，我们一直在谈论的东西。
4:58	And also we said that this is not a talk by the man who is sitting on a platform talking about ideas. Any number of ideas have existed in the world, any number of ideologies, both the totalitarian, Marxist, Lenin, Mao, and the other type, ideologies of the Left, the Centre and the Right, the extremes of all these. And these ideologies have been very, very destructive, whether the religious ideologies or the political, economic ideologies. And the brain, the mind, the whole psychological structure of man, has lived in this pattern, has lived in this mould. And, as we said, this is not a talk by the speaker. We are together thinking over this problem, together. You are not just listening and agreeing, or disagreeing, going home having perhaps been a little interested, intellectually entertained. But I am afraid that is not the purpose of this gathering. We are together taking the journey, thinking together. And one must, if you are kindly give some attention to all this, because we are all human beings, whether we live in Russia, East, West, South, North. We all go through a great deal of torture, misery, anxiety, the burden of fears, and sorrow. This is the common lot of man, the common lot of humanity. And the common lot is the human being sitting here in the tent, whether we are from the East, West, North, South – we are humanity. Our brains and our minds are not individual brains and individual minds, it is the mind of humanity. I know, perhaps, many of you will disagree, but if you examine it impartially, objectively, scientifically, you will find that the brain is not yours, nor mine, it is the brain of human beings, which has evolved to the present condition in which we find ourselves.	而我们也说过，这个讲座不是由一个坐在平台上的男人去大谈理念。无数量的理念已经存在于这个世界上无数量的理念学家无论是极权主义，马克思主义，列宁，毛泽东或其他类型左派，中间和右派的意识形态所有这些的极端派系。而这些意识形态都是非常，非常具有破坏性的无论是宗教的意识形态或政治，经济的意识形态。而大脑，心整个人类的心理结构一直在这个模式中生活一直在这个模具里生活。而且，正如我们所说，这不是发言者的演讲。我们是在一起思考着这个问题 - 一起。你并非只是听，然后去赞同或反对回家时或者会有少许兴趣得到一些知性的娱乐。不过，那恐怕不是这次聚会的目的。我们是要一同踏上旅程一同去思考。而你应该，如果你是...好心给于这一切一些关注因为我们都是人类无论我们住在俄罗斯，东，西，南，北。我们都经历过大量的酷刑痛苦，焦虑，恐惧的负担，和悲伤。这是人的共同遭遇，人类的共同遭遇。也是坐在这个帐篷里的人的共同遭遇无论我们来自东，西，北，南，我们都是人类。我们的大脑和我们的心不是个别的大脑和个别的心它是人类的心。我知道，也许，你们很多人会不同意但如果你没有偏差地，客观地去检查它你会发现，按照科学来说，大脑不是你的也不是我的，它是人类的大脑它已经进化到现在的状态，我们现在的状况。
8:54	And we have been asking, examining, observing – not analysing, why the human mind has lived with this despair, this depression. Why human beings have not, during all these millennia, changed radically. That is the problem. That is what we have been talking over together. Talking over together, not listening to the speaker and say, ‘Well, he is theoretical, nonsensical, oriental’, and all the rest of that nonsense. Thought is neither oriental nor occidental. I think this is the basic fact. You may in the West think along a particular line – scientific, industrial, and so on, and in the East it may be different, but essentially it is thought, thinking, which is common to all of us. It is the lot of man to think. And thinking is not yours or mine, it is common. And this thought, born of knowledge, experience, memory, this thought has created the industrial world, built extraordinary bridges, beautiful bridges, great scientific inventions, surgery, medicine; and also thought has created wars. Thought has created all the architecture, beautiful and ugly, all the great paintings, the statues, and music. Thought has also created all those things that are in the cathedrals, in the temples, in the mosques. And thought has divided the religious world into Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, and so on. These are all facts. It is not the speaker’s invention. These are obvious, observable facts.	而我们一直在问，检查，观察 - 不是分析为什么人的大脑如此绝望地，抑郁的生活着。为什么人类却没有，这几千年来，根本地改变。这就是问题所在。这就是我们一直在共同讨论的。共同讨论，不是去听发言者演说然后说：'好吧，他有理论，瞎说，东方的' 和所有其他的废话。念头既非东方，也不是西方的。我认为这是基本的事实。你可以在西方，沿着特定的思路思考科学的，工业的，等等在东方，它可能是不同的但本质上，它是念头，思维这是我们大家共同的。思维是人类与生俱来的。而思维不是你的还是我的，它是共同的。而这个念头是知识，经验，记忆的产物这个念头创造了工业世界建造非凡的桥梁，美丽的桥梁伟大的科学发明外科，内科；但念头也制造了战争。念头创造了所有那些架构美与丑所有伟大的绘画，雕塑和音乐。念头也创造了在大教堂里所有的东西在寺庙，在清真寺里的东西。念头也把宗教世界分割成基督教，印度教，佛教，等等。这些都是事实。这不是发言者的发明。这些都是显而易见的事实。
12:16	And we have lived that way, tribally, which has become glorified nationality. And is it possible for this brain, which has been moulded in a particular pattern and has existed in a particular way: suffering, demanding, obeying, not obeying, conforming, and revolting against conformity – this has been the pattern. And any serious person must enquire whether it is possible to break down this pattern and live totally differently: without war, without antagonism, without anxiety, fear, sorrow. And if you are willing, and capable naturally, to think together, we can find out for ourselves whether it is possible or not. That is, more or less, what we have been talking about during the last three talks. Right?	而我们也一直以那种方式生活部落族群，发展成为荣耀的国籍。而这个大脑有没有可能虽然已被塑造成特定的模式并以特殊的方式存在：痛苦，奢求，服从，不服从，协调以及反抗协调 - 这是一直以来的模式。而任何认真的人必须去查询是否有可能去打破这种模式去过完全不同样的生活没有战争，没有对抗，没有焦虑，恐惧，悲伤。如果你愿意当然也有能力一同去思考，我们就可以为自己找出到底有没有这个可能性。也就是说，或多或少我们在过去三次讲座一直在谈论的东西。对不对？
14:13	As one observes one’s own mind, not the speaker’s mind, not the speaker’s words, which are ordinary, non-technological words, he is using non-technical words, not jargons, and so on, just ordinary, everyday English. And also, if one may point out, we are not trying to do any propaganda, we are not urging you to join any community, or to follow any guru. All that is silly, grownup people don’t do this kind of thing. Immature people do.	当一个人去观察自己的心不是发言者的心不是发言者所说的话这些都是普通非技术性的话他使用的是非技术性字眼，不是术语，等等只是普通的，日常英语。还有，如果我可以指出我们不是试图去做任何宣传我们不要求你加入任何社团，或跟随任何大师。所有那些都是愚蠢的成年人不会做这种事情。不成熟的人才会做。
15:20	So our question is: why the brain, which has got such immense capacity, why it has not solved its own problems, why it lives in this way? And as we said the other day, and we will repeat it again, if we may: thought is the core of this, is the centre of all this travail. Thought is born out of knowledge, experience, which becomes memory held in the brain cells. So thought is a material process. This we have discussed with several scientists who are brain specialists; some of them agree, some them don’t – naturally! That is their game. Some agree, some don’t, about everything. But thought has been the centre of all this human struggle, this human urge to go beyond itself, the urge to find God, if God exists, to find out what is illumination, if there is something beyond time, if there is something beyond man’s thought, which is eternal, and so on. And so thought has been exercised right from the very beginning. And thought has made the image that man must grow, evolve, become something. I hope you are following all this. Please, you are not following the speaker, you are following yourself. There is no teacher, nor disciple. That is truth. There is no follower and the leader in the world of mind, and there is only learning, not learning what someone has to inform you, but learning in action. We will go into that presently.	因此，我们的问题是：为什么大脑，拥有这么大的容量为什么它却还没解决自己的问题为什么它这么样的生活？而那天我们说过，如果我们可以，我们会重复一遍：念头是这些的核心，是这一切的劳苦的枢纽。念头是知识，经验的产物它成为储存在大脑细胞里的记忆。因此，念头是一个物质的过程。这一点我们曾与几位科学家讨论过他们是大脑的专家他们之中有些同意，当然，也有些不同意！那是他们的游戏。关于所有事物，他们有些同意，有些不。但念头一直是所有人类斗争的枢纽促使人类去超越自己促使人类去寻觅上帝，如果上帝有存在的话去找出什么是光明到底有没有超越时间的东西到底有没有超越人的念头，永恒的东西，等等。所以从一开始，念头就如此运作。而念头已经创造了人类必须成长，发展，形成的假象。我希望你在跟进这一切。拜托，你不是去跟随发言者你是跟随自己本身。这里没有老师，也没有弟子。这是真理。在心灵的世界，没有追随者，和领导者只有学习不是去学习某某人告诉你的东西而是在行动中学习。我们将去讨论这个。
19:21	So we are together examining, taking a journey into the very, very complex life of human beings, very complex. And to enter into this complexity, the mind must be free from all attachments, from any tie to anything – to your guru, to your conclusion, to your concepts, ideas, and so on, because when you are tied to something, when you are committed to a particular religion, to a particular system of thought, to a particular method of meditation, to a particular method or belief, and so on, so on, that very commitment brings corruption. Therefore a mind that is committed, taking sides, believing, cannot possibly enter, discover, whether this mind can itself transform. Right? I know it is very difficult to accept this, because every human being wants to be committed to something, he feels safe in that commitment. One feels safe if you have a leader, if you have a guru, if you have a particular system. And if you are attached to any person, If you are attached to any person, obviously, you can see corruption beginning, because in that attachment there is fear, hate, anxiety. Similarly, if you are attached to an idea or to a belief, to a concept, to a particular image or symbol of a religion, then corruption is inevitable. And one of the factors of this corruption is authority.	因此，我们是在一起研究一起踏入那非常复杂的人类生活的旅途非常复杂。而要进入这复杂的事物心必须摆脱所有的执著不受任何事物，你的大师，你的结论你的观念，理念，等等所捆绑因为当你被某样东西捆绑当你托付于某个宗教某个思想体系某个禅修法门某个方法或信仰，等等，等等这个托付本身会带来腐败。因此，一个托付他物的心偏袒一方，迷信是不可能去进入，去发现到底这个心本身是否可以转变。对不对？我知道要接受这个是很困难的因为每个人都想托付于某个东西在这个托付里，他觉得安全。你会感觉安全，如果你有一个领导者如果你有一个大师，如果你有某个系统。而如果你执着任何人... 如果你执着任何人显然，你可以看到腐败的开始因为这样的执著中有恐惧，仇恨，焦虑。同样，如果你执着一个理念或一个信仰一个概念，某个图像或宗教符号那么腐败是不可避免的。而这个腐败的因素之一是权威。
22:57	Are we coming, meeting together? Or are you sitting separate over there and the speaker over here? We are physically, but is there any kind of communication between us? Is there any kind of observation of the common factor together? Do we both see, not only intellectually, verbally, but actually as a fact – the fact. This microphone is a fact. Can we see the fact in ourselves that as long as you are committed, attached, tied to something – to a person, to a belief, to a concept – there must be corruption? Whether you are a Marxist, Leninist, Mao, or some latest guru, or attached to any particular system, there must be corruption. Do we see that as a fact? If I am committed to the idea that I am a Hindu, see what takes place. Or if you are committed as a Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, or belonging to some sect, some theological or democratic concept, you are tied, and therefore you are not free to examine. And there must be freedom. And authority, specially in the world of the mind, and the heart, and the brain, that is, to follow somebody, to accept some theological or theoretical concepts given by Marx, and so on, or by some Asiatic or Indian mind. If you accept that and follow it, mentally, in your actions, and so on, that is the very basis of authority and corruption. Do we see this together? Not just intellectually see it because one has carefully explained it, verbally it is very clear, but to do it, to see the consequences of this attachment, how it has divided the world into such chaos. And is it possible to be a light to oneself, not the light of another? Because our brain has been trained and evolved and accepted authority. Not only the outward authority of law, which is necessary, but the authority, the psychological authority, the so-called spiritual authority. We have become slaves to that authority. So we are controlled, shaped, connived at by those who say, ‘We know, we have attained, we will tell you what to do, follow us’. ‘We will lead you to heaven, save you from your sins’, and all that business that goes on in the world.	我们有没有相契相应呢？或者，你们分别坐在那边而发言者却坐在这里？躯体上我们是但我们之间有任何的沟通吗？我们是否有一同去观察我们共同的因素？我们是否都看到，不仅在知性上口头上，而是真实地看到事实 - 事实。这个麦克风是一个事实。我们能不能看到我们本身的事实只要你去托付，执著，被捆绑于某个事物一个人，一个信念，一个概念，肯定就会有腐败？无论你是一个马克思主义者列宁主义，毛泽东或最新的大师或执著任何特定的系统，你肯定就有腐败。我们是否认为那是一个事实？如果我托付于我是一个印度教徒的想法看看什么会发生。或者，如果你致力成为一个天主教徒，新教徒，佛教徒或附属于某些教派，某些神学或民主的概念你被捆缚，所以你不能自由地考察。而你却应该要有自由。而权威特别是在思想，心，和脑的世界里就是去跟随某人去接受某些神学或理论概念来自马克思，等等，或某些亚洲或印度的思想家。如果你接受和在思想上遵守它在行动上依循它，等等这就是权威和腐败的根本。我们一同看到了吗？不只在理智上看到它因为我已仔细地诠释了它在口头上，它非常清楚但要去实践去看清这个执著的后果它是如何将这个世界分裂成一片混乱。而有没有可能去成为自己的明灯不用他人的明灯？因为我们的大脑已经被训练和演变已经接受权威。不仅是外在的法律权威那是必要的也包括这个权威，心理的权威所谓的精神权威。我们已经成为这个权威的奴隶。因此，我们被控制，塑造，串谋这些权威说：'我们知道，我们已取得成就我们会告诉你应该怎么做，请跟随我们。’ '我们会带你到天堂去，从你的罪恶中打救你' 还有那些世间的形形色色勾当。
28:48	And such a mind, committed, can never be free. And without freedom you can never find out what truth is. So could we, in listening to this obvious fact, because we cannot, we feel, stand by ourselves, we always want to lean on somebody, whether it is the husband or the wife, whether it is your girlfriend or boyfriend, or boyfriend and another boyfriend, we think, by leaning, seeking comfort from another, our brains have depended on the authority of the spirit. Please, do pay a little attention to this if you are serious. And so our brains have been conditioned to accept spiritual authority – the priest, the guru, the man who says, ‘I am enlightened, so I will lead you to that’. A man who is enlightened, when he says he is enlightened, he is not, because enlightenment is not a thing to be experienced, it is a state of mind, and has gone beyond all thought. We will go into that when we talk later on about meditation, and so on.	而这样的心承担托付的心，永远都不能自由。而如果没有自由，你将永远无法找到真理。因此，我们能不能在听到这明显的事实后因为我们不能，我们觉得自己是孤立的我们总是想依靠别人无论是丈夫或妻子无论是你的女朋友或男朋友或这个男友和另一个男友我们朝思暮想去依靠，去寻求他人的安慰我们的大脑一直以来都在依赖精神权威。如果你是认真的，请稍微注意这一点。因此，我们的大脑已经被调教去接受精神权威传教士，大师，那个说... '我已经开悟，所以我会令你开悟’的人。一个开悟的人当他自称已经开悟，他就不是真的因为开悟不是一种可以去经验的东西它是一种心的状态，经已超越所有的念头。迟一些，当我们谈到关于冥想禅修时，我们将讨论这个。
31:21	So can the mind, your brain, which has been trained to accept authority, and therefore its own particular discipline, can that brain immediately free itself from that authority, not the authority of law, not the authority of the policeman. You may disagree with the policeman, but there is the common, supposed to be a common protector, and so on. The law that you must keep to the right in these countries, and in England keep to the left, and so on. Now, can you, in listening, see the consequences of accepting authority outside: the authority of God – you understand? – the God who has been invented by thought, and the authority of the worldwide priesthood which says, ‘I will help you to attain, help you to reach’. You are following all this? Because when you accept such authority, you must invariably bring about disorder, not only disorder in yourself, but also the disorder that brings about different authorities: the Islamic authorities, the Buddhist authorities, and so on. They are all at each other. As one very famous guru told me, ‘I began with two disciples, now I have got 10,000 disciples’. You understand, sirs, all this?	所以，你的心，你的大脑能不能在被训练去接受权威接受其本身特殊的纪律之后这个脑能不能立即摆脱这个权威它不是法律的权威，不是警察的权威。你可以不同意那些警察但我们却有共同的，所谓的共同保护者，等等... 在这些国家里，你必须遵守在右侧行驶的法律而在英国却必须在左侧行驶，等等。现在，你能不能在聆听时看清接受外在权威的后果：上帝的权威 - 你明白吗？念头所发明的上帝和全球圣职组织的权威，他们声称... '我会帮你实现，帮你达成？你跟进这一切吗？因为当你接受了这种权威你肯定会带来混乱不仅你本身的混乱，而且还有产生不同权威的混乱：伊斯兰权威佛教权威，（笑声）等等。他们都在针锋相对。正如一位非常有名的大师告诉我... '我从两个弟子开始，现在我有一万个门徒？你明白，各位，这一切吗？
34:17	So when there is the acceptance of psychological, so-called spiritual, the authority of the spirit, the inwardness, then there must be disorder, because it brings conflict in yourself. You may say, ‘I accept that authority because it pleases me, it gives me help, it gives me a sense of protection’. So you are depending on another, and when you depend on another, the consequence is fear, division, and all the conflicts that go on between what you are and what you should be. Right? So the mind – including the brain – so the mind has lived in this pattern which is in the pattern of disorder. Look at your own minds, I don’t have to... Look at your own mind, how disorderly it is. Disorder means conflict, conflict between what is going on, the reactions, the responses, the reflexes, and the authority, the sanctions, the so-called illuminatory dictatorship, and the fact of what you are – the conflict, which is always the desire to become something. Right?	因此，当我们去接受心理的，所谓精神的灵性的，内在的权威之后，肯定会有混乱，因为它带来了你本身的冲突。你可能会说 '我接受那个权威，因为它使我喜悦它给我帮助，它给我一种受到保护的感觉？那么，你是依靠他人而当你依靠他人时，其后果是恐惧分裂，以及所有不停的冲突在如是的你，和应有的你之间的冲突。对不对？所以心 - 包括大脑所以心总是在这种模式中生活在混乱的模式中生活。看看你自己的心，我不必... 看看你自己的心，它是多么的混乱。混乱意味着冲突当下的事物之间的冲突反应，回应，反射和权威，制裁所谓的光明专政和你本质的事实 - 冲突它始终是渴望去转变形成的欲望。对不对？
36:57	So the brain has lived in this disorder, going from one guru to another; if you can’t find enlightenment here, you go off to Japan or India, and that is the latest racket. Sir, truth is where you are, not in India, not in any other country, or any other people. It is where you are, and where you are with all your troubles, worries, depressions, and the miseries. You have to finish with them and go beyond. Nobody on earth can give you that – freedom from sorrow, freedom from anxiety. It is only you that can do it. So it is vain and useless to go off to various countries, seeking various spiritual authorities and living in their concentration camp, which is called ashramas, this is the game we have all played for millennia. This is not something new. For 2,000 years the priests of the Western world played this game. And in India they have been much longer at this. So this is the cause of our conflict because we are looking to another. And can you, as you are listening, as we are thinking together, taking the journey, walking over the same path, not my path, your path – the path of observation, can you see what your mind, your brain has become, and end this sense of spiritual authority immediately, so that you, who are humanity – you are humanity, you are not an individual, because you go through the same door of anxiety, misery, uncertainty, fear, pleasure, sorrow, as everybody in the world does, so you are humanity, you are the world, and your brain is the world. And if you see immediately the truth of this fact, that conflict, in essence, comes when you are accepting authority, spiritual authority from another. And this conflict arises not only from that, but from being incapable of observing actually what is going on within yourself, without any distortion, without any judgement, just to watch it. Because we must live in order. Order is absolutely essential. There is no relative order. There is only order or disorder. You understand what we have been saying? Either there is complete order, totally, or there is only disorder. It isn’t something in between the two. What is in between the two is disorder.	因此，大脑一直生活在这混乱之中从跟随一个大师转去追随另一个如果你不能在这里找到启示，你会去日本或印度而那是最新的球拍。先生，真理就在你那里不在印度，不在其他任何国家，或任何人。它在你那里在你的一切烦恼，忧虑沮丧，和苦难里。你必须了结以及超越它们。地球上没有人可以给你那个摆脱悲伤，焦虑的自由。只有你本身能做到这一点。所以，那将是徒劳无功，如果你去周游列国去寻求各种精神权威去生活在他们称为修行中心的集中营中这是我们玩了几千年的游戏。它并不是什么新东西。西方世界的传教士玩了这个游戏两千年。而在印度，他们已经玩了更长的时间。因此，这是我们冲突的原因因为我们总是往他处寻找。而你能不能，在你聆听时，在我们共同思考时踏上旅程，踩着相同的道路不是我的道路，是你的道路，观察的道路你能不能看到你的心，你的大脑已变成什么地步能不能立即结束这种精神权威的错觉让作为人类的你你是人类，你不是个人因为你穿过相同的焦虑，痛苦之门穿过不确定性，恐惧，快感，悲伤之门，正如世界上每个人一样所以你是人类，你是世界，你的大脑是世界。如果你立即看到了这一事实的真相那个冲突，在本质上来自你对权威的接受接受来自他人的精神权威。而这个冲突的产生，不仅是因为这而已也因为你不能如实地观察发生在自己身上的事物毫无扭曲，不加任何判断，只是直观而已。因为我们必须生活在秩序中。秩序是绝对必要的。相对的秩序是不存在的。只有秩序，或混乱。你明白我们一直在说什么吗？只有全面完整的秩序或是混乱。没有处于在两者之间的东西。处于在两者之间的还是混乱。
42:13	So we must find out what is order. First of all, to find out what is absolute order. There is such a thing as absolute order because the cosmos... The cosmos means order. The universe is in order. But we human beings live in disorder. Nature is in order, but when man interferes with nature, he brings disorder because in himself he is in disorder. Right, sirs?	因此，我们必须找出什么是秩序。首先要找出什么是绝对秩序。确有这样一个绝对秩序因为宇宙... 宇宙的意思是秩序。有序的天地。但是，我们人类却生活在混乱中。自然是有序的。但当人类去干扰自然时他带来了混乱，因为他本身是紊乱无序的。对不对，各位？
43:39	So what is order? Is it the end of conflict? Go slowly. We will go into it very carefully, step by step. Please, you are not following me, the speaker. You are observing your own structure of yourself. The word ‘structure’ there means movement. Movement of yourself, because you are a living entity. You can see something dead, but if you are a living thing, it is a movement. And this movement of life is disorder. We may have occasionally some kind of peace, quietness, but the quietness, the peace and the silence that is cultivated by thought through so-called meditation or going off, doing all kinds of tricks, is not silence, peace.	那么，什么是秩序？它是不是冲突的结束？慢慢来。我们将一步一步，非常谨慎地去探讨它。拜托，你不是在跟随我这个发言者。你是在观察你本身的结构。 '结构'这个词是指运动。你本身的运动因为你是一个活的物体。你能看到某些死物但如果你是一个生物，你就是一种运动。而这生命的运动是混乱的。偶尔，我们可能会有些和平，宁静但这种宁静，和平和沉默是由念头，通过所谓的冥想，培养出来的或者失控，做出各种花样，那都不是寂静，祥和。
45:21	So we are now thinking together – I mean thinking together. I am not telling you what order is, which means you must live this way, that way, the other way. Thinking together to find out for ourselves whether there is an absolute order. Or must man everlastingly live in disorder? So disorder and order cannot go together. A disordered mind cannot find order. That is simple. So we must find out what brings about disorder in us. Right? Not try to find out what is order. It is like a blind, ignorant man trying to find out heaven. I mean blind man in the sense, an ignorant man. He must be free of ignorance, first. So a disordered mind can never find what is absolute order. Now, what causes disorder? As we said the other day, when there is a cause, there must be an end to it. That is a law. Right? I don’t know if you see that. Where there is a beginning, there must be an ending. If there is cause for a physical pain – right? – it can be ended, either in death, or there is a cure for it. If you have a bad toothache, the cause is infection, and that infection which is causing pain can be ended. Right? So there must be a cause for disorder. You are following all this? Right? Are we together at least a little bit, for a little while? Right? Andiamo? Va bene.	因此，我们现在要一同思考 - 我是指共同思考。我不是要告诉你什么是秩序那是指示你去这样活，那样活，或以其他方式去过活。共同思考是自己本身去找出来是否有一种绝对秩序。或者人类必须永远生活在混乱中？所以混乱与秩序不能共存。一个混乱的心里，不能找到秩序。这很简单。因此，我们必须找出是什么带给我们混乱。对不对？不要试图去找出什么是秩序。它就像一个无知的盲人，试图去找出天堂在哪里。我所说的盲人，是指无知的人。他首先必须摆脱无知。因此，一个混乱的心，永远无法了解什么是绝对秩序。现在，是什么原因造成混乱？正如我们日前所说当有了一个原因，就必定有它的了结。这是一个规律。对不对？我不知道你是否看到了。哪里有开始，那里就有结束。如果有造成身体疼痛的原因 - 对不对？它就可以被终结，或者死亡，或者治愈它。如果你有一个很糟的牙痛它的原因是感染这造成疼痛的感染，可以被了结。对不对？所以必须要有一个造成混乱的原因... 你正在跟进这一切吗？对不对？我们有没有，至少一点点，一阵子，在一同思考？对不对？ Undiyama？很好。
48:41	We are saying there must be a cause for this disorder. What is the cause? Are there several causes for disorder in our life, or there is only one factor that brings about disorder? You are understanding my question? not my question, your question. First of all, are we aware that we live in disorder? I think that is fairly clear. We are. We may have patches of sunlight, but most of the day we live, as we are doing now, with rain and clouds. So we are not talking about patches of order, which are really the forgetfulness of disorder. So what is the cause of it? Or are there several causes? There must be disorder when there is contradiction, not only in your action, which is not only in your thought – in your behaviour. Contradiction – saying one thing and doing another. Obviously. And there must be disorder as long as we are conforming. Right? Conforming to an idea, to an ideal, to an image which has been created by another. All right? Which is: as long as there is contradiction in ourselves, between action and the fact, between what we think and what we do. Right? That is: as long as man, mind is trying to change ‘what is’ into ‘what should be’, there must be disorder. The totalitarian Communist world have their theoreticians, according to Marx and Engles and Lenin and Stalin – all that, and have created a concept, an ideological world, and the people there, in their authority, in their power, are shaping man to conform to that. You are following? This is what all religions have done. There is not much difference perhaps, there is a certain difference between the totalitarian world and the religious world and the fascists. They are all following the same path, perhaps mildly, gently, forcefully, aggressively, threatening, but it is the same direction.	我们说，必须要有一个造成混乱的原因。那个原因是什么？我们混乱的生活是不是有多种原因或者只有一个带来混乱的因素？你理解我的问题吗？不是我的问题，是你的问题。首先，我们是否察觉自己生活在混乱中？我认为这是相当明显的。我们是。我们可能会拥有片刻片刻的阳光但我们活着的大部分时候，正如我们的现况一样是下雨和多云。因此，我们要谈的不是片刻的秩序那其实是混乱的健忘所赐。那么，什么是它的原因呢？或者是有几个原因？当我们有了矛盾，就肯定会有混乱不仅是你行动的矛盾就是不仅是你念头的矛盾 - 你行为的矛盾。矛盾，说一套，做一套。很明显。而只要我们去顺应，我们就有混乱。对不对？顺应一个理念，一个理想顺应一个他人创建的形像。好吧？那就是：只要有矛盾在我们自己的行动和事实之间在我们所想与我们所做之间。对不对？就是：只要人类，心试图去把'如是'改变成'应该是' 就肯定会有混乱。极权的共产主义世界有他们自己的理论家根据马克思，恩格斯，列宁和斯大林，所有那些理论他们创建了一个概念一个理念世界而那些在他们权威下的人民被他们用权力去塑造成符合那些理念的人。你在跟进吗？这是所有宗教的做法。其中没有太大的区别或许有某些的不同在极权主义世界，和宗教世界，和法西斯分子之间。他们却是遵循同样的路径也许是温和的，轻柔的，强行的具侵略性，具威胁性，但却是同一方向。
53:14	So is that the root of this cause of disorder? Please, go slowly, don’t immediately say, ‘That is’. Think it out. Or there must be disorder as long as thought dominates our actions. Because as we said, thought is the response of memory. That memory is the result of experience, knowledge stored up in the brain, in the cells. So thought is always limited because knowledge is always limited. There can be no complete knowledge. Right? Are you following all this? See what man has done. He knows probably deeply unconsciously that there can be no complete knowledge about anything, so he says, ‘God’ – whatever that is – ‘is omnipotent, omniscient’, and so on, so on, so on. So look what he has done: knowing his limitation, his knowledge must always be limited, he creates something which is total knowledge – omniscient – and struggles to reach that. You follow the game? You see what man is doing all the time. So we are saying, asking: is thought responsible for disorder? Please, this requires a great deal of thinking, don’t just say, yes or no.	所以，这是不是导致混乱的根源？请慢慢来，不要马上就说：'这是。' 好好去思考一下。或者，我们必定会有混乱只要念头在支配我们的行动。因为正如我们说过，念头是记忆的反应。那个记忆是经验，知识的结果储存在大脑中，细胞里。因此，念头总是有限的因为知识总是有限的。不可能有完整的知识。对不对？你在跟进这一切吗？看看人类到底做了什么。可能是毫不自觉地，他明白关于任何东西，都不会有完整的知识所以他说，'上帝' - 或其他什么神 '是无所不能，无所不知的'，等等，等等，等等。所以，看着他的所作所为：知道了自己的局限性，自己的知识总是有限的他创造了某个等于整体知识的东西 - 它无所不知然后挣扎去达到它。你跟进这个游戏吗？你看看人类一直以来在做着什么。所以我们说，我们问：念头是否需对造成混乱负责？拜托，这需要大量的思考，不要只是说，是或否。
55:47	Thought has created the opposite, not the fact, but the opposite. That is: I am unhappy, but I have known happiness at some period, and the remembrance of that is a contradiction to ‘what is’ – you are following this? Yes? I wonder. So thought has created the opposite, which is non-fact. What is fact is what is going on, what is happening. The fact is human beings are violent. That is a fact. But thought has said: I must achieve non-violence, which is the opposite of ‘what is’ – right? – so there is conflict. But if there is no opposite, there is only this, then you can deal with this. You are following? You can always deal with facts, but not with non-facts. I wonder if you see this. Am I making this too complex? Too abstract? No, it is too practical, I am afraid!	念头创造了相反的东西不是事实，而是恰恰相反。那就是：我不快乐但我在某个时期认识了快乐而我对它的记忆与‘如是’ 产生矛盾 - 你在跟进这些吗？是吗？我不知道。所以，念头创造了相反的，也就是非事实。什么是事实，就是说，什么正在继续，什么正在发生。事实上，人类是暴力。这是事实。但念头说，我必须变成非暴力这和‘如是’是相反的 - 对不对？所以有了冲突。但是，如果没有相反的只有这个，那么你就可以处理它。你在跟进吗？你总可以处理事实但却不能处理非事实。我不知道你有看到这一点吗。我是不是把它说得太复杂？过于抽象？不，这恐怕太切实啦！（众笑）
57:43	So is that the basic cause of our disorder? You follow? The cause is to become something, always trying to become. I am ignorant – I must know more. I don’t know enlightenment – I must achieve enlightenment. My mind is in conflict, chattering – I must make it quiet. It is the same principle as the clerk becoming the executive, the parish priest becoming the bishop, and the bishop becoming the cardinal, and the cardinal becoming the pope. You understand? The same principle. Is that the cause of our disorder? You see, we live in disorder, and then thought says, ‘I must live in order’. So it creates a pattern of order, a pattern of values which are order, a pattern of behaviour – you understand? Being in disorder, thought then creates what it thinks is order, and the conflict begins. So is that the cause of our daily existence in disorder? If that is the cause, it can be ended. Now just a minute. Follow it carefully, it can be ended. Your next question is: how? You are back again into the old principle of ‘tell me what to do’. You are following all this? Oh, for God’s sake, come on, sir! Right? One sees this fact that thought creates the opposite, and the opposite then becomes important in order to relieve the fact, to go beyond the fact. That is, I am violent – suppose, one is violent. It creates its opposite, because it thinks, by creating the opposite, through conflict, it can be free of violence. But conflict itself is violence. I wonder if you understand all this! Right? Can we go on?	所以，那是我们的混乱的根源吗？你跟进吗？其原因是去转变总是试图去形成。我很无知，我必须知道得更多。我不知道启示，我必须去完成启示。我的心有冲突，吵闹我必须使它安静。这是相同的原则当书记成为高管本堂司铎成为主教以及主教成为枢机主教以及枢机主教成为教皇。你明白吗？同样的原则。这是我们的混乱的原因吗？你看我们生活在混乱中然后念头说，'我必须生活在秩序中。’ 因此，它创造了一个秩序的模式价值的模式，也是秩序行为的模式 - 你明白吗？在混乱中的念头，创造了它自以为是的秩序因而冲突就开始了。所以，那是不是我们混乱的日常生活的原因？如果那是原因，它就可以被结束。现在只需一分钟。仔细地跟进它，它就可以被了结。你的下一个问题是：如何？你又再次回到老旧原则的... '告诉我该怎么办？你在跟进这一切吗？噢，看在上帝的份上，拜托先生！对不对？我们看到这个事实念头创造了相反的东西而这个反事实却变得很重要为了去缓解事实，去超越事实。也就是说，我是暴力的 - 假设我是暴力的。念头创造它的相反因为它认为通过创造相反通过冲突，就可以摆脱暴力。但冲突本身也是暴力。我不知道你是否明白这一切！对不对？我们能继续吗？
1:01:12	So, can the mind, which has lived in the pattern of opposites, which is the pattern of non-facts, that is, when there is violence, that is a fact, the non-violence is non-fact, the ideal is non-fact. So can the mind live, look, observe only the fact, without moving away from the fact? I wonder if you have understood this. That is, to move away means to suppress, to try to go beyond, to evade it, to analyse it, is moving away from this, from the fact of violence. Right? Are you doing it as we are talking? Or you are just being carried away by the words? So the brain has lived in this pattern of fact and non-fact – right? – and so created the conflict. When one sees the futility, the absurdity of this, then you are only left with fact. Right? Then how do you observe the fact? You are not getting tired? Can we go on? How do you observe the fact? That is, the fact is violence. We said violence is a state of contradiction, a state of following somebody, spiritually, philosophically, ideationally, psychologically, following somebody, and there is a division between you and that, the guru and you, and the clever guru says, ‘We are all one’. You follow? That is the game they play! So we are saying: can you observe the fact without any movement away from it? Right? Can we go on? So we are saying: how do you observe the fact? Are you giving a direction to the fact? You understand what I mean? Are you looking at the fact with a motive, which is to direct it – right? Please, all this requires tremendous attention.	所以：心能不能，长期生活在对立的模式里就是非事实的模式里也就是说，当有暴力行为是事实非暴力就是非事实理想就是非事实。所以心能不能生活，观看，只观察事实而已完全不离开事实？我不知道你是否理解这一点。也就是说，离开事实就是表示去压制试图去超越，逃避它，分析它去远离它，远离暴力的事实。对不对？当我们讲说时，你有这样做吗？还是你被这些语言弄得飘飘然？因此，大脑一直活在这个事实与非事实的模式里对不对？ - 因此造成冲突。当你看清它的不中用，它的荒谬那么你就只剩下事实了。对不对？那你要怎么去观察事实呢？你们不觉得累了吗？我们能继续吗？你要怎么去观察事实？也就是说，事实是暴力。我们说，暴力是一种矛盾的状态一种跟随他人的状况在精神上，哲学上，理念上，心理上去跟随某人，因而产生你和他之间的分割大师和你，而聪明的大师说：'我们是同一的？你跟进吗？这就是他们玩的游戏！因此，我们说：你能不能去观察事实而没有任何远离它的运动？对不对？我们能继续吗？因此，我们说：你要怎么去观察事实？你是否给事实指定一个方向？你明白我的意思吗？你是否心怀动机去观察事实那等于是去指挥它 - 对不对？拜托，这一切都需要极大的专注。
1:04:53	We are saying: how do you look at the fact? There is only fact. Right? Not its opposite. So the fact is all important, not how you translate the fact. Right? Because then the translator of the fact, he is translating according to his previous knowledge – right? and therefore when he translates the fact, he is moving away from the fact. Right? Are you all asleep? So, is there an observation without the translator, without the interpreter, without the observer? If there is a division between the translator of the fact, obviously, he creates conflict. You are following this? So, to end conflict, the translator is absent. Then there is only pure observation. When there is pure observation, the fact is not. I wonder if you see that. Vous avez compris? You understand? As long as the translator is doing something, he is creating the fact. But if the translator, the interpreter, the thinker, the observer, is not, the fact is non-existent. I’ll show you why. Are you interested in all this? No, no – do it! Otherwise it has no value, then it becomes an intellectual game.	我们说：你要怎么去看待这个事实？我们只有事实。对不对？没有相反的东西。所以只有事实是重要的：不是你怎样去诠释事实。对不对？因为那个事实的诠释者他是根据他以前的知识去诠释的 - 对不对？因此当他诠释事实时他越来越远离事实。对不对？你们都睡着了吗？那么，是否有一种没有诠释者的观察没有传述者，没有观察者的观察？如果有一个事实与诠释者之间的分割很明显，他制造冲突。你跟进吗？因此，为了结束冲突，诠释者不能存在。那时就只有无染的观察。有了无染的观察，事实即非如是。我不知道你是否看到了。你明白吗？你明白吗？只要有诠释者在操作，他就在创造事实。但是，如果诠释者，转述者，思考者，观察者不操作，事实就不存在。我会告诉你为什么。你对这一切感兴趣吗？不，不 - 去实践！否则它是没有任何价值的那时，它将成为一种智力游戏。
1:07:35	What is the fact? The fact is violence. I am taking that as an example. The fact is violence. What is violence? Imitation. Right? Conformity, comparison, anger, hate – right? – jealousy, fear, sorrow. Those are all facts. Depression, elation, sorrow – all that, is a fact. When you say it is a fact, what does that mean? Is it a fact because you have remembered that thing which is happening now, in the past – you follow what I am?.. You are following this? No, you are not. I am greedy now. The word ‘greed’, the word, is not the fact – right? Right? But by using the word ‘greed’ I have identified it because I have used that word previously. Right? The previous recognition of the fact, of what is happening, is what we call fact. Are you also working with me? So by naming it, you have recognised it. Right? And so you have placed it in the past. See what we have done.	什么是事实？事实是暴力。我是以它作为一个例子。事实是暴力。什么是暴力？模仿。对不对？顺应，比较，愤怒，仇恨 - 对不对？嫉妒，恐惧，悲伤。这些都是事实。抑郁，兴高采烈悲伤，所有这一切，是事实。当你说这是事实，它是什么意思呢？这是事实，是因为你记得这个现在发生的事物，曾经在过去发生过 - 你跟进我所讲... 你有在跟进吗？不，你没有。我现在很贪心。 '贪'这个字，这个字，并非事实 - 对不对？对不对？但是，应用了‘贪’这个字，我就鉴定了它因为我之前也应用过这个字。对不对？用以前的认识来对当下发生的事物作出的识别就是我们所说的事实。你有没有和我一同努力？因此，通过为它命名，你就识别了它。对不对？因此，你已经把它放在过去。看看我们做了什么。
1:09:59	Take a very simple example: one is angry. At the moment of anger there is no recognition as anger. There is only the reflex to it, to a hurt, to whatever it is. A reaction. At the moment of reaction there is no sense of ‘By Jove, I am angry’. It only takes place a second or two later. Why? Because the mind, thought, has recognised the fact according to the past remembrance. Right? So it is dealing with ‘what is’ in terms of the past – right? – which then creates conflict. Are you following this? So is there an observation without the word, without remembering this is violence? You understand? Vous avez compris? The moment the process of recognition, thought, begins, it becomes non-fact. Right? Is this too difficult? It is fairly simple isn’t it? I am angry – I have never been, but I am angry – and at the moment of anger there is only this adrenaline active. Then a few seconds later thought says, ‘I have been angry’, which is the recognition of that which has happened in terms of the past. Right? Now, therefore the past and the present are in conflict. So can you... So can you observe without the word, can you observe without the translator, the thinker who says, ‘I remember that, it has happened again’? That which is happening has never happened again. I wonder if you see that. It is only the remembrance of that, from that you say it has happened again. This is too much for you!	用一个很简单的例子：我在生气。在愤怒的时刻，没有愤怒的识别。只有它的反射，伤痛的反射，任何的反射。一个反应。在反应之时，并没有'天哪，我很生气'的意识。它是在一两秒之后才生起的。为什么呢？因为大脑，念头，去识别这个事实根据过去的记忆来识别它。对不对？因此，它是引用过去的知识来处理'如是' - 对不对？因而造成冲突。你跟进吗？那么，有没有一个不牵涉文字的观察不识别暴力的观察？你明白吗？你明白吗？一旦识别的过程，念头，开始运作，它就成为非事实。对不对？这是不是太难了？这是相当简单的，不是吗？我很生气我从来没有，但我很生气而在愤怒的时刻只有肾上腺素活跃。然后，几秒钟后，念头说，'我一直在生气’ 这就是识别根据过去对现在发生的事所作出的识别。对不对？现在，因此过去和当下就发生冲突。所以，你能不能... 所以，你能不能不牵涉文字地去观察你能不能没有诠释者地去观察没有思考者去说，'我记得，它又发生了'？当下正在发生的事情从没再次发生。我不知道你是否看到了。那只是某个回忆根据它你说这个再次发生。这对你太难太多了！（众笑）
1:13:26	So the pattern, which the mind, the brain, and so the thought, has set, has lived in this conflict from time immemorial. And we are saying, the cause of it is this. And where there is a cause, it can be ended. The cause is the division between the actual happening and what it should not happen, the ideal. So the ideal is non-fact, always. Only what is actually happening. The actual happening is my anxiety, my fear, my desperate loneliness. And when there is observation of that loneliness, the word says, I know what it means to have been lonely because I have known it in the past. So the past is in conflict with the present. You understand this? So is there an observation without the past? Of course, there can be. Then the fact is not. It is the translator, the thinker, the interpreter, the observer, who is creating the fact. I wonder if you see this. You understand? The fact is I am angry. The moment I smother it with a lot of words and ideas, I give it importance, I strengthen it. The moment I cease to give the past history to it it withers away – you understand? Go to it, try it. Do it, sir!	所以这个心的生活模式由大脑和念头所设的模式从远古至今，一直充满冲突。而我们说，它的原因就是这个。而且，哪里有原因，它就可以被了结。其原因是那个分别实际情况与不应该发生的，理想情况的分割。因此，理想永远都是非事实。事实只有真正发生的事情。实际发生的事情是我的焦虑我的恐惧，我绝望的孤独。而当我们去观察那个孤独这个词说，我知道曾经孤独是什么意思因为我在过去已经知道它了。因此，过去和现在产生冲突。你明白吗？那么，有没有一个不牵涉过去的观察？当然有可能。那时，事实就并非如是了。那是诠释者，思考者传述者，观察者去创造了事实。我不知道你是否看到这一点。你明白吗？事实是，我很生气。一旦我用大量的文字和理念去扼杀它我就赋予它重要性，加强它的重要性。一旦我停止把过去的历史赋予它它就凋残消失了 - 你明白吗？检验它，尝试它。去实践，先生！
1:16:00	So we are saying: the cause of disorder is this conflict between what is taking place, going on, and what should be. If there were no opposite, non-violence – you follow? – I then have to deal with it, the thing as is. I wonder if you are moving. You understand this? So we are saying: man has lived in disorder, and he has looked for somebody else, an outside agency, to clear up this disorder, both politically, economically, and religiously, so-called spiritually. The moment he does that he has created the division. Right? Where there is division there must be conflict: the Jew and the Arab, the Muslim and the Hindu, the Christian and the not-Christian. So there is only fact and not non-fact. Quelle heure est il?	因此我们说：混乱的原因是这个冲突在真正继续发生，与应该发生的事情之间的冲突。如果没有相反的，非暴力的 - 你跟进吗？那么，我就必须处理它，实际的情况。我不知道你是否在进展。你明白这些吗？因此我们说：人一直生活在混乱中他曾经去找过他人外在的媒介，来消除这个混乱在政治上，经济和宗教上，所谓的精神上。当他去做的时候，他制造了分割。对不对？哪里有分割，那里就有冲突犹太人和阿拉伯人，穆斯林和印度教徒基督教徒和异教徒。因此，只有事实，而没有非事实。现在是什么时候了？
1:17:50	We have got three more talks: Tuesday, Thursday, and next Sunday. And we have to deal with a great many more things still. We have to go together, think together, to find out if man can ever be free of fear, completely free of fear, both the fear of the world, and fear of what is happening – fear, inside. And also one has to go into the question of this very complex problem of pleasure. And the still more complex problem of death and the ending of sorrow. And also we have to go into, talk over together, the meaning of meditation. So we have three more talks, and we will go into all this in as much detail as possible.	我们还有三次讲座星期二，星期四和下个星期日。而我们还须要处理很多很多的事情。我们必须一同进入，一同思考去找出人类是否能够摆脱恐惧完全摆脱恐惧无论是面对世界的恐惧和面对当下事物的恐惧，内心的恐惧。而且我们也必须去研究这个问题这个十分复杂的快感问题。还有更复杂的死亡问题和悲哀的结束。同时，我们也必须进入，一同去探讨禅修的意义。因此，我们还有三次的讲座我们将尽可能把所有这些探讨得一清二楚。
1:19:21	Finished, sirs.	完毕，各位。